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Topic: UA, DL and Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: olddominion727
Posted 2012-01-04 02:19:46 and read 4712 times.

How come AS can fly OAK to OGG, HNL, KOA, LIH and HA to OGG & HNL but Western/DL, UA, World Airways, Hawaii Express, Suntrips, TZ couldn't make it work?

Topic: UA, DL and Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: jetjack74
Posted 2012-01-04 02:54:04 and read 4668 times.

Most likely it boiled down to operating costs, and the fact that AS is operating the route with the 737, whereas the others were operating it with a DC10, Tristar or 767. And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.

Topic: UA, DL and Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: olddominion727
Posted 2012-01-04 04:04:39 and read 4586 times.

hmmm, TZ used the 738 from OAK and UA used DC8. You're right, they rest were DC10's except HA's 763, I just find it odd that HA & AS are making OAK & SJC work very well and expanding. A friend who's ground crew in KOA was told to be on the watch for SEA-KOA (daily), OAK-KOA (3x week), SJC-KOA (3 week), PDX-KOA (Seasonal Wed Only) hmmm. I guess we'll have to wait and see. Thanks for the input.

Topic: UA, DL and Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: Tomassjc
Posted 2012-01-04 04:08:19 and read 4582 times.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 2):
. A friend who's ground crew in KOA was told to be on the watch for SEA-KOA (daily), OAK-KOA (3x week), SJC-KOA (3 week),

This is the current AS schedule. OAK-KOA and SJC-KOA go daily in March.  

Tom SJC

Topic: UA, DL and Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-01-04 06:24:27 and read 4410 times.

This is why: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SJC-SFO-OAK&MS=wls&DU=mi

Why add frequencies to the same place, from a place only 30 miles from where you currently operate from? I understand it takes those people longer to get to SFO and it's a slightly different catchment, but I don't think that justifies having the extra frequencies.

[Edited 2012-01-04 06:25:14]

Topic: UA, DL and Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: wedgetail737
Posted 2012-01-04 06:47:32 and read 4341 times.

There are other airline company issues or plans that are completely irrelevant to routes that caused them to be discontinued. WA served OAK-HNL with 707's. The service ended years before the WA/DL merger. WO ended OAK-HNL service when they moved their headquarters out of OAK and ended all scheduled service. ATA just stopped all scheduled service...same with AQ. UA just has bigger fish to fry. UA barely has any service out of OAK nowadays.

AS and HA seized the opportunity left by the void from AQ and ATA, now that both have more-than-capable of aircraft.

It's interesting that HA serves all three Bay Area airports. Whereas, it only serves LAX from the Los Angeles Basin.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: DeltAirlines
Posted 2012-01-04 07:20:27 and read 4270 times.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):

It's interesting that HA serves all three Bay Area airports. Whereas, it only serves LAX from the Los Angeles Basin.

Not as much when you consider that a 767-300 couldn't make it to HNL out of SNA (and likely not out of BUR on all days, let alone being able to park that plane at BUR) and LGB is slot restricted and maxed out.

That only leaves ONT, and the Inland Empire has been hit pretty badly by the recession, so there might not be demand for 250 seats a day to Hawaii out of that airport right now.

The Bay Area airports don't have the runway/space/slot concerns that face 3/5 SoCal airports which makes a huge difference.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: us330
Posted 2012-01-04 07:48:52 and read 4201 times.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 6):
That only leaves ONT, and the Inland Empire has been hit pretty badly by the recession, so there might not be demand for 250 seats a day to Hawaii out of that airport right now

IIRC, didn't HA at one point serve ONT-HNL around 2003/2004?

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: wedgetail737
Posted 2012-01-04 08:14:45 and read 4112 times.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 6):
That only leaves ONT, and the Inland Empire has been hit pretty badly by the recession, so there might not be demand for 250 seats a day to Hawaii out of that airport right now.

Good point.

Quoting us330 (Reply 7):
IIRC, didn't HA at one point serve ONT-HNL around 2003/2004?

Yes...briefly using DC-10's.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-01-04 08:25:06 and read 4078 times.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 8):
Quoting us330 (Reply 7):
IIRC, didn't HA at one point serve ONT-HNL around 2003/2004?

Yes...briefly using DC-10's.

UA tried it very briefly also with DC-8s back when they did SJC and OAK to HNL with DC-8s. Didn't last very long.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: as739x
Posted 2012-01-04 08:32:07 and read 4048 times.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):

Western, was bought by DL (SLC hub)
World Airways, went out of business
United, Their West Coast hub 11 miles across the bay
Suntrips, Operated for a charter service
ATA, liquidated

I think this hardly mean OAK-Hawaii service wasn't flyable. It's the fact that the airline was not successful.

Alaska has a very strong business model. They have the right a/c for the route. They offer serve from numerous west coast destinations.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):

Which city exactly does AS not have competition from? Other then ANC, I believe Hawaiian serves every West Coast city AS serves. They have Legacy carriers from all their hubs as well. I think there is plenty of competition from the West side.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-01-04 08:44:58 and read 3999 times.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
WA served OAK-HNL with 707's. The service ended years before the WA/DL merger.

Exactly. I don't remember DL (as DL) ever having service from OAK to HNL, even after the DL/WA merger.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: malaysia
Posted 2012-01-04 08:51:48 and read 3976 times.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
It's interesting that HA serves all three Bay Area airports. Whereas, it only serves LAX from the Los Angeles Basin.

Even serves SMF too up the road from the Bay Area  

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-01-04 08:58:29 and read 3945 times.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Most likely it boiled down to operating costs, and the fact that AS is operating the route with the 737, whereas the others were operating it with a DC10, Tristar or 767. And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.

That's part of it, and a lot of what Alaska has done isn't really new necessarily, but working to fill in some of the gap left by Aloha and ATA.

How many of AS's Hawaii flights are codeshares? That could give them a lot more potential passengers to help make these routes work when they can tap into other FF bases.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-01-04 09:03:09 and read 3936 times.

The whole premise of OP thread question is simply misinformed.

Quoting as739x (Reply 10):
I think this hardly mean OAK-Hawaii service wasn't flyable. It's the fact that the airline was not successful.

  .

Each of the airlines had a life changing event take place. Either a shutdown like ATA/Aloha, or merger, or shift in network and strategy which drove the changes at Oakland as a by product.

One can hardly link the withdrawal of Oakland-Hawaii flying as being a standalone event on economic performance grounds.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 8):
Yes...briefly using DC-10's.

Actualy was on a 763. ONT operated between June 2002 and March 2004.

At the time of the cut, Hawaiian Air spokesmen stated the cut was related to the need of aircraft to operate the then recently announced Sydney services.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2012-01-04 09:06:17 and read 3914 times.

Another thing is that west coast-Hawaii flights are heavily discounted. Since Hawaii is primarily a leisure destination rather than a business market that would attract high value customers, I have heard that no one really makes any money on them but they are stuck flying them for competitive reasons. Florida flights are much the same. DL flies there with the 757-300 (probably the least comfortable aircraft ever built) but the passengers are happy. Who would not be happy going to Hawaii?

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: AWACSooner
Posted 2012-01-04 09:24:08 and read 3869 times.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):
And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.

Whew...good thing HA is limited to the Islands and can't fly to the west coast  

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-01-04 09:26:40 and read 3863 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 15):
Another thing is that west coast-Hawaii flights are heavily discounted. Since Hawaii is primarily a leisure destination rather than a business market that would attract high value customers, I have heard that no one really makes any money on them but they are stuck flying them for competitive reasons.

If that were in any way true we wouldn't see nearly as many frequencies to the islands. You think UA flights LAX-HNL 8x daily during summer for "competitive reasons" that aren't MONEY?   

[Edited 2012-01-04 09:28:59]

[Edited 2012-01-04 09:29:57]

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: ha763
Posted 2012-01-04 19:59:41 and read 3508 times.

I wouldn't say that ATA couldn't make OAK-Hawaii work. Their Hawaii routes were doing well, just not well enough to overcome the other circumstances that caused it to shut down. The other airlines were trying to fly the route at a time when flying out of secondary airports to Hawaii just did not work.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Actualy was on a 763. ONT operated between June 2002 and March 2004.

At the time of the cut, Hawaiian Air spokesmen stated the cut was related to the need of aircraft to operate the then recently announced Sydney services.

The route was also a money loser. HA tried to get more pax to try out ONT by moving the LAX-LAS tag on to ONT-LAS, but it didn't work.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-01-04 20:08:37 and read 3468 times.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 16):
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):
And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.

Whew...good thing HA is limited to the Islands and can't fly to the west coast

He's sort of correct. I think he's referring to the point-to-point routes that AS flies. No-one else flies SEA-LIH, BLI-HNL, SJC/OAK-LIH/KOA, SMF-OGG, SAN-OGG, PDX-KOA, etc. In that sense, AS doesn't have competition. Sure you can fly HA on SJC-HNL-LIH or connect BLI-SEA-OGG, but AS doesn't have direct non-stop competition on many of their Hawaii routes.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: milesrich
Posted 2012-01-05 11:33:44 and read 3145 times.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Most likely it boiled down to operating costs, and the fact that AS is operating the route with the 737, whereas the others were operating it with a DC10, Tristar or 767. And AS has virtually no competition on west coast-Hawaii.

After TALOA discontinued their service with B-377's in about 1960, I think Western was the next airline to offer OAK to HNL service. In the early and mid 70's, WA operated a round robin flight, SJC-OAK-HNL-SJC with 720-047B's. Eventually, as I recall, they operated nonstops from both SJC and OAK with the 720B's. The 347C's were used on charters and I flew on them between both SFO and LAX to and from SEA.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-01-05 12:21:42 and read 3096 times.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 20):
In the early and mid 70's, WA operated a round robin flight, SJC-OAK-HNL-SJC with 720-047B's. Eventually, as I recall, they operated nonstops from both SJC and OAK with the 720B's.

Yes, WA did eventually break them out to non-stops, occasionally with 707-320Bs too. UA entered the SJC-HNL and OAK-HNL market around 1977 or so with DC-8s, and briefly DC-10s. IIRC, both WA and UA did those flights at the same time for awhile.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: olddominion727
Posted 2012-01-05 12:35:20 and read 3065 times.

Just learning something new about my home airport of SJC, I never knew they flew to HNL... good to know. I love learning.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: timz
Posted 2012-01-05 12:39:13 and read 3050 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 9):
UA tried it [ONT-HNL] very briefly also with DC-8s back when they did SJC and OAK to HNL with DC-8s.

Some OAGs showed a ONT-HNL flight that was to start some months later (June 1979, maybe)-- but I think when that date rolled around the flight had evaporated.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: n471wn
Posted 2012-01-05 12:44:30 and read 3032 times.

Bottom line is that AS is doing all the right things relative to Hawaii while the carriers who now serve Hawaii only through HNL are just living on borrowed time. Yes there will always be a need for a strong mainland to HNL route but HNL as a needed connection point to the other islands is diminshing every day---Thank you AS!!

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: wedgetail737
Posted 2012-01-05 18:31:50 and read 2949 times.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 24):
Bottom line is that AS is doing all the right things relative to Hawaii while the carriers who now serve Hawaii only through HNL are just living on borrowed time. Yes there will always be a need for a strong mainland to HNL route but HNL as a needed connection point to the other islands is diminshing every day---Thank you AS!!

I appreciate the fact that AS has been opening up new mainland-Hawaii routes that avoid the need for connections. There's probably room for more like SMF-KOA/LIH or PDX-LIH.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-01-05 19:03:53 and read 2907 times.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 25):
I appreciate the fact that AS has been opening up new mainland-Hawaii routes that avoid the need for connections. There's probably room for more like SMF-KOA/LIH or PDX-LIH.

Yeah, they can't do much more from SEA, SJC and OAK unless they start MKK or ITO. I don't think the runways at HNM are MUE are long enough for flights to the mainland.  

AS doesn't have a whole lot left to connect the dots, except for the routes you state and maybe BLI-OGG.

What will be interesting to see is if AS adds any more mainline markets to Hawaii. They already passed on getting slots at LGB.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: timz
Posted 2012-01-06 09:00:16 and read 2691 times.

Quoting timz (Reply 23):
Some OAGs showed a ONT-HNL flight that was to start some months later (June 1979, maybe)-- but I think when that date rolled around the flight had evaporated.

I was wrong-- the OAGs show a daily UA DC8 in summer 1977, 1978 and 1979. Probably ran from June to September each year.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: milesrich
Posted 2012-01-06 09:07:06 and read 2678 times.

Quoting timz (Reply 27):
Quoting timz (Reply 23):
Some OAGs showed a ONT-HNL flight that was to start some months later (June 1979, maybe)-- but I think when that date rolled around the flight had evaporated.

I was wrong-- the OAGs show a daily UA DC8 in summer 1977, 1978 and 1979. Probably ran from June to September each year.

Were those flights operated with DC-8-61's, (D8S), or regular body DC-8's or DC-8-62's.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: swabrian
Posted 2012-01-06 09:15:45 and read 2668 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
Yes, WA did eventually break them out to non-stops, occasionally with 707-320Bs too. UA entered the SJC-HNL and OAK-HNL market around 1977 or so with DC-8s, and briefly DC-10s. IIRC, both WA and UA did those flights at the same time for awhile.

I transferred to OAK with DL in May 1977 and left when the station closed in September 1979. WA was flying a 707-300 in all coach configuration. IIRC, they dropped the flight not long after I got there, and were down to just OAK/SLC service. The WA guys kept the old papier-mache Volcano used to serve punch on the flights at the cargo facility and they threw it out after the service was dropped. Wished I had dumpster-dived for it. UA was operating a DC-8-62 to HNL the entire time I was in OAK--they didn't have any widebody service through OAK at the time.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-01-06 09:19:46 and read 2659 times.

Quoting swabrian (Reply 29):
I transferred to OAK with DL in May 1977 and left when the station closed in September 1979.

I remember that.......I helped Mike Fortier drive out there when he transferred from ORD.

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: timz
Posted 2012-01-06 09:42:08 and read 2638 times.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 28):
DC-8-61's, (D8S), or regular body DC-8's or DC-8-62's.

8/77 and 7/78 show DC8, 7/79 shows D8S ("DC-8 all 60 series").

Topic: RE: UA, DL And Hawaiian Service From OAK
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-01-06 11:11:28 and read 2579 times.

Quoting timz (Reply 31):
Quoting milesrich (Reply 28):
DC-8-61's, (D8S), or regular body DC-8's or DC-8-62's.

8/77 and 7/78 show DC8, 7/79 shows D8S ("DC-8 all 60 series").

I never saw a "Stretch-8" at SJC for the Hawaii service. I believe it was all DC-8-50s. (UA did fly a DC-8-61 SJC-DEN though).


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