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Topic: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: bastew
Posted 2011-10-26 06:06:53 and read 8752 times.

A month ago BA and QANTAS announced changes to their Joint Services Agreement (JSA) on the 'kangaroo route' flights between Australia and Europe. Under the JSA QF and BA not only codeshare on each others flights but also share costs, profit and loss on the JSA routes.

The main change to the existing JSA was that BA would cease flying the Bangkok to Sydney leg, instead flying only the London to Bangkok part of the journey. Likewise, qantas would cease the Bangkok - London leg on their own metal instead operating only as far as BKK from SYD then transferring passengers to BA for the onward journey to Europe.

These changes were to reduce costs and increase the competitiveness of BA and QF on the kangaroo route which is one of the most competitive in the world given they compete with nearly every Asian and middle eastern carrier, many of which also offer one stop services.

Makes sense, right?

Then can anyone explain why they would come up with such an UNcompetitive schedule???

Currently BA9 departs London at 22:00 and arrives in BKK at 1515 the next day. The aircraft remains on the ground for just under two hours before departing at 1650 and arriving in Sydney at 0605 day three.

On the return journey BA10 departs Sydney for Bangkok at 1735 and arriving at 2245. A short refueling and it departs again at 00:10 arriving into heathrow at 0555.

Likewise QF. QF2 departs LHR for BKK 2215 arriving 1540. Departs BKK at 1710 arriving into Sydney at 0615. QF departs Sydney at 1805 touching down into BKK at 2310. A short stop on the ground and she takes off again at 0045 and lands into LHR at 0625.

All pretty seamless eh?

Let's now look how the joint schedule via BKK will be from the changes in march.

BA9 will depart London at 2215 landing into BKK at 1530. The continuing QF flight will then depart at 20:55 (!!!) over FIVE hours later to land into Sydney at 0900. The return is no better. The QF flight from Sydney will depart at 1235 and arrive into Bangkok at 18:55. Again, over five hours later BA10 will depart at 0020 arriving in London at 0630.

Now correct me if I am wrong but these changes were meant to 'improve' competitiveness? It seems to do anything but! Why would BA and QF come up with such a ridiculous joint schedule? I know that curfew times have to be taken into consideration but why has QF felt the need to bring the SYD BKK sector more forward from the current 1710 SYD departure that would connect perfectly with the BA flights in both directions? BA couldn't bring their return flight any further forward as they would hit the night curfew into LHR.

Is QF setting this joint venture up for failure deliberately? Is it another ploy to 'talk down' QF mainline operations?

[Edited 2011-10-26 06:16:10]

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: simairlinenet
Posted 2011-10-26 07:37:21 and read 8547 times.

Have you considered that perhaps it improves overall competitiveness across the JV, but not necessarily on these segments? Assuming that the schedule via Singapore is competitive, then the JV could price discriminate and route lower-yielding passengers via Bangkok.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: bastew
Posted 2011-10-26 09:05:31 and read 8398 times.

That may well be the case simair. The flights via SIN have generally been higher yielding due to the number of onward destinations served from SIN versus BKK. But I fail to see how it would give Ba or qf any cost advantage to create a timetable with dreadful connections. The only thing it seems to achieve is inconvenience to passengers. The overall cost savings were to be generated by increasing aircraft utilisation for both airlines as well as reduced crea costs. I can't see how it would reduce costs further by having passengers wait 5+ hours for their onward flights.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: gabrielchew
Posted 2011-10-26 09:47:33 and read 8296 times.

Yeah, the BKK schedule does seem rather odd. On BA.com, they actually say this: Warning - your connecting flight leaves on the next day. You may need to arrange overnight accommodation for this connection. Not what you normally see on a supposed through flight. I'm sure BA/QF thought this through.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: planesarecool
Posted 2011-10-26 10:12:47 and read 8225 times.

Remember that capacity on the route is being cut in half, and there is a significant amount of demand between LHR/BKK and SYD/BKK. It seems that they are simply trying to route all UK-OZ passengers through SIN, while making the LHR-BKK and BKK-SYD flights more favourable for those beginning or ending their journey in Bangkok.

The BA flight has no flexibility, a later arrival into BKK isn't possible as it would mean departing LHR after the curfew, and a significantly earlier departure from BKK would result in an arrival to early for the curfew. The QF aircraft would need to spend around 18 hours on the ground in BKK if it were to connect conveniently to the BA flight.

The way they've done it means connecting through BKK is still an option, but the timings are more convenient for passengers to/from BKK and are a much more effective use of aircraft.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: bastew
Posted 2011-10-26 10:25:47 and read 8187 times.

Quoting planesarecool (Reply 4):
The BA flight has no flexibility, a later arrival into BKK isn't possible as it would mean departing LHR after the curfew, and a significantly earlier departure from BKK would result in an arrival to early for the curfew. The QF aircraft would need to spend around 18 hours on the ground in BKK if it were to connect conveniently to the BA flight.

Exactly. If QF kept their SYD/BKK/SYD timings as they are now the flights would have connected up beautifully. It seems like they've almost gone out of their way to make the timings as inconvenient as possible.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: B747-4U3
Posted 2011-10-26 11:00:02 and read 8086 times.

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 1):
Have you considered that perhaps it improves overall competitiveness across the JV, but not necessarily on these segments? Assuming that the schedule via Singapore is competitive, then the JV could price discriminate and route lower-yielding passengers via Bangkok.

I suspect that is what they are trying to do.

Of late Bangkok has only had a connection to Sydney whereas Hong Kong and Singapore have had connections with BA/QF to more Australian cities. I suspect the plan is to force more passengers through those hubs which offer a better level of connectivity.

It has been posted on here before that priority is given to LHR-SYD pax to ensure good loads on all legs - so LHR-BKK tickets will only be sold if LHR-SYD demand is low or BKK-SYD demand is such that the flight has a decent load on that leg. By ending the "tag-ons" each airline can focus on O&D traffic to BKK which might be higher yielding. Any spare capacity could then be sold off cheap as "compensation" for the long transit times.

It will be interesting to see how the arrangement works. BKK is very competitive price wise with strong competition from Middle Eastern airlines with one-stop services and EVA Air with a non-stop service. BKK is often one of the cheaper East-Asian destinations to fly to. In the past - before the mass influx of Middle Eastern carriers - BA operated a terminator flight to BKK (3 or 4 times per week with a 772 if I remember correctly) in addition to their daily Bangkok -Sydney service. The arrangement did not last long. It is also interesting to note that Air France will soon only be operating to Bangkok with a 3 weekly 77W in a leisure configuration. How BA will do this time with stronger competition from the Middle Eastern carriers will be interesting to see. I can't see the LHR-SYD traffic being particularly high-yielding given the long connection times. LHR-BKK traffic in Y is typically low-yielding due to strong competition, so I guess the success of the route depends upon how much premium traffic there is that will favour a non-stop service with BA over transiting in the Middle East. When the route was announced I was rather surprised not to see it down-guaged (BA to a 772 and QF to a 333) - having said that I'm sure BA and QF have a very good idea of how much traffic there is on the route.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2011-10-26 11:05:45 and read 8064 times.

Quoting bastew (Reply 2):
But I fail to see how it would give BA or QF any cost advantage to create a timetable with dreadful connections.

What it will do is make such connections via BKK less attractive, and thus encourage more O&D traffic on the individual segments (LHR-BKK-LHR and BKK-SYD-BKK). Total revenue from two separate passengers on those sectors will no doubt be significantly higher than the through fare for a passenger travelling all the way LHR-SYD. Seems to make sense to me, and as long as their schedules via SIN are competitive I don't see the problem.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: TravellerPlus
Posted 2011-10-26 13:51:55 and read 7782 times.

The story of BKK is not about end to end traffic. Something like 70% of the Kangaroo route passengers make a stopover. BKK is a popular stopover point and the new timetables will suit the vast majority of people.

The 30% of the market who fly straight through will be well catered for with the SIN timetable that offers fast connections.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: qfatwa
Posted 2011-10-26 14:40:43 and read 7681 times.

Quoting planesarecool (Reply 4):
The QF aircraft would need to spend around 18 hours on the ground in BKK if it were to connect conveniently to the BA flight.
Quoting bastew (Thread starter):
The continuing QF flight will then depart at 20:55 (!!!) over FIVE hours later to land into Sydney at 0900. The return is no better. The QF flight from Sydney will depart at 1235 and arrive into Bangkok at 18:55.

It is all in the scheduling of the aircraft - the QF aircraft into BKK has a 2 hour turnaround - so it leaves Sydney, arrives BKK, has a two hour transit time, then returns to SYD. It is about efficient use of a piece of metal, not about offering customer service and seamless, time valuable connections.

Additionally, two aircrafts' capacity [one of each airline is halved to one aircraft between the two airlines], so the number of seats on the JSA has dropped by 1 x 747 per day. This is the QANTAS of 2011-2012.

[Edited 2011-10-26 14:43:22]

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: Airvan00
Posted 2011-10-26 17:15:34 and read 7447 times.

Quoting TravellerPlus (Reply 8):
The story of BKK is not about end to end traffic. Something like 70% of the Kangaroo route passengers make a stopover. BKK is a popular stopover point and the new timetables will suit the vast majority of people.

The 30% of the market who fly straight through will be well catered for with the SIN timetable that offers fast connections.

         This was explained when the service was announced. The aircraft do not need to connect, in fact for utilisation it is better that they don't. If you what to stopover in BKK you take the BKK flight. If no stopover is required you take the SIN flight.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: VV701
Posted 2011-10-26 17:29:57 and read 7413 times.

There is more to "competitiveness" than having the shortest journey elapsed time.

Costs are very clearly reduced on the new schedules. With the price of a new VL aircraft being well over $200 million turning the BA aircraft round after 2 hours on the ground is very much preferable to leaving it on the ground not generating revenue at SYD for 11 hrs 30 mins. And the QF return flight leaves LHR a mammoth 15 hrs 50 mins after the current flight arrives from BKK. In future the QF aircraft will head back to SYD only 2 hrs after its arrival at BKK improving utilisation of one aircraft by almost 14 hrs per day.

I assume that this significant cost improvement will allow BA/QAF to be either more price competitive or to be more profitable on the Kangaroo route.

Further surely the time of the departure and arrival is important and sometimes more important than the elapsed journey time. To shorten the journey time on the LHR-BKK-SYD flight by decreasing the stopover time in BKK you would either have to postpone the departure from LHR at 2215 - which is not a real option because of the night curfew - or time the arrival at SYD much earlier than 0900. Me thinks that many passengers might actually prefer to arrive in SYD at the new 0900 instead of the current 0600, particularly after such a long journey. Saving three hours at that time of day may not be on all passengers' agendas.

The reverse journey is not so good. Many will prefer the current early evening departure to the new lunch time departure. But not arriving at LHR before six in the morning may be seen by many as an improvement, although 0630 is still pretty early.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: richardw
Posted 2011-10-27 01:52:36 and read 5695 times.

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 10):
If you what to stopover in BKK you take the BKK flight. If no stopover is required you take the SIN flight.

Exactly. That's the logic.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: koruman
Posted 2011-10-27 04:29:25 and read 5009 times.

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 10):
If you what to stopover in BKK you take the BKK flight. If no stopover is required you take the SIN flight.

The problem with that is that the Qantas/BA product is so vastly inferior to the Singapore Airlines alternative if you are flying through Singapore.

I live in Queensland, but generally use Air New Zealand and Etihad for long-haul flights.

Last weekend for the first time in many years I flew Qantas long-haul Business Class into a port into which I normally fly on NZ, and was astonished at just how far behind contemporary high-end standards the Qantas long-haul Business product now is.

The list is endless. The amenity pack is cheap. The seat is mediocre. The IFE is laughable. The menu is cheaply printed and the food on offer is substandard. The food is served on a cheap plastic tray on a tablecloth. There isn't even a proper choice of bread. The toilets are spartanly decorated and only have one cheap liquid soap.

I know that there are significant numbers of nationalistic one-eyed Australians, but the product is so far below Singapore Airlines standards that I cannot imagine flying QF through SIN in preference to SQ.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: TruemanQLD
Posted 2011-10-27 04:46:37 and read 4902 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
The problem with that is that the Qantas/BA product is so vastly inferior to the Singapore Airlines alternative if you are flying through Singapore.

Wow, think I have heard this before...

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
I live in Queensland, but generally use Air New Zealand and Etihad for long-haul flights.

And this as well....

Please, as I have said many times before, if the QF product is really that bad, why would QF still be serving over 34 million passengers annually? I am not saying the QF product is as good as the SQ product, but I dont think the difference is as bad as you, repeatedly, make it out to be.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: richardw
Posted 2011-10-27 04:50:32 and read 4879 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
I cannot imagine flying QF through SIN in preference to SQ.

and some 'cannot imagine flying QF/BA via BKK in preference to TG'.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: sandyb123
Posted 2011-10-27 05:16:45 and read 4728 times.

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 14):
why would QF still be serving over 34 million passengers annually?

Price.

Sandyb123

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: koruman
Posted 2011-10-27 14:27:44 and read 4223 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
The problem with that is that the Qantas/BA product is so vastly inferior to the Singapore Airlines alternative if you are flying through Singapore
Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 14):
Wow, think I have heard this before
Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 14):
And this as well....

Please, as I have said many times before, if the QF product is really that bad, why would QF still be serving over 34 million passengers annually?

Look, I don't like Qantas management but I was happy to give them a go on my recent trip to North America because their timetable suited me.

I didn't anticipate that their hard and soft product were so poor compared with Air New Zealand's long-haul product in each class. I was genuinely surprised.

And I think it's pretty brave to route via Singapore, because everything QF does there SQ can do far, far better.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: The Coachman
Posted 2011-10-27 14:53:39 and read 4176 times.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 16):
Price.

Can't be.

Their fares to Europe are some of the highest.

For some it's the whole false economy of "let's get FF points". For others it's the reality that they are QF FF within Australia and may as well fly QF to get status credits, points etc.

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
The IFE is laughable.

I haven't flown QF longhaul in almost 5 years. However, according to the respective QF and NZ websites, the QF 380 IFE trumps NZ's latest 77W offering.

IIRC, the 380's IFE is to be fitted into the remaining 744's shortly (some have already been refurbished).

If you got a 744, well, it is what it is.

But to categorically state that the QF hard product is behind the times is NQR. Soft product has never been QF's strong point, despite its attempts to assert to the contrary. It's fine if you fit a certain passenger type, but if you don't fit it, it's hit and miss. But its hard product of late hasn't been that uncompetitive.

Btw, when was the last time you flew SQ? Apparently you mostly fly NZ and EY.

My experience is that SQ's soft-product whilst still superior has not hit the heights it used to. And if you cop a 77E (or 744) without the refurbished Y product, the IFE is markedly inferior to even QF's 2006 system (my last SQ flight was Christmas last year). It's only superior if you get a refurbished 773 or 772 with new regional J, 380, 77W or 330.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: steex
Posted 2011-10-27 15:17:16 and read 4137 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
The problem with that is that the Qantas/BA product is so vastly inferior to the Singapore Airlines alternative if you are flying through Singapore.

This argument doesn't make sense to me - SQ through SIN has a vastly superior product to QF/BA through BKK as well. Unless we're suggesting that people flying LHR-XXX-SYD are choosing QF/BA solely because they badly want to connect in BKK, then every QF/BA routing would have this problem against SQ. And in the event that someone does badly want to go to/through BKK, then the new JV schedule accommodates this without problem.

My point is I don't think anyone would happily fly QF/BA end-to-end from Australia to Europe via BKK or HKG, but then be disappointed in the exact some product if they fly via SIN.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2011-10-27 15:56:23 and read 4083 times.

Why every one considering SAME DAY transit via BKK with that 5 Hour delay.

Thats NOT the point many passengers disembark in BKK stay over a few nights then continue on.

This arrangement is STILL accommodated LON-BKK-SYD, however if you do want to go all the way obviously your going via Sin or more likely via a Middle East hub from your local airport missing LHR completely !

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: qf002
Posted 2011-10-27 15:59:13 and read 4081 times.

Quoting bastew (Reply 5):
Exactly. If QF kept their SYD/BKK/SYD timings as they are now the flights would have connected up beautifully. It seems like they've almost gone out of their way to make the timings as inconvenient as possible.

Which is the point, of course. I wouldn't be surprised to see this route go to JQ down the road (it's going to have to based on the number of planes they're going to have come 2013/14...)

Quoting TravellerPlus (Reply 8):
Something like 70% of the Kangaroo route passengers make a stopover. BKK is a popular stopover point and the new timetables will suit the vast majority of people.

And flight times don't matter for stopping pax -- they can run the flights whenever and remain equally competitive with other airlines.

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
The problem with that is that the Qantas/BA product is so vastly inferior to the Singapore Airlines alternative if you are flying through Singapore.
Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 14):
Wow, think I have heard this before...
Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 14):
And this as well....

I was thinking the same thing, TruemanQLD!

Quoting steex (Reply 19):
This argument doesn't make sense to me - SQ through SIN has a vastly superior product to QF/BA through BKK as well.

One could say that SQ also has a 'vastly superior' product to TG, EK, EY, CX etc (subjective, yes) and yet plenty of traffic still travels with them. It's a flawed argument that koruman uses to hijack threads that are about totally different topics...

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: infinit
Posted 2011-10-27 21:18:00 and read 3915 times.

So the rationale is switch their transit point from SIN to BKK for QF/BA to increase their kangaroo route loads as they lose money transitting through SIN because SQ is a superior airline?

I think the logic behind it is fundamentally flawed. Never flown QF but I cant imagine it being that much worse in Y.. Y is Y afterall. Secondly, TG is a very good airline as well.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: koruman
Posted 2011-10-27 21:53:28 and read 3872 times.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 21):
It's a flawed argument that koruman uses to hijack threads that are about totally different topics...

I think that that is exceptionally harsh, and not pertinent to this thread.

A major recurring feature in this thread is that Qantas appears to be making it inconvenient to fly through Bnagkok to/from London and seems to be funnelling through traffic via Singapore.

I am arguing that that illustrates perfectly the flawed management planning processes at Qantas, because as usual it forgets that passengers have a choice.

Passengers will find themselves with the choice of flying LHR-SIN-Australia on Qantas, or LHR/MAN-SIN-Australia on Singapore Airlines.

If they choose Singapore Airlines, they will have manifestly superior hard and soft product in First Class, Business Class and Economy Class. The only class in which Qantas will be able to compete will be Premium Economy, because SQ does not offer it.

Qantas does not compete on price, and I can only assume that it retains the market share it still has by virtue of blind loyalty to its frequent flyer program.

I seem to be derided for having chosen to pony up to fly Qantas long-haul Business Class, and then having the temerity to criticise several substandard aspects of it.

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):

- The amenity pack is cheap.
- The seat is mediocre.
- The IFE is laughable.
- The menu is cheaply printed
- The food on offer is substandard.
- The food is served on a cheap plastic tray on a tablecloth.
- There isn't even a proper choice of bread.
- The toilets are spartanly decorated and only have one cheap liquid soap.

You can criticize me for pointing those failings out. But you must understand that Qantas long-haul is supposedly already a money-loser, and narrowing the Kangaroo Route down to essentially one route in which the opposition outclasses Qantas by a massive margin is a creative solution to that problem.

And that is highly relevant to this thread.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: koruman
Posted 2011-10-27 22:13:27 and read 3845 times.

Quoting infinit (Reply 22):
So the rationale is switch their transit point from SIN to BKK for QF/BA to increase their kangaroo route loads as they lose money transitting through SIN because SQ is a superior airline?

No.

The argument is that if Qantas continue to offer routes to London via Hong Kong, Bangkok and Singapore they have a diversified portfolio and attract several different markets.

But if they put all their eggs in the Singapore basket, they are putting them all in a basket in which everyone can see and taste the fact that another merchant in the same place offers far superior eggs.

And that is a risky strategy.

And if you look at how TruemanQLD and qf002 have shouted down my observations about how inferior QF Business Class is, you will see that there is very little intention to actually try to elevate standards to contemporary levels, just a "34 million passengers each year seem to think it's good enough for them" mentality.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: steex
Posted 2011-10-27 22:18:39 and read 3899 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 23):
A major recurring feature in this thread is that Qantas appears to be making it inconvenient to fly through Bnagkok to/from London and seems to be funnelling through traffic via Singapore.

I am arguing that that illustrates perfectly the flawed management planning processes at Qantas, because as usual it forgets that passengers have a choice.

Passengers will find themselves with the choice of flying LHR-SIN-Australia on Qantas, or LHR/MAN-SIN-Australia on Singapore Airlines.

My point is that they had that choice regardless. Flying on Singapore Airlines via SIN was already a choice offering superior service to QF or BA via BKK (or even HKG), so people who wanted to take that service would do so. Unless someone is making a stopover (in which case the schedule change at BKK has no negative effect), they aren't going to make their UK-Australia decision based on connecting airport but rather airline. The connecting airport is incidental - SQ isn't only competition for QF flights through Singapore, it's competition to all UK-Australia flights through all stopping points on all airlines.

In other words, nobody is saying "Alright, I want to go from Sydney to London. I see I can fly through Bangkok, so I guess it's either Qantas or Thai Airways. I think I'll take Qantas, that sounds good. Wait, Qantas wants me to go through Singapore - I guess in that case, Thai isn't a choice, I have to choose between Qantas and Singapore Airlines. In that case, Qantas has an inferior product, so I guess I'll fly Singapore Airlines."

People who want to fly SQ are already doing that and stopping at SIN instead of BKK or HKG (or, for that matter, DXB, AUH, KUL, ICN, etc.). Most people flying QF currently are already aware of SQ as an alternate option and yet still choosing to fly QF via SIN, BKK, or HKG. The reduction in convenience at BKK is unlikely to make those people choose SQ instead, they'll just take a different QF routing.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: 6thfreedom
Posted 2011-10-27 23:12:11 and read 3861 times.

Quoting TravellerPlus (Reply 8):
The story of BKK is not about end to end traffic. Something like 70% of the Kangaroo route passengers make a stopover. BKK is a popular stopover point and the new timetables will suit the vast majority of people.

The 30% of the market who fly straight through will be well catered for with the SIN timetable that offers fast connections.

I don't agree. Thailand (with BKK as the gateway) has a much higher % of Origin/destination traffic than Singapore or indeed KUL. about 70% of traffic to and from BKK is OD.

on the other hand, Singapore has a much higher % of traffic, probably 70% transit and only 30% OD.

therefore, QF and BA can command higher fares for point to point pax to/from BKK.

given that it's predominantly a leisure destination, i think Y fares will be pushed up, and the service will be offered for an J class frequent flyer redemptions.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: alangirvan
Posted 2011-10-27 23:48:42 and read 3844 times.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 26):
therefore, QF and BA can command higher fares for point to point pax to/from BKK.

given that it's predominantly a leisure destination, i think Y fares will be pushed up, and the service will be offered for an J class frequent flyer redemptions.

SYD-BKK is one sector where QF has to directly compete against EK, so there will be price competition, and BA have to compete on price against one stop flights by EK and other carriers.

One thing that is being lost is the daylight departure from LHR for Australia by BA and QF. A lunchtime departure, and early morning arrival into the Asian port, and then an early evening arrival into the Australian city. The curfews at LHR and SYD do make the traditional times difficult - solved by a long transit stop in Asia, or a pre 0600 arrival into SYD - hoping you do not wake too many babies - you hope that the over water approach is available. Daylight departures from LHR still seem to work for the Asian carriers, so why are QF/BA limiting choice of departure times?

You ask why do people still fly QF/BA? It may not be so strict now, but there are still some corporate customers who fly flag carriers. I know corporate travel departments have a practice of giving the clients the best "three fares of the day", but if the airline gives bulk discounts on lounge membership etc, the choice of airline will often go one way. You may not think the walk up fare on QF or BA is very low, but the big customers pay a lot less than the walk up price.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: richcandy
Posted 2011-10-27 23:58:53 and read 3821 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 23):
If they choose Singapore Airlines, they will have manifestly superior hard and soft product in First Class, Business Class and Economy Class. The only class in which Qantas will be able to compete will be Premium Economy, because SQ does not offer it.

I don't know if its still the same as its a few years since I worked in the industry. However 10 years ago if you had a passenger who wanted to fly LHR-SYD and was not interested in a stopover. And EK, SQ, CX, TG, & BA/QF all offered the same fare. Then 9 times out of 10 they would pick BA/QF regardless of the fact the product was not as good. I am not sure how much of this was to do with the feeling that LHR-SYD was one flight with a stop rather than 2 flights with a change of aircraft.

I just wonder is this the beginning of the end for direct services by BA/QF between the UK and Australia? Is the next move going to be that QF/BA will just connect at SIN with neither QF aircraft going to London or BA aircraft going to SYD?

Alex

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: TruemanQLD
Posted 2011-10-28 00:26:27 and read 3779 times.

Quoting richcandy (Reply 28):
I just wonder is this the beginning of the end for direct services by BA/QF between the UK and Australia? Is the next move going to be that QF/BA will just connect at SIN with neither QF aircraft going to London or BA aircraft going to SYD?

I see BA services to SYD eventually ending, however I think it will be many, many years before QF stops flying to London/Europe.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: ManekS
Posted 2011-10-28 00:59:53 and read 3723 times.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 26):
I don't agree. Thailand (with BKK as the gateway) has a much higher % of Origin/destination traffic than Singapore or indeed KUL. about 70% of traffic to and from BKK is OD.

on the other hand, Singapore has a much higher % of traffic, probably 70% transit and only 30% OD.

therefore, QF and BA can command higher fares for point to point pax to/from BKK.

given that it's predominantly a leisure destination, i think Y fares will be pushed up, and the service will be offered for an J class frequent flyer redemptions.

Really? Please link us to where you found the O&D/Transit percentages for BKK and SIN. It's very ignorant to assume 70% of SIN's traffic is transit .. 30% or lower would be a more accurate guess. Singapore is one of the world's biggest financial hubs and one of the most popular tourist destinations in Asia. Qantas deliberately set up shop in SIN to benefit from the numerous high yielding passengers and multinational corporations with operations here. Their new premium Asian airline is also most likely to be based in Singapore, a further testament to the importance of the hub to Qantas.

LHR-BKK/SIN-SYD is a long route, on which BA and QF tie up a lot of aircraft. From their viewpoint, it makes much more sense to fly their own metal all the way to SYD/LHR via SIN because lets them fill the plane with F and J pax whereas going via BKK would fill the plane with low yielding Y pax. Therefore, BA & QF terminating their flights at BKK means they are wasting less resources on a very low yielding sector, and are thus making better use of their capital.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2011-10-28 01:43:58 and read 3655 times.

Quoting ManekS (Reply 30):
LHR-BKK/SIN-SYD is a long route, on which BA and QF tie up a lot of aircraft. From their viewpoint, it makes much more sense to fly their own metal all the way to SYD/LHR via SIN because lets them fill the plane with F and J pax whereas going via BKK would fill the plane with low yielding Y pax. Therefore, BA & QF terminating their flights at BKK means they are wasting less resources on a very low yielding sector, and are thus making better use of their capital.

Very true. Both Singapore and Hong Kong are important finance hubs in a way the Kula Lumpur and Bangkok are not. It's always gonna be easier to sell premium out of that kind of city. I would argue though everytime I have been on QF32 etc I do see the majority of the aircraft reboard. That being said, what is happening in the premium cabins? If say 60% of economy passengers connect straight through no big deal. But if only say 40% of the premium passengers do, then that's a lot of O &D business traffic to singapore. I would also argue it is probably easier for SIA to sell O & D passengers from singapore because it will have a much easier time getting corporate accounts for those based there, even from say, Australian or British companies.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: B747-4U3
Posted 2011-10-28 03:59:57 and read 3504 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
The problem with that is that the Qantas/BA product is so vastly inferior to the Singapore Airlines alternative if you are flying through Singapore.

As steex has said, this option has always been available. Those wanting to go from Europe to Australia, Europe to Singapore or Singapore to Australia have always had the SQ option, yet BA and QF continue to successfully fly the route. I doubt anyone going directly from Europe to Australia really cares whether they have to change planes in Singapore, Bangkok or Hong Kong. They are probably more interested in price, service and schedule.

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
I live in Queensland, but generally use Air New Zealand and Etihad for long-haul flights.

I can't speak for SQ, NZ or QF as I haven't flown any of them. I have frequently flown BA in Club World. I have recently tried Etihad for the first time in Pearl Business class and was very impressed, however all things considered it was not that different from BA - both have pros and cons. Even the seats are similar yet have their own pros and cons.

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
The list is endless. The amenity pack is cheap. The seat is mediocre. The IFE is laughable. The menu is cheaply printed and the food on offer is substandard. The food is served on a cheap plastic tray on a tablecloth. There isn't even a proper choice of bread. The toilets are spartanly decorated and only have one cheap liquid soap.

Based on my recent experience on Etihad, the amenity pack was cheap, the IFE was appalling (I didn't even bother opening my headphones on 3 or the 4 legs), the food was served on a cheap plastic tray on a tablecloth, I had no choice of bread (unlike BA) and the toilets only had a cheap liquid soap.

Quoting koruman (Reply 24):
The argument is that if Qantas continue to offer routes to London via Hong Kong, Bangkok and Singapore they have a diversified portfolio and attract several different markets.

But if they put all their eggs in the Singapore basket, they are putting them all in a basket in which everyone can see and taste the fact that another merchant in the same place offers far superior eggs.

They are not, you can still connect through BKK (with a 5hr wait) and HKG.

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 27):
One thing that is being lost is the daylight departure from LHR for Australia by BA and QF.

BA are adding a 3 weekly Lunchtime departure from LHR and Morning departure from HKG which will connect in both directions with Australia services by Qantas. I would imagine that this will go daily in time considering the flight times are quite convenient for those wishing to go from London to Hong Kong as well.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: qf002
Posted 2011-10-28 06:38:05 and read 3375 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 23):
I think that that is exceptionally harsh, and not pertinent to this thread.

I do apologise if I offended you, but your post was nothing more than a rant about how dreadful you think QF is in comparrison to SQ. Nothing was mentioned about QF management, or the actual topic at hand -- connections through BKK from the March 2012 changes...

What you did say was:

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
The problem with that is that the Qantas/BA product is so vastly inferior to the Singapore Airlines alternative if you are flying through Singapore.

What's that got anything to do with "The Logic of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK"? I also happen to disagree, but that's a different debate.

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
Last weekend for the first time in many years I flew Qantas long-haul Business Class into a port into which I normally fly on NZ, and was astonished at just how far behind contemporary high-end standards the Qantas long-haul Business product now is.

Again, what has that got anything to do with QF/BA connections in BKK?

Quoting koruman (Reply 13):
I know that there are significant numbers of nationalistic one-eyed Australians, but the product is so far below Singapore Airlines standards that I cannot imagine flying QF through SIN in preference to SQ.

And again?

Quoting koruman (Reply 23):
You can criticize me for pointing those failings out. But you must understand that Qantas long-haul is supposedly already a money-loser, and narrowing the Kangaroo Route down to essentially one route in which the opposition outclasses Qantas by a massive margin is a creative solution to that problem.

And that is highly relevant to this thread.

Nothing in your post at reply 13 did that. In any case, that has been discussed at length, and has zilch to do with connections between QF and BA in BKK...

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 32):
BA are adding a 3 weekly Lunchtime departure from LHR and Morning departure from HKG which will connect in both directions with Australia services by Qantas. I would imagine that this will go daily in time considering the flight times are quite convenient for those wishing to go from London to Hong Kong as well.

These services are strangely unavailable via online bookings... All the LHR-SYD flights route you via the QF/BA JSA flights via SIN, and multi-city booking just return with errors. I'm getting the impression that, considering that HKG was never included in the JSA anyway, that this BA flight is just to let BA pick up those OW pax who were flying QF.

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: B747-4U3
Posted 2011-10-28 10:35:09 and read 3272 times.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 33):
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 32):
BA are adding a 3 weekly Lunchtime departure from LHR and Morning departure from HKG which will connect in both directions with Australia services by Qantas. I would imagine that this will go daily in time considering the flight times are quite convenient for those wishing to go from London to Hong Kong as well.

These services are strangely unavailable via online bookings... All the LHR-SYD flights route you via the QF/BA JSA flights via SIN, and multi-city booking just return with errors. I'm getting the impression that, considering that HKG was never included in the JSA anyway, that this BA flight is just to let BA pick up those OW pax who were flying QF.

I was always under the impression that LHR-(HKG)-MEL was covered by the JSA, but the individual LHR-HKG and HKG-MEL segments were not. QF 29/30 is also BA 7317/7318 but this codeshare appears to only apply to the whole leg from MEL to LHR (if you search for HKG-LHR only the QF code appears). Perhaps I misunderstood.

It is interesting how services via HKG are unavailable to book. I think I probably misunderstood the reason for the addition of those flights. I was under the assumption that the situation that has happened in BKK would also apply to HKG (i.e. BA would operate LHR-HKG-LHR whilst Qantas operates just the Australia segments). The fact that these flights are not bookable suggests that this may not be the case. As far as I was aware MEL-LHR (via HKG) on QF 29/30 was covered by the JSA, but BA's LHR-HKG flights, for example, were not (so you could not travel BA LHR-HKG and then QF HKG-SYD under the JSA). Perhaps therefore, the additional BA flight is simply to fill the void left by QF on the HKG-LHR-HKG segments only (rather than be part of the JSA a la BKK).

Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the JSA would be able to clarify the situation?

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: qf002
Posted 2011-10-28 20:10:06 and read 3058 times.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 34):

To be fair I was looking at booking a stopover in HKG, rather than a through flight connecting in HKG, for next July. I was going to call QF Travel and see what they could do, but then my plans changed and so I never ended up calling.

It all seems very confusing to me -- I was under the impression that the JSA only covered through services anyway, so there's a chance BKK connecting pax aren't covered either (from the changes, that is).

Topic: RE: The Logic Of Joint BA/QF SYD-LHR Via BKK
Username: alangirvan
Posted 2011-10-28 20:48:43 and read 3018 times.

i thought the idea of an alliance was that you could make up a journey with a stopover where ever it suits you. Between UK and Australia as well as SIN/HKG/BKK it would be possible to travel via Japan, South Africa (with a slight surcharge for the extra distance), via China, India or South America if BA and QF serve the same city, or maybe use a short side trip between SCL and EZE.


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