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Topic: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2011-07-23 01:58:14 and read 35158 times.

I recently had the great opportunity to explore some of the CVG archives thanks to a family friend and learned many fascinating aspects about it's history and development. One of the things that struck me the most though were the plane crashes that occurred at CVG throughout the years. I had known about the Air Canada flight 797 emergency landing but was surprised to learn of these other major crashes that occurred:

-
January 12, 1955; TWA Martin 2-0-2 flight from the then "Boone County Airport" to Cleveland; Collided with a privately owned DC-3 shortly after take-off killing all passengers and crew on both aircraft totaling 15 fatalities.

-
American Airlines flight 383: November 8, 1965 was a NYC-CVG flight on a 727-123; The aircraft crashed into a hillside on final approach to the airport killing 58 out the 62 people on board.

-
TWA flight 159: November 6, 1967 was a NYC-CVG-LAX flight on a 707; Crashed after an attempt to abort take-off after having clipped a Delta DC-9 which was reported to have cleared the runway but hadn't. 1 passenger was killed. Just 14 days later.....

-
TWA flight 128: November 20, 1967 was a LAX-CVG-PIT-BOS flight on a Convair 880; The aircraft struck trees and crashed short of the runway after being cleared for the final approach, killing 70 of the 82 passengers and crew aboard. A close friend of the family's grandparents were actually killed in this crash and there is apparently a memorial near the airport for this crash as well as the American one.



The flight 383 and 128 crashes were particularly major news at the time and I find it interesting all these big accidents that devastated and shocked the community have now been all but forgotten. I'm curious, are there perhaps other major accidents since forgotten that have occurred at your local airport? Feel free to comment and offer up any additional information you might have.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: MEA-707
Posted 2011-07-23 02:28:48 and read 35097 times.

Of course only a few people will remember all the hundreds of major accidents, just like that most posters here probably have forgotten most ship and train accidents. A major factor is if Air Crash Investigations on National Geographic did something about it. These things get repeated daily and everybody in bars and on birthday parties talk about crashes like Alaska 261.
It also really depends on who were on board. The Afriqiyah A-330 crash of May 2010 was major news in the Netherlands as 70 Dutch were on board, but elsewhere or on Airliners.net it didn't get one percent of the attention of the Air France A-330.
Older major crashes involving the Netherlands about which you hardly hear people in third countries are the DC-8s or Martinair on a hadj charter in 1974 and of Surinam Airways in 1989. Both killed about 190 people.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2011-07-23 06:07:34 and read 34719 times.

I think about the AA 727 and TWA 880 crashes every time I approach CVG out of the north. How close are the crash sites to one another?

Some crashes that have been almost forgotten do get attention decades later. A memorial will be dedicated next month to the victims of a Northwest Airlines Martin 202 crash near MSP in March, 1950.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: glbltrvlr
Posted 2011-07-23 07:14:41 and read 34543 times.

Don't forget TWA 260 out of ABQ. One of the few if only site where the public can still view the wreckage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_260

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: sshd
Posted 2011-07-23 07:34:09 and read 34394 times.

The latest big crash in Spain was Spanair flight JK5022 MAD-LPA. 2008.
Aircraft: MD82.
Fatalities: 154

Still under investigation, but seemed that the crew took off without flaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanair_Flight_5022

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Glareskin
Posted 2011-07-23 07:38:20 and read 34355 times.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):
The Afriqiyah A-330 crash of May 2010 was major news in the Netherlands as 70 Dutch were on board

But even more so because one little boy (Dutch) survived the crash which was remarkable if you saw the debris left on the crash site.
How about the Tenerife crash, still the most lethal in history I think? Is it just me because there was a KL 747 involved or is this one of the most remarkable crashes of all times?

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2011-07-23 07:53:04 and read 34300 times.

Yes, that tragidy involved a KL B-742 and a PA B-741. The only survivors were aboard the PA B-747.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: MEA-707
Posted 2011-07-23 08:15:45 and read 34211 times.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 5):
How about the Tenerife crash

I mentioned three relatively forgotten Dutch crashes as that's what the OP was asking for. The Tenerife one is not exactly 'forgotten' as it is still discussed by professionalists and hobbyists.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2011-07-23 08:52:15 and read 34106 times.

Allegheny Flight 853 is another is another crash you seldom hear about any more. It happened on September 9, 1969 when an Allegheny DC-9 & a Piper Cherokee collided over Indiana killing everyone aboard both flights.

LoneStarMike

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: dstc47
Posted 2011-07-23 09:12:44 and read 33987 times.

The Staines Trident crash is beginning to slip from memory, despite the many controversial aspects associated with it.

First aircraft accident where I knew some of the persons killed.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2011-07-23 09:46:30 and read 33884 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
Feel free to comment and offer up any additional information you might have.

Well, maybe this is not exactly what you are expecting as additional information, but regarding the subject of how easily we can forgot major air disasters, I can tell you that I have a personal database, where I have listed all the major Jet crashes since the year 1973 ( when I was born ), with the requirement to enter in the database of the aircraft being a Civilian jet ( freighter or pax service ), and being written off as a consequence of the crash. So far, I have listed 690 crashes, with an average of 18 crashes per year / 1,5 crash every month between 1973 and today. Considering this numbers, you can see that it is basically impossible to remember every crash in the aviation history, even if you exclude all the crashes that involve props / turboprops and you put a limit in the timeline like me. I never checked the number of crashes between the first Comet crashed and the first crash of my database in 1973, but I'm pretty sure there were a lot of civilian aircraft that suffer big accidents in that period too.


Rgds.

G.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: jonathanxxxx
Posted 2011-07-23 09:49:31 and read 33881 times.

Personally I havent seen much talk about the AA crash in Cali in 1995.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: bmacleod
Posted 2011-07-23 09:55:58 and read 33868 times.

As a Canadian, it surprises me not much is told about the 1978 PWA (Pacific Western) crash in BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific...n_Airlines#Incidents_and_accidents

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: TSS
Posted 2011-07-23 10:45:39 and read 33400 times.

There was Galaxy Airlines Flight 203 out of RNO on January 21, 1985, which resulted in the deaths of 70 of the 71 people on board. The sole survivor of that crash was found still strapped to his seat sitting upright in the middle of Virginia Street, Reno's main North-South thoroughfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_Airlines_Flight_203

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-07-23 10:55:07 and read 33253 times.

Also forgotten was the TW 529 Constellation crash in a corn field in Claredon Hills, IL in 1961. I had relatives living across the street from the corn field that it crashed into. Supposedly a bolt came out of the elevator boost assembly causing loss of control. It had departed MDW just a few minutes earlier. The trip was BOS-IDL-PIT-MDW-LAS.

The area around the crash site was developed, but nothing was built on the site itself. There isn't a memorial, but the circle indicates ground zero. The Claredon Hills fire department back then was only a volunteer fire department and they didn't have enough equipment to handle the disaster. There were quite a number of children on this flight traveling with their parents. My aunt that lived near by said that quite a few people were arrested for looting valuables from the dead and their luggage. Just despicable.


Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Jamake1
Posted 2011-07-23 11:01:57 and read 33170 times.

I recently came across these photos of the SAS DC-8 that ditched in Santa Monica bay while attempting to land at LAX in 1969. 15 passengers and crew were killed in the accident, however 30 survived.

http://framework.latimes.com/2011/05/10/sas-jetliner-crashes/#/0

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: edina
Posted 2011-07-23 11:02:57 and read 33128 times.

UT772.......the 1989 bombing of a UTA DC10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTA_Flight_772

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: ozark1
Posted 2011-07-23 11:09:40 and read 33001 times.

You guys can help me on this one. I think AA's 727-100's were actually referred to as 727-023's? I know the 200's were 223's but it sure seems to me that i remember 023 being the number designated on the passenger safety information card.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: flymia
Posted 2011-07-23 11:26:04 and read 32707 times.

One that I did not even know about until about a year ago. Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 705 was a scheduled passenger flight operated on 12 February 1963 by a Boeing 720 aircraft which broke up in midair and crashed into The Everglades shortly after take-off from Miami International Airport in a severe thunderstorm. A midair break up that is some serious stuff right there.

Another one is National Airlines Flight 2511 which in January 6, 1960 crashed en-route from MIA to JFK/ Idlewild when a bomb exploded which was planted in the plane by Julian A. Frank, a lawyer from New York City. It is thought he did it to do a murder suicide. This flight should have been a loaded 707 but becaue of a cracked window they had to split the passengers between a DC-6 and Electra.

National Airlines Flight 967 another aircraft which is thought to have gone down from a bomb mid flights on a MIA-TPA-MSY route, lost in the Gulf.

It is crazy how often accidents happened.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2011-07-23 11:27:47 and read 32698 times.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):
Of course only a few people will remember all the hundreds of major accidents, just like that most posters here probably have forgotten most ship and train accidents.

It's not so much that I expect everyone to remember, I realize there are hundred of fatal crashes throughout history. I suppose I was more surprised that it wasn't remembered more in the Cincinnati area. It's a mid-sized city so events like these really make an impression on the community and micro-fiche reels from the news papers show that it was front-page news for days, just surprised I hadn't heard about them sooner I guess.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 8):
Allegheny Flight 853 is another is another crash you seldom hear about any more.

Wow yeah hadn't heard of that one, at least it seems to have an entire website dedicated to it though, thanks for sharing!

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 2):
I think about the AA 727 and TWA 880 crashes every time I approach CVG out of the north. How close are the crash sites to one another?

I always do get curious when landing if that's the approach we'll take, hard not to if you're aware of these accidents, I suppose at the time that approach to CVG was considered fairly dangerous?

Quoting TSS (Reply 13):
The sole survivor of that crash was found still strapped to his seat sitting upright in the middle of Virginia Street, Reno's main North-South thoroughfare.

That's pretty incredible, sounds he cheated death.

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 3):
Don't forget TWA 260 out of ABQ. One of the few if only site where the public can still view the wreckage.

Reminds me of the Capital Airlines crash.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 15):
I recently came across these photos of the SAS DC-8 that ditched in Santa Monica bay while attempting to land at LAX in 1969.

Those pics look pretty epic, hard to believe more weren't killed.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: TripleDelta
Posted 2011-07-23 11:28:02 and read 32668 times.

There is also the mid-air collision above Vrbovec, Croatia back in 1976... until Überlingen in 2002, this was Europe's worst post-war collision: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Zagreb_mid-air_collision. Even today, its consequences and ramifications remain fresh within Croatian ATC...

[Edited 2011-07-23 11:36:56]

EDIT: I seem to be having some problems with posting the link...


[Edited 2011-07-23 11:38:20]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: notaxonrotax
Posted 2011-07-23 11:40:48 and read 32492 times.

A crash that gets very little attention, considering the lethal ending; is TAM 3054 at Congonhas!
"Air Crash Investigations" never made an episode on it, which is strange……….
It is such an interesting case, as it came down to weather, runway conditions, malfunctioning systems in the aircraft and pilot error / judgment.

As was said before, like them or hate those shows on Discovery Channel, they do make people remember certain crashes a lot more than others!

No Tax On Rotax

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-07-23 12:00:30 and read 32273 times.

Not typically a crash but I recently read about a NW DC-9 that made a precautionary landing in Colorado somewhere and ended up in a snow bank. The Captain forgot to depressurize the aircraft and took the crash axe to the L1 door. When he hit the door, the axe bounced back and hit him in the forehead putting a deep cut in his forehead. Then the F./O depressurized the aircraft and the door opened with ease.

Anyone know the details?

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BOAC911
Posted 2011-07-23 13:33:48 and read 31194 times.

A chartered Nationair DC-8 Stretch in Jeddah, around 1987 with pilgrimers, heading to West Africa (IIRC Nigeria or Chad?). Fire in the wheel well right after takeoff; cause was determined to be under-inflated tires. Fire burned so intensely that some passengers (IIRC I believe 6, two rows on the left side) fell out the fuselage. Aircraft crashed in the proximity of threshold, after turning around and trying to make an emergency landing. No survivors. Nationair went belly-up shortly thereafter.

[Edited 2011-07-23 13:34:22]

[Edited 2011-07-23 13:36:43]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: PillowTester
Posted 2011-07-23 14:05:47 and read 30819 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 14):
Also forgotten was the TW 529 Constellation crash in a corn field in Claredon Hills, IL in 1961. I had relatives living across the street from the corn field that it crashed into. Supposedly a bolt came out of the elevator boost assembly causing loss of control. It had departed MDW just a few minutes earlier. The trip was BOS-IDL-PIT-MDW-LAS.

The area around the crash site was developed, but nothing was built on the site itself. There isn't a memorial, but the circle indicates ground zero. The Claredon Hills fire department back then was only a volunteer fire department and they didn't have enough equipment to handle the disaster. There were quite a number of children on this flight traveling with their parents. My aunt that lived near by said that quite a few people were arrested for looting valuables from the dead and their luggage. Just despicable.

I live and am currently typing from just a block or so south of this accident site. Walk past it many times, you would never tell it was there except that all the streets end around this square block of wooded area.

I always try to find more information about this larger crash that happened right down my street but it's hard to come by. There is no memorial, and are there any photos?

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-23 14:29:25 and read 31278 times.

Anyone remember these?

Eastern 66, N8845E, at JFK on June 24, 1975
Eastetn 212 N8984E approach to CLT on Sep 11, 1974
American L-188 Electra approaching LGA in 1959
2 DC-9-10s lost in trainig accidents by Eastetn and Delta
Northeast plane aftet takeoff from LGA, right near Rikers Island.......maybe ON it.
And what about December 1, 1974? 2 727-200 (NW and TWA) in 2 seperate accidents near IAD and upstate New York.
National 727-200 flt 193, N4744 "Donna" accidently landing in Escambia Bay near PNS killing 3
Air Cal at SNA(?) in 1981

Hijackings of Septembet 12, 1970


Do I need 1 or 2 hands for all of Pan Am's 707 crashes?

[Edited 2011-07-23 14:33:11]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Jamake1
Posted 2011-07-23 15:14:28 and read 30831 times.

I've always been intrigued by the January 1, 1985 crash of Eastern Air Lines flight 980. The Boeing 727 was traveling from Asuncion to Miami, via stops at La Paz, Bolivia and Guayaquil, Ecuador. The aircraft impacted Mt. Illimani at the 19,000 ft level as it was making its approach into La Paz. The 33 passengers and crew were killed and their remains were never recovered. Greg Feith, the former NTSB investigator, led an expedition team to investigate the wreckage. The crash received very little media attention.




Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: flymia
Posted 2011-07-23 15:25:07 and read 31253 times.

One that is not known well but there is a pretty crazy picture of it on the database is TWA 553

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bob Garrard

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: abibus
Posted 2011-07-23 15:28:28 and read 31039 times.

What about the birgenair flight from Germany to the Dominican republic with a 757... Everybody killed in the 90's!

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-07-23 15:55:53 and read 30728 times.

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 17):
You guys can help me on this one. I think AA's 727-100's were actually referred to as 727-023's? I know the 200's were 223's but it sure seems to me that i remember 023 being the number designated on the passenger safety information card.

Correct. And NW's were 727-51s, Eastern's were 727-25s, Lufthansa's were 727-30s, etc. etc.

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 23):
A chartered Nationair DC-8 Stretch in Jeddah, around 1987 with pilgrimers, heading to West Africa (IIRC Nigeria or Chad?). Fire in the wheel well right after takeoff; cause was determined to be under-inflated tires. Fire burned so intensely that some passengers (IIRC I believe 6, two rows on the left side) fell out the fuselage. Aircraft crashed in the proximity of threshold, after turning around and trying to make an emergency landing. No survivors. Nationair went belly-up shortly thereafter.

That remains the worst accident to a Canadian aircraft in terms of the number of fatalities (261). It was being operated for Nigeria Airways. It was the DC-8-61 below, originally delivered to Eastern.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marc Hasenbein



The worst crash in Canada itself was a DC-8-63 being operated by US charter carrier Arrow Air, carrying US military personnel from CAI to Fort Campbell, KY with fuel stops at CGN and YQX. It crashed just after takeoff from YQX in December 1985, killing all 256 aboard. Don't think a definite cause was determined. Inadequate de-icing was considered one possibility.

That aircraft below 9 months before the crash. Coincidentally, it was also originally operated by Eastern. Same aircraft in second photo.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Den Pascoe
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Susumu Tokunaga



[Edited 2011-07-23 16:13:48]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: MarkATL
Posted 2011-07-23 16:06:22 and read 30610 times.

United Airlines Flight 585

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_585

Flight from DEN to COS. I remember this one because I used to run near that park when I was in the Army at Ft Carson. I was discharged about two weeks before the crash.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-23 16:08:28 and read 30510 times.

I remember that, and you re right, it received little media coverage. I thought the death toll was 29. Wasn t some Panamanian govt officials wife on board? This aircraft is actually in the a.net database.

And speaking of Eastern as was done in reply 29, the plane in reply 28 was also originally flown by Eastern.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 26):

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Tomassjc
Posted 2011-07-23 16:26:22 and read 30385 times.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 15):
I recently came across these photos of the SAS DC-8 that ditched in Santa Monica bay while attempting to land at LAX in 1969. 15 passengers and crew were killed in the accident, however 30 survived.

5 days later UA266 crashed into Santa Monica Bay. Lots of nightmares around that time for me, a 10 year old airplane enthusiast growing up in Manhattan Beach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_266

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: DariusBieber
Posted 2011-07-23 16:51:34 and read 30017 times.

Sadly, to the poor families of the victims of these unfortunate accidents, none of the Air Disasters would be forgotten. May all those who perish by aircraft catastrophe Rest in Peace, along with their families.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2011-07-23 16:52:48 and read 30019 times.

Air India 182 comes to mind as well. Though it seems it is still talked about in Canada every now and then, it seems the rest of the world has forgotten it! It has some importance as not only was it the worst modern terrorist attack originating on Canadian soil, it was also the first 747 to be bombed, followed by Pan Am 103 of course. My grandfather was actually the Captain that brought the flight to Montreal, and meet the out bound crew of that flight, before it was bombed. If I remember correctly, the Flight Engineer of 182 was to retire after that trip!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: HiJazzey
Posted 2011-07-23 17:05:21 and read 29940 times.

I think SV163 is one.
Absolutely horrible. You make it down to the ground safely only to be incinerated on the ground.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: multimark
Posted 2011-07-23 17:16:02 and read 29712 times.

I'm not sure you can say AI 182 is forgotten, it surfaces in the Canadian media very regularly.

More suitable would be two Canadian Pacific crashes:

CP 21 July 6 1965, DC-6B "Empress of Buenos Aires" enroute from YVR to Whitehorse. Tail blown off by a bomb in the lav., a/c crashed near 100 Mile House, BC, all 52 pax killed. Culprit never found. Unusual for the bomb aspect.

CP 301 July 22, 1962 Bristol Britannia "Empress of Lima" crashed at HNL on a go around after losing one engine. 27 of 40 pax killed. One of the few crashes I recall actually hapenning on the airfield at HNL.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Tan Flyr
Posted 2011-07-23 17:31:21 and read 29605 times.

Did anyhone mention"

The UA 737 from DCA to MDW in 70 or 71?
The PA 727 after T/O in a thunderstorm from MSY?
The UA DC8-61 on approach to PDFX, fuel starvation?
EA 401 Dec. 72 at MIA

I used to fly thru CVG on occasion and would also look at the terrain from mthe noth on approach. Grew up north of Cincy in the 60's and remember all 3, as well as the TWA north of Dayton.

IIRC, eventually the airport authority moved a lot of dirt and extended the area and runway where those crashes occured. But if IRRC, there was some sort of dog legged approach in those days over the Ohio river with a turn close to final. The terrrain gave some optical illusions as i recall also.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2011-07-23 17:37:02 and read 29488 times.

Quoting abibus (Reply 28):
What about the birgenair flight from Germany to the Dominican republic with a 757... Everybody killed in the 90's!

This was the subject of a recently shown episode of Air Disasters on the Smithsonian Channel here in the USA. It was a flight FROM DR to Germany. I believe this diaster was brought up as to the AF crash in the South Atlantic as it is believed the pitot tube blockage that was believed to be a contributing cause of the Brigenair flight may have been a factor in the AF crash.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-07-23 17:40:13 and read 29425 times.

Quoting multimark (Reply 36):
I'm not sure you can say AI 182 is forgotten, it surfaces in the Canadian media very regularly.

I"m willing to bet AI 182 has generated more pages of news coverage than any other airline accident involving Canada, considering the many years of investigations and court cases involving the accused bombers.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: PROSA
Posted 2011-07-23 17:47:59 and read 29357 times.

PSA 182 seems to be remembered much more vividly than AM 498, despite the similarities between the two crashes. It could be that the PSA death toll was higher, but my guess is that the dramatic photo of the PSA aircraft just before impact is a big reason why the crash is so remembered today. Of course there is a picture of the doomed AM aircraft, but it's more distant and less clear.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2011-07-23 18:30:46 and read 28900 times.

Quoting multimark (Reply 36):
I'm not sure you can say AI 182 is forgotten, it surfaces in the Canadian media very regularly.
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 34):
Though it seems it is still talked about in Canada every now and then, it seems the rest of the world has forgotten it!

Hence I said the rest of the world. It never makes an appearance in the news here in the states! I agree though, it is not as forgotten as a lot of them, but their are still many more visible crashes then 182!

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: timpdx
Posted 2011-07-23 18:46:46 and read 28771 times.

Kal 801. So many factors. Inop ils, weather, fatigue, training, difficult emergency response...a complex web of factors but not really talked about much. Its also the last pax 747 fatal crash, I believe.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2011-07-23 18:59:43 and read 28705 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 25):
Northeast plane aftet takeoff from LGA, right near Rikers Island.......maybe ON it.

This aircraft did crash right on Rikers Island. Some of the prisoners on the island assisted in rescuing the survivors, and their prison sentences were subsequently reversed.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 25):
Eastern 66, N8845E, at JFK on June 24, 1975

This accident received a lot of coverage in the 1970s, because it was one of the first crashes attributed to wind shear. National Geographic even had an article about it in 1977.

One of Airways Magazine's columnists (Tony Vasco) wrote a "tales of the ramp" column about the crash's aftermath about ten years ago. Mr. Vasco was a senior mechanic for EA at JFK, and was one of the first people to arrive at the crash site.

One very ugly anecdote Mr. Vasco shared about EA 66 involved a press photographer. The remains of the victims were placed in a row, and covered with plastic sheets, pending their transfer to the morgue. The "bulge" of one of the sheets was smaller than the other sheets' bulges, making it obvious that the remains of a child were under the sheet. The press photographer grabbed a doll, and tried to place it next to the child's remains, for the ultimate "tear jerker" photograph - a child holding a doll as she passed away. An NYPD officer saw what the photographer was doing, pulled out his service gun, pointed it at the photographer, and loudly said "start running!". The photographer left, without taking a picture.

To me, it's REPULSIVE, but not surprising, that anyone would do what the photographer tried to do. How would the photographer have felt if someone did something like that to the remains of one of his children?

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2011-07-23 19:16:08 and read 28516 times.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 43):
This accident received a lot of coverage in the 1970s, because it was one of the first crashes attributed to wind shear. National Geographic even had an article about it in 1977.

One of Airways Magazine's columnists (Tony Vasco) wrote a "tales of the ramp" column about the crash's aftermath about ten years ago. Mr. Vasco was a senior mechanic for EA at JFK, and was one of the first people to arrive at the crash site.

One very ugly anecdote Mr. Vasco shared about EA 66 involved a press photographer. The remains of the victims were placed in a row, and covered with plastic sheets, pending their transfer to the morgue. The "bulge" of one of the sheets was smaller than the other sheets' bulges, making it obvious that the remains of a child were under the sheet. The press photographer grabbed a doll, and tried to place it next to the child's remains, for the ultimate "tear jerker" photograph - a child holding a doll as she passed away. An NYPD officer saw what the photographer was doing, pulled out his service gun, pointed it at the photographer, and loudly said "start running!". The photographer left, without taking a picture.

To me, it's REPULSIVE, but not surprising, that anyone would do what the photographer tried to do. How would the photographer have felt if someone did something like that to the remains of one of his children?

I remember reading that story, and it made me sick.

I still can't believe the media after Alaska 261 went down. A reporter dressed like a priest in Seattle, so he could enter the family grief room at the airport. How low can you go?

A few crashes that seem to be forgotten that are on the top of my mind are:

The TWA crash outside of LAS, with Carol Lombard (crash is still out near Mt. Potossi)
The PSA 1771, a BAE 146 that went down in California after a gunman entered the cockpit and shot both pilots in the 1980's.
CO 1713, a DC-9 that crashed in DEN, upside down during a blizzard, and took forever to get the survivors out.
NW 255 in DTW. 1 sole survivor.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: moose135
Posted 2011-07-23 19:51:47 and read 28126 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
The flight 383 and 128 crashes were particularly major news at the time and I find it interesting all these big accidents that devastated and shocked the community have now been all but forgotten.

I found this web site memorial to the two flights:
http://flightmemorial.vpweb.com/default.html


Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 25):
Eastern 66, N8845E, at JFK on June 24, 1975

I remember that one well. That was on my 15th birthday, and I lived (and my parents still live) about 5 miles away, under the approach path the flight took.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BOAC911
Posted 2011-07-23 19:54:49 and read 28112 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 34):
it was also the first 747 to be bombed

Not quite true. There had been earlier bombings of 747s in the early 1970s, however they did not cause an immediate catastrophic disintegration of the air frame as in the case of the Air India 747 bombing:

*A spanking new Pan Am 747 at Cairo during the "Black September" hijackings in 1970.
*Also a bombing in July 1973 of a JAL 747 flying ORY-AMS-CPH-ANC-TYO.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-07-23 20:39:07 and read 27710 times.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 44):
I still can't believe the media after Alaska 261 went down. A reporter dressed like a priest in Seattle, so he could enter the family grief room at the airport. How low can you go?

Weren't there reports of a lawyer doing the same thing at DTW after the NW MD80 crash there? By dressing up as priest he gained access to the room where the deceased passengers families were being held.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: skyguyB727
Posted 2011-07-23 21:29:42 and read 27353 times.

When I was in junior high school, a North Central Convair 580 and an Air Wisconsin Twin Otter (IIRC) collided over Lake Winnebago in Wisconsin. There were no survivors. Classmates had airplane parts wash up in their backyards.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: flymia
Posted 2011-07-23 23:06:33 and read 26878 times.

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 37):
EA 401 Dec. 72 at MIA

Down here in Miami this crash is definetly not forgotten there was some anniversary not too long ago it was all over the local news and even in the paper. Also this was a very important crash for CRM.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2011-07-24 00:40:47 and read 26305 times.

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 37):
The UA DC8-61 on approach to PDFX, fuel starvation?

Well, *I* certainly have not forgotten that crash, because my family flew that flight the day before. In first class. (You'd know why that matters if you read the accident report...)

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: airport1970
Posted 2011-07-24 00:57:02 and read 26235 times.

Forgotten, but significant because it changed a city. 100 Citizens of Atlanta at once.

AF 007 June 3, 1962. Orly-Idlewild

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_007

"The Day Atlanta Stood Still"

http://www.gpb.org/day-atlanta-stood-still

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: ursh
Posted 2011-07-24 00:58:49 and read 25958 times.

http://www.southafrica.to/transport/...A-flights/1987/SAA-flight-295.php5

The SAA flight 295 Helderberg crash was a major one too. I was at that time in Johannesburg seeing some horrible pictures from SAA while I was still flying myself.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Archer
Posted 2011-07-24 01:04:11 and read 25903 times.

Also, AA Convair at ALBany NY in 1953.
Hit radio tower near airport. 28 died.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Trijetsonly
Posted 2011-07-24 01:35:04 and read 25660 times.

Very interesting thread.
I don't know whether anyone has posted this link before:

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/unusual.htm

This special link is about unusual forgotten accidents but on the website itself you will find "normal" forgotten accidents as well.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: MSYPI7185
Posted 2011-07-24 02:20:23 and read 25372 times.

Delta 9867 DC-8 at MSY
Crashed into a Hotel on 30 Mar 1967. Killing all 6 onboard the DC-8 and 13 in the hotel. IIRC the hotel was a Hilton hotel, I think it is on the same site that the current Airport Hilton is on. Delta flight was a crew training flight.

Eastern 304 DC-8 at MSY
Crashed into Lake Pontchartrain 25 Feb 1964 Killing all 58 on board. IIRC rtg was MEX-MSY-ATL-IAD-IDL. Evevator trim failure aircraft nosedived into Lake. From what I remember only the wings, engines and part of the tail section were recovered. The exact location of the fuselage is still not known. Every once in a great while you might hear a little something about it, but each time divers search the area nothing is found. The site is a grave and nothing will be done if it is ever located, but the exact location of the remains would still like to be known by local officials.

Many people do not know that there is a small memorial at the Garden of Memories Cemetary in Metairie, LA. Many of the people who work there do not know it exist. I was trying to find it one day and the only way I was able to find it was there was a lady who worked there for a very long time who was able to put me in the right place, but it was still difficult to find at first.

Avion Airways DC-3 at MSY
Crashed while attempting to land in fog 20 Mar 1969. Fatalities 16 of 27 on board. This one is never talked about.

While not at MSY a crash I have read about as well as heard about from my coworkers when I worked with Piedmont Airlines is the 727-100 crash at Henderson, NC. Crash happened on 19 July 1967 killing all 79 onboard after a mid-air collision with a Cessna 310 plus the 3 fatalities on the Cessna.

Another interesting thing while I was working for Piedmont. On 30 Oct 1959 a Piedmont Airlines DC-3 crashed on approach to CHO at Waynesborough, VA. 26 of the 27 passengers perished. One day I was checking in a pax at the MSY ticket counter and one of my coworkers asked me if I knew who the person was that I had just checked in. Of course I did not, but my coworker told me he was the only surviving pax from the CHO flight that had crashed. Apparently he flew in and out of MSY occasionally and my co-worker knew him because she used to work in our Res office in INT.

MD

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 1stfl94
Posted 2011-07-24 03:01:06 and read 25281 times.

Quoting timpdx (Reply 42):
Kal 801. So many factors. Inop ils, weather, fatigue, training, difficult emergency response...a complex web of factors but not really talked about much. Its also the last pax 747 fatal crash, I believe.

No it's not. There was the Singapore Airlines crash at Taipei in October 2000 and there China Airlines 742 that broke up during its final flight for CI.

In the UK no one ever seems to remember the Dan Air crash in Tenerife in 1980. This was the biggest loss of life on a British operated aircraft (146 dead)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan-Air_Flight_1008

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2011-07-24 05:06:25 and read 25129 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 47):
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 44):I still can't believe the media after Alaska 261 went down. A reporter dressed like a priest in Seattle, so he could enter the family grief room at the airport. How low can you go?
Weren't there reports of a lawyer doing the same thing at DTW after the NW MD80 crash there? By dressing up as priest he gained access to the room where the deceased passengers families were being held.

Yes.

The "priest" used the name "Father John Irish". He showed up again at DTW 1 1/2 years later, the night PA 103 went down (PA 103's final destination was DTW, and there were several prominent Detroiters on the flight), to try to hustle more clients.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-24 06:31:59 and read 24916 times.

Quoting flymia (Reply 18):

Well, I knew about the NW plane, but recently I read on here that a Braniff DC-6 went down in the everglades but I don't know the year. So that's 4 Everglades crashes. Anyone got info on this BN accident?

What about the DL Convair 880 lost at ATL 1960?

West Coast Airlines DC-9 near PDX, in service less than a week. It was their first pure jet aircraft, and it crashed before the second one got there!

The first TWA 800...I forget where and when......

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: IADCA
Posted 2011-07-24 06:51:27 and read 24852 times.

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 55):
On 30 Oct 1959 a Piedmont Airlines DC-3 crashed on approach to CHO at Waynesborough

Minor correction, but it's just "Waynesboro." Yes, yes, I know. More interestingly, you can hike up to the crash site fairly easily. The trail's not really well marked, but you can get there. Most of the big parts are gone, but you can definitely tell what it is.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: MEA-707
Posted 2011-07-24 07:54:48 and read 24649 times.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 44):
NW 255 in DTW. 1 sole survivor.
Quoting flymia (Reply 49):
Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 37):
EA 401 Dec. 72 at MIA
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 50):
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 50):
Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 37):
The UA DC8-61 on approach to PDFX, fuel starvation?
Quoting ursh (Reply 52):
The SAA flight 295 Helderberg crash was a major one too.
Quoting TSS (Reply 13):
There was Galaxy Airlines Flight 203 out of RNO on January 21, 1985, which resulted in the deaths of 70 of the 71 people on board.
Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 11):
Personally I havent seen much talk about the AA crash in Cali in 1995.
Quoting dstc47 (Reply 9):
The Staines Trident crash is beginning to slip from memory

These crashes are all regularly mentioned in books and TV programs, they are certainly not forgotten (and rightfully so)

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Glareskin
Posted 2011-07-24 07:56:58 and read 24652 times.

A couple of other accidents come to mind:

1 The ElAl cargo 747 that crashed in an appartment building in Amsterdam in the nineties,
2 An Alaska Airlines MD80 (or DC9?) that crashed in the ocean close to LA due to a mechanical failure with the elevator (really horror scenario)
3 A Fokker crash at Moerdijk (Netherlands) caused by a wing that broke off due to turbulance (really scary too)

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: sparky35805
Posted 2011-07-24 07:57:04 and read 24656 times.

The Braniff crash was DC-7C N5904 in March 1958,4 miles west of MIA.
Sparky

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-24 08:25:10 and read 24558 times.

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 62):

4 miles??? See, I thought I read that it was closer to the Gulf coast.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: PROSA
Posted 2011-07-24 08:45:05 and read 24560 times.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 61):
An Alaska Airlines MD80 (or DC9?) that crashed in the ocean close to LA due to a mechanical failure with the elevator (really horror scenario)

A crash which gave rise to an urban legend:
http://www.snopes.com/glurge/alaska.asp

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2011-07-24 08:45:37 and read 24515 times.

Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
One that is not known well but there is a pretty crazy picture of it on the database is TWA 553

IIRC, and I'm often wrong, that was the midair collision that resulted in the creation of the 250kt under 10,000' rule.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 61):
3 A Fokker crash at Moerdijk (Netherlands) caused by a wing that broke off due to turbulance

In one of the more bizarre accidents I can remember, that one was ultimately caused by flying into a tornado embedded in a supercell.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: aceregular
Posted 2011-07-24 08:55:10 and read 24481 times.

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 56):
In the UK no one ever seems to remember the Dan Air crash in Tenerife in 1980. This was the biggest loss of life on a British operated aircraft (146 dead)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan-Air..._1008

I have to agree, considering this happened to a very well known UK based airline, on a holiday flight in the 80's when holiday traffic was starting to increase rapidly, the crash of such a flight and as mentioned to date the biggest loss of life on a British aircraft, it has received little mention in the 31 years since it happened. I have driven up into the forest in the past and I think I was more or less in the right area, as you can see a change in the tree's, but no memorial. Definitely one for National Geographic.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: flymia
Posted 2011-07-24 09:11:50 and read 24443 times.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 65):
IIRC, and I'm often wrong, that was the midair collision that resulted in the creation of the 250kt under 10,000' rule.

It was a midair I am pretty sure your right about the 250 rule.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-24 10:53:09 and read 24260 times.

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 37):
The UA 737 from DCA to MDW in 70 or 71?

That was in 1972. What was the cause because a lot of people thought that it was sabotage. There was a woman, her first name was Dorothy I believe, who was carrying some secret documents regarding the Nixon administration.

Actually, that year nearby ORD had a ground collision between a Delta Convair 880 and North Central DC-9. Anybody know regs?

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Jamake1
Posted 2011-07-24 11:27:12 and read 24229 times.

Delta seems to have a history of losing its tails:

December 20, 1972

Chicago O'Hare Airport

Delta flight 954, a Convair 880 had just arrived from Tampa and was taxing across runway 27L in thick fog and snow. A North Central Airlines DC-9, flight 575 bound for Madison, WI, was taking off on runway 27L at the same time. The DC-9 sheered off the tail of the Delta Convair 880 and crashed onto the runway. The DC-9 burst into flames killing 10 passengers of the 41 passengers and crew of 4. The North Central crew survived, as did 31 passengers, but most received injuries from the post impact fire. Below are some photos of the accident.













Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-07-24 11:42:11 and read 24146 times.

Mrs E. Howard Hunt was carrying a large amount of negotiables as well as a large amount of cash on her person when UA 553 went down. According to rumor she was carrying hush money to keep someone in Chicago quiet. After all, her husband was one of the planners of the Watergate scandal. She also purchased a large amount of travel insurance right before she boarded the plane. I was at MDW when this crash happened and took a drive over to the site. It was really bizarre seeing the tail of a 737 sitting on somebodies front lawn. If you go to the area today, you'll see a few houses that are of a much newer design than the surrounding homes.

In the case of the NC/DL collision crash at ORD, it was a really foggy night that night. I do know that today we have those floor lights that will lead you to an emergency exit thanks to this crash. Some of the people died due to smoke inhalation rather than crash injuries.

[Edited 2011-07-24 11:44:36]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Jamake1
Posted 2011-07-24 12:00:57 and read 24148 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 70):
Mrs E. Howard Hunt was carrying a large amount of negotiables as well as a large amount of cash on her person when UA 553 went down. According to rumor she was carrying hush money to keep someone in Chicago quiet. After all, her husband was one of the planners of the Watergate scandal. She also purchased a large amount of travel insurance right before she boarded the plane. I was at MDW when this crash happened and took a drive over to the site. It was really bizarre seeing the tail of a 737 sitting on somebodies front lawn. If you go to the area today, you'll see a few houses that are of a much newer design than the surrounding homes.



Here is a photo of that accident:

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Jamake1
Posted 2011-07-24 12:08:15 and read 24037 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 68):
Actually, that year nearby ORD had a ground collision between a Delta Convair 880 and North Central DC-9. Anybody know regs?


Delta Convair 880: Reg N8807E

North Central DC-9: Reg N954N

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: kiwiandrew
Posted 2011-07-24 12:09:16 and read 24057 times.

Quoting airport1970 (Reply 51):

Forgotten, but significant because it changed a city. 100 Citizens of Atlanta at once.

AF 007 June 3, 1962. Orly-Idlewild

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_007

"The Day Atlanta Stood Still"

http://www.gpb.org/day-atlanta-stood...still

Thank you for posting this, this was a crash about which I knew absolutely nothing. The documentary was fascinating, not only for the information about the crash itself, but also as an insight into a society which is now long gone.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: UltimateDelta
Posted 2011-07-24 12:13:10 and read 24044 times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braniff_Flight_250

This was one of the first acidents that really brought attention to the various hazards associated with thunderstorms, and seems to be not-widely-known.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-24 12:32:25 and read 23967 times.

OK, here's two:

The 2 UA/TW midair collisions seem to get a lot of attention, but what about the midair collision between Eastern and TWA (year? aircraft? where?) and the almost midair between Eastern and Pan Am over the Atlantic of Long Island. In both cases, the EA aircraft plummeted to the ground.

Also, in 1947? Eastern DC-4?....collided with a military plane near DCA.

What about EA crash that had president Eddie Rickenbacker on board? Is that the only time in history that has happened?

I think it was in the 1930s.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Jamake1
Posted 2011-07-24 12:34:35 and read 24052 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 25):
Eastetn 212 N8984E approach to CLT on Sep 11, 1974

This was the accident that killed Stephen Colbert's father and two older brothers.

Photo below:

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Jamake1
Posted 2011-07-24 12:46:51 and read 23852 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 75):
What about EA crash that had president Eddie Rickenbacker on board? Is that the only time in history that has happened?

It happened in 1941. The DC-3 flipped over near Atlanta. Below is a link to some photos of the accident. They are copyrighted so I will just post the link.


http://album.atlantahistorycenter.co...ern-air-lines-crash-flight-21.aspx

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2011-07-24 13:27:56 and read 23754 times.

Quoting flymia (Reply 18):
Another one is National Airlines Flight 2511 which in January 6, 1960 crashed en-route from MIA to JFK/ Idlewild when a bomb exploded which was planted in the plane by Julian A. Frank, a lawyer from New York City. It is thought he did it to do a murder suicide. This flight should have been a loaded 707 but becaue of a cracked window they had to split the passengers between a DC-6 and Electra.

That's exactly right. The first officer's forward windscreen panel was spidered, so the punters were split between two propliners. From such tiny things, some of us are spared and may live another twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years. The immediate fate of others is sealed. Extraordinary to think about.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-24 13:54:00 and read 23647 times.

National 2511, so was it a DC-6 or Electra?

How about Delta 723 at BOS, 1973


.....the year escapes me, but did United crash a 727-100 into Lake Michigan?

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Braniff747SP
Posted 2011-07-24 13:56:00 and read 23668 times.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 61):
2 An Alaska Airlines MD80 (or DC9?) that crashed in the ocean close to LA due to a mechanical failure with the elevator (really horror scenario)
Quoting Glareskin (Reply 61):
2 An Alaska Airlines MD80 (or DC9?) that crashed in the ocean close to LA due to a mechanical failure with the elevator (really horror scenario)

Alaska 263, and MD-8X, is not forgotten. This is an accident that only happened because of negligence from the Company. It did not have to happen...

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-07-24 14:02:16 and read 23674 times.

One crash that was probably largely forgotten until it's 50th anniversary last February prompted several media items, was the Sabena 707 crash on approach to BRU February 15, 1961, arriving from JFK (then IDL), killing all 61 passengers and 11 crew (and one person on the ground). The passengers included the entire US figure skating team and some of their family members and supporters. They were en route to the World Championships in PRG (the event was cancelled just before it was due to start as a result of the crash).

That was the first 707 crash involving passengers. The 3 earlier 707 crashes had involved 2 training flights (both AA) and an acceptance/training flight of Braniff's first 707 (before delivery).

Film footage of the crash aftermath (no sound). Click the full screen button.
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=68364

Related news item on the 50th anniversary.
http://www.npr.org/2011/02/09/133564...e-crash-that-nearly-killed-a-sport

It includes the following photo showing the US figure skating team prior to departure from IDL. About 7 hours later they were all dead.

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/02/08/sabena.jpg?t=1297189583&s=51

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-24 14:12:26 and read 23621 times.

Western DC-10 at MEX, 1979

Some controversy with that one.


Did Braniff ever lose a pure jet??......and NO, dont count the pre-delivery 707

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-07-24 15:09:35 and read 23504 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 82):
Did Braniff ever lose a pure jet??......and NO, dont count the pre-delivery 707

There was this BAC 1-11 in 1966. I think that was their only loss of a jet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braniff_Flight_250

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-24 15:37:04 and read 23430 times.

Viscount,

Can you tell me about those AA 707s please. I've never heard of them.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-07-24 16:11:28 and read 23358 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 84):
Viscount,

Can you tell me about those AA 707s please. I've never heard of them.

Summaries here:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19590815-0
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19610128-1

Official report on the first one (the 1st loss of a 707). Couldn't find official report for the other one.
http://prcarc1.pr.erau.edu/awweb/main.jsp?flag=browse&smd=2&awdid=1

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: ozark1
Posted 2011-07-24 16:28:28 and read 23328 times.

One small world item about the Delta 880, North Central DC9 collision in Chicago. It was Delta Flight 954 from Tampa and the North Central DC9 was N954N.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: srbmod
Posted 2011-07-24 17:09:56 and read 23255 times.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 26):
I've always been intrigued by the January 1, 1985 crash of Eastern Air Lines flight 980. The Boeing 727 was traveling from Asuncion to Miami, via stops at La Paz, Bolivia and Guayaquil, Ecuador. The aircraft impacted Mt. Illimani at the 19,000 ft level as it was making its approach into La Paz. The 33 passengers and crew were killed and their remains were never recovered. Greg Feith, the former NTSB investigator, led an expedition team to investigate the wreckage. The crash received very little media attention.

Had it not being on a holiday, that death toll might have been higher and would have gotten more media attention. My grandfather who had retired from Eastern (He had briefly returned as a consultant about a year or so after he retired in 1983.) was intrigued by this accident since they left things as they were.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 44):
The TWA crash outside of LAS, with Carol Lombard (crash is still out near Mt. Potossi)

From what I've heard and read, that's a tough crash site to hike to.

http://www.birdandhike.com/Hike/Other_Areas/Lombard/_Lombard.htm

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 55):
Eastern 304 DC-8 at MSY
Crashed into Lake Pontchartrain 25 Feb 1964 Killing all 58 on board. IIRC rtg was MEX-MSY-ATL-IAD-IDL. Evevator trim failure aircraft nosedived into Lake. From what I remember only the wings, engines and part of the tail section were recovered. The exact location of the fuselage is still not known. Every once in a great while you might hear a little something about it, but each time divers search the area nothing is found. The site is a grave and nothing will be done if it is ever located, but the exact location of the remains would still like to be known by local officials.

My grandfather told me that all that was ever found was a galley door, as he was with Eastern at that time and knew some of the EAL folks sent down to assist.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 77):

It happened in 1941. The DC-3 flipped over near Atlanta. Below is a link to some photos of the accident. They are copyrighted so I will just post the link.


http://album.atlantahistorycenter.co...ern-air-lines-crash-flight-21.aspx

I've never seen those photos before and didn't realize any existed. The crash site is in Morrow, GA, but I cannot pinpoint the exact location, but I do have a general area based on info given to me by folks who were alive when it happened (it also matches the distance and direction from the airport where the crash took place):

http://maps.google.com/?ll=33.578024...812&spn=0.004845,0.009645&t=h&z=17

From what I've been told, one of the streets was named after Capt. Eddie as a result of the crash, and that for a number of years, pieces of the fuselage were sitting on the side of the nearby highway.

This is a forgotten one even with someone as well known as Eddie Rickenbacker being onboard (In the early hours after the crash, he had been reported dead and when he was brought to the hospital, they left him for dead because they thought he was not going to survive due to the extent of his injuries.) and a US Congressman being among those killed in the crash. There's not even any sort of marker anywhere near the crash site to memorialize those lost in it. Even with the 70th anniversary of this crash, there wasn't even any mentions of it in the local papers or the local media. Interestingly enough, barely 18 months after nearly dying in the crash of Eastern Flight 21, Capt. Eddie was nearly killed in the ditching of a B-17 while on a tour of the Pacific and spent 24 days adrift before being rescued.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: ozark1
Posted 2011-07-24 17:44:41 and read 23183 times.

Delta 723 that crashed in Boston was a former Northeast Airlines DC9 and National 2511 was a DC6. And a United 727-100 crashed in Lake Michigan in 1965

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: UAL Bagsmasher
Posted 2011-07-24 18:03:40 and read 23153 times.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 8):
Allegheny Flight 853 is another is another crash you seldom hear about any more. It happened on September 9, 1969 when an Allegheny DC-9 & a Piper Cherokee collided over Indiana killing everyone aboard both flights.

LoneStarMike

I visited this site near London IN about 8 years ago. The farm field where it crashed was still a farm. A quick walk in the mud revealed much DC-9 debris. Hydraulic lines, turbine blades, windscreen chips, cosmetic paneling, scab patches from the fuselage, chunks of tire, you name it. After almost 40 years I was surprised anything was left, especially since it's still a working farm.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2011-07-24 18:05:06 and read 23137 times.

There can be several reasons why major air disasters, especially prior to the early 1970's, become 'forgotten'.

One is just time passes, people connected to those lost or remember it may have passed away themselves.

Prior to the 1970's, few average people flew so when more 'average' people flew, they could connect with more victims.

News coverage was a lot less prior to the 1970's, was mainly in newspapers, TV was less able to cover accidents as equipment not as portable or easy to use, it was videotape and could not be live coverage. By the late 1970's, and with the introduction of CNN in the early 1980's, it gave national and internaional coverage of some accidents, sometimes being covered live. That was especially true with one of the first crashes they covered in real time, the Air Florida flight out of DCA.

Many media companies had a conflict of interest in covering too much as to major accidents as they may have been fearful of losses of revenue from advertising from the many airlines then.

Years ago, there were many more accidents overall and higher rates per 1,000,000 flights, so accidents were more expected. Now with improvements in airline strucures and systems, more sophicated weather knowlege, more computers working with the operations of aircraft and on the ground, means any accident in more recent years have a more complex or rare reason to have occured.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Drerx7
Posted 2011-07-24 18:11:24 and read 23129 times.

What about the United DC8 at PDX that ran out of fuel.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-07-24 19:34:57 and read 23008 times.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 90):
News coverage was a lot less prior to the 1970's, was mainly in newspapers, TV was less able to cover accidents as equipment not as portable or easy to use, it was videotape and could not be live coverage.

It also depends what other major news events are happening at the time. For example, one major accident that probably didn't get much coverage outside Canada was AC's worst-ever fatal accident (still TCA then), the DC-8-54F combi that crashed 20 miles north of YUL on November 29, 1963, soon after takeoff en route to YYZ. All 118 aboad were killed. At the time it was the 2nd worst single-aircraft accident in history. That was 7 days after JFK's assassination which was still dominating the news at the time.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19631129-0

It can also depend on the passengers involved. I think everyone on the DC-8 above was Canadian. Had there been a large group of foreign tourists among the passengers, obviously it would get much more coverage in that country. As it was, in much of the world it probably didn't even make the front page of their newspapers.

Pan Am wrote off 5 707s in fatal accidents in 9 months in 1973-74, with a total of 315 fatalities (one was a terrorist attack on a parked 707 at FCO that killed 30 passengers). If it happened today the airline would probably be grounded and the negative publicity would be so adverse it probably wouldn't survive.

Air France had a similar series a decade earlier. They had 2 major 707 crashes in less than 3 weeks in 1962 killing 243. Within just over the previous year they'd already had 2 other serious accidents killing another 155, plus a 3rd 707 written off in a non-fatal rejected takeoff overrun.

[Edited 2011-07-24 19:47:16]

[Edited 2011-07-24 19:48:43]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Jamake1
Posted 2011-07-24 19:37:28 and read 23043 times.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 91):
What about the United DC8 at PDX that ran out of fuel.

Here is a link with several photos of the DC-8 wreckage.


http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/ua173/photo.shtml

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-24 21:02:30 and read 22882 times.

Ooh, good one...How about the YX crash in Milwaukee, 1985.I seem to recall they only had 3 aircraft at the time.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: N49WA
Posted 2011-07-24 21:11:49 and read 22846 times.

ERAU has an online database of historic full-text CAA and NTSB accident reports from 1934 to 1965 that are not in the NTSB database:

http://ntl2.specialcollection.net/sc...dll?websearch&site=dot_aircraftacc

Some of the older accidents mentioned in this thread are listed.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: milesrich
Posted 2011-07-24 21:27:58 and read 22845 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 68):
That was in 1972. What was the cause because a lot of people thought that it was sabotage. There was a woman, her first name was Dorothy I believe, who was carrying some secret documents regarding the Nixon administration.

Her name was Dorothy Hunt, E. Howard Hunt's wife, who was the leader of the Watergate burglary, and who also was a former CIA operative and Bay of Pigs organizer. Mrs. Hunt was carrying $25,000.00 in cash, hush money paid by the Nixon to Hunt to keep quiet about the burglary and CREEP's involvement. The payment was secret but there were no secret documents. The plane, a 737-222 crashed in low visibility winter weather conditions, landing at Midway.

Braniff lost a BAC-111 at Fall City, NE in 1965 or 1966. Other than the 707-227, N7071, their original 707 that crashed on a pre deliery flight, they never lost a Jet in a crash. The Dawson Texas Electra crash in May of 1968 was their last fatal accident before 5-13-1982 shutdown.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: PROSA
Posted 2011-07-24 21:41:49 and read 22798 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19590815-0

Hmmm. That's not too far from me, and I'm reasonably familiar with the general crash site area (3.1 miles NE of 3C8). Sounds like I'll have to do some research to see if I can pinpoint the site and see if there are any traces remaining. It used to be a mainly agricultural area but over the years some parts have been developed for housing.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: msypi7185
Posted 2011-07-24 22:14:02 and read 22746 times.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 87):
My grandfather told me that all that was ever found was a galley door, as he was with Eastern at that time and knew some of the EAL folks sent down to assist.

That was what I had heard for many years as well. I had a book that mentioned this crash (I lost it in Katrina) that indicated that the wings,engines and part of the tail section was recovered, but this was months later IIRC. The accident data bases are rather vague. I do remember reading that they could not find the exact location of the crash for quite some time. Fortunately the controller at New Orleans Center, which was based at (KNEW) Lakefront Airport IIRC, had marked the radar screen where the last position was when radar contact was lost. They were able to help narrow down the search area which eventually led to the recovery of enough of the aircraft to help ascertain the probable cause. IIRC the wings, engines and a part of the tail section separtaed on impact. Part of the problem was that the crash happened just after 2 am. There are a few other things I seem to remember reading about this, but my memory is not what it used to be so I wont go into it anymore. What is amazing is that Lake Pontchartrain averages 10 to 17 feet in depth and an entire DC-8 fuselage at a minimum disappears never to be found. The lake has a soft bottom, but that part of the lake averages closer to the 10 - 12 ft depth.

MD

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2011-07-25 01:02:26 and read 22605 times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Airlines_Flight_2511

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,828551,00.html

http://www.starnewsonline.com/articl...54003/0/VIDEO?p=all&tc=pgall&tc=ar

Quoting flymia (Reply 18):
Another one is National Airlines Flight 2511 which in January 6, 1960 crashed en-route from MIA to JFK/ Idlewild when a bomb exploded which was planted in the plane by Julian A. Frank, a lawyer from New York City. It is thought he did it to do a murder suicide. This flight should have been a loaded 707 but becaue of a cracked window they had to split the passengers between a DC-6 and Electra.

Talk about a last minute switch of equipment. See thread on that topic. Actually the route was JFK then Idelwilde to MIA.
I linked several stories of this tragedy.

Regarding crashes the late Capital Airlines seemed to have a dubious at best record for safety. Capital was absorbed by UA in 1961. UA inherited their aging Vickers Viscounts but fortunatly did not absorb their bad karma and accident record. On May 12, 1959 Capital had the bad luck of two seperate fatal crashes. One was a Viscount that plummeted to destruction and the other was one of their vintage aging Connies that crashed. Not counting the terrorist attacks of 9/11 I don't think one airline at least in the USA has encountered more than one fatal accident on the same day. Capital Airlines owns this badge of dishonor. BTW anyone remember those two crashes on that tragic day in May of 1959?
What did the media say about the safety and air worthiness of this now defunct airline?

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: TCASAlert
Posted 2011-07-25 04:37:11 and read 22443 times.

Nobody seems to remember the British Midland flight that crashed at Stockport in 1967 - one of the biggest ever disasters in the UK, coming down right in the centre of Stockport.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockport_air_disaster

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: vhqpa
Posted 2011-07-25 06:59:01 and read 22274 times.

In Australia there were quite a few accidents in the sixties.

- 10 June 1960, TAA loses a Fokker F27 in the Coral sea on approach into Mackay to date the cause of the accident has not been determined (29 Fatalities).

- 30 November 1961, Ansett-ANA loses a Vickers Viscount 720 in Botany Bay after departure from Sydney determined to be caused by a structural failure (15 fatalities).

- 22 September 1966, Ansett-ANA loses a Vickers Viscount 832 flying between Mount Isa and Longreach determined to be caused by a engine fire (24 Fatalities).

- 31 December 1968, MacRobertson Miller Airlines loses a Vickers Viscount 720 in the Indian Ocean on approach to Port Hedland like the Botany Bay accident this was also a structural failure. (26 Fatalities).

These would have been very high profile back in the day but now they are seldom mentioned today.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2011-07-25 07:00:25 and read 22254 times.

Quoting msypi7185 (Reply 98):
That was what I had heard for many years as well. I had a book that mentioned this crash (I lost it in Katrina) that indicated that the wings,engines and part of the tail section was recovered, but this was months later IIRC.

Robert Serling's excellent book "Loud and Clear" discusses the investigation of this crash. This book has been out of print for 40 years, but it isn't hard to find a used copy. It's a GREAT book if you want to learn more about air crashes in the 1960s, including many that are long forgotten.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-07-25 07:49:51 and read 22172 times.

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 88):
And a United 727-100 crashed in Lake Michigan in 1965

This accident was caused by the high sink rate a 727 can have with 40 degrees of flaps. When the 727 first came out there were quite a few accidents caused by this flying behavior. UA finally changed their operations manual so that no more than 30 degrees of flaps aren't used and the problem seemed to go away.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 96):
Braniff lost a BAC-111 at Fall City, NE in 1965 or 1966

That was BN flight 250, MKC-OMA.. There was very turbulent weather in the area from an approaching cold front and weather reporting wasn't what it is as we have today. The captain decided to go under the storm at 5,000ft rather than go up to 20K feet. The aircraft broke up in flight from extreme turbulence. Some witnesses said a tornado was in the area at the time of the crash.
Sidenote: In 2006 a memorial been put up near the site, 40 years after the crash.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: planespotting
Posted 2011-07-25 08:24:08 and read 22060 times.

Quoting UltimateDelta (Reply 74):
This was one of the first acidents that really brought attention to the various hazards associated with thunderstorms, and seems to be not-widely-known.

I've been interested in this crash ever since I read about it in Splash of Colors, John J. Nance's book about the story of Braniff. He devotes a few pages to this crash (Braniff 352) and offers a few things that may have contributed to the crash, such as the flight crew's apprehension about being late due to a marketing gimmick Braniff came up with (a clock in the cabin that buzzes five minutes after the on-time arrival - if the plane wasn't at the gate at the time, all the passengers received $5 or something like that).

But the main idea Nance speculated was that the crew wasn't trained enough to correctly use the onboard radar and misinterpreted a black (null?) area on the radar a spot void of thunderstorms, when it was actually the most intense part of the storm. Hence flying directly into the cell.

At one point in my life I was flying HOU-DAL multiple times a month (many decades after this crash though), and this accident is about the only one I know about that happened on a route that I have personal familiarity with, so I'm a little more interested in it than some others.

Another notable flight that I had not heard about until a few years ago was AA flight 1, which was featured in season 2 of Mad Men:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_1

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 777jaah
Posted 2011-07-25 09:43:36 and read 21947 times.

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 11):
Personally I havent seen much talk about the AA crash in Cali in 1995.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wXdOOVhtp8

Since I was born and raised in Cali, that's a crash that comes out very often between our friends. I knew a few pax on the flight, and had the chance to talk with some of the people involved in the rescue and a lawyer that had the cance to go up to the crash site. I still can rememeber watching CNN that night and all of the sudden showing a map of Colombia and then the news....it was one of the first ones to report it. My girlfriend in that time, had taken the same flight 2 days before the crash...

So for me, still very fresh in my mind.


777jaah

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: isitsafenow
Posted 2011-07-25 10:40:34 and read 21833 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 25):
Anyone remember these?

Eastern 66, N8845E, at JFK on June 24, 1975
Eastetn 212 N8984E approach to CLT on Sep 11, 1974
American L-188 Electra approaching LGA in 1959
2 DC-9-10s lost in trainig accidents by Eastetn and Delta
Northeast plane aftet takeoff from LGA, right near Rikers Island.......maybe ON it.
And what about December 1, 1974? 2 727-200 (NW and TWA) in 2 seperate accidents near IAD and upstate New York.
National 727-200 flt 193, N4744 "Donna" accidently landing in Escambia Bay near PNS killing 3
Air Cal at SNA(?) in 1981



EA66 from MSY...a micro burst as it was coming over the lights on 22L...or was it 22R?
EA212 cockpit boys were on final in light fog talking about everything except landing the plane.
AA date 1959...same day as the three stars died in Iowa ..Feb 3rd 59
Actually AA lost three L-188's....one at Knoxville and two at LGA.
Northeast DC6B in a snowstorm...book was titled TIGER ON A LEASE....hard to find
NW N274US pitot tube heater not turned on....flight had no pax just cockpit crew on way from JFK to BUF to pick up Baltimore Colts football team.
TW was diverted from DCA to IAD...coming from Columbus....hit a hill in lousy weather.
The NAtional plane was written off by the insurance company and then they sold the plane. It did fly again.
Check the Boeing manufacture book for who flew it after the slide into the bay.
Hows that for a memory? Now, ask me what I had for dinner on Saturday....duuuhhhh.
There is also a book on that TWA 727-200 near IAD crash but I forgot the name....its somewhere in my collection.
safe

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2011-07-25 10:53:29 and read 21774 times.

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 106):
There is also a book on that TWA 727-200 near IAD crash but I forgot the name....i

The book was titled Sound of Impact

LoneStarMike

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: david_itl
Posted 2011-07-25 10:54:46 and read 21793 times.

Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 100):
Nobody seems to remember the British Midland flight that crashed at Stockport in 1967

Well we did have a thread about it on it's 35th anniversary that produced a tremendous number of replies.  

We've also got the BEA Viscount crash around 1957 that happened about 150 to 200 yards out from MAN when some wing bolts suffered metal fatigure which led to it crashing on a house on Shadow Moss Road.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: SKYMILER
Posted 2011-07-25 11:23:37 and read 21698 times.

I will never forget seeing the huge pall of black smoke from the wreckage of the TCA DC-8 (CF-TIW) near YYZ in 1970 .... 

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: luv2fly
Posted 2011-07-25 11:34:08 and read 21640 times.

Southern Airways flight 242 April 4th DC9 and Northwest 1482 and Northwest 229 a DC9 and 727 that collided in DTW on the runway in heavy fog. December 3rd, 1990

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: SKYMILER
Posted 2011-07-25 11:39:54 and read 21626 times.

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 106):
EA66 from MSY...a micro burst as it was coming over the lights on 22L...or was it 22R?

I was in New York that sad day ..... remember it well ....

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: moose135
Posted 2011-07-25 11:42:51 and read 21587 times.

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 106):
EA66 from MSY...a micro burst as it was coming over the lights on 22L...or was it 22R?

22 Left, per the NTSB report (which the forum won't let me include a link to...)

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: jsnww81
Posted 2011-07-25 12:18:53 and read 21487 times.

Another often-forgotten one is the 1973 crash of Texas International Flight 655, a Convair 600, in the mountains in west-central Arkansas. The plane was operating a short hop from El Dorado to Texarkana and became lost while trying to circumnavigate thunderstorms along the regular route. The crew strayed significantly north/northwest of the normal route and was nearing the Oklahoma border when they struck a ridge of the Ouachita Mountains. Because they were lost, they were unaware of the minimum descent altitude needed to clear the mountains. All 11 passengers aboard were killed and it took search parties several days to locate the wreckage, since the plane was so far off course.

Most of the wreckage was left on the mountain and today it is a favorite of "wreck chasers" in the area. The distinctive Texas International livery is still very visible on the fuselage:

http://www.undergroundozarks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7056

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Jamake1
Posted 2011-07-25 12:35:20 and read 21433 times.

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 113):
Another often-forgotten one is the 1973 crash of Texas International Flight 655, a Convair 600, in the mountains in west-central Arkansas.

Here is an intriguing news report 30 years after that accident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHkSo7djNlE

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: tonymctigue
Posted 2011-07-25 12:35:23 and read 21429 times.

Major accidents according to the Wikipedia page on Shannon:

December 28, 1946 - TWA Lockheed Constellation Flight 6963 crashed attempting to land at the airport (18 fatalities).

April 15, 1948 - Pan Am Lockheed Constellation Flight 1-10 crashed attempting to land at the airport (30 fatalities, many of the whom are buried together in Drumcliff Cemetary just outside Ennis, Co. Clare).

5 September 1954 - Lockheed Super Constellation KLM Flight 633 from Amsterdam to New York, using Shannon as a refueling stop, crashed just after takeoff into a mudbank adjacent to the airport (28 fatalities).

26 February 1960 - an Alitalia Douglas DC-7C crashed after taking off from the airport (34 fatalities).

10 September 1961 - a President Airlines Douglas DC-6 crashed into the river Shannon after taking off from the airport on a flight to Canada (83 fatalities, one of the worst air disasters in Ireland's history).

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BAViscount
Posted 2011-07-25 12:47:10 and read 21405 times.

Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 100):
Nobody seems to remember the British Midland flight that crashed at Stockport in 1967 - one of the biggest ever disasters in the UK, coming down right in the centre of Stockport.

I'd never even heard of it till I read this.

Quoting david_itl (Reply 108):
Well we did have a thread about it on it's 35th anniversary that produced a tremendous number of replies.

Yes, the response was a tad underwhelming!

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-07-25 12:59:11 and read 21387 times.

Texas International Flight 655 was caused by the pilot scud running. We have all heard not to do it, but he did and while they weren't paying attention to the aircraft heading they veered off course into a mountain. According to the CVR, the last bit of info the capt. asked for was the minimum altitude for that area. Their altitude was 2500' and the minimum was 4500'. Seconds later history was made near Mena, AR. The Mena airport has kind of a tricky approach if you are not familiar with it. The mountain has quite a number of general aviation aircraft wrecks on it.

I personally read the internal TI documents about that crash including the petition to the government to leave the wreckage where it ended up because removing it would cause more environmental damage than leaving it there. The wreckage was in a hard to reach heavily wooded, mountainous type of area several mile from a road. In order to remove the Convair, they'd need to bring in cranes and bulldozers and make a road to the site. The crash site is also in a national forest, so the government approved the request.

That aircraft had just been painted in the new TI Texas Star livery a few days before, the first Convair to wear it.
And the Texas Star livery was created in house by TI, rather than having some design company come up with it. Not too shabby, huh?

The night of that crash, I was flying MLU-SHV and FSS called me and asked me if I have seen anything unusual along that route.
I hadn't and when I read the newspapers that morning, I knew what they were looking for.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2011-07-25 13:10:53 and read 21391 times.

If everybody remembers the PA/KLM at Tenerife, and the TK 918 (DC10), it seems that everybody has forgotten the very first crash of a B747 : Flight Lufthansa LH 540 on Nov. 20 1974 (B747-130 D-ABYB) at NBO

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19741120-0

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-07-25 14:09:17 and read 21251 times.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,834039,00.html

85 fatalites. No-one ever seems to remember this one.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 80):
Alaska 263, and MD-8X, is not forgotten. This is an accident that only happened because of negligence from the Company. It did not have to happen...

It was 261, not 263.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 25):
Air Cal at SNA(?) in 1981

This wasn't really a crash. They pulled the landing gear up prematurely during a go-around after touchdown during a runway incursion incident, IIRC and did a belly landing. No-one was hurt. Yes it was SNA.

PSA 1771 is another less thought of accident, often overshadowed by PSA 182.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 1stfl94
Posted 2011-07-25 14:30:11 and read 21191 times.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 118):
If everybody remembers the PA/KLM at Tenerife, and the TK 918 (DC10), it seems that everybody has forgotten the very first crash of a B747 : Flight Lufthansa LH 540 on Nov. 20 1974 (B747-130 D-ABYB) at NBO

However that top picture of the Lufthansa crash has often been erroneously described as being one of the Tenerife crash.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: jamake1
Posted 2011-07-25 15:08:33 and read 21121 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 119):
This wasn't really a crash. They pulled the landing gear up prematurely during a go-around after touchdown during a runway incursion incident, IIRC and did a belly landing. No-one was hurt. Yes it was SNA.


Actually, it was a crash. The aircraft was totally destroyed. Furthermore, 4 passengers received serious injuries and 29 passengers were treated and released.

http://m.ocregister.com/news/-295214--.html?pic=1

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: sparky35805
Posted 2011-07-25 18:04:30 and read 20905 times.

Anyone remember United Viscount flt 823 on July 9 1964?Flight 823,PHL-DCA-TYS-HSV was being operated by The first Viscount 745 delivered to Capital,N7405.The aircraft had started its initial decent into TYS when a fire of unknown origin started in the passenger cabin.The aircraft was seen at low altitude trailing smoke.A passenger from here in HSV opened anoverwing exit and jumped to his death about a mile fron the crash sight.The aircraft finally stalled and crashed into a hill side near Parrotsville,TN.The origin of the fire is still unexplained.It originated in the frward part of the cabin is all thats known.
The Eastern-TWA mid air was in December 1965 involving a 707-131B and a L1049C.The Connie with part of its tail sheared off,made a somewhat controlled crash landing on a hillside using engine powere alone to control the aircraft.There were 4 fatalities including Captain White,who reentered the burning aircraft to try to save a passenger trapped in his seat.The 707 made a safe landing at JFK with the outer wing missing.It was repaired and severd with TWA for many years.
Sparky

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-07-25 18:19:02 and read 20894 times.

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 122):
The 707 made a safe landing at JFK with the outer wing missing.It was repaired and severd with TWA for many years.



Yes, one of two incidents where a 707 was able to maintain control and fly and land with an outboard engine and 25-30 feet of wing missing. They were both coincidentally in 1965 also.

They sure don't make 'em (planes or pilots) like that anymore.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-25 19:10:55 and read 20805 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 123):

Sorry, the other being??????


Southern DC-9 at Huntington WV

Wasn't there a movie about this like 5 years ago?

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: moose135
Posted 2011-07-25 19:31:29 and read 20768 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 124):

Southern DC-9 at Huntington WV

Wasn't there a movie about this like 5 years ago?

Yes, the crash was a charter for the Marshall University football team. The movie "We Are Marshall" tells the story, although it really is more about how the school and the community overcome the tragedy, not really about the crash itself.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-25 19:42:55 and read 20766 times.

KE DC-10 at Tripoli.....1989?

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: PROSA
Posted 2011-07-25 19:56:28 and read 20733 times.

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 122):
The Eastern-TWA mid air was in December 1965 involving a 707-131B and a L1049C.The Connie with part of its tail sheared off,made a somewhat controlled crash landing on a hillside using engine powere alone to control the aircraft.There were 4 fatalities including Captain White,who reentered the burning aircraft to try to save a passenger trapped in his seat.The 707 made a safe landing at JFK with the outer wing missing.It was repaired and severd with TWA for many years.

Growing up in Connecticut I was quite interested by that crash as it occurred in New York State very close to the Connecticut line. The Connie was trying for an emergency landing at DXR, and firefighters from Connecticut were the first to the scene. I never was able to pinpoint the location of the crash, let alone find out if any debris remains on the site.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: EDTrauma
Posted 2011-07-25 21:18:59 and read 20625 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 25):
Eastetn 212 N8984E approach to CLT on Sep 11, 1974

Just picked up William Stockton's book on this accident. An absolutely riveting read.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: FX1816
Posted 2011-07-25 21:43:08 and read 20587 times.

The crash of Emery 017, DC871F on take off from MHR is not really talked about at all but it was and is still very important to me. N8079U

FX1816

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Ty134A
Posted 2011-07-26 05:55:26 and read 20386 times.

That's an interesting one:

Lauda 004

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DNOLq-tnFU

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-07-26 07:56:45 and read 20262 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 124):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 123):


Sorry, the other being??????
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833903,00.html

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Braniff747SP
Posted 2011-07-26 07:57:32 and read 20287 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 119):
261
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 119):
261

     


Damn. My apologies.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-07-26 08:03:40 and read 20252 times.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 132):
Damn. My apologies.



No prob. The important thing is that kind of accident never happen again, regardless of the flight number.

When you consider the population and number of flights, it seems like California has had less than average number of accidents since 1960. These come to mind:

PSA 182
PSA1771 (sabotage)
AM DC-9 mid-air
AS 261
Hughes Airwest DC-9 mid-air near Pasadena
US 737 that landed on the EMB-120 (I think that's what it was)
SAS DC-8 off LAX
UA 727 of LAX five days later
Paradise Constallation near TVL
Golden West mid-air near Fullerton
Pacific F-27 near Concord, similar circumstances to PSA 1771
Flying Tiger Constallation freighter near SFO

Did I miss any?

[Edited 2011-07-26 08:05:24]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2011-07-26 08:41:02 and read 20237 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 123):
Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 122):
The 707 made a safe landing at JFK with the outer wing missing.It was repaired and severd with TWA for many years.

Yes, one of two incidents where a 707 was able to maintain control and fly and land with an outboard engine and 25-30 feet of wing missing. They were both coincidentally in 1965 also.

A Pan Am 707 had an uncontained engine failure on takeoff from SFO, which caused portions of one of the wings to fall off, but the aircraft was able to make a safe landing without any injuries.

After the TWA 707 made it safely to JFK post-collision, someone jokingly sent a message through TWA's teletype system, modifying the minimum equipment list for the 707 so that it was now "permissible" to dispatch a 707 with only one wing. A strong testament to a very rugged aircraft!

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 122):
Anyone remember United Viscount flt 823 on July 9 1964?Flight 823,PHL-DCA-TYS-HSV was being operated by The first Viscount 745 delivered to Capital,N7405.The aircraft had started its initial decent into TYS when a fire of unknown origin started in the passenger cabin.

Robert Serling also discussed this crash in "Loud and Clear". Serling theorized that the ignition source might have been a woman freshening her hair before the aircraft landed, and her hair spray accidentaly caught fire. Serling also felt that the passenger who jumped out of the aircraft inadvertently caused the fire to spread more rapidly, because air flowing through the hole where the emergency exit had been gave the fire more oxygen.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 133):
When you consider the population and number of flights, it seems like California has had less than average number of accidents since 1960. These come to mind:

In August, 1984, a Wings West Beech 99 collided with a private aircraft at SBP. All seventeen people aboard the two aircraft were killed.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-07-26 09:41:37 and read 20135 times.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 134):
A Pan Am 707 had an uncontained engine failure on takeoff from SFO, which caused portions of one of the wings to fall off, but the aircraft was able to make a safe landing without any injuries.



Yeah, one of the most spectacular incidents ever, that fortunately ended happily. They supposedly didn't want to come back to SFO or OAK because of questionable control, so they turned very gradually and headed to Travis Air Force Base. I read that the Captain very seriously considered ditching off the Great Ocean Highway in San Francisco, but determined he could maintain control. There was apparenlty some anxiousnous about them overyflying San Francisco at 1000 feet in that condition, but the rest of the 24 minute flight was over water or unpopulated areas.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 134):
In August, 1984, a Wings West Beech 99 collided with a private aircraft at SBP. All seventeen people aboard the two aircraft were killed.



I didn't know about that one. I did know about the Golden West mid-air and Disney Helocopter crashes in Southern California though.

There was also the Navy P-3 and NASA Convair 990 mid-air over the Sunnyvale Golf Course on short final to Moffett Field in 1973.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: falstaff
Posted 2011-07-26 10:21:19 and read 20086 times.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 44):
CO 1713, a DC-9 that crashed in DEN, upside down during a blizzard, and took forever to get the survivors out


That is the first and only jet liner crash site I ever have seen while all the wreckage was still there. I remember all the local TV coverage like it was yesterday.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 44):
NW 255 in DTW. 1 sole survivor.


There is a memorial for that one.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 110):
Southern Airways flight 242 April 4th DC9 and Northwest 1482 and Northwest 229 a DC9 and 727 that collided in DTW on the runway in heavy fog. December 3rd, 1990


Didn't one of the DC-9s get towed down I-94 out to YIP to be cut up? That would have been a sight to see.

You don't hear much about UA 585 much these days. I know for a while people were wondering if the 737 was safe?

CO (micronesia) lost a 727 back in 1980, you don't hear about that one anymore. If it wasn't for the article in a Airways a few years back I would never have known about it.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: isitsafenow
Posted 2011-07-26 12:00:55 and read 19939 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 124):
Wasn't there a movie about this like 5 years ago?


I think it was called WE ARE MARSHALL......probably pick up the disc in Walmart or Target.
In the movie the production used a DC9 model 10 on the ramp and taxi-out, but in NOV of 1970, it was really a model 30 that crashed short of the airport.
safe

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BWI5OH
Posted 2011-07-26 12:04:12 and read 19927 times.

I'm not sure of dates or airline (though I believe it was a PanAm 720) in the '60's that was in a holding pattern while descending into PHL. The plane was struck by lightning and crashed outside of Northeast, MD. (Sorry y'all, in a bit of a hurry, and didn't have time to look it up).

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-07-26 12:29:47 and read 19888 times.

Quoting BWI5OH (Reply 138):
I'm not sure of dates or airline (though I believe it was a PanAm 720) in the '60's that was in a holding pattern while descending into PHL. The plane was struck by lightning and crashed outside of Northeast, MD. (Sorry y'all, in a bit of a hurry, and didn't have time to look it up).



It was a Pan Am 707. Crashed at Elkton, MD.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: moose135
Posted 2011-07-26 12:34:45 and read 19872 times.

That was a Pan Am 707, flight 214, from San Juan to PHL, with a stop in BWI. After the stop, it was holding en route to PHL, and was struck by lightning, causing fuel vapors in the #1 (port side) reserve tank to explode. The plane crashed in Elkton, MD.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: KL5147
Posted 2011-07-26 13:09:28 and read 19786 times.

On 6 oct 1981, NLM Cityhopper's Fokker F-28-4000 Fellowship, PH-CHI crashed near Moerdijk (NL) close to Rotterdam. Aircraft entered a tornado, which resulted in loads increasing to +6.8 G and -3,2 G. The right wing separated and the aircraft crashed out of control out of 3000 feet. 4 crew, 13 pax and one person on the ground died.


Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: EIRules
Posted 2011-07-26 13:15:21 and read 19766 times.

I dont wish to start a diplomatic incident, and I do understand that there are more flights within the USA than most other comparable areas. But is it just me or are there a proportionately high number of accidents of US based carriers, or within the USA? (And yes I know that it may simply be that more US incidents are reported here due to where our members come from)

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-07-26 13:22:43 and read 19733 times.

Quoting EIRules (Reply 142):
But is it just me or are there a proportionately high number of accidents of US based carriers, or within the USA?



How many accidents have their been by US based carriers in the past 10 years? Almost none:

AA A300 and Lexington come to mind as far as major fatal accidents. Pretty darn good now (although two is still too many).

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: canoecarrier
Posted 2011-07-26 13:25:13 and read 19754 times.

One that comes to mind is the 1970 Wichita St. University football team crash near Loveland Pass, CO. It was a Martin 404 that couldn't climb out of the canyon and crashed below the Eisenhower tunnel near I-70. I took these photos of the crash site last year when I did some work there. Sorry for the image quality, it was pouring rain at the time.

Just above the crash site



View of plane wreckage and trees broken on impact with forest



Not shown is you can see the line of trees the plane took down when it crashed. There's still a lot of wreckage at the site. I'm not sure that many people go up there I don't think many, but there's a rough trail/road that still exists they built to get the major parts of the plane out. 36 people on board, 31 died.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2011-07-26 13:27:41 and read 19746 times.

Another crash not mentioned yet (unless I missed it) was United Flight 227. This crash happened at SLC on November 11, 1965 - just 3 days after the AA 383 crash at CVG. The plane crash landed 335 feet short of the runway with 43 fatalities. 48 others survived including a FA and two passengers who initially tried to escape via the rear stairs, but they couldn't get it opened far enough. They were trapped in the tail for 25 minutes before fire fighters saw the waving hand of the FA and rescued the 3.

2 photos of burned out interior from a flickr account.

LoneStarMike

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-07-26 13:34:20 and read 19679 times.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 144):
One that comes to mind is the 1970 Wichita St. University football team crash near Loveland Pass, CO.

I believe that was the one where the pilot flew into the canyon for sightseeing, not realizing it was a box canyon that they got trapped in and couldn't turn around or climb out of. There was an article in Airliners Magazine about this one years ago.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: EIRules
Posted 2011-07-26 13:42:14 and read 19645 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 143):
How many accidents have their been by US based carriers in the past 10 years? Almost none:

AA A300 and Lexington come to mind as far as major fatal accidents. Pretty darn good now (although two is still too many)

What about CO connection outside Buffalo?
US in the Hudson (though I know there were no fatalities it was pretty miraculous).
US express in Charlotte in 2003.

As I said, just an observation

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-26 13:43:39 and read 19660 times.

Quoting BWI5OH (Reply 138):
I'm not sure of dates or airline (though I believe it was a PanAm 720) in the '60's that was in a holding pattern while descending into PHL. The plane was struck by lightning and crashed outside of Northeast, MD. (Sorry y'all, in a bit of a hurry, and didn't have time to look it up).
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 139):
It was a Pan Am 707. Crashed at Elkton, MD.

N709PA, IIRC, which was a VERY early 707 bird.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 144):
One that comes to mind is the 1970 Wichita St. University football team crash near Loveland Pass, CO. It was a Martin 404 that couldn't climb out of the canyon and crashed below the Eisenhower tunnel near I-70. I took these photos of the crash site last year when I did some work there. Sorry for the image quality, it was pouring rain at the time.

Interestingly, back on the 40th anniversary, one of the local papers here in Tampa Bay recently did a story on a student from here that was a victim.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: milesrich
Posted 2011-07-26 13:59:06 and read 19638 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 133):
When you consider the population and number of flights, it seems like California has had less than average number of accidents since 1960. These come to mind:

PSA 182
PSA1771 (sabotage)
AM DC-9 mid-air
AS 261
Hughes Airwest DC-9 mid-air near Pasadena
US 737 that landed on the EMB-120 (I think that's what it was)
SAS DC-8 off LAX
UA 727 of LAX five days later
Paradise Constallation near TVL
Golden West mid-air near Fullerton
Pacific F-27 near Concord, similar circumstances to PSA 1771
Flying Tiger Constallation freighter near SFO

Did I miss any?

JAL DC-8 that landed in San Francisco Bay
Southwest 737 at Burbank that slid through the fence and into the road.
BAC 111 that hit the snowbank at TVL and lost a wing
but I believe these last three were all non fatal accidents.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-07-26 14:09:06 and read 19604 times.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 149):
JAL DC-8 that landed in San Francisco Bay
Southwest 737 at Burbank that slid through the fence and into the road.
BAC 111 that hit the snowbank at TVL and lost a wing
but I believe these last three were all non fatal accidents.

Yes, I was referring to fatal accidents. Then we'd also add the Pan Am 707 that lost 25 feet of it's wing and right engine at SFO (link I provided in another posting) and the Pan Am 747 that hit the light bridge on takeoff at SFO and Air California at SNA (which another poster mentioned).

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: rikkus67
Posted 2011-07-26 15:26:26 and read 19514 times.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 12):
As a Canadian, it surprises me not much is told about the 1978 PWA (Pacific Western) crash in BC.
http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/pw-cal/photo.shtml

It truly was amazing that everyone got off in this incident, when compared to a near exact same accident with British Airtours.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: UltimateDelta
Posted 2011-07-26 16:02:47 and read 19450 times.

One other one I'd heard about before, but forgot about (what does that say?) until this thread:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19681025-2

Northeast Airlines flight 946, October 25, 1968.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: canoecarrier
Posted 2011-07-26 16:20:54 and read 19423 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 146):
I believe that was the one where the pilot flew into the canyon for sightseeing, not realizing it was a box canyon that they got trapped in and couldn't turn around or climb out of. There was an article in Airliners Magazine about this one years ago.

The NTSB report said that the plane was overloaded. That and poor management by the charter company. They had an equipment swap from a DC-6 to two Martin 404's that had been out of service for almost 3 years. Underpowered and overloaded. Ironically, the second aircraft flew a different route and made it to Utah safely.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 148):
Interestingly, back on the 40th anniversary, one of the local papers here in Tampa Bay recently did a story on a student from here that was a victim.

Supposedly there's a memorial nearby, but I didn't see it. I think they put it down off the interstate so more people could see it. I spent my time there walking around in the woods for 2 weeks and accessed the crash site from above. In order to access the jeep trail built to remove the aircraft you have to go through a locked gate that leads to the equipment storage yard of the ski area. The construction company used to store equipment when they built the tunnel.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-07-26 16:32:36 and read 19424 times.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 153):
The NTSB report said that the plane was overloaded. That and poor management by the charter company. They had an equipment swap from a DC-6 to two Martin 404's that had been out of service for almost 3 years. Underpowered and overloaded. Ironically, the second aircraft flew a different route and made it to Utah safely.



I remembered correctly:

"During the flight to Denver he visited with passengers in the cabin, advising them that after refueling they would take a scenic route, near the Loveland ski resort. "

"Shortly before the crash several witnesses described seeing a plane fly unusually low towards the Continental Divide. Some witnesses located on higher mountainside locations, such as Loveland Pass at 11,990 feet, reported seeing the plane flying below them.[5] The overloaded aircraft, nearing Loveland Pass as it flew up Clear Creek Valley, became trapped in a box canyon and was unable to climb above the mountain ridges surrounding it on three sides, nor complete a reversal turn away from the sharply rising terrain. At 1:14 p.m. the "Gold" aircraft struck trees on Mount Trelease 1,600 feet below the summit and crashed."



"The National Transportation Safety Board report states that weather played no role in the accident,[5] and lists the probable cause to be that the pilot made improper decisions in-flight or in planning:"

"The intentional operation of the aircraft over a mountain valley route at an altitude from which the aircraft could neither climb over the obstructing terrain ahead, nor execute a successful course reversal. Significant factors were the overloaded condition of the aircraft, the virtual absence of flight planning for the chosen route of flight from Denver to Logan, a lack of understanding on the part of the crew of the performance capabilities and limitations of the aircraft, and the lack of operational management to monitor and appropriately control the actions of the flightcrew."[5][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wichita...iversity_football_team_plane_crash

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Scooter01
Posted 2011-07-26 16:36:55 and read 19402 times.

I'm surprised noone has remembered SN 548 -the first fatal crash of a Boeing 707 in commercial service.
Just outside Brussel, killing the entire US figureskating team on Feb15/61,

AC 621, a DC-8 on its way from Montreal to Los Angeles via Toronto.
Just north of YYZ, killing everyone onboard on July 5/70.

This one I remember vividly:
Icelandair's Viscount, TF-ISU, that crashed on approach to Oslo on April 14/63, killing everyone onboard.
(I happened to be raking leaves at my girlfriend's parents house, a mile away from the impact, when it happened.)


Scooter01

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: DaBuzzard
Posted 2011-07-26 16:50:22 and read 19372 times.

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 151):
Quoting bmacleod (Reply 12):As a Canadian, it surprises me not much is told about the 1978 PWA (Pacific Western) crash in BC.http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/pw-cal/photo.shtmlIt truly was amazing that everyone got off in this incident, when compared to a near exact same accident with British Airtours.


Think you got the wrong accident. The one you refer to happened at YYC (uncontained engine failure on takeoff roll, stopped on runway, all evacuated with some injuries),.

The one bmacleod refers too was in Cranbrook when the crew attempted a go around after touchdown (and thrust reverser deployment) when they saw a snowplow on the runway.
As soon as the gear got off the ground the hydraulic power to the thrust reversers was cut off leaving them partialy deployed. They crashed off the side of the runway, few survivors  http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cvr780211.htm

[Edited 2011-07-26 16:52:29]

[Edited 2011-07-26 16:55:34]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: canoecarrier
Posted 2011-07-26 16:52:23 and read 19376 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 154):
"During the flight to Denver he visited with passengers in the cabin, advising them that after refueling they would take a scenic route, near the Loveland ski resort. "

There's a little more information in the NTSB report. They weren't sightseeing flying around the mountains like tourists, but they did take the scenic route when the plane crashed. The pilots didn't realize they were in a box canyon, tried to climb, didn't have enough distance to clear the Divide, tried to turn around, stalled the plane in the Dry Gulch area, and crashed into Mount Trelease. Probably didn't help that they were 2,665 pounds over takeoff weight when they crashed.

http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR71-02.pdf

I think we're agreeing, it's probably just semantics.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-07-26 17:06:10 and read 19352 times.

Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 155):
AC 621, a DC-8 on its way from Montreal to Los Angeles via Toronto.
Just north of YYZ, killing everyone onboard on July 5/70.



This one is especially sad because of the circumstances. The F/O was arming the speedbrakes shortly before touchdown but accidently deployed them. One wing hit the ground and caught fire. The Captain did a go-around and as the plane was flying back around for landing it exploded and crashed. The F/O was heard on the FDR as saying "sorry" when he accidently deployed the speedbrakes.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BAViscount
Posted 2011-07-26 17:15:08 and read 19319 times.

Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 155):
I'm surprised noone has remembered SN 548 -the first fatal crash of a Boeing 707 in commercial service.
Just outside Brussel, killing the entire US figureskating team on Feb15/61,
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 81):
One crash that was probably largely forgotten until it's 50th anniversary last February prompted several media items, was the Sabena 707 crash on approach to BRU February 15, 1961, arriving from JFK (then IDL), killing all 61 passengers and 11 crew (and one person on the ground). The passengers included the entire US figure skating team and some of their family members and supporters.

I know it's been a long and interesting thread, but it's there.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: n5014k
Posted 2011-07-26 19:11:47 and read 19241 times.

Two crashes in Maryland that I recall. Someone already mentioned the Pan Am 707 that was struck by lightning. The other was a United Viscount that flew into a flock of swans over Ellicott City. The left rear horizontal stabilizer was damaged and the plane came down on a farm. It was right after the Capital acquisition so this would be in the mid-1960's. I know some folks who remember it and they said all traces are gone - the farmer is growing his crops there. Sorry I don't have more details.

A Maryland connection: the AL DC-9 lost in a midair approaching IND was out of BWI

I few other crashes I recall:
Piedmont 727 midair over Asheville in the mid-60's
Alaska 727 on approach JNU
BOAC 707 on Mt. Fuji
Northern Consolidated F-27 when a wing separated near Iliamna, AK
Allegheny lost two Convair 580's within the space of just a week or two trying to land in Bradford, PA
AL 580 on approach New Haven

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2011-07-26 19:21:13 and read 19223 times.

Quoting n5014k (Reply 160):
The other was a United Viscount that flew into a flock of swans over Ellicott City. The left rear horizontal stabilizer was damaged and the plane came down on a farm. It was right after the Capital acquisition so this would be in the mid-1960's. I know some folks who remember it and they said all traces are gone - the farmer is growing his crops there. Sorry I don't have more details.

That would be United Flight 297

LoneStarMike

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: sparky35805
Posted 2011-07-26 19:45:36 and read 19191 times.

Capital lost two Viscounts in Maryland,one in a mid-air with a T33 and the other due to severe turbulance.The latter was on the same day in May 1959 that a Constellation crashed on landing at CRW.The United crash was in November 1962.
Eastern also lost a DC-7B on landing in fog at IDL within a week of the United Viscount crash.
Sparky

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: falstaff
Posted 2011-07-26 20:17:17 and read 19168 times.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 144):
crashed below the Eisenhower tunnel near I-70


I drove through that area dozens of times in the 1980s and never knew what happened there.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 144):
Sorry for the image quality


Looks ok to me...

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: CairnterriAIR
Posted 2011-07-26 20:40:13 and read 19127 times.

A few come to mind...

*The Avianca Boeing 707 that ran out of fuel while in a holding pattern at JFK and ended up crashing in someone's back yard out on Cove Neck, Long Island.

*The 1980 crash of a LOT Il-62 while on approach in Warsaw that ended up killing the U.S. amateur boxing team.

*A second LOT IL-62 crash involving a flight for New York City on climb out from Warsaw in 1987. I recall both of the LOT flights suffered uncontained engine failures.

*The crash of the Air New Zealand DC-10 while on a sight seeing flight to Antarctica back in 1979.

*The midair collision over Germany of a DHL 757 cargo plane and a TU-154 carrying a load of children on a Summer exchange program to Spain. The father of one of the kids who died on board ended up murdering the air traffic controller who was handling the flights that night.

*Air Florida's 737 flight into the Potomac River in 1982.

*The ultimate cold war disaster...KAL flight 007.

*And I also recall a wild three way crash between a hijacked 737 and a parked 757 and 707 in China.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: jessbp
Posted 2011-07-26 21:02:30 and read 19104 times.

Quoting n5014k (Reply 160):
BOAC 707 on Mt. Fuji

I was just thinking about that one. Wasn't it the case that the BA 707 had to taxi past the remains of a CP DC-8 that had crashed on approach to HND the night before, during a typhoon? I'm overlooking HND now, that's what jogged my memory.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: moose135
Posted 2011-07-26 21:07:20 and read 19101 times.

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Reply 164):
The Avianca Boeing 707 that ran out of fuel while in a holding pattern at JFK and ended up crashing in someone's back yard out on Cove Neck, Long Island.

That very nearly ended up in my backyard - it came down less than 4 miles from my house. And I'm on the main road heading up to that area, so we had a steady stream of police, fire, ambulances, and other rescue vehicles going by all night.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: canoecarrier
Posted 2011-07-26 21:11:37 and read 19096 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 163):

I drove through that area dozens of times in the 1980s and never knew what happened there.

I remember thinking at the time how many people drive through the tunnel everyday that have no idea that 31 people died there in '70. My guess is that most days no one knows at all.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BHMNONREV
Posted 2011-07-26 22:28:37 and read 19004 times.

Another one not mentioned was the Ozark Flight 809 FH-227 (N4215) which crashed about 2.5 miles from runway 30L at STL on July 23, 1973. 38 of 44 people on board died that day, crash was caused due to the aircraft flying thru a thunderstorm.

http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR74-05.pdf

I remember as a kid riding out to the crash site the following day, and while most of the site had been roped off there were several sets of seats in an open field on the University of Missouri-St. Louis campus. This was several hundred yards from the crash site, I would guess this suggests the plane broke apart in flight but the report states the fuselage was intact when it hit the ground..

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2011-07-26 23:14:41 and read 18946 times.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 168):
remember as a kid riding out to the crash site the following day, and while most of the site had been roped off there were several sets of seats in an open field on the University of Missouri-St. Louis campus. This was several hundred yards from the crash site, I would guess this suggests the plane broke apart in flight but the report states the fuselage was intact when it hit the ground..

The report you linked to also stated that

Quote:
All passenger seats except one broke loose from the fuselage floor structure, most of the passengers were found scattered throughout the final impact area, still strapped to their seats. Only three seattbelts failed. One belt buckle jammed in the open position; another buckle failed at the belt attachment point; the third belt separated from the seat attachment anchor.

LoneStarMike

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: jamake1
Posted 2011-07-27 00:57:30 and read 18915 times.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 168):
Another one not mentioned was the Ozark Flight 809 FH-227 (N4215) which crashed about 2.5 miles from runway 30L at STL on July 23, 1973. 38 of 44 people on board died that day, crash was caused due to the aircraft flying thru a thunderstorm.

Here is a local news story about that crash with photos of the wreckage...


http://www.kfvs12.com/story/13521438...irlines-flight-809?redirected=true

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: ajd1992
Posted 2011-07-27 09:51:27 and read 18641 times.

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Reply 164):

*The midair collision over Germany of a DHL 757 cargo plane and a TU-154 carrying a load of children on a Summer exchange program to Spain. The father of one of the kids who died on board ended up murdering the air traffic controller who was handling the flights that night.

Peter Nielsen was his name - I know a guy who's an ATC at Copenhagen airport who was in his graduating class for his ATC training and knew him well. He (I won't put his name, he wouldn't appreciate it) doesn't like to talk about it as they were good friends, and Peter had been found completely innocent by a court in Switzerland before he was murdered. In front of his wife and kid(s?), no less as well.

I believe his family moved back to Denmark (They were Danes living in Switzerland) after Peter's murder.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 9MMPD
Posted 2011-07-27 12:00:55 and read 18515 times.

I remember a Martin Air DC10 crashing in Faro in the early 90s.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: golfradio
Posted 2011-07-27 12:54:04 and read 18458 times.

In 1996 a mid-air collision involving a Saudia Boeing 747 and an Air Kazakhstan IL-76 near New Delhi, India killed all 349 passengers and crew in both aircraft.

If I am not wrong this has to be deadliest mid-air collision in terms of lives lost.

Wikipedia Link

[Edited 2011-07-27 12:59:42]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2011-07-27 13:25:15 and read 18391 times.

The Spantax CV-990 at TFN 3-12-1972 killing all. (155).

It started the black legend of TFN, but was eclipsed by the KLM-Pan Am one.

It's not even mentioned yet on this list of nearly 200 posts, and I don't think that has to do with being very well known; rather the oppossite.

http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&source...AFQjCNGizDmuYqDiFrpO4ekm9gx6VgH8JA

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: dlednicer
Posted 2011-07-27 14:21:07 and read 18321 times.

One that has fascinated me and isn't talked about much:

On June 27, 1980 an Itavia (Aero Transporti Italiani) DC-9-15 (I-TIGI), Flight 870, crashed into the Tyrrhenian Sea near the island of Ustica, about 80 miles southwest of Naples. All 81 persons aboard the aircraft were killed after it experienced severe damage in flight, broke up, plummeted to the sea, and then sank into several thousand feet of water. Accident investigators concluded that it was damaged by an explosion, probably of external origin.

The cause of the accident has never been officialy established. In the years following the accident many theories were suggested. Some theories centered around its loss being associated with a Libyan MiG-23MS Flogger, found on July 18, crashed on the northern side of Mount Sila in the Italian province of Calabria.


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Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Solent
Posted 2011-07-28 05:48:20 and read 17995 times.

Remember the Air NZ Antarctica one only to well. My father and stepmother perished on that crash. Air NZ took my sister down to Antarctica early this year to see Erebus. I went to Christchurch as a reserve for the flight. I left Christchurch the night before the big earthquake. Got to be lucky some time.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: ferengi80
Posted 2011-07-28 07:04:14 and read 17915 times.

Two pretty much forgotten accidents in the UK happened around MAN. Both involved aircraft landing.

The first was on 14th March 1957, when British European Airways flight 411, Vickers Viscount G-ALWE, overshot the runway at hit a house on Ringway Road. All 20 people on board were killed, as were a mother and child in the house.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_European_Airways_Flight_411

The second was on 4th June 1967, when British Midland Airways Canadair C-4 Argonaut G-ALHG, was approaching MAN. The aircraft had developed problems on approach, including the loss of numbers 3 and 4 engines. Instead of landing, the crew decided to go around, and try to rectify this. On the second approach, they suffered the loss of 1 and 2 engines, and, powerless, the crippled aircraft crashed on Hopes Carr, just behind Stockport Town Hall. Of the 84 on board, 72 died. The cause of the crash was found to be fuel starvation, due to flaw in the aircraft's fuel system. This still stands as the 4th worst aircraft accident in UK history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockport_air_disaster

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Jalap
Posted 2011-07-28 09:08:44 and read 17762 times.

One that came very close to being a major disaster: the Air Sahara crash at New Dehli airport.
During a training flight it crashed onto the international apron where it hit a - fortunately empty - Il86. 4 fatalities in the 737 (VT-SIA) and another 4 on the ground.

Link

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-28 09:25:09 and read 17730 times.

What about the two AI crashes on Mt. Blanc(?) What years, what planes and how far apart?

I earlier mentioned the first TWA 800, any details?

Hard to look up because

1. Dont know location......but FCO seems to come to mind

2. Searching for TWA 800 would obviously get you something else

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: richierich
Posted 2011-07-28 09:50:54 and read 17700 times.

Quoting dstc47 (Reply 9):
The Staines Trident crash is beginning to slip from memory, despite the many controversial aspects associated with it.

First aircraft accident where I knew some of the persons killed.

This accident did get lots of press coverage after it happened, but that was nearly 40 years ago. It is becoming 'forgotten' because it was on an aircraft type that is no longer in service flown by an airline that has been through a name change and other transformations. The exact reasons why Captain Key was not aware of his situation in the events that led up to the crash have never been fully determined, but I also believe that because this crash thankfully did not happen over a residential area, there are no "scars" to keep drumming it up. It's very likely Lockerbie will be remembered forever for PA103 because it did so much damage in the town. The BEA Trident crash site is a field next to a busy dual carriageway, I believe, much like it was in 1972.

Of course, to the families and friends of loved ones who perished, these crashes are never forgotten, are they?

Quoting edina (Reply 16):
UT772.......the 1989 bombing of a UTA DC10.

Considering how often I hear about PA103, I almost never hear much about this crash. I know there is a huge desert memorial near the crash site but that's about it.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
That remains the worst accident to a Canadian aircraft in terms of the number of fatalities (261). It was being operated for Nigeria Airways. It was the DC-8-61 below, originally delivered to Eastern.

So 'forgotten', I don't even remember it!

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: moose135
Posted 2011-07-28 10:17:27 and read 17660 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 179):
I earlier mentioned the first TWA 800, any details?

Here you go...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800_%281964%29

Googled "TWA Flight 800 Rome" and this was the first hit.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-07-28 15:23:23 and read 17476 times.

Quoting moose135 (Reply 181):

Thanks moose.

I've got another TWA 707 accident, but this time no details other than it was across the pond.

My mother had saved newspapers from Kennedy assassination and I remember seeing a little side item. Thats the only way I'm able to date it.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2011-07-28 16:30:17 and read 17399 times.

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Reply 164):
*Air Florida's 737 flight into the Potomac River in 1982

I remember maybe 10 years ago, seeing a few programs on discovery channel about that flight, improper usage of thrust reversers at gate to help ground crew get aircraft out of gate cause damage to both engines from FOD, didn't have proper thrust setting during takeoff roll either IIRC.


I was reading an article in Airways by Clay Taylor about his days in the cab at Stewart in Newburg, NY when a DC-8 landed without clearance and struck the tail of a DC-9 as it departed the runway...such a shame that a lot of crashes can be attributed to get-there-itis syndrom, AA md83 @ LIT is a prime example as well.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-07-28 16:46:43 and read 17372 times.

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 183):
such a shame that a lot of crashes can be attributed to get-there-itis syndrom, AA md83 @ LIT is a prime example as well.



Yeah, the other problem was forgetting to arm the speedbrakes.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2011-07-28 17:07:54 and read 17348 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 184):

Didn't they land about midway downfield as well? I remember hearing the CVR. FO was PF, told the captain he wasn't comfortable with the approach, capt said "you got, just put it down, your too fast, just put it down".........

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: dlednicer
Posted 2011-07-28 17:56:04 and read 17282 times.

Quoting moose135 (Reply 181):
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 179):
I earlier mentioned the first TWA 800, any details?

Here you go...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800_%281964%29

Googled "TWA Flight 800 Rome" and this was the first hit.

Interestingly, the pilot-incommand of this flight was Vernon W. Lowell, who went on to write Airline Safety Is a Myth (New York: Bartholomew House, 1967)

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-07-28 22:59:14 and read 17111 times.

Wow, the pilots thought engine no. 2 was reversing while it was actually producing thrust with no indication of such. How in the hell do you overcome that one? Since he was below take off speed he did the right thing, but look what happened in the end.
I hope they didn't hang this accident on the pilot.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: milesrich
Posted 2011-07-29 07:57:36 and read 16912 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 79):
National 2511, so was it a DC-6 or Electra?

How about Delta 723 at BOS, 1973


.....the year escapes me, but did United crash a 727-100 into Lake Michigan?
Quoting dlednicer (Reply 186):
nterestingly, the pilot-incommand of this flight was Vernon W. Lowell, who went on to write Airline Safety Is a Myth (New York: Bartholomew House, 1967)

And Captain Lowell recounted the TW800 Rome accident in his book.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: EDTrauma
Posted 2011-07-30 06:18:53 and read 16622 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 94):
Ooh, good one...How about the YX crash in Milwaukee, 1985.I seem to recall they only had 3 aircraft at the time.

Crashed just across the street from MidEx's old headquarters building in Oak Brook, WI. It was a true testament to the guts of the MidEx'ers of the time that the airline survived it at all. IIRC, there is only one known picture of N100ME. Still haunts me to this day.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: MEA-707
Posted 2011-07-30 06:38:40 and read 16588 times.

Quoting EDTrauma (Reply 189):
It was a true testament to the guts of the MidEx'ers of the time that the airline survived it at all

I also think what helped was that the press was not all over them the way they were on Valujet.
MidEx existed only for less then 2 years, had 3 DC-9s which were already 20 year old at the time . One crashed with a mechanical failure. In todays world with tabloids and hypes on internet they wouldn't have lasted another week.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-07-30 15:41:02 and read 16427 times.

Quoting jessbp (Reply 165):
Quoting n5014k (Reply 160):
BOAC 707 on Mt. Fuji

I was just thinking about that one. Wasn't it the case that the BA 707 had to taxi past the remains of a CP DC-8 that had crashed on approach to HND the night before, during a typhoon? I'm overlooking HND now, that's what jogged my memory.

Yes, March 5, 1966. Photo below of the BOAC 707-436 taxiing for takeoff past the wreckage of the CP DC-8-43 that crashed on landing the day before, killing 64 (8 survivors). About 15 minutes later all 124 aboard the BOAC 707 were also dead when it broke apart in severe turbulence near Mount Fuji. About 2/3 of the passengers were Americans, part of an incentive group tour for Thermo King dealers who won the trip for meeting sales targets. That wasn't a good few weeks at HND. A month earlier, February 4, 1966, an All Nippon 727-100 crashed into Tokyo Bay approaching HND, killing all 133 aboard.



Interesting item by BOAC's manager in Japan at the time.
http://betteronacamel.com/Japan-The-...uji-Disaster-by-James-Wilson-1966-

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Aesma
Posted 2011-07-30 18:23:53 and read 16321 times.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):
It also really depends on who were on board. The Afriqiyah A-330 crash of May 2010 was major news in the Netherlands as 70 Dutch were on board, but elsewhere or on Airliners.net it didn't get one percent of the attention of the Air France A-330.

In the same vein, there is West Caribbean Airways Flight 708 that crashed in 2005 in Venezuela.

MD-82 with poor crew, 8 crew and 152 passengers killed. Nearly all the passengers were French citizens from Martinique, meaning that even in metropolitan France this crash has been forgotten...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Caribbean_Airways_Flight_708

Quoting edina (Reply 16):
UT772.......the 1989 bombing of a UTA DC10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTA_Fli...t_772

I was going to mention this one, especially considering the current action in Libya, and how often PA103 is mentioned on this forum.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Geezer
Posted 2011-07-31 11:21:56 and read 16117 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
American Airlines flight 383: November 8, 1965 was a NYC-CVG flight on a 727-123; The aircraft crashed into a hillside on final approach to the airport killing 58 out the 62 people on board.
Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
TWA flight 159: November 6, 1967 was a NYC-CVG-LAX flight on a 707; Crashed after an attempt to abort take-off after having clipped a Delta DC-9 which was reported to have cleared the runway but hadn't. 1 passenger was killed. Just 14 days later.....
Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
TWA flight 128: November 20, 1967 was a LAX-CVG-PIT-BOS flight on a Convair 880; The aircraft struck trees and crashed short of the runway after being cleared for the final approach, killing 70 of the 82 passengers and crew aboard. A close friend of the family's grandparents were actually killed in this crash and there is apparently a memorial near the airport for this crash as well as the American one.

I remember the above three accidents very well ! From approx. 1962 to 1969 I worked at the Texaco bulk terminal on River Road, just west of downtown Cincinnati, first as a tank truck driver, and later, operating the loading rack and pumping barges. About a mile down-river, and maybe 1/4 south of the Ohio River is Greater Cincinnati Airport. On the evening of 11-8-65, at approx. 6 PM, I was on the loading rack, loading petroleum products into several tank trucks. Suddenly, we heard a tremendous explosion coming from "down-river"; within a few minutes, there were many emergency vehicles heading west on River Road; ( on the wrong side of the river, as it turned out ) Within a short time we learned that a B 727 had crashed into the hillside on the south side of the Ohio River, on final approach to CVG, less than 1/2 mile south of the river.

I was surprised to hear that 4 survived; I only recall that a female F/A survived, but I don't recall the other three.

I have read quite a few books about airplane crashes, but I have only read of very few references to these three incidents.

Almost exactly two years later, the B 707 crashed while attempting to abort take-off. The next day, an empty tank truck from F.J. Egner ( a commercial petroleum hauler ) had been dispatched to the crash site to off-load about 4000 gal. of Av-Jet A from the 707; due to structural damage to the A/C, the fuel tanks were torn open, and the off-loaded jet fuel was contaminated with firefighting foam. After pumping the contaminated fuel into the Egner truck, they sent it to Texaco ( not knowing what else to do with it ) When the driver arrived at Texaco, it was after the office management had gone home for the day. I was operating the loading rack on the evening shift. and had to spend half the shift on the phone, trying to find someone to tell me what to do with the 4000 gal of contaminated fuel. After aviation products are off-loaded into storage tanks, you can't ship the product until it's sampled and the sample results are returned back from the lab. To make a "long story short", Texaco had no place to put 4000 gal of contaminated jet fuel, and the carrier needed their tank truck empty for other "business"; I finally spent the rest of my shift trying to find "someone" willing to buy 4000 gal of contaminated kerosene, for "a song, and sing your own tune" ! I came close, but in the end, they finally ended up sending the tank truck back to it's terminal; I'm not sure where the fuel "ended up", but probably on the ground some place! All of which served to "burn" that "incident" into my memory forever !

The other surprise in reading this thread was, I had forgotten that it was only two weeks later that the CV 880 crashed on final approach, with 70 fatalities.

An interesting "side note" to all of this is................at this point-in-time, there were only ( as I recall ) three types of jet airliners in service; the B 707 was first, followed by the DC-8 and the CV-880. Delta was still operating DC-7's. ( which was our only customer for 145 octane av gas,) and AA was still operating DC-6's ( which used the much more common green 100 octane av gas.)

All told, I think CVG had all of 6 jet arrival - departures per day in "those days", the other "dozens & dozens" being " piston / recip" A/C;

How times have changed ! Thanks to the OP for this very interesting thread.............................

Charley

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2011-07-31 22:24:03 and read 15875 times.

Though it is far from forgotten its interesting that the syndicated radio show Coast To Coast AM has never done any shows or features on Eastern flight 401. After this tragic crash in the Florida Everglades, parts from the L 1011 were recovered and recycled. On the planes that received these parts, passengers and crews saw ghosts of the departed crew of 401. Coast to Coast AM is all about conspiracies, the paranormal etc. Ghostly apparitions and the whole crash of Eastern 401 would be prime material. Throw in the fact that Eastern management tried to supress this information to the extent of promising employees would be disciplined for talking to the press or discussing the crash.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r17/BNolfi/miscellaneous/Conference071508a.jpg

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: AR385
Posted 2011-08-01 01:16:27 and read 15795 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
The worst crash in Canada itself was a DC-8-63 being operated by US charter carrier Arrow Air, carrying US military personnel from CAI to Fort Campbell, KY with fuel stops at CGN and YQX. It crashed just after takeoff from YQX in December 1985, killing all 256 aboard. Don't think a definite cause was determined. Inadequate de-icing was considered one possibility.

If I recall correctly, the team that did the investigation had to add a chapter where one of the team members dissented from the probable cause. His theory was that the plane was actually brought down by an explosion, either a bomb planted on the plane, or some ammunition being carried by one of the armed forces members travelling as passengers. His evidence for this was a hole with some sort of explosive residue and its shape that was located in the wreckage of what was one of the cargo holds.

The rest of the investigative team determined the hole was made as a consequence of the impact but this member could not be swayed.

An important crash in Mexico that is not mentioned yet in the thread, but I believe that to this day it is the deadliest in this country was MX 940, a 727-264ADV XA-MEM routing MEX-PVR-LAX that crashed about 35 mins. after take-off . The left main gear brake was overheated during the take-off run, causing one of the left main gear tires exploding into the wheel well at FL 310, rupturing fuel, hydraulic and electrical lines and starting a fire. Eventually it rendered the plane uncontrollable, killing 167 people. It crashed into a mountain at 9,000 ft. The tire had been filled with air, not Nitrogen. The air inside, the heat and the pressure of the tire at that altitude generated the explosion.

It was one of the last 727s built and among the newest in the MX fleet.

This accident struck personally as my father lost his long time secretary on that flight along with her husband and her three children. They were heading to Disneyland.

The other one, was AM 498, the one that collided with the Cherokee plane over LA. It´s been mentioned here, but that crashed resulted in TCAS regulation and mandatory installation that to this day has saved a lot of lives. It destroyed 5 houses and killed 15 people on the ground. The pilots had no idea what had happened and they threw both engines into reverse thrust to slow their fall. The sound for those at ground zero must have been deafening.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2011-08-01 10:58:41 and read 15605 times.

And what about the nearly collission between JAL 744 and JAL DC-10? in 2001 near Tokyo?. It was very close to being the deadliest accident surpassing Tenerife, and although thankfully it wasn't, it is actually considered an accident as there were several injured persons in the evasive manouvre. I think it's quite unknown for what it could have been.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20010131-2

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Geezer
Posted 2011-08-01 18:32:39 and read 15408 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 194):
the syndicated radio show Coast To Coast AM

I put that program into the same category as Jerry Springer....................................

Charley

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: N202PA
Posted 2011-08-05 07:32:50 and read 15165 times.

One that gets little attention is the 1974 crash of TWA flight 514 just outside Washington, DC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_514

TWA Flight 514, registration N54328, was a Boeing 727-231 en route from Indianapolis, Indiana, and Columbus, Ohio, to Washington Dulles International that crashed into Mount Weather, Virginia, on December 1, 1974. All 85 passengers and 7 crew members were killed.

The flight was originally destined for Washington National Airport. However, the plane diverted to Dulles when high crosswinds, east at 28 knots and gusting to 49, prevented safe operations on the main north-south runway at Washington National. The flight was being vectored for a non-precision instrument approach to runway 12 at Dulles. Air traffic controllers cleared the flight down to 7,000 feet (2,100 m) before clearing them for the approach while not on a published segment.

The jetliner began a descent to 1,800 feet (550 m) shown on the first checkpoint for the published approach. The data recorder indicated there was some confusion in the cockpit over whether they were still under a radar controlled approach segment which would allow them to descend safely. After reaching 1,800 feet (550 m) there were some 100 to 200-foot (61 m) altitude deviations which the flight crew discussed as encountering heavy downdrafts and reduced visibility in snow. The plane impacted Mount Weather at 1,670 feet (510 m) above sea level.


An overview of the crash scene. The point of initial impact was just above where the crowd is standing on the road:


The stand of trees the aircraft mowed down right before hitting the ridge, taken shortly after the accident:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/TWA_514_1s.jpg

The rock outcropping the 727 hit and demolished, causing the fuel tanks to rupture and explode:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/TWA_514_2s.jpg

Growing up in Fairfax County, just a few miles away from the site, I've always felt a closeness with this accident ever since I found out about it when I was a kid. Eventually visited the site a few times and left a memorial book there years ago.

What was especially sad about this crash was how preventable it was. Putting aside the "what-ifs" (like what if the weather was better and DCA was open, what if the plane was delayed by weather out of IND or CMH, etc.), if the pilots had better familiarity with the terrain around IAD, or if ATC had given the pilots better guidance on approach, this never would have happened. As it was, the 727 missed clearing the ridge by approximately 50 feet - if the pilots had delayed descent by a few seconds, or if they had reacted earlier to the ground contact horn, 92 people would have lived, many of them likely raising families of their own - people who never got a chance to live because of a simple mistake.

Also, this was not the first time an aircraft had crashed on the exact same ridge line on approach to a Washington airport:

http://www.shannondale.org/forum/con...154-Capital-Airliner-Crash-of-1947

Anyway, many years, there was little marking the crash site. Finally, after many years of a makeshift cross marking the site, a permanent marker was installed on the rock outcropping earlier this year:

http://www.clarkedailynews.com/21208

For those interested, the story of the crash and the people who died aboard 514 was documented in the book "Sound of Impact", by Adam Shaw:

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Impact-Adam-Shaw/dp/0670658405

[Edited 2011-08-05 07:39:53]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: isitsafenow
Posted 2011-08-05 11:17:58 and read 15019 times.

Quoting N202PA (Reply 198):
TWA Flight 514, registration N54328, was a Boeing 727-231 en route from Indianapolis, Indiana, and Columbus, Ohio, to Washington Dulles International

DESTINATION INCORRECT....Flight was bound for DCA and DIVERTED due to DCA weather to IAD.
safe.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: OzarkD9S
Posted 2011-08-05 11:55:01 and read 14981 times.

Quoting jamake1 (Reply 170):


Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 168):
Another one not mentioned was the Ozark Flight 809 FH-227 (N4215) which crashed about 2.5 miles from runway 30L at STL on July 23, 1973. 38 of 44 people on board died that day, crash was caused due to the aircraft flying thru a thunderstorm.

Here is a local news story about that crash with photos of the wreckage...


http://www.kfvs12.com/story/13521438...irlines-flight-809?redirected=true

One thing rarely mentioned about that crash, probably due to the bad taste, was the fact that the looters got to the victims
before the rescue teams. Ex-OZ people still go on about that.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: isitsafenow
Posted 2011-08-05 12:31:58 and read 14929 times.

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 199):

LET ME CORRECT MY ERROR
Flight was bound for DCA and diverted to IAD due to wx at DCA
sorry for the confusion in post Number199.
safe

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: N202PA
Posted 2011-08-05 17:02:52 and read 14822 times.

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 201):
LET ME CORRECT MY ERROR
Flight was bound for DCA and diverted to IAD due to wx at DCA

Correct; this was copied and pasted from Wikipedia, so it should be corrected on there...but it does explain the nature of the diversion in paragraph 2.

It's been a few years since I last read Sound of Impact, but if I remember right, Indianapolis had just been hit by a snowstorm the previous day and yet 514 made it out. Seems like weather was bad in a lot of places that day.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2011-08-05 17:36:41 and read 14801 times.

TWA 514 was the accident that finally led to the development of GPWS. Agruably the greatest safety improvement of the last 30 years.

That same day, December 1, 1974 a NW 727-200 crashed on a ferry flight from JFK-BUF, to pick up the Buffalo Bills. Only the three pilots were aboard. Somehow, the pitot heat switches were left off on the after start check list. During the climb out icing was encountered, the pitot heads iced over and the crew started getting confusing information - the airspeed increased, the mach warning bell went off and finally the stick shaker, all at the same time. At 26,000 feet they stalled, entered a steep flat descent and crashed only 83 seconds later. It's almost a mirror image of AF 447.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19741201-1

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2011-08-05 18:13:57 and read 14776 times.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 44):
I still can't believe the media after Alaska 261 went down. A reporter dressed like a priest in Seattle, so he could enter the family grief room at the airport. How low can you go?

You'd be surprised how horrible people in general can be following an accident. I was at work in the Phoenix Reservations Center on the afternoon that AS 261 crashed. I was a Lead Agent at the time and took numerous calls from people who said things like:

"Do you fly from Puerto Vallarta to just outside Los Angeles?"
"How many kids have you killed today?"

What was unexpected - and wonderful - was the outpouring of support we received from our counterparts at other carriers. Agents from WN and HP sent over food, drinks and banners signed by their employees. American Airlines bought us pizza from Domino's - and not just PHX, I mean SYSTEMWIDE. Everywhere that had an AS presence, Domino's showed up, courtesy of American Airlines.

But the people who worked that day carried scars for quite awhile; sometimes folks forget that many of the "victims" of an accident weren't on the plane, and didn't know a soul onboard.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: N202PA
Posted 2011-08-05 19:05:57 and read 14724 times.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 203):
That same day, December 1, 1974 a NW 727-200 crashed on a ferry flight from JFK-BUF, to pick up the Buffalo Bills.

Minor point, but it was a ferry flight to pick up the Baltimore Colts, who had just played the Bills that day.

A terrible day in aviation, to be sure.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: B727LVR
Posted 2011-08-05 19:38:06 and read 14700 times.

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 3):
Don't forget TWA 260 out of ABQ. One of the few if only site where the public can still view the wreckage.

Here is a video of that site:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ehY2ReSRQ


I have not made the hike up the hill, but I would really like to, I live only a few minutes from the bottom of that ridge.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: PROSA
Posted 2011-08-05 19:43:30 and read 14691 times.

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
As it was, the 727 missed clearing the ridge by approximately 50 feet - if the pilots had delayed descent by a few seconds, or if they had reacted earlier to the ground contact horn, 92 people would have lived, many of them likely raising families of their own

Then there's the old wreck site just below the summit of Mt. Charleston near Las Vegas. The aircraft managed to hit near the peak of the tallest mountain for 100+ miles around - *very* bad luck.

http://www.birdandhike.com/Hike/Mt_Char/South_Loop/_SLoop.htm

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: B727LVR
Posted 2011-08-05 20:08:22 and read 14684 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
The only survivors were aboard the PA B-747

There was a survivor of the KLM 747. The only reason she survived was because she chose not to reboard the flight to be with her boyfriend, since Tenerife was her ultimate destination. I dont know abouty you guys, but that would be something that would be hard to live with.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2011-08-05 21:05:50 and read 14635 times.

Quoting N202PA (Reply 205):
Minor point, but it was a ferry flight to pick up the Baltimore Colts, who had just played the Bills that day.

Thanks, I've been laboring under that misconception for years.

It's my understanding much of the wreckage was left on site at Bear Mountain.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: aggieflyboi04
Posted 2011-08-06 00:08:34 and read 14564 times.

Sept 29, 1959 Braniff Flt 542 en route from Houston to Dallas crashed in Buffalo, Texas. Aircraft was an L-188 Electra 29 passengers and 5 crew members killed...my grand parents talked about it occassionly after I went to work for the airlines.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: isitsafenow
Posted 2011-08-06 08:07:49 and read 14418 times.

Quoting aggieflyboi04 (Reply 210):
Sept 29, 1959 Braniff Flt 542 en route from Houston to Dallas crashed in Buffalo, Texas

Whirl Mode was the problem. N9705C was delived to Braniff Sept 18 and went down Sept 29th.
safe

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: josekmlb
Posted 2011-08-06 11:41:51 and read 14285 times.

I did not see anyone say it on here but I might of missed it. JAL123 the B747 that had its tail section ripped off while the pilots fought the plane for 30mins then crashed into a mountain killing all but 4 pax out of 507 or something like.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2011-08-06 12:06:25 and read 14261 times.

And I didn't see the Chicago O'Hare's AA DC-10 either.

This thread is so "successful" that accidents that don't appear here, automatically become "forgotten"

Something needs to be done, I think.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-08-06 12:13:42 and read 14240 times.

Quoting aggieflyboi04 (Reply 210):
Sept 29, 1959 Braniff Flt 542 en route from Houston to Dallas crashed in Buffalo, Texas. Aircraft was an L-188 Electra 29 passengers and 5 crew members killed...my grand parents talked about it occassionly after I went to work for the airlines.

And they lost another L-188 on the same route in 1968, BN 352. The "official" cause was flying into a thunderstorm cell, but there are those out there who think it was sabotage caused by the US Government for one reason or another.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Argonaut
Posted 2011-08-06 15:54:07 and read 14095 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 92):
If it happened today the airline would probably be grounded and the negative publicity would be so adverse it probably wouldn't survive.

I've occasionally had the same thought, especially about the long list of Pan Am 707 accidents.

In a similar vein: BOAC had four fatal crashes in 1954 alone, plus one the previous year, one more in 1955, then yet another in 1956. Seven in just over three years (May 53 to June 56). We've come a long way, thank goodness.

Two of those 1954 crashes were Comets, tragedies that are still often talked about today. But almost no-one ever seems to remember that in the mere three months between them, a company Constellation went down on landing at Singapore. The year ended with a Stratocruiser disaster at Prestwick. Not BOAC's best year.

Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 100):
Nobody seems to remember the British Midland flight that crashed at Stockport in 1967

Not quite nobody... This poster, for one, remembers it well. Captain Marlow managed to put the plane down in the only clear space right smack in the city centre. As another poster mentioned, there was a thread about it a few years ago. (BTW, check my username...)

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 148):
N709PA, IIRC, which was a VERY early 707 bird.

Not only that, but historic, too. I believe it was the very aircraft that operated the first 707 service (NY-Paris, Oct. 58).


rj

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Group51
Posted 2011-08-06 17:36:49 and read 14017 times.

I was appalled to learn about this disaster and the likely causes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana_Flight_455

Next time I'm in Barbados, I'm going to visit the memorial.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Flaps
Posted 2011-08-06 17:49:00 and read 13998 times.

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 213):
This thread is so "successful" that accidents that don't appear here, automatically become "forgotten"

I was kind of thinking the same thing. I've studied aviation safety and crashes for many years and very few of the crashes listed above strike me as forgotten. Then again, because of my history I'm approaching this from a different perspective than many of the posters. That said, unless I missed something Im amazed that no one listed US 427 outside of PIT on September 8, 1994. I never would have thought of that as "forgotten" especially in light of the enormous controversy that ensued but at least as far as a.net goes it appeares to be.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2011-08-06 18:33:30 and read 13962 times.

USAir at CLT , also in 1994.

CO 707 near Unionville, Missouri in 1962(?) First successful bombing of a commercial jet.

World Airways DC-10 at BOS in 1982

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: PROSA
Posted 2011-08-06 18:44:24 and read 13950 times.

Quoting N202PA (Reply 198):
One that gets little attention is the 1974 crash of TWA flight 514 just outside Washington, DC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_514

TWA Flight 514, registration N54328, was a Boeing 727-231 en route from Indianapolis, Indiana, and Columbus, Ohio, to Washington Dulles International that crashed into Mount Weather, Virginia, on December 1, 1974. All 85 passengers and 7 crew members were killed.

If I'm not mistaken, some conspiracy nuts claimed that communications equipment in the secret Mount Weather facility interfered with the aircraft's navigation equipment and caused the crash.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2011-08-07 01:18:58 and read 13826 times.

Quoting PROSA (Reply 219):
If I'm not mistaken, some conspiracy nuts claimed that communications equipment in the secret Mount Weather facility interfered with the aircraft's navigation equipment and caused the crash

Yes, nuts is correct. Completely without any basis.

In the industry, TWA 514 is one of the most influential accidents of the jet age. It directly led to the perfection of GPWS as the last line of defense of controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) crashes.

Since GPWS was mandated in 1977, no CFIT accident with a GPWS equipped airliner has occurred in the U.S. - with one exception - the National 727 CFIT into the water at PNS in 1978, where the crew inhibited the GPWS warning.

Prior to GPWS here's a short list from memory, all with fatalties. Turbine equipment only.

AA Electra at LGA, 1959
BO F-27 at LAS, 1964
WCA DC-9 at PDX, 1966
AA 727 at CVG, 1965
UA 727 at Chicago, 1965
TW CV880 at CVG, 1967
NE FH-227 New Hampshire, 1968
MO FH-227 Glenn Falls, 1969
AAA CV580 at BDF, 1968
AAA CV580 at BDF, 1969
AAA CV580 at New Haven, 1971
EA L10ll at MIA, 1972
EA DC-9 at CLT, 1974
TW 727 at IAD, 1974
UA DC-8 at SLC 1977 (cargo aircraft)

There's more, I'm sure. GPWS is the most significant technical development of the last 40 years. TCAS is the second.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: isitsafenow
Posted 2011-08-07 07:37:39 and read 13709 times.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 220):
UA 727 at Chicago, 1965


Now here was strange one. The 727-100 went into Lake Michigan almost 15 miles from shore coming into O'Hare.
It was a clear summer night August of 1965. It was believe the high flap setting of this plane, an ANA 727 and the UA 727-100 at SLC was the culprit. It resulted in a faster-than-average rapid decent.
This lead to different flap settings instructed by the FAA and Boeing on the model 100 while on approach.

safe

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-08-07 11:04:35 and read 13584 times.

I think we are repeating some of these accidents over and over again....

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: srbmod
Posted 2011-08-07 11:12:46 and read 13578 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 58):

What about the DL Convair 880 lost at ATL 1960?

Found an article from the time about that one:

http://www3.gendisasters.com/georgia...tliner-crashes-on-takeoff-may-1960

I also found on that site about a crash of an Air South Beech 99 outside of Monroe, GA in 1969:

http://www3.gendisasters.com/georgia...-ga-commuter-plane-crash-july-1969

There was a DL flight that was in a mid-air collision at Columbus, GA in 1947 that killed 8 Delta employees (It was a company survey flight), including the VP of Operations at the time, who was flying the a/c.

http://www3.gendisasters.com/georgia...s-collide-over-airport%2C-apr-1947

There's an article on Southern 242 as well:

http://www3.gendisasters.com/georgia...airways-jetliner-crash%2C-apr-1977

That site has a lot of articles regarding plane crashes from all over the country.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2011-08-07 12:01:38 and read 13542 times.

Isitsafenow - actually, this one was very different from the other accidents you mentioned. The UA 727 flew into Lake Michigan at well over 200 knots, flaps and slats retracted. United insisted on using the same three-pointer altimeter used on the piston fleet, instead of the more modern counter-drum type, still used today. A UA DC-8-61 descending into LAX from HNL nearly flew into the Pacific Ocean in 1967 because the crew misread the old style three pointer altimeter by 10,000 feet. They thought they were level at 10,000 slowing to 250 knots when in fact they were just above the ocean (it was at night). A very near thing indeed, and is now thought to be the cause of the first 727 crash at Chicago.

The other three accidents were due to unstabilzed approaches in an engines unspooled condition. Flaps 40 was never banned by the FAA or Boeing in the 727, but some airlines elected to do so - TWA and I believe NWA did.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: isitsafenow
Posted 2011-08-07 13:46:20 and read 13447 times.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 224):

Thanks for your post....that's what I really like about A-net...you learn!
When you mentioned the DC8 that almost went into the ocean, I then remembered the UA 727-QC that took off from LAX and lost all three genartors...a rare event, indeed. That caused all electrical to fail(cockpit). The plane took off toward the west, got it turned around back toward LAX and it went down with all lost.
N7434C...Jan 1969.

The same month, same year,SAS lost a DC8-62 into the pacific approaching LAX............odd.
LN-MOO
safe

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2011-08-07 13:52:24 and read 13440 times.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 217):
That said, unless I missed something Im amazed that no one listed US 427 outside of PIT on September 8, 1994.

Don't remember the poster or reply ( this thread is really long, in time and replies ), but somebody mentioned early the UA585 and then made the usual connection with the crash of US427 in Aliquippa, PA. It is very common to talk about UA585, US427 and Eastwind 517 like one single subject since the three have a strong link in the 737's rudder problems.

Rgds.

G.

[Edited 2011-08-07 13:53:29]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: charlienorth
Posted 2011-08-07 17:53:36 and read 13342 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 222):
I think we are repeating some of these accidents over and over again....

  

Agreed..while it is interestind pretty much all air disasters are forgotton in time, only remembered by those who knew people on the flight, witnissed it, had something to do withe flight, a really good place to find long forgotten crashes is in the DOT library historic aircraft accidents 1934-1965, don't have exact link but it has some interesting accident reports most of which are definitely forgotten air disasters.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2011-08-07 19:34:09 and read 13238 times.

Another decent source is wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor..._accidents_and_incidents_templates

Each year has it's own link listing the major accidents for that year. You can click on any accident and many of them will at least have the NTSB report as a reference.

LoneStarMike

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: jamake1
Posted 2011-08-07 21:29:26 and read 13139 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 226):
The same month, same year,SAS lost a DC8-62 into the pacific approaching LAX............odd.
LN-MOO

See reply #15 in this thread. I posted a link with pics of the ill-fated SAS DC-8 resting in Santa Monica Bay.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-08-08 07:32:11 and read 12919 times.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 228):
nother decent source is wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor..._accidents_and_incidents_templates

Each year has it's own link listing the major accidents for that year. You can click on any accident and many of them will at least have the NTSB report as a reference.

That link contains more crash reports than I have seen anywhere except for the NTSB site. It's loaded with literally lots of forgotten crashes.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: PROSA
Posted 2011-08-08 17:55:09 and read 12702 times.

A year or two after the crash of US 427 I read a magazine article about the investigation, and one thing that jumped right out at me was that the first firefighters on the scene found, among much else, human viscera hanging from the trees. Until then I had never quite thought of a crash having such effects. It certainly was a sobering thing to read and left quite the mental image.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: N202PA
Posted 2011-08-08 18:29:21 and read 12678 times.

Quoting PROSA (Reply 231):
A year or two after the crash of US 427 I read a magazine article about the investigation, and one thing that jumped right out at me was that the first firefighters on the scene found, among much else, human viscera hanging from the trees.

I had the same experience after reading the book about the crash of Turkish flt. #981, which also was an aircraft that flew straight into the ground and exploded (for different reasons). That was an eye-opener. You have to really feel for the people who have to clean up the bodies from any crash, but especially one where the accident was so violent there were no bodies intact afterward.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-08-08 22:40:27 and read 12546 times.

If you dig into some of the NTSB reports to find out what an aircraft went through before striking the ground, you have to wonder if the people in it were already dead by then. This is especially true with mid air breakups.

In the case of NW 705, a B720 that broke up near a thunderstorm out of MIA. The aircraft experienced up to +3.0 to -3.5 G forces. Then the wings snapped off and the fuselage split apart even before it hit the ground. After all that was anyone even concious?

And in the case of BN 250 pretty much the same thing happened but the aircraft went into a flat spin after tumbling down for awhile. I'm willing to bet that there were a lot of broken necks from all that.

Then of course we have the fuselage that shreds everything when it hits the ground.

IMHO it's not the actual crash that makes these incidents so terrible, but what the people went through immediately before hand that really makes you feel sorry for them.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2011-08-08 23:25:58 and read 12502 times.

This thread has taken a macabre turn...

On March 17, 1960 Northwest 710, a Lockheed Electra was enroute from MDY to MIA at 18,000 feet. Suddenly, clear air turbulence was encountered, triggering the infamous whirl-mode interaction between the prop/nacelle and the wing. In less than a minute the wobbling propeller/nacelle matched the flutter frequency of the left wing. It failed, followed by the right wing. Like a spent bullet,the Electra arced over into a vertical dive, reaching 618 mph in it's return to earth. The terror the passengers felt as they reached zero G during the wingless descent would have terrorfying beyond imagination. The view of the ground rushing toward the pilot, F/O and F/E gives me nightmares.

Only a few bodies were indentified from the smoking crater that NW 710 created after the 90 seconds it took to plummet to earth. I feel for the 63 human souls and what they went through...most horrifying!

[Edited 2011-08-08 23:31:01]

[Edited 2011-08-08 23:33:11]

[Edited 2011-08-08 23:37:16]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: milesrich
Posted 2011-08-09 00:07:32 and read 12467 times.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Trans...irlines/Douglas-DC-9-14/0526114/L/

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 225):
Thanks for your post....that's what I really like about A-net...you learn!
When you mentioned the DC8 that almost went into the ocean, I then remembered the UA 727-QC that took off from LAX and lost all three genartors...a rare event, indeed. That caused all electrical to fail(cockpit). The plane took off toward the west, got it turned around back toward LAX and it went down with all lost.
N7434C...Jan 1969.


It was N7434U, not C. Also, the 1965 United 727 crashes were 727-22's, not 122's. N7030U was written off at SLC, November 11, 1965, and N7036U was written off on August 16, 1965 after it flew into Lake Michigan. It had been in service only 2 months.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: iberiadc852
Posted 2011-08-09 05:29:24 and read 12350 times.

What about the China Airlines 676 in 1998 in Taiwan?. I don't know if exactly forgotten, as It's relatively recent and many people may remember it, but I recall I was vigilant to read the official reports and never saw them. Still I'm surfing to look, but find nothing about the final cause of the accident.

Anyone knows has more information about it?.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: isitsafenow
Posted 2011-08-09 06:27:12 and read 12293 times.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 235):
1965 United 727 crashes were 727-22's

I didn't say it was a 122. The Pacific Ocean loss was a model 100QC....so say the Boeing book AND the United QC's were registered numbered in the low N74xx while the 727 model 100's were registered numbered N70xx. Most of the 727-200's were N76xx with some exceptions.
safe

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-08-09 06:40:29 and read 12277 times.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 234):
This thread has taken a macabre turn...

I didn't intend for it to come out that way. I think that even people who fly tend not to think of these kind of things. As a pilot I view it as a reminder that safety comes first, always. If it happened to somebody else, it could happen to you too.

BTW, some of our neighbors were on NW 705. After the accident their house sat vacant for at least a year afterwards with just a single light on in the front window, day and night. It was eerie.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-08-09 08:15:24 and read 12220 times.

to add to my previous post:

While it does bother crash investigators to go through a crash site they have to view the incident in a more clinical and scientific way than your average citizen does. A lot of people who do this for a living say that you will always remember the smells and odors associated with the incident.

I was at the UA 533 crash site at MDW about an hour after it crashed. The only smell I remember was burning lumber, plastics and kerosene.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 234):
Only a few bodies were identified from the smoking crater that NW 710 created after the 90 seconds it took to plummet to earth. I feel for the 63 human souls and what they went through...most horrifying!

According to the book written about the Electra problem, The Electra Story by Robert Sterling they just pushed dirt over the wreckage which was largely melted into one big pile, bodies and all. And since the Electra's exploded in mid air before crashing, how many people were killed in the initial explosion?

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2011-08-09 08:26:39 and read 12210 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 239):
I was at the UA 533 crash site at MDW about an hour after it crashed.

This should bring back memories, then

Chicago Fire Dept. - Midway Airport United Flight 553 Crash in 1972

The first part seems to be right after the crash. The second part (at night) has no sound.

LoneStarMike

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: type-rated
Posted 2011-08-09 08:47:26 and read 12180 times.

By the time we got there, the area was already roped off. But we were about 6 houses down from the actual site. It was a cloudy, cold, wet day. We only stayed about 10 minutes and left, there really was nothing to see. I was working at MDW at the time, just hanging around the office. All I remember was how surreal it was seeing a 737 tail sitting in the middle of a neighborhood.

Thanks for the video link, I think that video is used for CFD training and not for consumption by the public.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: desediez
Posted 2011-08-09 08:48:36 and read 12172 times.

I remember that Aeropostal of Venezuela (LAV) lost two Lockheed Constellations during the 50's. One near New York due to a free spinning prop after an engine fault, killing all on board. The second one crashed due to a navigation error near CCS into the mountains at the village of Galipán also without survivors.

Maybe someone does know some more details of those two crashes.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: N202PA
Posted 2011-08-09 09:27:17 and read 12114 times.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 234):

This thread has taken a macabre turn...

Macabre, perhaps, but I've always felt that it's disrespectful to the dead in these accidents that we gloss over how they died. I don't think it should be dwelled on or sensationalized in any way, but by pretending that nothing macabre happened to them is like a willful attempt to forget that something awful happened as well as the magnitude of the tragedy.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: N202PA
Posted 2011-08-09 10:17:14 and read 12046 times.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 234):
Only a few bodies were indentified from the smoking crater that NW 710 created after the 90 seconds it took to plummet to earth. I feel for the 63 human souls and what they went through...most horrifying!

If you can stand it, there is a video recreation of the accident showing the view from the cockpit here:

http://www.emarkay.com/Electra/

Not sure how accurate it is, as it appears to have been done in Flight Simulator, but it's probably pretty realistic.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 233):
If you dig into some of the NTSB reports to find out what an aircraft went through before striking the ground, you have to wonder if the people in it were already dead by then. This is especially true with mid air breakups.

At least in the case of Pan Am 103, it's likely that a large number of the passengers were alive in the immediate aftermath of the explosion. It's likely that though most would have lost consciousness due to lack of air, some may have awakened during the fall at lower altitudes - which is truly horrifying.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2011-08-09 10:22:13 and read 12033 times.

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 225):
The same month, same year,SAS lost a DC8-62 into the pacific approaching LAX............odd.

Actually SAS was 5 days before the UA accident that you refer to.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 220):
GPWS is the most significant technical development of the last 40 years. TCAS is the second.

Amen. EGPWS ("Enhanced") is even better. It fills a few holes in the old radio altimeter-only GPWS, such as the ability to detect if you are going to hit the ground near a runway (GPWS would inhibit alerts when in landing configuration, even if you weren't going to land on the runway).

I was told that literally days after EGPWS started being installed on Boeing airplanes, EGPWS had a save of an AF 777 in GIG. Apparently, the ILS was malfunctioning and the airplane would have crashed short of the runway. But EGPWS gave the Pull-Up alert. 250 people on that airplane woke up alive the next day because of EGPWS.

EGPWS has had countless "saves" such as a 737 near TUS and others. Same with TCAS. Don't forget PWS (Predictive Windshear) either.

The next thing being worked on are solutions for Runway Safety such as Runway Incursions and Runway Excursions. Fortunately, everyone survived the AA and Caribbean runway overruns, but there are people who have been working on hopefully reducing those kind of things in the future too.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: richierich
Posted 2011-08-09 10:51:25 and read 11995 times.

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 208):
There was a survivor of the KLM 747. The only reason she survived was because she chose not to reboard the flight to be with her boyfriend, since Tenerife was her ultimate destination. I dont know abouty you guys, but that would be something that would be hard to live with.

I know this has come up before but does she really count as a survivor? Despite probably being on the passenger manifest, she wasn't on the plane at the time of the crash. In my opinion, she is no more of a survivor than the person who shows up late and misses a doomed flight or perhaps the passengers on the last successful flight of a particular aircraft. They are not survivors, they are lucky victims of circumstance.

Needless to say the 1977 Tenerife crash has been the subject of many TV shows and articles over the years. I really don't think it can be called 'forgotten', any more than PA103 and TW800, for example. Most of the "forgotten" crashes people are mentioning on this thread are only lost due to time or relevance. As years go by, collective memory fades and only those directly affected hold on to the painful emotions and recollections. Eventually, even those pass. A tragic crash from 50 years ago is rarely going to have a relevance today, except as a historical footnote perhaps - I was particularly interested in the TWA and United collision over Brooklyn in 1961 that recently saw its 50th anniversary. The personal stories and recollections of witnesses who were young then but old now was fascinating, and I especially felt for the family of young boy who initially survived the crash (and was conscious) but succumbed to his injuries a few days later.

[Edited 2011-08-09 11:40:23]

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2011-08-09 11:57:31 and read 11914 times.

Quoting richierich (Reply 246):
I was particularly interested in the TWA and United collision over Brooklyn in 1961 that recently saw its 50th anniversary

There's a documentary on this crash (in three parts) on Youtube that shows a lot of footage from that day, as well as interviews with the parents of the young boy who initially survived the crash.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

LoneStarMike

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: isitsafenow
Posted 2011-08-09 13:55:17 and read 11807 times.

Quoting richierich (Reply 246):
TWA and United collision over Brooklyn in 1961

Over Staten Island Friday, Dec 16, 1960 around 10 40 am. And that's from memory..................
safe  

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: richierich
Posted 2011-08-09 14:43:29 and read 11767 times.

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 248):
Over Staten Island Friday, Dec 16, 1960 around 10 40 am. And that's from memory..................
safe

For me, the accident is not forgotten even though it occurred well before I was born and even though I had the wrong year in my post. I realized after watching LoneStarMike's video links but by then I had lost my edit function. My point is still valid. The TWA Connie crashed in Staten Island, the United DC-8 in Park Slope area of Brooklyn, a horrible disaster.

To stay on topic, I wonder how many people live in those areas and had no idea such a major catastrophe occurred in their neighborhood (well, before the 50th anniversary media attention anyway)? I guess it is forgotten by all who moved in or were born well after the crash and by those who have no interest in history or aviation. Probably quite a number of people.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: vatveng
Posted 2011-08-09 15:24:01 and read 11728 times.

December 13, 1994, American Eagle flight 3379, a Flagship Airlines Jetstream 31 operating GSO-RDU crashed about 4 miles from RDU around Morrisville, NC. 15 fatalities and 5 survivors. This is the only crash where I actually knew one of the victims, he was a college friend who was flying home for the Christmas break.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleigh...al_Airport#Incidents_and_accidents

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: PROSA
Posted 2011-08-09 19:39:46 and read 11618 times.

Quoting N202PA (Reply 232):
You have to really feel for the people who have to clean up the bodies from any crash, but especially one where the accident was so violent there were no bodies intact afterward.

I suppose it might be more disturbing to clean up intact bodies. At least when there's not much left, it may be possible to think of the remains as not really human.

Topic: RE: Forgotten Major Air Disasters
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2011-08-09 21:20:09 and read 11559 times.

For those interested in the early Electra crashes of 1959-1960, here is the Life Magazine article from July 25, 1960.
I wish comtemporary reporting could be as accurate and well-written as this.

http://books.google.com/books?id=UE8...page&q=jet%20age%20mystery&f=false


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