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Topic: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: virginvsbritish
Posted 2012-03-18 10:51:57 and read 11433 times.

Hello,

It seems that Washington Dulles is exploding in terms of new airline service lately. Very recently, Porter Airlines, Eithad, Emirates, and Aeromexico have all announced new services. Also, UA/CO is adding routes such as to DUB and MAN. Do you think this is a trend that will bring even more growth to IAD or just a fad that will lead to early closure of these routes? Please explain. Also, what do you bet to be the next new airline to IAD  

Thanks for your help. As a nerdy Dulles fan I appreciate it  

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: Independence76
Posted 2012-03-18 12:25:00 and read 11233 times.

I personally wouldn't be surprised if Swiss jumped back into IAD. The route was apparently successful when Swissair operated it with an MD-11, but Swiss opened the route with an A332 not too much later and found it to be unprofitable. I can imagine it being started back up again with better success.


One could speculate LOT Polish attempting WAW-IAD-WAW due to Star Alliance connections, but they already seem to be doing sufficiently at EWR and JFK.


Other South American carriers could take the gamble, most notably TAM or LAN.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-03-18 13:29:56 and read 11085 times.

On the international side, I think the growth will be mostly sustained. DC is a big market with a diverse population that continues to grow. One or two routes might fail (not sure about Porter's success), but IAD can sustain the international traffic growth. The number of new routes may slow some as it will take a little time for the market to digest, but long-term IAD will do well internationally.

However, IAD's overall traffic numbers are stagnant as domestic traffic is declining and will likely continue to do so for some time. LCC's continue to shrink and UA isn't doing much domestically either.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: IADLHR
Posted 2012-03-18 13:49:28 and read 11013 times.

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 1):
One could speculate LOT Polish attempting WAW-IAD-WAW due to Star Alliance connections, but they already seem to be doing sufficiently at EWR and JFK.

I am surprised it hasnt happened. About 5-6 years ago, I was on a LH flight MUC-IAD. I wasx exiting the customs area behind a small group of people. Right outside the customs door, the group was met by large group of people, from management, at IAD and WMATA. The group that I left the customs area with was upper management from LOT.

I heard everyone introduce themselves to one another as I was waiting for a friend to exit customs. Ever since, I have thought that, at some time, LOT would start IAD-WAW.

On a different note, I wonder if LIS-IAD is a possibility at some point in time.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: crazyguineapig
Posted 2012-03-18 16:00:51 and read 10778 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 2):
On the international side, I think the growth will be mostly sustained. DC is a big market with a diverse population that continues to grow. One or two routes might fail (not sure about Porter's success), but IAD can sustain the international traffic growth. The number of new routes may slow some as it will take a little time for the market to digest, but long-term IAD will do well internationally.

Alright, time for my first post ever! I've been reading these forums for years and enjoying all you people talking about the industry and actually knowing so much! Hi!

Okay, here's my first input: I agree, DC's got "capital advantages" if you know what I mean. LOT flying to IAD seems plausible only after they get their 788s, but it makes sense to expand beyond JFK, EWR, YYZ because they're getting 6 of them to replace only 5 (4 flying at the moment) 763s, which means they have a surplus of 1 a/c to fly to a place they don't already go to.

Didn't Royal Air Maroc claim they're going to fly to IAD kind of recently? They're a lot of Moroccans and lots of North Africans around where I live so the diaspora is there. I wonder if IAD-CAI could work. As for incoming airlines, I would guess a Chinese airline if it wasn't for UA already taking up some capacity on IAD-PEK. Maybe LAN from South America? I think, however, that UA might expand faster out of the country than foreign airlines will expand to IAD. I like the thread though!

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: alphaomega
Posted 2012-03-18 16:08:00 and read 10754 times.

In the past few years, there was talk of LAN planning service to IAD, Royal Air Maroc was also planning on starting up but nothing came of it. There has long been talk of Swiss and LOT, but again lots of talk. Ironically, there hardly any talk of ET and EK eventually starting (granted after QR's success, everyone knew it) and here they are - maybe others such as LX will show up in the same manner...?

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-18 16:28:54 and read 10679 times.

Quoting virginvsbritish (Thread starter):
Do you think this is a trend that will bring even more growth to IAD or just a fad that will lead to early closure of these routes?

I think the routes that have been announced recently will last (though maybe not Porter).

Quoting virginvsbritish (Thread starter):
Also, what do you bet to be the next new airline to IAD  

I can't think of many new "flagship" airlines that might come to IAD in the coming years. It's really remarkable how much growth there has been in the last decade, but most of it has been from United. Maybe some more South American airlines, but with Emirates/Qatar/Etihad here/about to be here, there isn't that much left.

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 1):
I can imagine it being started back up again with better success.

It's hard to tell with Star Alliance carriers and revenue sharing. Since United operates IAD-ZRH, it's presumably less important for Swiss to do so...but who knows.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 2):
However, IAD's overall traffic numbers are stagnant as domestic traffic is declining and will likely continue to do so for some time. LCC's continue to shrink and UA isn't doing much domestically either.

Very good points. I think that Dulles will continue to grow internationally, disproportionately from United. I think that IAD-EZE will return eventually, and that IAD-TLV is inevitable. Clearly the new United management (former CO folks) are impressed with Dulles, hence the new routes (Honolulu, Dublin, Manchester, same-plane service to Doha, etc) and rumors about a new aircraft hangar. I think more will come in the next 2 years.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2012-03-18 16:51:03 and read 10626 times.

I think within the next five to ten years IAD could see:
LAN from Lima
TAM from GRU or BSB
Asiana from ICN
Air India from DEL
Caribbean to MBJ and POS
Egyptair to CAI
El Al to TLV
Royal Air Maroc to CMN
Cathay Pacific to HKG
Aerolineas Argentinas to EZE (I admit this is a longshot)

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-03-18 16:53:33 and read 10625 times.

While there has been international growth at IAD, keep in mind domestic services has been trimmed.

JetBlue is gutting much of the flying now that they received DCA slots, Southwest has shrunk a bit, while Delta for example only last week published dropping its SLC-IAD run.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2012-03-18 17:02:08 and read 10594 times.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 7):
I think within the next five to ten years IAD could see:
LAN from Lima
TAM from GRU or BSB

LATAM will make sure to set foot at IAD sooner rather than later.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: crazyguineapig
Posted 2012-03-18 17:53:09 and read 10482 times.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 7):
LAN from Lima
TAM from GRU or BSB
Asiana from ICN
Air India from DEL
Caribbean to MBJ and POS
Egyptair to CAI
El Al to TLV
Royal Air Maroc to CMN
Cathay Pacific to HKG

Sounds right. El Al is a longshot only because they've terminated US destinations before but IAD-TLV is a route that might work out given the military/logistics industry around DC and the diplomatic travel. Would UA every try TLV from IAD? And why did they pull out of EZE?

Air Berlin or Norwegian Air Shuttle maybe? Or is that too farfetched

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: L101fan
Posted 2012-03-18 18:34:40 and read 10329 times.

I would think Porter's chance of survival in the DC market would have been much greater with a run to KDCA. Of course getting a slot would have taken a minor miracle.

[Edited 2012-03-18 18:35:44]

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2012-03-18 18:35:22 and read 10328 times.

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 1):
Other South American carriers could take the gamble, most notably TAM or LA

That's a good bet. There has been a huge amount of growth toward latin america. Most people have to fly to Miami and then connect right now.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 6):
Very good points. I think that Dulles will continue to grow internationally, disproportionately from United. I think that IAD-EZE will return eventually, and that IAD-TLV is inevitable. Clearly the new United management (former CO folks) are impressed with Dulles, hence the new routes (Honolulu, Dublin, Manchester, same-plane service to Doha, etc) and rumors about a new aircraft hangar. I think more will come in the next 2 years.

Agreed. I think the 787 will visit IAD frequently because it long med routes are well supported at IAD. That will open a lot of interesting routes and IAD-EZE and IAD-TLV are logical.

Quoting crazyguineapig (Reply 10):
Sounds right. El Al is a longshot only because they've terminated US destinations before but IAD-TLV is a route that might work out given the military/logistics industry around DC and the diplomatic travel. Would UA every try TLV from IAD? And why did they pull out of EZE?

I'm kind of shocked IAD-TLV isn't already running. IAD-JED/RUH has been around for years.

IAD is also getting mass transit rail in 2018ish so perhaps some more airlines will move there in advance to ancticipate growth. IAD has also stolen alot of international traffic from BWI which is a big Southwest hub.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-18 18:43:34 and read 10264 times.

Quoting crazyguineapig (Reply 10):
but IAD-TLV is a route that might work out given the military/logistics industry around DC and the diplomatic travel. Would UA every try TLV from IAD?

I don't think you'd see El Al on IAD-TLV, but it is natural for United. Good combination of O&D and it can relieve Newark of some of the connecting traffic. This seems to be the United strategy so far with regards to balancing EWR & IAD, and I think that eventually you'll see most foreign destinations served by multiple hubs.

Quoting crazyguineapig (Reply 10):
And why did they pull out of EZE?

I'd guess because EWR-EZE makes more sense right now with a limited fleet. But in a few years things will be different.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 12):
IAD-JED/RUH has been around for years.

Yeah, but this is a "special" route, similar to Aeroflot's once-weekly IAD-Moscow flight...

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 12):
IAD is also getting mass transit rail in 2018ish so perhaps some more airlines will move there in advance to ancticipate growth.

Yes. I do think Dulles will see a slight bump of domestic traffic as a result of the Metro...

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: YNGguins
Posted 2012-03-18 19:06:53 and read 10095 times.

United/Silver to Dulles as well?

http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/co...would-keep-Dulles-hub.html?nav=742

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: yegbey01
Posted 2012-03-18 19:15:20 and read 10034 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 6):
I think the routes that have been announced recently will last (though maybe not Porter).
Quoting washingtonian (Reply 6):
I think the routes that have been announced recently will last (though maybe not Porter).

Porter has already announced a fourth daily starting May 14 up from 3 dailies which is starting April16.

I think Porter will do very well in IAD. There are many people who fly to BUF from the Washington DC area because Air Canada and United have been charging exorbitant fares.

I see YTZ-IAD eventually going up to 5 dailies each way in a year or so.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: flylku
Posted 2012-03-18 19:15:32 and read 10036 times.

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 1):
Swissair operated it with an MD-11,

I recall seeing a Swissair 747 classic in the 90's. Perhaps it was the exception.

As far as how permanent the new routes will be, I think IAD is like other airports where carriers test the waters and some routes last and others do not. But recent history suggests that many of the new routes will have staying power.

With the addition of the new runway and customs facilities it looks to me like terminal space and gates are now the bottleneck at IAD.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2012-03-18 23:48:54 and read 9138 times.

A while back, I heard that the Washington Metro was being expanded to IAD. Is this still happening, and if so, do you think it could cause more passengers to choose IAD? I think it could, because the Metro would mean that people could easily get to D.C., and the fares could be lower to IAD because it is a bigger airport that, unlike DCA, has no perimeter restrictions.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: Irishpower
Posted 2012-03-19 00:21:23 and read 9088 times.

What about Asian carriers? I'm surprised more Asian carries don't serve IAD. Once the 787 and A350 come on board I'm sure it will pick up but I've wondered why CX, JL, CA, MU, CI or SQ don't or haven't tried to start service.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: Independence76
Posted 2012-03-19 01:36:58 and read 8947 times.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 17):
A while back, I heard that the Washington Metro was being expanded to IAD. Is this still happening, and if so, do you think it could cause more passengers to choose IAD? I think it could, because the Metro would mean that people could easily get to D.C., and the fares could be lower to IAD because it is a bigger airport that, unlike DCA, has no perimeter restrictions.

The Metro "Silver Line" won't open until 2016 (scheduled), and while that might be a possibility, DCA still has some practical on-foot transportation as opposed to IAD. My father flies into DCA about twice a month and he picks DCA over IAD all the time simply due to the fact that while at IAD you must take a 10-min bus ride past the parking lots to get to the rental car center. At DCA, it's directly across from the terminal the moment you walk outside of the doors.

So, while the Metro station might help a little at IAD, it won't be exceptionally competitive.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: speedbird217
Posted 2012-03-19 05:59:35 and read 8323 times.

I'm happy to see that IAD is performing well.

Regarding the impact of the Metro expansion: I think it will make IAD more competitive. It's amazing how quick you can get into DCA from the city on the Metro, and you basically stumble into the Terminal when you step out of the train. Nonetheless many people prefer direct flights from outside the US and therefore choose a flight into Dulles over a flight into National via JFK for example.

What I think is important for WMATA to do with the new Metro expansion into IAD is to offer some sort of express train. Running from Metro Center and maybe stopping in Rosslyn as well, but then going to IAD without stopping in between. Coming from the city centre it can be a pain in the back to get to the end of the lines. In New York for example, they also have express trains skipping stops.
I went to a few Redskins games when I lived in DC and starting in the North West on the Red Line it took me between 1.5 and 2 hours to get to FedEx Field in Maryland at the very end of the Blue Line. The train would stop at every station and was completely packed with people going to the game. In Philly they run these express trains on game days for example. Also after Capitals games they would run the trains every 10-15 minutes. You can imagine how packed the platforms were in this situation.

Anyway, the DC Metro is a great way to move around and I think this will be of huge benefit for IAD. It better be if you look a the billions of Dollars that are spend on the expansion...  

[Edited 2012-03-19 06:00:17]

[Edited 2012-03-19 06:00:50]

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-03-19 08:07:13 and read 7860 times.

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 20):
What I think is important for WMATA to do with the new Metro expansion into IAD is to offer some sort of express train.

It would be nice, but not going to happen. The new line to IAD will stop at all stations. There is no additional rail being added that would even allow an express train to pass a local train.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: OM617
Posted 2012-03-19 09:43:00 and read 7477 times.

Looking at Silver line route, there are a lot of stops before one gets to IAD. I believe some sort of surgically timed express runs are called for. It would be a long ride just from downtown, and some of us would be travelling from the 'burbs (myself included). Then again, I do it for DCA (albeit a shorter ride), and there is also the long tube ride from central London to LHR.

If IAD are expanding, they should also consider updating the airside terminal (drop-off) area and the roads leading up to and away from the terminal.

As far as new airlines, excuse me if this is a stretch since I haven't worked in the industry, but how about Arik Air? There are a lot of Africans in the area, and besides a stopover in DKR on SA (do they still do that?), no airline is serving the whole western section of the continent.
I think carriers like CX, CZ, MU would have a hard time getting into a *Alliance dominated airport, and connections on AA or DL are pretty much nonexistent. Plus, aren't they pretty long routes for the equipment they use?

My first real post; thanks for your time and hope I'm not too ignorant...

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-19 11:56:19 and read 7120 times.

Quoting flylku (Reply 16):
But recent history suggests that many of the new routes will have staying power.

My memory is failing me, but I don't believe there have been too many "new" international airlines at IAD recently (last 2-3 years). Emirates and Etihad are biggies on their way obviously, but most of the international growth has come from United the last few years...

Quoting flylku (Reply 16):
With the addition of the new runway and customs facilities it looks to me like terminal space and gates are now the bottleneck at IAD.

Think so? It seems like Concourse A/B is pretty dead these days...It fills up around 3-5PM for the evening rush, but I don't think terminal space is the contraining factor for growth at IAD.

Also it's worth noting that a lot of the growth will probably be during non-peak hours. For example, look at Emirates's propoesd schedule. At that time of the morning, there will probably be only 2-3 non-United international aircraft at the entire airport...Any future growth from Asian or Latin American airlines will also likely be during non-peak hours when there is plenty of terminal space.

Finally, Dulles can always easily remote park aircraft. That is an advantage that most airports do not have.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 17):
Is this still happening, and if so, do you think it could cause more passengers to choose IAD?


Yes. I absolutely know so. All things being equal, people who take public transportation to the airport generally avoid IAD and choose DCA or BWI instead. When the Silver Line is complete, these people will be more likely to book flights out of IAD. Thus the fare premium that DCA commands will diminish a little bit. It won't make IAD easier than DCA (nothing will), but it will help level the playing field a bit.

Quoting Irishpower (Reply 18):
Once the 787 and A350 come on board I'm sure it will pick up but I've wondered why CX, JL, CA, MU, CI or SQ don't or haven't tried to start service.

I'm sure we'll see some of these in the coming years. I've always been surprised that SQ doesn't start IAD-random European city-SIN. You would think they would serve IAD for prestige reasons alone...

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 19):
So, while the Metro station might help a little at IAD, it won't be exceptionally competitive.

The people who take black town cars will still take black town cars. But it will level the playing field a little bit between IAD and DCA/BWI. I doubt it will make a HUGE difference, but certainly some difference.

Quoting OM617 (Reply 22):
If IAD are expanding, they should also consider updating the airside terminal (drop-off) area and the roads leading up to and away from the terminal.

I don't think this is bad at all really. I'm sure some of it will be re-done with the Metro construction, but it's not really an issue today.

[Edited 2012-03-19 11:58:52]

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-03-19 14:20:46 and read 6995 times.

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 15):
I think Porter will do very well in IAD. There are many people who fly to BUF from the Washington DC area because Air Canada and United have been charging exorbitant fares.

In my experience AC and Porter fares in markets they both serve are rarely much different. Just checked fares (including taxes/fees) for a couple of random dates in mid-April YTZ-EWR and the lowest AC and PD fares are almost identical, in fact AC's cheapest round trip fare was $4 lower. Also checked AC ORD and their lowest fare was within $5 of PD's lowest MDW fare.

Porter isn't an LCC, and it's usually the high Canadian and U.S. government taxes/fees that make transborder fares higher than fares to/from border points like BUF where you avoid all the customs/immigration fees etc.

[Edited 2012-03-19 14:29:34]

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-03-19 14:33:09 and read 7129 times.

Quoting flylku (Reply 16):
Quoting Independence76 (Reply 1):
Swissair operated it with an MD-11,

I recall seeing a Swissair 747 classic in the 90's. Perhaps it was the exception.

Swissair was using the A330-200 to IAD in the last couple of years of their existence. Quite a few SR A332 photos at IAD in the database.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-03-19 14:54:47 and read 7142 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 6):
and rumors about a new aircraft hangar

It's not a rumor, EWR is getting a new (fifth) hangar and IAD is getting it's first (from UA).

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...10/01/OM_10_01_2011_p31-367712.xml

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: capitalflyer
Posted 2012-03-19 19:16:15 and read 7076 times.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 17):
fares could be lower to IAD
Quoting washingtonian (Reply 23):
Thus the fare premium that DCA commands

IAD is actually the third most expensive airport in the nation with an average domestic fare of nearly $475 according to a study by the Bureau of Transportation Statistics of DOT. This is due primarily to UA fortress hub. This likely will just get worse if more folks come to Dulles after Metro arrives driving up demand.

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 20):
express train

None of the Metro system has the capacity to do express trains. You need an extra set of tracks and Metro does not have this.

Quoting OM617 (Reply 22):
roads leading up to and away from the terminal

All these roads were just redesigned and rebuilt in the past couple years.



I am surprised there are no nonstop flights to South Asia yet as there is a huge south asian population around Dulles.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: flylku
Posted 2012-03-19 19:40:44 and read 7017 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 23):
Finally, Dulles can always easily remote park aircraft. That is an advantage that most airports do not have.

That's true. In recent years they poured enough concrete for ramps to put in the fifth runway, and then some.

As for gate capacity I guess I am always thinking of C/D which is hopping from 5am until midnight.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: nycdave
Posted 2012-03-19 20:58:56 and read 6958 times.

Quoting L101fan (Reply 11):

I would think Porter's chance of survival in the DC market would have been much greater with a run to KDCA. Of course getting a slot would have taken a minor miracle.
Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 15):
I think Porter will do very well in IAD. There are many people who fly to BUF from the Washington DC area because Air Canada and United have been charging exorbitant fares.

People were skeptical that it'd work from EWR in the first place, and skeptics said "well, maybe they'd have a shot if they got some LGA slots..." Yet, look how that turned out. YTZ is a HUGE advantage for PD, no matter where you're originating from. Customs, transportation, and getting around YYZ are worth a slight premium for many people, as it can be a big time (and stress) saver at the Toronto end. Doesn't hurt that they have superb service (not that AC is bad in my experience, but PD is still a notch above). I'm sure they'll do fine in DC, regardless of whether they're at IAD or DCA. I'm sure they'd love to get a DCA slot, but it's not like there's any shortage of O&D pax both leisure and business from the suburbs and the Dulles corridor.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 13):
This seems to be the United strategy so far with regards to balancing EWR & IAD, and I think that eventually you'll see most foreign destinations served by multiple hubs.

NYC simply generates so much O&D, and has such limited capacity for expansion in the near future, that UA really has to have an "alternate" hub for TATL connections. IAD is perfect for that. Sizable O&D of its own, with plenty of capacity to load in convenient connection banks and expand service with frequency, rather than just capacity (which is really the only option at EWR now... and will probably have to wait until 787's start coming in so UA can re-distribute more of the WB fleet).

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 20):
What I think is important for WMATA to do with the new Metro expansion into IAD is to offer some sort of express train.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda... but Metro is strictly a two-track operation. Oh, how they laughed at us in NYC, with our huge 3- and 4-track lines, with all the added maintanance and complexity it adds... but who's laughing now! Yeah, no, they might be able to run an express at select times during the day (there are some passing sidings that can be used), but during rush hours, the Orange Line is just too crowded, and any "express" would wind up getting stuck behind the locals, almost no matter how you'd try to schedule it.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2012-03-19 21:14:25 and read 6933 times.

Quoting nycdave (Reply 29):
I'm sure they'd love to get a DCA slot, but it's not like there's any shortage of O&D pax both leisure and business from the suburbs and the Dulles corridor.

YTZ does not have pre-clearance so PD cannot fly to DCA, even if they got slots somehow.

Quoting nycdave (Reply 29):
Customs, transportation, and getting around YYZ are worth a slight premium for many people, as it can be a big time (and stress) saver at the Toronto end.

YTZ is only easier if you are headed to downtown Toronto, which most Washington-area pax are not.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: izbtmnhd
Posted 2012-03-20 04:59:53 and read 6797 times.

Don't you need more pax before planning for all this "growth"?

As of 2011, Dulles had about the same amount of pax as in 2004 and hasn't come remotely close to the 2005 peak when Indy Air was around.

All international gains have been offset by domestic losses.

Let's not go overboard.

http://www.mwaa.com/dulles/653.htm

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: LOWS
Posted 2012-03-20 05:50:13 and read 6748 times.

Are there any plans to renovate the main terminal building? It all looks a bit 1970s to my eyes.

At least change the font they use for the airline names.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-03-20 06:19:39 and read 6750 times.

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 20):
What I think is important for WMATA to do with the new Metro expansion into IAD is to offer some sort of express train. Running from Metro Center and maybe stopping in Rosslyn as well, but then going to IAD without stopping in between. Coming from the city centre it can be a pain in the back to get to the end of the lines. In New York for example, they also have express trains skipping stops.

Three things:

(1) - Metro is city-planned after the London Underground system with two-track tunnels; with all lines running through the middle of town, and with all lines crossing all other lines making interchange possible from/to all lines.

(2) - Like the BART system, it runs through many supporting local jurisdictions which would all have to support the track and tunnel re-working necessary to run express trains..

(3) - Systems like NY and PHL which do run express trains (1) are all within one governing jurisdiction and (2) were originally designed and built with wider 4-track tunnels and have nothing to retrofit.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-03-20 06:27:46 and read 6713 times.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 32):
Are there any plans to renovate the main terminal building? It all looks a bit 1970s to my eyes.

At least change the font they use for the airline names.

And a great deal of money is spent yearly keeping it looking that way.

The Main Terminal has become its own advertising logo.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-20 06:28:33 and read 6704 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):
It's not a rumor, EWR is getting a new (fifth) hangar and IAD is getting it's first (from UA).

True. This is really great news though. I think many of us were uncertain about the role of Dulles when the merger was announced, and, frankly, United management (former Continental folks) must be super impressed with the performance of Dulles. How else do you explain three major new routes in less than a year, and a committment to build their first hangar at Dulles?

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 27):
IAD is actually the third most expensive airport in the nation with an average domestic fare of nearly $475 according to a study by the Bureau of Transportation Statistics of DOT. This is due primarily to UA fortress hub.

I don't know how this is measured, but for what it's worth as somebody who lives here, if you are searching for flights to any city on the Eastern seaboard, flights from Dulles are almost always cheaper than National...West Coast flights are a different story.

Quoting flylku (Reply 28):
As for gate capacity I guess I am always thinking of C/D which is hopping from 5am until midnight.

True. But this is United's issue, and United will deal with it sooner rather than later. The rest of the airport is fine capacity wise.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 31):
As of 2011, Dulles had about the same amount of pax as in 2004 and hasn't come remotely close to the 2005 peak when Indy Air was around.

All international gains have been offset by domestic losses.

Fair point. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing though. Most of the majors have scaled back their domestic flying; it was inevitable that airports like Dulles would feel the pinch. But I'd frankly rather see Dulles with international flights to key global destinations than with RJs to small cities in the Midwest...

Quoting LOWS (Reply 32):
Are there any plans to renovate the main terminal building? It all looks a bit 1970s to my eyes.

At least change the font they use for the airline names.

The terminal along with the font is intentionally kept in the 1970s-style. Even new signs such as the signs for the aeroTrain are printed in that font...When I moved to DC I didn't really like that, but it has grown on me. Not many airports intentionally aim for a retro theme...

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: nycdave
Posted 2012-03-20 09:39:12 and read 6589 times.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 32):
Are there any plans to renovate the main terminal building? It all looks a bit 1970s to my eyes.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... That main terminal building is a masterpiece by Eero Saarinen (and dates to the early 60's). Sure, it's not PEK, but it's a stunning monument to the style of the time and the artistry of Saarinen. As long as the interior is kept refreshed and functional, there's no reason to dispose of it.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 30):
YTZ is only easier if you are headed to downtown Toronto, which most Washington-area pax are not.

Where ARE DC-area pax headed in the Toronto area, then? I mean, I know Mississauga is a boom town kinda, but it still is far behind Toronto proper in terms of IT firms, telecom, and banking.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: VC10DC10
Posted 2012-03-20 10:03:08 and read 6571 times.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 32):
Are there any plans to renovate the main terminal building? It all looks a bit 1970s to my eyes.

At least change the font they use for the airline names.

Nooooooooooo... please no! IAD is hell of inconvenient for me, but I love flying out of it whenever possible mostly because of that building. And I love that font  

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: OM617
Posted 2012-03-20 10:03:30 and read 6543 times.

Quoting flylku (Reply 28):
All these roads were just redesigned and rebuilt in the past couple years

Thanks, I was not aware. Haven't driven there myself for some years. Also now I think of it, the dropoff area expanded with the main terminal expansion.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 33):
Are there any plans to renovate the main terminal building? It all looks a bit 1970s to my eyes.

Actually late 50's - early 60's. The building is iconic, been in several films, not going anywhere anytime soon. Those mobile lounges, however...

DED

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-20 10:23:00 and read 6529 times.

Quoting OM617 (Reply 38):
Those mobile lounges, however...

The mobile lounges are only used these days for passengers using the D concourse or arriving on international flights...

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-03-20 14:05:20 and read 6424 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 35):

True. This is really great news though. I think many of us were uncertain about the role of Dulles when the merger was announced, and, frankly, United management (former Continental folks) must be super impressed with the performance of Dulles. How else do you explain three major new routes in less than a year, and a committment to build their first hangar at Dulles?

I think of it more as a correction of UA's previous neglect than anything else, bringing the operation up to a state of good repair.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: capitalflyer
Posted 2012-03-20 16:04:32 and read 6387 times.

Quoting flylku (Reply 28):
C/D which is hopping from 5am until midnight

I have been in C/D at times in the afternoon that the west end of D is a virtual ghost town.

What they need is to expand and better integrate Express ops that are currently in concourse A and are a long walk and train ride away. Express gates need to be on the same tier as mainline ops to make connections easier. But all this requires a new concourse, which has been discussed to death and no one thinks will happen anytime soon.

A is not quite Cincinnati in terms of the "cow herding" feel, but it is close, and at least a zoo.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: LOWS
Posted 2012-03-20 16:49:31 and read 6388 times.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 41):

I have been in C/D at times in the afternoon that the west end of D is a virtual ghost town.

What they need is to expand and better integrate Express ops that are currently in concourse A and are a long walk and train ride away. Express gates need to be on the same tier as mainline ops to make connections easier. But all this requires a new concourse, which has been discussed to death and no one thinks will happen anytime soon.

A is not quite Cincinnati in terms of the "cow herding" feel, but it is close, and at least a zoo.

If UA wants to make IAD a great connecting alternative to EWR, they need a better terminal with a quality connecting experience, especially for customs/security from international flights.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-20 17:38:52 and read 6346 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 40):
I think of it more as a correction of UA's previous neglect than anything else, bringing the operation up to a state of good repair.

Fair enough, but any way you cut it, it's a decision by the new United management to invest in Dulles. There is simply no way that this would have happend so rapidly if the new United management were not impressed by Dulles's financial performance.

The amazing thing about all this stuff on A.net is that none of us know any inside information. Imagine running Continental for years, and then getting access to all of United's internal financial performance information....I'd wager that the former Continental folks now running United were impressed by the overall performance of the Dulles operation, hence the decision to "bring the operation up to a state of good repair" as you phrased it.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 41):
I have been in C/D at times in the afternoon that the west end of D is a virtual ghost town.

That is my impression. My last departure from the far end of D was August 2009 in the morning and it was EMPTY.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 41):
What they need is to expand and better integrate Express ops that are currently in concourse A and are a long walk and train ride away

I'm guessing that United is reluctant to consolidate in D because they would be leaving all of A to a competitor (the Indy Air fiasco wasn't that long ago...). Consolidating in D should be physically possible though.

Hopefully in the near future when United does decide to invest in a new concourse they will not be short-sighted and will make the decision to build permanent accommodations for the entire Express operation in the new permanent concourse.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 42):
If UA wants to make IAD a great connecting alternative to EWR, they need a better terminal with a quality connecting experience, especially for customs/security from international flights.

On the whole, it is fairly easy now. Certainly easier than Newark at times depending on where your flight is. But I agree that ultimately they should aim to make it like the Delta (former Northwest) terminal at DTW. That should be the model for large hub operation concourses in the US...

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-03-21 05:12:44 and read 6209 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 43):
I'm guessing that United is reluctant to consolidate in D because they would be leaving all of A to a competitor (the Indy Air fiasco wasn't that long ago...).

Who would want the A gates? No one is going to start an LCC with RJ's again...especially with oil prices where they are now. As is, there are plenty of gates on B should a new carrier want to launch at IAD, but right now all the LCC's are retreating from IAD.

The real reason UA won't consolidate is that during the peak pushes, there aren't enough gates. Go to IAD around 5pm and C/D is close to full....no room to park 30+ RJ's.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: alphaomega
Posted 2012-03-21 06:32:57 and read 6162 times.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 34):
Quoting LOWS (Reply 32):
Are there any plans to renovate the main terminal building? It all looks a bit 1970s to my eyes.

At least change the font they use for the airline names.

And a great deal of money is spent yearly keeping it looking that way.

The Main Terminal has become its own advertising logo.

Part of the issue with this (and also relates to limiting expansion to the current ticket counters being utilized) is the main terminal building is actually registered as a national historical landmark, and can no longer be altered. I think they have plenty of space if the counters on the back side a used now that the security checkpoints are down below, but it seems nobody wants to go there.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: msp747
Posted 2012-03-21 07:24:36 and read 6120 times.

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 45):
Part of the issue with this (and also relates to limiting expansion to the current ticket counters being utilized) is the main terminal building is actually registered as a national historical landmark, and can no longer be altered.

Why would you want to?!! I think the terminal is stunning, especially if you drive in at night and it is glowing. And the new aero train system is great. You never have to wait more than 2 minutes for one of the trains to pick you up, and the new security area and train boarding area is very efficient.

I am surprised some carriers have been pulling back there, like WN. I understand the draw of DCA if you are downtown, but there are so many people living around IAD and that's where a majority of the people moving to the DC area are going. There is also a huge business community in the Dulles corridor. I was hoping WN would have kept the AirTran flights, but they plan to cut them. I understand they are planning an operation out of DCA, but that will have limits. And people in Northern Virginia are not going to drive more than an hour to Baltimore. I did it once, never again.

As for all the talk about Metro and a lack of an express train, I don't think NYC is the right kind of city to compare Metro to. Metro covers so much ground with its lines, and the stations are generally much further apart than the ones in NYC and Philly. My station is the very last one on the Orange line, and during the week, I can get to Metro Center in about 30 minutes. Obviously, weekends can be a whole other story with all the repairs and construction. My guess is the new silver line would take 45 minutes from Metro Center to Dulles during the week.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-21 07:25:31 and read 6134 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 44):
Who would want the A gates? No one is going to start an LCC with RJ's again...especially with oil prices where they are now.

I agree with you that I can't think of anybody who would swoop in for the A gates right now...That being said, I'm generally weary of airlines giving up strategic assets at key airports that might fall into the hands of competitors.

Frankly long-term, once the new C/D is complete and United is out of A and growth dictates it, the natural thing to do will be to extend the pernanent A/B concourse to where the low-A gates are now. But this will be at least a decade away.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 44):
As is, there are plenty of gates on B should a new carrier want to launch at IAD, but right now all the LCC's are retreating from IAD.

Presumably the cost of using B is greater than A.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 44):
The real reason UA won't consolidate is that during the peak pushes, there aren't enough gates. Go to IAD around 5pm and C/D is close to full....

Yup. Like I said before, hopefully the new permanent midfield concourse (whenever it is built) will have built-in RJ facilities so that United can easily consolidate there. I'm sure United planners will have a pretty good idea of what the mix of mainline to RJs will be in the coming years and can design the terminal accordingly.

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 45):
I think they have plenty of space if the counters on the back side a used now that the security checkpoints are down below, but it seems nobody wants to go there.

I don't think ticket counter space is an issue, especially since the new security checkpoint opened in 2009. A lot of the back counters are now in fact used.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: crazyguineapig
Posted 2012-03-21 07:34:02 and read 6133 times.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 46):
Why would you want to?!! I think the terminal is stunning, especially if you drive in at night and it is glowing.

It's my favorite terminal too!

Quoting msp747 (Reply 46):
but there are so many people living around IAD


Isn't Dulles area is inhabited by a ridiculously sparsely-distributed population? Sometimes landing their or taking off I tell myself I wouldn't be surprised to see some roaming cow or lonely animal in the fields surrounding the airport, but there's not even any farmers around let alone frequent-flying inhabitants!

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: msp747
Posted 2012-03-21 07:45:08 and read 6118 times.

Quoting crazyguineapig (Reply 48):
Isn't Dulles area is inhabited by a ridiculously sparsely-distributed population? Sometimes landing their or taking off I tell myself I wouldn't be surprised to see some roaming cow or lonely animal in the fields surrounding the airport, but there's not even any farmers around let alone frequent-flying inhabitants!

Yes, it does get rural real quick. My point is that almost all of the growth in the DC area right now is in Northern Virginia, and more specifically in Fairfax and Loudoun Counties. What is a farm field today will likely be houses or businesses tomorrow. Reston is booming. I swear the town center adds a new building every month, and the "tech corridor" is also quite popular. Want more proof, just look at home prices. It's one of the few markets in this country where prices have actually gone up over the last few years.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: msp747
Posted 2012-03-21 08:51:11 and read 6062 times.

As for Porter Airlines, I have a good feeling about their chances for success. Flying the Q400's must help them them save a lot of money over the CRJ's and ERJ's that Air Canada flies from DC to Toronto, plus they do have the advantage of flying directly into downtown, which would seem to be the destination of most people who were flying this route. I guess I could see Porter cutting back on the number of daily flights they offer, but I have a hard time believing they won't make this route work, especially since they've made pretty much all of their routes work so far.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-23 08:26:19 and read 5800 times.

I do think we will see more Asian airlines in the next decade. It is inevitable with the 787 and A-350 arriving...

Quoting crazyguineapig (Reply 48):

It's my favorite terminal too!

It's pretty unique and amazing. I love driving to Dulles and approaching the terminal. There are very few, if any, terminals like that in the US....

Quoting crazyguineapig (Reply 48):


Isn't Dulles area is inhabited by a ridiculously sparsely-distributed population? Sometimes landing their or taking off I tell myself I wouldn't be surprised to see some roaming cow or lonely animal in the fields surrounding the airport, but there's not even any farmers around let alone frequent-flying inhabitants!

Yup, but it's fast-growing and very wealthy.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: yegbey01
Posted 2012-03-24 10:11:32 and read 5538 times.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 50):
As for Porter Airlines, I have a good feeling about their chances for success. Flying the Q400's must help them them save a lot of money over the CRJ's and ERJ's that Air Canada flies from DC to Toronto, plus they do have the advantage of flying directly into downtown, which would seem to be the destination of most people who were flying this route. I guess I could see Porter cutting back on the number of daily flights they offer, but I have a hard time believing they won't make this route work, especially since they've made pretty much all of their routes work so far.

I think AC caters to not only those flying to Toronto but those who connect beyond. We regularly fly AC to connect overseas via YUL and YYZ and when flying to other Canadian cities.

Porter will pick up a lot of passengers who have to conduct business downtown. My only question is - downtown Toronto is not where the IT companies are based - it's rather in the suburbs (Mississauga, Brampton, North York, Markham) and I think it would be very inconvenient for anyone flying into YTZ.

I am a regular on the DCA-YYZ route (almost twice a month) and most of my business tends to be downtown Toronto, so what I gain by flying Porter is convenience when arriving in TO, but I lose out on the long drive to IAD.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: lhrnue
Posted 2012-03-24 10:40:53 and read 5495 times.

Please no additional international flights/airlines toIAD. The queues at immigration are already redicilous long.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-24 14:20:38 and read 5412 times.

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 53):
Please no additional international flights/airlines toIAD. The queues at immigration are already redicilous long.

As I pointed out above, most of the international growth at IAD (Middle Eastern airlines, flights to Asia, Latin American airlines) has come at non-peak hours.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: iadbudd
Posted 2012-03-24 16:58:56 and read 5302 times.

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 53):

The reason why the immigration lines are so long is that IAD has always been very popular with European flights.
Everyone from Europe wants to get to IAD at 3 in the afternoon. Even with the second bank of flights later in the evening it is still overcrowded in the queues.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: iaddca
Posted 2012-03-24 17:19:14 and read 5273 times.

IAD is seeing more RJs and more int'l widebodies, but fewer mainline narrowbodies, and that challenge is about to grow slightly with the 8 new DCA beyond perimeter slots

when I fly DL, almost always fly out of DCA to get a mainline jet to DTW or MSP, which you can't get from IAD, if AA cuts frequencies to DFW or LAX from IAD, could get close to being a full-time DCA flyer, even though I'm closer to IAD

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: gigneil
Posted 2012-03-24 22:15:04 and read 5144 times.

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 20):
What I think is important for WMATA to do with the new Metro expansion into IAD is to offer some sort of express train. R
Quoting OM617 (Reply 22):

Looking at Silver line route, there are a lot of stops before one gets to IAD. I believe some sort of surgically timed express runs are called for.

WMATA has already dismissed it as impossible, sadly.

Quoting speedbird217 (Reply 20):
Anyway, the DC Metro is a great way to move around and I think this will be of huge benefit for IAD. It better be if you look a the billions of Dollars that are spend on the expansion...  

I think the expansion is primarily for the benefit of Northern Virginia. Its going to take over an hour to ride from DC to Dulles.

NS

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: jfidler
Posted 2012-03-24 23:08:18 and read 5122 times.

With the announcement of EK flights from IAD, I priced out a few flights in September/October on EK's site via DXB to Asia. I picked a few dates, and for all the dates I picked, only economy class was available on the EK231/232 (IAD-DXB) leg of the routing, while business class was listed as sold out.

So the only option to fly in C would be via EK's JFK flight. Is this just an error in their system or is this flight so popular that they're consistently selling out C already? I tried a few different dates and the flight was consistently sold out in C.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: lhrnue
Posted 2012-03-25 05:00:33 and read 5013 times.

Washingtonian / Iadbudd,

I undersrand your points. Still I think the addtional flights will have an impact on the peak times, assuming that the immigration officer have their breaks during the off-beak times today. Maybe I am wrong.
Indeed I am coming normally with the afternoon flight from Europe to IAD. The longest I queued I've been in was around 3 hours and the non-citizen queue started right a the end of the new escalators. I saw people collapsing and getting sick. I personal don't have problem with the queueing, I am 37 ... but there is no recoginition of elderly people (other than turning up in a wheelchair) and families. I think the situation just don't live up to the expectation people have coming the gateway to the captial of the USA. Instad of using the 'entrance fee' for advertising to get more visitors to the US it should be used to give the people, which already come, a better first impresion.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-25 09:38:59 and read 4923 times.

Quoting iaddca (Reply 56):
AD is seeing more RJs and more int'l widebodies, but fewer mainline narrowbodies, and that

Not necessarily a bad thing though, since the pullback of domestic mainline flights is happening everywhere across the country, and Dulles is making up for it with rapid international expansion that would make most other airports jealous.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 57):
I think the expansion is primarily for the benefit of Northern Virginia. Its going to take over an hour to ride from DC to Dulles.

Everyone knows that the rail line was NOT built for Dulles, or for travelers. It was built for Northern Virginia. That being said, many people in DC will take the train to Dulles, despite the long travel time.

Quoting jfidler (Reply 58):
So the only option to fly in C would be via EK's JFK flight. Is this just an error in their system or is this flight so popular that they're consistently selling out C already? I tried a few different dates and the flight was consistently sold out in C.

Not sure, but I can't imagine it is all booked already. More likely EK is holding them back for some reason...

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 59):
Still I think the addtional flights will have an impact on the peak times, assuming that the immigration officer have their breaks during the off-beak times today. Maybe I am wrong.

I'm honestly not sure. I've always wondered why TSA (and by extension, immigration officers) staffing levels are so weird at times. I'd expect a full roster of agents to be working during peak hours; alas the powers that be seem to dictate otherwise.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: msp747
Posted 2012-03-26 11:13:10 and read 4717 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 60):
Everyone knows that the rail line was NOT built for Dulles, or for travelers. It was built for Northern Virginia. That being said, many people in DC will take the train to Dulles, despite the long travel time

I think this is getting blown out of proportion by people who don't normally travel to Northern Virginia. Will it take longer to get to Dulles? Yes. But will it take THAT much longer? I'm going to say no. People who live in the District and Maryland like to act like Virginia is on the moon. But mind you, most of them rarely travel into Virginia. They avoid it like they will come down with some sort of disease. Honestly, if you look at the number of stops a silver line train will make from Metro Center versus what a blue line train will make from the same station or what a yellow line train will make from China Town, you'll see that it is less than double. And silver line stops will be further apart, so the trains will move at much faster speeds. How often do blue or yellow line trains operate at 65 miles an hour between downtown and DCA? I'm going to guess never. If you have ever ridden an orange line train past Ballston, you will see that they move a lot faster. Yesterday, I rode from Vienna to Chinatown for a Caps game in less than 30 minutes - with a transfer! I'm willing to bet the silver line will move a lot faster than people think, making Dulles easier to get to than they think. Then again, I'm not sure it will change opinions of people who live in DC or Maryland. They think they know everything already

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-26 11:18:18 and read 4707 times.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 61):
I'm willing to bet the silver line will move a lot faster than people think, making Dulles easier to get to than they think.

I have to disagree. There is simply no way you can compare the ease of getting from anywhere in downtown DC to DCA to what will be by any objective definition a schlep out to Dulles. From pretty much anywhere in downtown DC, DCA is 15-20 minutes or less.

Silver Line to Dulles will be minimum 35-45, more when you factor in the distance of the station from the terminal, etc.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 61):
Then again, I'm not sure it will change opinions of people who live in DC or Maryland

I've always said that the Silver Line will change the equation. More people will fly from Dulles, that is all but guaranteed. We'll see if it has an effect on yields though--I doubt it will have much of one.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-03-26 11:26:03 and read 4709 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 60):
Everyone knows that the rail line was NOT built for Dulles, or for travelers. It was built for Northern Virginia. That being said, many people in DC will take the train to Dulles, despite the long travel time.

The best example I can think of is at London-Heathrow. The Piccadilly Line which serves Heathrow is (also) a two-track line with an impossibly long travel time, end to end -- and has no express service.

But has anyone been on a train there -- ever -- where there were no rollerbags?

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: msp747
Posted 2012-03-26 11:52:26 and read 4668 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 62):
I have to disagree. There is simply no way you can compare the ease of getting from anywhere in downtown DC to DCA to what will be by any objective definition a schlep out to Dulles. From pretty much anywhere in downtown DC, DCA is 15-20 minutes or less.

I think you missed my point. I didn't say it would take the same time. I was saying that people were making it sound like IAD was further away than say BWI. All I was saying is the trip to IAD vs. DCA would be about 20 minutes more on Metro, which for the right fare, is nothing. But people in Maryland and DC might not realize that because they think Virginia is too far away

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: LOWS
Posted 2012-03-26 13:22:55 and read 4629 times.

With the rail to IAD problem, why did they not just extend the Virginia Commuter Rail system? E.g., like Heathrow Express, dedicated trains on shared tracks direct from DC's elegant Union Station.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-03-26 13:44:11 and read 4599 times.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 65):
With the rail to IAD problem, why did they not just extend the Virginia Commuter Rail system? E.g., like Heathrow Express, dedicated trains on shared tracks direct from DC's elegant Union Station.

Because the "greens" had already convinced local governments to purchase the available rail beds and rights-of-way and convert them to tree-breaks; parkland, conservation trails.

There aren't any more standard-gauge rail beds leading to Dulles

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-26 13:51:49 and read 4588 times.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 65):
With the rail to IAD problem, why did they not just extend the Virginia Commuter Rail system? E.g., like Heathrow Express, dedicated trains on shared tracks direct from DC's elegant Union Station.

The Virginia Commuter Rail doesn't go into Union Station.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-03-26 14:05:32 and read 4573 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 67):

The Virginia Commuter Rail doesn't go into Union Station.

It most certainly does.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 66):
Because the "greens" had already convinced local governments to purchase the available rail beds and rights-of-way and convert them to tree-breaks; parkland, conservation trails.

The "greens" don't have much to do with it. The former W&OD rail line property was bought as right of way by Virginia Dominion Power so that they could run high voltage lines. They then allowed the Parks authority to convert it to trails. However, given the power line infrastructure in place, you'd have a hard time putting in track...especially once you get close to the beltway.

Not to mention that another VRE line would still have to merge onto the same track used by the other VRE lines, AMTRAK and freight lines. As is now, delays for VRE are commonplace because the line is overloaded.

Even worse, the VRE line would fail to serve Tyson's Corner if it followed the old W&OD line.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-03-26 14:06:54 and read 4581 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 67):
The Virginia Commuter Rail doesn't go into Union Station.

Actually VRE stops at *both* L'Enfant Plaza *and* Union Station -- but that's not the problem.

The "Old Dominion" line rail bed between Rte 7 and Rte 66 was torn up years ago. And as I understand it, at least part of the Dulles Airport Access Road is built on the right of way.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: LOWS
Posted 2012-03-26 14:11:49 and read 4551 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 67):
The Virginia Commuter Rail doesn't go into Union Station.

I was going on the map here:

http://www.vre.org/service/systmmp.htm

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-26 14:24:09 and read 4536 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 68):
It most certainly does.

I stand corrected!

Quoting msp747 (Reply 64):
But people in Maryland and DC might not realize that because they think Virginia is too far away
Quoting msp747 (Reply 61):
Then again, I'm not sure it will change opinions of people who live in DC or Maryland. They think they know everything already
Quoting msp747 (Reply 61):
People who live in the District and Maryland like to act like Virginia is on the moon. But mind you, most of them rarely travel into Virginia.

I guess I am one of these people!   I never noticed VRE at Union Station...

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-03-26 14:26:40 and read 4539 times.

Isn't VRE only peak hour operation, no weekends, nights, holidays etc.. It's not like NJ Transit, SEPTA, LIRR, Metro North.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-03-26 14:31:56 and read 4541 times.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 70):
I was going on the map here:

http://www.vre.org/service/systmmp.htm

To get to Dulles, you'd have to branch off at Backlick Road (blue line) and head NNW.

I bought my new car at Sterling Ford on Harry Byrd Highway. When I left the dealership at 8pm, there was wall-to-wall traffic clear to the Beltway. So if there was a VRE line built out that way, it would break even in a year.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-03-26 14:34:24 and read 4526 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 72):
Isn't VRE only peak hour operation, no weekends, nights, holidays etc.. It's not like NJ Transit, SEPTA, LIRR, Metro North.

Correct. Though presumably if the demand on a hypothetical Dulles Line was strong enough, you could run the trains more often.

I've said this before on other posts, but I think it bears repeating. The primary purpose of the rail line to IAD is NOT to serve IAD. The primary purpose of this line is to move people from the suburbs of Loudoun and Fairfax into the major work centers at Tyson's Corner, Arlington and DC. Taking people to/from IAD is a secondary gain.

As for people using the train, I'm sure you'll find plenty of leisure travelers willing to take the long train ride (to save money). Train fare to IAD will still be much cheaper than a cab or driving and parking coming from DC. Last year, I rode the Piccadilly Line to LHR and the train had tons of people going to LHR with many coming from all over London and enduring significantly long tube rides.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-03-26 14:39:37 and read 4516 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 74):
I've said this before on other posts, but I think it bears repeating. The primary purpose of the rail line to IAD is NOT to serve IAD. The primary purpose of this line is to move people from the suburbs of Loudoun and Fairfax into the major work centers at Tyson's Corner, Arlington and DC. Taking people to/from IAD is a secondary gain.

100% right. Though it's funny how it's become primarily known as the "train to Dulles" in popular imagination. Something psychological I guess that makes us associate rail lines with other modes of transport?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 74):
As for people using the train, I'm sure you'll find plenty of leisure travelers willing to take the long train ride (to save money).

Yup. The price disparity between cabs to Dulles and the Metro are just too great.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 74):
I rode the Piccadilly Line to LHR and the train had tons of people going to LHR with many coming from all over London and enduring significantly long tube rides

Also not that different than people schlepping on the A train to Howard Beach in NYC...

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: LOWS
Posted 2012-03-26 14:49:39 and read 4511 times.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 73):
To get to Dulles, you'd have to branch off at Backlick Road (blue line) and head NNW.

I'm talking about a new branch to Dulles.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 72):
Isn't VRE only peak hour operation, no weekends, nights, holidays etc.. It's not like NJ Transit, SEPTA, LIRR, Metro North.

Not necessary VRE trains, but like at LHR with Heathrow Express. Dedicated trains running on shared tracks.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-03-26 14:52:12 and read 4527 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 75):
Also not that different than people schlepping on the A train to Howard Beach in NYC...

Never tried that. From upper Lexington Avenue, it seems faster to take the E train (mostly express service) to Sutphin Boulevard (the road less traveled -- so to speak   ) which also connects to the Air Train.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-03-26 14:54:19 and read 4524 times.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 76):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 73):
To get to Dulles, you'd have to branch off at Backlick Road (blue line) and head NNW.

I'm talking about a new branch to Dulles.

Since none actually exists presently --pretty obviously so am I.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: virginvsbritish
Posted 2012-04-05 14:11:05 and read 4215 times.

Thanks for all the replies. I can see Asian carriers specifically coming to IAD. Fingers crossed for Thai and Singapore Airlines
 

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: rogercamel
Posted 2012-04-05 21:58:59 and read 4047 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 21):
The new line to IAD will stop at all stations. There is no additional rail being added that would even allow an express train to pass a local train

Well - the express to HKG shares a commuter line for most of its length - but it comes at the expense of frequency on both the commuter and express services. I don't really know the silver line (been quite a while since I was in DC last) but it wouldn't be in keeping with the existing service philosophy, which is mass transit rather than express transit.

Picadilly Line in London takes 45-60 mins to central London and attracts around 15% of trips to and from LHR (possibly not 15% of travellers - it is very popular among workers). The LHR express was around 10% - these figures are a few years outdated but probably reasonable for today.

Having looked at several airport rail lines around the world, they often do not attract that much additional traffic - there is some mode conversion for those who are O&D near one of the stations served by direct trains.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: capitalflyer
Posted 2012-04-06 15:54:03 and read 3847 times.

Judging by the political machinations lately, Metro may never get to IAD. Loudon County may drop their funding and the Commonwealth of Virginia will be voting on a budget that does not include $300 million earmarked for the project.

Time to draw up plans for the express bus from Reston.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: Schweigend
Posted 2012-04-07 23:39:18 and read 3636 times.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 81):
Judging by the political machinations lately, Metro may never get to IAD.

I suspect that UA is pressing hard behind the scenes for a viable rail link to IAD.

They waited a long time for a real rail link from Newark to Manhattan, finally getting it circa 2002, and I believe they have benefited from Penn Station NY being only 15-20 minutes from EWR.

The politics come in when people think that a good rail link from Washington to IAD would siphon traffic from DCA.

DCA should not worry about IAD -- National Airport will always see full flights.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: iaddca
Posted 2012-04-08 07:54:48 and read 3529 times.

Challenge is the union thugs who've taken over MWAA who want either VA taxpayers or toll road drivers to pay inflated union wages on the project. Its no longer about transferring people from DC to Dulles, but transferring cash to union bosses. Best thing to do is stop at Wiehle, and make a short bus trip from there...especially with the real choke point being the 66-beltway-toll road squeeze between Tysons and Arlington.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-04-08 08:01:48 and read 3516 times.

Quoting iaddca (Reply 83):
Challenge is the union thugs who've taken over MWAA who want either VA taxpayers or toll road drivers to pay inflated union wages on the project. Its no longer about transferring people from DC to Dulles, but transferring cash to union bosses. Best thing to do is stop at Wiehle, and make a short bus trip from there...especially with the real choke point being the 66-beltway-toll road squeeze between Tysons and Arlington.

Money changing hands to get something done?

But of course. That's DC politics.   

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: nycdave
Posted 2012-04-08 08:14:17 and read 3528 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 72):
Isn't VRE only peak hour operation, no weekends, nights, holidays etc.. It's not like NJ Transit, SEPTA, LIRR, Metro North.

SHHHHH!!! Don't tell Washingtonians that their tiny "metropolis" isn't at all comparable in size, service, complexity, or cosmopolitan flavor as NYC! They HATE that... after all, they control our lives, working in The Capitol. Right?  
Quoting washingtonian (Reply 75):
Though it's funny how it's become primarily known as the "train to Dulles" in popular imagination.

Well, in all fairness, that IS the end of the (proposed) line. It's pretty standard for any major transit line to be referred to by its termini. The manhattan-bound/uptownA train in NYC is to "207th Street-Inwood", but I doubt many riders are taking it with the aim of going there!

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 77):
Never tried that. From upper Lexington Avenue, it seems faster to take the E train (mostly express service) to Sutphin Boulevard (the road less traveled -- so to speak   ) which also connects to the Air Train.

Indeed, from pretty much anywhere north of Penn station, the E will reliably be the faster route (though, from Penn, the LIRR will be fastest of all). You'd be surprised, however, how many tourists will take the A because it's a) the only subway they've heard of, and b) they are confused by the prospect of going to this place called... Jamaica?

Quoting iaddca (Reply 83):
Its no longer about transferring people from DC to Dulles, but transferring cash to union bosses.

Oh lordy loo. If it wasn't tranferring cash to union bosses, it'd be transferring cash to NON-union contractors and construction company CEOs... and then they'll get blamed for their usual hiring of "illegals", and....

Oh, for crying out loud, can we just admit to the fact that no matter how it's done, building infrastructure COSTS FRIGGIN' MONEY, and since the dawn of the republic, people have been complaining that it costs too much and people they don't like are profiting off of it.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-04-08 08:47:34 and read 3491 times.

Quoting nycdave (Reply 85):
Well, in all fairness, that IS the end of the (proposed) line.

That's not the end of the proposed line. The line is proposed to end in Ashburn, a few miles past IAD. Of course, budget battles may change that.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2012-04-08 09:26:19 and read 3459 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 86):
Quoting nycdave (Reply 85):Well, in all fairness, that IS the end of the (proposed) line.That's not the end of the proposed line. The line is proposed to end in Ashburn, a few miles past IAD. Of course, budget battles may change that.

Indeed we often discuss on here, just like Metro at DCA, that IAD is a key stop on the line, but it is meant to serve commuters to DC as well as airport traffic. That said, there may be an interesting development brewing if the Loudoun County council does in fact nix their portion of Silver Line funding. I haven't read the contingency plans in detail, but if they do that, it's possible Metro could end up terminating at IAD. I will defer to someone who has better info on what happens if/when Loudoun backs out of the Silver Line.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: nycdave
Posted 2012-04-08 09:45:10 and read 3430 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 86):
That's not the end of the proposed line. The line is proposed to end in Ashburn, a few miles past IAD. Of course, budget battles may change that.

Oooh! Did not know about Ashburn -- was that a later addition to the plans?

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-04-08 11:04:58 and read 3383 times.

Quoting nycdave (Reply 88):
Oooh! Did not know about Ashburn -- was that a later addition to the plans?

No, it's been in the plans all along. It had to be in order to get Loudoun County to support. Of course, now if Loudoun backs out then, maybe it might end at IAD.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: msp747
Posted 2012-04-10 07:08:56 and read 3198 times.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 81):
Judging by the political machinations lately, Metro may never get to IAD. Loudon County may drop their funding and the Commonwealth of Virginia will be voting on a budget that does not include $300 million earmarked for the project.

This deal will get done, it will just have to go through the usual backroom politics that make DC famous. The Feds have already stepped in once to save this phase of the project, so there is no way they will let it fail now. My bet is that WMATA will back down from the union requirement, much like they did on the whole underground station at Dulles. Loudoun will get some sort of concession, but will also participate. Fairfax County is reaffirming their part in the project today, so you know they are on board. Nothing comes easy in Washington.

I think that the Silver line will help IAD, but obviously it won't overtake DCA with just this. I don't think there will be much future expansion at DCA because of the facility itself, but it will at least sustain what it has. IAD will grow in the years ahead, as more people move into Northern Virginia. I just hope that the UA hub hasn't pushed out all competition by then.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-04-10 07:46:55 and read 3177 times.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 90):
I just hope that the UA hub hasn't pushed out all competition by then.

If the population grows and Dulles becomes more attractive, the airlines will return. Airlines are natural creatures of the free market. Unlike DCA, IAD has no shortage of gates and runways, etc.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: OURBOEING
Posted 2012-04-10 08:49:19 and read 3131 times.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 7):
Air India from DEL

Well, Air India already tried that last year and stopped. Don't know why.

There is such a large Indian community in the DC area and anyone doing a non-stop to Delhi or Mumbai will do well.

OURBOEING

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: iadbudd
Posted 2012-04-10 11:22:23 and read 3064 times.

Air India did not really give IAD a fair chance. They were using their 777-300 from JFK to drop down to IAD, then returned to JFK before going back to India. QR has really tapped into the large Indian community in D.C. More than half of QR,s daily flight to DOH is connecting onto destinations in India.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-04-11 12:26:41 and read 2873 times.

Quoting rogercamel (Reply 80):
they often do not attract that much additional traffic - there is some mode conversion for those who are O&D near one of the stations served by direct trains

I'm not sure I agree with this. In the case of Washington, you have an artificailly (government) constrained airport, DCA, that is vastly more convenient for most (but certainly not all) travellers. The convenience combined with the limited number of slots, aircraft size, and destinations all distort prices. I think that when the Silver Line is complete there will be more of a balance between the two. It's essentially leveling the playing field. There will still be the normal different modes available to all travellers--businessman will continue to take black towncars regardless of the Metro--but having Metro access at both airports (plus BWI) should even things out a bit.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 81):

Time to draw up plans for the express bus from Reston.

I don't know why people on here constantly get scared of this. From the moment ground was broken in 2009, I knew it would go to Dulles. Even at the height of all the arguments last year. After spending billions on the first phase, the various constituencies were not going to let the second half die. That remains the case.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 82):
and I believe they have benefited from Penn Station NY being only 15-20 minutes from EWR.

Absolutely. It's not a coincidence that Newark's star really started to shine in the mid-2000s when Continental added a tremendous amount of new international destinations.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 82):
The politics come in when people think that a good rail link from Washington to IAD would siphon traffic from DCA.

I don't think anyone thinks this or has said this. DCA will remain an artificially slot-constrained airport, and no airline is going to give up these valuable slots. The Metro might affect pricing and yields though--more people will be willing to fly out of Dulles for a lower fare.

Quoting nycdave (Reply 85):
SHHHHH!!! Don't tell Washingtonians that their tiny "metropolis" isn't at all comparable in size, service, complexity, or cosmopolitan flavor as NYC! They HATE that..

We have been actively building a train to Dulles since 2009. How's that one-seat ride to JFK coming along? Or subway to LGA?

Quoting nycdave (Reply 85):
after all, they control our lives, working in The Capitol. Right?

Who bailed out who in 2008?

Quoting nycdave (Reply 85):
Well, in all fairness, that IS the end of the (proposed) line

It is, in all fairness, not.

Quoting nycdave (Reply 85):
the E will reliably be the faster route

How lovely it is to take the E train through Queens after arriving in the United States....(that is sarcasm)

Quoting iadbudd (Reply 93):
Air India did not really give IAD a fair chance

Yup. If I recall, they calculated that it was cheaper to add the IAD tag-on than to have it parked at JFK for all those hours...

Quoting iadbudd (Reply 93):
They were using their 777-300 from JFK to drop down to IAD, then returned to JFK before going back to India.

Was it a 77W or a 77L? I can't recall.

Quoting iadbudd (Reply 93):
QR has really tapped into the large Indian community in D.C. More than half of QR,s daily flight to DOH is connecting onto destinations in India.

Absolutely true. And EK will tap into this as well.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: rogercamel
Posted 2012-04-12 03:20:16 and read 2770 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 94):
I'm not sure I agree with this. In the case of Washington, you have an artificailly (government) constrained airport, DCA, that is vastly more convenient for most (but certainly not all) travellers. The convenience combined with the limited number of slots, aircraft size, and destinations all distort prices. I think that when the Silver Line is complete there will be more of a balance between the two. It's essentially leveling the playing field. There will still be the normal different modes available to all travellers--businessman will continue to take black towncars regardless of the Metro--but having Metro access at both airports (plus BWI) should even things out a bit.

I agree that this is an upside that IAD will have - the amount of benefit will depend somewhat on the amount fare differential between the DCA and IAD, and the actual door to airport journey time of the two options on the Metro.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: alphaomega
Posted 2012-04-12 05:02:06 and read 2742 times.

Quoting OURBOEING (Reply 92):
Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 7):
Air India from DEL

Well, Air India already tried that last year and stopped. Don't know why.

There is such a large Indian community in the DC area and anyone doing a non-stop to Delhi or Mumbai will do well.
Quoting iadbudd (Reply 93):

Air India did not really give IAD a fair chance. They were using their 777-300 from JFK to drop down to IAD, then returned to JFK before going back to India. QR has really tapped into the large Indian community in D.C. More than half of QR,s daily flight to DOH is connecting onto destinations in India.

The problem with what AI did was they used IAD as a tag on flight to a very successful JFK flight. When your flights are full out of JFK, its fairly difficult to tag on an extra destination just because the aircraft is sitting in JFK all day.

There were only 15-25 pax on each flight because there were no seats available JFK-India on either flight, so they spent thousands of $$ to increase a load factor from 95% to 99%. AI local management knew this was the issue but it was basically a marketing campaign to support their planned non-stop IAD-CCU.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: izbtmnhd
Posted 2012-04-12 05:57:11 and read 2701 times.

Quoting rogercamel (Reply 95):

Between the increasing fares the system will charge because of this expansion and it's existing (and growing) service problems I don't think it will be as convenient as some on here are portaying. Anyone who has ridden the system over the last few years to more than just a Caps game knows what I'm talking about. Rush hour delays aren't getting better even with the single tracking repair issues that cause delays at night and over the weekend to fix the system. Those projections METRO are using for times to Dulles aren't realistic, ask anyone who commutes to Shady Grove. IMHO, it's not going to have a great effect on overall pax traffic to IAD.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-04-12 06:24:17 and read 2687 times.

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 96):
There were only 15-25 pax on each flight because there were no seats available JFK-India on either flight, so they spent thousands of $$ to increase a load factor from 95% to 99%

As I said above, at the time they said it was cheaper to have the tag-on to IAD than to park it at JFK for it's long turn-around.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 97):
I don't think it will be as convenient as some on here are portaying

We go through this pretty often on here. It will not be remotely as convenient as DCA, but it will be a fine option for tourists/local VFR/students, etc.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 97):
IMHO, it's not going to have a great effect on overall pax traffic to IAD.

I don't think it will have a "great" effect, but as I said a few times above, I think it will help level the playing field a bit between DCA and IAD. People will be more likely to book a flight from Dulles, and DCA will command less of a fare premium as a result. Before you jump at me, I'm not talking about high-end business travellers. I'm talking about the 95% of us who don't have black towncars to drive us to the airport.

As somebody who lives in DC, there is a stigma about booking a flight from Dulles now and this most certainly means people book DCA (or even BWI) whenever possible. This will go away once the Silver Line opens.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: izbtmnhd
Posted 2012-04-12 06:45:17 and read 2673 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 98):
We go through this pretty often on here. It will not be remotely as convenient as DCA, but it will be a fine option for tourists/local VFR/students, etc.

It was stated on some thread that it takes 30 minutes to get from Vienna to Chinatown. I'm not doubting the validity but the odds of that happening again are along the lines of the recent Mega Millions lottery.

For an inital period, I agree with you. But people that plan be at the airport x hours before departure will have to wait 10-15 minutes for a train then another 20 at Ballston or East Falls Church due to single tracking on a Saturday afternoon will get turned off pretty quickly. And single tracking happens a lot on evenings and weekends on the Orange/Blue lines. Rush hour brings a whole other list of issues. METRO is so "convienent" at those hours these days that regular commuters are driving again

That's why I'm not a huge fan of the Silver line, expanding while the current system is underfunded and falling apart isn't too wise a move, IMHO.

[Edited 2012-04-12 06:47:46]

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-04-12 08:07:08 and read 2639 times.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 97):
Between the increasing fares the system will charge because of this expansion and it's existing (and growing) service problems I don't think it will be as convenient as some on here are portaying. Anyone who has ridden the system over the last few years to more than just a Caps game knows what I'm talking about. Rush hour delays aren't getting better even with the single tracking repair issues that cause delays at night and over the weekend to fix the system. Those projections METRO are using for times to Dulles aren't realistic, ask anyone who commutes to Shady Grove. IMHO, it's not going to have a great effect on overall pax traffic to IAD.

Parallels with CTA perhaps?

--Build some rickety old line up the middle of the Kennedy Freeway, and no one will ride it (Not true in spades).

--When the Blue Line has service issues, riders will abandon it like rats leaving a sinking ship (Not true -- even when trains were restricted to 30 mph and freeway traffic was speeding past the trains).

--With a 45-50 minute ride downtown to the Loop, no one will ride it (Not true -- until the train goes underground, half the rollerbag traffic is sightseeing out of the train windows).

--ORD airport workers would rather drive than use the Blue Line (Not true -- workers ride the train right into the airport -- out of the weather -- rather than parking in a remote lot and waiting for a 10 minute shuttle ride.

I guess we won't know for sure until the Silver Line actually opens.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2012-04-12 08:18:13 and read 2623 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 75):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 74):
As for people using the train, I'm sure you'll find plenty of leisure travelers willing to take the long train ride (to save money).

Yup. The price disparity between cabs to Dulles and the Metro are just too great.

Not to mention traffic as well. Granted, when you're not driving it's not as big a deal, but given x cab fare to IAD, vs. ~$5 via Metro, that's a pretty competitive offer. Although my guess is the real difference will end up being from the current Metro>Flyer>IAD or Metro>5A>IAD options rather than between taking a cab and Metro all the way to IAD.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-04-12 08:23:53 and read 2626 times.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 101):
Although my guess is the real difference will end up being from the current Metro>Flyer>IAD or Metro>5A>IAD options rather than between taking a cab and Metro all the way to IAD.

It will be a little of everything, though I agree that Flyer and 5A will have a limited future post-Silver Line (though lots of people commute on the 5A!). I often wind up biting the bullet and taking a cab to IAD for a variety of reasons (early morning, etc). But the Metro will no doubt attract a broad swath of the VFR money-sensitive traffic.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: iadbudd
Posted 2012-04-12 08:47:53 and read 2603 times.

Altough Metro is going through long neglected repairs for the foreseeable future, and is componunded by the fact Metro never built a third track, Metro to IAD is still a good thing. IAD is such a big international airport, when you take a long trip to Europe, even the cheapest economy parking fee adds up. Eventually the system will be up to par, disruptions to a minimum. At least they will finaly have a rail option, as most major airports in the world have. The 5A metrobus is a popular option, but the city busses do not accomidate luggage to well. Often it is hard to walk down the isles dodging all the big bags.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: LOWS
Posted 2012-04-12 08:57:16 and read 2595 times.

Quoting iadbudd (Reply 103):
Altough Metro is going through long neglected repairs for the foreseeable future, and is componunded by the fact Metro never built a third track, Metro to IAD is still a good thing. IAD is such a big international airport, when you take a long trip to Europe, even the cheapest economy parking fee adds up. Eventually the system will be up to par, disruptions to a minimum. At least they will finaly have a rail option, as most major airports in the world have. The 5A metrobus is a popular option, but the city busses do not accomidate luggage to well. Often it is hard to walk down the isles dodging all the big bags.

When I had an unplanned night in IAD back in December, I went to visit a friend of mine who works in DC. I took a cab from IAD for 70$ but caught the bus back. It was absolutely not the right kind of bus for that route. A MB Interregio bus (with storage for bags) would be much more appropriate. The small urban bus was completely full.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: WAC
Posted 2012-04-12 11:33:12 and read 2551 times.

Maybe IAD should take ICN as an example...for a very long time 9-10 years ICN did not have a rail service into seoul and then for a while you needed to change a GMP. ICN has a ton of airport and express buses very easy fast and luxurious.....dedicate special bus lanes on the main highways into IAD and DC....simple...but as always I guess someone somewhere will get in the way..

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-04-12 12:04:23 and read 2526 times.

Quoting WAC (Reply 105):
.....dedicate special bus lanes on the main highways into IAD and DC....

There are dedicated lanes to IAD that generally don't have traffic. The highway that leads to these dedicated lanes does get backed up at rush hour...But I don't know if "non-stop" express bus service has ever been tried from IAD to downtown DC...

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: gigneil
Posted 2012-04-12 13:33:01 and read 2488 times.

[/quote]

Quoting LOWS (Reply 104):
It was absolutely not the right kind of bus for that route. A MB Interregio bus (with storage for bags) would be much more appropriate. The small urban bus was completely full.

ALL 5A buses have overhead luggage storage.

That being said, they're also always packed to the gills. Running a double-length bus at least would be preferable.

NS

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: capitalflyer
Posted 2012-04-12 15:53:38 and read 2437 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 94):
-more people will be willing to fly out of Dulles for a lower fare

IAD is actually one of the top 5 most expensive airports in the country in terms of domestic fares. Way above DCA. UA fortress hub anyone?

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: Schweigend
Posted 2012-04-12 22:42:04 and read 2368 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 98):
As somebody who lives in DC, there is a stigma about booking a flight from Dulles now and this most certainly means people book DCA (or even BWI) whenever possible. This will go away once the Silver Line opens.

I think you're right -- every time I've flown into IAD, I've rented a car, which can be a drag. When it's DCA, I use the metro.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 108):
IAD is actually one of the top 5 most expensive airports in the country in terms of domestic fares. Way above DCA. UA fortress hub anyone?


I'm not so sure of that, but I haven't seen the numbers. What particular IAD city-pairs have higher average fares than DCA?

We have to consider that IAD has service to U.S. cities outside DCA's perimeter, not to mention Asia, Europe, S. America, and Africa. Many pax using Dulles are going to these places. Fares on such longer IAD routes would understandably be higher than what DCA can charge with what it has on its plate, particularly if we include int'l J and F pax.

A better comparison of prices at DCA v. IAD would be limited to O&D destinations the two airports share, not an average of all routes served. And such a comparison should also include BWI.

 

[Edited 2012-04-12 23:22:01]

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-04-13 06:48:18 and read 2311 times.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 108):

IAD is actually one of the top 5 most expensive airports in the country in terms of domestic fares. Way above DCA. UA fortress hub anyone?
Quoting Schweigend (Reply 109):
A better comparison of prices at DCA v. IAD would be limited to O&D destinations the two airports share, not an average of all routes served. And such a comparison should also include BWI.

Yes. Capitalflyer, I've seen you post this a few times already and I haven't seen your data, but I can tell you what my experience has been as somebody who regularly books flights out of Washington: IAD and BWI are almost always cheaper than DCA. Of course the airlines with hubs play crazy games with airfares to preserve the O&D/Connecting ratio, so it's really hard to measure...But for what it's worth, IAD & BWI are almost always cheaper for DC flyers.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: msp747
Posted 2012-04-13 08:23:56 and read 2284 times.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 108):
IAD is actually one of the top 5 most expensive airports in the country in terms of domestic fares. Way above DCA. UA fortress hub anyone?

That's because most of the domestic flights out of IAD are on UA, which isn't going to give you a deal if they don't have to. On the routes where they face competition, the fares are much lower. But since they don't face competition on many of their routes, that's going to make fares look worse. When comparing IAD to DCA, I usually find the better deal with the times I want out of IAD. Not all the time, but usually. BWI is always cheaper, but for people living in Northern Virginia, that's not convenient. I'll pay a little more or even take a connecting flight most of the time to avoid an hour + drive, that usually has me stuck in traffic.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 99):

It was stated on some thread that it takes 30 minutes to get from Vienna to Chinatown. I'm not doubting the validity but the odds of that happening again are along the lines of the recent Mega Millions lottery.

I am the one that stated this and I am the one that takes this route often, on weekdays and weekends, and at all different times of the day. If there is no single tracking, it usually takes about 30 minutes. When the entire system is up and running, wait times are almost nonexistent. Obviously single tracking slows things down and makes connections more time consuming, but it usually happens only on weekends and isn't going to be like this forever. They are in the middle of a major overhaul for the entire system. I'm guessing single tracking will not be as big of hassle by the time trains start rolling down the Silver Line.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: capitalflyer
Posted 2012-04-13 17:20:59 and read 2200 times.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 109):
I'm not so sure of that, but I haven't seen the numbers.
IAD is almost $100 more than DCA on average.

http://1.usa.gov/a89VtW

[Edited 2012-04-13 17:22:17]

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: capitalflyer
Posted 2012-04-13 17:33:00 and read 2177 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 110):
as somebody who regularly books flights out of Washington: IAD and BWI are almost always cheaper than DCA.

I defer to your experience. I only fly a couple times a year. My most recent experience however I saved nearly $200 flying out of DCA instead of IAD. And any time I search for my most frequent flight (to SBN), DCA is usually the same or slightly cheaper than IAD (although not cheap enough to justify parking fees and 45 minute drive. I live next door to IAD!).

Seems with regards to airfare the motto is. . . destination, destination, destination.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: crazyguineapig
Posted 2012-04-13 17:40:26 and read 2172 times.

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 110):

Hm, I trust your input. It's not that I don't believe you, I'm just saying that you've might come to this conclusion because you compare IAD and DCA fares to only some (or maybe even to one that you travel on most often) destinations; I know for example that going from DCA to BDL is usually cheaper from IAD, yet somehow IAD flights to MIA are never more expensive than DCA, sometimes even cheaper.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 112):

Wow, Dulles is really high up the list!

Quoting msp747 (Reply 111):

Your exactly right. The difference here is that UA is making it rain at IAD whereas US is the main operator out of DCA; it doesn't even matter that they're both in the same alliance. Two completely different carriers worlds apart when it comes to fares and strategy. I wonder if there's room for a second airline to make at least a quasi-hub at IAD, but I doubt so in the age of mergers and what not. I wonder if this list was different when Independence Air still existed.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: capitalflyer
Posted 2012-04-13 21:25:35 and read 2115 times.

Quoting crazyguineapig (Reply 114):
I wonder if this list was different when Independence Air still existed

In a word, yup. DOT did a study on Indy Air's affect on fares.

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/dom...tition/SF-1Q05_IndependenceAir.pdf

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-04-14 09:14:42 and read 2032 times.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 113):
My most recent experience however I saved nearly $200 flying out of DCA instead of IAD.

To where?

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 113):
to SBN), DCA is usually the same or slightly cheaper than IAD (although not cheap enough to justify parking fees and 45 minute drive. I live next door to IAD!).
Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 113):
Seems with regards to airfare the motto is. . . destination, destination, destination.

Yup, you are very right.

Quoting crazyguineapig (Reply 114):
I'm just saying that you've might come to this conclusion because you compare IAD and DCA fares to only some (or maybe even to one that you travel on most often) destinations;

Sure.

Quoting crazyguineapig (Reply 114):
I know for example that going from DCA to BDL is usually cheaper from IAD, yet somehow IAD flights to MIA are never more expensive than DCA, sometimes even cheaper.

Perhaps what we can extrapolate is that flights to key business destinations are more expensive out of DCA (presumably because many business travelers do pay extra for the convenience), and flights to secondary cities with more limited capacity have expensive fares out of IAD.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: izbtmnhd
Posted 2012-04-14 12:43:34 and read 1998 times.

I never said that people won't ride the train to IAD just that it will not change the dynamic between IAD and DCA.

As for the 5A buses, part of the problem is that they aren't operated that frequently and many employees use them. They're small too.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 100):
--Build some rickety old line up the middle of the Kennedy Freeway, and no one will ride it (Not true in spades).

I love JFK's AirTrain. It has a conveinent connection to each terminal. It consolidtates all car rental and hotel facilities at Federal Circle. It was has two connection points to the MTA along with the transportation hub at Jamaica for the LIRR. You can rail straight to long term parking. It's light years ahead of the station they'll be building at Dulles.

You want to change the dynamic between IAD and DCA, a heavy rail station by Daily Parking Lot 1 isn't going do it. Long Term Parking? Daily Lot 2? Rental Cars? Hotels? Still by bus from the Main Terminal. Connection to a transportation hub like at Jamaica? VRE and Metro split like a V from downtown so if you're going anywhere outside of the Silver Line area, it's still by cab. Convienent connection to the Main Terminal from the Dulles Rail Station? No. See where I'm getting at.

Also, in regards to your point about ridership in general on Metro, ridership peaked before the Fort Totten accident in 2009.

Quoting iadbudd (Reply 103):
Eventually the system will be up to par, disruptions to a minimum.

That's not what Metro officials are saying. They're saying they don't have enough money to complete all repairs. That's why they are asking for a dedicated source of funding. They're fixing highest priority stuff. Disruptions will continue for many years ahead.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 111):
I am the one that stated this and I am the one that takes this route often, on weekdays and weekends, and at all different times of the day. If there is no single tracking, it usually takes about 30 minutes. When the entire system is up and running, wait times are almost nonexistent. Obviously single tracking slows things down and makes connections more time consuming, but it usually happens only on weekends and isn't going to be like this forever. They are in the middle of a major overhaul for the entire system. I'm guessing single tracking will not be as big of hassle by the time trains start rolling down the Silver Line.


I take the Orange/Blue from West Falls Church and it takes me over 30 minutes to get to Chinatown in rush or non-rush hours. When the entire system is up, there are choke points at Rosslyn/Metro Center/Chinatown. When the system is non-rush, wait times can be up to 10 minutes for a train, longer on late nights. Metro officals admit that single tracking fixes won't be done by the time the Silver Line is up as well.

I like Metro but it's a system that's not aging well.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-04-14 13:41:12 and read 1973 times.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 112):
IAD is almost $100 more than DCA on average.

But much of that is due to the type of trips being taken. IAD has far more transcon flights versus DCA...hence average fare is higher.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-04-14 13:52:08 and read 1962 times.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 112):
Quoting Schweigend (Reply 109):
I'm not so sure of that, but I haven't seen the numbers.IAD is almost $100 more than DCA on average.

That doesn't seem unusual considering the DCA perimiter rule.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-04-14 14:04:38 and read 1956 times.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 117):
It's light years ahead of the station they'll be building at Dulles.

Hardly, hah. Dulles will have a one-seat ride into downtown, something NY transit planners have been dreaming about for decades.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: nycdave
Posted 2012-04-14 19:22:11 and read 1875 times.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 117):

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 100):
--Build some rickety old line up the middle of the Kennedy Freeway, and no one will ride it (Not true in spades).

I love JFK's AirTrain. It has a conveinent connection to each terminal. It consolidtates all car rental and hotel facilities at Federal Circle. It was has two connection points to the MTA along with the transportation hub at Jamaica for the LIRR. You can rail straight to long term parking. It's light years ahead of the station they'll be building at Dulles.

Errrr... I do believe he was referring to transit to ORD, not JFK. I can understand the confusion... but the expressway to JFK the AirTrain runs down is named the Van Wyck, not Kennedy. The expressway the CTA Blue Line runs down, however... IS the Kennedy.

That said, I do think there is a much more clear analogy between the CTA Blue Line and the Metro Silver Line. Now if someone could pull up the actual ridership and transportation modality breakdown instead of just sharing their personal impressions and estimates...

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 120):
Hardly, hah. Dulles will have a one-seat ride into downtown, something NY transit planners have been dreaming about for decades.

Very true... thanks a ton, Bob Moses! Should be noted, however, that the AirTrain JFK infrastructure was built so that it can, in the future, accomodate heavy rail from either the LIRR or NYCT Subway... Not that you'll ever see a subway or LIRR train riding down the Van Wyck (they're far too long for the stations), but a dedicated service could, using future connections, ride straight from the airport to midtown or downtown.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2012-04-14 23:24:28 and read 1831 times.

Quoting OURBOEING (Reply 92):
Well, Air India already tried that last year and stopped. Don't know why.

There is such a large Indian community in the DC area and anyone doing a non-stop to Delhi or Mumbai will do well.

Given that it was tried and failed seems to point to a lack of viable demand. Yes theres many Indians all over the globe, but whether that equates to a decent yield to sustain such services is another matter.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2012-04-15 07:03:59 and read 1781 times.

Quoting OURBOEING (Reply 92):
There is such a large Indian community in the DC area and anyone doing a non-stop to Delhi or Mumbai will do well.

I know at one time KL had a IAD-AMS-DEL routing because of this.

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: washingtonian
Posted 2012-04-15 07:17:18 and read 1766 times.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 122):
Given that it was tried and failed seems to point to a lack of viable demand.

See Reply 96.

Quoting nycdave (Reply 121):
but a dedicated service could, using future connections, ride straight from the airport to midtown or downtown.

Yes. It is theoretically possible. Want to wager money on if it will happen in the next 10-20 years?

Topic: RE: Rapid IAD Airline Expansion Lately?
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2012-04-15 07:38:01 and read 1754 times.

Quoting OURBOEING (Reply 92):
ll, Air India already tried that last year and stopped. Don't know why.There is such a large Indian community in the DC area and anyone doing a non-stop to Delhi or Mumbai will do well

You may have put your finger on the problem -- DC Indians come from all over the place.

So Indians using QR IAD-DOH and then changing to 12 different Indian cities (north, south,east,west) seems to do well and keep QR loads up.


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