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Topic: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: briguy1974
Posted 2011-09-14 19:56:16 and read 6637 times.

CP Air was notified on the 9th of September that they have cleared the first stage of certification. It was noted that 2.3 million dollars have been spent thus far in the certification process. Good Luck to them as they head towards a 121 cert.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2011-09-15 05:41:24 and read 6150 times.

On September 9, 2011, CP Air's application for Part 121 certification was accepted by the FAA. The company has also passed it first formal application meeting which tests the company's knowledge of processes and procedures of its operations manual system.

Next up is the Phase II of the application process once a lease has been signed for at least one aircraft. This phase, known as design assessment, is a detailed page by page assessment of the airline's manual system and training procedures. This is expected to be completed by the end of 2011. Phase III will involve a physical review of an aircraft's layout followed by proving runs. Proving runs are simulated full flight operations without passengers. It is designed to assess an applicant's performance in actual flight operations. Successful completion of proving runs is the final step before regulatory approval would be granted for a Part 121 certificate. If no significant issues arise, the company anticipates completion of the regulatory process around April of 2012.

CP Air is currently the only US applicant airline in the FAA formal 121 certification process.

Also on another website the VP of Maintenance was looking to hire a bunch of technical people. Is he jumping the gun a little bit if they're not going to be ready until April 2012 or is this normal lead time?

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: YXD172
Posted 2011-09-15 09:57:34 and read 5825 times.

Sorry for the stupid question, but what airline is CP Air?

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: longhauler
Posted 2011-09-15 10:01:33 and read 5814 times.

Quoting YXD172 (Reply 2):
Sorry for the stupid question, but what airline is CP Air?

It's sure not this one ....


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I know I am biased, but in my opinion calling another airline CPAir is like calling another airline Pan American, or Braniff ... there can be only one!

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: golfradio
Posted 2011-09-15 10:02:32 and read 5804 times.

Quoting YXD172 (Reply 2):
Sorry for the stupid question, but what airline is CP Air?
http://www.flycpair.com/

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: golfradio
Posted 2011-09-15 10:08:13 and read 5762 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):
I know I am biased, but in my opinion calling another airline CPAir is like calling another airline Pan American, or Braniff ... there can be only one!

  

Wouldn't AC now have the TM rights to the name CPAir?

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2011-09-15 10:16:01 and read 5719 times.

Damn, I had brief moment of excitement there, imagining a 777 in that orange colour scheme...  
Quoting golfradio (Reply 5):
Wouldn't AC now have the TM rights to the name CPAir?

You just beat me to it!

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: longhauler
Posted 2011-09-15 10:33:01 and read 5633 times.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 5):
Wouldn't AC now have the TM rights to the name CPAir?

I would guess no, only as it was called Canadian Airlines International and was owned by PWA Corporation when Air Canada bought them.

If anything, I would have thought Canadian Pacific might still retain rights to the name. Canadian Pacific was the parent company of the airline when it was sold to PWA Corp to form Canadi>n.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2011-09-15 10:43:34 and read 5574 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):

If anything, I would have thought Canadian Pacific might still retain rights to the name. Canadian Pacific was the parent company of the airline when it was sold to PWA Corp to form Canadi>n.

You have a point... the answer I suspect is buried within the transaction documents fo the sale from CP to PW to AC.... and within the technicalities ( what was filed and where, were filnigs maintained, etc). I imagine the (new) CP Air has a team of high-priced lawyers who have looked into the issue.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: CanadianDC10
Posted 2011-09-15 11:04:13 and read 5515 times.

I wish it were the real CP Air coming back instead of this new random american airline.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: WestJet747
Posted 2011-09-15 11:22:22 and read 5460 times.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 5):
Wouldn't AC now have the TM rights to the name CPAir?

Air Canada owns the rights to the Canadian Pacific Airlines trademark. This airline is called California Pacific Airlines. You can't sue another company because they have the same acronym! Can you imagine AC going to court and making the argument "We demand compensation because their name starts with the same letters as one of our trademarks!" The only people that would benefit from such a case are the lawyers.

A lawsuit isn't impossible though. Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment is suing the Association of Corporate Counsel over the ACC acronym (Air Canada Center for those non-hockey or basketball fans), and IHOP (International House of Pancakes) is suing IHOP (International House of Prayer) over that particular acronym.

In my opinion, it looks like the new CP Air has made no attempt to benefit from the trademark of the defunct CP Air. Therefore it would never hold up in court.

I wish all the best to them. I look forward to seeing a new airline enter the market that doesn't brand itself as "low-cost".

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2011-09-15 12:22:51 and read 5341 times.

Trademarks are only protected in the jurisdictions they're registered in. I have no idea if the old CP trademarks were also registered in the U.S.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: flycpair
Posted 2011-09-15 12:23:52 and read 5341 times.

Afternoon everyone. California Pacific Airlines does own the registered trademark to "CP Air." To see at it at the Patent and Trademark office, go to the following link and do a basic word mark search for "CP Air" :

http://tess2.uspto.gov/

Acronyms can be trademarked and can't be confusingly similar to one in a like industry. US Airways still owns the trademark to PSA, something they bought in the late 80's. A business entity has to show proof of public usage every seven years or the trademark expires. This partly explains why airlines love retro paint jobs such as the US A-319 in PSA colors. It allows US Airways to preserve the trademark by showing usage in commerce.

We can be followed on Twitter for future information at:

http://twitter.com/FlyCPAir

on Facebook at:

http://www.facebook.com/FlyCPAir

Any others questions we can answer?

[Edited 2011-09-15 12:30:09]

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: ScottB
Posted 2011-09-15 12:53:09 and read 5252 times.

Quoting flycpair (Reply 12):
S Airways still owns the trademark to PSA, something they bought in the late 80's. A business entity has to show proof of public usage every seven years or the trademark expires. This partly explains why airlines love retro paint jobs such as the US A-319 in PSA colors. It allows US Airways to preserve the trademark by showing usage in commerce.

US took care of that in the past by having its wholly-owned regional carriers use those old names -- Allegheny, Piedmont, and PSA. The latter two still exist under those names. But you're right that the "heritage" liveries probably preserve the trademarks on Allegheny and America West now.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 10):
A lawsuit isn't impossible though. Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment is suing the Association of Corporate Counsel over the ACC acronym (Air Canada Center for those non-hockey or basketball fans), and IHOP (International House of Pancakes) is suing IHOP (International House of Prayer) over that particular acronym.

The funny thing is that the Atlantic Coast Conference could probably sue Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment over the use of "ACC" in the sports domain given that they were established in 1953, long before there was even an Air Canada.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: YXD172
Posted 2011-09-15 13:16:23 and read 5161 times.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 6):
Damn, I had brief moment of excitement there, imagining a 777 in that orange colour scheme...

I was thinking along those lines until I saw that it was registering in the US. Thanks golfradio!

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: WestJet747
Posted 2011-09-15 14:00:15 and read 5095 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13):
The funny thing is that the Atlantic Coast Conference could probably sue Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment over the use of "ACC" in the sports domain given that they were established in 1953, long before there was even an Air Canada.

Normally yes....should they be registered in the same country. The Atlantic Coast Conference is American, whereas the Air Canada Center is located in Toronto! I'm assuming they have the ACC acronym registered only in their respective countries.  
Quoting flycpair (Reply 12):
We can be followed on Twitter for future information at:

http://twitter.com/FlyCPAir

on Facebook at:

http://www.facebook.com/FlyCPAir

Any others questions we can answer?

No questions, but I love that you guys are active on A-net! Community engagement will help you guys go a long way.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: NASCARAirforce
Posted 2011-09-15 15:59:38 and read 4963 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
I would guess no, only as it was called Canadian Airlines International and was owned by PWA Corporation when Air Canada bought them.

You would think that when Air Canada bought Canadi>n, they would have owned the rights to Pacific Western and CP Air too.

I was really hoping to see a new Canadian carrier called CP Air even it ended up just being another Canjet type carrier, but it would probably be another insult to the name like all those attempted Pan Am reincarnations.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-09-15 18:28:16 and read 4762 times.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 10):
Air Canada owns the rights to the Canadian Pacific Airlines trademark.

What's your source of that information? I think it would have been highly unlikely that Canadian Pacific, when they sold the airline to Pacific Western (which created Canadian Airlines) would not have included a provision preventing PWA from using the Canadian Pacific name for something totally unrelated to the former parent company. And that kind of agreement would almost certainly have carried forward when AC acquired Canadian.

About the only remnant of Canadian Pacific that survived the transition to Canadian Airlines was the CP IATA code.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: PI767
Posted 2011-09-15 19:05:32 and read 4695 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):
I know I am biased, but in my opinion calling another airline CPAir is like calling another airline Pan American, or Braniff ... there can be only one!

Or Ozark or Western... but yes. I totally agree. 100%. I know I will get flamed for this but I will say it anyways..... even today's Frontier (with the whole Midwest Express, Republic Airways, etc drama) is an insult to the company that once held that name. Then there was not only National # 2 (aka Private Jet) but also National # 3 (which was a fine airline I flew several times). But yes......it is all an insult to the carrier that once held that name,

In fact, I do believe, the Braniff family has now officially acquired that name, so that no one else can use it.

As far as CP Air, however, I do wonder..... CP Air was always "officially" Canadian Pacific Airlines. Even when the planes were silver with red and orange paint and bore the name "CP Air" they were really Canadian Pacific.

So that brings up the question: What name is protected by the CP Air name? CP Air or Canadaian Pacific? Or neither?

Regardless, as an airline geek, I am excited to see that a new airline may be starting up in the USA. It's been a long time since we have seen that. I really do wish the new CP Air good luck. It would be nice to see someone new in the skies.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-09-15 20:02:33 and read 4378 times.

Quoting PI767 (Reply 18):
As far as CP Air, however, I do wonder..... CP Air was always "officially" Canadian Pacific Airlines.

Not quite. The legal name was Canadian Pacific Air Lines (Air Lines, not Airlines).

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: F9Animal
Posted 2011-09-15 20:03:08 and read 4378 times.

Quoting flycpair (Reply 12):
Any others questions we can answer?

Yes sir!!! Do you have any aircraft yet??!!! LOL!  

Actually, not a question. I just wanted to extend my congrats on the first phase. I also wanted to thank you for keeping us up to date on airliners.net.

Oh heck!! When do you guys plan on flying to SEA?

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: WestJet747
Posted 2011-09-15 20:04:04 and read 4358 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
What's your source of that information?

I had made an assumption because my argument remains unchanged regardless of ownership of the trademark.

But, out of curiosity, I looked it up anyway! I couldn't find the trademark for "CP Air" itself (to be honest I didn't look that hard), but I found the trademark for complimentary titles such as "CP Air Saver Class" and "CP Air Holidays" registered with the Canadian Intellectual Property Office (CIPO), and it appears that they belong to Canadian Pacific Railway Company. Kind of fitting, eh!   

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: exFATboy
Posted 2011-09-15 21:17:50 and read 4257 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 11):
Trademarks are only protected in the jurisdictions they're registered in.

That's not entirely true - a trademark holder in one country can pursue legal action in another if there's a material possibility of consumer confusion, especially in a situation like that of the US and Canada, where there's strong media overlap and a common language.

For example, both Nickelodeon and the now-defunct UPN network ran into trademark trouble with Canada's CTV network, Nick over a program name (they called a news program Nick News W-5, where CTV has had a program called W-5 or W-Five since the 1960s), and UPN over their first logo, which had the initials in a square, circle, and pyramid colored red, green, and blue...same concept as the CTV logo which had been used for many years. Nickelodeon dropped the "W-5" out of the name and UPN changed one of the colors to yellow, then went to three-dimensional metallic shapes (they later redesigned the logo entirely).

Quoting PI767 (Reply 18):
Even when the planes were silver with red and orange paint and bore the name "CP Air" they were really Canadian Pacific.

A trademark and a company's legal name aren't the same thing - you can trademark any product name. Apple's name doesn't even have an "i" in it, yet they've trademarked iPad, iPhone, etc., and have pursued other companies for giving their products similar names.

If they hadn't already, I'm sure Canadian Pacific trademarked the "CP Air" name at the time the CP Air livery was introduced.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: flycpair
Posted 2011-09-15 22:14:27 and read 4193 times.

All versions of the trademark for "CP Air" in Canada, on its own or in conjunction with other phrases, were either cancelled, abandoned, or expunged.

We are close to signing leases for our initial pair of Embraer 170's which are required to enter Phase 2 of the formal FAA Part 121 certification process.

CP Air is focused on receiving regulatory approval and beginning service from Carlsbad, CA to our initial five US destinations. In our second year of operation, we are looking at a variety of possible cities to add to our route network.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: PI767
Posted 2011-09-15 23:10:01 and read 4118 times.

Quoting flycpair (Reply 23):
All versions of the trademark for "CP Air" in Canada, on its own or in conjunction with other phrases, were either cancelled, abandoned, or expunged.

We are close to signing leases for our initial pair of Embraer 170's which are required to enter Phase 2 of the formal FAA Part 121 certification process.

CP Air is focused on receiving regulatory approval and beginning service from Carlsbad, CA to our initial five US destinations. In our second year of operation, we are looking at a variety of possible cities to add to our route network.

Randy, I for one, want to wish you guys the best of luck. As I said in a previous post, it has been a long time since we have seen a new face in the American skies and it will be nice to see someone new. Good luck. Please keep us updated.

PI767

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2011-09-16 02:39:11 and read 4127 times.

Quoting flycpair (Reply 12):
Any others questions we can answer?

With CLD's short (4897') runway how far can the E170s go? I think SJD/SEA would be a stretch without a severe penalty. Have you scaled back from 3 to 2 classes? How will you market the airport...San Diego/Carlsbad or Carsbad/San Diego North, etc.?

Thanks

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2011-09-16 08:04:17 and read 3969 times.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
Normally yes....should they be registered in the same country. The Atlantic Coast Conference is American, whereas the Air Canada Center is located in Toronto! I'm assuming they have the ACC acronym registered only in their respective countries

In order to file a trade mark applicaiton (or resist an application by another entity for a confusing mark to your own), the owner of the mark needs to show that it was used in the country in question, and in the industry (or else it is not "confusing").

So, if I try to trademark "CP" as a cupcake business, that would not be "confusing". Unless I use lots of orange icing.

Quoting exFATboy (Reply 22):
That's not entirely true - a trademark holder in one country can pursue legal action in another if there's a material possibility of consumer confusion, especially in a situation like that of the US and Canada, where there's strong media overlap and a common language.

Correct - I beleive that if (old) CP Air was stuill uising the mark, and new CP Air attempted to trademark that name (old) CP Air can oppose that trademark by showing prior use, in the industry and in the US, whether or not it has registered a trade mark.

Quoting flycpair (Reply 23):
All versions of the trademark for "CP Air" in Canada, on its own or in conjunction with other phrases, were either cancelled, abandoned, or expunged.

Thanks for your comments. As suspected, (new) CP Air actually thought of the issue and has taken care if it.

Good luck!

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: briguy1974
Posted 2011-09-16 09:56:36 and read 3912 times.

flycpair,


When do you plan on hiring station managers and staff for your initial destinations. My resume is sitting in an electronic vault somewhere....Would love the chance to sit down and interview with your team .

Brian

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: flycpair
Posted 2011-09-16 10:47:27 and read 3856 times.

The Embraer 170 can fly 1,100NM from Carlsbad's (CLD) runway with a full load of 70 passengers with 1.33 checked bags per passenger at 88 degrees. This is including 20 minutes of hold fuel, 75 miles of divert fuel, and 45 minutes of reserve fuel. Coming back to Carlsbad, there is no restriction on the aircraft's 2,100NM range. These figures were arrived at using our FAA approved Dispatch system using EMB-170 aircraft with 14,500lb thrust GE engines.

Our 70-seat 3-class seating configuration is listed on our website at:

http://www.flycpair.com/about/aboutAircraft.htm

The middle class will be a premium economy product. With the decision to have a first class, that removes one row of seats from the aircraft. This leaves 15 inches of legroom that will be added to the first five rows of coach. Given the amount of business and high end leisure traffic in Northern San Diego, this allows CP Air to offer a better product for higher fare classes, upgrades for status, and for purchased upgrades from coach. The type of service this section receives will be disclosed when our flights are first available for sale early next year (pending regulatory approval.)

The airport will be marketed as San Diego North located in Carlsbad, CA.

Assuming our certification schedule of events proceeds as planned, station personnel interviews would begin just after the turn of the year in order to have stations staffed and trained for our anticipated certification proving runs in March.

And contrary to any rumors above, we aren't going into the orange cupcake business. Thanks everyone for your interest in California Pacific Airlines/CP Air.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: B727FA
Posted 2011-09-16 15:01:21 and read 3628 times.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 1):
CP Air is currently the only US applicant airline in the FAA formal 121 certification process.

As opposed to the more casual Part 12.1 process.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: Coronado990
Posted 2011-09-16 15:13:01 and read 3614 times.

flycpair,

Quoting flycpair (Reply 28):
Given the amount of business and high end leisure traffic in Northern San Diego, this allows CP Air to offer a better product for higher fare classes

I would have thought that SFO would have been one of your first markets from CLD based on the above fact opposed OAK, which caters to the LCC crowd. SFO is also now the busiest city pair from SAN surpassing OAK after WN and VX entered the market a couple of years back.

Do you intend on having eventual non-stop service to SFO from Carlsbad or is the cost of doing business there that much higher then OAK? Is it the bad on-time record at SFO? I know how bad the weather can be there sometimes. (Didn't Air California's first flight from SNA end up diverting to Half Moon Bay for this reason?). Anyway, I was just curious on your thoughts of serving SFO in the future.

Thanks,

Coronado990

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: futureualpilot
Posted 2011-09-16 16:54:58 and read 3521 times.

Quoting flycpair (Reply 28):
Assuming our certification schedule of events proceeds as planned, station personnel interviews would begin just after the turn of the year in order to have stations staffed and trained for our anticipated certification proving runs in March.

Best of luck, as a north county San Diego native I can't wait to see/join you guys!

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: flycpair
Posted 2011-09-17 10:29:06 and read 3266 times.

There are several reasons Oakland was chosen over San Francisco as one of CP Air's initial destinations from Carlsbad, CA.

Operational reliability was a prime concern. Oakland has one of the best on-time records for a major airport in the US and has few weather issues. San Francisco is in the bottom third owing to frequent fog which limits simultaneous arrivals on its two overly close parallel runways leading to frequent arrival delays. These delays meant the average flight time would have to be 15-20 minutes longer for SFO vs. OAK and would have cost us one round-trip daily from an aircraft's utilization (only four vs. five R/T's.) Establishing a reputation for on-time reliable flights right from the beginning (subject to regulatory approval) will be easier flying to Oakland.

Greater competition in SFO has also led to lower prevailing average fares vs. the East Bay area. It's not as bad now as it was eighteen months ago when a brutal fare war drove SAN-SFO fares 40% below norms. Lower OAK facility costs are a mild bonus. SFO may have more traffic, but that is only one factor in evaluating a market. Stronger average fares given fewer competitors, and the higher resulting revenue generation, especially considering more efficient aircraft utilization, all favored Oakland.

Oakland also makes for a great alternative as it is located closer to downtown San Francisco than SFO. Both driving or using BART is quicker from Oakland. Oakland is also the more requested airport by some of our future top corporate accounts.

CP Air is considering many potential destinations and San Francisco will be considered as one of many future options.

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: Coronado990
Posted 2011-09-17 12:42:46 and read 3156 times.

Quoting flycpair (Reply 32):
Stronger average fares given fewer competitors, and the higher resulting revenue generation, especially considering more efficient aircraft utilization, all favored Oakland.

Absolutely! I can see that being on time is one less headache during your teething period. I'd just hate to see UAX jump in this route since I am rooting for you guys. It is fascinating watching the process of starting an airline. Something I've studied all my life and right here in my own backyard. Good luck! I'll be on your first flight.

Coronado990

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: TZTriStar500
Posted 2011-09-17 17:06:07 and read 3043 times.

Quoting PI767 (Reply 18):
I know I will get flamed for this but I will say it anyways..... even today's Frontier (with the whole Midwest Express, Republic Airways, etc drama) is an insult to the company that once held that name.

Sorry to hijack this thread a bit, but I cannot leave this unstated. While I am no huge F9 fan and certainly appreciate the history of this industry, this statement is just absurd when the current Frontier was started by a group from the original airline. Because it now has different leadership and ownership (i.e. Republic) than when it was founded its now illegitimate?  

Topic: RE: CP Air Clears First Of Several FAA Hurdles
Username: multimark
Posted 2011-09-17 17:19:14 and read 2989 times.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 6):
Damn, I had brief moment of excitement there, imagining a 777 in that orange colour scheme...

I've always thought it was a shame Air Canada did not do retrojet liveries incorporating the various airlines that had been folded into it. And CP Air's "Big Orange" would be top of the list:


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