Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5239919/

Topic: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: SA7700
Posted 2011-08-25 04:13:17 and read 23362 times.

This is a continuation thread of part 1, which can be found here: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 1). Please feel free to contribute to the thread, adhering to the forum rules at all times, please.

Enjoy the forums!  

SA7700

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Ronaldo747
Posted 2011-08-25 05:08:13 and read 23254 times.

Just in at Twitter

Quote:
BoeingAirplanes: Thanks to our friends @Delta for ordering 100 Next-Generation 737-900ERs. #Boeing
http://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes

It's official!

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: JonasJ
Posted 2011-08-25 05:12:08 and read 23241 times.

From Delta's website: "Delta Announces Order for 100 Boeing 737-900ER Aircraft"

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1428

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: LY777
Posted 2011-08-25 05:14:29 and read 23208 times.

Finally some good news! Congrats to DL and Boeing!

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: oykie
Posted 2011-08-25 05:20:29 and read 23173 times.

Quote:
News Release Issued: August 25, 2011 8:15 AM EDT

Boeing, Delta Air Lines Announce Order for 100 Next-Generation 737-900ERs
- 737-900ER is part of Delta's fleet renewal effort
- The order has a list-price value of more than $8.5 billion

Press release here:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1899

No picture yet.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: col
Posted 2011-08-25 06:06:57 and read 22886 times.

"I want to commend all the manufacturers who participated in this process. Their innovation in developing fleet solutions for the future resulted in several very competitive proposals," he said.

Nicely worded Richard. The best "package" on offer won this deal. I would also say that he quite smartly thanked Airbus for their input. Great news for Boeing and the 737-900ER. Now it will be interesting to see what happens on deliveries after 2018.

I just wish we could all be as respectful as the CEO of Delta, to each manufacturer.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: delimit
Posted 2011-08-25 06:14:17 and read 22835 times.

Interesting. The press release says these aircraft will be replacing:

Quote:
Boeing 757 and 767 and Airbus A320 aircraft

767s?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2011-08-25 06:40:31 and read 22638 times.

Congrats to Being, and ever good landings to Delta. Makes a lot of sense, and if the deal was right it will end good.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: frigatebird
Posted 2011-08-25 07:14:48 and read 22390 times.

Quoting delimit (Reply 8):
Interesting. The press release says these aircraft will be replacing:

Quote:
Boeing 757 and 767 and Airbus A320 aircraft

767s?

And A320's, didn't expect that either. But the oldest must be running out of cycles perhaps. 767's will be probably domestic ones? No word on the MD80's, so there are still lots of airplanes to be replaced. Interesting battles ahead  

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2011-08-25 07:26:19 and read 22287 times.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 12):
And A320's, didn't expect that either. But the oldest must be running out of cycles perhaps. 767's will be probably domestic ones?

The domestic 767s still have quite a few years on cycles (the 767 has a very high design cycle life for a widebody), but their economics aren't that great. It should reduce costs to replace them with increased frequency on 739ERs.

The earliest A320s will be running out of cycles by the time the later planes in this order are delivered.

All that said, I expect the first large batch of planes in this order to be 1-for-1 replacements for 757s.

[Edited 2011-08-25 07:27:47]

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: mayor
Posted 2011-08-25 07:29:17 and read 22272 times.

Quoting col (Reply 7):
Nicely worded Richard. The best "package" on offer won this deal. I would also say that he quite smartly thanked Airbus for their input. Great news for Boeing and the 737-900ER. Now it will be interesting to see what happens on deliveries after 2018.

I don't think Airbus is out of the picture yet, although for fleet commonality, you might think that the rest of the order might be from Boeing.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: STT757
Posted 2011-08-25 07:34:00 and read 22228 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 13):
The domestic 767s still have quite a few years on cycles (the 767 has a very high design cycle life for a widebody), but their economics aren't that great. It should reduce costs to replace them with increased frequency on 739ERs.

I think with regards to the replacement of the domestic 767s the 737-900ERs will probably replace 757-300s domestically which in turn would replace the domestic 767s.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2011-08-25 07:34:39 and read 22207 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 14):
I don't think Airbus is out of the picture yet, although for fleet commonality, you might think that the rest of the order might be from Boeing.

Correct, however there are more airbus aircraft than 737's by several planes, this isn't the end of the order I'm sure of it, after all this amount is only half of the total amount of aircraft they were looking to purchase. None of this is really putting DL ahead of anything since these are not NEO's. I guess time will tell.

Also over at Bloomberg here is some news regarding other aircraft:

Quote:
Delta Air Lines put off an order of 100 small narrow-body jets until 2012, delaying talks with planemakers such as Embraer, as it prepares to buy 100 Boeing 737s, Bloomberg reported. Discussions with Embraer and Bombardier advanced this year while Delta negotiated with Boeing and Airbus SAS for larger planes. “After talks with Delta, Embraer expects that Delta’s decision whether to buy its planes or equivalents from competitors will only be made next year,” Embraer Executive Vice President Paulo Cesar de Souza e Silva said in a statement. Trebor Banstetter, a spokesman for Delta, and Bombardier’s John Arnone declined to comment. People familiar with the matter had said on Aug. 22 that Delta had delayed a decision beyond this week on buying smaller narrow-body aircraft, without giving the size of the planned purchase or a new timetable.


[Edited 2011-08-25 07:37:25]

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2011-08-25 07:43:38 and read 22138 times.

Quote:
Sooo...where's this announcement that some said were going to happen yesterday?

I do believe DL has board meetings on Wednesdays so maybe tomorrow?

I guess I wasn't too far off base when I said the above  

Very exciting news but I wonder which a/c will start to go to the desert when the first batch arrives on property in 2013. I can't see DL flying around that much extra capacity with their "capacity disciplines" and all. When I say which a/c, I mean actualy ship numbers. I guess only those with knowledge of when HMVs are due will have a pretty good idea.

Also, in regards to the PMNW 5500s that's been in long term storage, are those up for a heavy cheack? I ask becaue if they are not, I can see those finally returning to service when some of the oldest 757s come up for checks. Fly those (the stored 5500s) until the paint comes off and when the HMVs are due, park them again permanently. DL's doing this right now. They're sending birds that have winglets into storage to save on cycles and flying the older ones until they are due for HMVs since they will be parked in the near future anyway.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2011-08-25 07:48:38 and read 22071 times.

Quoting col (Reply 7):
"I want to commend all the manufacturers who participated in this process. Their innovation in developing fleet solutions for the future resulted in several very competitive proposals," he said.

Nicely worded Richard. The best "package" on offer won this deal. I would also say that he quite smartly thanked Airbus for their input. Great news for Boeing and the 737-900ER. Now it will be interesting to see what happens on deliveries after 2018.

I just wish we could all be as respectful as the CEO of Delta, to each manufacturer.

This indeed is a very classy statement from RA. Goes to show that business is business and no hard feelings (unlike on a.net). It also very much seems to imply to all parties "we'll be talking again in the future."

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 9):
Delta will begin taking deliveries of the new plane in the second half of 2013, with 12 aircraft that year, 19 aircraft per year in 2014 through 2017, and the remaining 12 aircraft in 2018. Each aircraft has committed long-term financing, Delta said.

The size and timing of the order will allow Delta to maintain its annual capital expenditure run rate between $1.2 billion and $1.4 billion during the next three years and will not impact the company’s $1.2 billion of capital expenditures projected for this year.

As mentioned in one of the press releases, this is essentially a capacity-neutral move. The key part of the statement is "capacity-neutral" not "airframe neutral". Gone are the days of true 1 for 1 replacements.

The DC-9-50s are gone by the end of 2012, being offset by the MD-90 capacity coming online.
By the end of 2013, some of the 757s will start to go.

They'll essentially fly the older frames until they time-out on cycles pending heavy maintenance checks and park them, being offset by the new aircraft coming online. At first, the 739ER capacity may even be used to offset the loss of the DC-9-50 capacity for summer 2013. Plus, the LGA slot swap is also going to have fleet implications. I wouldn't expect to see a whole lot of 739ER LGA flying (other than ATL-LGA perhaps) but they'll have to shift a number of 2-class RJs and A319/A320/738's around.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 12):
And A320's, didn't expect that either. But the oldest must be running out of cycles perhaps. 767's will be probably domestic ones? No word on the MD80's, so there are still lots of airplanes to be replaced. Interesting battles ahead

DL said they are waiting until 2012 to decide on an order for a smaller aircraft. They are waiting for more clarity and also waiting to see how the economic situaion plays out.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...ued-at-8-5-billion.html?cmpid=yhoo

The MD-88s still have a lot of life left. Just like their older breathern the DC-9s, the MD-88s will become the new flexible fleet/capacity. DL as of now is planning to fly them until 2017-2018. Parking them much earlier would require a significant write-down and also DL is very prudently managing its capex spending and debt.

Quoting mayor (Reply 14):
I don't think Airbus is out of the picture yet, although for fleet commonality, you might think that the rest of the order might be from Boeing.

Don't mention "fleet commonality." Sure there may be more 739ERs but the timeframe and order will be evaluated against what may be available after 2018.

Essentially, this is what DL needed now. They new they needed deliveries starting in 2013, before any NEO was available. This order represents DL's immediate need. They'll decide on the NEO / RE situation later.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: 1337DELTA764
Posted 2011-08-25 07:50:51 and read 22043 times.

Looks like the Sky Interior is official. Also, the article states that there will be an "industry leading on-board experience". Does that include AVOD?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2011-08-25 08:08:29 and read 21815 times.

Quoting 1337DELTA764 (Reply 19):
Looks like the Sky Interior is official. Also, the article states that there will be an "industry leading on-board experience". Does that include AVOD?

1337, I know you are everything cabin experience and a/c orders   but I honestly don't know what the future of AVOD will be. DL will be going into the testing stage for streaming wifi towards the end of the year. United and AA have already announced similar programs. This may very well be a way to get out of the AVOD game on a/c that are weight critical. I can see them on the domestic fleet but i'm not 100% sure about what will happen with the international fleet moving forward. I could be way off base here but just my opinion.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18):
Gone are the days of true 1 for 1 replacements.

This is key PSU. From their Q&A to employees:

Quote:
Q: Why is Delta buying these airplanes?
A. Delta's domestic fleet is aging, with many of our Boeing 757s, 767s and Airbus A320s approaching retirement over the next several years, in addition to the DC-9s and MD-80s that have been retired or will soon be grounded. The new 737-900ERs will replace these aircraft as they are phased out of the fleet. This order is not designed to grow the fleet or increase Delta's network capacity.

Q. The press release mentions 767s as aircraft that are being replaced. I thought this was for narrowbody domestic fleet retirements?
A. Because of its range and size, the 737-900ER can be deployed to replace several aircraft types, ranging from the smaller 757s and Airbus A320s as well as larger domestic 767-300s. The new airplanes are not intended to be one-for-one replacements for a single aircraft type.


Straight from the horse's mouth. So I was actually right in my thinking from my first post in this new thread. A/C be parked not too long after the first batch come on property due to Delta's capacity restraints. I wonder which frames will go first.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2011-08-25 10:27:58 and read 20656 times.

Never flown on any of CO's 739/739ERs.

I see they operate their ER's in a 20/153 configuration - 173 total with a mid-cabin lav between F & Y.

Any idea on DL's potential configuration? I see they said 180 seats in the press release.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2011-08-25 10:38:06 and read 20500 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 16):
Correct, however there are more airbus aircraft than 737's by several planes, this isn't the end of the order I'm sure of it, after all this amount is only half of the total amount of aircraft they were looking to purchase. None of this is really putting DL ahead of anything since these are not NEO's. I guess time will tell.

Nobody says that the contract does not include wordage that allows DL to upgrade to the 737-9 when the 737-9 becomes available and approved by the Boeing BoD. I presume they will upgrade at least the back end of the order, and the expected 2012 order will be all 737RE's.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2011-08-25 11:28:16 and read 19882 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 18):
and the expected 2012 order will be all 737RE's

Negative.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...ued-at-8-5-billion.html?cmpid=yhoo

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Blueman87
Posted 2011-08-25 13:09:05 and read 18840 times.

Is they 737-900ER going to have tv's in them

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2011-08-25 13:21:05 and read 18707 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 16):
I wonder which frames will go first.

I'd put money on very early PMDL 757s going first. They're the only ones that are going to be cycle limited within the next couple of years. After that, 5500s, slightly later PMDL 757s, and eventually 763As and very early A320s.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: gigneil
Posted 2011-08-25 13:41:07 and read 18495 times.

I can't see any reason that the 739s wouldn't be outfitted on the inside exactly the same as the most modern 738s.

NS

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2011-08-25 13:44:27 and read 18435 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19):
Negative.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...=yhoo

Sorry, should have clarified this. Any remaining narrowbody orders, not the small 100 seater ones which will probably be the C-series.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: BD338
Posted 2011-08-25 13:50:36 and read 18348 times.

Nice order. Gets the immediate (5 year) replacement need out of the way for the oldest 757's 320's etc. (and 2013 can't come soon enough for one or two of those!) A well proven, comfortable and efficient aircraft. Boeing no doubt offered a very attractive price which made the whole package work for DL.

DL can now sit back a little and see how the 320NEO and 737RE develop, along with other manufacturer products and don't need to make any immediate decision on post 2018 needs. The DL fleet is large enough for Airbus and Boeing products to coexist so I wouldn't suggest yet that this order definitely indicates the next order is a shoe in for Boeing.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: USAF336TFS
Posted 2011-08-25 14:45:29 and read 18334 times.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 24):
I wouldn't suggest yet that this order definitely indicates the next order is a shoe in for Boeing.

But it's surely a giving Boeing the upper hand with regard to their next order. My guess is the contract language allows for Delta to swap some of the latter deliveries from 737-900ERs to 737RE-9s.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: WN738
Posted 2011-08-25 16:24:12 and read 17638 times.

Pleasantly surprised   I honestly didnot think the 737NG (any variant) would get any more orders (certainly not this big) now that the A320 NEO, a plane i reluctantly admit is far superior, is selling like hotcakes. But then again i guess this is more of a 757 replacement right? Guess DL will be needing them sooner than i though. I suppose this is for replacement, as i can hardly see DL expanding much given their not so stellar performance as of late.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2011-08-25 16:48:24 and read 17749 times.

Quoting WN738 (Reply 26):
honestly didnot think the 737NG (any variant) would get any more orders (certainly not this big) now that the A320 NEO, a plane i reluctantly admit is far superior, is selling like hotcakes. But then again i guess this is more of a 757 replacement right? Guess DL will be needing them sooner than i though. I suppose this is for replacement, as i can hardly see DL expanding much given their not so stellar performance as of late.

Please read the posts above. All of your speculation is answered above.

DL needed aircraft starting in 2013, well before any NEO/RE was going to be available. DL also has outstanding options with Boeing for 737s.

This order is for replacement capacity, but as always DL has a lot of levers to pull if/should they need incremental capacity by delaying aircraft retirements, increasing utilization of fleets, etc.

No so stellar performance? Not necessarily DL but more or less the industry which is impacted disportionately by the economy and the cost of fuel.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: xdlx
Posted 2011-08-25 17:32:36 and read 17376 times.

Wonder if Delta could make it work with 3 types?

C-Series

B737/8/9NG

B777/787

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Stitch
Posted 2011-08-25 17:40:27 and read 17373 times.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 28):
Wonder if Delta could make it work with 3 types?

Down the road, I see no reason why not.

I expect they could also make it work with the CSeries, A320neo and A350.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: micstatic
Posted 2011-08-25 17:40:49 and read 17309 times.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 28):
Wonder if Delta could make it work with 3 types?

C-Series

B737/8/9NG

B777/787

Good question. But I'm sure they would retain the 737-700 for special performance ops, and this would be 4 types. The 777 and 787 are not the same type

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2011-08-25 17:57:47 and read 17258 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
I expect they could also make it work with the CSeries, A320neo and A350.

Nice wet dream Stich, but with 18 firm 787's on order, more 777 and all Airbus options differed indefinitely, I highly doubt it. Taking delivery of these 100 737-900ER's and their current 737's, and replacing the old A320's with 737-900's I presume Boeing is their manufacturer of choice once more.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: gigneil
Posted 2011-08-25 18:28:15 and read 16899 times.

You would presume that, naturally.

NS

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: flyorski
Posted 2011-08-25 18:56:19 and read 16654 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 31):
Nice wet dream Stich, but with 18 firm 787's on order, more 777 and all Airbus options differed indefinitely, I highly doubt it. Taking delivery of these 100 737-900ER's and their current 737's, and replacing the old A320's with 737-900's I presume Boeing is their manufacturer of choice once more.

I would give Delta a 50% chance of purchasing more Airbus. It simply depends on too many variables to assume they would not. I am saying this without the detailed knowledge Stitch has  

Of course your free to presume whatever you want, based on whatever facts (or none) its based on.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: brons2
Posted 2011-08-25 19:22:56 and read 16373 times.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 28):
Wonder if Delta could make it work with 3 types?

C-Series

B737/8/9NG

B777/787
Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
Quoting xdlx (Reply 28):
Wonder if Delta could make it work with 3 types?

Down the road, I see no reason why not.

I expect they could also make it work with the CSeries, A320neo and A350.

There is no exact replacement for the 763ER in either of those scenarios, and Delta has a LOT of 763ER. The 788 is the closest, but it's still a fair bit bigger in floor area.

The A350 would leave a fairly large gap between the narrowbodies and the A358. I assume in the Airbus NB replacement scenario, they would be developing an A321NEO with true TATL range.

How do the trip costs of the 788 and A358 compare to the 763ER on a 4000nm mission? Not the seat costs, mind you, but the trip costs. The low trip costs are what makes the 763ER such a low risk bird.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: gigneil
Posted 2011-08-25 19:26:00 and read 16331 times.

The 788's trip costs should actually be lower than the 763's by a wide margin.

NS

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2011-08-25 19:43:05 and read 16155 times.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 28):

Wonder if Delta could make it work with 3 types?

C-Series

B737/8/9NG

B777/787


That would be a dream!

As a flight attendant, this would make training much easier, and as we know, its all about
us lol

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Stitch
Posted 2011-08-25 19:44:50 and read 16139 times.

Quoting brons2 (Reply 34):
How do the trip costs of the 788 and A358 compare to the 763ER on a 4000nm mission?

Both should be lower thanks to the lower fuel and maintenance costs of the new planes. This should easily cover the increased labor costs (higher flight crew pay and more cabin crew depending on seat count).

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: oykie
Posted 2011-08-26 01:08:08 and read 14599 times.

Quoting oykie (Reply 4):
No picture yet.

Picture here. Looks nice  What a 707NG would look like?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: DL_Mech
Posted 2011-08-26 01:19:57 and read 14533 times.

707NG? Not with that wimpy little wing.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_d-w5rabUH7...W1_Fw0/s1600-h/Boeing+7+Series.JPG

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: oykie
Posted 2011-08-26 02:16:56 and read 14286 times.

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 39):
707NG? Not with that wimpy little wing.

Nice picture! Remember that event well. And I agree that the massive 707 wing is beautiful.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2011-08-26 05:31:05 and read 13558 times.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 28):

Wonder if Delta could make it work with 3 types?

C-Series

B737/8/9NG

B777/787

Is that not 4 types?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2011-08-26 05:39:09 and read 13558 times.

I think this order shows DL to be the supreme opportunistic buyer of aircraft.

They are mopping all the MD 90s available. Now they add 100x 739, slow selling aircraft which Boeing need to find buyers for as they transition to the 737RE, and for which DL already are geared up to operate due to their large 738 fleet. There does not appear to be any commitment to the (presumably fully priced) 737RE, unlike AA.

I doubt that Airbus demanded more $ per aircraft for A321s than they did of AA, but they probably offered AA help with gearing up for A320 series maintenance and training from scratch, which DL as an existing A320 operator did not need.

I agree with most contributors to this thread that the door is still open for C series, but I would not rule out a A321 neo order later either.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: delimit
Posted 2011-08-26 05:43:44 and read 13540 times.

Quoting brons2 (Reply 34):
There is no exact replacement for the 763ER in either of those scenarios, and Delta has a LOT of 763ER. The 788 is the closest, but it's still a fair bit bigger in floor area.

There is no replacement for the 763ER, period. Pretty much everything is either much smaller or a bit bigger. The A332 or 788 are about as close as DL is going to be able to get. Given that the 788 should be either on par or better than the 332 cost-wise, the choice seems pretty clear to me.

Quoting brons2 (Reply 34):
The A350 would leave a fairly large gap between the narrowbodies and the A358. I assume in the Airbus NB replacement scenario, they would be developing an A321NEO with true TATL range.

I don't think the far end of the 757 range is acheivable, but then, there really aren't that many routes that require it. The only real chance for a true 100% 757 replacement will be whatever the next round of narrow bodies brings us. Either a few 757s will soldier on until then or the routes will be cancelled or upguaged.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2011-08-26 06:18:01 and read 13402 times.

Quoting delimit (Reply 43):
Given that the 788 should be either on par or better than the 332 cost-wise, the choice seems pretty clear to me.

On par???? What would be the point of developing the planefor the past 6 years to be "on par" with old technology. The 787 should beat the A332 by at least 10-15%

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: delimit
Posted 2011-08-26 06:28:40 and read 13391 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 44):
On par???? What would be the point of developing the planefor the past 6 years to be "on par" with old technology. The 787 should beat the A332 by at least 10-15%

The A332 has not exactly stood still in that time.

I'm just being conservative in my statements rather than reopen that can of worms. We'll have answers to that question soon enough.  

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: xdlx
Posted 2011-08-26 07:03:33 and read 13255 times.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 41):

I stand corrected 5-types

C-series

B73NG ALL Versions

B767/5 ALL Versions

B777 ALL Versions

B787 ALL Versions

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2011-08-26 08:11:46 and read 13030 times.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 46):
I stand corrected 5-types

Sounds nice in theory, but DL also have a good sized fleet of young A332/A333 that are newer and play a different role than the 757/767 fleets. Plus MD-90s.

DC9 - retired end of 2012
MD88 - retired by the end of 2018
MD90 - will last beyond the end of the decade
737NG - will last beyond the end of the decade
744 - here for the next 5-7 years
757 - earliest frames leaving the fleet, but younger frames, ETOPS aicraft, and 753s will be here beyond end of decade
767 - earliest frames leaving the fleet, but the core of the 767ER and 764s will be here beyond end of the decade
777 - will last beyond the end of the decade
A319/A320 - earliest frames leaving the fleet, but youngest frames will likely still be around beyond the end of the decade
A330 - will last beyond the end of the decade

Look, the 739ER order covers DLs requirement for the 150-180 seat replacement needed between now and 2018.
The second part of the order, to cover DL's requirement for the need of 120-150 seat replacements needed between now and 2018 will come next year.

This is going to be an ongoing process. DL has clearly said they are going to be proceeding with fleet replacement in a prudent manner.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2011-08-26 08:23:00 and read 12983 times.

An airline as big as DL doesn't need to burn enormous amounts of capital just to shoehorn itself into the smallest possible number of types.

I think DL's fleet in 2022 will look something like this:

1. Small type to be ordered in 2012 or 2013

2. MD-90

3. A320 series: A319 [maybe A320neo or A321neo]

4. 737 series: 737-800, 737-900ER [maybe 737-8 or 737-9]

5. 757 series: 757-200 ETOPS and 757-300

6. 767 series: 767-300ER, 767-400ER

7. 787 series: 787-8

8. A330 series: A330-200, A330-300

9. 777 series: 777-200ER, 777-200LR [maybe 777-300ER or 777-9X]

Getting rid of any of those types in their entirety would involve premature replacement of economically sound aircraft, something which it is absolutely clear that DL has no interest in doing.

[Edited 2011-08-26 08:24:11]

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2011-08-26 09:37:04 and read 12751 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 10):
I don't think Airbus is out of the picture yet, although for fleet commonality, you might think that the rest of the order might be from Boeing.

As the A321 has a clear sales advantage over the 739ER for whatever reason it does seem that since DL has opted for the 739ER on this order it is more likely than not that Boeing will win any followup orders for the 738 or 73G. But it is by no means assured. But since there have been 737 only operators that have opted for the A321 over the 739ER it looks to me that it is likely that DL has decided to lean heavily toward Boeing going forward.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: xdlx
Posted 2011-08-26 09:59:34 and read 12635 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 47):

I do realize that the MD88/90 will be utilized until the end of the decade.

The question is with the non common types, does it cost more to operate the A332/3 spares, rotables, etc.
or can they be traded for 77L or 77W. This order obviously is aimed at domestic 150-180pax aircraft flying
under 2200nm. Most of the A319/20 and B752 early vintage (around 80-100 airplanes) And few early non
ETOPS 763 up in cycles.

Again newer A319/20 A332/3 B75/63/64 will soldier on and difficult to phase out until their useful life
is well utilized. The current CR7/9 E17/9 CRJ/ERJ fleet will take a while to convert to C-series.
I do not see DL replacing the B744 with another quad, it most likely will go the way of the 77W.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2011-08-26 12:56:07 and read 12321 times.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 50):
The question is with the non common types

Non-common types? Each fleet is sufficiently large enough to be its own. Again, fleet commonality, the most overly-played assertion on a.net.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 50):
does it cost more to operate the A332/3 spares, rotables, etc.
or can they be traded for 77L or 77W.

Traded? Why would Boeing want to trade? The cost outlay would be absolutely huge and not something DL would do will they are being very conservative about the capital spending. DL has higher priorities to replace equipment that is approaching the end of its usable life, and will for the next decade, than to go and replace much newer and still economical aircraft.

Keep in mind the A330 fleet is larger than the 777 fleet, plus all of the A330s are newer than the 77Es.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 50):
The current CR7/9 E17/9 CRJ/ERJ fleet will take a while to convert to C-series.

Why? They are totally different animals.

The CR7/9 E170/175 are all new and will be in the fleets for a long time. These are not candidates to be replaced by C-series.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2011-08-26 13:20:06 and read 12303 times.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 50):
The question is with the non common types, does it cost more to operate the A332/3 spares, rotables, etc.

No. The fleet is robust enough.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 50):
or can they be traded for 77L or 77W

Why would they do this?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: flyorski
Posted 2011-08-26 13:45:56 and read 12260 times.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 50):
The question is with the non common types, does it cost more to operate the A332/3 spares, rotables, etc.
or can they be traded for 77L or 77W. This order obviously is aimed at domestic 150-180pax aircraft flying
under 2200nm. Most of the A319/20 and B752 early vintage (around 80-100 airplanes) And few early non
ETOPS 763 up in cycles.

It sounds to me like you are really praying that Delta will get rid of the Airbus fleet it operates. The fact is Delta exists TO MAKE MONEY not to fly aircraft based on emotion. They will choose the aircraft that brings the most value to the company and keep the aircraft as long as its the best decision to do so. Which company builds the aircraft is not something that guides the fleet decisions.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: xdlx
Posted 2011-08-26 15:37:23 and read 12050 times.

Quoting flyorski (Reply 53):

No one is talking emotions. From the very begining in Delta history, they have had a balanced
approach to fleet renewal. For example when DL entered the jet age, it ordered DC8 ( DL was
a longstanding Douglas customer) and also the CV880/990.

We are trying to see where DL flies and how the fleet renewal fits in the future.

I could really care less if the order the Sukoi instead of the C-series or an Arbi instead of a Boeing.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Delimit
Posted 2011-08-26 16:00:17 and read 11996 times.

Well, you have your answer then. The 330s are most likely staying. They will probably be replaced with 787s a LONG time from now.

As for single aisles, it does seem more likely that Delta will standardize on the 737. The 321 offers the most compelling reason to go Airbus and they've obviously decided against it. I expect we'll see more 800s with a smooth transition over to the reengined versions.

At the low end, I am hoping C Series, but we won't know for a while.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2011-08-27 00:07:15 and read 11549 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 55):
Well, you have your answer then. The 330s are most likely staying. They will probably be replaced with 787s a LONG time from now.

As for single aisles, it does seem more likely that Delta will standardize on the 737. The 321 offers the most compelling reason to go Airbus and they've obviously decided against it. I expect we'll see more 800s with a smooth transition over to the reengined versions.

At the low end, I am hoping C Series, but we won't know for a while.

I agree with everything here, though I'm not sure we can rule out the Airbus just yet. If next week the BoD at Boeing gives the green light to the RE (which seems likely), then I'm guessing it wouldn't be long before we know if DL is interested in getting in line for any of those. The longer they wait, the better chance there is that Airbus remains in the running.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: par13del
Posted 2011-08-27 14:45:46 and read 11103 times.

Quoting WN738 (Reply 26):
I honestly didnot think the 737NG (any variant) would get any more orders (certainly not this big) now that the A320 NEO, a plane i reluctantly admit is far superior, is selling like hotcakes.
Quoting flyorski (Reply 53):
The fact is Delta exists TO MAKE MONEY not to fly aircraft based on emotion. They will choose the aircraft that brings the most value to the company and keep the aircraft as long as its the best decision to do so. Which company builds the aircraft is not something that guides the fleet decisions.

What has to be remembered for most US carriers is that single aisle a/c are mostly deployed on domestic routes, so even if AA or others operate NEO a/c which are deemed to be superior, if that is not in all flight profiles it will be no different than current operations. The A330 supposedly killed the 767 yet it is being used profotably by carriers around the word, there are other examples, and based on those I do not see the NEO being any different, ditto for the 787 and the A350.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: NeutronStar73
Posted 2011-08-29 08:33:08 and read 10249 times.

Okay, now we have word that Delta's rejection of Airbus did not have to do with "delivery positions and slot availability" that many people have said was the main reason for the Boeing choice.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...%20Some%20Questions%20Open&next=10

Slot availability was nothing but an excuse. Sure the articel points out that price had something to do with it as well, but the whole "Airbus was booked" excuse was a joke. Maybe, just maybe, the 737 was a better plane to Delta.

Perhaps  Wow!

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Stitch
Posted 2011-08-29 08:52:51 and read 10165 times.

As DL operates both the 737-800 and A320-200, and a brand new A321-200LGW and a brand new 737-900ER have similar values, I expect both OEMs found themselves competing on price. However, with the two so similar in performance and value, Boeing likely would not have needed to undercut Airbus by much to win the business (nor Airbus undercut Boeing by much, if they had won the business).

I would not be surprised if UA's fleet renewal comes down more to price than anything else, nor would I be surprised if that price was only a bit lower than the losing RFP.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: YTZ
Posted 2011-08-29 09:35:07 and read 9953 times.

As much as I'd love to see the CSeries notch up DL as a customer, I am wondering why they wouldn't go with 73G/A319s to maintain commonality with the Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies?

Also, the DC9s will be gone from Delta's hangars before the CSeries is even in the hangar of a single customer. So why the need for a DC9 sized replacement when the MD88/90s have been doing an alright job?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Stitch
Posted 2011-08-29 09:49:28 and read 9906 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 60):
As much as I'd love to see the CSeries notch up DL as a customer, I am wondering why they wouldn't go with 73G/A319s to maintain commonality with the Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies?

If it hits it's targets, the CSeries will offer lower operating costs compared to the A319neo and 737-7, to say nothing of the A319 and 73G.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2011-08-29 09:54:29 and read 9865 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 31):
but with 18 firm 787's on order

These could be sold off to a lessor if need be. But it's highly unlikely the hundreds of 737s would all be replaced by NEOs before an all new NB is on offer.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 61):
If it hits it's targets, the CSeries will offer lower operating costs compared to the A319neo and 737-7, to say nothing of the A319 and 73G.

And it's been shown that for the longer range missions, the A320 and 738 are better suited anyway. Even WN is learning this.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2011-08-29 10:02:38 and read 9823 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 60):
I am wondering why they wouldn't go with 73G/A319s to maintain commonality with the Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies?

They are much heavier and have a alarger capacity than they anticipate they need. That would be my guess, but I personally would love to see more B737-700's in the fleet. Don't care much about the A319 or A320 for that matter, hate the noise from their engines.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: YTZ
Posted 2011-08-29 12:57:04 and read 9534 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 61):
If it hits it's targets, the CSeries will offer lower operating costs compared to the A319neo and 737-7, to say nothing of the A319 and 73G.

I know the operating costs are lower. I was just wondering if that's sufficient for an airline to then have to deal with that the commonality issues for one type...essentially one sub-type. I could for example see it being worthwhile if they were going to operate the CS100 and CS300. But are the hassles worthwhile for just the CS300?

But I am most certainly cheering for Bombardier here....
=======
More broadly on this order...here's my rough math:
-They wanted to keep capex at $1.2-$1.4 billion per year.
-Averaging at $1.3, that works out to $7.8 billion from 2013 to 2018, for 200 airplanes.
-That's $39 million per airplane.

This leaves me wondering:
-Was Delta being deceitful about future capex?
-How much is Boeing discounting these airplanes?
-Can Bombardier really price airplanes that low to get this order?
-Or are we going to see far fewer airplanes in the second order (50-70 a/c)?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Delimit
Posted 2011-08-29 13:00:34 and read 9518 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 64):
This leaves me wondering:
-Was Delta being deceitful about future capex?
-How much is Boeing discounting these airplanes?
-Can Bombardier really price airplanes that low to get this order?
-Or are we going to see far fewer airplanes in the second order (50-70 a/c)?

Shouldn't the order extending beyond 2018 be considered?

I understood the 2018 end date to be specific to the 900ER order.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: col
Posted 2011-08-30 02:01:53 and read 9206 times.

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 58):
Slot availability was nothing but an excuse. Sure the articel points out that price had something to do with it as well, but the whole "Airbus was booked" excuse was a joke.

I think if you read the article closely, you will see that the joke is actually the article itself. I do not believe Airbus ever said it was booked, but the article tells us that Airbus has a full orderbook. It then tells us that Airbus does not, by saying 320's were available. He also guess's that Airbus did not lower their price because of their orderbook situation.

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 58):
Maybe, just maybe, the 737 was a better plane to Delta.

Yes, and maybe that is why they purchased 100, the best package was from Boeing.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2011-08-30 04:39:33 and read 9030 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 60):
Also, the DC9s will be gone from Delta's hangars before the CSeries is even in the hangar of a single customer. So why the need for a DC9 sized replacement when the MD88/90s have been doing an alright job?

When you're as big as DL, you can operate "OK" without the perfect mix of aircraft sizes. They are probably judging that it's better to go without a small aircraft for awhile, and abuse either MD-88s or regional aircraft, than to bother with heavy checks and fuel costs on DC-9s until the C-Series (or the Embraer competitor) is available.

I still don't think all 100 of the second tranche of orders will be for small aircraft. More likely they will need 40-50 small aircraft and 50-60 re-engined Boeings or Airbus to begin MD-88 retirement and continue 757 retirement.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: SASMD82
Posted 2011-08-30 11:30:12 and read 8662 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 55):
The 330s are most likely staying. They will probably be replaced with 787s a LONG time from now

.

So basically this is quite irrational don't you think  


Sorry to be slightly off the topic but with the recent order of AA, are 'gentleman agreements' still likely in the future? Isn't it more feasible to opt for the best aircraft that suits your network?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: gigneil
Posted 2011-08-30 11:45:06 and read 8614 times.

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 58):
Slot availability was nothing but an excuse. Sure the articel points out that price had something to do with it as well, but the whole "Airbus was booked" excuse was a joke. Maybe, just maybe, the 737 was a better plane to Delta.

I just read that whole article twice and it basically said the opposite of what you just said.

I'm not calling you a liar, but I don't see how you could have read the same article as me.

NS

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Delimit
Posted 2011-08-30 12:03:51 and read 8573 times.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 68):
So basically this is quite irrational don't you think


Sorry to be slightly off the topic but with the recent order of AA, are 'gentleman agreements' still likely in the future? Isn't it more feasible to opt for the best aircraft that suits your network?

Um...yes? Hence, 787s. Unless you are going to be a daring iconoclast and suggest the 330s will be replaced with more 330s. Because the 787 is basically superior to it in every way imaginable.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: gigneil
Posted 2011-08-30 12:06:02 and read 8553 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 70):
Because the 787 is basically superior to it in every way imaginable.

But way less so than it was supposed to be. Not to mention, when will you get one?

NS

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: SASMD82
Posted 2011-08-30 12:12:24 and read 8526 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 70):
Um...yes? Hence, 787s. Unless you are going to be a daring iconoclast and suggest the 330s will be replaced with more 330s. Because the 787 is basically superior to it in every way imaginable.
Quoting gigneil (Reply 71):
But way less so than it was supposed to be. Not to mention, when will you get one?

This was basically one of my points (sorry, I had to come up with arguments) and who knows what the market will be in 2020? Maybe the Airbus develop an A330 NEO/RE/er whatever.... or maybe Embraer or Bombardier come up with a revolutional 250 seater.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Delimit
Posted 2011-08-30 12:12:46 and read 8535 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 71):

But way less so than it was supposed to be. Not to mention, when will you get one?

In the initial iteration, sure. By the end of the decade when Delta starts its wide body replacement, probably at or above specs.

As for when you'll get 'em, DL doesn't want any wide bodies anytime soon so it's a bit of a moot point.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2011-08-30 12:15:48 and read 8521 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 71):
But way less so than it was supposed to be. Not to mention, when will you get one?

Isn't that comment valid only for the first few frames produced? It was overweight, an issue that was addresses from what I heard. From frames 6 on are to spec. It was something to do with the side-of-body mod they had to do. The engines (package 2) acctually exceed fuel burn expectations by 0.5% (which means nothing in the grand scheme of things.). I am not all that familiar with it, but please correct me if I am wrong, I very well could be.

I am sure that someone would have been willing to pay a pretty penny for DL's slots if DL's was going to sell them instead of moving them down the line. Personally, I cannot wait for them to take delivery of the 787.

[Edited 2011-08-30 12:16:26]

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Delimit
Posted 2011-08-30 12:23:42 and read 8492 times.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 72):
This was basically one of my points (sorry, I had to come up with arguments) and who knows what the market will be in 2020? Maybe the Airbus develop an A330 NEO/RE/er whatever.... or maybe Embraer or Bombardier come up with a revolutional 250 seater.

Or we could all grow wings! Come on now.

Given everything we know today, without exciting (and fairly unlikely) changes in the next 4 or 5 years, my prediction makes sense.

And of course there's the fact that Delta have them on order.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 74):
Isn't that comment valid only for the first few frames produced?

Not really. The 330 has been much improved since the 787 was announced. Even at spec the 787 has much less of a lead than it once was projected to. The 330 is a fantastic plane.

That said, the 787 should still easily match or best it.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2011-08-30 12:39:18 and read 8489 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 75):
Not really. The 330 has been much improved since the 787 was announced. Even at spec the 787 has much less of a lead than it once was projected to. The 330 is a fantastic plane.

Agreed, the A330 is a fantastic plane, I love it, but realistically speaking, it is nowhere near the 787 (today's specs for both). Could you please enlighten me with what data and logic are you making your claim? I compare the A330 to be about the same as a 767 with winglets, of course depending on the mission it serves.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: gigneil
Posted 2011-08-30 12:44:12 and read 8533 times.

An A330-200 hoists, what, 20 tons more payload across over 1000nm further than an 767?

NS

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Delimit
Posted 2011-08-30 12:51:55 and read 8506 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 76):
Agreed, the A330 is a fantastic plane, I love it, but realistically speaking, it is nowhere near the 787 (today's specs for both). Could you please enlighten me with what data and logic are you making your claim? I compare the A330 to be about the same as a 767 with winglets, of course depending on the mission it serves.

The comparison has been done here over and over. It's basically commonly accepted wisdom by those not biased towards one or the other manufacturer. Rather than rehash it, I'll just drop the claim if you find it that inflammatory.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2011-08-30 12:55:23 and read 8483 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 78):
I'll just drop the claim if you find it that inflammatory.

I don't find it inflammatory but I would like to see the facts behind it. As I said, I love the A330, it is one of my all time favourites.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Stitch
Posted 2011-08-30 12:57:27 and read 8509 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 70):
Because the 787 is basically superior to it in every way imaginable.
Quoting gigneil (Reply 71):
But way less so than it was supposed to be.

Now that Boeing has hard data I'm hearing mumblings that the 787-8's numbers came in over 10% better than the A330-200. And that's with the "fat frames".

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: gigneil
Posted 2011-08-30 13:04:39 and read 8436 times.

I hadn't really heard an update in quite some time, especially not since they had starting gathering performance data during the later stage of flight testing.

I'm actually interested in what they were able to come up with...

NS

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: SUNRISEVALLEY
Posted 2011-08-30 13:05:56 and read 8442 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 80):
Now that Boeing has hard data I'm hearing mumblings that the 787-8's numbers came in over 10% better than the A330-200. And that's with the "fat frames".

Are the mumblers that you are tuned into making any noises about when the ACAP 's will be updated?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Stitch
Posted 2011-08-30 13:11:52 and read 8449 times.

Quoting SUNRISEVALLEY (Reply 82):
Are the mumblers that you are tuned into making any noises about when the ACAP 's will be updated?

Not yet, but I would think we should have them soon enough now that we're within weeks of the start of customer deliveries. I see the 747-8 ACAP was updated in June to include preliminary Payload-Range figures.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Delimit
Posted 2011-08-30 13:37:21 and read 8385 times.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 79):
I don't find it inflammatory but I would like to see the facts behind it. As I said, I love the A330, it is one of my all time favourites.

Dont want to derail the thread further. A quick google gave me this for your reading pleasure, and there's much more on offer.
787-9 Vs. A330-300 (by ea772lr Feb 23 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting Stitch (Reply 80):
Now that Boeing has hard data I'm hearing mumblings that the 787-8's numbers came in over 10% better than the A330-200. And that's with the "fat frames".

Oh nice. I assume that's versus the latest A330? Good to see the 787 delivering on promises.  

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2011-08-30 13:51:01 and read 8347 times.

Quoting Delimit (Reply 84):
Oh nice. I assume that's versus the latest A330? Good to see the 787 delivering on promises.

What major updates to the A330 improved its efficiency by 15+ percent? I haven't heard of any such developments in the past 6 years. I am sure those would have been very note worthy...

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: n7371f
Posted 2011-08-30 14:21:49 and read 8305 times.

Any of the regular Delta and TechOps posters heard anything about layout for the 73X? I know it's early and Delta has plenty of time to finalize the configuration...Continental does F20Y153 with a mid-cabin lav. That will be changing to F20Y144 I believe with the EconomyPlus configuration.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2011-08-30 14:53:33 and read 8284 times.

Quoting col (Reply 7):
I just wish we could all be as respectful as the CEO of Delta, to each manufacturer.
Quoting Delimit (Reply 70):
Um...yes? Hence, 787s. Unless you are going to be a daring iconoclast and suggest the 330s will be replaced with more 330s. Because the 787 is basically superior to it in every way imaginable.

From what I hear, even the first iterations of the B787's are going to just have killer economics against its competitors. The more "optimized" ones in the next few years will simply not be comparable. That is what I also think of the A350XWB as well (hence why Boeing needs to "get on the ball").

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 72):
Maybe the Airbus develop an A330 NEO/RE/er whatever


Not going to happen. It will cost no less than $4-$6 billion to do it. Airbus has enough projects on hits hands.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: InsideMan
Posted 2011-09-01 08:14:19 and read 7875 times.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...id-delta-get-a-51-discount-on.html

damn, that is quite a discount. So much for people claiming the 737-900ER sold on merit alone....

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2011-09-01 08:37:41 and read 7749 times.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 88):
So much for people claiming the 737-900ER sold on merit alone....

Price isn't a part of merit? Since when? It's the total value proposition and if Boeing can make money at the price they negotiated, good for Boeing and Delta. This particularly true as Boeing closes out production of the 737NG in favor the 737 MAX, and Boeing will have a good case for commonality going forward.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2011-09-01 08:54:44 and read 7673 times.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 88):
damn, that is quite a discount. So much for people claiming the 737-900ER sold on merit alone....

I somehow doubt that most planes are sold on merit alone. And I'm not sure that a 51% discount is unprecedented - or even unexpected - at this point.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: mayor
Posted 2011-09-01 11:03:22 and read 7466 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 90):
I somehow doubt that most planes are sold on merit alone

That's what I was referring to earlier in the Airbus/Eastern deal with the A300s. This is the only Airbus deal that I'm familiar with, but I'm sure there are more. All the manufacturers are probably guilty of this, if you can consider it something to be guilty of.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: mffoda
Posted 2011-09-01 11:17:04 and read 7433 times.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 88):
damn, that is quite a discount. So much for people claiming the 737-900ER sold on merit alone....

You mean like this example....

http://airinsight.com/2011/05/09/a-glimpse-inside-engine-oem-pricing/

Quote:

A glimpse inside engine OEM pricing

In the lawsuit by Rolls-Royce against Pratt & Whitney for alleged patent infringement over the fan blade design of the PW-GE GP7200 vs the RR Trent 900 (both engines on the Airbus A380), we get a rare glimpse into the engine pricing.

Here’s one article that gives detail. RR says it had to discount its Trent 900 more than 87% compared with a normal discount of 77%.

Consider the persistent rhubarb over Airbus vs. Boeing discounts, which are routinely 25%-33% and sometimes rumored to be 50% or more, the revelation about the current state of engine discounts is remarkable…but not unprecedented.

We remember one Delta Air Lines deal in the 1990s in which the engine was given, as in free, to Delta with the follow-on maintenance and spare parts contracts being where the forthcoming profits were expected.

It was generally thought that in recent years, deals such as Delta’s weren’t necessary, but as we can see from this lawsuit, deep, deep discounts continue.


It appears everyone is in the Discount business... No? Or is it just Boeing's Merit-less products?   

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: flyingAY
Posted 2011-09-01 11:59:10 and read 7339 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 90):
I somehow doubt that most planes are sold on merit alone. And I'm not sure that a 51% discount is unprecedented - or even unexpected - at this point.

Though I'm quite sure before the introduction of A320neo or the 737MAX, neither A nor B had to discount their narrowbodies so much (OK, maybe the infamous FR order...). I believe Boeing needs to keep their 737 production line running til the MAX enters service. Since that will be later than the A320neo, B needs to sell more of the current-gen narrowbodies than A. Pricing is one way to influence sales.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Stitch
Posted 2011-09-01 13:50:21 and read 7167 times.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 88):
damn, that is quite a discount. So much for people claiming the 737-900ER sold on merit alone....

Actually 50% discounting is the norm now for narrowbodies and widebodies. I'm hearing AA paid even less than DL for their A320s. *shrug*

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: scbriml
Posted 2011-09-01 14:00:47 and read 7123 times.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 88):
damn, that is quite a discount.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 90):
I somehow doubt that most planes are sold on merit alone. And I'm not sure that a 51% discount is unprecedented - or even unexpected - at this point.

That level of discount is not unusual for a large order from a major client.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 94):
I'm hearing AA paid even less than DL for their A320s. *shrug*

Only just and for a significantly larger order.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: InsideMan
Posted 2011-09-01 14:40:24 and read 7010 times.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 92):
Here’s one article that gives detail. RR says it had to discount its Trent 900 more than 87% compared with a normal discount of 77%.

Consider the persistent rhubarb over Airbus vs. Boeing discounts, which are routinely 25%-33% and sometimes rumored to be 50% or more, the revelation about the current state of engine discounts is remarkable…but not unprecedented.

discounts on engines larger 70% are totally normal, because the manufacturers make they money on MRO. More or less like printer companies giving printers away dirt cheap and making the profit on the ink cartridges, but

Quoting Stitch (Reply 94):
Actually 50% discounting is the norm now for narrowbodies and widebodies. I'm hearing AA paid even less than DL for their A320s. *shrug*

50% discount is definitely NOT the norm, believe me!

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2011-09-01 14:44:05 and read 6985 times.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 96):
50% discount is definitely NOT the norm, believe me!

Well, we have:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 95):
That level of discount is not unusual for a large order from a major client.

...and:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 94):
I'm hearing AA paid even less than DL for their A320s. *shrug*
Quoting scbriml (Reply 95):
Only just and for a significantly larger order.

These deals may not represent the "norm", but they certainly represent the "current". They also show that neither the 737NG nor the A320OEO are selling on merit alone. lol

-Dave

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: DLMD90
Posted 2011-09-01 14:46:38 and read 6986 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):

All that said, I expect the first large batch of planes in this order to be 1-for-1 replacements for 757s.

I agree, and I hope so, lately, I keep getting those OLD PMNW 757's out of BOS, I'm really tired of them!

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 31):
Nice wet dream Stich, but with 18 firm 787's on order, more 777 and all Airbus options differed indefinitely, I highly doubt it. Taking delivery of these 100 737-900ER's and their current 737's, and replacing the old A320's with 737-900's I presume Boeing is their manufacturer of choice once more.

When did DL decide they were committing to the 787 order? I thought it was kind of in limbo?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2011-09-01 14:52:13 and read 6960 times.

Quoting DLMD90 (Reply 98):
When did DL decide they were committing to the 787 order? I thought it was kind of in limbo?

You can't get more in limbo than that order, that's for sure. I don't think we can draw too many conclusions from Delta in this order. It was one RFP, for a specific fleet replacement period, and there will be plenty more. I have no doubt that we "might" see the NEO in their fleet, and possibly both the NEO and the MAX. However, the -900ER order sort of reduces the number of A321NEO's that they might need, and that would seem to be the most compelling of the three products. The next size down - A320NEO vs 737-8MAX - sees a more competitive Boeing offering from what I read here. Therefore, a 737-900ER/A321NEO/737-8MAX/A319NEO mix might not be out of the question.

.....but then again, what is?  

-Dave

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2011-09-01 15:09:59 and read 6916 times.

This is off topic but I am wondering if for labor relations on the NB fleets it makes more sense for DL, UA, US, WN to use the same type. With a sub fleet, an airline could be vulnerable to a work stop-age or sick-out or other event that would disproportionately affect a certain type and create more problems. By using one type, the airline would have more flexibility in terms of keeping the planes in the air by reassigning pilots.

AA - They need planes in such a hurry, they had no choice but to go with both A&B despite their union issues.

I am not suggesting this to inflame, but wondering if any of the carriers are thinking this way.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2011-09-01 15:14:16 and read 6889 times.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 100):
This is off topic but I am wondering if for labor relations on the NB fleets it makes more sense for DL, UA, US, WN to use the same type. With a sub fleet, an airline could be vulnerable to a work stop-age or sick-out or other event that would disproportionately affect a certain type and create more problems. By using one type, the airline would have more flexibility in terms of keeping the planes in the air by reassigning pilots

I think there's a variety of factors to support or contradict that thought, depending on the circumstance. Some would say that the greater financial benefit comes form playing two manufacturers off of one another. Soem might say that having two different products would shield them from a problem (however unlikely) with the airworthiness of one (i.e. grounding). I suppose you could make a case for and against any of these, but certainly yours isn't any more or less worthy.

Having said that, I can't imagine (as an outsider) any type of labor issue that would affect one narrowbody but not another.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: sxf24
Posted 2011-09-01 15:16:34 and read 6962 times.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 96):
50% discount is definitely NOT the norm, believe me!

Yes, it is the norm...

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: gigneil
Posted 2011-09-01 15:30:39 and read 6930 times.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 96):
50% discount is definitely NOT the norm, believe me!

I actually would have thought it was 75%.

NS

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: scbriml
Posted 2011-09-01 15:38:41 and read 6920 times.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 96):
50% discount is definitely NOT the norm, believe me!

No, I don't believe it is - 30-40% is more usual for most orders. However, we have recently seen a significant number of large, tactical orders and the manufacturers know which customers are worth more to them.

50% discount doesn't seem unreasonable if a major customer has just ordered 230 of your planes and taken 365 options.   

The news that Boeing has discounted to similar levels for one of it's major domestic customers will hopefully put a stop to the oft-repeated claims that only Airbus "gives its planes away".   

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: sxf24
Posted 2011-09-01 16:11:34 and read 6839 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 105):
No, I don't believe it is - 30-40% is more usual for most orders. However, we have recently seen a significant number of large, tactical orders and the manufacturers know which customers are worth more to them.

You are incorrect. I'm not aware of any customers who currently get discounts smaller than 40%.

Discounts have certainly grown over the years. I think its because the OEMs increase list prices faster than their costs actually grow. It doesn't make sense, but that's how it is.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: InsideMan
Posted 2011-09-02 01:12:08 and read 6401 times.

actually scbriml is very correct.

Besides I never said it doesn't happen, but it is not the norm. Definitely not.

The reason I posted the original link is that when news of the order from DL got out some peple said
"Boeing must have given them a heck of a price" and lots of others denied reality and said
"The 737-900ER is good enough to hold its own against the A321 without giving it away dirt cheap"
Well, point was proven wrong, that's all.....

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: par13del
Posted 2011-09-02 06:51:50 and read 6232 times.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 106):
The reason I posted the original link is that when news of the order from DL got out some peple said"Boeing must have given them a heck of a price" and lots of others denied reality and said"The 737-900ER is good enough to hold its own against the A321 without giving it away dirt cheap"Well, point was proven wrong, that's all.....

And the fact that DL and AA needed a/c before the NEO or the MAX EIS made no never mind in setting the price.
Ok

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2011-09-02 07:48:36 and read 6168 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 104):
The news that Boeing has discounted to similar levels for one of it's major domestic customers will hopefully put a stop to the oft-repeated claims that only Airbus "gives its planes away".

Took a look at resale value and residual value of the competing planes and operating margins (for the manufacturers)....that gives a better idea....

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: sxf24
Posted 2011-09-02 08:00:47 and read 6141 times.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 106):
actually scbriml is very correct.

Besides I never said it doesn't happen, but it is not the norm. Definitely not.

I am not aware of any narrowbody sales to airlines in the past 18 months that had a discount less than 40%. Can you name one?

[Edited 2011-09-02 08:01:14]

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: flyingAY
Posted 2011-09-02 09:08:00 and read 6045 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 109):
I am not aware of any narrowbody sales to airlines in the past 18 months that had a discount less than 40%. Can you name one?

Where do you people get the discount percentages? Can you for example tell me, how much AY received discount for their A321sharklet order?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: imiakhtar
Posted 2011-09-02 09:19:54 and read 6018 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 108):
Took a look at resale value and residual value of the competing planes

I guess you're referring to the thread recently created by LAXintl. How does any of that data support your supposition?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 108):
and operating margins (for the manufacturers)

I've read the financial reports of EADS and Boeing. Nothing to suggest airbus is offering larger discounts.

Maybe I'm missing something?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: sxf24
Posted 2011-09-02 09:52:51 and read 5960 times.

Quoting flyingAY (Reply 110):
Where do you people get the discount percentages? Can you for example tell me, how much AY received discount for their A321sharklet order?

It's highly proprietary, but rumors and facts circulate throughout the industry. Most lessors and financiers have a pretty good idea of where net prices are.

Personally, I would never comment on A.net about a specific airline's net price as that would be unethical.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2011-09-02 10:24:13 and read 5917 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 103):
I actually would have thought it was 75%. NS

Way off.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: par13del
Posted 2011-09-02 10:42:25 and read 5879 times.

Well if we take the discounts being touted and look at the reverse we are talking about highway robbery, if 50% is the norm as claimed by some, then obviously the list price is geared to hooking some nutcase who know no better, if greater than 50% the situation is even worse, both cases would mean that the PR folks who are always blowing smoke also control list prices which would explain why they are so out of whack.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: worldliner
Posted 2011-09-02 10:45:58 and read 5931 times.

Heard Delta cancelled 126 737-800 options and swapped for 30 737-900ER's.

Any reckoning that Delta ordered the MAX also?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2011-09-02 10:48:15 and read 5890 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 115):
if 50% is the norm as claimed by some, then obviously the list price is geared to hooking some nutcase who know no better, if greater than 50% the situation is even worse, both cases would mean that the PR folks who are always blowing smoke also control list prices which would explain why they are so out of whack.

It's not that they are geared to "hooking some nutcase," it's that no one has any incentive to get them lower. Instead, everyone's incentives are to keep them high.

The manufacturer likes them high because they can offer bigger discounts and still get more revenue, and because deals will be reported as bigger in the media.

The buyer likes them high because then the sharply discounted transaction price makes management look like amazing negotiators..

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Stitch
Posted 2011-09-02 10:51:45 and read 5924 times.

Quoting worldliner (Reply 116):
Heard Delta cancelled 126 737-800 options and swapped for 30 737-900ER's.

Air Transport News and FlightGlobal's forum is reporting this, as well.

The deal was DL would cancel 60 options and 66 rolling options for the 737-800 and place an order for 100 737-900ERs and options for 30 more.

[Edited 2011-09-02 10:53:25]

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2011-09-02 11:52:54 and read 5814 times.

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 111):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 108):
Took a look at resale value and residual value of the competing planes

I guess you're referring to the thread recently created by LAXintl. How does any of that data support your supposition?

No not really. I was more or less looking at other research firms which provide data on airplane values.

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 111):

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 108):
and operating margins (for the manufacturers)

I've read the financial reports of EADS and Boeing. Nothing to suggest airbus is offering larger discounts.

Again, some of this data is provided form research firms, etc. in the aerospace industry. It would be a bit difficult from only reading both Boeing's and EADS financial reports - though I'm curious why EADS has such a low profit margin.  ?

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: astuteman
Posted 2011-09-02 19:20:44 and read 5597 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 108):
Took a look at resale value and residual value of the competing planes and operating margins (for the manufacturers)....that gives a better idea....

Not sure what you'll glean from the manufacturers operating margins to be honest.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 119):
though I'm curious why EADS has such a low profit margin. ?

Three things..

Currency hedging costs
Lots of exceptionals in the last 5 years or so, especially relating to the A380, old A350, and A400M
A higher percentage of turnover allocated to R+D than Boeing typically shows.

It's easy to show that in the last decade, the A320 and A330 between them have returned some E35Bn of profit back to Airbus, most of which has been swallowed up by new programmes and their overruns, but about E7Bn of which has been retained by the business.

Just through sheer numbers, the bulk of that must have come from the A320

Which, if anything, shows that Airbus make sh*tloads of money on the A320's they sell   

Rgds

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2011-09-02 20:25:49 and read 5523 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 118):
The deal was DL would cancel 60 options and 66 rolling options for the 737-800 and place an order for 100 737-900ERs and options for 30 more.

While I don't know all the in's and out's of the deal, it certainly makes sense in the end. They aren't going to need hundreds of NG options.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: InsideMan
Posted 2011-09-02 22:33:50 and read 5433 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 109):
I am not aware of any narrowbody sales to airlines in the past 18 months that had a discount less than 40%. Can you name one?

I will not make any confidential information public....
50% discount is not the norm. Period.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2011-09-02 22:36:10 and read 5427 times.

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 122):
I will not make any confidential information public....
50% discount is not the norm. Period.

Then what exactly is "the norm"?

-Dave

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: InsideMan
Posted 2011-09-02 22:56:14 and read 5426 times.

30-40 as already posted by scrimbl.

But as I wrote in another thread somewhere, the difference in price can be up to 100%, as some do get 50% discount and some no discount at all.

Depends on SOOOOOO many factors....

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2011-09-03 05:40:31 and read 5313 times.

It looks as though DL's 100 x 739 order in fact represents an exercise of existing options on 738s, which would explain how they secured early slots:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...icative-of-urgent-fleet-needs.html

"Delta, which first announced the order on 25 August, said separately in a regulatory filing on 30 August that it is cancelling 126 existing options for 737-800s in exchange for an additional 30 options for the -900ER, on top of the 100 firm orders".

Net net, this all amounts to an increase of 4 options (100 + 30 - 126 = 4)!

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: USAF336TFS
Posted 2011-09-04 06:42:40 and read 4937 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 117):
Heard Delta cancelled 126 737-800 options and swapped for 30 737-900ER's.

Air Transport News and FlightGlobal's forum is reporting this, as well.

The deal was DL would cancel 60 options and 66 rolling options for the 737-800 and place an order for 100 737-900ERs and options for 30 more.

[Edited 2011-09-02 10:53:25]

I see no confirmation of this in the latest "Orders and Deliveries" section of Boeing's website.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: Stitch
Posted 2011-09-04 10:37:25 and read 4709 times.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 125):
I see no confirmation of this in the latest "Orders and Deliveries" section of Boeing's website.

The 100 737 orders are posted on the main page - http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: USAF336TFS
Posted 2011-09-04 11:04:55 and read 4658 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 126):
The 100 737 orders are posted on the main page - http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...x.cfm

Yes I saw that Stitch, but I do not see the corresponding cancellations.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: sxf24
Posted 2011-09-04 11:18:40 and read 4626 times.

Options are not included on the Orders and Deliveries page unless converted to a firm order. Options are "cancelled" all the time when not exercised.

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: mffoda
Posted 2011-09-13 13:31:48 and read 3941 times.

Looks like there will no additional order for anytime soon...

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...n-aircraft-order-anytime-soon.html

Quote:

"A major driver behind Delta's decision to cap aircraft orders at the 100 Boeing narrowbodies is keeping its capital expenditures in a $1.2-$1.4 billion band on an annual basis, explained Bastian."

Topic: RE: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)
Username: iceberg210
Posted 2011-09-13 13:50:45 and read 3854 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 116):
It's not that they are geared to "hooking some nutcase," it's that no one has any incentive to get them lower. Instead, everyone's incentives are to keep them high.

The manufacturer likes them high because they can offer bigger discounts and still get more revenue, and because deals will be reported as bigger in the media.

The buyer likes them high because then the sharply discounted transaction price makes management look like amazing negotiators..

Exactly
The industry I'm in for example (commercial roofing) is one where all the manufactures post their 'price' lists openly, but no roofer actually pays those list prices. Part of it is if you're price lists aren't 'near' what your bottom line prices are it's harder for the competitor to know where you're at. Secondly it makes it so your customer can feel good that he's getting 10,20,25,42 whatever percentage 'off list'. Finally it's handy because if an architect or someone wonders what these things 'really' cost they can see the price list, and when the roofer charges them 'list cost' they feel like "hey no markup was made on me" when really the roofer is making extra money. Much of the construction industry works EXACTLY like that.

I'm sure for the same reasons (granted larger stakes) the aircraft companies do a similar thing. I also bet if you saw a 'parts' price list it'd be the same way where people don't pay list.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/