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Topic: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: acidradio
Posted 2012-02-29 11:42:23 and read 9507 times.

Not sure if this has already been discussed here but...

Delta eliminating more jobs at MSP Airport
Minneapolis / St. Paul Business Journal by Ed Stych, Web Producer
Date: Wednesday, February 29, 2012, 11:48am CST

Delta Air Lines Inc. said Wednesday it is closing a warehouse at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport, eliminating 66 jobs in the Twin Cities.

The warehouse will close May 16, with its operations being consolidated with similar facility in Atlanta, Delta said in a memo to employees. Delta said it was making the move to improve its efficiency and productivity.

News reports earlier in February had hinted at the cuts; according to an internal memo, Delta was considering cutting as many as 150 jobs.


http://www.bizjournals.com/twincitie...elta-air-lines-warehouse-jobs.html

66 more jobs to leave Minnesota. I guess it was inevitable. I would think this would slow down the procurement of parts for broken aircraft (especially in a hub!) but it seems like all of the other airlines consolidate their parts stores into very few or even one location like DL is trying to do here anyways. It must work somehow.

When someone puts the words "Delta", "jobs" and "MSP" into a paragraph it starts a very "lively" discussion. There is always a lot of debate here about "DL is dismantling MSP piece-by-piece" vs. "DL would be foolish to get rid of MSP - it is one of their biggest and most profitable hubs!" Discuss.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: peanuts
Posted 2012-02-29 11:55:18 and read 9420 times.

As a company, you simply have to look at efficiencies. From multiple angles. If you can't control oil, you can control other things. If this involves shipping some families from MN to GA, so be it.

Shrinking is eagerly seen, by media and employees, in a negative light. Maybe shrinking also keeps the majority of the employees employed long term. It keeps the company healthy. Most folks don't consider that.

It's DL's duty to cut the waste.

If operating a hub from MSP makes money, it would have ZERO to do with a warehouse and vice versa.
DL will keep operating a hub at MSP for as long as the MN O&D passengers appreciate it and are willing to pay for it.
If the money is there, it will stay.
Let's not put MSP on the MEM and CVG pile please. Apples and oranges.

DL paid off a hefty sum of money to shut the MN officials up. Shut up is all they can...

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: TOMMY767
Posted 2012-02-29 11:58:45 and read 9383 times.

Does DL have any corporate offices at MSP anymore or is it all ATL?

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2012-02-29 12:13:23 and read 9235 times.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 2):
Does DL have any corporate offices at MSP anymore or is it all ATL?

We have offices at Building C (Attached to the hangers), and Building J (which is in Eagan). Building N (traning center) is closing soon.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-02-29 12:18:06 and read 9172 times.

Quoting acidradio (Thread starter):
There is always a lot of debate here about "DL is dismantling MSP piece-by-piece"

This is what airline mergers do. Many people always cheer when UA and CO merger, or FL + WN or even at the prospect of DL + AS. And the executives promise they'll keep all the hubs. That's until the day after the merger, of course.

Mergers benefit the executives, maybe some short-term shareholders, maybe some lawyers and investment bankers on Wall Street, and little else IMHO. Certainly not the consumers, communities or most employees.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: peanuts
Posted 2012-02-29 12:35:08 and read 9080 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
Certainly not the consumers, communities or most employees.
Most employees benefit, I'd say. A few don't.
Most consumers benefit.
The only reason communities don't benefit is they were marginal to begin with. The economics of running an airline have changed, over the last 30 years. TWA and PanAm and Eastern became the first extinct ones because of it.

Mergers became necessary because airlines also had a difficult time growing all alone in the environment they operated in and to keep costs contained. We can complain about communities all we want. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Some communities would have lost without mergers. We just never know now, will we?

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-02-29 12:44:23 and read 9007 times.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
Most consumers benefit.

How? Reduction in service in many markets and higher fares. I disagree.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: sunking737
Posted 2012-02-29 12:48:07 and read 8972 times.

I see all the NWA/RCA buildings at MSP closing in the next few years. "C" World will end up being sold off to a company like AAR or maybe Sun Country will take it over from M.A.C. and put their world headquarters there. (tough in cheek)

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: peanuts
Posted 2012-02-29 12:51:21 and read 8962 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 6):
How?

I think we are gonna have to agree on disagreeing. Let's cut to the chase and spare us a long debate.  

I thought this blog gives a few decent opinions.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.c.../who-benefits-when-airlines-merge/

It's basically hit or miss, mergers in general. I just like the positive angle of it and the positive outcomes it has generated for many companies and jobs and communities. There is a dark side to anything in life though.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: BD338
Posted 2012-02-29 12:51:55 and read 8962 times.

I don't see this in anyway related to any dismantling of a MSP hub, DL has a big loyal FF following in MSP and by all accounts the hub is very profitable (should be at some of the fares they charge!) but this is more of DL cramming as much infrastructure into ATL as they can. It might be more efficient on the accountants spreadsheet but I wonder how the risk managers looked at this from 'all eggs in one basket' angle. There seems to be an ongoing reduction in diversification of resource locations and lack of 'back up' sites in case of a serious business interruption at ATL. I guess it was looked at but the spreadsheet outweighed the risks.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: peanuts
Posted 2012-02-29 13:03:00 and read 8857 times.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 9):
It might be more efficient on the accountants spreadsheet but I wonder how the risk managers looked at this from 'all eggs in one basket' angle. There seems to be an ongoing reduction in diversification of resource locations and lack of 'back up' sites in case of a serious business interruption at ATL.

Very fair points.

I think DL is also, as a side benefit to all this rightsizing, attempting to redefine and emphasize the DL Culture. Some of this will accomplish that. It eliminates lingering resentment (if there is any) and brings in ATL "outsiders" into the fold.
Also, a UNITED and FOCUSED Delta is good for SkyTeam. AF is gonna have to be "dealt with" at some point. A strong centralized DL will only benefit SkyTeam when painful discussions come about.

[Edited 2012-02-29 13:12:25]

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: Dalmd88
Posted 2012-02-29 13:33:16 and read 8704 times.

Closing the wharehouse makes complete sence. We do most of the aircraft work in ATL so most of the parts should be in ATL. There will still be a Line store room in MSP but most of the parts will be in ATL. It really amazes us in the ATL hangar the times we are told we are out of stock on a part that only gets used on a C check, but they have a bunch sitting on a shelf in MSP. This move will in no way impact the hub operation, but will help the hangar checks in ATL.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-02-29 13:58:41 and read 8583 times.

[quote=peanuts,reply=10]AF is gonna have to be "dealt with" at some point. A strong centralized DL will only benefit SkyTeam when painful discussions come about.[/quote ]Please explain.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: sxf24
Posted 2012-02-29 14:05:59 and read 8538 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 6):
How? Reduction in service in many markets and higher fares. I disagree.

If there was no merger, consumers might benefit in the short term from having more service and lower fares. However, once one of the carriers went bankrupt or exited the market because of overcapacity, consumers would probably be worse off.

Consumers, communities, and employees ultimately benefit from having financially viable airlines that can afford to pay their bills and invest in making existing service more viable with new aircraft and other infrastructure.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2012-02-29 14:30:58 and read 8425 times.

Can someone answer the question of the jobs left at MSP besides the daily flight operations? I see maintenance and a few offices are left. Anything else? Thanks.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-02-29 15:16:43 and read 8272 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 14):
Can someone answer the question of the jobs left at MSP besides the daily flight operations? I see maintenance and a few offices are left. Anything else? Thanks.

Mostly IT and admin stuff to which they are actually hiring for right now.

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 11):
Closing the wharehouse makes complete sence. We do most of the aircraft work in ATL so most of the parts should be in ATL. There will still be a Line store room in MSP but most of the parts will be in ATL. It really amazes us in the ATL hangar the times we are told we are out of stock on a part that only gets used on a C check, but they have a bunch sitting on a shelf in MSP. This move will in no way impact the hub operation, but will help the hangar checks in ATL.

   Unfortunately, only those actively involved in the likes of MTC and stores will understand. As it is, Atlanta has one expeditor if i'm not mistaken and he's spoken to me time and time again about how the full kitten is a mess for the overnight work in ATL due in large part to most of the Red Tail stuff still being stored in Minneapolis. I think folks are not realizing that the front desk stores department at the hanger will remain in tact and this move will not affect overnight work up there or the MRO contracts.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: KarlB737
Posted 2012-02-29 15:17:50 and read 8273 times.

Quoting acidradio (Thread starter):
Delta eliminating more jobs at MSP Airport

This is a report out of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune

Delta Plans To Shut Down MSP Warehouse

http://www.startribune.com/business/140867323.html

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: airbuske
Posted 2012-02-29 16:33:37 and read 8050 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 3):
We have offices at Building C

If you mean offices without any people in them, then yes! Bldg C is already ghost town. The tower will be completely vacant in the next week or so.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2012-02-29 19:34:34 and read 7689 times.

Quoting airbuske (Reply 17):

If you mean offices without any people in them, then yes! Bldg C is already ghost town. The tower will be completely vacant in the next week or so.

There are still quite a few people in Sales in the MSP Building C office.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2012-02-29 19:41:23 and read 7658 times.

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 11):
Closing the wharehouse makes complete sence. We do most of the aircraft work in ATL so most of the parts should be in ATL. There will still be a Line store room in MSP but most of the parts will be in ATL. It really amazes us in the ATL hangar the times we are told we are out of stock on a part that only gets used on a C check, but they have a bunch sitting on a shelf in MSP. This move will in no way impact the hub operation, but will help the hangar checks in ATL.

I slightly disagree with you on this one, with the MRO work that is now also being done in MSP, they should be working to grow those facilities to relieve some of the ATL work, not everything has to be done in Atlanta, I don't know why we continue to think that it does. Secondly, as far as being out of stock on parts, that's more or a poor planning/parts management. I think Delta could have leveraged MSP to make more money expanding facilities to in source rather than bring everything to Atlanta.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-02-29 20:18:30 and read 7554 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 19):

Its not quite that simple Chris. I was on the Tech Ops side before I moved to where I'm at now and I can tell you that the other stations pretty much rape the warehouse in Atlanta and that's why they have to source for certain parts out of DTW, MSP, JFK, etc etc. As to growing MRO. That's has nothing to do with stores closing. The fact of the matter is that ATL sees far more RONs than MSP does and that's why most of the in-house work is done there. Concourse C would usually have 1, maybe 2 a/c. D would have a couple. F usually has the a/c coming from LAX, LAS, DTW, and 2034. G will have a few and the rest is parked out by the hanger adjacent to G (the lone 76Q parks right in front the hanger by the de-ice fill station).

Bottom line is its business as usual and I do see DL leveragin MSP for future MRO work as ATL is pretty much out of floor space with all the NA stuff they regularly get along with the Navy C-40s and whatever else they get on a weekly basis.

Just a side note but Tony Charaf stepped down from the President position at Tech Ops to take on the role of MRO Chief. He said his life goal at DL moving forward will be to grow the business from $500M to a $1B. Lots of things happening in the near future including MSP just keep your ear to the ground  Smile

[Edited 2012-02-29 20:24:21]

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2012-03-01 00:18:21 and read 6509 times.

DL should keep MSP up and running if they are making money by having it as a hub I find it curious that DL (and NW before them) has been able to keep hubs at both MSP and DTW, given their proximity. But if it works, it's more convenient for the traveling public, so I say keep MSP as long as it's profitable!

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: nwaesc
Posted 2012-03-01 05:16:12 and read 5803 times.

Quoting airbuske (Reply 17):
The tower will be completely vacant in the next week or so.

What?!

As for the stock clerks losing their jobs, they have 4 choices:

*Move to ATL
*Apply for an open position on the system (maybe MSP, maybe not)
*Take the severance/early out
*Take the layoff


So much for "no frontline jobs lost as a result of the merger."  

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: peanuts
Posted 2012-03-01 05:26:42 and read 5741 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 12):
Please explain.

Lol. It was kind of meant tongue-in-cheek.
There is a bit of validity to my statement in that the french are not always easy partners to work with. DL is way more ambitious, efficient and business minded as compared to AF. It has led to "disagreements". Let's leave it at that  

A cohesive DL, as one front, will have a lot of leverage during SkyTeam meetings. DL is becoming more and more a well oiled machine (still lots of things to be done though). AF and KL...what can I say? The fact we are dealing with 2 headquarters should tell you something...

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-03-01 05:32:14 and read 5711 times.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 22):
So much for "no frontline jobs lost as a result of the merger."

I don't beleve that stock clerks are fronline employees

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: nwaesc
Posted 2012-03-01 06:17:57 and read 5555 times.

Fair enough; once again, we'll have to agree to disagree. I just think the "family" can do better by these guys...

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-03-01 06:53:51 and read 5333 times.

[quote=nwaesc,reply=25]Fair enough; once again, we'll have to agree to disagree. I just think the "family" can do better by these guys...



What is your definition of a "front line employee? Obviously it is different than mine.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: TOMMY767
Posted 2012-03-01 06:58:14 and read 5413 times.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 21):

MSP is one of DL's most reported profitable hubs.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-03-01 07:25:30 and read 5284 times.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 22):

All 66 employees will have the opprotunity to relocate, or if they don't want to, I've been told by the Ramp GM that Atlanta will create ramp and gate jobs for them if they do not want to retire or move to Atlanta. If they're too good for ACS then yes I guess you can look at it as a layoff.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: nwaesc
Posted 2012-03-01 07:31:46 and read 5222 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 26):
What is your definition of a "front line employee? Obviously it is different than mine.

Of course it is! Lol.

Seriously, my definition would be any scale employee that works at an ATO.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 28):
All 66 employees will have the opprotunity to relocate, or if they don't want to, I've been told by the Ramp GM that Atlanta will create ramp and gate jobs for them if they do not want to retire or move to Atlanta. If they're too good for ACS then yes I guess you can look at it as a layoff.

Create jobs for them where? In ATL or MSP? If it's the latter, then that's good news. Everything I saw mentioned only that they could *apply* for any job on the system via eBid. I don't think anyone is claiming to be "too good" for ACS- least of all me. In fact, I'm willing to bet that damn near all of 'em would move over straight away if it meant not having to move/early out/take the layoff.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-03-01 07:36:48 and read 5194 times.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 29):
MSP. And that was more of a tongue in cheeeck comment my bad. Reasoning too was that if I'm not mistaken stores guys start out at a higher rate than the ramp/gate but the top out isn't as high so it should be a no brainer really.

We (when I worked the ramp) use to complain about staffing issues all the time but then DL would majically pull ppositions out of their you know what when it came time for possible lay-offs. Right now, they are looking for about 50 new ALA positions and some amount of new PSA positions and that is a closed bid just for MSP ACS. Once that is complete, they were suppose to hire some more RRs and upgrade some of they ones they have already to benefited positions as well as offer xfer opportunities intoo the station. They will basically offer those benefited positions that would have went to the current RRs to the clerks. At least that's how it was explained to me. It does go against the seniority policy (sort of) because the benefited positions would have went on e-bid and anyone across the system could bid in if they could hold it but because its to stave off layoffs.

So yes, I guess what you said about them only being able to apply for what's on e-bid is about correct. MSP ACC Operations and Gate will magically appear here shortly because of the above mentioned moves and they will have priority.

I will also say this. Delta taking over DCI ACS in 2007 in Atlanta had nothing to do with "performance issues" like some like to say on here on the part of EV. It had everything to do with needing the new positions for emplloyees out of CVG. In fact, not too long after, DL took over in CVG as well for the same reason because many did not want to move. You didn't hear it from me but it has been stated at more than one town hall meeting in MSP that the possibility of DL taking over A & B in the future has been looked at already. I don't see it happening soon but trust if more "layoffs" are announced it will happen to fill the need to avoid it at all possible.

[Edited 2012-03-01 07:56:34]

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: msp747
Posted 2012-03-01 07:50:42 and read 5096 times.

Which building is this? Is it the one that is all by itself near the entrance to the airport? If it is, isn't this hangar supposed to be torn down when they do the new international terminal that is in the master plan? (i know, I know, it's "if" they build it)

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-03-01 09:21:41 and read 4637 times.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 29):
Seriously, my definition would be any scale employee that works at an ATO.

Would that include managers? Not quite sure what a scale employee is.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: nwaesc
Posted 2012-03-01 10:19:04 and read 4347 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 30):
And that was more of a tongue in cheeeck comment my bad.

tongue in cheek or not, I think that would be the best result all around.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 30):
You didn't hear it from me but it has been stated at more than one town hall meeting in MSP that the possibility of DL taking over A & B in the future has been looked at already.

We've been hearing that too... Same with DTW, for that matter...

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 32):
Would that include managers? Not quite sure what a scale employee is.

Paid hourly, as opposed to salaried. FWIW, "scale" is the term DL uses.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: DCA-ROCguy
Posted 2012-03-01 10:22:04 and read 4319 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 13):
Consumers, communities, and employees ultimately benefit from having financially viable airlines that can afford to pay their bills and invest in making existing service more viable with new aircraft and other infrastructure.

History suggests that legacy carriers in particular aren't to be uncritically trusted when they say that mergers are necessary to be "financially viable and pay their bills." In addition, as far as "ovecrcapacity" goes (and I am not convinced capacity is the issue, there are many other factors), existing carriers can cut capacity.

When one carrier is on the verge of shutdown--like TWA was in 2001--*that*'s when we know a carrier really isn't financially viable, and so a buyout or merger is justified by cost issues. And it's fair to say that TWA employees and St. Louis got a better deal being bought by AA and gradually drawn down over a few years, rather than all being shut down at once.

Communities, consumers, and employees benefit from competition that ensures striving for the most efficient use of resources, keeps as many people actually employed as possible, and reduces opportunities for fare-gouging.

Minnesota officials were wise to keep a *very* close eye on DL-NW.

Jim

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2012-03-01 11:42:15 and read 3927 times.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 31):
Which building is this? Is it the one that is all by itself near the entrance to the airport? If it is, isn't this hangar supposed to be torn down when they do the new international terminal that is in the master plan? (i know, I know, it's "if" they build it)

I think your missing the quoted text that would help answer the question.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-03-01 12:23:22 and read 3841 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 32):


Anyone that earns an hourly wage although DL figures this into a monthly flat rate for all depending on how many years you have. You get a raise every X regardless of "performance" whereas Merit empoyees is just that. They receive raises based on a combination of performance and time with the company/position.

Id argue that you're more safe as a scale employee vs merit. They can and will let you go at will because your an at-will enployee as they like to call it. Remember those 200 or so "administrative" employees that were given their walking papers last year or asked to step down into a scale position? If you're a station manager and you're not cutting the mustard you will be asked to retire/resign or step down.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: nwaesc
Posted 2012-03-01 13:52:14 and read 3753 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 36):
They can and will let you go at will because your an at-will enployee as they like to call it.

I get your point, but except for the pilots & dispatchers, we're *all* at-will employees now...

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: sxf24
Posted 2012-03-01 14:23:30 and read 3695 times.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 34):
History suggests that legacy carriers in particular aren't to be uncritically trusted when they say that mergers are necessary to be "financially viable and pay their bills." In addition, as far as "ovecrcapacity" goes (and I am not convinced capacity is the issue, there are many other factors), existing carriers can cut capacity.

When one carrier is on the verge of shutdown--like TWA was in 2001--*that*'s when we know a carrier really isn't financially viable, and so a buyout or merger is justified by cost issues. And it's fair to say that TWA employees and St. Louis got a better deal being bought by AA and gradually drawn down over a few years, rather than all being shut down at once.

Communities, consumers, and employees benefit from competition that ensures striving for the most efficient use of resources, keeps as many people actually employed as possible, and reduces opportunities for fare-gouging.

If there's not overcapacity in the industry, why has it taken several rounds of mergers, and sharp reductions in domestic capacity, to get fares to a level where airlines are making money? The fact is the more competitors you have, the more irrational the competition is. While consumers might feel that reduced competition results in gouging, the simple fact is that if certain markets were so lucrative, there would be more competition.

While communities and employees might benefit in the short-term from intense competition, bankruptcies and shutdowns hurt everyone and can undue the benefit of years of low fares very quickly.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: DCA-ROCguy
Posted 2012-03-01 15:24:07 and read 3610 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 38):
If there's not overcapacity in the industry, why has it taken several rounds of mergers, and sharp reductions in domestic capacity, to get fares to a level where airlines are making money? The fact is the more competitors you have, the more irrational the competition is. While consumers might feel that reduced competition results in gouging, the simple fact is that if certain markets were so lucrative, there would be more competition.

Bad management. It's up to managements to right-size capacity and markets. The fact is, free people make free choices. Competition does not lead inexorably to "irrational competition."

Nobody here is against profits. We are against oligopoly or monopoly-type behaviors.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 38):
While communities and employees might benefit in the short-term from intense competition, bankruptcies and shutdowns hurt everyone and can undue the benefit of years of low fares very quickly.

Again, bad management. Management sets fares and judges capacity. Nobody here says airlines should be charging $39 fares all the time. Nobody here says airlines shouldn't be profitable. But when they consolidate, they abuse that power, as during the 1990's. The only mergers / acquisitions that should be allowed are a) "horizontal" where there is minimal service overlap, or b) imminent shutdown risk, a la the HP-US transaction or AA-TW.

Jim

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: sxf24
Posted 2012-03-01 16:06:47 and read 3565 times.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 39):
Again, bad management. Management sets fares and judges capacity. Nobody here says airlines should be charging $39 fares all the time. Nobody here says airlines shouldn't be profitable. But when they consolidate, they abuse that power, as during the 1990's. The only mergers / acquisitions that should be allowed are a) "horizontal" where there is minimal service overlap, or b) imminent shutdown risk, a la the HP-US transaction or AA-TW.

How has power been abused? If airline's are gouging or taking advantage of consumers, why aren't they more profitable?

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: DCA-ROCguy
Posted 2012-03-01 18:50:29 and read 3399 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 40):
How has power been abused? If airline's are gouging or taking advantage of consumers, why aren't they more profitable?

In the 90's, they were. In places they can get away with it, they still do. Unfortunately, in the past few years, oil has run ahead of their ability to reduce CASM.

Jim

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: peanuts
Posted 2012-03-01 18:59:52 and read 3375 times.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 39):
Competition does not lead inexorably to "irrational competition."

Well, you are treading on very thin ice here with some of your statements.

Obviously, many factors are at play here.

Let me just mention a simple one: Neeleman starts an airline, gets an awesome deal on brand spanking new airplanes, no maintenance costs yet, gets to hire new people at the lowest possible wages without any seniority/merit factored in because there is none.
Now he starts flying against the competition that is heavily committed to their capital, including employees.

Is this fair? Sure it is. I'm very happy for B6.

I just hope that you realize it's not as simple as you stated, with regards to "competition".

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: aa777lvr
Posted 2012-03-01 20:10:11 and read 3285 times.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 22):
As for the stock clerks losing their jobs, they have 4 choices:

*Move to ATL
*Apply for an open position on the system (maybe MSP, maybe not)
*Take the severance/early out
*Take the layoff

NWAESC-

Another possibility is the company creating 66 "ops" positions where they can plop them behind company computers, arm them with internet firewall passwords and monitor the likes of websites like airliners.net and Facebook. This way they can use company time and resources to post jabs at their employer on public forums and perpetuate the bitterness of some PMNW employees towards the merger. NWAESC, I'm sure you wouldn't know the first thing about this kind of arrangement.

-AA777LVR

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-03-01 20:19:16 and read 3278 times.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 21):
I find it curious that DL (and NW before them) has been able to keep hubs at both MSP and DTW, given their proximity.

MSP and DTW are about as far apart as DTW and ATL (and IAD and ORD, and CLT and PHL). What do you mean?

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: nwaesc
Posted 2012-03-02 04:34:19 and read 3083 times.

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 43):


Cute.

The post you quoted wasn't a "jab," and the desk it was written on happens to be my kitchen table. I haven't been to work in awhile, but you wouldn't know anything about that, would you?


Anyway, I think the "family" can do better by these guys, and I hope they do.

[Edited 2012-03-02 04:38:06]

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: DCA-ROCguy
Posted 2012-03-02 06:16:54 and read 3031 times.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 42):
I just hope that you realize it's not as simple as you stated, with regards to "competition".

The statement you quoted is not 'simplistic.' Competition indeed does not inexorably lead to 'irrational' competition, which presumably is the idea that no one can make money. Not every competitive situation--that being more than one option to get between two points--leads to a lack of profits. Monopoly is not necesary for profitability.

What might be simplistic, however, would be to suggest that JetBlue's profitability has only to do with factors related to their youth and lack of 'legacy' status. Their product, productivity, and culture all have something to do with it too.

Jim

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2012-03-02 22:24:14 and read 2785 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44):

Sorry, I think I mixed up the position of Minnesota and Wisconsin.   

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2012-03-03 07:53:52 and read 2638 times.

Quoting BD338 (Reply 9):
It might be more efficient on the accountants spreadsheet but I wonder how the risk managers looked at this from 'all eggs in one basket' angle.

I've often wondered this too. With ATL becoming more and more the center of the DL universe (I know it has always been to some degree) God forbid a tornado takes out the ATL airport and a hundred aircraft! That could really cripple the airline.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 22):
As for the stock clerks losing their jobs, they have 4 choices:

*Move to ATL
*Apply for an open position on the system (maybe MSP, maybe not)
*Take the severance/early out
*Take the layoff


So much for "no frontline jobs lost as a result of the merger."  

I'm not understanding this statement. If these people can keep working (albeit in a different city) then there aren't lost jobs right?

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: michman
Posted 2012-03-03 09:10:45 and read 2571 times.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 22):
So much for "no frontline jobs lost as a result of the merger."

Note that this "quote" was actually made up . Here's the real quote --
"The company also expects no involuntary furloughs of frontline employees as a result of this transaction"

Note the word "involuntary". Quite an important word to omit I would think.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: nwaesc
Posted 2012-03-03 09:29:11 and read 2538 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 48):
I'm not understanding this statement. If these people can keep working (albeit in a different city) then there aren't lost jobs right?

Depends on how you look at it. Many on here contend as you do, I disagree.

Quoting michman (Reply 49):
Note that this "quote" was actually made up . Here's the real quote --
"The company also expects no involuntary furloughs of frontline employees as a result of this transaction"

Note the word "involuntary". Quite an important word to omit I would think.

It was "made up," only that they're my words (paraphrasing), and not a cut-n-paste. "Expects" of course, is also a hell of a qualifier.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: sunking737
Posted 2012-03-03 11:46:00 and read 2433 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 48):
If these people can keep working (albeit in a different city) then there aren't lost jobs right?

Jobs are lost in the State of Minnesota. Lost Tax Revenue, means less income to the State of Minnesota. The more people working in any State means more Tax Revenue. Revenue loss in Minnesota means Revenue gain to the State of Georgia.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-03-03 12:45:20 and read 2353 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 48):
I've often wondered this too. With ATL becoming more and more the center of the DL universe (I know it has always been to some degree) God forbid a tornado takes out the ATL airport and a hundred aircraft! That could really cripple the airline.

This could happen at ay hub so what's your point exactly as it relates to DL? What if a tornado tears up EWR or IAH or MIA or DFW..

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 51):
Jobs are lost in the State of Minnesota. Lost Tax Revenue, means less income to the State of Minnesota. The more people working in any State means more Tax Revenue. Revenue loss in Minnesota means Revenue gain to the State of Georgia.

Get back to me when they start downsizing the MSP hub and laying off HUNDREDS at a time. 66 people is not going to break the bank. Don't get me wrong, i'm not jump for joy over people being displaced but your comment was just kind of funny.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2012-03-04 07:41:59 and read 2105 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 52):
This could happen at ay hub so what's your point exactly as it relates to DL? What if a tornado tears up EWR or IAH or MIA or DFW..

My point is, ATL is twice the size of DL's next largest hub. It seems like UA and AA have a little more "breathing" room as their hubs are similar in size. Believe me, I hope it never happens, I spent 15 years at DL, my partner is a DL pilot, and I have alot of friends there still. I'm just saying the thought has crossed my mind. That's all.

Topic: RE: DL Announces Closure Of MSP Stores Whse
Username: peanuts
Posted 2012-03-04 07:48:25 and read 2094 times.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 46):
The statement you quoted is not 'simplistic.'

I'm afraid, in an effort to convey your point of view, you have your words mixed up a bit. I never used the word "simplistic".
Simplistic is negatively charged. Simple is neutral and/or has positive connotations.
Sometimes the word simplistic is being used since it is a longer, more academic looking word. Some use it to make their words look more impressive.

As I stated in Post 42:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 42):
many factors are at play here

Followed by a simple example.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 46):
to suggest that JetBlue's profitability has only to do with factors related to their youth and lack of 'legacy' status.

This was never suggested.

Not even close.


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