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Topic: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2012-03-22 20:06:45 and read 15247 times.

According to several media sources and Twitter, Ground staff appear to have walked off the job in a wild cat strike at YYZ tonight.

Flights are hardly moving for Air Canada at the moment at YYZ.

http://www.680news.com/news/local/ar...s-stage-wild-cat-strike-at-pearson

1011yyz

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: YYZatcboy
Posted 2012-03-22 20:25:08 and read 15157 times.

Good for them! While probably illegal it shows they will not be bullied by our travesty of a federal labour minister.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: flyyul
Posted 2012-03-22 20:28:56 and read 15133 times.

Do AC employees realize that they are putting their jobs/careers on the line with this type of behaviour?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: mmedford
Posted 2012-03-22 20:35:42 and read 15108 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 2):
Do AC employees realize that they are putting their jobs/careers on the line with this type of behaviour?

What choice did they have?

Management wouldn't negotiate in good faith, and the government is siding with management instead of ordering fair arbirition.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: flyyul
Posted 2012-03-22 20:42:43 and read 15048 times.

How did management not negotiate in good faith?

Management reached tentative agreement with every single union! Every-time it reached the membership it was voted down. This occurred 2 times with CUPE (flight attendants).

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: mmedford
Posted 2012-03-22 20:45:50 and read 15022 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 4):
How did management not negotiate in good faith?

Management reached tentative agreement with every single union! Every-time it reached the membership it was voted down. This occurred 2 times with CUPE (flight attendants).



It's a negotiating tactic commonly used...

Look at the NATCA contract of 2006 and how it was imposed upon the controllers.

The agreement could have been voted down to force new negotiations instead of an imposed contract.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-22 20:47:05 and read 14999 times.

Yes it appears it is happening based on all of the reports. Congratulations YYZ rampies..... you've stranded folks on airplanes. Just think on that there are humans in those airplanes with children with them, job interviews to make, dying family members, funerals, weddings and life to get to. They bought their tickets in good faith. The idea of using innocent people to have your wishes/demands met sounds by definition like something our society does not ethically or morally support. If you don't see it this way then maybe you need to actually think.

The damage this is doing to the brand, the customer loyalty, the credibility of that company is unbelievable. It is pushing AC ever closer to CCAA and is maybe what needs to happen. If these folks' goal is unemployment, then they are certainly going about it the right way. It is at the point where I hope the CLRB and anyone else with authority to do so says enough, let's allow AC to lock out and shut down in an organized way, reorganize without the band of fools from the unions thinking they're in charge and restart. If the previous union employees are interested in a job, they can reapply (and I'm sure their track records will be reviewed). If they choose not to apply, then fine, let's hire some folks who are willing to work.

It is high time this ends. Canada is being held to ransom by AC's unions who show time and time again they're only looking for more for little delivery or quality of service. The labour minister has stated she notes AC's unions behave peculiarly -- they elect people to represent them then reject anything they bring back -- apparently negotiated in good faith. How on earth do you run a business like this? Time for a big change.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: WestJet747
Posted 2012-03-22 20:47:48 and read 14995 times.

If they truly felt the government was against them before, they have a hell of a firestorm coming their way...

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Thread starter):
According to several media sources and Twitter, Ground staff appear to have walked off the job in a wild cat strike at YYZ tonight.

I'm wondering what the strategy behind the timing was? Minimal flights are going to be affected this late at night. If they are trying to make a statement this big I would have assumed they would walk-off tomorrow morning.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 1):
While probably illegal

Probably?

Quoting mmedford (Reply 3):
What choice did they have?

Their safety and their livelihoods were not at risk. They could have waited to see where the arbitration went.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: mmedford
Posted 2012-03-22 20:56:36 and read 14922 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 6):
Yes it appears it is happening based on all of the reports. Congratulations YYZ rampies..... you've stranded folks on airplanes. Just think on that there are humans in those airplanes with children with them, job interviews to make, dying family members, funerals, weddings and life to get to. They bought their tickets in good faith. The idea of using innocent people to have your wishes/demands met sounds by definition like something our society does not ethically or morally support. If you don't see it this way then maybe you need to actually think.

Not if my goal is to show how important I am to your operation. If I remove myself; when you need me the most.You will suffer and see what my presence to the company means.

Honestly; if this was their intent...their point has been clearly displayed.

Look at the NYC MTA strike from several years ago, damn near shut down the city. Management and the city was taught a pretty good lesson after that.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: aerohottie
Posted 2012-03-22 21:05:15 and read 14878 times.

Its a shame AC can't legally just walk away from the union contracts, sack the lot of them and start again with new staff on new contracts that both the airline and the market are prepared to pay.
Make all of the staff reapply for their jobs... In this market I guarantee that if AC was able to recruit, and advertised for the roles they would get a truckload of applications from people who are very willing to work for a very sharp rate.

Perhaps the Labour Minister will consider legislative change... lets call it the "AC Two Fingers Act".
It really annoys me when people who have jobs, and are on pretty good rates (in the case of AC well above the market rate), still complain and moan, and yet there are those without work who would happily do their jobs for a fraction of the pay and conditions... nothing but short-sighted greed.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-22 21:06:17 and read 14859 times.

Per mmedfords post....

Well it raises a point. When you don't care if you hurt others to achieve your own goal, whether or not it is legal or moral.....it is to teach a lesson to tell you about what my presence means......I'll teach you a lesson.......

It sounds an awful lot like what terrorists believe. I'll do what I want to get my way and the hell with anyone who is affected by the negative fallout. My point is the point and you shall listen......

Sad we see this in other societies and shun it but fail to see it in our own.

We don't accept that in our society. We have reason to reject that behaviour.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: aerohottie
Posted 2012-03-22 21:09:00 and read 14846 times.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 8):
Look at the NYC MTA strike from several years ago, damn near shut down the city. Management and the city was taught a pretty good lesson after that.

REALLY?!? Management and the CITY were taught a lesson....
Perhaps there should be a clause in collective contracts that state that unions are freely able to take industrial action at any time, but have to reimburse the company and all those impacted for the costs incurred by such action.

That shouldn't make it too hard to bankrupt any unions that think holding their employers to ransom is a right...
I bet the unions would be very eager to bargain in good faith with such a clause...

[Edited 2012-03-22 21:13:27]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: whiteguy
Posted 2012-03-22 21:15:40 and read 14793 times.

They didn't walk because of the contract negots.

A couple ramp guys clapped sarcastically as Lisa Raitt walked by and AC corporate security, who were escorting her, grabbed them and fired them on the spot.

That's why the rest of the employees walked!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: AirCanada787
Posted 2012-03-22 21:16:30 and read 14780 times.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 1):

Good for them! While probably illegal it shows they will not be bullied by our travesty of a federal labour minister.

I'm actually not a fan of unions but I have to agree. Good for them the whole situation has been a bit of a circus with parties constantly involved that shouldn't be. No one group is at fault but its been clear for sometime that nothing positive was really going to happen. That said, I hope that they make a point tonight and it is business as usual in the morning. Maybe the union was just trying to yank the managements chain so to speak.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 10):
It sounds an awful lot like what terrorists believe. I'll do what I want to get my way and the hell with anyone who is affected by the negative fallout. My point is the point and you shall listen......

Sad we see this in other societies and shun it but fail to see it in our own.

We don't accept that in our society. We have reason to reject that behaviour.

To compare these actions to terrorists is quite frankly, distasteful in my opinion. This action by ground staff will never have near the results that a terrorist attack or organization could result in.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: AirCanada787
Posted 2012-03-22 21:20:15 and read 14754 times.

According to this article the employees were asked to return to work and ignored the request.

Several flights at Toronto's Pearson International Airport have been delayed after Air Canada ground crews walked off the job late Thursday night.

A reporter with Toronto's CP24 said about 150 crew members at the airport's Terminal 1 had launched a wildcat strike.

Passenger Elana Camille, who had flown to Toronto from Calgary, said she waited on the tarmac for about an hour before she could start to disembark.

She said none of the passengers were told what was happening.

"I only found out about it on Twitter," she told CTVNews.ca by phone.

A union representative asked the striking crew members to go back to work, but the request was ignored.

The federal government has passed back-to-work legislation that prevents Air Canada employees from striking. The bill covers about 8,600 mechanics, baggage handlers and other ground crew at Air Canada and about 3,000 pilots.

Last week, pilots threatened to call in sick as a response to the legislation, and Air Canada later confirmed "higher-than-usual" pilot book-offs over the weekend.


http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...ew-walk-off-job-in-toronto-120322/

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: WestJet747
Posted 2012-03-22 21:20:58 and read 14757 times.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 12):
They didn't walk because of the contract negots.

A couple ramp guys clapped sarcastically as Lisa Raitt walked by and AC corporate security, who were escorting her, grabbed them and fired them on the spot.

That's why the rest of the employees walked!

The 3 were suspended, not fired, according to the CBC.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: aerohottie
Posted 2012-03-22 21:25:16 and read 14722 times.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 12):
A couple ramp guys clapped sarcastically as Lisa Raitt walked by and AC corporate security, who were escorting her, grabbed them and fired them on the spot.

And rightly so... it is absolutely professional misconduct to treat any customer of the company in such a manner, and they were rightly sacked on the spot (suspended I think???). It is entirely inappropriate to display personal political actions while being employed to carry out professional tasks on behalf of the employer.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 12):
That's why the rest of the employees walked!

So they are sulking because the company upheld a minimum professional standard???...
A standard of professional conduct which is clearly communicated to staff and agreed to when an offer of employment is accepted...

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 13):
To compare these actions to terrorists is quite frankly, distasteful in my opinion. This action by ground staff will never have near the results that a terrorist attack or organization could result in.

idjim319 wasn't referring to the outcome of the action, but rather the mindset. And in that regard was not distasteful at all, and actually very accurate in my opinion.

[Edited 2012-03-22 21:26:39]

[Edited 2012-03-22 21:27:15]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2012-03-22 21:35:17 and read 14649 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 6):
Congratulations YYZ rampies..... you've stranded folks on airplanes. Just think on that there are humans in those airplanes with children with them, job interviews to make, dying family members, funerals, weddings and life to get to. They bought their tickets in good faith. The idea of using innocent people to have your wishes/demands met sounds by definition like something our society does not ethically or morally support. If you don't see it this way then maybe you need to actually think.

The damage this is doing to the brand, the customer loyalty, the credibility of that company is unbelievable. It is pushing AC ever closer to CCAA and is maybe what needs to happen. If these folks' goal is unemployment, then they are certainly going about it the right way.

Would instantly terminating employment of those involved in this wildcat strike send the correct message to other Air Canada employees?



LD4

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: whiteguy
Posted 2012-03-22 21:35:38 and read 14649 times.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
Quoting whiteguy (Reply 12):
They didn't walk because of the contract negots.

A couple ramp guys clapped sarcastically as Lisa Raitt walked by and AC corporate security, who were escorting her, grabbed them and fired them on the spot.

That's why the rest of the employees walked!

The 3 were suspended, not fired, according to the CBC.


Your right thanks!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: sebring
Posted 2012-03-22 21:39:25 and read 14629 times.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 3):
cs ago) and read 449 times:

Quoting flyyul (Reply 2):
Do AC employees realize that they are putting their jobs/careers on the line with this type of behaviour?

What choice did they have?

Management wouldn't negotiate in good faith, and the government is siding with management instead of ordering fair arbirition.

The company has made its final offer.

There is no obligation in labour law to keep giving, giving and giving to the union.

The mediator who presided over the negotiations that led to a tentative agreement the workers turned down called it very fair and professionally negotiated. The workers got wage increases totalling nine percent.

We're not talking about an airline that is making mega-bucks.

As for the walkout tonight, it had only a modest impact, a few flights arriving and outbound were delayed at the gate. All will be cleared by 1 a.m.

Tomorrow the airline will go to the Canada Labour Relations Board for an cease and desist order that will likely apply to all Toronto airport employees, on all shifts, meaning any repeat performances will lead to suspensions without pay or dismissal.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: sebring
Posted 2012-03-22 21:41:44 and read 14624 times.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 8):

Not if my goal is to show how important I am to your operation. If I remove myself; when you need me the most.You will suffer and see what my presence to the company means.

Ramp workers aren't pilots. Many AC ramp workers, like those of US legacy carriers, are lifers. I'm sure AC management would dance a hora if it could fire them with cause because of an illegal strike and replace them with young people on entry level wages.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-22 21:43:46 and read 14603 times.

Quoting aerohottie (Reply 16):
So they are sulking because the company upheld a minimum professional standard???...
A standard of professional conduct which is clearly communicated to staff and agreed to when an offer of employment is accepted...

This is the crux of the problem. These staff members, lazing about under a union leadership mentality of entitlement, forget who actually pays their wages. They forget these customers fares pay their gas bills, water bills, rent or mortgage, kids school fees, their car insurance..... At the end of the day it is not Montreal head office paying their wages. AC can, and if this continues, stop paying wages to staff. Shutting down a private company is entirely reasonable for shareholders. If you don't think so, did anyone note what just happened at Aveos. I believe those unions employees are now unemployed?

Honestly can these people not connect the paying customer to their own daily lives? Is it that big of a stretch? Well, I'm sure Westjet's employees will... by way of fat bonus cheques....due to the profits and market share coming their way. In that respect if it happens, then well done.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: MLD9S
Posted 2012-03-22 21:49:45 and read 14563 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 6):
Yes it appears it is happening based on all of the reports. Congratulations YYZ rampies..... you've stranded folks on airplanes. Just think on that there are humans in those airplanes with children with them, job interviews to make, dying family members, funerals, weddings and life to get to.

Oh please... stop being so dramatic.

Everyone on any airplane is flying for a reason.... whether it be for a funeral, to see a dying family member, a business meeting or a vacation.

No one boards an airplane just for the fun of boarding an airplane (except some aneters flying for free).

No one's reason for being on an airplane is more important than the next person. Everyone wanted to be on that plane for a reason.

Dying family member, honeymoon, business meeting or meeting someone from the internet.... dont play that card. It's just silly. Everyone was traveling for a reason.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-22 21:59:10 and read 14519 times.

Quoting MLD9S (Reply 22):
Oh please... stop being so dramatic.

Everyone on any airplane is flying for a reason.... whether it be for a funeral, to see a dying family member, a business meeting or a vacation.

No one boards an airplane just for the fun of boarding an airplane (except some aneters flying for free).

No one's reason for being on an airplane is more important than the next person. Everyone wanted to be on that plane for a reason.

Dying family member, honeymoon, business meeting or meeting someone from the internet.... dont play that card. It's just silly. Everyone was traveling for a reason.
Quoting MLD9S (Reply 22):
Oh please... stop being so dramatic.

Everyone on any airplane is flying for a reason.... whether it be for a funeral, to see a dying family member, a business meeting or a vacation.

No one boards an airplane just for the fun of boarding an airplane (except some aneters flying for free).

No one's reason for being on an airplane is more important than the next person. Everyone wanted to be on that plane for a reason.

Dying family member, honeymoon, business meeting or meeting someone from the internet.... dont play that card. It's just silly. Everyone was traveling for a reason.
Quoting MLD9S (Reply 22):
Oh please... stop being so dramatic.

Everyone on any airplane is flying for a reason.... whether it be for a funeral, to see a dying family member, a business meeting or a vacation.

No one boards an airplane just for the fun of boarding an airplane (except some aneters flying for free).

No one's reason for being on an airplane is more important than the next person. Everyone wanted to be on that plane for a reason.

Dying family member, honeymoon, business meeting or meeting someone from the internet.... dont play that card. It's just silly. Everyone was traveling for a reason.

Well quite right. You are clever aren't you. I see you've been thinking.

And these people, all of whom buy a ticket in a valid contract with an airline....do you think they also agree to be held ransom by rogue union staff? Put yourself in the passengers shoes for a second: would you enjoy this? Would you feel the airline failed to deliver on their contract of good service? Does your time and inconvenience mean anything to you if someone decides to simply intervene and take it?? Do you not want what you paid for?

Why people fly is a factor of living in a modern world -- but actually who these people are counts. This is why some companies have figured it all out. Who and why these people tick is import. Companies who make it work don't permit their employees to intervene in what their customers want or need. They deliver the goods. They get them moving and don't call people "dramatic" for having lives.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2012-03-22 22:15:54 and read 14663 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 23):
And these people, all of whom buy a ticket in a valid contract with an airline....do you think they also agree to be held ransom by rogue union staff? Put yourself in the passengers shoes for a second: would you enjoy this? Would you feel the airline failed to deliver on their contract of good service? Does your time and inconvenience mean anything to you if someone decides to simply intervene and take it?? Do you not want what you paid for?

Why people fly is a factor of living in a modern world -- but actually who these people are counts. This is why some companies have figured it all out. Who and why these people tick is import. Companies who make it work don't permit their employees to intervene in what their customers want or need. They deliver the goods. They get them moving and don't call people "dramatic" for having lives.

Finally someone who doesn't just consider this situation from the side of the company, unions, employees, shareholders, or even the labor minister... but from the viewpoint of the customer! Thank you!!



LD4

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-22 22:22:11 and read 14786 times.

Case in point.

I hope the minister or CLRB ends this.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2012-03-22 22:22:34 and read 14862 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 10):
Well it raises a point. When you don't care if you hurt others to achieve your own goal, whether or not it is legal or moral.....it is to teach a lesson to tell you about what my presence means......I'll teach you a lesson.......

Kinda' like when AC announced that it was locking out pilots on the Sunday of March break weekend?

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 10):
It sounds an awful lot like what terrorists believe. I'll do what I want to get my way and the hell with anyone who is affected by the negative fallout. My point is the point and you shall listen......
Quoting idjim319 (Reply 6):
Canada is being held to ransom by AC's unions who show time and time again they're only looking for more for little delivery or quality of service.

This is a constant refrain. Collective bargaining is a necessary and valuable part of our economic system, as it lessens (somewhat) the disparity in bargaining power between the employeer and employee. Particulatly when the employer is a large one like AC. Why is it a "good" thing for an employer to be able to say "we pay what we want" and "we do to you what we want"... but a horrible thing for the workers to want to stand up to that?

More importantly: the right to unionize and bargain collectively - and if necessary to strike - is a legal right in this country (notwithstanding what the current government in Ottawa thinks).

Which brings me to the point below:

Quoting sebring (Reply 19):
Tomorrow the airline will go to the Canada Labour Relations Board for an cease and desist order that will likely apply to all Toronto airport employees, on all shifts, meaning any repeat performances will lead to suspensions without pay or dismissal.

I'm sure you are right, AC will be off to the CLRB tomorrow, but as discussed elsewhere the unions have their own court application underway, to have the federal government's referal to the CLRB delcared to be a violation of their rights. I come at ths problem from a legal perspective, and I have to say that I think that the unions may have a point. There is a clear process for essential workers, who do not have the right to strike. But they do gain other rights instead (and as was recently ponited out in a debate in Toronto) these workers usually get terms that are as good or better than they might otherwise have. If the government feels that these workers are essential, then it should take the necessary action and declare them as such. But instead it is using a legal loopgole to cut off a right to strike.

And by so doing, it is setting the stage for disruption and discord going forward IMHO. A strike or actual lock out would have been hard on both sides and would have forced them back to a meaningful resolution sooner, not later.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-22 22:37:29 and read 14896 times.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 29):
Kinda' like when AC announced that it was locking out pilots on the Sunday of March break weekend?

Well I suppose AC mgmt has obligations to other groups than the pilots. Perhaps they may even be thinking about shareholders who actually have this whole thing hanging on their shoulders -- they have the finances keeping them up at night not a pilot on layover in SYD making several hundred grand. Or maybe AC management actually is trying to run an airline and deliver service that is competitive? Maybe AC realizes that, despite AC pilots belief that they are the only show in town, there are some folks in their 30s with the skills to fly a 777 and who don't need to make vast salaries for what....a diploma and several years earned? Sorry, it isn't that vast a skill set.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-03-22 22:46:14 and read 14875 times.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 1):
Good for them! While probably illegal it shows they will not be bullied by our travesty of a federal labour minister.

Agreed!

Quoting flyyul (Reply 2):
Do AC employees realize that they are putting their jobs/careers on the line with this type of behaviour?


Does AC HQ realize they are putting ALL AC jobs on the line by their inability to run a profitable carrier? It is ultimately the job of MANAGEMENT to foster a good working relationship with employees and to lead the generation of profits. Big failures here.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 6):
The labour minister has stated she notes AC's unions behave peculiarly -- they elect people to represent them then reject anything they bring back -- apparently negotiated in good faith.
Quoting whiteguy (Reply 12):
A couple ramp guys clapped sarcastically as Lisa Raitt walked by and AC corporate security, who were escorting her, grabbed them and fired them on the spot.

That's why the rest of the employees walked!

I can't believe Lisa Raitt has the audacity to fly AC during this period. She should show some respect and keep her distance from AC for the time being.

Quoting aerohottie (Reply 16):
And rightly so... it is absolutely professional misconduct to treat any customer of the company in such a manner, and they were rightly sacked on the spot (suspended I think???).

Lisa Raitt is hardly a typical customer. In one fell swoop she has denied these unionized employees the right to strike. She is union enemy #1. And for many true conservatives such as me who don't believe in governments interfering in private companies, she is a huge disappointment to us also.

Quoting sebring (Reply 19):
The company has made its final offer.

There is no obligation in labour law to keep giving, giving and giving to the union.
Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 29):
Collective bargaining is a necessary and valuable part of our economic system, as it lessens (somewhat) the disparity in bargaining power between the employeer and employee.
Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 29):
the right to unionize and bargain collectively - and if necessary to strike - is a legal right in this country (notwithstanding what the current government in Ottawa thinks).

Well said YYZYYT. Right on the mark. Let AC employees strike if they want.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-22 22:56:37 and read 14801 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
Right on the mark. Let AC employees strike if they want.

Probably the most inconsistent thing you've posted. In one breathe you say how AC is so inefficient and lazy. Now you want them to strike?? Yes I have no doubt YUL knows the risks. There are MANY non union employees who have worked their asses off this past year during the labour mayhem. There are many who busted their humps when the agents decided they need to strike. Literally days and nights in support of the operation and customer service. These are the ones and only ones who deserve job security.

Excuse me? Lisa Raitt is a customer full stop. FULL STOP! How much did her flight cost? How rude. Clearly WJ doesn't provide the service she wants so she flies AC. She deserves less service for her fare?? There you go.... you can see this brain power in action. Don't ever take that attitude that a customer is inferior. This is exactly the issue. The customer IS the issue.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: whiteguy
Posted 2012-03-22 23:00:05 and read 14799 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 31):
they have the finances keeping them up at night not a pilot on layover in SYD making several hundred grand.

Or making sure Calin gets his $5 million bonus at the end of March!

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
I can't believe Lisa Raitt has the audacity to fly AC during this period. She should show some respect and keep her distance from AC for the time being.

She has no respect, prime example is accepting an upgrade from Duncan Dee after forcing the FAs back to work!

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
Does AC HQ realize they are putting ALL AC jobs on the line by their inability to run a profitable carrier? It is ultimately the job of MANAGEMENT to foster a good working relationship with employees and to lead the generation of profits. Big failures here.

  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: saloman
Posted 2012-03-22 23:02:09 and read 14745 times.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 29):
More importantly: the right to unionize and bargain collectively - and if necessary to strike - is a legal right in this country (notwithstanding what the current government in Ottawa thinks).

Not quite. The leading reference case on the issue "Reference re Public Service Employee Relations Act (Alta.)" ruled that there was no charter right to strike. So while you may not agree with the Federal Govt's action, it is lawful.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-22 23:13:59 and read 14711 times.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 36):

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 31):
they have the finances keeping them up at night not a pilot on layover in SYD making several hundred grand.

Or making sure Calin gets his $5 million bonus at the end of March!

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
I can't believe Lisa Raitt has the audacity to fly AC during this period. She should show some respect and keep her distance from AC for the time being.

She has no respect, prime example is accepting an upgrade from Duncan Dee after forcing the FAs back to work!

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
Does AC HQ realize they are putting ALL AC jobs on the line by their inability to run a profitable carrier? It is ultimately the job of MANAGEMENT to foster a good working relationship with employees and to lead the generation of profits. Big failures here.

Well I'll give it to you frankly, the job of management is to turn a profit on the enterprise. They hardly manage that don't you think. Do you really believe giving a massive pay raise to anyone in that company will result in massive profit increases?? I used to work for AC in a union and will tell you frankly that paying more will only lead to more losses. There is no hope.....I once had an agent refuse to push a wheelchair because she also had a purse....too much weight.

I once, in the legacy of Canadian Airlines...announced he was boarding the flight by religion. Nope. No chance of discipline. The union protection wouldn't allow that. BTW... that was CP!


How do you run an airline. .... Pilots who delay flights because they don't like the choice of their hot meals, not enough fruit or water for inflight staff, not good enough meals for pilots who are drafted, ramp guys who are too busy in the lunch room to receive a flight from overseas that comes early because it wasn't scheduled.


How do you run a business. How?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: whiteguy
Posted 2012-03-22 23:18:34 and read 14691 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 35):
There are MANY non union employees who have worked their asses off this past year during the labour mayhem.

And there are many union employees that have busted their butts for years for the company. Yet most of these employees are labelled as lazy union employees! Yes there are a few bad apples but they are the minority.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 35):
There are many who busted their humps when the agents decided they need to strike. Literally days and nights in support of the operation and customer service. These are the ones and only ones who deserve job security.

Yeah they literally worked 2 days in support of the operation. So they are the only ones that deserve job security? AC agents are doing the job every single day, yet they don't deserve job protection???? That's rich!!!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2012-03-22 23:20:31 and read 14677 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
''profitable'', ''MANAGEMENT'', ''employees'', ''generation of profits'', ''Lisa Raitt'', ''unionized employees'', ''union enemy #1'', ''giving to the union.'', ''Let AC employees strike if they want.''

Neil,
Where have you been for the last three hours?

Note the keywords quoted above and compare with what I posted in reply 27:

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 27):
Finally someone who doesn't just consider this situation from the side of the company, unions, employees, shareholders, or even the labor minister... but from the viewpoint of the customer!

It is only idjim319 that gets it????

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 23):
And these people, all of whom buy a ticket in a valid contract with an airline....do you think they also agree to be held ransom by rogue union staff? Put yourself in the passengers shoes for a second: would you enjoy this? Would you feel the airline failed to deliver on their contract of good service? Does your time and inconvenience mean anything to you if someone decides to simply intervene and take it?? Do you not want what you paid for?

Why people fly is a factor of living in a modern world -- but actually who these people are counts. This is why some companies have figured it all out. Who and why these people tick is import. Companies who make it work don't permit their employees to intervene in what their customers want or need. They deliver the goods. They get them moving and don't call people "dramatic" for having lives.

LD4

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2012-03-22 23:33:12 and read 14623 times.

Just my 02 cents and leaving Management, Unions, negotiations and Lisa Raitt out of it, but if I'm understanding this correctly, a couple of yahoos acted inappropriately and unprofessional, they get disciplined and then more yahoos stage illegal work stoppage in response to the suspensions? If that's the case, not only should the strikees be losing their jobs but they had better be banned from the Union as well. I could understand a wildcat strike in response to the Government stepping in and passing some legislation, but taking illegal action to support employees that screwed up, unacceptable.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: whiteguy
Posted 2012-03-22 23:33:42 and read 14606 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 38):
How do you run an airline. .... Pilots who delay flights because they don't like the choice of their hot meals, not enough fruit or water for inflight staff, not good enough meals for pilots who are drafted, ramp guys who are too busy in the lunch room to receive a flight from overseas that comes early because it wasn't scheduled.

Everything you have listed is rumored to have happened before but they are few and far between. Don't make it sound like stuff that happens on a regular basis.

There are many examples of employees going above and beyond in their job but you don't hear about it. Why? Because that airplane is clean, their bag did make it's 2 min connect, their flight was on time, the crew went past their duty day by 15 mins......

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-22 23:35:42 and read 14612 times.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 39):
And there are many union employees that have busted their butts for years for the company. Yet most of these employees are labelled as lazy union employees! Yes there are a few bad apples but they are the minority.

Well, I suggest to you here and now!..this is the time. I agree. I worked my bloody ass off in pride only to be outdone by a slacker who lowered the bar for us all! Stand up and tell your union then, not me. Yup for sure most AC employees are great but the unions shelter some really bad, bad staff. These folks just walked off the job and undermined everyone's job security.


Yes there are a few bad apples, but until the laws change, AC cannot get rid of them. SPEAK UP! I thank god now I'm not unionized, I had to leave the company. If I were still at AC I'd be giving hell to my union to get its act together.

I remember working a flight with the best staff in the world. I was a purser and every FA pulled it out. I had the most amazing compliments coming to me as I walked around at the end. It was solely down to staff. I defy you to compare that to the flight I had with hags who dragged garbage bags through the aisle throwing trays in the garbage and daring me to report them.... I had no recourse....they were union and their attitude....f'off.

You tell me.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: kfitz
Posted 2012-03-22 23:40:53 and read 14603 times.

Good for them. The company has been sliming them for years now.

Those playing the sympathy card should get real.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: VonRichtofen
Posted 2012-03-22 23:41:19 and read 14631 times.

Wow this is embarrassing....

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2012-03-22 23:48:54 and read 14597 times.

Quoting kfitz (Reply 44):
Good for them. The company has been sliming them for years now.

Those playing the sympathy card should get real.

You should read the link provided in reply 15 so you understand why some employees walked off the job. If anyone should get real, its the strikees.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 45):
Wow this is embarrassing....

  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-22 23:56:06 and read 14544 times.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 46):
You should read the link provided in reply 15 so you understand why some employees walked off the job. If anyone should get real, its the strikees.

Anyone who went on strike should ... and I hope..... will lose their job. There's really no excuse for a ramp guy behaving this way unless he/she has a massive share in the company. Done. There's no excuse to defy the entity who pays your wages and from whom you accept money. The contract is done. Goodbye. If you're prepared to accept the pay deposit in your account then you're prepared to work to earn it. There's really no need to argue details.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: kfitz
Posted 2012-03-23 00:12:00 and read 14488 times.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 46):

Good for them. I applaud them.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2012-03-23 00:57:39 and read 14392 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
Lisa Raitt is hardly a typical customer.

Whether typical or not she deserves the same respect as my 92-year old Grandma. These hosers are lucky they only got suspended. The others even refused their own union's order to come back to work. I hope the union AND AC bring down the hammer.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2012-03-23 01:33:07 and read 14271 times.

Quoting kfitz (Reply 48):
Good for them. I applaud them.


So, you applaud employees who take illegal work stoppage in support towards other employees that screwed up and are being appropriately disciplined? Investigating and possibly filing grievances is what the Union is there for, not wildcat strikes or any strike for that matter. Let the Union do its job and get back to yours.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 47):
Anyone who went on strike should ... and I hope..... will lose their job.


And as I posted earlier, should be banned from the Union as well. Even if they were trying to make a point because Lisa Raitt was there, this is not the way it should be done. Start demonstrations, start petitions, start getting the public on your side, start informing the public how this kind of legislation effects them and themselves, but for the love of God, don't piss off the people you are trying to garnish support from.

It'll be quite interesting to see what the Union comes up for a statement, if they stand behind it or condone it.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 49):
Whether typical or not she deserves the same respect as my 92-year old Grandma. These hosers are lucky they only got suspended. The others even refused their own union's order to come back to work. I hope the union AND AC bring down the hammer.

 checkmark 

[Edited 2012-03-23 01:36:14]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2012-03-23 01:48:31 and read 14214 times.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 3):
What choice did they have?

How about the choice of getting another job if they are unhappy with the terms of their existing one?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2012-03-23 03:33:53 and read 14117 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 51):
How about the choice of getting another job if they are unhappy with the terms of their existing one?

Have you ever seen the reaction you get from a Union Thumper when you tell them where the door is or if they don't like their new contract that they have other options for employment? Its an expression that you'll never forget and involves shades of red one has never seen before  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: YOWVIEWER
Posted 2012-03-23 04:17:27 and read 14023 times.

Well, after all the threads on the AC debacle on this site, reading so much from both sides of the story, and this morning hearing the massive "roars" of support from the strikers at Pearson to any pilots, flight attendants, etc. that may walk past it is now time to "shut 'er down" boys & girls. Such bad blood is now well beyond repair, and at the point that you would have to be crazy to even book a flight with AC out of fear it will never leave the ground.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-03-23 04:52:05 and read 13958 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 35):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
Right on the mark. Let AC employees strike if they want.

Probably the most inconsistent thing you've posted. In one breathe you say how AC is so inefficient and lazy. Now you want them to strike??

Yes, all unionized employees deserve the right to strike. i hate unions but we all must respect the collective bargaining process.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 35):
Excuse me? Lisa Raitt is a customer full stop. FULL STOP! How much did her flight cost? How rude.

Her flight was paid by the tax payers and by flying AC now, she is personally fanning the flames of AC union discontent.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 38):
How do you run a business. How?

Don't ask AC management. They don't know.

Well, this event leaves WS as the largest network carrier with mission specific hubs flying as usual at YYZ and YUL. A great opportunity for AC customers to experience Westjet and Porter and AA and DL and.......

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: jamincan
Posted 2012-03-23 05:00:14 and read 13921 times.

I agree with YOWVIEWER. The bad blood is so obvious, I find it hard to believe that a working relationship with employees can ever be restored at AC. This is a failure of both management and employees.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: YYZatcboy
Posted 2012-03-23 05:04:14 and read 13926 times.

According to the Toronto Star they are still on strike this morning with over 100 flights affected.

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/...-at-toronto-s-pearson-airport?bn=1

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: YOWza
Posted 2012-03-23 05:10:29 and read 13876 times.

This infantile strike is just another sad blemish on AC in the eyes of the flying public. Let's hope sanity prevails... I'm supposed to be flying AC001 today. So far it's showing as on time but who knows.

YOWza

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: swissy
Posted 2012-03-23 05:26:00 and read 13820 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 51):
How about the choice of getting another job if they are unhappy with the terms of their existing one

Because 99% of them would not last a day or 2  

Also you need both parties to make it work or not....

Cheerios,

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: WestJet747
Posted 2012-03-23 06:13:34 and read 13329 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
I can't believe Lisa Raitt has the audacity to fly AC during this period. She should show some respect and keep her distance from AC for the time being.

Does the government not have a preferred employee travel contract with Air Canada? I know my company does, and if we so choose to travel with another airline for business purposes, we're out-of-pocket.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
She is union enemy #1.

Not according to the union who has been spewing all along that management is the devil.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 49):
These hosers are lucky they only got suspended.

Excellent use of classic Canadian slang   

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 54):
A great opportunity for AC customers to experience Westjet and Porter and AA and DL and.......



I'm hearing that a lot of customer are flocking to US because they are a Star partner...but I'm certain Saretsky and Deluce are laughing all the way to the bank today

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: bmacleod
Posted 2012-03-23 06:13:42 and read 13335 times.

This should be the beginning of the end of airline unions. Overpaid crybabies who keep wanting more.

I wouldn't be surprised if AC tries to eliminate the baggage handler's union. This is going way too far.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2012-03-23 06:28:11 and read 13133 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 54):
A great opportunity for AC customers to experience Westjet and Porter and AA and DL and.......

... still not be able to get to many destinations which are only served by AC. How many times have you been informed of this now on a.net? Likely hundreds...



LD4

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2012-03-23 07:09:42 and read 12687 times.

AC needs to go bust.

How long is the government going to keep afloat something that clearly can't swim.

If this is what it takes to make that happen, then so be it.

No pain, no gain !

Nuff said.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: pnwtraveler
Posted 2012-03-23 08:14:58 and read 11948 times.

All ordered back to work by the Arbitrator. And union has confirmed they have returned to work. Watch for penalties now to be levied. No matter what action is undergoing between a union and a company, the labour law is pretty clear about the duties of an employee. Polls show that the general public perception of Unions is at a very low point and showing no signs of improving and actions such as this might play well to fellow union members but has also has a big role in general public opinion.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-03-23 08:20:44 and read 11866 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 48):
Her flight was paid by the tax payers and by flying AC now, she is personally fanning the flames of AC union discontent.

It appears to be a huge conflict of interest. Were her actions with regard to dealing with Air Canada in the best interest of the country and her constituents ... or were they because she had a deposit down on a vacation she would lose were Air Canada to go on strike?

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 54):
I wouldn't be surprised if AC tries to eliminate the baggage handler's union. This is going way too far.

This has been AC's intent for a very long time.

One of the issues raised during the pilot negotiations was that only the pilots have a scope clause, not Agents, F/As, Rampies, etc. So if AC were to start a Jetstar type operation, it would not be to save costs with regards to pilots, but with other employee groups, that could be argued are paid above standard airline salary.

The pessimistic stated that the main reason the Rampies were offered so much in the last round of negotiations was because AC knew they wouldn't be around in a years time.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: q120
Posted 2012-03-23 09:31:25 and read 11146 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 48):
Yes, all unionized employees deserve the right to strike. i hate unions but we all must respect the collective bargaining process.

I agree. Air Canada should respect the pensions at least.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ANM604
Posted 2012-03-23 10:17:38 and read 10662 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 58):
It appears to be a huge conflict of interest. Were her actions with regard to dealing with Air Canada in the best interest of the country and her constituents ... or were they because she had a deposit down on a vacation she would lose were Air Canada to go on strike?

Does it really matter? The employees in question acted extremely unprofessional, and regardless, she is a customer, and should NOT be treated that way; No one should. You let them get away with this, and maybe they'll do it again to someone else they don't like. If AC were to allow this to happen, it would start a dangerous precedent.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 43):
Whether typical or not she deserves the same respect as my 92-year old Grandma. These hosers are lucky they only got suspended. The others even refused their own union's order to come back to work. I hope the union AND AC bring down the hammer.

Exactly.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 45):
How about the choice of getting another job if they are unhappy with the terms of their existing one?

Good luck finding one in the real world as overly compensated as the one they current have.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 58):
So if AC were to start a Jetstar type operation, it would not be to save costs with regards to pilots, but with other employee groups, that could be argued are paid above standard airline salary.

IE like West Jet does. Contract out the ramp services to the low bidder, that would save a good chunk of money for AC.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: captaingomes
Posted 2012-03-23 10:47:43 and read 10409 times.

This wildcat strike is extremely unprofessional and shameful. However, while I disagree with it, I really can't blame the employees completely as it is more clear evidence of the toxic environment in which they work. Management absolutely needs to work on building employee relations, and working towards long-term sustainability. Unless of course their goal is to go through CCAA again which is entirely plausible.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: 9252fly
Posted 2012-03-23 11:08:35 and read 10233 times.

Quoting captaingomes (Reply 61):
Management absolutely needs to work on building employee relations, and working towards long-term sustainability. Unless of course their goal is to go through CCAA again which is entirely plausible.

As much as I do agree with you,too much damage may have already been done in so far as rebuilding employer/employee relations. I have an odd feeling that AC has their finger twitching on the CCAA trigger.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: WestJet747
Posted 2012-03-23 11:20:34 and read 10129 times.

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 62):
As much as I do agree with you,too much damage may have already been done in so far as rebuilding employer/employee relations. I have an odd feeling that AC has their finger twitching on the CCAA trigger.

I think it's absolutely reparable...but only if they take Calin's $5 mil bonus and use it on hiring some consultants who know a thing or two about culture. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the MBBs have already offered their expensive service to Air Canada.

My uncle used to work as a Chief Restructuring Officer and consulted many other companies in situations like AC's, and he strongly believes that you can turn around any company, and given his track record I tend to believe him.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-03-23 11:20:54 and read 10141 times.

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 62):
I have an odd feeling that AC has their finger twitching on the CCAA trigger.

With over $2B cash on hand, the reason behind it would be a hard one to prove.

And ... it doesn't solve anything. CCAA only allows a company to defer payments while restructuring debt. It is not a way to keep employees you like, toss the ones you don't, erase pensions of the groups you like and keep your own .. oh yeah, and still get your $5M bonus at the end of the month.

In my opinion CCAA is usually the result of Management errors, not employee problems. Unlike Chapter 11 in the United States, CCAA can only change employee contracts and pensions if the employee agrees.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 60):
Does it really matter? The employees in question acted extremely unprofessional, and regardless, she is a customer, and should NOT be treated that way; No one should.

That was not a judgement nor justification of the employees' actions, it was more an assessment of Ms. Raitt herself.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: captaingomes
Posted 2012-03-23 11:20:59 and read 10127 times.

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 62):

Yup, gone too far down the crapper. It's sad to see.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: BridYYC
Posted 2012-03-23 11:28:02 and read 10056 times.

I am no fan of unions but even less a fan of government taking away rights of Canadians. I don't want to turn this into a political discussion but the current government has shown little regard for basic rights and has already sought to remove internet privacy from all Canadians and now the rights of Air Canada workers. Worse, they quickly demonize those who stand up to them.

Yes, the wildcat strike and a full scale strike inconveniences customers. That's part of what a strike is. The union tries to hurt the company to motivate the company to offer more. I don't like it and I fly Air Canada and hate the effects on customers. But I accept it as a part of the employees right to do that. A government, or a company that can easily take away your rights on one front won't have a problem taking them away on others.

At the end of the day as others have stated, there are deep issues between Air Canada management and staff. Removing their rights isn't helping the matter and even when a new agreement is forged, those issues remain. Air Canada has some serious work to do to mend those divisions. Work that doesn't exist within the pages of a collective agreement. And as a customer, I don't see them doing that. This doesn't bode well for the long term quality and success of Air Canada.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: 9252fly
Posted 2012-03-23 11:31:18 and read 10039 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 64):
With over $2B cash on hand, the reason behind it would be a hard one to prove.

True,then again AA had a lot more cash on hand;like AC,it's liabilities exceeding the cash that drove them over the edge.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: lychemsa
Posted 2012-03-23 11:35:10 and read 9996 times.

Air Canada's management don't understand how to treat their customers; this also applies to the way they treat their employees.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: multimark
Posted 2012-03-23 12:27:45 and read 9600 times.

Air Canada management, Lisa Raitt and the Harper Conservatives are reaping exactly what they have sown. By removing employees legal right to strike they have left no other options. Why AC management thought a strike would be worse than this ongoing debacle is incomprehensible. AC is not essential to the nation's well being as the government claimed.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: challengerdan
Posted 2012-03-23 13:10:26 and read 9207 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 64):
CCAA can only change employee contracts and pensions if the employee agrees.


Not exactly. IIRC the difference being that under us CH11, you can void CBAs during the judicial procedure. In Canada, under the CCAA you can force CBAs through arbitration that are considered in the best interest of both parties considering the goal is to have a sustainable corporation. ALL AC unions still have some 2003 era CCAA language in their CBAs, and that includes RIP Aveos, Chorus (AKA Jazz) and Aeroplan.

And please, to all those that think all the employees from AC are out of line. Consider the Facts. Vulture capital firms, Senior Executives and investment bank have been using AC as an ATM, for more than C$4.5B since CCAA. Management has the most wicked relation with its union seen in recent history, awarding themselves Sweet Bonuses (Milton got 80M in 9 years, he still charged 400K last year in consulting fees ! Rovinescu will receive 5M at the end of this month, and the results of his plan are still unclear) in reward for legal but morally questionable moves with the share-holders interest being the only driving factor.

What happened to leading by example? What happened to sharing the pain? What happened to being in the same boat?
Ever wondered why you don't ear any issues of that magnitude at WJ for example? Maybe because management actually cares? How come the employees, even when paid less, agree to be more productive? Maybe because they feel good about themselves, because management actually give a "#$% about them and rewards and values employees going above and beyond?

The travelling public is ?&?$ right now, they feel like "hostages". I understand. And sure that all employees that walked out really do have some sympathy for your inconvenience. They know how it is to earn a living and try spending their hard earned money in the best possible way. This is not directed against you. Is is against the government that step in without the real intention of solving the issue. The government feels AC is essential to the Canadian economy? Make them essential service and treat them accordingly. AC is a private company? So let them do what they have to do, in accordance with the law. You can't have it both ways. It is directed against Senior Management that feels it is alright to cut wages and benefits while rewarding themselves with bonuses and keeping the Corporation always on the verge of unprofitability for the last 10 years.

In the end what's in the interest of the travelling public? Make no mistake: recent history has shown at AC that even if they would actually get rid "of all lazy, overpaid and bitching" union employees within their organization, the only one who would benefit from the cost cutting would the shareholders. They would still be charging 1500$ for a 700KM flight segment. Why? because they are the only ones servicing it so they can.
Supply and demand some will say.
I agree.
Supply and demand also applies in collective bargaining though. The unions are trying to get a part of the supply of money back to them: after all, THEY are the ones who make it happen. Why should it be a one way street? Why should the employee always make the sacrifice?

In short, are the union putting AC at risk with their behavior? I certainly think so. But maybe in the interest of Canadians this Airline could be started from scratch. Fire Senior management, turn the thing around, eventually with the right people at the top, you could have a cultural change. With the current figures up there, not gonna happen.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-03-23 13:38:27 and read 8968 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 4):

Management reached tentative agreement with every single union! Every-time it reached the membership it was voted down. This occurred 2 times with CUPE (flight attendants).

Ok, I thought union leaders always represented their membership and any agreement reached had to be voted on by the membership, so ........

Quoting aerohottie (Reply 16):
And rightly so... it is absolutely professional misconduct to treat any customer of the company in such a manner, and they were rightly sacked on the spot (suspended I think???). It is entirely inappropriate to display personal political actions while being employed to carry out professional tasks on behalf of the employer.

Ok, if that's your believe then the same should apply to the folks below.

Quoting aerohottie (Reply 16):
So they are sulking because the company upheld a minimum professional standard???...
A standard of professional conduct which is clearly communicated to staff and agreed to when an offer of employment is accepted...
Quoting Skydrol (Reply 17):
Would instantly terminating employment of those involved in this wildcat strike send the correct message to other Air Canada employees?

At least a suspension like what was done to the first 3 employees should be in order, right?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: saloman
Posted 2012-03-23 13:40:49 and read 8974 times.

Quoting multimark (Reply 69):
By removing employees legal right to strike they have left no other options

I repeat:

Quoting saloman (Reply 31):
The leading reference case on the issue "Reference re Public Service Employee Relations Act (Alta.)" ruled that there was no charter right to strike. So while you may not agree with the Federal Govt's action, it is lawful.

The funniest part about this whole discussion is that while people here argue and debate who's right, who's wrong - the general public that I've heard talking about this don't differentiate. Workers are striking, their plans get screwed up, and the end result is financial armageddon for the airline because an AC ticket doesn't guarantee you a flight these days. That will hurt shareholders as well as workers.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: swissy
Posted 2012-03-23 13:59:15 and read 8809 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 58):
The pessimistic stated that the main reason the Rampies were offered so much in the last round of negotiations was because AC knew they wouldn't be around in a years time.

  

You are right... have worked behind the "curtains" on that exact scenario a few years back @ YYZ... Everyone thinking AC management does not have a brain is sadly mistaken  , the unions fail to see that far...

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 60):
IE like West Jet does. Contract out the ramp services to the low bidder, that would save a good chunk of money for AC.

They are unionized too, cost wise? sure way less $ per man hr. but it creates other issues.... guess they would have to figure out what way is the lesser evil  
Quoting BridYYC (Reply 66):
I am no fan of unions but even less a fan of government taking away rights of Canadians. I don't want to turn this into a political discussion but the current government has shown little regard for basic rights and has already sought to remove internet privacy from all Canadians and now the rights of Air Canada workers. Worse, they quickly demonize those who stand up to them.

Neither I am... have not seen any union saving jobs... What about my rights? I have to travel to places and AC is MY partner helping me getting there... and what, just because of some clowns who have the freedom to work somewhere else if they do not like it at AC chose to screw everyone over because they have labour/personal issues???

All I can say is: Thank you Canadian government for protecting my rights...

YYZ labour relations are down the drain for a very long time and it is not just a problem AC has, go have a look at T3 what is going on over there... same bs  

Hey there is an idea!!! how about GTAA is providing all terminal/ground manpower.... oh forgot, that was a different project/idea that was on the table  

Cheerios,

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: kfitz
Posted 2012-03-23 15:09:04 and read 8216 times.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 44):

Yes I do applaud them especially when those attempting to malaign and slander them are those with anti-union biases like yourself who I have little doubt supported the legislation passed. I don't care for your character attacks on these workers simply because you can't stand unions and can't deal with their audacity to...clap... to the represive legislation. Give me a break

[Edited 2012-03-23 15:12:03]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-03-23 15:24:55 and read 8070 times.

Quoting swissy (Reply 73):
What about my rights? I have to travel to places and AC is MY partner helping me getting there... and what, just because of some clowns who have the freedom to work somewhere else if they do not like it at AC chose to screw everyone over because they have labour/personal issues???

To be honest, I don't condone what happened. The workers did behave unprofessionally, no matter how morally justified they think they are in doing what they did. ACs corporate security didn't help itself by escalating the situation instead of defusing it.

That said, unless you were flying AC to one of those AC-only destinations, you made a choice. You have a right to make a choice. You don't have the right to expect the choice to work out regardless of the circumstances. In AC's case, the circumstances have been known for months now.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-03-23 15:59:32 and read 7798 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 75):

To be honest, I don't condone what happened. The workers did behave unprofessionally, no matter how morally justified they think they are in doing what they did. ACs corporate security didn't help itself by escalating the situation instead of defusing it.

Exactly my point. IMO strikes do more harm than good. AC honestly could've just found replacement ramp workers instead of dealing with unions, but that is just my blunt observation. I don't know how your labor minister is up there in Canada, much less understand labor laws.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 75):

That said, unless you were flying AC to one of those AC-only destinations, you made a choice. You have a right to make a choice. You don't have the right to expect the choice to work out regardless of the circumstances. In AC's case, the circumstances have been known for months now.

And why they didn't act on them when they had the chance, we might never know.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: Superman24
Posted 2012-03-23 16:00:17 and read 7830 times.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 1):
Good for them! While probably illegal it shows they will not be bullied by our travesty of a federal labour minister.

Yes, Thank you Air canada employees for ruining other peoples vacation. This is a big problem with unions. They think they can get anything and everything they want and not be penalized or fired because of there actions. Shame on you!!!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-03-23 16:38:04 and read 7560 times.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 70):
Milton got 80M in 9 years, he still charged 400K last year in consulting fees !

Milton received $400K in 2011 from AC for consulting? What was the value/service provided?

Incidently, why was the first E190 delivered registered C-GWEN? Who is Gwen?

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 70):
Rovinescu will receive 5M at the end of this month

For WHAT?

Quoting multimark (Reply 69):
Air Canada management, Lisa Raitt and the Harper Conservatives are reaping exactly what they have sown. By removing employees legal right to strike they have left no other options. Why AC management thought a strike would be worse than this ongoing debacle is incomprehensible. AC is not essential to the nation's well being as the government claimed.

Beautiful statement.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 75):
unless you were flying AC to one of those AC-only destinations, you made a choice.

Youre right.

Quoting Superman24 (Reply 77):
Thank you Air canada employees for ruining other peoples vacation.

Nope. These people ruined their OWN vacations. WHO is their right mind would even CONSIDER flying AC these days? Anyone who VOLUNTARILY buys an AC ticket (and let's face it, no one is forced to) has no one to blame but themselves for missed flights, connections, lost luggage, etc.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: Oroka
Posted 2012-03-23 17:01:29 and read 7432 times.

10 years from now

Air Canada (Operated by WestJet).

They are cutting thier own throats. You dont like what you are getting paid, get a new job, dont hold a company for ransom. There is a strike that shuts down Air Canada pretty much every other year. I avoid Air Canada whenever I can.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: nonfirm
Posted 2012-03-23 17:06:08 and read 7369 times.

If the company was not so cut throat with it's employee's this type of action would not be needed.Good for them for walking off as a solid group.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: United727
Posted 2012-03-23 17:08:04 and read 7367 times.

Any updates on whats happening with the employees or the AC OPS??

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: 747-600X
Posted 2012-03-23 17:39:21 and read 7126 times.

I'm amazed at how outraged the majority of posters here are towards the striking workers. I don't know about in Canada, but in the U.S., one cannot simply go out and get another job if the one one currently has doesn't pay well enough. Also, I haven't seen any mention of what the core issue behind the strike was, so all of these posts lack any semblance of context. Would you think it inappropriate if they walked out on the job if they were faced with drastic wage reductions? Probably not.

So, the two questions that should be asked are: Why did they walk out? (What were the terms and conditions they were offered or subjected to that they felt were unfair?) and Why did they feel that they had no other choice?

The articles I've read clearly indicate that the Union was not behind this move; it was the employees acting on their own. This is not surprising; in the U.S. - for example - there is often open hostility between union members and the union itself where airport employees are concerned. Employees of ground-handling companies and airlines pay dues to the union, and therefore sometimes feel robbed if their interests are not represented. If the union agrees to concessions or what the employees feel are subpar wage increases or benefits, they now have two enemies: the company, and the union. Combined with the potential illegality of a cold-turkey strike, the employees can feel utterly disenfranchised and out of options. At that point, it makes perfect sense for them to say, "Fine! You think you can do whatever you want to us? Well, fair's fair, so we're gonna do whatever we want to you!" and march out the door.

But beneath all that, fundamentally, there's nothing unethical taking place here. If you get a job making, say, $15 an hour, and a year later you're told that you're only going to get $10 an hour (obviously an exaggerated example) and you say, "I can't live on that" then, if all the negotiating and dealing winds up only getting you $11 an hour, why shouldn't you walk off the job? If they fire you, you're gone. If they don't, it's just a strike. Either way, if you - the employee - feel that the union has done a disservice by agreeing to unacceptable terms and the company has only made the matter worse, then frankly, I can't understand how legislation can exist which says that you have to keep going to work if you choose not to. As for the people stranded on the plane, well, that's just hard to imagine. Sitting in an airplane seat. Sitting there. Suffering. Miserable. Wretched. Sitting in that airplane seat. Sounds terrible...

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: challengerdan
Posted 2012-03-23 17:45:01 and read 7078 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 78):
Quoting challengerdan (Reply 70):
Milton got 80M in 9 years, he still charged 400K last year in consulting fees !

Milton received $400K in 2011 from AC for consulting? What was the value/service provided?

That, my friend, is an excellent question, to which I don't have an answer, but here is my source:
http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/air...s-arbitration-while-210346055.html
..."Milton also collected some $80 million over his tenure at both companies even though Air Canada has not been consistently profitable."
...

"Meanwhile, ACE said Milton earned $441,232 in consulting fees and airline travel allowance in 2011, compared with $525,000 in 2010.

The former chief executive of Air Canada received $14.7 million in 2009. The amount included $13.9 million in the form of $5 million incentive award as part of his employment contract and stock options in lieu of severance and retirement benefits.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 78):

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 70):
Rovinescu will receive 5M at the end of this month

For WHAT?

I guess they didn't expect AC would last that long, (from the same article):
... "Particularly galling is that Air Canada CEO Calin Rovinescu stands to receive a $5-million retention bonus next month after just three years at the helm, Strachan added."

Public corporations.... public information..... but the public doesn't want the information.....

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: YYZYYT
Posted 2012-03-23 21:23:04 and read 6182 times.

Quoting saloman (Reply 37):
Not quite. The leading reference case on the issue "Reference re Public Service Employee Relations Act (Alta.)" ruled that there was no charter right to strike. So while you may not agree with the Federal Govt's action, it is lawful.
Quoting saloman (Reply 72):
I repeat:

Quoting saloman (Reply 31):The leading reference case on the issue "Reference re Public Service Employee Relations Act (Alta.)" ruled that there was no charter right to strike. So while you may not agree with the Federal Govt's action, it is lawful.

That case is from1985, and a LOT has changed since then re the court's approach to charter litigation; moreover the challenge is as much about rights under the CLC (my mis-statemenet above). I hardly think this one is so clear (but this is not a legal debate, so I will leave it at that).

Quoting 747-600X (Reply 82):
I'm amazed at how outraged the majority of posters here are towards the striking workers. I don't know about in Canada, but in the U.S., one cannot simply go out and get another job if the one one currently has doesn't pay well enough. Also, I haven't seen any mention of what the core issue behind the strike was, so all of these posts lack any semblance of context. Would you think it inappropriate if they walked out on the job if they were faced with drastic wage reductions? Probably not.

So, the two questions that should be asked are: Why did they walk out? (What were the terms and conditions they were offered or subjected to that they felt were?) and Why did they feel that they had no other choice?

The very short answer, from all that I can tell (as an interested outsider, give or take a little scuttlebutt from employees I happen to know... and other reliable sources) is that the labour relations situation at AC is an unholy mess, and has been since the last bankruptcy. And this latest foray by the federal government will only make that bad situation worse.

And re the outrage you refer to, not everybody is outraged... only a vocal minority who seem to think that any union action is about unions holding everyone hostage. There are many (a silent majority, to borrow a phrase?) who understand the need for this process to work itself out, whether or not they are inclined to a union or management point of view. I for one don't blame the unions because such situations are as often as not caused by management's choices and decisions (as in this case, IMHO).

And - for the record - I have felt the pain as a member of the travelling public.. I was nearly stranded in Frankfurt in 1999 due to a pilot strike (or maybe lock-out...), but managed to move my ticket to a LH flight at the last minute. In 2010, I was relying on Jazz, who were touch-and-go because of an FA strike mandate, to commute to a work assignment. I had alternate ground transportation on stand-by on the weekend that the strike was to start. And numerous other instances in a non-AC situation.

But the unions had to do what they felt right, and I support their right to do so.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ANM604
Posted 2012-03-23 22:00:24 and read 6138 times.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 70):
Supply and demand also applies in collective bargaining though. The unions are trying to get a part of the supply of money back to them: after all, THEY are the ones who make it happen. Why should it be a one way street? Why should the employee always make the sacrifice?

Sacrifices? Like the wage increases they were offered? Or a medical/dental plan that is well above what most Canadians have? Or the pensions? Or the flight benefits? Come on! The door is always open if it's really that bad, sadly I don't see too many taking it though.

Quoting swissy (Reply 73):
They are unionized too, cost wise? sure way less $ per man hr. but it creates other issues.

WS isn't unionized, and at least at some of their substations they contract their ramp out to other companies for much less then what it costs to have their own operation.

Quoting kfitz (Reply 74):
can't deal with their audacity to...clap... to the represive legislation. Give me a break

While I'm not going to post an exact transcript of what transpired, it was definitely more then clapping. You really think these guys just happened to see Lisa Raitt walking through the terminal? Yeah right.....

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 78):
Beautiful statement.

Once again, where exactly is their "legal right" to strike?

Quoting 747-600X (Reply 82):
Would you think it inappropriate if they walked out on the job if they were faced with drastic wage reductions? Probably not.

Except that they weren't being offfered ANY wage cuts. They were offered in the range of 9%-11% wage increases, a far cry from the song the union is singing. These guys have it made, and they know it, but they keep wanting more more more. Why don't you ask the Swissport workers how much their compensation is, just so everyone on here can get a dose of reality.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 83):
Meanwhile, ACE said Milton earned $441,232 in consulting fees and airline travel allowance in 2011, compared with $525,000 in 2010.

What does this have to do with anything? In case you didn't realize, ACE Aviation is a separate company from Air Canada. They own about 11% of AC's shares and that's it. If you have a problem with his salary take it up with ACE, because AC has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and in case you were wondering, Clive Beddoe from WS has gotten about $63 million in compensation from WS, does that make him like Milton?. I encourage you to read a circular, and see how they base executive compensation, as AC's compensation is compared to other companies of comparable size. Whether or not Calin deserves it is a different thing.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: AY104
Posted 2012-03-23 22:52:43 and read 6100 times.

This quote, from a passenger affected by the walkout - on CBC News - says it all, far as I am concerned:

"We can't continue to have government interfering in these ways and breaking the backs of unions. This is about workers' rights, and I totally support this. If I have to wait in this airport for 10 hours for my luggage, so be it."

It not only appeals to all workers, in all jobs across Canada, but in every country in the world. Events like these are bound to inconvenience many people, in many different ways. Often, that is unfortunately the way it is.
In the realm of human suffering, what these inconvenienced passengers went through is really very little. When something like this inconveniences us, we complain. It is very difficult in that moment to realize what losing our democratic rights, bit by bit, will mean in the long run.

There are simply times when people have to do what they have to do in the interest of human rights. The poor economy can only be used as a scapegoat for so long. People are getting fed up.

Not only that, but in the example of the customer spitting in the agent's face: The behaviour of society in general has become to distasteful that, even on a normal day, airline personnel must contend with boorish, rude and disrespectful travellers. All of this, day after day, meanwhile working conditions, staffing levels, pay and benefits are deteriorating on an unprecedented level.

Cheers,
Carl

[Edited 2012-03-23 22:59:21]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2012-03-23 22:56:13 and read 6085 times.

Quoting kfitz (Reply 74):
Yes I do applaud them especially when those attempting to malaign and slander them are those with anti-union biases like yourself who I have little doubt supported the legislation passed.


If i support the legislation or not is irrelevant, and thanks for the assumption on your half that I do, spoken like a true Union Thumper, don't get the facts but just assume and label everyone else. The fact is that employees heckled a customer, who or what they represent is irrelevant, they are a customer and anyone with the slightest bit of common sense understands that you don't do this while you are being paid by your employer. In this case, if you disagree with Lisa Raitts legislation, you confront her on your own time, not while you are representing a company. They got caught and were disciplined accordingly which is the way it is supposed to be ... you mess up you get punished. If your age bracket on your profile is correct, than I can assure you that I've been working in Union environments for pretty much most of your life, so I can assure you I understand where the frustration and anger comes from in these situations, but you play it cool and let your Union do the job you pay them for, you don't take matters into your own hands and misbehave on the job ... and having been in more grievance meetings than I care to remember, if you do mess up, you will get punished ... accept it.

Quoting kfitz (Reply 74):
I don't care for your character attacks on these workers simply because you can't stand unions and can't deal with their audacity to...clap... to the represive legislation


I really don't care if you care about any character attacks on my part, I really don't. But I do care that I know exactly what kind of employees and Union members people like these represent, believe me when I tell you that every Union has them and when you have to deal with them, it becomes almost unbearable because they just don't want to accept facts and they don't want you to do your job to help them, then they come crying back to you when they mess up and expect you to make it all better for them.

My stand on Unions is again, completely irrelevant, I've worked with Unions for almost half my life to know that my opinion towards them has absolutely no relevance to the actions that played out here.

Quoting kfitz (Reply 74):
Give me a break


Right back at ya!

As I posted earlier, had they walked out because of the legislation, I would have understood it, but to walk off the job, illegaly at that, because a group of jackasses messed up, absolutley 100% unacceptable and any Union member with half a brain knows that.

[Edited 2012-03-23 22:59:25]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: kfitz
Posted 2012-03-23 23:15:29 and read 6064 times.

Writing what amounts to an essay won't hide the fact that you've presented yourself as an anti-union extremist who uses overblown rhetoric and slanderous character attacks to get your viewpoint across. If you're an operative of the company attempting to portray the situation in a specific light for online consumption, you should consider being a bit more tactful in the future.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: challengerdan
Posted 2012-03-23 23:45:55 and read 6048 times.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 85):
Sacrifices?

Absolutely.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 85):
Like the wage increases they were offered?

What AC offered in their last TA for the pilots is reported to be 2% for the first 3 years and 3% for the last 2 years. This doesn't bring the salaries back to where they were before 2003. And that, my good friend, doesn't even take into account the inflation. Meanwhile, Mr Milton, made 82M from wage and stock options. May I ask you where this money came from? A company whose sole purpose was to liquidate AC assets. yep. ACE. You can bet a good part of this came from the $1.1 B that came from employee concessions in 2003. You want to talk about Mr Brewer's salary now? 2002 to 2009. 15 Millions. Not bad considering the mess he left. If you google a bit you will find a nice chart about all AC senior Managers salaries from 2002 to 2011. Amazing.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 85):
Or the pensions?

Well, you do realize that AC's pensions have been underfunded to the order of 2B and that they needed waivers from the federal government because they are not contributing as per regulations. AC customer service had to accept an hybrid pension scheme which is a mix of DB and DC plans. Is this what you refer to "well above what most Canadians have"?

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 85):
Or the flight benefits?

If you would be in anyway related to AC you would also know that flight benefits are not what they used to be. Many Air Canada pilots fly on WS Jump-seat agreement because it is cheaper than using their "flight benefits". Go ahead and ask around. Oh, and if you do work for AC, if you were hired after a certain date, well Calin's mom is probably higher priority than you. That's the flight benefits.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 85):
Come on! The door is always open if it's really that bad, sadly I don't see too many taking it though.

That's fine with me. But I was out on the street with some Aveos chaps this Tuesday when the riot police came to move the protesters from blocking AC HQ access in YUL. I don't work for AC, mind you, I was just there for solidarity. I don't think that most guys in their 50s with 20 to 30 years in would agree with you. I dare you to walk up to them and convince that life is going to be better now that then can get themselves a real job.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 85):
WS isn't unionized

Good argument. They have associations. They also have great management. In 2008, when CAW were trying to unionize some of WS workers, this is what WS's president said:
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...1bd8ce-9c13-4a1e-8af4-2a15da482ad6
(...) according to Sean Durfy, WestJet's president and chief executive, said he's confident in the relationship the company has with its 7,300 employees, who benefit from an award-winning corporate culture, empowerment and a profit share plan.

You know what? He's right. Do you know who WS has on their board of Directors? drum roll please.... a Flight attendant. His name is Antonio Faiola. He has been an active member of WestJet's Pro-Active Communications Team (PACT), WestJet's employee representation, through the Flight Attendant Association Board since 2003. In 2008, Antonio moved into the role of FAAB Vice-Chair before being elected as FAAB Chair in 2009. Antonio was elected PACT Chairman in November 2011 and joined the Board of Directors shortly after as WestJet’s PACT representative.

Maybe if AC had an ACPA, a CUPE, a CAW or an IAMAW representative on their Board of Directors thwy wouldn't be that far apart.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 85):
Clive Beddoe from WS has gotten about $63 million in compensation from WS, does that make him like Milton?

Nobody would argue Milton's 80M if he would have performed as Clive did. Mechanics a WS now make more than AC because they havn't had a wage freeze since 2003 . they don't have a pension but an industry leading Employee Share Ownership Program that if well managed can represent 20 of Yearly salary. I would probably prefer that over the uncertainty of AC pension. Mind you WS is not hiring in my city, unfortunately.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 85):
ACE Aviation is a separate company from Air Canada.

Would you please enlighten us? What is their line of work? what goods do they produce? what service do they provide? where is the 300M dollars they are going to distribute to the shareholders this year coming from? Where are they adding value? Where is the C$4B that they gave back to their shareholders since 2003 coming from?

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 85):
Except that they weren't being offered ANY wage cuts. They were offered in the range of 9%-11% wage increases

I think I answered this one already.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 85):
Why don't you ask the Swissport workers how much their compensation is, just so everyone on here can get a dose of reality.

Have you tried to feed a family and put your kids through college while loading bags in the pit of E190 at -22 Deg on a Friday night at 23h30 making 12$ an hour? You think that it's fair? You think that's what they should be making? So that me and you can drink some Margaritas in an All-Inclusive in Cancun for a week? I would really like to know what's your line of work...


And don't get me started on the Torries attacking the Labour groups.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2012-03-24 01:42:37 and read 5972 times.

Quoting kfitz (Reply 88):
Writing what amounts to an essay won't hide the fact that you've presented yourself as an anti-union extremist who uses overblown rhetoric and slanderous character attacks to get your viewpoint across.

Anti-Union Extremist? Where and what the hell are you reading to come up with such ridiculous assumptions? Seriously? Please, oh please post any reference I have made to make me a so called extremist.

Quoting kfitz (Reply 88):
If you're an operative of the company attempting to portray the situation in a specific light for online consumption,

Oh man, now you're really grasping for threads. Yes, I'm an "opperative of the company", I'm also Batman ... shhhhhh!

Quoting kfitz (Reply 88):
you should consider being a bit more tactful in the future.

Tactful in what? What the hell are you going on about? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, if anyone needs to learn to be tactful it is you. I asked you a simple question, and all you had to do was answer it and all would be fine. You support the job action I don't, you have your opinion and I respect that even though I don't agree with you, but instead, you had to start with assumptions that you are pulling out of thin air ... tactful indeed.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: swissy
Posted 2012-03-24 05:37:43 and read 5870 times.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 85):
WS isn't unionized, and at least at some of their substations they contract their ramp out to other companies for much less then what it costs to have their own operation.

No WS is not... but their 3rd party ground handling is... hence that is why I mentioned to have a look what is going on over @ T3   where all the 3rd party ground handlers are.

it is not all "honky dory" behind the WS curtains.... I am just surprised that no union has made it yet , guess it is just a "time" thing...

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
Well, you do realize that AC's pensions have been underfunded to the order of 2B and that they needed waivers from the federal government because they are not contributing as per regulations. AC customer service had to accept an hybrid pension scheme which is a mix of DB and DC plans. Is this what you refer to "well above what most Canadians have"?

That is for me a very sticky issues. It is not just a huge problem for AC alone, it is all over, everywhere and it appears the government is not willing to make changes and plug the holes like short pay the funds and use the $$ somewhere else...

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
Have you tried to feed a family and put your kids through college while loading bags in the pit of E190 at -22 Deg on a Friday night at 23h30 making 12$ an hour? You think that it's fair? You think that's what they should be making? So that me and you can drink some Margaritas in an All-Inclusive in Cancun for a week? I would really like to know what's your line of work...

There are 1000's of them out there that do that every day all over Canada... Their life style is not AC's problem or mine as a paying customer... At the end of the day AC has to make adjustments to stay competitive against their competitors. The only short comings I can see is their employee pension, other than that they pay what they agreed to and employees accepted to.
Have loaded/worked in that environment, know how a aircraft belly (cargo hold) looks like, know how the blue juice taste, went for load master training and I forgot the number of aircraft I de iced over the "good old" years while working in that industry... Oh and no it was not my job to do so... but because some clowns chosen not to show up for work and screwed the rest including paying passengers on their way to get some "Margaritas"...on a side note, average hrly. rate was 15.25$ and hour for these employees...We could have payed them 50$ an hour and nothing would have changed...

Cheerios,

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-03-24 05:50:57 and read 5837 times.

Quoting AY104 (Reply 86):
Not only that, but in the example of the customer spitting in the agent's face: The behaviour of society in general has become to distasteful that, even on a normal day, airline personnel must contend with boorish, rude and disrespectful travellers

Maybe clients do as they wish because companies continue to let it be know that the customer is always right, cause and effect of something like that?


Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 87):
The fact is that employees heckled a customer, who or what they represent is irrelevant, they are a customer and anyone with the slightest bit of common sense understands that you don't do this while you are being paid by your employer.
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 87):
In this case, if you disagree with Lisa Raitts legislation, you confront her on your own time, not while you are representing a company. They got caught and were disciplined accordingly which is the way it is supposed to be ... you mess up you get punished.
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 87):
As I posted earlier, had they walked out because of the legislation, I would have understood it, but to walk off the job, illegaly at that, because a group of jackasses messed up, absolutley 100% unacceptable and any Union member with half a brain knows that.

My question then is why is management making this about numbers and not principle, if the 3 were wrong and justly punished, every wrong action as a result of the first is also wrong and should be punished. All other employees who walked off the job in support of the illegal action by those 3 employees should also be punished with the minimum of the same punishment, and it shoudl also be as swift as the initial punishment.

If management does not punish the numbers who went out they are throwing principle out the door and saying that its all about something else, not right and wrong as many here are stating.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: challengerdan
Posted 2012-03-24 10:04:35 and read 5652 times.

Quoting swissy (Reply 91):

There are 1000's of them out there that do that every day all over Canada... Their life style is not AC's problem or mine as a paying customer...

Because others have to do it too doesn't make it any more acceptable. Handlex workers (Air Transat's ground handling arm) started off at $10.20 in 2008. Minimum wage is 9.65 in Quebec. Well thay just lost the AF/KLM contract in Canada and are now contemplating their plan going forward. Maybe they should charge below minimum wage?

And, as a proud Canadian, I DO care about the lifestyle of the persons giving me a service and trying to earn a living. And I DO hope that Canadian corporations feel the same. Some do, and some don't. Those that do have my money. I cannot convince you do the same, and that's your prerogative. You have the right to spend your money as you see fit. But in your own interest, of flying as cheaply as possible, why is it that our market is closed to foreign carriers? At least then maybe there would be real competition on the Canadian market. If I want an all-inclusive vacation to the Caribeeans at least there is real competition. There is Sunwing, Transat, Thomas Cook, WestJet, Air Canada etc all flying canadian and foreign wholesaler packages to the south. It is cut-throat, but there is competition. I can decide which one gets my money.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: WestJet747
Posted 2012-03-24 10:05:26 and read 5654 times.

Quoting kfitz (Reply 88):
Writing what amounts to an essay won't hide the fact that you've presented yourself as an anti-union extremist who uses overblown rhetoric and slanderous character attacks to get your viewpoint across. If you're an operative of the company attempting to portray the situation in a specific light for online consumption, you should consider being a bit more tactful in the future.

When's the next Occupy meeting?

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
So that me and you can drink some Margaritas in an All-Inclusive in Cancun for a week? I would really like to know what's your line of work...

If they don't like that I studied hard in school so that I could get a well-paying job to pay for those vacations, then that's fine by me.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 83):
"Meanwhile, ACE said Milton earned $441,232 in consulting fees and airline travel allowance in 2011, compared with $525,000 in 2010.

This is absolutely ludicrous. Not much more to say about it.

Quoting AY104 (Reply 86):
If I have to wait in this airport for 10 hours for my luggage, so be it."

I'm sure this represents about 1% of paying customers.

Quoting swissy (Reply 91):
it is not all "honky dory" behind the WS curtains.... I am just surprised that no union has made it yet , guess it is just a "time" thing...

Well did you not say they are a contracted third-party company? If that's the case then if things go sour they can drop the contract and bring someone else in with minimal repercussions. Or did I misread?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: wedgetail737
Posted 2012-03-24 10:12:49 and read 5655 times.

Bye bye...Canadian Civil Avation transport. It's been nice knowing ya. First Air Canada kills their competitor...then now they're on strike, with finances that scream BANKRUPTCY!!!

Hmmm...very much like the US airline industry.

Union workers have the right to strike. But Union workers can also take a company...and what's left? Nothing but a ton of unemployed workers scouring the government for money. There goes the Canadian economy!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2012-03-24 12:05:32 and read 5537 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 92):
My question then is why is management making this about numbers and not principle, if the 3 were wrong and justly punished, every wrong action as a result of the first is also wrong and should be punished. All other employees who walked off the job in support of the illegal action by those 3 employees should also be punished with the minimum of the same punishment, and it shoudl also be as swift as the initial punishment.


And some of the empolyees that did go on strike have lost there jobs but the Union managed to reinstate them along with the original 3 employees with the promise that everyone goes back to work ...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/stor...2012/03/23/air-canada-wildcat.html

... and this is a problem that arises when tempers flair and when some employees try to take matter into their own hands and not thinking about the repercussions of their actions. Instead of the Union trying to get things moving, trying to get a deal favourable to the majority of their membership and challenge the legislation in a legal matter (such as the way the BC Teacher's Federation is trying to do in BC with a similar piece legislation that was just passed) the Union now has to spend time and resources it needs to be focusing on a contract and the legislation, and spend it on trying to save the strikees jobs.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-03-24 13:28:18 and read 5443 times.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 79):
There is a strike that shuts down Air Canada pretty much every other year.

Totally incorrect. When was AC's last strike that shut down the airline? I think it was sometime in the 1990s. Many airlines have had far more frequent strikes than AC.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: swissy
Posted 2012-03-24 14:04:19 and read 5398 times.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 93):
Because others have to do it too doesn't make it any more acceptable. Handlex workers (Air Transat's ground handling arm) started off at $10.20 in 2008. Minimum wage is 9.65 in Quebec. Well thay just lost the AF/KLM contract in Canada and are now contemplating their plan going forward. Maybe they should charge below minimum wage?

You are missing my point... if you cannot make a living @ 10.20 an hr. then you should work somewhere else...

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 93):
And, as a proud Canadian, I DO care about the lifestyle of the persons giving me a service and trying to earn a living. And I DO hope that Canadian corporations feel the same. Some do, and some don't. Those that do have my money. I cannot convince you do the same, and that's your prerogative. You have the right to spend your money as you see fit. But in your own interest, of flying as cheaply as possible, why is it that our market is closed to foreign carriers? At least then maybe there would be real competition on the Canadian market. If I want an all-inclusive vacation to the Caribeeans at least there is real competition. There is Sunwing, Transat, Thomas Cook, WestJet, Air Canada etc all flying canadian and foreign wholesaler packages to the south. It is cut-throat, but there is competition. I can decide which one gets my money.

Sure it is cut throat competition... no one wants to pay a fair price for everything anymore... for me price is secondary hence why AC is my preferred carrier out of Canada... and yes they are not always the expensive one 

If WS would have their own ground handler on every "major" airport in Canada things would be different...

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 94):
Well did you not say they are a contracted third-party company? If that's the case then if things go sour they can drop the contract and bring someone else in with minimal repercussions. Or did I misread?

Even if a 3rd party is doing WS ground handling it is not as easy breezy replacing them within hrs. if ground handlers are walking off or go on strike... WS is exposed to the reality just like AC  ...have seen it happen before.

Also remember WS is a big player driving down wages on airports where they require 3rd part services and yes they do give a flying f... (excuse my language  ) what these people get payed... the lesser the better for them. So all you flying WS fan boys you are approving their corporate culture when you chose them for your traveling.... And yes I have had plenty of meetings with these WS people including Clive and I do not have any respect for any of them and I do not miss that time one bit.

Cheerios,

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: Eagleboy
Posted 2012-03-24 14:26:16 and read 5355 times.

Quoting aerohottie (Reply 9):
In this market I guarantee that if AC was able to recruit, and advertised for the roles they would get a truckload of applications from people who are very willing to work for a very sharp rate.

Great idea........AC will then have truckloads of staff who can only do what they are told to by their 2-6 week training period manual and are unable to deal with any situation outside of their manual.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2012-03-24 15:46:41 and read 5243 times.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
That's fine with me. But I was out on the street with some Aveos chaps this Tuesday when the riot police came to move the protesters from blocking AC HQ access in YUL. I don't work for AC, mind you, I was just there for solidarity. I don't think that most guys in their 50s with 20 to 30 years in would agree with you. I dare you to walk up to them and convince that life is going to be better now that then can get themselves a real job.

These guys should not be wasting their time protesting. If they have families to feed, their time is better used hunting for a new job then preventing others from attending their's.

Besides, shouldn't these employees be protesting Aveos management? Typical that they blame Air Canada. AC sent 91% of their major work to Aveos and they still went belly up. Air Canada is easy to blame, but I think Aveos management is getting off easy by employees considering they could not diversify their customer base, and reduce costs.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
You know what? He's right. Do you know who WS has on their board of Directors? drum roll please.... a Flight attendant. His name is Antonio Faiola. He has been an active member of WestJet's Pro-Active Communications Team (PACT), WestJet's employee representation, through the Flight Attendant Association Board since 2003. In 2008, Antonio moved into the role of FAAB Vice-Chair before being elected as FAAB Chair in 2009. Antonio was elected PACT Chairman in November 2011 and joined the Board of Directors shortly after as WestJet’s PACT representative.

The unions are full of money. They can buy themselves a seat on the board of directors if they want. Problem with that is they couldn't blame management anymore since they would be part of them. Unions are not in the business of running a business (other then their own). They are in in for union dues and fighting management at every opportunity.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
Maybe if AC had an ACPA, a CUPE, a CAW or an IAMAW representative on their Board of Directors thwy wouldn't be that far apart.

Correct, they would be carving up every bit of the airlines operating revenues to distribute to employees until the airline could no longer operate. Then they would run to the government for more money. Reminds me of the mafia.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
Have you tried to feed a family and put your kids through college while loading bags in the pit of E190 at -22 Deg on a Friday night at 23h30 making 12$ an hour? You think that it's fair? You think that's what they should be making? So that me and you can drink some Margaritas in an All-Inclusive in Cancun for a week? I would really like to know what's your line of work...

So don't do it. I would advise this employee to find another job. This is what the market is paying for this type of work. Obviously there are many applicants. If there wasn't, the airline might try raising the wage. What is a fair wage? $13? $18? $115? Whatever the number is, I can tell you, is never enough because unions and their supporters will continue to float the "Well, Milton and Rovinescu are making a billion dollars, so should we...

Your arguments are littered with comments of entitlement. None of these workers are entitled to anything except to be paid the wage agreed upon in their contract in return for the agreed upon number of work hours.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-03-24 15:57:47 and read 5223 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 100):
Your arguments are littered with comments of entitlement. None of these workers are entitled to anything except to be paid the wage agreed upon in their contract in return for the agreed upon number of work hours.

Finally! somebody gets it.

This thread is also littered with politics and too many biased opinions based off of where people are in life, instead of the facts.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-03-24 16:12:55 and read 5207 times.

Quoting swissy (Reply 98):
You are missing my point... if you cannot make a living @ 10.20 an hr. then you should work somewhere else...

You're loading bags...not nuclear missile payloads. Put bags on...take bags off...did I miss anything? What wage should they be making for that?

I've had 12 buck an hour jobs...and they suck. You can't live on that. So I packed up my stuff and moved to where I could make a proper wage.

There are lots of well paying jobs in Canada which require little more than a pulse as a prerequisite. My nephew went right from high school to making over 50 grand a year, full benefits working 2 weeks on, 1 week off. Lots more of those jobs around. There is no age requirement either.

Loading bags will never, ever pay a wage good enough to raise a family...unless you really want to live with a bunch or roommates...and it shouldn't. It is unskilled labour...and even then, there are way better unskilled labour jobs around. Tim Horton's is paying up to 14 bucks an hour to pour coffee.

Striking never makes the money back which is lost to the strike itself. The problem is, people don't want to have to move. It doesn't matter what the CEO makes...he's always going to make more than the guys on the bottom...so will his earning a few million less mean significantly more money in the pockets of workers? No it won't.

It's the same thing every time; the CEO is getting rich and everyone else is getting poor. Conditions are unfair. The company is screwing the workers. Why would any sane person not only tolerate that, but keep coming back year, after year, after year?

Look after yourselves. If the company sucks that badly, why work for them? If you are worth more, go to where you can get that wage. Why continue to support a company that obviously doesn't appreciate you? Take your skills and walk.

If the job doesn't meet your standards, get another job. If this is the only job you're qualified for, you better get used to it, because you're screwed.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: A346Dude
Posted 2012-03-24 16:25:30 and read 5182 times.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
Have you tried to feed a family and put your kids through college while loading bags in the pit of E190 at -22 Deg on a Friday night at 23h30 making 12$ an hour? You think that it's fair?

Having kids and putting them through college is not a right.

BTW I am a very junior rampie, and I would rather load that pit than work in an office any day of the week.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: yyzacguy
Posted 2012-03-24 20:27:01 and read 5047 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 102):

You're loading bags...not nuclear missile payloads. Put bags on...take bags off...did I miss anything? What wage should they be making for that?

Just Loading bags Is that all, How about making sure those bags are in the proper place and correct location so the planes weight and balance is good, Or making sure the containers are LOADED and LOCKED properly then we handle all kinds of dangerous good and have to get retrained every 2 years, we handle dead bodies ARE YOU SURE WE JUST LOAD BAGS . How about the walkarounds to make sure YOUR AIRPLANE is safe to fly How about servicing the washroom filling the plane with water, working around airplanes worth millions. We dont work in a heated office or AC, It rains shine snows we are out there 0 degrees -40 we are out in the rain snow we are working all to make sure your flight arrives on time and leave on time and YOU LOOK AT US JUST LOADING BAGS. If it was just LOADING BAGS JOE the course would not take 5 weeks training, You would not need a passing mark of 80%. I been doing it for 12 years and its not JUST LOADING BAGS I AM SORRY.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-24 21:03:30 and read 4991 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 100):
I would advise this employee to find another job. This is what the market is paying for this type of work. Obviously there are many applicants. If there wasn't, the airline might try raising the wage. What is a fair wage? $13? $18? $115? Whatever the number is, I can tell you, is never enough because unions and their supporters will continue to float the "Well, Milton and Rovinescu are making a billion dollars, so should we...

Your arguments are littered with comments of entitlement. None of these workers are entitled to anything except to be paid the wage agreed upon in their contract in return for the agreed upon number of work hours.
Quoting yyzacguy (Reply 104):
You're loading bags...not nuclear missile payloads. Put bags on...take bags off...did I miss anything? What wage should they be making for that?

Just Loading bags Is that all, How about making sure those bags are in the proper place and correct location so the planes weight and balance is good, Or making sure the containers are LOADED and LOCKED properly then we handle all kinds of dangerous good and have to get retrained every 2 years, we handle dead bodies ARE YOU SURE WE JUST LOAD BAGS . How about the walkarounds to make sure YOUR AIRPLANE is safe to fly How about servicing the washroom filling the plane with water, working around airplanes worth millions. We dont work in a heated office or AC, It rains shine snows we are out there 0 degrees -40 we are out in the rain snow we are working all to make sure your flight arrives on time and leave on time and YOU LOOK AT US JUST LOADING BAGS. If it was just LOADING BAGS JOE the course would not take 5 weeks training, You would not need a passing mark of 80%. I been doing it for 12 years and its not JUST LOADING BAGS I AM SORR

It is amazing how much this gang does not see that this is not difficult work. It really isn't. Really....load bags and containers correctly? Training for 5 weeks for how many grand....50k? Well I went to university for 8 YEARS. I don't make anywhere that proportion of way. According to your ideas about training ...... I should make $570k a year based on training for doing what I need to do to go to work. Wow! You really have no idea. Oh sorry, by the way, I paid for that 8 years, did you pay for your whole strenuous 5 WEEKS!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-24 21:06:14 and read 4988 times.

Quoting yyzacguy (Reply 104):
If it was just LOADING BAGS JOE the course would not take 5 weeks training, You would not need a passing mark of 80%. I been doing it for 12 years and its not JUST LOADING BAGS I AM SORRY.

My it must be challenging. Don't ever stress yourself.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2012-03-24 21:18:31 and read 4976 times.

Quoting yyzacguy (Reply 104):
e course would not take 5 weeks training, You would not need a passing mark of 80%. I been doing it for 12 years and its not JUST LOADING BAGS I AM SORRY.

Ready for a reality check? It *is* just loading the aircraft. Does it come with some serious responsibility? Of course it does. So does flying the plane, or maintaining it, or planning the flight plan and cost models. EVERY role at a company is important to it's success, including YOUR job man.

I was a Dangerous Goods Specialist for a major package company for 5 years, and I had weeks-long courses that I needed to go to to be able to do the job every year. Did I get an extra payment for handling the potentially dangerous shipments? No. But, that extra responsibility brought me some great knowledge and business smarts that I never would have received had I not VOLUNTEERED for the role, and instead of demanding more money ever year, I took the experience and learned from it. When a non unionized position came available, they actually sought *ME* out for the job because I had gone above and beyond in trying something new.

Do I think that rampies are slackers and NOT worth the money they get paid? No. I believe that they are probably among some of the hardest workers AT an Airline (when you talk about "hardest", I'm referring to physical workload). The issue that we have in MOST unionized workplaces is that many Unionized positions have negotiated for DECADES unrealistic and way-above-scale $ hourly wages that are NOW really seriously impacting many North American businesses. When there isn't much money to go around, how can you expect a huge increase?

Why do you think that most of the businesses in North America outsource to other cheaper nations? It's simple - companies want to make more profit and to do that, they have to find a way to save money somewhere. Salaries and employee's are the easiest place to look to cut costs. Decades of unrealistic wage increases in both unionized and non-unionized positions have caused the huge rise in inflation that has brought us to this unworkable situation our countries are in now.

However, conversely, without unions, we wouldn't have some of the Workers Rights legislation we have today.

You have a choice to work there or not - someone here hit the nail on the head - you are paid a wage to do the job outlined in your contract, and nothing more. If you don't like the wages you are being paid, go back to school, become a business professional, and make more money.

I haven't had a proper increase in about 3 years. My company is making money, but not hand over fist. I trust that the company will reward us with proper increases when the company starts to do well. If I don't like the pay, I have the right to move on.

That's the way the world works. It's NOT going to change.

What will be sad, is IF AC does go bankrupt, and all these jobs are outsourced, these people end up loosing their jobs because they wanted to "show the company that without us, it wouldn't run". -- THAT is the common Union message I hear from many many different union jobs I run into.

Guess what.. If the CEO can be replaced, so can the unionized worker.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-24 21:19:45 and read 4979 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 105):
It is amazing how much this gang does not see that this is not difficult work. It really isn't. Really....load bags and containers correctly? Training for 5 weeks for how many grand....50k? Well I went to university for 8 YEARS. I don't make anywhere that proportion of way. According to your ideas about training ...... I should make $570k a year based on training for doing what I need to do to go to work. Wow! You really have no idea. Oh sorry, by the way, I paid for that 8 years, did you pay for your whole strenuous 5 WEEKS!

I'm speaking as someone that goes to U of T St. George (as a third year student) and also has experience working on the ramp, and I'll tell you that working on the ramp isn't as easy as it seems. When you're out there, you could be working in a very confusing environment with all sorts of heavy equipment driving around, and sometimes it can also be very hard to communicate with your colleagues due to the noise. OJIs happen all the time, some of them fatal.

Driving a container loader and pushback tractor is not like driving your car at all. One slip of the foot and you could cause millions of dollars worth of damage. Just imagine the pressure.

During a rainy or snowy day, you could be climbing onto the belt loader to access the bulk hold of a 777 and slip and fall a dozen feet. Even with precautions, it can happen very easily.

Ramp workers who have been there for several years have significant hearing loss and permanent back injuries. You cannot put a price on your own health.

I definitely agree with YYZACGUY, the job is way more than just loading and offloading bags.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2012-03-24 21:27:55 and read 4954 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 108):
I definitely agree with YYZACGUY, the job is way more than just loading and offloading bags.

I don't think anyone doubts that it's hard work, or that it comes with serious responsibility, but most jobs do.

The guy working the grill at McDonalds has to make sure that all the meat is thoroughly cooked, or people can die.

However, I think part of the problem is the sense of entitlement that the union workers seem to be spewing. The biggest downfall of Unionized environments is the right to walk off the job. All that does is make things worse, it doesn't make things better. They know they can walk off the job and wreck havoc.

As a non-unionized employee, I can't walk off my job. Know why? Reality. Reality is that there are 200 people knocking at my employers door who want to take my job when it becomes open. Unfortunately, I think it's a very common thing that Unionized employees forget what reality is like because they hide behind the protection of the union.

Nowadays, companies are just getting smarter. Union won't accept? Okay. Eliminate the positions and outsource it to save money. Simple as that.

Again, I think there is a lot responsibility than just loading the plane.. but.. that IS all it is.. Loading the aircraft.. they didn't DESIGN the aircraft.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-03-24 21:31:20 and read 4952 times.

Quoting yyzacguy (Reply 104):

I've never passed a test with less than 80% and that includes my pilot's license. I've worked outside at -40 arming perforating guns with explosives. I've worked offshore in temps of +55 with 95% humidity working with not just explosives, but pressures and H2S levels that are so toxic, people die if I screw up.

I've handled almost every kind of dangerous goods possible, and I know what it takes to make them safe for transport.

What I don't do is blame anyone else for me choosing to do that job. If the pay isn't quite up to your standards, get another job. Don't blame me or anyone else for you staying with a job that you obviously feel isn't paying you for what you're worth.

If someone is willing to do your job for 12 bucks an hour, it's a 12 buck an hour job. If you want to keep that job, don't expect a whole lot of raises.

There is a maximum amount a job is worth regardless of ones time at the job. After 12 years, you're probably maxed out. If you want to keep doing that work, it's entirely your choice. I choose not to work for companies that are attempting to screw me over. If you wish to, again, it's your choice.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: kfitz
Posted 2012-03-24 21:31:31 and read 4950 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 105):

It is physically demanding, often times dangerous work. Until you've been down on a ramp to observe firsthand I eon't find it appropriate to make sweeping generalized statements like this.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-24 21:35:51 and read 4943 times.

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 109):
I don't think anyone doubts that it's hard work, or that it comes with serious responsibility, but most jobs do.

I think that some people do:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 102):
You're loading bags...not nuclear missile payloads. Put bags on...take bags off...did I miss anything? What wage should they be making for that?
Quoting idjim319 (Reply 105):
It is amazing how much this gang does not see that this is not difficult work. It really isn't.
Quoting idjim319 (Reply 106):
My it must be challenging. Don't ever stress yourself.
Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 109):
However, I think part of the problem is the sense of entitlement that the union workers seem to be spewing. The biggest downfall of Unionized environments is the right to walk off the job. All that does is make things worse, it doesn't make things better. They know they can walk off the job and wreck havoc.

As a non-unionized employee, I can't walk off my job. Know why? Reality. Reality is that there are 200 people knocking at my employers door who want to take my job when it becomes open. Unfortunately, I think it's a very common thing that Unionized employees forget what reality is like because they hide behind the protection of the union.

I can understand where you're coming from, but at the end of the day, the right to assemble, bargain collectively and strike is a fundamental right of any democratic and free society, whether you like it or not. What the AC workers did yesterday was illegal indeed, but the government shouldn't have stepped in to prevent them from striking in the first place.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2012-03-24 22:02:40 and read 4914 times.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 17):
Would instantly terminating employment of those involved in this wildcat strike send the correct message to other Air Canada employees?

Good luck doing that in a union environment unless you can justifty cause and if this is the first offence of the employees then suspending them is the right course of action.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 70):
Ever wondered why you don't ear any issues of that magnitude at WJ for example? Maybe because management actually cares? How come the employees, even when paid less, agree to be more productive? Maybe because they feel good about themselves, because management actually give a "#$% about them and rewards and values employees going above and beyond?

Management deserves the union they get, treat employees with common decency and not people that are hindrances to the unlimited profits you desire and people won't want to collectively bargain.

Quoting swissy (Reply 73):
Neither I am... have not seen any union saving jobs... What about my rights? I have to travel to places and AC is MY partner helping me getting there... and what, just because of some clowns who have the freedom to work somewhere else if they do not like it at AC chose to screw everyone over because they have labour/personal issues???

Getting on a plane is not your right and if you have a ticket and there is a labour stoppage other airlines if possible will honour the ticket or it will be refunded.

If you deem air transport as an essential service then tell AC's management to negotiate a "No strike clause" with it's unions such as what police, nurses, and fire-fighters have.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 75):
That said, unless you were flying AC to one of those AC-only destinations, you made a choice. You have a right to make a choice. You don't have the right to expect the choice to work out regardless of the circumstances. In AC's case, the circumstances have been known for months now.

That is also what cancellation and disruption insurance protects against.

Quoting AY104 (Reply 86):
"We can't continue to have government interfering in these ways and breaking the backs of unions. This is about workers' rights, and I totally support this. If I have to wait in this airport for 10 hours for my luggage, so be it."

If a lot of Canadians think this way then Harper's majority will be short-lived and this is supposed to be the party that says to private corporations "Sink or swim" and we will stay out of it. I would expect this from the NDP but ironically they are most likely to stay out if nothing was done illegally.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2012-03-24 22:03:21 and read 4909 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 112):
What the AC workers did yesterday was illegal indeed, but the government shouldn't have stepped in to prevent them from striking in the first place.

With that, I do agree.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-24 22:36:53 and read 4886 times.

Quoting kfitz (Reply 111):
It is physically demanding, often times dangerous work. Until you've been down on a ramp to observe firsthand I eon't find it appropriate to make sweeping generalized statements like this.

Oh dear. Sorry I upset you but most of us in the real world do things that are tricky and have consequences. You don't actually think loading bags or pallets in an airplane is that tough do you? There are SOPs. Thats all you need to to know. Finish high school, finish the class at AC, follow the script and have a job for life....is this that challenging?

Excuse me but when exactly did you have to shell out for your training?

Dangerous work you say? Follow the SOPs and keep your job in perspective.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-24 22:45:54 and read 4877 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 112):
What the AC workers did yesterday was illegal indeed, but the government shouldn't have stepped in to prevent them from striking in the first place.

Why? Exactly why? These unions at AC continue to show that they do what they want. They elect a leadership who bargains (in apparently .... well that is questionable) in good faith. THe membership turns them down. THey choose a new leadership and then they do it again.

Sorry no. This is not fair to the anyone involved especially the customers. The government can absolutely and should step in to protect the union from the babbling idiot of fools who calls themselves a union leadership. They have completely lost grip and AC's management's only job should be seeing the back of them.

Sorry unions at AC. You lost all of your credibility and should be allowed/forced to dismantle. As Canadians we have no need of you. You delivery bad, bad service.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-24 22:56:42 and read 4863 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 115):
Oh dear. Sorry I upset you but most of us in the real world do things that are tricky and have consequences.

Still doesn't make it an easy job as you portray it to be.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 115):
You don't actually think loading bags or pallets in an airplane is that tough do you?

It can be, especially when the power drives in the cargo hold don't work (which happens quite often).

Loading bags can be tough too, especially if it's an Embraer 190 bound for YMM or anywhere in the Caribbean. Doing this once or twice may seem easy, but try doing this for years and see how it affects your body.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 115):
There are SOPs. Thats all you need to to know.

SOPs can't protect you from all of the dangers that come with this job.
Reading and memorizing SOPs are actually a very small part of the training process at AC, most of the training for ramp is hands-on. The work environment is rather volatile and things change constantly. Sometimes, SOPs can get amended twice on the same day.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 115):
Excuse me but when exactly did you have to shell out for your training?

I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion of the dangers and risks that ramp workers face in their work.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-24 23:02:02 and read 4859 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 116):
Why?

Because it's a fundamental right.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 116):
This is not fair to the anyone involved especially the customers. The government can absolutely and should step in to protect the union from the babbling idiot of fools who calls themselves a union leadership. They have completely lost grip and AC's management's only job should be seeing the back of them.

Sorry unions at AC. You lost all of your credibility and should be allowed/forced to dismantle. As Canadians we have no need of you. You delivery bad, bad service.

The government has no business interfering in someone's endeavors in exercising what is a fundamental human right in this free and democratic society.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-24 23:07:46 and read 4856 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 117):
Still doesn't make it an easy job as you portray it to be.
Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 117):
It can be, especially when the power drives in the cargo hold don't work (which happens quite often)

Dude! Get yourself in check and grab some perspective! If you really believe your job is that tricky then you maybe need to branch out in the world!

Oh my! There are plenty of jobs who pay far less for your work stresses.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 117):
SOPs are actually a very small part of the training process at AC, most of the training for ramp is hands-on. The work environment is rather volatile and things change constantly. Sometimes, SOPs can get amended twice on the same day.

Oh my. Can't you keep up with this? This is not too much to take in the professional world. If you expect a decent salary then keep up. This is nothing you shouldn't be able to handle if you demand a salary in the scope of yours.
.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 117):
Loading bags can be tough too, especially if it's an Embraer 190 bound for YMM or anywhere in the Caribbean.

I'm sorry. Didn't you apply and accept a position at the airline? I'm sorry pussycat but this isn't a play date. Maybe you forgot the pay check you accept every month. Please decline the pay check in the form of quitting.....

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-24 23:12:05 and read 4842 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 118):
The government has no business interfering in someone's endeavors in exercising what is a fundamental human right in this free and democratic society.

Except my good man, there you are wrong. The government has right on the behalf of its citizens to act in a way to protect the majority and within the rules of law. And thank god they have.

THey have absolute right to interfere in this stupid self belief of striking. Your union are a band of fools and I totally agree with the Minister's right to intervene. I only hop she finds a way to scrap these unions full stop as they serve no purpose but a few lazy people.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-24 23:17:34 and read 4832 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 119):
Dude! Get yourself in check and grab some perspective! If you really believe your job is that tricky then you maybe need to branch out in the world!

I thought the same way you did until I actually started working on the ramp. Any opinion that you may have about this job can only be assumptive, unless you actually have first hand experience.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 119):

Oh my. Can't you keep up with this? This is not too much to take in the professional world. If you expect a decent salary then keep up. This is nothing you shouldn't be able to handle if you demand a salary in the scope of yours.

Again, you're being rather assumptive here. You can't compare the work environment of an office to one on the ramp. It's a whole different world and it's very easy to become disoriented.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 119):
I'm sorry. Didn't you apply and accept a position at the airline? I'm sorry pussycat but this isn't a play date. Maybe you forgot the pay check you accept every month. Please decline the pay check in the form of quitting.....

I no longer work at the company. I'll focus on going to school and maintaining my 3.5 GPA at U of T, because I think that's much less stressful than working on the ramp.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-24 23:22:12 and read 4822 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 120):
Except my good man, there you are wrong. The government has right on the behalf of its citizens to act in a way to protect the majority and within the rules of law. And thank god they have.

Erosion of fundamental human rights can't be a good thing for Canadians in the long term.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 120):
THey have absolute right to interfere in this stupid self belief of striking. Your union are a band of fools and I totally agree with the Minister's right to intervene. I only hop she finds a way to scrap these unions full stop as they serve no purpose but a few lazy people.

It's perfectly reasonable to disagree with the union's stance, or the cause that the union is fighting for. However, the right to strike is, by definition, a right. This is indisputable, and is something that is more in need of protection than someone's vacation plan.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2012-03-24 23:29:19 and read 4814 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 120):
THey have absolute right to interfere in this stupid self belief of striking. Your union are a band of fools and I totally agree with the Minister's right to intervene. I only hop she finds a way to scrap these unions full stop as they serve no purpose but a few lazy people.

They take away this right then another and then another and soon enough you have a dictatorship on your hands. If you are going to f*ck around with freedom of speech and expression rights which this is very much of an issue of then expect the consequences when it affects you!!

If AC operating trumps a strike or a lockout which is legal then the government should buy it back and operate it themselves.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 120):
I only hop she finds a way to scrap these unions full stop as they serve no purpose but a few lazy people.

It's not the government's business to bust a union or outlaw unless it represents government workers and AC's unions do not. Also look down South and see how well that technique worked for gov. Scott Walker in Wisconsin.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-24 23:29:27 and read 4817 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 121):
I thought the same way you did until I actually started working on the ramp. Any opinion that you may have about this job can only be assumptive, unless you actually have first hand experience.
Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 121):
no longer work at the company. I'll focus on going to school and maintaining my 3.5 GPA at U of T, because I think that's much less stressful than working on the ramp.

Ahhh good. That is fine then. I hope you take an economics course at u of t in your studies. At that point you'll actually learn the supply and demand curve and then you'll learn about market distortion... please note the lecture on unions.

Sorry dude, you marks are not impressive as most intelligent people score above that. Please don't quote them.

I don't care if it is hard or not to load a plane. I really don't. The simple. Fundamental. Universal. Fact.....It has been said over and over. QUIT IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT. Why is this so challenging???

I actually did it myself and now have doubled the salary! I actually quit because I didn't like it. Until people do this then I have no faith in their cause.

Sorry....I prefer to fly efficiently, on time, with clean cabin environment, with my bags on time, then deal with mindless underwork fools who think they have a tough time at work. Give me a great, big, giant break! You are doing work for a salary it took me paying for years in tuition in university to achieve. I have absolutely no sadness for you pulling the I have stress at work card on me. Get REAL!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: tonystan
Posted 2012-03-24 23:37:29 and read 4804 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
QUIT IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT.

What an ignorant comment!

Maybe they do like it, maybe they enjoy their job but maybe, JUST MAYBE...They are sick of having overpaid execs come along and demand they do their job for a lot less, without all the tools and with less time to spend with their family "Just cos someone else does it cheaper elsewhere"!!!!!!

I am not a fan of unions....but I understand their importance. Lets face it, if any large organisation could, we would still have children working as labour...but im sure to the economist that is a great idea, they fit into those baggage holds a lot easier!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-24 23:42:45 and read 4800 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
Ahhh good. That is fine then. I hope you take an economics course at u of t in your studies. At that point you'll actually learn the supply and demand curve and then you'll learn about market distortion... please note the lecture on unions.

Not sure what this has to do with the discussion on hand--the dangers of the ramp environment.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
Sorry dude, you marks are not impressive as most intelligent people score above that. Please don't quote them.

Leaving the condescension aside, hey, it's a tough school. At least I can still get into grad school with that.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
I don't care if it is hard or not to load a plane. I really don't. The simple. Fundamental. Universal. Fact.....It has been said over and over. QUIT IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT. Why is this so challenging???

I already know that I can quit a job if I don't like it. What I was challenging was your statement (or assumption, rather) that it wasn't a hard job. In that respect, you were wrong.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
Sorry....I prefer to fly efficiently, on time, with clean cabin environment, with my bags on time, then deal with mindless underwork fools who think they have a tough time at work. Give me a great, big, giant break! You are doing work for a salary it took me paying for years in tuition in university to achieve. I have absolutely no sadness for you pulling the I have stress at work card on me. Get REAL!

I care about those things too, but I'm not going to take away someone's fundamental human right for my own convenience.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-24 23:43:54 and read 4824 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 122):
It's perfectly reasonable to disagree with the union's stance, or the cause that the union is fighting for. However, the right to strike is, by definition, a right. This is indisputable, and is something that is more in need of protection than someone's vacation plan.

I stop you there.

A union can strike. They can do whatever stupid things unions do. I challenge you completely on this airline's unions behaviour.

Rights come obligations. You cannot accept a right without accepting the subsequent obligation.

If you accept these rights, do you then accept not stranding parents in airplanes with children?. Do you also accept not causing deliberately one man to miss an interview --- the job of his life in Singapore. Do you also accept that you caused a family to miss their dear mama's funeral in Edinburgh? What about the family who were expecting family in Sao Paolo.

Sorry, but with your right, are you still willing to render that family's vacation hell. By the way, they went to OGG from YYC....they couldn't get home for days afterwards due to strike action.

Let's talk about the lady fly from YMM to India to go to her son's funeral. She missed it. Yup she did. SHe tried to find another way but she was caught up in YYC for 5 days. She couldn't afford to now fly to Dehli as her money was tied up.

There was a family. Dad worked at Walmart and mom at Shoppers. THey've been saving for 3 years to take their kids to Disneyworld for a family fun time on spring break. Oh, sorry AC is now on strike. How does that matter to a 5 and 7 year old???

Has this union environment lost complete tough of why they exist??? if it is for union membership then goodbye, i hope to god the government shuts you down.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: kfitz
Posted 2012-03-24 23:47:58 and read 4819 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 115):

Sorry, I find your comments both ignorant and demeaning. Real easy to sit there behind your computer monitor and illustrate some fantasy world, but the reality is you have zero firsthand knowledge of what the real requirements are.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-24 23:52:39 and read 4816 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 127):
Rights come obligations. You cannot accept a right without accepting the subsequent obligation.
If you accept these rights, do you then accept not stranding parents in airplanes with children?. Do you also accept not causing deliberately one man to miss an interview --- the job of his life in Singapore. Do you also accept that you caused a family to miss their dear mama's funeral in Edinburgh? What about the family who were expecting family in Sao Paolo.

If those are the ramifications of what is a legal strike, then the striking workers are not legally obligated to take responsibility for them.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 127):
Sorry, but with your right, are you still willing to render that family's vacation hell. By the way, they went to OGG from YYC....they couldn't get home for days afterwards due to strike action.

Nothing should come above what is legally defined as a human right. End of story.

If you want to avoid all of this, fly on WestJet or some other airline.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-24 23:54:49 and read 4810 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 126):
Leaving the condescension aside, hey, it's a tough school. At least I can still get into grad school with that.

Then do. Nobody is stopping you.. whatever grad school you find that accepts your undergrad degree.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 125):
What an ignorant comment!

Maybe they do like it, maybe they enjoy their job but maybe, JUST MAYBE...They are sick of having overpaid execs come along and demand they do their job for a lot less, without all the tools and with less time to spend with their family "Just cos someone else does it cheaper elsewhere"!!!!!!

So find a better place. Is this hard to understand? Nobody is keeping you there. Are you so hopeless you can speake up with your feet? Its not an insult but a challenge....dude get your ass moving!!!


It is a reasonably simply thing. Apply, interview and accept the ramp position from AC. Do the job, accept the pay, do the job as required by the company, accept the pay. Is this too hard to follow.....

If you disagree, leave.

Why is this a tricky business for some mind's.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-25 00:09:34 and read 4798 times.

Quoting kfitz (Reply 128):
Sorry, I find your comments both ignorant and demeaning. Real easy to sit there behind your computer monitor and illustrate some fantasy world, but the reality is you have zero firsthand knowledge of what the real requirements are.

Hmmm. Whatever. Do you thing you're on a company picnic? Real requirements? Good good man keep it in perspective? Get the right can in the right hold? You want to strike for that? it isn't that hard dude! My god it isn't that hard!!!

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 129):
Nothing should come above what is legally defined as a human right. End of story.

Human right? Are you for real?

Okay lets go there smart boy. Let's look at your "rights" at loading bags in a 767. Lets think

The UN deals with substantive rights about
a right to life
freedom from slavery
freedom from torture
right to a fair trial
freedom of speech
freedom of conscious, thought and religion
right debates.

Sorry my friend, your cause is simply a non event if you you want to go that route. Do you really thing your right is that big??? If you claim a right then you agree to obligations. IN you case I suggest the only thing we Canadians accept is a decent level of service,

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: kfitz
Posted 2012-03-25 00:13:18 and read 4782 times.

Many find those extreme views detached from any practical or moral reaity. Again, very easy to sit from afar and bark ones own generalized views of the labor landscape.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-25 00:15:01 and read 4783 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 129):
If you want to avoid all of this, fly on WestJet or some other airline.

Hello CBC, CTV, and anyone else. This is the labour of AC staff. If you want to avoid this......


Nice.

Lisa Raitt, Please liberate us all from this,

I shall post his over an over again.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-25 00:21:14 and read 4775 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 130):
So find a better place. Is this hard to understand? Nobody is keeping you there. Are you so hopeless you can speake up with your feet? Its not an insult but a challenge....dude get your ass moving!!!


It is a reasonably simply thing. Apply, interview and accept the ramp position from AC. Do the job, accept the pay, do the job as required by the company, accept the pay. Is this too hard to follow.....

If you disagree, leave.

Why is this a tricky business for some mind's.

Air Canada is headquartered and based in a country that guarantees basic human rights such as the right to assemble and strike, and are legally obligated to abide by them. If Air Canada doesn't like that, and doesn't want to respect the workers' legal right to strike, then perhaps they should just change their name and set up shop elsewhere.

It's a travesty that the government fails to observe what they have already established as human rights.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 131):
Human right? Are you for real?

Okay lets go there smart boy. Let's look at your "rights" at loading bags in a 767. Lets think

The UN deals with substantive rights about
a right to life
freedom from slavery
freedom from torture
right to a fair trial
freedom of speech
freedom of conscious, thought and religion
right debates.

You forgot Article 20, the freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

Canadian labor laws also define striking as a right.

I personally am not offended by the sarcastic "smart boy" comment, but I find it rather petty and unnecessary. Please have some respect for other users in the forum. Thanks.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-25 00:22:57 and read 4762 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 133):

Hello CBC, CTV, and anyone else. This is the labour of AC staff. If you want to avoid this......

I do not work for Air Canada.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-25 00:32:42 and read 4754 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 134):
a country that guarantees basic human rights such as the right to assemble and strike, and are legally obligated to abide by them. If Air Canada doesn't like that, and doesn't want to respect the workers' legal right to strike, then perhaps they should just change their name and set up shop elsewhere.

Nope no. you can claim your right and that's pretty fancy.

Go on strike.Please be resounding so we al know you mean it. I'm sure it is terribly fancy.

Anyhow, while you're feeling so clever, Westjet is now doing rather well. Their staff has bonus cheques and are quite happy. Oh, I understand they're happy and profitable. I believe, although I'm no a lawyer, they're achieving this all within the RIGHTS of their staff.

Please strike and lose you job. Anyone who does yet call west jet home looks forward to you leaving.

With love!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-25 00:38:19 and read 4748 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 136):
to strike, then perhaps they should just change their name and set up shop elsewhere.

Nope no. you can claim your right and that's pretty fancy.

Go on strike.Please be resounding so we al know you mean it. I'm sure it is terribly fancy.

Anyhow, while you're feeling so clever, Westjet is now doing rather well. Their staff has bonus cheques and are quite happy. Oh, I understand they're happy and profitable. I believe, although I'm no a lawyer, they're achieving this all within the RIGHTS of their staff.

Please strike and lose you job. Anyone who does yet call west jet home looks forward to you leaving.

With love!

Once again, I do not understand what you're trying to say here, seeing as I don't work for the company in question, and thus in no position to go on strike.

It's good that WestJet is achieving such success "within the rights of their staff". I guess that's a lot tougher at AC, but rights are rights.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: Blue100
Posted 2012-03-25 00:39:37 and read 4744 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 130):
So find a better place. Is this hard to understand? Nobody is keeping you there. Are you so hopeless you can speake up with your feet? Its not an insult but a challenge....dude get your ass moving!!!


It is a reasonably simply thing. Apply, interview and accept the ramp position from AC. Do the job, accept the pay, do the job as required by the company, accept the pay. Is this too hard to follow.....

If you disagree, leave.

Why is this a tricky business for some mind's.

First of all, it's in the best interest of an employer to negotiate with employees in good faith if they would like to avoid high turnover and the significant costs associated with it. But beyond that, is it really unreasonable for people to negotiate with their employers over wages? People negotiate all the time across all industries. In my opinion, if AC management had set the appropriate tone at the top (i.e not hand out multi-million dollar bonuses to executives, while running significant financial losses), I think you would see less bitterness from staff during the negotiating process. And as for this...

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 131):

Sorry my friend, your cause is simply a non event if you you want to go that route. Do you really thing your right is that big??? If you claim a right then you agree to obligations. IN you case I suggest the only thing we Canadians accept is a decent level of service,

I'd suggest referring to some historical and recent events such as the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire or the recent controversies involving Foxconn in Asia. While I agree that there are many unions that have lost their way, to say that the right to assemble / strike is a "non event" ignores the realities that existed in the past and still exist today in many parts of the world.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: sbworcs
Posted 2012-03-25 01:42:59 and read 4713 times.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 113):
Management deserves the union they get,

And surely the Union members / leaders get the Management they deserve?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2012-03-25 01:54:09 and read 4712 times.

Quoting sbworcs (Reply 139):
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 113):
Management deserves the union they get,

And surely the Union members / leaders get the Management they deserve?

Absolutely!!

There can be militant management and unions.

[Edited 2012-03-25 02:16:20]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: jamincan
Posted 2012-03-25 05:11:01 and read 4638 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 130):
So find a better place. Is this hard to understand? Nobody is keeping you there. Are you so hopeless you can speake up with your feet? Its not an insult but a challenge....dude get your ass moving!!!


It is a reasonably simply thing. Apply, interview and accept the ramp position from AC. Do the job, accept the pay, do the job as required by the company, accept the pay. Is this too hard to follow.....

If you disagree, leave.

Why is this a tricky business for some mind's.

That does seem a lot simpler for Air Canada, but unions exist for a reason. With unionized employees, Air Canada simply does not have the right to make such decisions unilaterally. They must negotiate contracts with the union, and if the union isn't pleased with what Air Canada is offering, they are entitled to collective action. You might find it frustrating and disagree with their position, but that's the way it works. Sorry that this seems too tricky for you to follow.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-03-25 07:11:21 and read 4554 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 116):
Sorry unions at AC. You lost all of your credibility and should be allowed/forced to dismantle. As Canadians we have no need of you. You delivery bad, bad service.
AC's been operating just fine until now, which suggests that they do not, in fact, deliver "bad, bad service". The unions area acting within their rights, so I don't see where the issue of credibility has come from. Do I agree with the concept of unions? Not really. Are they legal? Absolutely.

Union tactics have been known for years. Its up to AC to figure out how to deal with the consequences everytime it tries to run roughshod over them.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 118):
Quoting idjim319 (Reply 116):
Why?

Because it's a fundamental right.

Exactly.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 119):
If you really believe your job is that tricky then you maybe need to branch out in the world!

There's no need to belittle other peoples' jobs or abilities. I don't know what you do. And frankly, I m not interested either. As long as people do their job and do it well, that's about all that matters. As noted above, AC's baggage handlers have been doing their job well enough until now.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 120):
The government has right on the behalf of its citizens to act in a way to protect the majority and within the rules of law. And thank god they have.

No. That's called tyranny of the majority. The government has the right to act on behalf of its citizens (majority/minority irrelevant) in a way that respects everybody's rights. In this case, it is riding roughshod over a certain group (your own statement implies it a minority). That is the crux of the argument.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 123):
If AC operating trumps a strike or a lockout which is legal then the government should buy it back and operate it themselves.

Or create contingency plans. Its not like they haven't known about labor problems at Air Canada.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 120):
Your union are a band of fools and I totally agree with the Minister's right to intervene.

You have a right to agree but you don't have a right (on this board, not in general - last thing I want is an Ezra Levant piece on me) to go around calling anyone a fool. As for your agreeing with her, it doesn't make her right (no pun intended). You can support her decision, but for the most part, she is interfering in the affairs of a private company, which she herself has pledged not to do when it suits her (Avios). As others have pointed out, if AC is an essential service, either nationalize it, or start paying the essential service premium. After all, this country does offer a premium to all essential service employees.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
I hope you take an economics course at u of t in your studies. At that point you'll actually learn the supply and demand curve and then you'll learn about market distortion

I've studied economics. I also know that textbook economics don't apply in the real world. The aviation industry, in particular, does not operate on a demand and supply model. If it did, the Canadian government wouldn't put so many barriers to entry for foreign carriers (thats an entire supply component thats being restricted). That distortion was done to protect Canadian workers (or so we were told). Now, we're watching those workers take a battering and being belittled in a media attack. Economics? Anyone working in aviation in Canada would be better off studying politics and recent Canadian history. Economics - especially of the Econ 101 supply/demand variety - does not apply in the Canadian aviation sector.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 124):
Sorry....I prefer to fly efficiently, on time, with clean cabin environment, with my bags on time, then deal with mindless underwork fools who think they have a tough time at work.

Then fly an airline that does not have well documented labor unrest. Your preferrences are irrelevant if the company is at war with its employees. Preferrences and choices are precisely that.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 127):
If you accept these rights, do you then accept not stranding parents in airplanes with children?. Do you also accept not causing deliberately one man to miss an interview --- the job of his life in Singapore. Do you also accept that you caused a family to miss their dear mama's funeral in Edinburgh?

Those people could have missed all those things for any number of reasons - weather, tech problems - whatever. Employers are generally quite considerate when you're coming in from halfway around the world. I know. I've been in that situation more than once. Its a red herring. If they think you're a good fit for the job, they won't hold an airlines operational problems against you - they will make sure they assess you on your merits and your fit for the job. As for the rest, its unfortunate that they will be inconvenienced, but its unfair to blame only the baggage handlers. Takes two to tango.

AC has played its part in creating toxic relations and labor unrest. Blame them too, instead of just the ramp worker. The ramp workers are not the only one responsible for AC's wobbling nature over the past few years. IF those people miss those activities, the responsibility goes right through both the unions and the company and right up to the CEO - isn't that why he is compensated so heavily for running a company that is now the posterboy of toxic labor relations?

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 130):
Then do. Nobody is stopping you.. whatever grad school you find that accepts your undergrad degree.


If its a Canadian degree, it will be recognized/accepted across the english-speaking world. Having the right grades is another issue altogether. That said, if he does end up studying abroad , he'll likely face some problems on his return to Canada. Canadian management schools have an amazing habit of producing HR specialists who've never heard of INSEAD, IMD etc. Makes one wonder about the calibre/worldliness of the Canadian HR folk dealing with employees these days.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 130):
It is a reasonably simply thing. Apply, interview and accept the ramp position from AC. Do the job, accept the pay, do the job as required by the company, accept the pay. Is this too hard to follow.....

Sure, but most positions come with a contract and when that contract is constantly revised away from initial employee expectations (set, it should be noted, by the company in the first place), then there will be conflict. In this case, the conflict lies in past actions, more than in present ones.

[Edited 2012-03-25 07:16:56]

[Edited 2012-03-25 07:18:21]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: challengerdan
Posted 2012-03-25 08:15:12 and read 4494 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 100):
Besides, shouldn't these employees be protesting Aveos management? Typical that they blame Air Canada. AC sent 91% of their major work to Aveos and they still went belly up. Air Canada is easy to blame, but I think Aveos management is getting off easy by employees considering they could not diversify their customer base, and reduce costs.

They could not diversifiy their customer base because AC sold them a poisened operation. How they managed to package it so that it didn't smell rotten from a mile away is the real question, hence the nice premiums Milton has been getting, and why Aveos employees are furious against AC. Also notable is the fact that the first indication that Aveos was going into CCAA was from an AC memo and that they were still AC employees in 2011.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 97):
Totally incorrect. When was AC's last strike that shut down the airline? I think it was sometime in the 1990s. Many airlines have had far more frequent strikes than AC.

CSA in 2011, Air Canada kept operations going. Lasted 3 days. Pilots in 1998. I think operations were suspended. Less than a month. I would have to look it up.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 100):
Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
Maybe if AC had an ACPA, a CUPE, a CAW or an IAMAW representative on their Board of Directors thwy wouldn't be that far apart.

Correct, they would be carving up every bit of the airlines operating revenues to distribute to employees until the airline could no longer operate.
WS seems to be doing just fine with an FA on its Board of directors.


Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 100):
Then they would run to the government for more money. Reminds me of the mafia.

That AC has no problem doing just that already. see here http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/07/...r-canada-gets-bailout-from-ottawa/ (...) Air Canada has secured a 1.02 billion Canadian dollar ($922 million) lifeline with some help from the federal government, giving the carrier a crucial infusion of cash to help it survive the recession and avoid another trip through bankruptcy protection, The Globe and Mail reported.

Ottawa provided a quarter of that.

You can look up more examples if you want the whole story.

Note that all AC unions negotiated "cost neutral" deals in this same period (2009). And that's after imposed agreements from CCAA in 2003, mind you.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 100):

Your arguments are littered with comments of entitlement. None of these workers are entitled to anything except to be paid the wage agreed upon in their contract in return for the agreed upon number of work hours.

Except that the wage agreed is changing now. There is a procedure in place for it to be resolved and because of government intervention it cannot be used.


So...loading bags is no rocket science, fixing airplanes is no different than fixing bicycles, a customer service agent at the airport is about as important as a greeter at Walmart and a pilot is basically an adult that is living a child's dream, let's all work @ 12$/hour. After all the jobs losses lately in Canada, AC is sure to have lots of resumes on their desks. Unemployment insurance only lasts 40 weeks, you know.
And as a reward for its 5 millions retention bonus, Calin can send me a Thank you Card for Christmas.

[Edited 2012-03-25 08:21:00]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: challengerdan
Posted 2012-03-25 08:22:58 and read 4474 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 142):
Anyone working in aviation in Canada would be better off studying politics and recent Canadian history. Economics - especially of the Econ 101 supply/demand variety - does not apply in the Canadian aviation sector.

Well said.
All of your post above.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-25 08:34:10 and read 4445 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 142):

No. That's called tyranny of the majority. The government has the right to act on behalf of its citizens (majority/minority irrelevant) in a way that respects everybody's rights. In this case, it is riding roughshod over a certain group (your own statement implies it a minority). That is the crux of the argument.

Spot on! Couldn't agree more.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 142):
If they think you're a good fit for the job, they won't hold an airlines operational problems against you - they will make sure they assess you on your merits and your fit for the job. As for the rest, its unfortunate that they will be inconvenienced, but its unfair to blame only the baggage handlers. Takes two to tango.

Exactly.

I wonder why idjim319 chose to overlook the fact that earlier this month, AC management made a decision to lock out its pilots. Double standard! Maybe the management doesn't care about peoples vacation plans as much as you think they do, after all.

[Edited 2012-03-25 08:37:51]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: swissy
Posted 2012-03-25 09:12:46 and read 4402 times.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 142):
AC has played its part in creating toxic relations and labor unrest. Blame them too, instead of just the ramp worker.

Sure you need two for the tango... both sides are guilty for the sour mood that is out there. I also have no issue if these union workers exercise their right within their AGREED collective agreement...

How many of you had a chance to participate on a new bargaining between union/management?

Cheerios,

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: challengerdan
Posted 2012-03-25 09:24:07 and read 4400 times.

Quoting swissy (Reply 146):
I also have no issue if these union workers exercise their right within their AGREED collective agreement...

This is exactly what they were going to do. IAMAW gave the company notice, 144 hours instead of the standard 72, about a strike. The company didn't sit with them for a last minute bargain. Instead, they give ACPA a lock-out notice of 72 hours.
And then comes Government intervention.
They submited the matter to the CIRB to evaluate whether AC could be considered essential service in a health and safety perspective (which is what essential should be as per the law). Without even waiting for the CIRB decision, they then pass a bill to have an arbitrator, appointed by the government, to chose which side has the most fair offer.

Talk about market rate and supply/demand now.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: WestJet747
Posted 2012-03-25 10:24:56 and read 4322 times.

Irrespective of my own views on collective bargaining, there will never be any sort of equilibrium given the current paradigm for hating one another (as so clearly illustrated in this thread). At the end of the day, most union workers don't understand where management comes from, and most management doesn't understand where union workers come from. This rampant closed-mindedness is why we find ourselves engaged in this debate. Instead of quoting every other post, here are a few things I would note:

- It's easy for the rampies here to say "you don't get how hard and physically demanding our job is" (which I in no way doubt, I'm a real wimp when it comes to cold temperatures), but on the flip side, it's obvious they don't get how difficult it is to pay your own way through university, study hard as hell for 4-5 YEARS, and come out the back-end with $50,000 in student loans/debt

- There is a serious misconception that striking is a human right. I shouldn't have to explain this, but a human right is a right granted for simply being human. Striking is NOT something we are entitled to for being alive; things such as health, freedom of conscience, freedom of thought, right to a fair trial, etc are human rights. Striking is a labour right, and is not equal to everyone, like it or not.

- Some in this thread seem very offended by the statement "If you don't like it, then quit". I can see how this can be taken the wrong way if taken at face value. I don't think the posters who have said that mean you should find a different line of work, but rather just leave the company and take up the job you love at an airline that respects your value more. You might love being a ramp attendant, but if you feel your relationship with AC management is not beneficial to your well-being, then apply to Porter who is hiring in 7 different cities right now.

- Lastly, a small anecdote: I worked for a steel company as a purchaser and materials manager, controlling millions of dollars of materials every week. I also happened to make less than the unionized workers down on the floor who sat in cranes or stood at slitters watching gauges all day. What I saw first-hand was that union leaders consistently convince their paying members that they are entitled, the members in turn believe the elected representatives (because they elected them), and it the fosters a common belief that they are more special for this reason or that, whatever is may be. I don't blame the members because I truly believe they are mislead by those representing them, and that in itself is very toxic.

Quoting sbworcs (Reply 139):
And surely the Union members / leaders get the Management they deserve?

  

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 142):
That said, if he does end up studying abroad , he'll likely face some problems on his return to Canada. Canadian management schools have an amazing habit of producing HR specialists who've never heard of INSEAD, IMD etc. Makes one wonder about the calibre/worldliness of the Canadian HR folk dealing with employees these days.

Entirely correct. Although I would tend to err on the side of calling it a North American habit as opposed to just a Canadian habit. We tend to live in a microcosm that doesn't fully recognize the distinction of great business school's like INSEAD, LSE, or HEC Paris.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
How they managed to package it so that it didn't smell rotten from a mile away is the real question

They didn't. Any degree of due diligence would have uncovered any shortcoming of the business. It's not AC selling unethically, it's simply a case of buyer's remorse as a result of their own inability to manage the transaction effectively.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ac7e7
Posted 2012-03-25 10:31:35 and read 4306 times.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
They could not diversifiy their customer base because AC sold them a poisened operation.

Care to elaborate? Broad statement with no facts to back it up. Aveos had all the infrastructure, skilled labour, and initial revenue stream from AC. They had to diversify their customer base. At some point, the kids need to leave home and make it on their own. Aeroplan and Chorus have done a good job expanding their business, why couldn't Aveos? Aveos management is getting off easy, and AC is getting the blame. A bankrupt business is blaming THEIR ONLY CUSTOMER. How ridiculous is this? A company has one client who believes in them, and the company blames them for not sending them more business. Does nobody take responsibility for their own actions anymore? Aveos is gone today because of high labout costs relative to their competition, and management unable to secure new clients.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
WS seems to be doing just fine with an FA on its Board of directors.

True, they have an employee representative, but Westjet doesn't have unionized employees.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
That AC has no problem doing just that already. see here http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/07/...r-canada-gets-bailout-from-ottawa/ (...) Air Canada has secured a 1.02 billion Canadian dollar ($922 million) lifeline with some help from the federal government, giving the carrier a crucial infusion of cash to help it survive the recession and avoid another trip through bankruptcy protection, The Globe and Mail reported.

You are absolutely correct. The airline's business model no longer works. The airline can't make money on their own, and as soon as there is a speed bump in the economy the airline is in trouble. It doesn't matter what concessions were made back in the day, the fact of the matter is, they weren't enough.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
Except that the wage agreed is changing now. There is a procedure in place for it to be resolved and because of government intervention it cannot be used.

I agree. The government should not have gotten involved. However would you have been happy if AC locked out their employees rather then the employees going on strike? Even though it would have been their right as well? I think not.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
So...loading bags is no rocket science, fixing airplanes is no different than fixing bicycles, a customer service agent at the airport is about as important as a greeter at Walmart and a pilot is basically an adult that is living a child's dream, let's all work @ 12$/hour. After all the jobs losses lately in Canada, AC is sure to have lots of resumes on their desks. Unemployment insurance only lasts 40 weeks, you know. And as a reward for its 5 millions retention bonus, Calin can send me a Thank you Card for Christmas.

So what is a fair wage? Rather then answering the question I posed in my last post, you make a statement like this? Do you believe a pilot should be making $12/hr? No? Is it because their job requires more skill then loading baggage? Oh, so there should be a difference in wages for different job? How much should the CEO be making? What do you believe is fair? Remember, you have to compensate him/her enough money to deal with all the unions, public scrutiny, banks, venture capitalists, competition, etc etc etc. whereas a baggage handler is really just general labour. Not everyone can be a CEO, whereas my grandmother can load baggage.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-25 10:39:14 and read 4299 times.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 148):
but on the flip side, it's obvious they don't get how difficult it is to pay your own way through university, study hard as hell for 4-5 YEARS, and come out the back-end with $50,000 in student loans/debt

Nobody has ever argued otherwise. I go to university and pay for my own tuition. I'm trying to refute someone's claim that ramp work is easy, which it is not.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 148):
striking is a human right. I shouldn't have to explain this, but a human right is a right granted for simply being human.

Freedom of assembly is a human right.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 148):
Striking is a labour right, and is not equal to everyone, like it or not

The argument here is whether or not striking is a right in the context of labor issues in this country. The reason why not everyone in the country is in a position to strike is because not everyone works in a unionized environment. However, if they choose to do so, then they have the right to legally strike.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 148):
"If you don't like it, then quit".

Again, I already know that. One can also conversely argue that if AC chooses to do business in this country, then it should respect the country's labor laws or change names and set up shop somewhere else with weaker labor laws.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: whiteguy
Posted 2012-03-25 10:44:47 and read 4291 times.

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 149):
Care to elaborate? Broad statement with no facts to back it up. Aveos had all the infrastructure, skilled labour, and initial revenue stream from AC. They had to diversify their customer base. At some point, the kids need to leave home and make it on their own. Aeroplan and Chorus have done a good job expanding their business, why couldn't Aveos? Aveos management is getting off easy, and AC is getting the blame. A bankrupt business is blaming THEIR ONLY CUSTOMER. How ridiculous is this? A company has one client who believes in them, and the company blames them for not sending them more business. Does nobody take responsibility for their own actions anymore? Aveos is gone today because of high labout costs relative to their competition, and management unable to secure new clients.

In a perfect world diversifying is great but your dealing with Air Canada here. Look at Jazz. Jazz is diversifying because the writing is on the wall. They started a contract to fly B757s for Thomas Cook. Good for them right? Look what happened, AC is now punishing them. Who got the contract to fly Q400s out of Toronto Island? Not Jazz, even though the same aircraft were being delivered and crews were trained. Jazz also had the number of aircraft reduced in the CPA. Employees are now also being punished by having their travel privileges reduced. They travel behind all AC employees. What's next?

It's easy for everyone to say "just diversify" but there are repercussions for doing so!

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: WestJet747
Posted 2012-03-25 11:15:11 and read 4307 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 150):
Freedom of assembly is a human right.

It is, and I would really love to debate the definition of "assembly" in this context, but I think we would have to take it over to Non-Av.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 150):
The reason why not everyone in the country is in a position to strike is because not everyone works in a unionized environment.

I was speaking with respect to all those within the unionized environment. Not all unionized employees across all industries have equal rights to take job action.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 150):
One can also conversely argue that if AC chooses to do business in this country, then it should respect the country's labor laws or change names and set up shop somewhere else with weaker labor laws.

I argued this much earlier in the thread: There is a difference between unethical and illegal. Whether you agree or disagree with AC's practices, they have not broken any laws as established by our labour code.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 151):
It's easy for everyone to say "just diversify" but there are repercussions for doing so!

Your statement is only true to Jazz. Very few companies operate under the type of contractual obligations that Jazz does. For your average business there are no repercussions to diversification. If there is, then they are heavily outweighed by the positive effects.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2012-03-25 11:53:48 and read 4241 times.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 148):
Irrespective of my own views on collective bargaining, there will never be any sort of equilibrium given the current paradigm for hating one another (as so clearly illustrated in this thread). At the end of the day, most union workers don't understand where management comes from, and most management doesn't understand where union workers come from. This rampant closed-mindedness is why we find ourselves engaged in this debate


  

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 148):
- There is a serious misconception that striking is a human right. I shouldn't have to explain this, but a human right is a right granted for simply being human. Striking is NOT something we are entitled to for being alive; things such as health, freedom of conscience, freedom of thought, right to a fair trial, etc are human rights. Striking is a labour right, and is not equal to everyone, like it or not


  

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 148):
- Some in this thread seem very offended by the statement "If you don't like it, then quit". I can see how this can be taken the wrong way if taken at face value. I don't think the posters who have said that mean you should find a different line of work, but rather just leave the company and take up the job you love at an airline that respects your value more. You might love being a ramp attendant, but if you feel your relationship with AC management is not beneficial to your well-being, then apply to Porter who is hiring in 7 different cities right now.


While I agree with you that if you're unhappy with the company you work for, options for other employers are many however, the problem is that you cannot take your seniority with you, and for many if not most or even all Union employees, seniority is everything.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 150):
Freedom of assembly is a human right


By that argument, so is having a contract purchased by a customer that is to be fulfilled by employees who have a contract with an employer to do their job and not walk off the job without notice and illegally.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 150):
The argument here is whether or not striking is a right in the context of labor issues in this country. The reason why not everyone in the country is in a position to strike is because not everyone works in a unionized environment. However, if they choose to do so, then they have the right to legally strike.


"Legally strike" are the keywords here, this was not a legal strike, not now and not before the legislation was passed. While I can understand the plight of the employees, taking illegal job action was not the smart thing to do, if they or we feel that the new legislation is indeed a "human right" or unconstitutional, that is for the courts to decide and there are avenues in place to challenge the legislation. Until then, the smart thing to do is stay cool, do your job and let the Union do theirs.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2012-03-25 11:56:38 and read 4232 times.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 152):
It is, and I would really love to debate the definition of "assembly" in this context, but I think we would have to take it over to Non-Av.

Agreed ... by all means the employees should assemble, on their own time in a peaceful manner.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-03-25 12:08:41 and read 4216 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 150):

It doesn't matter if ramp work is easy or its not...the crux is, "what is it worth?"....and as it turns out, not a lot. A few years ago, I could have gotten a job fueling planes....for just over 10 bucks per hour. That is a stinking wage, but some are willing to do the job for that wage so that's what the job is worth.

It wasn't worth it to me, so I didn't take the job...but there were more than enough people that were...and did. I haven't heard of any planes falling out of the skies because of crappy work by these guys so they are competent at their jobs. That last I heard is that their jobs are now worth about 12 bucks per hour.

Basically, as long as enough people are willing to work for that wage, then that's what the job is worth...and seniority means squat...as does the wage of the CEO.

That goes for any job in any industry. Furthermore, just because a job is worth x at one time, that doesn't mean the job will always be worth as much. While there is a right to assemble, there is no right for any wage above the minimum. For that, market forces prevail. When an employer is doing well, maybe they can afford more...but when they are doing poorly, wages may have to go down.

That doesn't mean that an employer is always fair, right, smart or even moral...but that's irrelevant. As long as what they do is legal, there is little recourse except to get a job somewhere else that meets your standards for wages and fairness.

Sadly, it often takes wholesale quitting to improve conditions and that means little to those who have quit. The moral is; look after yourself. You cannot depend on your employer or anyone else to look after your best interests...and that includes your unions. You can only really count on you. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.

Why work for a company that you hate and hates you?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: whiteguy
Posted 2012-03-25 12:20:44 and read 4195 times.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 152):
Your statement is only true to Jazz. Very few companies operate under the type of contractual obligations that Jazz does. For your average business there are no repercussions to diversification. If there is, then they are heavily outweighed by the positive effects.

Sure but we are talking about AC and companies they contract to not other businesses. So what was stopping AC from doing the same to AVEOS? Guess we'll never know.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-25 12:23:39 and read 4198 times.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 152):
Not all unionized employees across all industries have equal rights to take job action.

AC isn't an essential service.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 152):
Whether you agree or disagree with AC's practices, they have not broken any laws as established by our labour code.

While what AC did was not illegal per se, my argument was intended to address the whole "If you don't like it, leave it" attitude that is only being applied to the workers.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 153):
By that argument, so is having a contract purchased by a customer that is to be fulfilled by employees who have a contract with an employer to do their job and not walk off the job without notice and illegally
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 153):
"Legally strike" are the keywords here, this was not a legal strike, not now and not before the legislation was passed. While I can understand the plight of the employees, taking illegal job action was not the smart thing to do, if they or we feel that the new legislation is indeed a "human right" or unconstitutional, that is for the courts to decide and there are avenues in place to challenge the legislation. Until then, the smart thing to do is stay cool, do your job and let the Union do theirs.

If you look at one of my first replies in this thread, I knew that what happened a few days ago was illegal and described it as such. I didn't condone it.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-03-25 12:27:51 and read 4192 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 155):
It doesn't matter if ramp work is easy or its not...the crux is, "what is it worth?"....and as it turns out, not a lot. A few years ago, I could have gotten a job fueling planes....for just over 10 bucks per hour. That is a stinking wage, but some are willing to do the job for that wage so that's what the job is worth.

When have I argued otherwise? My original argument was to refute the unfounded claims that ramp work is easy. And even if you don't think the job is worthy of more pay, that still doesn't change the fact that the union has the right to collectively bargain and strike.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2012-03-25 12:48:30 and read 4170 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 157):
AC isn't an essential service.

This is what does trouble me though, the Government passes legislation deeming a service essential stripping striking rights, then another service gets deemed essential, and then another, and so on. One would think that this should be a major campaign in the next election. While I don't neccisairly agree with (legal) strikes for the most part, it is an essential tool in collective barganing as is the possibility of lock outs, once that tool has been taken away, employees have very little left in which to negotiate their contract demands.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 157):
If you look at one of my first replies in this thread, I knew that what happened a few days ago was illegal and described it as such. I didn't condone it.

I wasn't suggesting that you did  

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: WestJet747
Posted 2012-03-25 13:20:32 and read 4136 times.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 153):
however, the problem is that you cannot take your seniority with you, and for many if not most or even all Union employees, seniority is everything.

Yes, you're right. I hadn't considered that. I'll blame it on my ignorance of never having been a union member.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 155):
the crux is, "what is it worth?"
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 155):
and seniority means squat...as does the wage of the CEO

This bugs the hell out of me. On one side of the equation it is "what will they work for", while on the other side it is "what will we pay them". This is pretty much what fuels that annoying Occupy Movement fire. I'm not an executive, but I would find it hard to justify accepting the cash that some of them do given the circumstances. Only blue chip CEOs like Indra Nooyi, Muhtar Kent, or Tim Cook should ever fathom accepting the type of bonus Calin is about to receive. In fact, Nooyi's total bonuses last year were $2 million LESS than what Calin is receiving, yet her company's operating income is almost as high as AC's total revenue!   

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 157):
AC isn't an essential service.

That is correct. But I would argue that for a flag carrier they are far more "essential" than other failed national carriers such as Malev. The economical ramifications of the country are much larger in this case, hence the Conservative Government's decision. Although the view was clearly not shared as I think the vote in parliament was something like 155-124?

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ac7e7
Posted 2012-03-25 17:56:03 and read 4010 times.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 151):

The Toronto Island Airport contract won by Sky Regional is not a punishment of Chorus by AC. I would see it as Air Canada diversifying their regional base as not to have all of their regional flying done by one supplier. Having said that, we are talking about one route.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-03-25 21:56:39 and read 3885 times.

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 161):
Quoting whiteguy (Reply 151):


The Toronto Island Airport contract won by Sky Regional is not a punishment of Chorus by AC. I would see it as Air Canada diversifying their regional base as not to have all of their regional flying done by one supplier. Having said that, we are talking about one route.

But its highly restrictive since SkyRegional and Jazz cannot route swap or share equipement. SkyRegional can only fly the YUL-YTZ route and only with the Q400 (since that is all they have, and that is what it takes to compete with PD). Based on the reported 30% LF's on SkyRegional, it would seem the AC Express (Jazz) DH1's are a better fit for the market

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-03-25 23:29:26 and read 3835 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 158):
When have I argued otherwise? My original argument was to refute the unfounded claims that ramp work is easy. And even if you don't think the job is worthy of more pay, that still doesn't change the fact that the union has the right to collectively bargain and strike.

I have no idea what the job is worth...all I know is what was offered. What I think the job is worth is completely irrelevant...since it will never be nearly enough for me to consider it and I doubt I'll need to hire rampies in the near future.

The union can do whatever is within its legal right to do...as can the employer. The thing is, even with a short strike, it may take years to make up the wages lost during the strike...no matter how big the raise.

It really doesn't seem to me to be very good for ones job security to ask for more money from a company already losing money...but hey, strike away...work to rule...whatever floats their boat.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 160):
This bugs the hell out of me. On one side of the equation it is "what will they work for", while on the other side it is "what will we pay them".

It can bug you but that doesn't change the reality. If someone is competent and willing to do your job for less, it's only a matter of time before people are being paid less to do your job.

It doesn't matter what the execs make...it has nothing to do with what wage a person is hired at. Execs make a ton of money....is it right? I don't know but I take a job based on my salary, not anyone else's.

Why work for a company that is willing to screw over the workers? Why work for a company that will give raises to execs while asking employees to take cuts? That company will never respect the workers no matter how much they may win in the next contract, which means every contract will end in a fight.

Sounds very stressful to me. I'd rather have some back up plans so I'm not forced to stay in a job where I'm not respected.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: challengerdan
Posted 2012-03-26 02:14:05 and read 3768 times.

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 149):
Quoting challengerdan (Reply 143):
They could not diversifiy their customer base because AC sold them a poisened operation.

Care to elaborate? Broad statement with no facts to back it up. Aveos had all the infrastructure, skilled labour, and initial revenue stream from AC.

You forgot to add labor cost. You also forget to add Maintenance schedule intervals escalation in the works. You forgot to add same collective agreement. You forgot to add that AC is asking left and right for RFP even though thay have a contract up to 2013.
ACTS was sold in Oct 2007. The collective agreement of ACTS employees was still the one from AC. In fact the business was first sold without any employees, and eventually employees started to officially transfer from one employer to the other from April to July 2011. With a CBA negotiated by AC in 2003 and renegotiated in 2009. The same agreement that AC doesn't seem to be able to settle with the very same issues regarding costs with their own workers (rampies are covered by this agreement too).
Aveos managed to get a few contracts outside of AC, but for components (landing gear end engines being the most part). Interestingly, the only complete aircrafts other than AC's that I have seen going to the Aveos hangar in YUL in the last 3 years are CC-150 Polaris from the RCAF.

Also this article from a french media from Quebec shows the picture of a poster that was put up in AC HQ. Needless to say AC was trying to get away from Aveos; in a way, Aveos was AC's prodigal son. http://tvanouvelles.ca/lcn/economie/...hives/2012/03/20120325-183418.html

[Edited 2012-03-26 02:15:19]

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2012-03-26 05:15:12 and read 3699 times.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 152):
It is, and I would really love to debate the definition of "assembly" in this context, but I think we would have to take it over to Non-Av.

Assembly is when the strike is legal and that was the case before, this is an illegal walk off and not one is disputing that.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 159):
This is what does trouble me though, the Government passes legislation deeming a service essential stripping striking rights, then another service gets deemed essential, and then another, and so on.

They aren't doing that, the government whom has a majority is passing back to work legislation because of the fact that a work stoppage at AC hurts the Canadian economy, IIRC a similar thing happened down here when QF's pilots were locked out. To some including me that is a bogus claim coming from a conservative government.

My mum whom was a member of ONA said that essential services for that union mandated or not was in the contract, and usually management pays extra for that. Something I don't think AC's management is willing or should do.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2012-03-26 05:52:53 and read 3688 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 129):
If those are the ramifications of what is a legal strike

It wasn't a legal strike....it was a 'wildcat' strike...three yahoos getting suspended for being rude to a customer and their co-workers walking off the job to 'support' them. They even refused the order from THEIR own union to return to work. Stupid is as stupid does.

I've worked the ramp and it boiled down to 20% of the rampies doing 80% of the work because Joe doesn't do this and Bob doesn't do that. I guess I was naive as a college student thinking unions were egalitarian utopias...some are more equal than others. It's one thing busting my butt so my boss can get rich but it's entirely different when I am busting my butt so my 'equal' can be fat and lazy.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: jamincan
Posted 2012-03-26 06:14:58 and read 3663 times.

With regard to essential services, StarAC17 is absolutely right. Police/Firefighters/EMS get paid extra for being classified an essential service as compensation for the restrictions on collective action. If the federal government is going to consider AC operations an essential service, they really out to classify it as such and the employees should be entitled to additional pay. It also begs the question why an essential service is being operated by a single private corporation in the first place.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: swissy
Posted 2012-03-26 13:59:06 and read 3481 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 155):
It doesn't matter if ramp work is easy or its not...the crux is, "what is it worth?"

For WS?? 0.00$ would work just fine for them  , reality is, the lesser the better...hence why I said earlier to all WS and LLC fan boys that these "super" airlines rock and all the others suck... on the one side they support these "poor" union guys and on the other side they contradict them self by choosing an airline like WS...

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 166):
Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 129):
If those are the ramifications of what is a legal strike

It wasn't a legal strike....it was a 'wildcat' strike...three yahoos getting suspended for being rude to a customer and their co-workers walking off the job to 'support' them. They even refused the order from THEIR own union to return to work. Stupid is as stupid does.

Could not have it said better  
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 166):
I've worked the ramp and it boiled down to 20% of the rampies doing 80% of the work because Joe doesn't do this and Bob doesn't do that. I guess I was naive as a college student thinking unions were egalitarian utopias...some are more equal than others. It's one thing busting my butt so my boss can get rich but it's entirely different when I am busting my butt so my 'equal' can be fat and lazy.

I lasted 5 months in a union job and I walked away... in my younger years... I am way better off being exposed to reality, negotiate my own salary/benefits then be at the mercy of any "all mighty" collective agreement ...

Cheerios,

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: idjim319
Posted 2012-03-26 21:43:46 and read 3314 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 134):
Air Canada is headquartered and based in a country that guarantees basic human rights such as the right to assemble and
[quote=ElPistolero,reply=142]There's no need to belittle other peoples' jobs or abilities. I don't know what you do. And frankly, I m not interested either. As long as people do their job and do it well, that's about all that matters. As noted above, AC's baggage handlers have been doing their job well enough until now.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 142):
I've studied economics. I also know that textbook economics don't apply in the real world.
Well I have been quoted. Let's not mix words. The unionized staff of AC had better look up and see reality speaking to them in white light speaking reality! Honestly people get it together.


The aviation industry, in particular, does not operate on a demand and supply model. If it did, the Canadian government wouldn't put so many barriers to entry for foreign carriers (thats an entire supply component thats being restricted).

Ya no, seriously. You deliver product or service below standards, or you deliver it above cost --- you lose??? THis market except in a few markets is not that distorted, especially internationally. DL and AA or fierce and deliver a working market. AA, AF, KLM, etc in Europe are more than capable. Shall we actually talk about the Asian carriers?? Sorry there is a functioning supply and demand model running -- except for government interference. I think you'll find the market failures are with foreign carries i.e. EK having weird preferences that the Canadian government and others should look out for.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 155):
It doesn't matter if ramp work is easy or its not...the crux is, "what is it worth?"....and as it turns out, not a lot. A few years ago, I could have gotten a job fueling planes....for just over 10 bucks per hour. That is a stinking wage, but some are willing to do the job for that wage so that's what the job is worth.

So quite right. The market doesn't think loading bags is that challenging .... regardless of your thoughts. You always have a choice you know! ......

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 155):
Basically, as long as enough people are willing to work for that wage, then that's what the job is worth...and seniority means squat...as does the wage of the CEO.

Yup. face facts about what you should demand for compensation. Please be reminded you aren't locked to this job -- if you want more then go get it! I'm cheering you on.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 166):
It wasn't a legal strike....it was a 'wildcat' strike...three yahoos getting suspended for being rude to a customer and their co-workers walking off the job to 'support' them. They even refused the order from THEIR own union to return to work. Stupid is as stupid does.

Perfect quote. Stupid is as stupid does. Please tell me why these same folks deserve a pay raise. Actually please tell me why these stupid folk's union negotiated that they weren't fired.... it blows my mind. Your union just painted you all hard working folks with the same nasty, dirty brush.

I've worked the ramp and it boiled down to 20% of the rampies doing 80% of the work because Joe doesn't do this and



Bob doesn't do that. I guess I was naive as a college student thinking unions were egalitarian utopias...some are more



equal than others. It's one thing busting my butt so my boss can get rich but it's entirely different when I am busting my
butt so my 'equal' can be fat and lazy.

Yup, nothing more to say about this gang.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ANM604
Posted 2012-03-27 00:04:16 and read 3272 times.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
That's the flight benefits.

Which, coincidentally, are still better then nothing. Quit whining, really.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
I dare you to walk up to them and convince that life is going to be better now that then can get themselves a real job.

I would, but I don't belong to a union, thus I work 5 days a week.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):

It's a separate company, it doesn't matter where or what they got their money from.

Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
I would really like to know what's your line of work...

I'm not going to tell you my line of work, but I can tell you this: I busted my ass working three jobs (Surprise! one of which was working on the ramp @ YVR, so don't bother lecturing me on how difficult it is, because it really isn't rocket science) to put *myself* through University so I didn't have to rely on a union to dictate what my future income would be. I got an education so I didn't have to worry about going on strike, or how I was going to pay rent with my current wage. I can now live quite comfortably, and I have myself to thank for that. Life doesn't sit and wait for you to come grab it, like the saying goes "to the victor goes the spoils". Anyone looking for sympathy because their job only pays $xx.xx/hour, should get out there and do something to change it, not whine that the company should be paying them more.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2012-03-27 14:33:41 and read 3086 times.

Quoting idjim319 (Reply 169):
Ya no, seriously. You deliver product or service below standards, or you deliver it above cost --- you lose??? THis market except in a few markets is not that distorted, especially internationally. DL and AA or fierce and deliver a working market. AA, AF, KLM, etc in Europe are more than capable. Shall we actually talk about the Asian carriers?? Sorry there is a functioning supply and demand model running -- except for government interference. I think you'll find the market failures are with foreign carries i.e. EK having weird preferences that the Canadian government and others should look out for.

You said it yourself - "There is a functioning supply and demand model running - except for government intereference". Government interference distorts supply and demand.

In any case, this discussion has been had on another thread. The simple truth is that airfares tell their own tale about demand and supply. Prices are the best indicator of competition. Compare Canadian short-haul, medium-haul and long-haul prices to similar routes across the developed world....and make of that what you will.

Topic: RE: Air Canada Ground Employees Walk Off Job At YYZ
Username: challengerdan
Posted 2012-03-27 20:42:05 and read 2985 times.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 170):
(Surprise! one of which was working on the ramp @ YVR, so don't bother lecturing me on how difficult it is, because it really isn't rocket science) to put *myself* through University

I haven't lectured anyone on how difficult it is, because i wouldn't know I have never done it myself. What I see here is that people don't think that it is worth a living wage, and that troubles me. I am grateful I had the chance to get education and I am living rather well right noe, but I do realize that life wasn't as fair for everyone. I think that if you are doing the hard work for someone else to make millions out of it, you should be given consideration. Call me an idealist.

I have worked in union and non-union before, and as a matter of fact I progressed quite faster in the non-union environment were there wasn't any seniority constraints on progression. I stayed there until they started pushing it and I felt they were starting to try to abuse of my hardwork and good will and then moved on. Unfortunately for some, this is not an option.

I paid my education flipping burger, which is all cool when you are a student. Do I think that tossing luggage for an airline is only worth as much as flipping burgers or pouring coffee? Answer is no.

You can trash unions all you want. Fact is if it wasn't for unions, we wouldn't have paid vacations in this country; we would still terminate women before men, just because; wrongful dismissal concept wouldn't exist; the list goes on and on.

Today I work at a unionized shop. I haven't been there for a long time. Sometimes my bosses walk up to me to have a chat about this guy not doing much and that other other guy taking that much more time than anybody else to do a simple task. You know what my answer usually is? DO YOUR F%ING JOB! And that is managing and discipline. And I will keep doing mine. Unions make it harder, it is not a impossible task. It takes rigour and self discipline if you don't want to have the union all over you face. But it is doable. I know at my place we don't have much sympathy for slackers. We hate 'em just as much as my boss does.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 170):
Quoting challengerdan (Reply 89):
That's the flight benefits.

Which, coincidentally, are still better then nothing. Quit whining, really.

Yesterday I gave you 30$/hour, benefits worth 15$/hour + good flight benefits.
Today, things are going bad, so hey, buddy, I gotta cut 10% of your wage, reduce your benefits by 1/3, but because flight benefits don't really cost anything for us, we will now give you an awesome flight benefits package. You figure that's better than nothing, and really, you love your job.
Fast forward 10 years later. I made an average of 8 M a year as your CEO during that 10 year tenure. I haven't given you a raise yet in 10 years, your benefits haven't changed from when they were first cut, and because flight benefits is really only a privilege, not a wage or benefit, I will start playing with service charges and taxes and priorities, and there is nothing you can do about it. You now end-up with average flight benefits. You say "screw this, I am, as a minimum, getting my flight benefits' worth somewhere else in my CBA". ........... No you won't because my buddy in the government won't let you.

This is what it is, in a nutshell. And just so that you know, the two unions involved right now are the pilots, and the IAMAW, which represents baggage handlers but also aircraft mechanics, equipment mechanics, cargo handlers, aircraft cleaners and so on.


Did I mention I do not work for AC?


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