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Topic: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: globalflyer
Posted 2012-03-15 05:12:56 and read 19870 times.

Emirates has announced a new service effective September 12th from DXB-IAD.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/emirat...aunch-washington-dc-120000601.html

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: ual777uk
Posted 2012-03-15 05:19:36 and read 19851 times.

Wow. So it is IAD. I personally thought ORD or MIA would be first but they are going head to head with UA and to a degree QR.

Interesting to see how all this plays out.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-03-15 05:22:43 and read 19796 times.

So the Oman Times was right on that one.

One down one more to go this year. ORD next?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: Chrisba777er
Posted 2012-03-15 05:23:46 and read 19791 times.

What are they using? 77W I guess?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: behramjee
Posted 2012-03-15 05:26:52 and read 19762 times.

I hope people working in Etihad Airways realize that this announcement by Emirates is purposely done due to a major goof up by Etihad as you do not announce a new long haul route such as AUH-IAD one year in advance thus giving your direct competition such as EK/TK/QR to plan what actions are required to counter the EY entry into the market in terms of frequency/capacity increase.

Emirates is now launching IAD a full 6 months before Etihad does thus giving them ample lead time to get corporate/consolidator contracts in place and take away a good chunk of the market from EY!

The EK IAD schedule is similar to its DFW service! Starting September 12th, EK 231 will leave Dubai daily at 2:20 am and arrive at Washington Dulles International Airport (IAD) at 8:50 am. EK 232 will depart Dulles at 10:55 am arriving in Dubai at 8:00 am the following day.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-03-15 05:28:33 and read 19730 times.

Quoting Chrisba777er (Reply 3):

What are they using? 77W I guess?

Yes, 77W with 8P, 42J and 304Y

EK231 DXB 02:20 IAD 08:50
EK232 IAD 10:55 DXB 08:00+1

[Edited 2012-03-15 05:28:58]

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: FSDan
Posted 2012-03-15 05:37:56 and read 19604 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 4):
I hope people working in Etihad Airways realize that this announcement by Emirates is purposely done due to a major goof up by Etihad as you do not announce a new long haul route such as AUH-IAD one year in advance thus giving your direct competition such as EK/TK/QR to plan what actions are required to counter the EY entry into the market in terms of frequency/capacity increase.

Emirates is now launching IAD a full 6 months before Etihad does thus giving them ample lead time to get corporate/consolidator contracts in place and take away a good chunk of the market from EY!

  

Quoting behramjee (Reply 4):
The EK IAD schedule is similar to its DFW service! Starting September 12th, EK 231 will leave Dubai daily at 2:20 am and arrive at Washington Dulles International Airport (IAD) at 8:50 am. EK 232 will depart Dulles at 10:55 am arriving in Dubai at 8:00 am the following day.

That gives a nice choice of times to passengers. The UA flight leaves IAD after 1800.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: gabrielz
Posted 2012-03-15 05:38:04 and read 19596 times.

This is going to be EK's Waterloo. I predict the route never makes money and is abandoned within 24 months.

DC isn't a big market, and without government business (which requires a US codeshare) it's a very very small market. UA's hub at IAD is really hard to crack because of the government business, and EK doesn't have what it takes.

Plus with the new hard product and enhanced mileage plus, I'd say EK's product advantage has shrunk substantially against an invigorated (and cash-rich) UA.

I'm guessing there will be some sweet deals on tickets for the next year though.  

-G

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: behramjee
Posted 2012-03-15 05:47:02 and read 19507 times.

Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):
This is going to be EK's Waterloo. I predict the route never makes money and is abandoned within 24 months.

DC isn't a big market, and without government business (which requires a US codeshare) it's a very very small market. UA's hub at IAD is really hard to crack because of the government business, and EK doesn't have what it takes.

Plus with the new hard product and enhanced mileage plus, I'd say EK's product advantage has shrunk substantially against an invigorated (and cash-rich) UA.

I'm guessing there will be some sweet deals on tickets for the next year though.

your above statements are not relevant to Emirates at all but rather to Etihad as EK does not need government traffic support help from IAD as they will get a lot of high yielding business traffic from Africa, DXB, Saudi Arabia, India, DAC and CMB on board their IAD service as well as a lot of VFR economy class traffic from these markets as well. IAD-Africa. This IAD schedule of EK is perfect for 2 way connections via DXB to ADD/JNB/NBO all of which high volume markets from Washington DC. Plus note that EK's flight from IAD to BGW/BSR (massive yield) is connected nicely with a short transit in DXB!

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: tayser
Posted 2012-03-15 05:49:27 and read 19491 times.

Where are they likely to get transit pax through to? India? Africa? Surely flying westward from IAD to East Asia (where most US carriers already have a decent route network) is preferable to via DXB?

I suppose the EK phenomenon is relatively "new" to the US and it might sucker-punch a few people flying to East Asia via DXB.

anyhow, carry on   

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: something
Posted 2012-03-15 06:01:51 and read 19287 times.

I don't know what type of deals and contracts EY has already worked out with IAD businesses and partners, but if they alone can't pay for most of the flight, they might as well nip this inevitable economic failure in the bud and withdraw from IAD before ever commencing operations there.

I wouldn't mind seeing them redeploy the gorgeous A345 to AUH-MEX, or something creative like AUH-MAO-LIM. Alas, this is not going to happen.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-03-15 06:24:30 and read 18952 times.

So who is next ? Miami, Chicago or Boston ?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: rogercamel
Posted 2012-03-15 06:37:10 and read 18817 times.

Quoting tayser (Reply 9):
Where are they likely to get transit pax through to? India? Africa? Surely flying westward from IAD to East Asia (where most US carriers already have a decent route network) is preferable to via DXB?

Africa primarily. EK has a pretty extensive network to Africa (from memory about 20 destinations, though I could be well wrong)

Flying to East Asia it is generally better to go west, unless you are heading down to SE Asia (e.g. SIN KUL CGK etc) when it becomes almost equal in terms of flight time.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-15 07:01:09 and read 18577 times.

Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):
DC isn't a big market, and without government business (which requires a US codeshare) it's a very very small market. UA's hub at IAD is really hard to crack because of the government business, and EK doesn't have what it takes

This is unfair. QR does well here, AF does GREAT here, ditto for BA, LH, etc. It's a large, wealthy market with extensive global contacts. More importantly, Emirates had to arrive here sooner or later for various prestige reasons.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: behramjee
Posted 2012-03-15 07:02:18 and read 18550 times.

Where EK will succeed in IAD is getting Africa and India bound traffic versus EY who cannot capture this type of traffic because their flights do not connect via AUH to NBO/JNB and they use A320s to India so huge capacity bottleneck situation.

IAD-Africa is huge volume i.e. IAD-ADD alone is bigger than IAD-PAK + IAD-CMB + IAD-DAC combined together. Plus also note that with the SPA with Fly Dubai, EK will capture a lot of traffic bound to Central Asia and Kabul on board its flights.

Africa-IAD market size in 2011 was:

ADD 60,000
JNB 40,000
NBO 40,000
CAI 30,000
LOS 20,000
CPT 15,000
KRT 10,000
DAR 10,000

Also note in 2011, 60,000 pax flew DXB-IAD-DXB alone so with EK nonstop service there shall be market stimulation for sure.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-03-15 07:31:21 and read 18272 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 8):
This IAD schedule of EK is perfect for 2 way connections via DXB to ADD/JNB/NBO all of which high volume markets from Washington DC. Plus note that EK's flight from IAD to BGW/BSR (massive yield) is connected nicely with a short transit in DXB!

These are already better served by TK, ET, among others. EK will be competing with them.

Quoting rogercamel (Reply 12):
Africa primarily. EK has a pretty extensive network to Africa (from memory about 20 destinations, though I could be well wrong)
Quoting behramjee (Reply 14):
Africa-IAD market size in 2011 was:

Why would the WAS market go out if its way to get to Africa when there are already plenty of more competitive options?

Quoting behramjee (Reply 14):
IAD-ADD alone is bigger than

It has an ET nonstop that isn't even full  

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: flyyul
Posted 2012-03-15 07:34:28 and read 18232 times.

so I guess Qatar is going to suffer big-time on IAD-DOH

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: hhslax2
Posted 2012-03-15 07:35:49 and read 18239 times.

Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):

Don't forget that the average American does not fit in the 10 abreast Y seats. I'm 5'9" about 175 and I don't fit in them.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2012-03-15 08:09:00 and read 17723 times.

Rather than arguing on schedules/market catchment alone - never forget EK's marketing prowess!

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: ual777uk
Posted 2012-03-15 08:11:24 and read 17690 times.

Quoting hhslax2 (Reply 17):
Don't forget that the average American does not fit in the 10 abreast Y seats. I'm 5'9" about 175 and I don't fit in them.

If UA felt the need they ccould market that to ther advantage..........maybe?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: behramjee
Posted 2012-03-15 08:17:20 and read 17579 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 16):
so I guess Qatar is going to suffer big-time on IAD-DOH

no QR wont suffer "big time" with EK entering because QR has UA's feeder support at IAD which EK does not and that is massive. Plus EKs IAD flights do not connect ISB/KTM and LHE in either direction so that will help QR quite a bit along with its extensive Iran network.

QR already has a well established presence at IAD and wont be hurt as much as EY shall be as AA lacks adequate feed at IAD with the planned schedule of EY.

EY is better off using the A345 to DFW compared to IAD!

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2012-03-15 08:26:22 and read 17378 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 4):

I hope people working in Etihad Airways realize that this announcement by Emirates is purposely done due to a major goof up by Etihad as you do not announce a new long haul route such as AUH-IAD one year in advance thus giving your direct competition such as EK/TK/QR to plan what actions are required to counter the EY entry into the market in terms of frequency/capacity increase.

I really don't know why EY did that and I think they'd be the big loser in this market.

Emirates is now launching IAD a full 6 months before Etihad does thus giving them ample lead time to get corporate/consolidator contracts in place and take away a good chunk of the market from EY!

The EK IAD schedule is similar to its DFW service! Starting September 12th, EK 231 will leave Dubai daily at 2:20 am and arrive at Washington Dulles International Airport (IAD) at 8:50 am. EK 232 will depart Dulles at 10:55 am arriving in Dubai at 8:00 am the following day.

That's great. Let's hope for some cheap fares. Someone definitely needs to start a long haul from ORD. Royal Jordianian was there but there are a lot of Indians descendants in the Chicago area that I am sure fly eastward once a year.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2012-03-15 08:38:23 and read 17181 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 11):
So who is next ? Miami, Chicago or Boston ?
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 21):
Someone definitely needs to start a long haul from ORD

I am pretty sure that EK will also announce ORD for 2012. It may even start before IAD. The sudden IAD announcement was provoked by EY's reckless announcement of AUH IAD. ORD had been planned to be launched first at EK, and it will likely still happen. I also predict that MIA and BOS will follow in 2013.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 20):
QR already has a well established presence at IAD

IAD is arguably QR's best performing North American route and it had been earmarked for A380 deployment. The arrival of both EK and EY at IAD may change plans in that regard, but QR will likely continue to do well at IAD.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-15 08:40:38 and read 17151 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 22):
IAD is arguably QR's best performing North American route and it had been earmarked for A380 deployment.

Indeed. I've seen passengers flying United IAD-JFK to connect to QR at JFK (to then go on to India via Doha). I could only imagine they were booked like this because QR's IAD-Doha flight was full...

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: IADLHR
Posted 2012-03-15 08:46:31 and read 17044 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 22):
IAD is arguably QR's best performing North American route and it had been earmarked for A380 deployment. The arrival of both EK and EY at IAD may change plans in that regard, but QR will likely continue to do well at IAD.

That is really interesting. If memory serves me correctly, didnt IAD-DOH start out a very, very weak performer?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: chopchop767
Posted 2012-03-15 09:08:42 and read 17308 times.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 18):
Rather than arguing on schedules/market catchment alone - never forget EK's marketing prowess!

Especially, out of IAD, UA surely benefits from the Fly American Act. Now, obviously, not all, not even a majority of traffic out of IAD is Gov't travel, but this helps UA to the Middle East. I just noticed in Hemispheres on the flight from MUC to IAD earlier in the week, that UA is planning on adding Doha as an add on to Dubai. Surely, the Gov't's travel requirements to Doha are at least partially responsible for this. So, while Emirates has marketing, UA has a captive market.

That said, I hope UA is deploying the refurbished interiors on these routes. Just flew J from MUC to IAD and those seats are really showing their age. Maybe Emirates will make UA move a little faster with the upgrades; not holding my breath though.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: globalflyer
Posted 2012-03-15 09:21:35 and read 17087 times.

Interesting as EK have been to ATL to recruit for pilots. Could be just a road trip across the USA? ATL would break DL's monopoly and I hear it is one of their most profitable routes.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-03-15 09:36:30 and read 17111 times.

Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):
DC isn't a big market, and without government business (which requires a US codeshare) it's a very very small market. UA's hub at IAD is really hard to crack because of the government business, and EK doesn't have what it takes.

That is the US Government Business, what about the business of the government of teh UAE ? Emirates will carry that traffic. With all the expanding commercial ties and investment in the USA by the UAE EK will be fine with no US government traffic.

The connecting traffic to India and Africa will fill the economy cabin. EK has its formula down and it works all over the USA why would Dulles be so different ?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-03-15 09:40:31 and read 16982 times.

Quoting globalflyer (Reply 26):
Interesting as EK have been to ATL to recruit for pilots. Could be just a road trip across the USA? ATL would break DL's monopoly and I hear it is one of their most profitable routes.

I doubt both carries could co-exist on that route.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-03-15 09:55:48 and read 16786 times.

In the interests of reducing speculation, Emirates regularly conduct seminars and recruitment drives in various cities around the world. This does not indicate an immediate interest in opening up a route.

If EK wishes to recruit pilots, it makes sense to have recruitment sessions in cities where large numbers of pilots work. This means that the likely numbers attending will be greater but it does not mean that the particular location is going to be next on the list of new routes.

The same applies for cabin crew. EK is a global carrier in the sense that it connects people in many countries who speak different languages so they recruit globally. Sometimes the list of languages spoken on a particular flight can run to fifteen or twenty.

In the next financial year, EK intends to recruit some 450 pilots, 4,500 cabin crew and 50+ additional support staff. Starting by advertising where there is a large number of pilots makes sense.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: ASA
Posted 2012-03-15 10:04:41 and read 16626 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 2):
So the Oman Times was right on that one.

Indeed! All the speculation in the last thread finally gave this! I remember one poster in the last thread mentioned that EK had employment positions open for IAD - which was a good sign (in retrospect) 


Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):
This is going to be EK's Waterloo. I predict the route never makes money and is abandoned within 24 months.

Just throwing out a curve ball ... is it possible that it is actually SEA that will be axed? If the poor bookings continue, maybe they'll just stop that station and divert the metal to the IAD service?

  

Quoting rogercamel (Reply 12):
Africa primarily. EK has a pretty extensive network to Africa (from memory about 20 destinations, though I could be well wrong)

TK has an extensive Africa network too. Especially, with the customized 739 ERs being delivered as we speak, they are opening up a lot of new stations with higher frequencies. So, QR/EK/TK will flight it out in IAD ... too late, EY!

Quoting behramjee (Reply 20):
EY is better off using the A345 to DFW compared to IAD!

  

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: klwright69
Posted 2012-03-15 10:10:07 and read 16562 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 27):
Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):
DC isn't a big market, and without government business (which requires a US codeshare) it's a very very small market. UA's hub at IAD is really hard to crack because of the government business, and EK doesn't have what it takes.

That is the US Government Business, what about the business of the government of teh UAE ? Emirates will carry that traffic. With all the expanding commercial ties and investment in the USA by the UAE EK will be fine with no US government traffic.

Actually, the capital of the UAE is Abu Dhabi, not Dubai. The US embassy in AUH is only about a 20 minute drive from AUH airport also.

[Edited 2012-03-15 10:21:07]

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: mcogator
Posted 2012-03-15 10:12:57 and read 16503 times.

Quoting hhslax2 (Reply 17):

Don't forget that the average American does not fit in the 10 abreast Y seats. I'm 5'9" about 175 and I don't fit in them.

That's odd. I'm 6'5 245lbs and I fit in them. It's not terribly comfortable, but I fit.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-03-15 10:13:46 and read 16514 times.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 31):
Actually, the capital of the USA is Abu Dhabi

You may want to tell Obama that. Clearly you meant UAE.  

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: CO787EWR
Posted 2012-03-15 10:17:00 and read 16393 times.

Quoting ASA (Reply 30):
TK has an extensive Africa network too. Especially, with the customized 739 ERs being delivered as we speak, they are opening up a lot of new stations with higher frequencies. So, QR/EK/TK will flight it out in IAD ... too late, EY!

What is custom about them?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: C680
Posted 2012-03-15 10:19:38 and read 16386 times.

Quoting globalflyer (Thread starter):
Emirates has announced a new service effective September 12th from DXB-IAD.

Falling on Sword: I said this was the last place they would start service based upon UA 2x, EY, SV, QR, SA, ET service to the Mid East / Africa from IAD.

I was WRONG.

EK is the Borg of airlines.

[Edited 2012-03-15 10:21:37]

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-03-15 10:23:47 and read 16338 times.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 31):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 27):
Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):
DC isn't a big market, and without government business (which requires a US codeshare) it's a very very small market. UA's hub at IAD is really hard to crack because of the government business, and EK doesn't have what it takes.

That is the US Government Business, what about the business of the government of teh UAE ? Emirates will carry that traffic. With all the expanding commercial ties and investment in the USA by the UAE EK will be fine with no US government traffic.

Actually, the capital of the UAE is Abu Dhabi, not Dubai. The US embassy in AUH is only about a 20 minute drive from AUH airport also.

DXB is only 72mi away from AUH ... it's not LGA/JFK close, but it's a reasonable alternative airport even for pax bound for Abu Dhabi. Just about the same distance as using Buffalo instead of Toronto.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: klwright69
Posted 2012-03-15 10:30:19 and read 16185 times.

Quoting C680 (Reply 35):
Quoting globalflyer (Thread starter):
Emirates has announced a new service effective September 12th from DXB-IAD.

Falling on Sword: I said this was the last place they would start service based upon SA)">UA 2x, EY, SV, QR, SA, ET service to the Mid East / Africa from IAD.

I was WRONG.

Exactly... They don't care about the competition. They are a monstrosity in their own right.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAV88
Posted 2012-03-15 10:39:56 and read 16082 times.

Which airline and/or routes do you think will ultimately fail on IAD-Middle East? It seems like a ton of lift to have daily IAD-DXB on EK, daily IAD-DOH on QR, daily IAD-AUH on EY, plus IAD-DXB, IAD-DOH, IAD-BAH and IAD-KWI on UA.

I am hoping Miami is their next destination.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: chopchop767
Posted 2012-03-15 11:23:39 and read 15564 times.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 38):
Which airline and/or routes do you think will ultimately fail on IAD-Middle East?

I don't think any of these will necessarily fail. I just went through Dulles customs on Tuesday and noticed that there were two huge tour groups who, from the looks of it, had visited Israel, Jordan and Turkey. They had cabin luggage tags for QR and TK and they were all connecting from Dulles to other cities in Virginia and Tennessee. I suspect the same is true for UA's Middle East routes, although this was the afternoon, so I didn't see their connecting pax. From the looks of it, the tourist markets from the South Eastern USA, is easily fed through Dulles. Could have just been that single day, but I suspect there are many tour operators utilizing these flights.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: something
Posted 2012-03-15 11:40:32 and read 15300 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 27):
That is the US Government Business, what about the business of the government of teh UAE ? Emirates will carry that traffic. With all the expanding commercial ties and investment in the USA by the UAE EK will be fine with no US government traffic.

But how much UAE gov't traffic is there really? I am to this day flabbergasted as to how the USA has not yet gone bankrupt yet. They let everybody fly at their expense. Every diplomat or embassy or honorary consulate employee with all of their employees; every contracted industry (ie, every Northrop employee when travelling on business) etc. Plus obviously all of the army personnel which outnumbers that of the UAE by quite a bit.

Quoting ASA (Reply 30):
TK has an extensive Africa network too. Especially, with the customized 739 ERs being delivered as we speak

And IST is arguably a much bigger destination airport, than Dubai. An A332 also has less seats to fill than a 772LR. Besides, TK offers much more connections than EK especially to secondary or tertiary markets and if the price is right, people will even fly them to Europe and backtrack to Greece, Italy etc.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-03-15 11:54:49 and read 15100 times.

Quoting chopchop767 (Reply 39):
had visited Israel, Jordan and Turkey.

If passengers are doing what might be described as a "holy lands tour", options via DXB are probably not that attractive from the US due to the need to back track, unless a particular itinerary offers a time advantage. I strongly doubt that they would be looking towards TLV bound clients given that they don't serve Israel and there is the little tiff that occurred following Israeli agents travelling on forged documents and committing a murder in DXB. From the eastern half of the US, EK is possibly looking towards GCC countries, Africa and the sub continent.

Quoting something (Reply 40):
They let everybody fly at their expense.

But not always on US metal. Sometimes there is a need to fly beyond destinations offered by US carriers. Did I mention how I came upon Buzz Aldrin in the lounge at DXB? Why was he there? Because it was the best way for him and other people to visit troops on the ground in various battle zones.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: something
Posted 2012-03-15 12:02:33 and read 14987 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 41):
Quoting something (Reply 40):
They let everybody fly at their expense.

But not always on US metal.

No, there is a lot of cooperating airlines and airlines they are not allowed to fly on (like Azerbaijan Airlines for instance). But I would assume that if both, UA and EK are flying IAD-DXB, UA will get the US gov't business which is much larger in size than the UAE gov't business EK will get.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: klwright69
Posted 2012-03-15 12:14:27 and read 14850 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 36):

DXB is only 72mi away from AUH ... it's not LGA/JFK close, but it's a reasonable alternative airport even for pax bound for Abu Dhabi. Just about the same distance as using Buffalo instead of Toronto.

Of course...But given that there will be nonstops to AUH from IAD, AUH is more convenient than DXB no matter how you slice it when we are talking about the US embassy in AUH. One drives right past AUH airport on the way to Dubai.

I doubt EY will back out of the IAD route once it gets going, there are in it for the long haul. There is plenty of traffic over the long term.

I don't know why some insist DEN is on any kind of a short list for EK. The simple answer to that one is, "NO."

I do not believe EK's timing had any influence from EY's move on this market. I think both carriers had IAD in the pipeline.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: ASA
Posted 2012-03-15 12:15:11 and read 14844 times.

Quoting CO787EWR (Reply 34):

Quoting ASA (Reply 30):
TK has an extensive Africa network too. Especially, with the customized 739 ERs being delivered as we speak, they are opening up a lot of new stations with higher frequencies. So, QR/EK/TK will flight it out in IAD ... too late, EY!

What is custom about them?

Sorry, wrong choice of words. I didn't mean a Boeing custom job on the aircraft mechanics ... just 'customized' for their high-frequency and business class oriented operation (layout 16J 135Y).

Quoting something (Reply 40):
And IST is arguably a much bigger destination airport, than Dubai. An A332 also has less seats to fill than a 772LR. Besides, TK offers much more connections than EK especially to secondary or tertiary markets and if the price is right, people will even fly them to Europe and backtrack to Greece, Italy etc.

Certainly. TK's extensive operations throughout Africa, Balkans, Central Asia, Levant, and Eastern Europe should generate enough feed for its IAD operation. In additon, the local IST market is always there. I won't be surprised if they upgrade it to a 77W in the future.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: contrails67
Posted 2012-03-15 13:25:30 and read 14080 times.

I'm glad that EK has arrived at IAD and am looking forward to EY as well since my only experience traveling from IAD has been on QR. Taking into account the departure and arrivals to DXB as well as my connecting flights' departure and arrival as well, it will be at least a 12 hour wait in DXB. Does anyone know whether EK provides free hotel accomodations for connecting passengers with a waiting duration of this length? How about EY?


thanks,
Contrails67

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-03-15 13:40:31 and read 13899 times.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 38):
IAD-BAH and IAD-KWI on UA.

These operate as a consolidated flight: IAD-KWI-BAH.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: aviationbuff08
Posted 2012-03-15 14:02:13 and read 13736 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 28):
Quoting globalflyer (Reply 26):
Interesting as EK have been to ATL to recruit for pilots. Could be just a road trip across the USA? ATL would break DL's monopoly and I hear it is one of their most profitable routes.

I doubt both carries could co-exist on that route.

Well I say let EK work on expanding their USA market share in IAD, ORD, MIA, SEA, IAH and leave DL's route DXB alone.

I have wondered to myself how DL's DXB route will perform once the US military is withdrawn from Afganistan in the coming years. Would there still be enough traffic of private contractors with the oil & other industries going to the middle east region at that time.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2012-03-15 14:03:59 and read 13725 times.

Quoting ASA (Reply 30):
Just throwing out a curve ball ... is it possible that it is actually SEA that will be axed? If the poor bookings continue, maybe they'll just stop that station and divert the metal to the IAD service?

SEA loads are poor?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: ASA
Posted 2012-03-15 14:14:20 and read 13608 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 48):
SEA loads are poor?

Don't shoot the messenger ...    ... that's the gist I got from this thread and the previous.

Can anyone share some details? Thanks!

[Edited 2012-03-15 14:26:24]

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-15 14:31:15 and read 13435 times.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 38):
Which airline and/or routes do you think will ultimately fail on IAD-Middle East? It seems like a ton of lift to have daily IAD-DXB on EK, daily IAD-DOH on QR, daily IAD-AUH on EY, plus IAD-DXB, IAD-DOH, IAD-BAH and IAD-KWI on UA.

UA operates IAD-DXB-DOH, and IAD-KWI-BAH. I think there is room for everybody.

Quoting something (Reply 40):
Every diplomat or embassy or honorary consulate employee with all of their employees

It might seem like a lot, but it's a small fraction of the overall number of travelers. People love to talk about how international flights from DC are profitable because of government traffic but this is a bit like saying flights to NYC are profitable because of the financial industry there. Flights are profitable for a huge variety of reasons, not one reason. If you believed the A.net hype, you would think that every flight to DCA/IAD is packed with government employees flying on business. It is not the case. The fact of the matter is that the DC region is a very wealthy, highly-educated, fast growing area with an assortment of industries. This is why Emirates flight will be profitable.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: swedenflyer
Posted 2012-03-15 14:42:18 and read 13287 times.

I'm looking forward to this route! However, my parents probably can't afford the cheapest economy class seat.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-03-15 14:50:51 and read 13143 times.

Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):
This is going to be EK's Waterloo

You think this one route is going to make EK go under? You do realize Waterloo wasnt a set back for Napolean, Waterloo was the end of the road for Napolean.

Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):
DC isn't a big market

Very wrong again. DC-Middle East is the 2nd largest US-Middle East market after NYC.

Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):
I'd say EK's product advantage has shrunk substantially against an invigorated (and cash-rich) UA.

EK is not worried about UA. Not a chance.

[Edited 2012-03-15 14:55:33]

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: kq747
Posted 2012-03-15 16:35:57 and read 12236 times.

I wholly agree with LAXdude1023. I cant think of a day when I would pick UA over EK and I think there are a lot of people out there who would given the choice do the same. The 10 abreast seating while not the best is made up for in pitch which matters more to me.(Please dont start EK bashing but) Plus the food, IFE, friendly service from a multinational crew, the like of which i will ever experience on any american carrier let alone UA. There are days when I forget that UA even flies to the middle east because my mind straight away goes to QR, EK, EY. We all knew it was just a matter of time before EK became really aggressive with their US route expansion and I wouldnt be surprised if they announced ORD or MIA before the year is out.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-03-15 16:37:48 and read 12226 times.

Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):
DC isn't a big market, and without government business (which requires a US codeshare) it's a very very small market. UA's hub at IAD is really hard to crack because of the government business, and EK doesn't have what it takes.

That's pointless to EK. Do you think they got to where they are today by selling discounted tickets to government officials?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
Why would the WAS market go out if its way to get to Africa when there are already plenty of more competitive options?

Lower fares and better service? Why do thousands of people travel from Europe to East Asia or Africa via DXB? It's not exactly on the way.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
It has an ET nonstop that isn't even full

It's not non-stop, it has a stop in FCO, and it's more expensive than the competition. See my response above.
If you can't offer a better option and you charge more money, you're not going to get a lot of people to fly with you.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: yeogeo
Posted 2012-03-15 16:49:29 and read 12140 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
It has an ET nonstop that isn't even full
Quoting airbazar (Reply 54):
It's not non-stop, it has a stop in FCO

You're both half-right:

6251nm IADº-ADDº ‡ Ethiopian ˇ 77Lx4[5]
‡ 6251nm ET operates nonstop eastbound only. Westbound: (ET 500) ADD-FCO-IAD

World's Longest Flights 15 March Update (by yeogeo Feb 26 2012 in Aviation Polls)

yeo

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2012-03-15 17:31:45 and read 11840 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 52):
Very wrong again. DC-Middle East is the 2nd largest US-Middle East market after NYC.

While I'm not disputing this fact, it seems my hometown of Detroit would have had EK service by now. According to the Arab-American Institute, Michigan is just behind California with the most Arabs; plus they are mostly well-traveled, I know many of them who travel home yearly. (I have three cousins that married men from Abu Dhabi & Lebanon). I wonder if it's because so many are Iraqi (where it's difficult to get to) or Palestinian and Lebanese (which would be back-tracking)?

Top ten states by Arab American Population:
1. California - 272,485

2. Michigan - 191,607

3. New York - 149,627

4. Florida - 100,627

5. Texas - 91,568

6. New Jersey - 85,956

7. Illinois - 85,465

8. Ohio - 65,813

9. Massachusetts - 65,150

10. Pennsylvania - 60,870

http://www.aaiusa.org/pages/demographics/

[Edited 2012-03-15 17:34:13]

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: wedgetail737
Posted 2012-03-15 17:40:16 and read 11790 times.

Quoting ASA (Reply 30):
Just throwing out a curve ball ... is it possible that it is actually SEA that will be axed? If the poor bookings continue, maybe they'll just stop that station and divert the metal to the IAD service?

EK's timing into SEA is not too terribly impeccable...this time of year is really not the best time of year for Seattle tourism. But EK is not going to drop SEA after just a few weeks. I think they'll wait until after the 1st of next year to see how the loads are.

I think SEA will turn out to be a good station, but with the 77L. I think the 77W is too big right now, even though it's only a few more seats larger.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-03-15 17:43:29 and read 11761 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 54):
Do you think they got to where they are today by selling discounted tickets to government officials?

Discounted tickets to Indians 
Quoting airbazar (Reply 54):

Lower fares and better service? Why do thousands of people travel from Europe to East Asia or Africa via DXB? It's not exactly on the way.

It's less circuitous from Europe to East Africa.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 54):
It's not non-stop, it has a stop in FCO, and it's more expensive than the competition.

It's nonstop in one direction, tech stop in the other. It's more expensive because ET can take a premium for the nonstop. That said they probably will try to no't give EK an inch in the flow markets, nor let go of the local too much.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: point2point
Posted 2012-03-15 17:51:01 and read 11674 times.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 43):
I don't know why some insist DEN is on any kind of a short list for EK. The simple answer to that one is, "NO."

I didn't know anyone even mentioned DEN on this thread.

But now that it's brought up, it is, after all, the 10th busiest airport in the world.

 

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: L101fan
Posted 2012-03-15 20:05:46 and read 10927 times.

I flew QR from IAD-DOH-KTM and will return next week. The flight from IAD was almost completely full. It was a very good flight. With QR expanding their route structure and the quality of their service I would fly them again with no hesitation.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: ojas
Posted 2012-03-15 20:22:08 and read 10776 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 4):
I hope people working in Etihad Airways realize that this announcement by Emirates is purposely done due to a major goof up by Etihad as you do not announce a new long haul route such as AUH-IAD one year in advance thus giving your direct competition such as EK/TK/QR to plan what actions are required to counter the EY entry into the market in terms of frequency/capacity increase.

That's not true.

It seems someone at the top management in Etihad Airways got an inkling EK is starting IAD and just to "outsmart" EK EY made a premature announcement of IAD. The result being Etihad made a fool of themselves. Besides, it's not that just because EY announced IAD; EK woke up and did the same before. Planning of a new destination is an extensive process and it takes months before finalising.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: Pbb152
Posted 2012-03-15 20:43:00 and read 10684 times.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 57):
think SEA will turn out to be a good station, but with the 77L. I think the 77W is too big right now, even though it's only a few more seats larger.

They are already using the 77L to SEA. They only used the 77W for the first 3 days of service. The route reverted to a 77L after that.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-03-15 20:47:28 and read 10632 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 36):
DXB is only 72mi away from AUH

Distance in UAE is not measured in miles, nor km. It is measured in timetime. The first time is time of day. It will give you the second time, the time it takes at that time of the day.  

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: catiii
Posted 2012-03-15 21:26:58 and read 10458 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 28):
Quoting globalflyer (Reply 26):
Interesting as EK have been to ATL to recruit for pilots. Could be just a road trip across the USA? ATL would break DL's monopoly and I hear it is one of their most profitable routes.

I doubt both carries could co-exist on that route.

They definitely could. DL isn't carrying much O/D traffic from ATL, however they're maximizing the hub to connect traffic from all over the network through ATL to DXB. For EK, ATL would be a final destination, maximizing traffic through the DXB hub to connect traffic from all over their network to ATL. Different markets entirely.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-03-15 21:52:26 and read 10351 times.

Quoting ojas (Reply 61):
It seems someone at the top management in Etihad Airways got an inkling EK is starting IAD and just to "outsmart" EK EY made a premature announcement of IAD

I think that is very true. Even Emirates couldn't wake up one day and decide to fly a route. This has probably been in the works for a while and EY decided to steal some thunder.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-03-15 21:53:48 and read 10404 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 56):
While I'm not disputing this fact, it seems my hometown of Detroit would have had EK service by now. According to the Arab-American Institute, Michigan is just behind California with the most Arabs; plus they are mostly well-traveled, I know many of them who travel home yearly. (I have three cousins that married men from Abu Dhabi & Lebanon). I wonder if it's because so many are Iraqi (where it's difficult to get to) or Palestinian and Lebanese (which would be back-tracking)?

Two primary rasons I believe EK is missing from Detroit:

1) it involves backtracking to get to where they want to go, which is largely Amman and Beiruit.
2) The community actually does not have a high propensity to travel, especially not compared to California, where the Arab community is very wealthy and has a high propensity to travel. And for those who do travel, the yield is quite weak.

I think that DTW will see Turkish before Emirates. IST is a better hub to serve the needs of DTW-Middle East travel patterns.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: klwright69
Posted 2012-03-16 00:06:32 and read 9880 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 59):
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 43):
I don't know why some insist DEN is on any kind of a short list for EK. The simple answer to that one is, "NO."

I didn't know anyone even mentioned DEN on this thread.

But now that it's brought up, it is, after all, the 10th busiest airport in the world.

You're right, it was brought up on the other thread about a possibly new EK city. My bad. Yes, but it's a very busy airport that's not even ready for a Tokyo route either.

Anyway, the timing of the IAD flight announcement will not make much difference in the scheme of things. I think QR, EY, and EK will coexist just like they do in NYC.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 66):

Two primary rasons I believe EK is missing from Detroit:

1) it involves backtracking to get to where they want to go, which is largely Amman and Beiruit.

I agree. Plus, there needs to be more than just a local ethnic community to make a route a long-term success. And Detroit is so economically depressed, it's almost its own third world country.

[Edited 2012-03-16 00:20:08]

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: boeing773W
Posted 2012-03-16 00:13:35 and read 9868 times.

Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):
This is going to be EK's Waterloo. I predict the route never makes money and is abandoned within 24 months.

Surely there would be more traffic for IAD than SEA, so I would say if one of these destinations was EK's Waterloo, it is much more likely for it to be SEA than IAD. If QR can do well at IAD (and EY launching routes too), EK, given its marketing, route network and overall strategy, will surely make it work (perhaps even more so than QR and EY).

A significant part of QR's traffic out of IAD is UAE bound in any event rather than DOH bound. EK will automatically capture that market with a direct flight to DXB.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: behramjee
Posted 2012-03-16 00:45:18 and read 9732 times.

Quoting ojas (Reply 61):
That's not true.

It seems someone at the top management in Etihad Airways got an inkling EK is starting IAD and just to "outsmart" EK EY made a premature announcement of IAD. The result being Etihad made a fool of themselves. Besides, it's not that just because EY announced IAD; EK woke up and did the same before. Planning of a new destination is an extensive process and it takes months before finalising.

I was refering to the fact that EKs IAD launch date is 6 months before EY which is mainly done to get ahead in the IAD local market before EY even launches its inaugural service.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-03-16 02:23:52 and read 9398 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 69):
I was refering to the fact that EKs IAD launch date is 6 months before EY which is mainly done to get ahead in the IAD local market before EY even launches its inaugural service.

But what behramjee is suggesting (and what seems to be a more likely scenario) is that EK were planning to announce IAD, and then EY caught wind of it and thought that they would spoil the party.

After all, it isn't normal to give such a long lead time - especially when EK (possibly more than any other airline) has the resources and operational flexibility to react quickly. EY must have know this. However, even EK probably couldn't have managed to go from a blank piece of paper to launching the route in less than 6 months time in a matter of weeks, that's why I think that this has been in the works for longer.

That EK and EY would have ultimately both flown to IAD eventually is inevitable, but it seems somewhat more realistic that EY are the ones acting retaliatory in this situation, not EK.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: boeing773W
Posted 2012-03-16 03:03:16 and read 9250 times.

Whether EK decided to spoil EY's party, or the other way around wouldn't make a difference anyway. There are plenty of cities that both EK and EY (and in fact QR) serve and compete on. IAD will just join that list. The carriers would also face the same challenges as regards load factors as the O&D traffic between IAD and DXB, DOH & AUH respectively would be quite low I imagine. All 3 carriers are therefore targeting the connecting traffic to the Middle East, Asia and Africa and would simply need to compete on price & product. They do it with destinations such as LHR, CDG, FRA, HKG, JNB, JFK etc, so IAD won't be any different.

P.S. I would imagine that EK could serve the Moscow - Washington traffic too. People use them for Moscow - Tokyo and Hong Kong flights a lot for example so using EK for IAD should make sense too. I don't know what the demand would be like but it's an option.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: ual777uk
Posted 2012-03-16 03:18:50 and read 9215 times.

There is talk on here that SEA is to quite where EK wants it at the moment. Can i ask, has EK actually ever pulled out of a market? I dont mean downguaged the aircraft, I mean actually pulled out. I cannot think of anywhere it has but stand to be corrected.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: leftyboarder
Posted 2012-03-16 03:55:22 and read 9065 times.

Quoting boeing773W (Reply 71):
P.S. I would imagine that EK could serve the Moscow - Washington traffic too. People use them for Moscow - Tokyo and Hong Kong flights a lot for example so using EK for IAD should make sense too. I don't know what the demand would be like but it's an option.

That doubles the distance from 4900nm direct to 9300nm via Dubai. What next? London via Dubai?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-03-16 04:01:58 and read 9034 times.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 72):
has EK actually ever pulled out of a market?

I guess HAJ-JFK doesn't count since they continued to serve both cities.

The only others which come to mind are the likes of Tripoli, but for very obvious reasons.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: FAGC
Posted 2012-03-16 05:51:22 and read 8674 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 74):
Quoting ual777uk (Reply 72):has ek actually ever pulled out of a market?
I guess HAJ-JFK doesn't count since they continued to serve both cities.

The only others which come to mind are the likes of Tripoli, but for very obvious reasons.

I know they withdrew from Baku and Comoros many years ago

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: gabrielz
Posted 2012-03-16 05:51:34 and read 8698 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):

Washingtonian et al:

The issue isn't that DC is purely a government market at all - to your point it is a wealthy (albeit small) MSA with a diverse set of industries that feed the government.   the other airlines you mentioned that have successfully defended their single (seasonally double) flights to Europe all carry US airline codes on their flights. BA, AF, VS, LH, SK are all sold with their corresponding US-based carrier partner's code.

This codeshare makes them eligible for US government, contractor and supporting pax to fly them and still "fly american". Even in cases where employees are not required to fly a US carrier, if they work extensively with the government (which a majority of DC's major firms do) they will frequently comply with the policies, ad hoc.

This includes QR, which codeshares with UA. EK does not have a US codeshare.

Add in UAs frequent flyer program (and huge installed base), its feeder network, its lack of concern with cash (ditto that for QR), and the fact that the hard product is now superior in many ways to EK in C/J, and I just don't think this is going to end well for EK.

But for you guys in DC, I'm betting on excellent deals in C/J to the middle east!

-G

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAV88
Posted 2012-03-16 06:36:13 and read 8574 times.

I don't buy the argument that some are making that government related traffic to/from D.C. does not make up a large portion of the business travel. Between those directly work for the government, and those that work in industries related to the government, it has to be a massive amount. One of the biggest reasons the D.C. economy has done so well is the government.


It's interesting that some will make the case that having a large local population in a city/metro area doesn't mean direct service is necessary, yet some do.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-16 06:48:36 and read 8540 times.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 77):

I don't buy the argument that some are making that government related traffic to/from D.C. does not make up a large portion of the business travel.

It depends how you define it. A large portion of the business travel to DC probably is "government related", but it doesn't mean that it's mid-level bureaucrats flying on GSA tickets. Think representatives of private-sector companies flying to DC to meet with regulators, lobbyists, etc. That is why DC is a profitable city for most airlines...

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 77):
Between those directly work for the government, and those that work in industries related to the government, it has to be a massive amount

Again, you have to make a distinction between those who work directly for government and those who work in private sector industries related to government who are not flying on government tickets.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 77):
One of the biggest reasons the D.C. economy has done so well is the government.

Sure, but that's because most people here have jobs and money as a result of that. So more disposable income, etc. It's definitely because of government, but this doesn't make flights profitable....The people with the money still need to book expensive travel for airlines to make money!

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAV88
Posted 2012-03-16 06:51:56 and read 8538 times.

Take the capitol out of D.C. and what do you have?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: sq_ek_freak
Posted 2012-03-16 07:23:18 and read 8473 times.

Quoting contrails67 (Reply 45):
Taking into account the departure and arrivals to DXB as well as my connecting flights' departure and arrival as well, it will be at least a 12 hour wait in DXB. Does anyone know whether EK provides free hotel accomodations for connecting passengers with a waiting duration of this length?

EK does provide accommodation for a layover that long, plus transfer to the hotel and back to the airport, and meal vouchers for dining at the hotel.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 72):
There is talk on here that SEA is to quite where EK wants it at the moment. Can i ask, has EK actually ever pulled out of a market? I dont mean downguaged the aircraft, I mean actually pulled out. I cannot think of anywhere it has but stand to be corrected.

On top of what has already been said on this thread (Baku, Comoros, Tripoli), EK has also pulled out of Nagoya and Alexandria (few years ago) and Ho Chi Minh City (many years ago). SGN is coming back this summer, and TIP will probably resume at some point.

GYD has gone to FlyDubai though I always thought it was a high yielding market with all the oil and gas folks going there...HBE has also gone to FlyDubai (better suited for them versus EK).

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: hohd
Posted 2012-03-16 07:28:32 and read 8450 times.

In addition to EY, UA will also feel the heat. Lots of UA pax connect at DXB ironically with EK. They would come to an end. The Govt traffic alone is not enough, as many govt contracts are priced below the market.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: jfidler
Posted 2012-03-16 07:53:12 and read 8372 times.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 79):
Take the capitol out of D.C. and what do you have?

You have all the other industries. According to the Greater Washington Board of Trade, only 11% of the area workforce is directly employed by the federal government. http://www.greaterwashington.org/regional-data/employment.aspx

There's a huge tech industry in the area, and it's not all tied to the government. Loudoun County in Virginia has the highest concentration of datacenters in the world, for example.

I think it would be a poor decision for an airline to make their decision to open IAD service solely on the prospect of gov't traffic. I just don't think enough is there. I haven't looked, but maybe there is even data to back this up, since those arriving into IAD on official gov't travel will be using their official passport, not their personal passport.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-16 08:33:08 and read 8262 times.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 79):
Take the capitol out of D.C. and what do you have?

This is a ridiculous analogy. It's like saying "Take Wall Street out of NYC, and what do you have?". The fact of the matter is that Washington, DC is the nation's capital and the location of the federal government. It doesn't mean that the federal government is paying for air travel for its employees to everywhere.

I'm actually really so over this argument on A.net. People should take a look at the GSA contacts for government employees. Even to cities with nonstop flights from Washington, people are often stuck flying on random airlines. It's really one of the most overblown arguments on A.net. For example, if you search for a government ticket on Washington-London, it is on American (presumably flown by British Airways), not United with its multiple daily non-stop flights from Dulles.

Quoting jfidler (Reply 82):
I think it would be a poor decision for an airline to make their decision to open IAD service solely on the prospect of gov't traffic. I just don't think enough is there. I haven't looked, but maybe there is even data to back this up, since those arriving into IAD on official gov't travel will be using their official passport, not their personal passport.

Excellent points, but it's much easier for people to not think and just conclude that any new service to Dulles is because of Uncle Sam!

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAV88
Posted 2012-03-16 09:11:37 and read 8176 times.

I never said that this air service from EK to IAD was due to government traffic. Nor did I ever say that an airline makes their choice to fly to D.C. solely because of the potential government traffic. My whole point is that to try and downplay the fact that Washington, D.C. is the capitol, and between actual government workers and those that are an offshoot (lobbyists, lawyers, industries that rely on government contracts and subsidies, non-profits and foundations that rely on government funding for example) don't make up a significant portion of all business travel to the D.C. area is incorrect.


Anyways, does anyone think EK could eventually elevate this route to the 380?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: leftyboarder
Posted 2012-03-16 09:17:35 and read 8134 times.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 84):
Anyways, does anyone think EK could eventually elevate this route to the 380?

With so many on order, will there be many stations they won't?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: jfidler
Posted 2012-03-16 09:26:02 and read 8132 times.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 84):
Anyways, does anyone think EK could eventually elevate this route to the 380?

Personally, I'd love to see another A380 at IAD (it's just AF at the moment). However, if you look at their press release announcing IAD service (first post in this thread), it is worded to really play up how the new service will support US companies and provides jobs to Americans. The B777 is mentioned specifically in this argument. A good move by their PR firm to head off any "invasion of EK" naysayers.

Of course, memories are short and maybe they could up-gauge this to an A380 in a year's time and no one will make a fuss.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: C680
Posted 2012-03-16 11:13:49 and read 7951 times.

Quoting gabrielz (Reply 76):
The issue isn't that DC is purely a government market at all - to your point it is a wealthy (albeit small) MSA

DC is the #7 MSA in the country - what criteria do you use to consider that a "small" MSA?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_o...tes_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-03-16 11:29:50 and read 7885 times.

Quoting C680 (Reply 87):
DC is the #7 MSA in the country - what criteria do you use to consider that a "small" MSA?

And if you throw in Baltimore (which is reasonable when evaluating international air travel), the DC area is the 4th largest combined statistical area in the country with over 8.5 million people.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: flytuitravel
Posted 2012-03-16 14:02:32 and read 7673 times.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 80):
Quoting ual777uk (Reply 72):
There is talk on here that SEA is to quite where EK wants it at the moment. Can i ask, has EK actually ever pulled out of a market? I dont mean downguaged the aircraft, I mean actually pulled out. I cannot think of anywhere it has but stand to be corrected.

On top of what has already been said on this thread (Baku, Comoros, Tripoli), EK has also pulled out of Nagoya and Alexandria (few years ago) and Ho Chi Minh City (many years ago). SGN is coming back this summer, and TIP will probably resume at some point.

GYD has gone to FlyDubai though I always thought it was a high yielding market with all the oil and gas folks going there...HBE has also gone to FlyDubai (better suited for them versus EK).

They also pulled out of AUH according to wikipedia..

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-03-16 20:03:52 and read 7344 times.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 80):
Quoting contrails67 (Reply 45):
Taking into account the departure and arrivals to DXB as well as my connecting flights' departure and arrival as well, it will be at least a 12 hour wait in DXB. Does anyone know whether EK provides free hotel accomodations for connecting passengers with a waiting duration of this length?

EK does provide accommodation for a layover that long, plus transfer to the hotel and back to the airport, and meal vouchers for dining at the hotel.

Be aware that this service needs to be pre-booked at least 24hrs in advance of departure and is subject to class of travel i.e. booking class U, B, M, E, W, R or Y for Economy, or J, D, C, I, O, F, P, Z or A for First and Business. Visit this page for further information. http://www.emirates.com/au/english/p...al_information/long_stopovers.aspx

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-03-16 21:07:14 and read 7275 times.

I'm with C680 in that I'm eating crow. The poster who noted the hiring is to be commended. What was I doing ratioalizing against such a fact.

How are Ek's SEA loads? With the competition, I would have picked another city. So ORD OR BOS? I would have picked MIA too... But I'll change my vote to that of those that seem to know better.

I believe, thanks to EK's hubbing advantage that they will come out ahead of QR and EY. I suspect EK swill put an A380 on the route and use break even or even low profit J to push a competitor off the route. or three ...

In this economy companies are trying to cut expenses while trying to make employees feel a little pampered. I hypothesize it is why EK, LHN and other good but a few extra J seats squeezed in our doing so well.

Yes, there is a market for SQ's fat easy seat. I'm just a believer in elastic markets. Even for premium seats.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2012-03-16 21:18:17 and read 7245 times.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 80):
On top of what has already been said on this thread (Baku, Comoros, Tripoli), EK has also pulled out of Nagoya and Alexandria (few years ago) and Ho Chi Minh City (many years ago). SGN is coming back this summer, and TIP will probably resume at some point.

Nagoya was mainly used as way into the Japanese arket from memory, prior to gaining further rights.
SGN is now part of a growing market, so they were likely in there before it had the right level of viability to suit the EK model. The return seems to point to a more positive outlook that it has the right mix to work.
Tripoli being a hotspot of tension and still in a phase of rebuilding is not unexpected.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 80):
GYD has gone to FlyDubai though I always thought it was a high yielding market with all the oil and gas folks going there...HBE has also gone to FlyDubai (better suited for them versus EK).

Moving flights over to FlyDubai is not really a pure axing of flights by EK, but a more sensible business decision to send a different product into the market.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: Schweigend
Posted 2012-03-16 23:15:39 and read 7144 times.

Quoting L101fan (Reply 60):
I flew QR from IAD-DOH-KTM and will return next week. The flight from IAD was almost completely full. It was a very good flight. With QR expanding their route structure and the quality of their service I would fly them again with no hesitation.

Kathmandu? What a thrill (I'm jealous)! I think EK serves KTM too, but not AF.

Quoting catiii (Reply 64):
DL isn't carrying much O/D traffic from ATL, however they're maximizing the hub to connect traffic from all over the network through ATL to DXB. For EK, ATL would be a final destination, maximizing traffic through the DXB hub to connect traffic from all over their network to ATL. Different markets entirely.

This is an important concept to understand: for US carriers DXB is basically a termination point, with transfers being interline. EK moves pax on its own metal over Dubai to diverse places. Different markets indeed!

Quoting hohd (Reply 81):
In addition to EY, UA will also feel the heat. Lots of UA pax connect at DXB ironically with EK. They would come to an end. The Govt traffic alone is not enough, as many govt contracts are priced below the market.

Others who may really feel the heat would be AF with their daily A380 IAD-CDG, LH with FRA, and BA with LHR. I don't know what percentage of their pax connect to onward flights at at their respective hubs, but I'd guess the number is fairly high, like 50 percent. EK will compete in many of the same markets they serve, and it will offer some destinations they can't, such as KTM   and the South Pacific.

Quoting jfidler (Reply 86):
Personally, I'd love to see another A380 at IAD (it's just AF at the moment).

We'll see if IAD can support two A380s. If EK brings one in, AF may downgauge.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-03-17 00:37:44 and read 7055 times.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 93):
I think EK serves KTM too,

No, think again. The sector between DXB and KTM is with FZ which, despite being a Dubai owned company is not actually part of the Emirates Group.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-03-17 05:53:24 and read 6831 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 56):

While I'm not disputing this fact, it seems my hometown of Detroit would have had EK service by now. According to the Arab-American Institute, Michigan is just behind California with the most Arabs;

Not all Middle Easterns are Arabs. Just saying  
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 58):
Discounted tickets to Indians

Well there are a lot more Indians than DC government officials  
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 58):
It's less circuitous from Europe to East Africa.

Circuitous compared to what? Most of the traffic between N.America and Africa goes via Europe. It's not that huge of a detour to connect to Africa via DXB as opposed to FRA/CDG/AMS. But regarding Europe-Africa, tt's not East Africa where the market from Europe is. It's West Africa and South Africa: JNB, LAD, LOS. Why do you think IB is pulling out of JNB? Because EK is eating their lunch. What do you think is the market they're after in LIS? LIS-LAD, and LIS-JNB.

[Edited 2012-03-17 05:54:35]

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: malioil
Posted 2012-03-17 06:19:10 and read 6812 times.

On my frequent UA BAH-KWI-IAD runs, the flights were full in First Class and Y (about 60% in J), but the thing about that is they were government contracts that keep these flights full. In fact, we get NA and OY flights to supplement them, but to be honest, I can't see how EK can truly fill their flights to IAD, although the premium market on that route should be very significant. Nonetheless, out of BAH, if I wanted to go one stop to IAD, I now have BA, UA, KL, QR, TK, LH and soon EK as well as EY. This will apply to the rest of the region. Overcapacity?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: N93109
Posted 2012-03-17 08:00:53 and read 6640 times.

I want to add that the Washington/Baltimore region is also the wealthiest of the metro areas on the country with nearly 9M people according to the 2010 Census and growing. The Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area is a combined statistical area consisting of the overlapping labor market region of the cities of Baltimore, Maryland and Washington, D.C.. The region includes Central Maryland, Northern Virginia, and Jefferson County in the Eastern Panhandle of West Virginia. It is the most educated, highest-income, and fourth largest Combined Statistical Area in the United States.[1][2] Officially, the area is designated by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) as the Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV CSA.

Frankly, IAD pulls in Southern PA, the state of MD, and most of WV and VA for the international catchment area which takes the total population over 15 Million.

There is undoubtedly share shift from AF, LH, KL, UA and BA planned for EY and EK to justify these new services.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-03-17 08:33:58 and read 6597 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 95):

Circuitous compared to what? Most of the traffic between N.America and Africa goes via Europe
EK carries fairly little traffic from North America to Africa. In fact it carries more traffic to HYD than all of Africa combined.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 95):
Why do you think IB is pulling out of JNB? Because EK is eating their lunch. What do you think is the market they're after in LIS? LIS-LAD, and LIS-JNB.

I highly doubt IB's decision had anything to do with EK. South Africa is simply not a large market from Spain, especially when IB is partnered with one of the largest carriers to South Africa. LAD for TP is mostly ethnic, and not very high fare. If EK is going after that and wanting to fly that traffic thousands of miles further for the same or lower fare, they're not that bright.

[Edited 2012-03-17 08:39:49]

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-03-17 08:36:26 and read 6598 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 95):
Why do you think IB is pulling out of JNB? Because EK is eating their lunch. What do you think is the market they're after in LIS? LIS-LAD, and LIS-JNB.

EK's share of MADJNB is tiny. It averages less than 60 passengers a month between Madrid and Jo'Burg. EK is a great airline, but it's not so amazing that people add 50% distance to get between Europe and South Africa. The reason Iberia is ending JNB is blatantly obvious: it is now part of BA, and there is no need to serve the very small MADJNB market when the money is in LHRJNB.

And to imply that EK will get a share of LISIAD is ridiculous when there are multiple daily LISLAD non-stops, not to mention OPOLIS non-stops. LISJNB is a small market, and TP pulled out.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-03-17 12:09:43 and read 6336 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 98):
EK carries fairly little traffic from North America to Africa. In fact it carries more traffic to HYD than all of Africa combined.

They only serve 1 city in the East coast, where the bulk of the Africa traffic originates. You just wait until they start developing other East Coast markets.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 99):
EK's share of MADJNB is tiny. It averages less than 60 passengers a month between Madrid and Jo'Burg. EK is a great airline, but it's not so amazing that people add 50% distance to get between Europe and South Africa. The reason Iberia is ending JNB is blatantly obvious: it is now part of BA, and there is no need to serve the very small MADJNB market when the money is in LHRJNB.

You have one thing right: MAD-JNB is a small market. But EK also serves BCN, so they had already stolen part of that traffic from IB. And it's exactly because the market is so small that it didn't take much (60/month) to make it non viable for IB.

I don't know where you get 50% from. MAD-DXB-JNB is a mere 1000nm longer than MAD-LHR-JNB.
LHR-DXB-JNB is 30% longer than the non-stop. I can't believe people keep sticking their heads in the sand, and yet EK keep growing.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 99):

And to imply that EK will get a share of LISIAD is ridiculous when there are multiple daily LISLAD non-stops, not to mention OPOLIS non-stops. LISJNB is a small market, and TP pulled out.

You wait and see. They're not deploying a 77W for the LIS-Asia traffic alone, that's for sure. LAD is a very price sensitive market, with a big portion being VFR traffic during major holiday periods. If they undercut TAP and TAG by even just a bit, they will have no problem getting a share of the market. LIS-JNB is not a small market. It's a low yield market, almost entirely VFR and more seasonal than LAD. TP couldn't make it work becuase TP has very high fixed costs and is short of planes so they chose to redeploy it where they could make more profit. It's the same reason why they don't serve BOS which has a sizable VFR demand during holiday periods only. BOS and JNB are the same exact type of market.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-03-17 12:40:18 and read 6286 times.

Am I the only one who thinks EK is trying to keep QR/EY from growing/gaining first mover advantage at IAD. The mid-east is a fast growing market, so I see the need for growing North-America to mid-east growth.

IMHO, the only 'threat' to EK is if EY or QR join one of the major alliances and cement better code-share/connection deals to expand.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 100):
They only serve 1 city in the East coast, where the bulk of the Africa traffic originates. You just wait until they start developing other East Coast markets.

You have me curious. Do you have any links on the US/Africa market? I'm well aware of how DL has expanded their service, but I'd like to know more of the action O&D cities.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-03-17 13:03:23 and read 6243 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 100):
But EK also serves BCN, so they had already stolen part of that traffic from IB.

EK doesn't serve BCN yet, They will start on July 3rd.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-03-17 13:17:17 and read 6229 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 100):
They only serve 1 city in the East coast, where the bulk of the Africa traffic originates. You just wait until they start developing other East Coast markets.

Not likely. The fact remains EK has to fly them a good 1000+ miles further than European/African carriers in order to connect North America and East Africa, all at the same fare if they want to be competitive. It just doesn't add up.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 100):
You have one thing right: MAD-JNB is a small market. But EK also serves BCN, so they had already stolen part of that traffic from IB. And it's exactly because the market is so small that it didn't take much (60/month) to make it non viable for IB.

No. 1 pdew is not going to make or break a longhaul widebody market. The MAD/LISJNB markets simply aren't there, and certainly not any business traffic.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 100):
If they undercut TAP and TAG by even just a bit, they will have no problem getting a share of the market

That makes no sense. You can buy a nonstop roundtrip LISLAD ticket for ~$1200 all in. Nonstop, that yield is about 17 cents each way. Via DXB it's half that, or 8 cents. That's without EK undercutting TP/DT. Why would EK do that to themselves?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-03-17 17:14:00 and read 6060 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 100):
But EK also serves BCN, so they had already stolen part of that traffic from IB.

No, EK does not serve Barcelona yet.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 100):
I don't know where you get 50% from.

Because MADDXBJNB is 49.2% longer than MADJNB. The difference via LHR is less, but travellers tend to prefer one short-haul/one long-haul, rather than a pair of long-hauls.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 100):
I can't believe people keep sticking their heads in the sand, and yet EK keep growing.

Only you are sticking your head in the sand. You refuse to use facts to back up your arguments.

MADJNB is a small local market, around 26 PDEW. Iberia carries ~55% of that market. Emirates carries ~1.5 PDEW.

LISLAD is obviously a very large local market, but Angola does not put insane frequency restrictions on flights to Portugal, unlike other countries. There is a lot of capacity between Portugal and Angola; yields are low; and Emirates won't be fighting for much of it at all.

Emirates does have a decent share of Western Europe-South Africa (but not from the eastern part of the continent), around 10% of the market, but it captures this traffic with a sub-$900 one-way average fare, compared to BA's average fare which approaches $2,000 one-way.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-03-17 19:24:51 and read 5930 times.

Quoting gabrielz (Reply 7):
Plus with the new hard product and enhanced mileage plus, I'd say EK's product advantage has shrunk substantially against an invigorated (and cash-rich) UA.

This part I understand. However, prior you commented this would be EK's Waterloo. EK growth won't halt if one city doesn't pan out (as implied by a "Waterloo.")

What I wonder is is where the EK feed is going? With India flights/seats impacted, I assume new routes to Asia are displacing European travelers to make room for travel to Pakistan/India.

Related question, why isn't EK expanding more in China? Are their bilaterals maxed out? I would think, despite the issues with the Chinese housing market, that there would be growth to Africa and Europe.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: miaintl
Posted 2012-03-18 17:12:46 and read 5500 times.

Is MIA truly on EK's radar or are we just assuming that EK will serve MIA? I don't remember reading about EK officials coming to MIA and scouting the place as a possible destination. From what i gather what little traffic MIA has to the Indian Subcontinent is already sufficiently served by BA, AF and LH through their respective European hubs. There is no real need for EK to serve the MIA market. I predict that EK's next destinations would be ORD, BOS, and maybe ATL.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-03-18 17:26:10 and read 5473 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 103):
Not likely. The fact remains EK has to fly them a good 1000+ miles further than European/African carriers in order to connect North America and East Africa, all at the same fare if they want to be competitive. It just doesn't add up.

It adds up because EK's operating costs a lot lower than those of the legacy carriers in Europe.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 103):
That makes no sense. You can buy a nonstop roundtrip LISLAD ticket for ~$1200 all in.

If you can get it. I've seen fares as high as $2000. the Portuguese are late bookers  
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 104):
No, EK does not serve Barcelona yet.

I stand corrected.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 104):
MADJNB is a small local market, around 26 PDEW. Iberia carries ~55% of that market. Emirates carries ~1.5 PDEW.

Yes, but IB was not flying an A340 with only 26 pax. Certainly they were getting a lot of connenctions from other points in Europe whose pax now and for the past few years have gotten EK as an option.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 104):
Only you are sticking your head in the sand. You refuse to use facts to back up your arguments.

Sorry, my facts are that to everyone's surprise EK is going to start flying a daily 77W into LIS, they are going to throw 300 daily seats at the LIS market when the current entire Portugal-Asia market is just over 100PDEW, annualized, and you expect me to believe that EK doesn't expect to attract a portion of the LIS-Africa market. Your argument doesn't add up either.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-03-18 17:26:14 and read 5490 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 106):
Is MIA truly on EK's radar or are we just assuming that EK will serve MIA? I don't remember reading about EK officials coming to MIA and scouting the place as a possible destination. From what i gather what little traffic MIA has to the Indian Subcontinent is already sufficiently served by BA, AF and LH through their respective European hubs. There is no real need for EK to serve the MIA market. I predict that EK's next destinations would be ORD, BOS, and maybe ATL.

Yes, MIA really is in Emirates radar and EK itself has said so itself, do a Google search. And Miami doesn't have "little traffic"'to India. It actually has a fairly good amount to India and Pakistan. People often forget Miami has one of the fastest growing Indian communities in the country, and the Indian community is not insignificant.

ATL isn't going to happen anytime soon. Chicago is probably next; and I wouldn't be surprised if Boston and Miami are launched in tandem.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-03-18 17:30:38 and read 5488 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 107):
Sorry, my facts are that to everyone's surprise EK is going to start flying a daily 77W into LIS, they are going to throw 300 daily seats at the LIS market when the current entire Portugal-Asia market is just over 100PDEW, annualized, and you expect me to believe that EK doesn't expect to attract a portion of the LIS-Africa market. Your argument doesn't add up either.

Ever heard of something called market stimulation? EK will significantly stimulate from Lisbon to Asia.

Emirates won't grab a significant share of Lisbon-Africa for very simple reasons. First of all, the market is very small (much smaller than Lisbon-Asia) when you exclude former colonies, of which EK only serves one. Secondly, the colony market is so well served from Lisbon, and so low-priced, EK won't be able to compete on LISLAD effectively, even with its low costs.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: miaintl
Posted 2012-03-18 17:46:17 and read 5443 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 108):

If any Mid-east carrier does end up serving MIA then its TK. Dont forget that the Indian population in the MIA metro is not very high-yielding so i don't think that is something that will attract EK. As for the Indian population it is insignificant. If EK is to justify its presence in MIA than it has to be something other than demographics.

[Edited 2012-03-18 17:50:14]

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-03-18 17:56:02 and read 5434 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 110):
As for the Indian population it is insignificant.

No, it's not! It's approaching 50,000, and that's just based on Census estimates. The actual community is even larger. And that's just Miami - Emirates service to MIA will pull in from Tampa and Orlando, as well, both with growing Indian communities, not to mention connections from the West Indies, an area with a large Indian concentration. And of course EK will need to pull from other areas - it will! There is the Miami-Middle East traffic; there is the traffic from the Middle East that can transfer to Latin Ameirca; there is the large Miami-Phillipines market to tap into, just to give three of many examples. EK is an airline that relies on market stimulation to establish itself, and it will absolutely do that in South Florida, an insanely easy market to stimulate.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 110):
If any Mid-east carrier does end up serving MIA then its TK
TK is a European airline with is hub on the European continent.

[Edited 2012-03-18 17:57:43]

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: miaintl
Posted 2012-03-18 18:23:36 and read 5406 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 111):

50,000 is not a large population. Plus DXB is mostly a connecting point to India, so the Philippines does not factor into this. MIA-India is still a relatively small market that has been efficiently covered by the Euro carriers.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-03-18 18:33:20 and read 5388 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 112):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 111):

50,000 is not a large population. Plus DXB is mostly a connecting point to India, so the Philippines does not factor into this. MIA-India is still a relatively small market that has been efficiently covered by the Euro carriers.

Yes, it is. It makes it among the largest in the country and it's larger than Miami's Bolivian or Mexican communities, among others.

And Dubai absolutely is a connecting point for Miami-Manila. In fact, when visiting Miami and talking about Miami's role in EK's network, Emirates' vice president specifically talked about how EK would like to take advantage of the Miami-Philippines market.

Miami-India is not a small market. I really don't understand why you refuse to read this fact. It's a decent-sized local market that has been seeing consistent growth. Miami-Bombay is even larger than Dallas-Bombay. Miami-India is larger than Miami-Portugal and about the size of Miami-Russia.

I will stop posting facts and figures, though. Sorry you don't find them useful. It is clear your mind is made up regardless of you using incorrect facts and having no grasp about traffic patterns.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-18 18:45:37 and read 5360 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 113):
It makes it among the largest in the country

Not really. I'd bet it's probably not even in the top ten of American cities/metropolitan areas.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: miaintl
Posted 2012-03-18 18:49:21 and read 5354 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 113):

I would like to see the sources you cite with regards to the Philippines. If MIA wants to tap into that market there best bet is to go with an East Asian carrier like KE or JL. EK is just not used to connect US-bound passengers to East Asia.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAV88
Posted 2012-03-18 18:54:46 and read 5342 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 114):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 113):
It makes it among the largest in the country

Not really. I'd bet it's probably not even in the top ten of American cities/metropolitan areas.

Based off the 2010 census, it's not. It sits at #12 I think.

Are the any significant business ties between South Florida and India?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-03-18 19:07:19 and read 5332 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 114):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 113):
It makes it among the largest in the country

Not really. I'd bet it's probably not even in the top ten of American cities/metropolitan areas.


Fourteenth largest, making it one of the largest in the country.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 115):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 113):

I would like to see the sources you cite with regards to the Philippines. If MIA wants to tap into that market there best bet is to go with an East Asian carrier like KE or JL. EK is just not used to connect US-bound passengers to East Asia.


Nigel Page spoke about it while attending a tourism/airline event at the Wyndham in Miami. It's in the Miami Herald archives. I'm not going to pay $2.95 for the article to prove it. Feel free to do so yourself.

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 116):
Are the any significant business ties between South Florida and India?

The most significant is Citrix Systems, the Fort Lauderdale-based Fortune 500 company with significant business operations and partners in India. Lately a lot of the growth in business between South Florida and India has come in the fashion and film industries.

[Edited 2012-03-18 19:12:39]

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-03-18 19:35:27 and read 5287 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 109):
Emirates won't grab a significant share of Lisbon-Africa for very simple reasons. First of all, the market is very small (much smaller than Lisbon-Asia) when you exclude former colonies, of which EK only serves one. Secondly, the colony market is so well served from Lisbon, and so low-priced, EK won't be able to compete on LISLAD effectively, even with its low costs.

I never said they would grab a significant share of the market. My exact words used were "a share" and "a portion". We'll know for sure when TP reduces their frequencies  
And to say that the Lisbon-Africa market is a small market if you exclude the former colonies is like saying England-Americas is a small market if you exclude the former England colonies. It's ridiculous, you can't separate it. It's like the other guy above saying "What woulld the DC marke tbe without the Capitol"?  
And how long do you think it will be until EK starts MPM, once they start LIS? I'll give it 12 months.
Anyway, this is getting way off topic. My original assetion was that EK will carry a good share of Africa bound connecting passengers from IAD, despite the 1000nm or so detour over the usual European hubs. They'll make up for it in marketing, services, and optimized connections.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-03-18 19:37:38 and read 5295 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 118):
And to say that the Lisbon-Africa market is a small market if you exclude the former colonies is like saying England-Americas is a small market if you exclude the former England colonies. It's ridiculous, you can't separate it.

Of course you can separate it, especially when we are talking about EK's ability to capture Lisbon-Africa.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-03-18 19:44:12 and read 5283 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 118):
And how long do you think it will be until EK starts MPM, once they start LIS? I'll give it 12 months.

Have you looked at a map?

Quoting airbazar (Reply 118):
My original assetion was that EK will carry a good share of Africa bound connecting passengers from IAD, despite the 1000nm or so detour over the usual European hubs. They'll make up for it in marketing, services, and optimized connections.

They'll have to do it at the going market fare, which while perhaps decent for EU carriers will be much lower yield for EK because of the longer distance. There's simply no reason for EK to aggressively take that traffic; there are plenty of other higher volume, higher yield opportunities to go after first.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: ojas
Posted 2012-03-18 19:46:06 and read 5296 times.

The Indian community in MIA or any other city which EK wishes to start does play an important role in planning to start a flight, however the priority is whether EK will get good high yielding/premium passengers on a regular basis to fill the flights along with good cargo volumes. If MIA can provide that then definitely EK is coming there.

If the Indian community is the #1 reason why EK should start flights to a particular point, I'm surprised why ORD and EWR are still not EK online points.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-03-18 19:59:13 and read 5265 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 120):
Have you looked at a map?

I was born and raised there. I think I'm familiar with it  
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 109):
Ever heard of something called market stimulation? EK will significantly stimulate from Lisbon to Asia.

Maybe traffic originating outside of Portugal because there aren't a lot of people left in Portugal who can afford to fly that far   TP's own passenger growth has come entirely from foreign sales. Where EK will benefit at LIS will be interline pax from TP's routes to Brazil. In fact in this regard I think TP and EK will benefit mutually.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: miaintl
Posted 2012-03-18 22:08:36 and read 5133 times.

Quoting ojas (Reply 121):

And I have reasons to believe that the Indian-community in Miami is low-yielding which is why MIA is not on EK's radar. The fact that I cannot find any link or article on the internet about EK's supposed "interest" in MIA leads me to believe that Mark's information is not reliable.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2012-03-19 00:20:03 and read 5051 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 113):
Yes, it is. It makes it among the largest in the country and it's larger than Miami's Bolivian or Mexican communities, among others.

And Dubai absolutely is a connecting point for Miami-Manila. In fact, when visiting Miami and talking about Miami's role in EK's network, Emirates' vice president specifically talked about how EK would like to take advantage of the Miami-Philippines market.

Miami-India is not a small market. I really don't understand why you refuse to read this fact. It's a decent-sized local market that has been seeing consistent growth. Miami-Bombay is even larger than Dallas-Bombay. Miami-India is larger than Miami-Portugal and about the size of Miami-Russia.

I will stop posting facts and figures, though. Sorry you don't find them useful. It is clear your mind is made up regardless of you using incorrect facts and having no grasp about traffic patterns.

I'm just curious, with all the talk of the importance of the Phillipine market and the Indian market to Emirates, how is SEA not performing well but MIA would be expected to? SEA has a significantly larger Filipino population than does MIA, it also has a larger Indian population. In addition SEA has a large east Asian population from a variety of countries, including Vietnam, Thailand, etc. Given the tech industries in the SEA area, and their ties to India, I would think that SEA would being blowing the doors off.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: david_itl
Posted 2012-03-19 00:22:57 and read 5053 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 123):
The fact that I cannot find any link or article on the internet about EK's supposed "interest" in MIA leads me to believe that Mark's information is not reliable
one article

another article and this one includes "it's a very important market for us, particularly with the cruise lines being based here."

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-03-19 00:48:19 and read 5034 times.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 124):
I'm just curious, with all the talk of the importance of the Phillipine market and the Indian market to Emirates, how is SEA not performing well but MIA would be expected to?

Seattle is on the west coast and Miami is on the east coast. That makes all the difference with regards to capturing Philpine traffic in this case.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: EY460
Posted 2012-03-19 01:01:22 and read 5021 times.

I know that a lot people are suggesting MIA as EK destination, but I have another idea, Fort Lauderdale. I'll now explain why:
1) With an interlining agreement with Jetblue (and maybe some other Central or South American carriers) they can reach few Caribbean Islands and Latin America.
2) Cruise ship traffic. I'm not talking about passengers, as the majority of them are coming from North America, but crew. Maybe not everybody knows that on a large cruise ship, every week there is a crew change of about 40 to 100 crewmembers. When my ship was based in Port Everglades, the majority of the crew was flying to Miami and then transferred by bus to the port. The same could be done for Miami, with crew bussed from FLL. If you add the ships in Miami and Port Everglades you have a huge traffic. And where is the majority of this crew coming from? India and the Philippines. There is also a large part of the crew coming from East Europe, and I can ensure that the people booking tickets for the crew don't care about backtracking a bit, if the price is right. This traffic is a bit seasonal (there are probably twice the ship in winter than in summer) and there is a higher concentration of ships on weekends, but there is still traffic all year round. Almost all the tickets are booked one-way and I'm sure EK can make some sort of deal with a cruise line for bulks of tickets.
3) The problem with premium passengers can be solved with the usual EK limo service which includes Miami.
4) Not sure, but probably FLL is less congested than MIA.
5) FLL may try to offer a better deal than MIA in order to secure the service.
6) Fort Lauderdale is already a popular destination by itself, of course not as popular as Miami, but still popular.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-03-19 06:14:14 and read 4847 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 126):
That makes all the difference with regards to capturing Philpine traffic in this case.
Quoting EY460 (Reply 127):
Cruise ship traffic. I'm not talking about passengers, as the majority of them are coming from North America, but crew. Maybe not everybody knows that on a large cruise ship, every week there is a crew change of about 40 to 100 crewmembers

MNL yield from just about anywhere, but particularly South Florida is terrible

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-03-19 07:09:46 and read 4768 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 126):
Seattle is on the west coast and Miami is on the east coast. That makes all the difference with regards to capturing Philpine traffic in this case.

Im sure MIA will one day land EK, but I doubt if it will have anything to do with the Filipino traffic to MIA. The yields are some of the lowest in the country.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: sq_ek_freak
Posted 2012-03-19 07:29:38 and read 4714 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 90):
Be aware that this service needs to be pre-booked at least 24hrs in advance of departure and is subject to class of travel i.e. booking class U, B, M, E, W, R or Y for Economy, or J, D, C, I, O, F, P, Z or A for First and Business. Visit this page for further information. http://www.emirates.com/au/english/p....aspx

Yes, what Quokkas said too   thank you for adding the information! Also, unfortunately, no I was not the crew who worked the MAD flight you were on...I was pretty sure I wasn't but I went back to double check my log to be 100%. Maybe some time in the future though!  
Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 92):
Nagoya was mainly used as way into the Japanese arket from memory, prior to gaining further rights.

I believe this is true - it was always Narita that EK wanted access to.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 92):
SGN is now part of a growing market, so they were likely in there before it had the right level of viability to suit the EK model.

I believe there were some issues with cargo theft and governmental bureaucracies back then as well, some of which has undoubtedly changed since the late 1990s. I do believe the traffic is there as well.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 92):

Moving flights over to FlyDubai is not really a pure axing of flights by EK, but a more sensible business decision to send a different product into the market.

Well theoretically they are two separate airlines, and FZ offers no premium product so it's kind of inconvenient for EK's premium customers. That and GYD was axed before FZ was even started...

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 93):

Kathmandu? What a thrill (I'm jealous)! I think EK serves KTM too, but not AF.

KTM is a beautiful city! But alas how I wish EK served KTM...we don't.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 94):
No, think again. The sector between DXB and KTM is with FZ which, despite being a Dubai owned company is not actually part of the Emirates Group.

I always thought with how well QR seems to do in Nepal (they are up to nearly triple daily at this point?) EK could do well with a daily A332 rotation...doesn't do much for me however, as it would undoubtedly be a turn for us...

Quoting miaintl (Reply 112):

50,000 is not a large population. Plus DXB is mostly a connecting point to India, so the Philippines does not factor into this.

India and indeed the subcontinent plays a large role, but I would say South East Asia is also really very important.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 115):
If MIA wants to tap into that market there best bet is to go with an East Asian carrier like KE or JL. EK is just not used to connect US-bound passengers to East Asia.

Not really, from the East Coast it doesn't matter either way given the distance...also keep in mind the Philippines is in South East Asia, NOT East Asia - this actually makes a difference here.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 124):
I'm just curious, with all the talk of the importance of the Phillipine market and the Indian market to Emirates, how is SEA not performing well but MIA would be expected to? SEA has a significantly larger Filipino population than does MIA, it also has a larger Indian population. In addition SEA has a large east Asian population from a variety of countries, including Vietnam, Thailand, etc. Given the tech industries in the SEA area, and their ties to India, I would think that SEA would being blowing the doors off.

Seattle is on the west coast where it is vastly quicker and easier to connect through East Asia to get to South East Asia - JL, NH, OZ, KE et al know this and time their connection banks accordingly. From the east coast, its essentially the same either way, so the likes to EK, QR and EY can take a share of the passengers as well.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 126):
Seattle is on the west coast and Miami is on the east coast. That makes all the difference with regards to capturing Philpine traffic in this case.

  

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: miaintl
Posted 2012-03-19 19:58:23 and read 4362 times.

Quoting david_itl (Reply 125):

Thanks for the links but they seem a little dated, you sure MIA has not fallen off the radar since then?

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2012-03-19 23:31:14 and read 4249 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 131):
MIA has not fallen off the radar since then?

It has not and EK will likely be flying to Chicago, Boston and Miami by the end of 2013. Also, a third daily New York flight could well be in the cards, either as an additional JFK service or through a new EWR operation.

Topic: RE: EK Announces New Service To IAD
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-03-19 23:56:40 and read 4223 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 128):
MNL yield from just about anywhere, but particularly South Florida is terrible

Absolutely, but it helps fill Y. Contracts with cruise companies in particular to get employees over can be negotiated at low fares, but still at terms that allow the airline to profit, just like contracts that cruises negotiate with airlines for cruise passengers.


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