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Topic: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: dc9northwest
Posted 2012-04-24 08:31:47 and read 14217 times.

I was reading a Romanian forum post regarding AF's domestic configuration in their A320s... The poster says he travelled in an A320 configured with over 180 seats (in the 185-189 range), on a domestic AF flight.

I thought that the maximum configuration of an A320 was 180 seats. Now, knowing AF's 777s with the dreaded 3-4-3 config, I have no doubt AF would try to fit in 189 seats if they could. However, this leaves me with a few questions:

1) Has anyone travelled on an AF A320 with over 180 seats? Any other airline... maybe easyjet?
2) Am I right in that the max passenger capacity is 180?
3) If I'm right, and if this configuration does indeed exist... how come? Would it not be a safety risk during an evacuation?
4) Why do neither AF nor seatguru websites show this configuration?

I don't know what to think. That's why I'm posting this here; maybe someone has certain information on this topic.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: Packcheer
Posted 2012-04-24 08:46:34 and read 14124 times.

stab in the dark... maybe something was lost in translation? 180 passengers and 9 crew?

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2012-04-24 09:08:02 and read 13997 times.

Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):
4) Why do neither AF nor seatguru websites show this configuration?

Seatguru shows this one with 184 seats in the domestic AF A320's.

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air...rance_Airbus_A320_Metropole_V1.php

-CXfirst

[Edited 2012-04-24 09:10:14]

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: dc9northwest
Posted 2012-04-24 09:17:08 and read 13936 times.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 2):

That's simply miscounted by seatguru. If you notice there's no row 13, then that's 29*6-3+7=178 seats. They counted an extra row which doesn't exist...

Quoting Packcheer (Reply 1):
stab in the dark... maybe something was lost in translation? 180 passengers and 9 crew?

Sorry, no... The discussion was about seats, not passengers.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-04-24 10:58:03 and read 13597 times.

Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):

Easyjet's A320s carry 183 pax, so it must be legal (at least in Europe).

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: Crosswind
Posted 2012-04-24 11:16:13 and read 13452 times.

The A320 is exit-limited to 180 passenger seats maximum, the maximum number that can be fitted... easyJet A320s (and many other airlines') have 180 seats.

Regards
CROSSWIND

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: BasilFawlty
Posted 2012-04-24 11:16:29 and read 13454 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 4):
Easyjet's A320s carry 183 pax, so it must be legal (at least in Europe).

No they don't, they carry 180 pax. The A320 is certified with a maximum of 180 seats, so all stories and websites showing more seats then 180 are rubbish.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: dc9northwest
Posted 2012-04-24 12:10:34 and read 13251 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 6):
No they don't, they carry 180 pax. The A320 is certified with a maximum of 180 seats, so all stories and websites showing more seats then 180 are rubbish.
Quoting Crosswind (Reply 5):
The A320 is exit-limited to 180 passenger seats maximum, the maximum number that can be fitted... easyJet A320s (and many other airlines') have 180 seats.

Thanks a lot, guys... That's what I thought.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: airproxx
Posted 2012-04-24 12:14:24 and read 13224 times.

Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):

I don't know what to think. That's why I'm posting this here; maybe someone has certain information on this topic.

AF max seats configuration on domestic A320 is 178 seats.

Dave

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: CRJ900
Posted 2012-04-24 12:17:07 and read 13212 times.

How come the A320 can only carry 180 pax when the B737-800 can have 189 pax with the same number of exits? Four main doors and four overwing exits...

The Airbus main doors look slighty larger than the Boeing doors too.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: airproxx
Posted 2012-04-24 12:18:57 and read 13193 times.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
How come the A320 can only carry 180 pax when the B737-800 can have 189 pax with the same number of exits? Four main doors and four overwing exits...

Call Ziegler @ Airbus and EASA  

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: nws2002
Posted 2012-04-24 12:24:42 and read 13151 times.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
How come the A320 can only carry 180 pax when the B737-800 can have 189 pax with the same number of exits? Four main doors and four overwing exits...

The Airbus main doors look slighty larger than the Boeing doors too.

I don't know the answer, but could it have something to do with the hinged window exits that swing upward and out of the way?

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-04-24 12:32:38 and read 13100 times.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
How come the A320 can only carry 180 pax when the B737-800 can have 189 pax with the same number of exits? Four main doors and four overwing exits...

Just a guess but it might be related to the 737NG's emergency exits which are hinged at the top and should open more quickly than the old-style exits on the A320 that have to be physically removed and thrown out of the aircraft. Could mean a few seconds difference that may affect the number of passengers that can evacuate the aircraft in 90 seconds with only half the exits available and in darkness. I think that's the evacuation requirement that must be demonstrated prior to certification.

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/schiphol/images/27830/turkish-airlines-737-800-crash-at-amsterdam.jpg

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: AADC10
Posted 2012-04-24 12:50:09 and read 13014 times.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
How come the A320 can only carry 180 pax when the B737-800 can have 189 pax with the same number of exits?

Airbus probably only did an evacuation test for 180 because they did not believe back when it was certified that airlines would cram in more seats than that. They might be able to re-certify for additional passengers, but why encourage that kind of thing?

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2012-04-24 12:57:27 and read 12989 times.

Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):
The poster says he travelled in an A320 configured with over 180 seats (in the 185-189 range), on a domestic AF flight.

Imposible.

The A320 is certified for 180 seats. NO airline anywhere in the world can have more than 180 seats in an A320.

Air France's A320 used on the domestic network have 178 seats, the A320 used for European flights have 165 seats.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: mickey90
Posted 2012-04-24 13:59:44 and read 12753 times.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
How come the A320 can only carry 180 pax when the B737-800 can have 189 pax with the same number of exits? Four main doors and four overwing exits...

The Airbus main doors look slighty larger than the Boeing doors too.

I guess it's because the 738 is a bit longer than the a320. The 739 has the same number of exit doors as the 738 but is limited to just 189 pax due to this, but the 739ER has a pair of extra exit doors and is certified for 215 passengers.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2012-04-24 14:03:08 and read 12730 times.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 13):
They might be able to re-certify for additional passengers, but why encourage that kind of thing?

lol good point!

I guess we have it good with jetBlue at 150 seats...makes for a nice comfy ride  

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-04-24 14:21:26 and read 12636 times.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 14):
Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):
The poster says he travelled in an A320 configured with over 180 seats (in the 185-189 range), on a domestic AF flight.

Imposible.

The A320 is certified for 180 seats. NO airline anywhere in the world can have more than 180 seats in an A320.

Air France's A320 used on the domestic network have 178 seats, the A320 used for European flights have 165 seats.

And, even if the A320 was certified for more than 180 seats, is there room to add more seats? Airbus shows the 180-seat configuration at 28/29 inch pitch which is already extremely tight. To add even one more row of seats would mean reducing pitch by at least one inch. Many people can barefly fit in 30 or 31 inch pitch seats. How would they possibly fit at 27 inches? Any other changes to add more seats would mean eliminating the rear lavatories or making other major design changes.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-04-24 16:51:23 and read 12398 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 6):
The A320 is certified with a maximum of 180 seats, so all stories and websites showing more seats then 180 are rubbish.

So then the seatguru entry on Easyjet is just plain wrong, since it shows 183 seats on their A320s.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2012-04-24 18:27:31 and read 12142 times.

Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):
The poster says he travelled in an A320 configured with over 180 seats (in the 185-189 range), on a domestic AF flight.
Quoting CXfirst (Reply 2):
Seatguru shows this one with 184 seats in the domestic AF A320's.
Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 3):
That's simply miscounted by seatguru. If you notice there's no row 13, then that's 29*6-3+7=178 seats. They counted an extra row which doesn't exist...

That's probably why that Forum poster sayshe travelled in an A320 with more than 180 seats. I bet he didn't manually count all the seats, but rather looked at seatguru and took their number as the actual number.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: bucchinij
Posted 2012-04-24 19:03:53 and read 11820 times.

From the FAA's Type Certificate Data Sheet:

Type A320-100/200 Series Transport Category Airplanes

Maximum Passengers:
179

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...064e941/$FILE/A28NM%20Rev%2011.pdf

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: dc9northwest
Posted 2012-04-24 19:10:46 and read 11747 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 18):
So then the seatguru entry on Easyjet is just plain wrong, since it shows 183 seats on their A320s.

Yes it is, as seatguru often is, unfortunately....

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 16):
I guess we have it good with jetBlue at 150 seats...makes for a nice comfy ride

I'll see in early June. I'm looking forward to it... hopefully all the hype won't kill the experience  
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 14):
Imposible.

The A320 is certified for 180 seats. NO airline anywhere in the world can have more than 180 seats in an A320.

Air France's A320 used on the domestic network have 178 seats, the A320 used for European flights have 165 seats.

Thank you very much, sir.

Yes, indeed, I've pointed him to the official AF site, which clearly shows the 178-seat configuration... He insists there was a row 13 (which I've never seen on AF, and I've travelled reasonably often on their Airbus fleet...

Quoting bucchinij (Reply 20):
From the FAA's Type Certificate Data Sheet:

Type A320-100/200 Series Transport Category Airplanes

Maximum Passengers:
179

Indeed. I heard it was initially 179, then extended to 180 passengers.

Well, thanks to everyone who contributed. I thought it was very unlikely there existed a configuration of over 180 seats, but I hate being wrong and thought I'd ask here as well.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 19):
That's probably why that Forum poster sayshe travelled in an A320 with more than 180 seats. I bet he didn't manually count all the seats, but rather looked at seatguru and took their number as the actual number.

That is indeed a fair point  

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: LimaFoxTango
Posted 2012-04-24 19:19:20 and read 11690 times.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 16):

I guess we have it good with jetBlue at 150 seats...makes for a nice comfy ride

Very! Makes you wonder why one would pay for an Even More Space seat. I was very impressed with the legroom the normal seats have.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: GSTBA
Posted 2012-04-24 19:20:31 and read 11665 times.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 8):
F max seats configuration on domestic A320 is 178 seats.

That is alot of pax on a non low cost airline A320. Especially when you look at there european rivals

AY's A320's have a max seat configuration of 159 seats
AZ's A320's have a max seat configuration of 165 seats
BA's A320's have a max seat configuration of 162 seats
LH's A320's have a max seat configuration of 168 seats
TP's A320's have a max seat configuration of 162 seats


AF's A318's also by the looks of things like to cram it's passengers into a A318 which can have a max single class seat configuration 131Y. That's only 1 less seat than BA have on there A319's

F9's A318;s have a max seat configuration of 120 seats
RO's A318;s have a max seat configuration of 113 seats

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2012-04-24 21:59:03 and read 10719 times.

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 22):
Very! Makes you wonder why one would pay for an Even More Space seat. I was very impressed with the legroom the normal seats have.

I often wonder the same thing...the security motive they advertise is hardly worth it (I rarely spend any time waiting to get though...granted I fly early AM and late PM...in fact on a flight tomorrow leaving early...wont have an issue)

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 21):
I'll see in early June. I'm looking forward to it... hopefully all the hype won't kill the experience

I don't think so   They became my #1 domestic airline for a reason...comfort, the Dtv, mostly happy crew....it really is the small stupid stuff.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2012-04-25 03:38:51 and read 8655 times.

Seat Capacity of Air France A320 family aircraft :

A318 : 131 seats
A319 : 138 seats (Europe) - 142 (Domestic)
A320 : 165 seats (Europe) - 178 (Domestic)
A321 : 200 seats (Europe) - 212 (Domestic)

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: GT4EZY
Posted 2012-04-25 04:02:43 and read 8407 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 18):
So then the seatguru entry on Easyjet is just plain wrong, since it shows 183 seats on their A320s.

It must be. Easyjet A320's carry 180 pax max.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2012-04-25 08:12:52 and read 5959 times.

Quoting dc9northwest (Thread starter):
3) If I'm right, and if this configuration does indeed exist... how come? Would it not be a safety risk during an evacuation?

No airline will EVER be allowed to have one single more seat that the max certified number. Even FR does abide.


Quoting GSTBA (Reply 23):
That is alot of pax on a non low cost airline A320. Especially when you look at there european rivals

AY's A320's have a max seat configuration of 159 seats
AZ's A320's have a max seat configuration of 165 seats
BA's A320's have a max seat configuration of 162 seats
LH's A320's have a max seat configuration of 168 seats
TP's A320's have a max seat configuration of 162 seats

To know is that AF has no true business class seats on their A320s. Rather, they block the middle seats of the front rows. It allows the flexibility of doing all-Y domestic runs and some European flights with business class with the same aircraft. Although it is indeed not a true business class. For the cattle class, however, they are just exactly the same as all others within one inch.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: TZTriStar500
Posted 2012-04-25 20:26:04 and read 5272 times.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 21):
Indeed. I heard it was initially 179, then extended to 180 passengers.

Maybe for EASA, but the FAA TCDS limit is and remains at 179. This is one of the oddities of the A320 between FAA and EASA certification.

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2012-04-26 00:19:38 and read 5144 times.

I remember there was some program currently to allow 3 more seats on each of the A320 family members by reshuffling what is behind them - anybody remembers more or knows if this will eventually lead to a future 183 max pax number?

Topic: RE: AF A320 With 189 Seats?
Username: Pihero
Posted 2012-04-26 01:35:44 and read 5060 times.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 27):
To know is that AF has no true business class seats on their A320s. Rather, they block the middle seats of the front rows. It allows the flexibility of doing all-Y domestic runs and some European flights with business class with the same aircraft. Although it is indeed not a true business class. For the cattle class, however, they are just exactly the same as all others within one inch.

Not quite :
1/- The middle seat folds forward, making a surface - and a small table - between the two seats.
2/- The arm rests are unlocked to be pulled sideways to increase the width of the seat
3/- The seat back is unlocked to allow a much increased reclining angle
4/- The seat blocks are moved for a greater leg room

The result is that a cabin can be tailored - very quickly - to the clientele of each flight.

The max certified seating capacity has nothing to do with the physical dimensions of the cabin, or the number and type of the exits (I and III), but with the initial bid of the OEM.

For the curious, this is a pre-380-and-787 table of the FAA certs :
FAA max seating

[Edited 2012-04-26 01:51:15]


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