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Topic: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: BDL757
Posted 2012-05-12 01:07:53 and read 16157 times.

First off, this is more speculation than anything because at this point it seems most likely that American and US Airways will merge. I've read the DL Interested In Acquiring AMR? threads and didn't really think much of it. I was reading some industry articles online and found an interesting piece: IAG eyes luring Delta into Oneworld pact which was written in just back in March.

I just wanted peoples take on this. It seemed like IAG was looking to put money into AMR if they could team up with another airline to do it and it's interesting that they (possibly) thought of DL as the carrier to do it with. I initially never even thought a DL/AA merger would get past the DOJ but if you think about it:

-There would certainly be overlap in the NYC market but even if the new airline surrendered slots they could still be a powerhouse in the NYC market
-The new airline would have the southwest/lower midwest covered with AA's hub in DFW
-The new airline would have the southeast covered with DL's hub in ATL
-Merging operations in LAX create a much stronger/viable hub
-South America covered by MIA and a NRT hub for Asia
-They only issue would be the MSP/ORD/DTW situation
-DL/AA have a relatively complementary fleet

Anyway the article was thought provoking...what do you think of it? A legitimate idea or more of a fluff piece?

-BDL757

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: chepos
Posted 2012-05-12 01:37:59 and read 16081 times.

If DL makes a move for AA it would be to dismantle the carrier, MIA is what they would be attracted to the most. If they were to go for the airline as whole this would make for too big of an operation most prob resulting in a heck of alot of AA people being sacked, let's not mention this making it through the DOJ. You would see the outrage from half of Texas as the airline would definitely move everything from centreport to the ATL. Yeah, I'm sure AA employees really want DL to take them over.

[Edited 2012-05-12 01:44:13]

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: 5MillionMiler
Posted 2012-05-12 01:46:13 and read 16028 times.

I don't think the regulators would ever allow that -- both two big to merge. US would work. Hope AA survives in OneWorld, and if US joins the party moves to OW and DFW should be HQ.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-05-12 02:06:03 and read 15942 times.

Impossible too large for federal approval. US would have to take dfw and ord and Delta would be forced to give up some lga/jfk euro peak timed slots at a minimum or something like that. I doubt the three way can happen, I still think it's rough but us and AA is probably more likely and has momentum right now.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2012-05-12 02:43:52 and read 15824 times.

I don't think a merger of AA with anyone is good for the traveling public. An AA/US merger would be a disaster. US hasn't even settled all the union issues, yet, with their merger with HP. A DL/AA merger would just be to big of an airline, initially with about 1200+ airplanes, although the MD-82/-83/-88s would all be gone before to long, as would the older B-757s and B-762s. The B-787 MOU, A-32X order, A-32X-NEO order, and B-737MAX order may all get canceled. But DL would increase the B-77W order.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2012-05-12 03:12:15 and read 15700 times.

Quoting chepos (Reply 1):
Yeah, I'm sure AA employees really want DL to take them over.

bet they wouldn't have three pilot groups.   

seeing that they have already made agreements with US, and they are facing large lay-offs anyways, i'd bet if the Delta management team promised to stay they green light Delta too.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2012-05-12 03:44:01 and read 15586 times.

I actually think an AA/DL merger would do nothing but help the combined entity. Having both ATL and DFW would be huge. Every city where DL lacks strength (DFW/LAX/ORD/MIA) is big in the AA network. There would be less competition between LGA and ORD/ATL/DFW, less competition on Transcontinental routes, less competition on JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR, a Latin America powerhouse, a one-carrier deal with AS....I could go on and on. The benefits of such a combination would be absolutely worth the complexities. Even the international aspect is terrific. A tie-up with JL in lieu of KE would be much more complementary to DL's presence in NRT. DL still maintains plenty of capacity to MAD/BCN, which would be perfect for a tie-up with IAG, in addition to all the LHR flying. This is the "next generation" merger in my book and far surpasses a tie-up with US.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: 5MillionMiler
Posted 2012-05-12 07:33:43 and read 14936 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 6):
This is the "next generation" merger in my book and far surpasses a tie-up with US.

Yes it would be a mega merger and create a massive powerhouse in terms of market coverage and reach, but the government would likely never allow it

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: rwy04LGA
Posted 2012-05-12 07:44:41 and read 14717 times.

The AA workforce combined with the pro-union PMNW crowd....Delta would become a union airline. Yuck!

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2012-05-12 09:26:33 and read 13428 times.

Such a merger would effectively destroy US and make UA a clear underdog as well. The network would be unparalleled both domestically and internationally, overall, although UA would still be ahead in Asia/Pacific.

That said, no chance it would be approved by the government so it's a moot point.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: bos2laf
Posted 2012-05-12 10:19:18 and read 12862 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
An AA/US merger would be a disaster. US hasn't even settled all the union issues, yet, with their merger with HP.

But here's the beauty of it... I recall reading somewhere that US/AA would likely propose a direct DOH integration for seniority, which is exactly what the PMUS pilots are feuding with the PMHP pilots over. Basically what the PMHP pilots are pushing for is an adjusted DOH integration, which would royally screw over some very senior US pilots.

When you consider the AA and US pilot groups, they're largely similar in terms of the range of seniority, so a direct DOH integration would likely not ruffle too many feathers....

Except the former HP pilots, who would now be in the minority. If a proposal for direct DOH integration were put to a vote, it would likely pass, and they'd all now be on one contract.

It may sound strange, but this merger may be precisely what US needs to get its pilots on one contract.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: usairways787
Posted 2012-05-12 10:21:54 and read 12842 times.

[quote=rwy04LGA,reply=8]The AA workforce combined with the pro-union PMNW crowd....Delta would become a union airline. Yuck!

One thing you may fail to realize, it isn't just about you, it's about all of us. It will happen eventually, you know it
and DL knows it. It's just a matter of time.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: Flighty
Posted 2012-05-12 10:36:59 and read 12651 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 6):
This is the "next generation" merger in my book and far surpasses a tie-up with US.

There is nothing new or particularly advanced about monopolies.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: CoachClass
Posted 2012-05-12 10:48:27 and read 12543 times.

DL could do what it did to PA: buy routes. DL could take over MIA and all the South America routes. It doesn't need any more European or Asian routes.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: milesrich
Posted 2012-05-12 11:21:53 and read 12245 times.

AA can merge with US/HP, and that combined mess can then take a trip to Bankruptcy Court too. Then UA and DL can split up the spoils. Bye Bye CLT, IAH, CLE, MEM, CVG(I know, it's almost gone).
Seriously, the merger route with US is a mess, and a merger right now with DL would not be approved. Three legacy carriers are not too many, but if an AA/US combine are to succeed, their labor problems must be solved.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-05-12 11:31:00 and read 12122 times.

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 11):
[quote=rwy04LGA,reply=8]The AA workforce combined with the pro-union PMNW crowd....Delta would become a union airline. Yuck!

One thing you may fail to realize, it isn't just about you, it's about all of us. It will happen eventually, you know it
and DL knows it. It's just a matter of time.

Seems they've survived without unions (for the most part) for over 80 years........people have been saying "it's just a matter of time" since I hired on in '71 and I'm sure before that. See any unions on the property, yet?

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: usairways787
Posted 2012-05-12 12:37:45 and read 11514 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 15):

At the moment I've seen and heard things brewing. Also don't forget there are still a lot of NW people within the company, which adds fuel to the fire.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-05-12 12:46:50 and read 11436 times.

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 16):
Also don't forget there are still a lot of NW people within the company, which adds fuel to the fire.

Adding fuel to a fire that didn't need to be lit.  

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: chepos
Posted 2012-05-12 15:27:39 and read 10283 times.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 14):
AA can merge with US/HP, and that combined mess can then take a trip to Bankruptcy Court too. Then UA and DL can split up the spoils. Bye Bye CLT, IAH, CLE, MEM, CVG(I know, it's almost gone).
Seriously, the merger route with US is a mess, and a merger right now with DL would not be approved. Three legacy carriers are not too many, but if an AA/US combine are to succeed, their labor problems must be solved.

I dont know what you are drinking but at the moment both IAH and CLT are thriving hubs. IAH is not going anywere anytime soon under UA and neither is CLT for US. If AA were to be broken up as you predict I highly doubt UA would dump IAH.

Regards,

Chepos

[Edited 2012-05-12 15:29:50]

[Edited 2012-05-12 15:30:33]

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: toltommy
Posted 2012-05-12 18:50:46 and read 8982 times.

IMO its unlikely, but it certainly is an interesting what if. DOJ would almost certainly force some divestitures. My thoughts:

JFK - Sell T8 and a number of AA's peak hour slots. Maybe VX wants to buy it (they seem to be able to raise money endlessly. Perhaps give the Virgin-branded airlines a reason to form a formal alliance and transfer traffic over JFK? WN may also be interested to build up the caribbean network coming with FL. B6 may give them a run for their money though.

ORD - Not slot controlled, but gate space is the issue. DL would gladly give up a sizeable amount of gates in order to create a major focus city at ORD. They could focus on the top O&D markets and not worry about worry about connecting traffic to small midwestern markets. ORD would benefit from enabling new entrants into the market. However, a number of current AA spokes would lose service (think TOL), or give UA a monopoly (think CWA), driving up fares.

LAX - Sell off T4. Again, maybe VX wants it to build their natural alliance with other Virgin carriers.

DFW - Everything old is new again. DL winds up with the DFW hub they wanted 25 years ago. But does it come at SLC's expense?

Eagle - Merge whats left of Comair into it, give it a new contract full of performance bonuses and spin it off.

In all reality, a DL acquisition of parts of AA may do more to create competition. A US/AA will almost certainly inhibit it.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: rwy04LGA
Posted 2012-05-12 19:46:43 and read 8563 times.

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 11):
One thing you may fail to realize, it isn't just about you, it's about all of us.

...and all of 'us' isn't the union. Most of 'us' are the CURRENT majority that don't want a union. Were DL to acquire AA, the scale would tip to the union. It's about me and the rest of the majority (us) trying to keep Delta out of grief.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: JFKPurser
Posted 2012-05-12 22:17:39 and read 7765 times.

So many "experts" here who just do not know what they are talking about.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: ih8b6
Posted 2012-05-12 22:32:31 and read 7666 times.

Oh my gosh. Are we really going to start all this crap AGAIN! Gee whiz!

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 16):
At the moment I've seen and heard things brewing.

Sure you have.

That reminds me - one time I was standing on a ramp in a city in the mid 90s I worked in with 4 guys: 3 that had been around a long time, me with 6 years with the company, and a guy that was a new hire. No one new I had 6 years, they thought I was new hire because I had just transferred to the ramp and my "colors" made it look like I was new. I was handed a union card. The NEW HIRE said "yeah you better sign it. THEY just keep taking and taking stuff away from us". Ha! LOL, what a little joker idiot this kid was, he had no freaking idea what he was talking about. Poor kid. So yeah, I bet you've heard things brewing - in the same way this new hire had things taken away from him.

Quoting mayor (Reply 17):
Adding fuel to a fire that didn't need to be lit.

So very very true.  

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: EricR
Posted 2012-05-12 22:45:21 and read 7590 times.

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 13):

No they can't unless AA put routes up for sale. PA intentionally put their European markets up for sale. Unless AA does the same (which they won't), DL cannot buy them.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: BDL757
Posted 2012-05-12 23:02:57 and read 7495 times.

While I don't think anything between AA/DL is likely I just thought it was interesting that BA would consider teaming up with DL when US management has been quite vocal about their wanting a merger with AA...wouldn't BA want to team up with US?

Quoting chepos (Reply 1):
If DL makes a move for AA it would be to dismantle the carrier,
Quoting chepos (Reply 1):
the airline would definitely move everything from centreport to the ATL.

Actually, I don't think the carrier would be dismantled as the route networks in most cases are quite complimentary. When I read the original 'DL interested in AMR' thread I actually thought the American/AAdvantage names would stay.

Quoting chepos (Reply 1):
Yeah, I'm sure AA employees really want DL to take them over.

I'm sure no employee ever wants their airlline to be taken over, but alas people like me at the bottom of the food chain have no say in the matter!  

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: Max Q
Posted 2012-05-12 23:54:47 and read 7454 times.

I can't believe how many of you are counting AA out completely.


They may have stumbled, but they will be back, perhaps with a US merger.



But there won't be a fire sale.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: ghifty
Posted 2012-05-12 23:58:35 and read 7447 times.

They can finally bring back the Deltaflot iivery!

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: Beardown91737
Posted 2012-05-13 01:54:24 and read 7276 times.

The same government that let banks that were too big to fail combine into banks way to big to fail just might approve it. Delta was in DFW once, and would probably like to be back. US may not get hurt by this but could potentially stand to benefit if the government forced route divestiture. Places like CWA may not suffer either because DL could still serve them from MSP or DTW or both, or even from ORD.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 14):
Then UA and DL can split up the spoils. Bye Bye CLT, IAH,

UA could use CLT, DL would want back into DFW which would leave UA with IAH which they are favoring now anyway.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2012-05-13 04:27:54 and read 7115 times.

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 24):
While I don't think anything between AA/DL is likely I just thought it was interesting that BA would consider teaming up with DL when US management has been quite vocal about their wanting a merger with AA...wouldn't BA want to team up with US?

I believe BA was speaking hypothetically and would prefer to have a US partner than not have one. Given its strength in NYC, I believe DL would be a better partner for BA than AA if DL were part of oneworld, but the DL/AF/KL history is so long and varied that I do not see that coming to an end. However, DL obviously recognizes the value that LHR holds for its NYC passengers, and BA likely also sees the value of DL's domestic network from LGA/JFK, the Upper Midwest and the Southeast.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-05-13 15:21:49 and read 6450 times.

Quoting rwy04LGA (Reply 20):
...and all of 'us' isn't the union. Most of 'us' are the CURRENT majority that don't want a union. Were DL to acquire AA, the scale would tip to the union. It's about me and the rest of the majority (us) trying to keep Delta out of grief.

This is perhaps one thing I just don't understand of so many Delta employees. They treat "Delta" the corporation as a superior entity. Willing to do anything for the benefit of this entity at their own expense/peril.

It should be about making sure Delta turns a profit AND your quality of life getting better. There needs to be a balance.

Here is Delta making record profits and most employees still have a below average compensation package. Delta plays with the numbers to make the base pay look like it's average and the masses drink the kool-aid like there's no tomorrow.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-05-13 16:08:39 and read 6340 times.

You know, I really used to want DL+AA... I only saw it as a fantasy but really wanted it. As "cool" as it would be to see DL and AA get together, I honestly see it creating a mess that could potentially destroy DL. Maybe, just maybe DL could somehow yank a hub out of AA's (or US' hands) but I doubt that too. DL is big enough, UA is big enough too. Even AA+US might be overdoing this merger mania, but we'll see...

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: Flighty
Posted 2012-05-13 16:11:33 and read 6327 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 29):
It should be about making sure Delta turns a profit AND your quality of life getting better. There needs to be a balance.

Delta employees have an okay quality of life. I think your remark shows displeasure that people want the company to do well. That is ridiculous. Delta employees want to know their future is secure. People are sick of this airline bankruptcy era. They just want to see their team do well again. Employees are always paid at least their market wage, often much more. Free flights are also a nice perk. This doesn't mean people are happy; only that they are fairly paid. Not grateful and gushing tears of joy; fairly paid.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-05-13 16:25:16 and read 6253 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 31):
Delta employees have an okay quality of life.

An "okay" quality of life is probably a good description for most (not those with under 5-6 years with the company).

But is "okay" acceptable with the airline is having some of the most profitable quarters in it's history and the executive team is racking up millions as if they were going out of style?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 31):
I think your remark shows displeasure that people want the company to do well. That is ridiculous.

Not at all. Employees should want the company to do well, just not at their expense.

Would I as an employee rather have Delta make $2 billion per year and have an okay quality of life, or
Would I as an employee rather have Delta make $1.5 billion per year and have a good quality of life

I would hope most pick the 2nd choice.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 31):
They just want to see their team do well again.

Again. nothing wrong with that..unless it's at your own expense.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 31):
Employees are always paid at least their market wage, often much more.

What do you think a market wage for a new-hire cabin crew member is?

Most new hire Delta flight attendants are sent to New York City right out of training. What do you think a fair amount is?

$20,000 per year?
$25,000 per year?
$30,000 per year?
$35,000 per year?
$40,000 per year?

What's the required income for an "okay" quality of life in New York City?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 31):
Free flights are also a nice perk.

With load factors at an all time high and records expected again this summer most of the time this "free perk" turns into a massive headache. It's not what it once was.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 31):
This doesn't mean people are happy; only that they are fairly paid. Not grateful and gushing tears of joy; fairly paid.

Again. fairly paid. What is fairly paid considering the financial condition of Delta?

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: alitalia744
Posted 2012-05-13 18:00:37 and read 6056 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 32):
What's the required income for an "okay" quality of life in New York City?

Many industries start their entry-level employees off with a salary under $35,000/year in New York City.

It's doable. I did it.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: toltommy
Posted 2012-05-13 18:05:09 and read 6044 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 29):
Here is Delta making record profits and most employees still have a below average compensation package.

Source?

Since you claim that DL employees have a below average compensation package, you must know what the package is. Since you know what it is, please feel free to share it with us. Oh, and you must know what average is as well. Again, please feel free to share. Links would be appreciated. Thanks.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: YYZAMS
Posted 2012-05-13 20:05:59 and read 5733 times.

Having worked at Delta in DFW I think it would be great just to see Delta take over DFW or at least have a huge operation like it did in the 80s -2001. AA kind of pushed DL out but I bet DL would have the last laugh going taking over those cons on Amon Carter Blvd.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-05-13 20:27:52 and read 5655 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 29):
Here is Delta making record profits and most employees still have a below average compensation package. Delta plays with the numbers to make the base pay look like it's average and the masses drink the kool-aid like there's no tomorrow.

Well, that settles it.........I guess that YOU are smarter and know more than half the employees that work at DL. That's all I can get out of this statement.



(now, where is that damned sarcasm emoticon, anyway).

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2012-05-13 20:38:58 and read 5619 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
You know, I really used to want DL+AA... I only saw it as a fantasy but really wanted it. As "cool" as it would be to see DL and AA get together, I honestly see it creating a mess that could potentially destroy DL.

I completely fail to understand how anyone who's an aviation enthusiast could possibly be in favor of any of the mergers that have taken place or could potentially take place in the future. Do we honestly want to have two or three airlines in this country and the same colors, aircraft, services, etc? What I wouldn't give to have back the likes of TW, NW, HP (original), CO, PA, EA, BN, FL (soon-to-be gone) and many others. There used to be some much variety, so much choice. I understand that this is the way that business has been moving but for those of us in the industry and those who follow and enjoy it, it's preposterous that so many applaud these decisions. I wholeheartedly disagree with a DL/AA merger as well as an AA/US merger. I hope each company can survive and flourish as standalone carriers.

Jeremy

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-05-13 20:56:27 and read 5595 times.

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 33):
Many industries start their entry-level employees off with a salary under $35,000/year in New York City.

It's doable. I did it.

Starting wage for cabin crew working average hours (80 per month) is roughly $21,000 per year. I agree that $35,000 per year is doable in NYC but Delta cabin crew reaches that level after maybe 7-8 years. Starting pay for a 40 hour work week for customer service agents is similar.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 34):
Source?

That Delta is making record profits?
http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=19199248&itype=storyID

Monthly earnings for Delta cabin crew based on 85 hours per month at top pay:

Southwest = $5,893
Continental = $4,545
Alaska = $4,543
American = $4,013
UsAir = $3,910
United = $3,717
JetBlue = $3,552

-----------------------------------

Average = $4,310
Delta = $4,017 (this includes the 3% July increase)

The source for all these are the various bargaining agreements between the work groups and the airlines all of which (except JetBlue) can be found online.


If you want to add work rules and insurance benefits Delta literally falls off a cliff with some of the highest premiums, deductibles, and overall out of pocket expenses.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2012-05-14 06:16:08 and read 5212 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 38):

Sir, I work upwards of 70 hours week and bring in $3600/mo àvg after tax. If I were bringing in the same working 21.25 hours per week, I can still have a good quality of life. Just because some people cannot manage their finances on 4k a month doesn't mean we need a union to come in for higher wages because those people will still be broke at 9k per month.


Sancho

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-05-14 09:53:46 and read 4819 times.

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 39):
Sir, I work upwards of 70 hours week and bring in $3600/mo àvg after tax. If I were bringing in the same working 21.25 hours per week, I can still have a good quality of life. Just because some people cannot manage their finances on 4k a month doesn't mean we need a union to come in for higher wages because those people will still be broke at 9k per month.

Just because crew members get paid for 85 hours a month does not mean they worked 85 hours in a month. 85 hours per month for a crewmember is the equivalent of 40 hours per week for other regular jobs.

As I said above, cabin crew at Delta starts out at roughly $21,000 per year ($1,785 gross per month). That's quite a bit less than $3,600 net per month.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: rwy04LGA
Posted 2012-05-14 10:30:52 and read 4697 times.

For some   , the pay/travel benefits package at Delta is good enough. If it's not good enough for others, you'll find that transit authorities also have pay/travel benefits packages that lean more heavily to the 'pay' side. I believe there's a topic about that over on CityBuses.net

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-05-14 10:41:37 and read 4656 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 40):
As I said above, cabin crew at Delta starts out at roughly $21,000 per year ($1,785 gross per month). That's quite a bit less than $3,600 net per month.



And quite a bit more than unemployment.  

[Edited 2012-05-14 10:43:44]

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-05-14 10:44:52 and read 4628 times.

Quoting rwy04LGA (Reply 41):
For some   , the pay/travel benefits package at Delta is good enough.

Yes of course it's always good enough for some. Especially in this economy you'll easily find someone to do your job for less than what you do it for and Delta knows that.

As you see above however I pointed to record profits for Delta and below average compensation for employees, not about if it's "good enough" for some.

Just remember, you get what you pay for. The next time you're at JFK/LGA/ATL or wherever and the agent at the gate acts like he just doesn't give a $%*! well think of those travel benefits  Wow!

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: rwy04LGA
Posted 2012-05-14 11:03:21 and read 4562 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 43):
The next time you're at LGA and the agent at the gate acts like he just doesn't give a $%*! well think of those travel benefits

I do, all the time. However, all of my coworkers treat me nicely.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-05-14 11:05:00 and read 4570 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 43):

Just remember, you get what you pay for. The next time you're at JFK/LGA/ATL or wherever and the agent at the gate acts like he just doesn't give a $%*! well think of those travel benefits

I guess it's a generational thing. Back in my day, you did the best job that you could, no matter how much you were paid.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: goldenstate
Posted 2012-05-14 11:16:44 and read 4520 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 32):
Not at all. Employees should want the company to do well, just not at their expense.

Would I as an employee rather have Delta make $2 billion per year and have an okay quality of life, or
Would I as an employee rather have Delta make $1.5 billion per year and have a good quality of life

I would hope most pick the 2nd choice.

Everybody would pick the 2nd choice and nobody is suggesting they should not. In 2011, Delta paid out approximately $330M in profit sharing and rewards to the frontline. This was in a year--a "record" year, as you say--when DAL generated a 5.6% operating margin and 2.4% net corporate margin.

If DAL was generating consistent double digit net margins with employees at or near industry standard pay and no profit sharing program in place, you might have a point about them not getting their fair share. But that scenario isn't happening.

Quoting OOer (Reply 38):
Average = $4,310
Delta = $4,017 (this includes the 3% July increase)

"Average" depends on who you include in Delta's competitive set. Once Southwest/AirTran have a single contract, I think your list is pretty reasonable. But that hasn't happened yet.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: tommy767
Posted 2012-05-14 11:19:52 and read 4519 times.

It would be nice to see DL back at DFW. This situation would never happen though. Just wait until Dougie takes over AA.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-05-14 12:57:30 and read 4330 times.

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 46):
"Average" depends on who you include in Delta's competitive set. Once Southwest/AirTran have a single contract, I think your list is pretty reasonable. But that hasn't happened yet.

They already have a contract, all AirTran flight attendants will be covered by the Southwest contract. The transition process begins in a couple of weeks.

The airlines included in Delta's competitive set are the one Delta lists as being in their competitive set, so we're using their own criteria.

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 46):
Everybody would pick the 2nd choice and nobody is suggesting they should not. In 2011, Delta paid out approximately $330M in profit sharing and rewards to the frontline. This was in a year--a "record" year, as you say--when DAL generated a 5.6% operating margin and 2.4% net corporate margin.

For the average employee (excluding the pilots) this comes out to around $1,000 after taxes. The amount you received is all based on your income.

This year profit sharing came out to 4.85% of your annual eligible earnings for 2011. Based on $35,000 in a year it comes out to $1,697 pre-tax. Or around $1,000 post-tax.

Also, many other airlines pay out profit sharing so just as Delta employees get it...so do many other airline employees. This extra $1,000 still doesn't bring you up to industry average.

There's no way to spin these numbers. Delta offers below average compensation for all their non-union employees. Pilots on the other hand are near the top compared to other pilots in the industry, just as are the Delta executives.

Quoting rwy04LGA (Reply 44):
Quoting OOer (Reply 43):
The next time you're at LGA and the agent at the gate acts like he just doesn't give a $%*! well think of those travel benefits

I do, all the time. However, all of my coworkers treat me nicely.

Talk to other employees especially crewmembers who commute and ask them who they think the rudest agents are. I'm willing to be that many say it's their own coworkers that work the gates.

Quoting mayor (Reply 45):
I guess it's a generational thing. Back in my day, you did the best job that you could, no matter how much you were paid.

It's easy to play the "generation" card but the truth is that back in the day Delta offered employees above average compensation package and this generosity turned into positive attitudes and more productivity.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2012-05-14 13:30:44 and read 4197 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 42):

7.50 an hour is better than being jobless. Would you have been happy with that when you worked at Delta? You would have had a job, and thats the only thing that matters right? didn't think so. smh.

PS hows that pension? sure wish I had one.  

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: CoachClass
Posted 2012-05-14 13:46:59 and read 4150 times.

just like aa playing

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 35):
Having worked at Delta in DFW I think it would be great just to see Delta take over DFW or at least have a huge operation like it did in the 80s -2001. AA kind of pushed DL out but I bet DL would have the last laugh going taking over those cons on Amon Carter Blvd.

Reminiscent of what AA did to Braniff at DFW!

Deregulation was suppose to encourage competition, but in the airline industry all that we've seen is consolidation, less competition, loss of service in smaller communities, etc. I hope that the various federal agencies finally say enough is enough and refuse to let US or DL merge with AA.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2012-05-14 17:27:15 and read 3967 times.

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 50):

Yes they should force the airlines to operate at a loss.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2012-05-14 17:36:59 and read 3977 times.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 51):
Yes they should force the airlines to operate at a loss.

Totally agree. I hope the government comes to their senses and realizes that over a hundred thousand more jobless employees is what the economy really needs, not more consolidation.
 

UA and CO were allowed. DL and NW were allowed. In my mind, those precedents make it even more likely that AA+US would be approved with the proper divestitures at DCA and, moreso, LGA.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2012-05-14 17:51:17 and read 3932 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 52):

I think that if Delta/American wanted to merge they should let it happen. (and if that were to happen and US/UA wanted to get together then let them)

Airlines aren't here for the family to fly to MCO on a loss making ticket.

and with things going the way they are BK is going to be a revolving door. IMO much more consolidation is needed. Tickets should be paid for by the PAXs, not cutting employees, not screwing the shareholders, and not defaulting on loans and obligations. It is amazing to me that people and the government think that airlines should operate at a loss.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2012-05-14 18:16:46 and read 3862 times.

I guess the mods are on holiday. All this union regurgation is tiresome.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-05-14 18:36:02 and read 3814 times.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 54):
I guess the mods are on holiday. All this union regurgation is tiresome.

What's wrong? Can't dispute the facts?

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: goldenstate
Posted 2012-05-14 19:05:32 and read 3749 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 48):
They already have a contract, all AirTran flight attendants will be covered by the Southwest contract. The transition process begins in a couple of weeks.

The airlines included in Delta's competitive set are the one Delta lists as being in their competitive set, so we're using their own criteria.

To my understanding they don't fly under the Southwest contract until they complete merger training. So it will be awhile until most see any benefit from the merger. Last projection I saw was 350 flight attendants in 2012.

Your statement about Delta's competitive list is factually incorrect, and in any case, the last pay comparison was published on January 1. A lot has happened since then, and if your point is to say that a post-SWA/AAI snapshot looks comparatively less favorable to DL employees, then you are stating the obvious and I don't think anyone is trying to make a factual argument to the contrary.

Quoting OOer (Reply 48):
There's no way to spin these numbers. Delta offers below average compensation for all their non-union employees. Pilots on the other hand are near the top compared to other pilots in the industry, just as are the Delta executives.

I'm not the one trying to "spin" anything; you are making unsubstantiated claims about various groups unjustly enriching themselves at the expense of the nonunion Delta frontline. First it was the company and presumably its shareholders, now it's the pilots and executives. The interesting thing is you are reciting the same tired, repetitive ideological talking points that AA's unions have used to help drive their company into bankruptcy and severely damage its chances to emerge successfully.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2012-05-14 19:52:46 and read 3653 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 40):

OK, I started out making 24 cents a mile, i was taking home about $340 a week my first 6 months on the job before I got a raise to 30 cents a mile. I had bills just like everyone else. I adjusted my spending habits to match my means. Even at $2000 a month in income, you should still be able to make ends meat. Its an entry level position. Regions start far lower, but people progress. Quality of life is also in the eyes of the beholder. More money and more headaches dealing with the management/union relationship versus slightly less money and slightly less headaches might be more bearable to some but not all.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-05-14 20:22:27 and read 3569 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 48):
It's easy to play the "generation" card but the truth is that back in the day Delta offered employees above average compensation package and this generosity turned into positive attitudes and more productivity.

No, most of us "back in the day" had a positive attitude, when we started with DL........BTW, we NEVER got profit sharing "back in the day"........yes, we were paid well, but I can remember about 10 years in a row (just before I retired) when we didn't get a pay raise........but we understood why and most of us didn't bitch about it......we just kept doing the best job we could.

Quoting OOer (Reply 55):
Quoting cokepopper (Reply 54):
I guess the mods are on holiday. All this union regurgation is tiresome.

What's wrong? Can't dispute the facts?

No, all your crap is OFF TOPIC

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 49):
PS hows that pension? sure wish I had one.

You'd probably have to earn it, first. You've been with the company, now, how long?? 2-3 years? You're not even vested, yet. Spend a few more years, standing on the ramp in sub zero weather or boot deep in slush and then you can complain (or not, which would be an improvement).

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-05-14 20:52:35 and read 3511 times.

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 56):
To my understanding they don't fly under the Southwest contract until they complete merger training. So it will be awhile until most see any benefit from the merger. Last projection I saw was 350 flight attendants in 2012.

The integration begins next month. That's when the first classes begin. No need to negotiate any contract.

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 56):
Your statement about Delta's competitive list is factually incorrect, and in any case, the last pay comparison was published on January 1. A lot has happened since then, and if your point is to say that a post-SWA/AAI snapshot looks comparatively less favorable to DL employees, then you are stating the obvious and I don't think anyone is trying to make a factual argument to the contrary.

The list was from all of Delta's memo's which state who their competitive set is. In their pay comparison they purposely leave out Alaska Airlines who is included for everything else.

The comparison was published the day before United reached a tentative agreement with it's flight attendants (everyone know it was coming...), it excluded Alaska Airlines (why?), in failed to include the 4% scheduled raise AirTran received in May, and it was based on 75 hours per month (Delta knows JetBlue, Continental, and American all pay a premium after 70-75 hours per month) when the average is closer to 80-85 per month.

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 56):
First it was the company and presumably its shareholders, now it's the pilots and executives. The interesting thing is you are reciting the same tired, repetitive ideological talking points that AA's unions have used to help drive their company into bankruptcy and severely damage its chances to emerge successfully.

I don't blame the pilots for being wise and having collective bargaining rights in a society where EVERYTHING is based on written agreements also known as contracts. I also don't blame the executives for raking in millions when the company prospers. I blame the workers who don't realize that everyone is out to get their piece of the pie, they think that Delta really is a family...LOL!

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 57):
Even at $2000 a month in income, you should still be able to make ends meat.

Unless you're living at home with your parents it's VERY difficult to live off of $2,000 gross ($24,000 per year) in cities like Boston, New York, and Los Angeles.

Quoting mayor (Reply 58):
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 49):
PS hows that pension? sure wish I had one.

You'd probably have to earn it, first. You've been with the company, now, how long?? 2-3 years? You're not even vested, yet. Spend a few more years, standing on the ramp in sub zero weather or boot deep in slush and then you can complain (or not, which would be an improvement).

Interesting statement coming from the employee sitting at home retired with a pension check coming in every month. It's that "I got mine who cares about everyone else" attitude.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-05-14 21:48:34 and read 3424 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 59):
Interesting statement coming from the employee sitting at home retired with a pension check coming in every month. It's that "I got mine who cares about everyone else" attitude.

Yeah, and I EARNED every damn penny. I get a little tired of someone with 2-3 years complaining because they don't have a pension, when, more than likely, they aren't going to be with the company long enough to earn one. I get the attitude from the very junior people on here that those of us that had or have seniority or are retired don't need to be listened to or respected. But I guess that's reflective of our society, nowadays, as elders aren't very respected anymore, either.

Quoting OOer (Reply 59):
I blame the workers who don't realize that everyone is out to get their piece of the pie, they think that Delta really is a family...LOL!

How do you explain a majority of DL's workers not agreeing with you? Explain to me how those of us that don't agree are stupid and you're so damned smart.You've bitched about DL ever since I've seen you on here, which means that you've probably been complaining ever since you hired on.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-05-14 23:16:30 and read 3370 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 60):
Yeah, and I EARNED every damn penny. I get a little tired of someone with 2-3 years complaining because they don't have a pension, when, more than likely, they aren't going to be with the company long enough to earn one. I get the attitude from the very junior people on here that those of us that had or have seniority or are retired don't need to be listened to or respected. But I guess that's reflective of our society, nowadays, as elders aren't very respected anymore, either.

Your career at Delta consisted of wages 40% higher then they are now and a full pension.

So yes it's hard for some of us still at Delta to sit back and pretend all is well.

Quoting mayor (Reply 60):
How do you explain a majority of DL's workers not agreeing with you? Explain to me how those of us that don't agree are stupid and you're so damned smart.You've bitched about DL ever since I've seen you on here, which means that you've probably been complaining ever since you hired on.

The reason you don't agree with me is because you're retired and enjoy everything that has been taken away from us. Decent wages, decent healthcare, a pension etc...

It's not about being stupid or smart, it's about common sense. As employees we must adapt to current conditions, these conditions call on us to have a collective bargaining agreement. Everything in the business world and even in our own personal world is done with a contract these days. Since we can't individually bargain with our employer it leaves only one other option.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2012-05-15 04:10:07 and read 3222 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 60):
Yeah, and I EARNED every damn penny. I get a little tired of someone with 2-3 years complaining because they don't have a pension, when, more than likely, they aren't going to be with the company long enough to earn one.

So, basically, you expect people to stick around when they can barely make ends meet? What exactly did you do that others aren't doing now that earned you a pension? If you enjoy your pension, why wouldn't you want others to have one as well?

Quoting OOer (Reply 61):
As employees we must adapt to current conditions, these conditions call on us to have a collective bargaining agreement. Everything in the business world and even in our own personal world is done with a contract these days. Since we can't individually bargain with our employer it leaves only one other option.

  

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2012-05-15 04:31:40 and read 3189 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 61):
The reason you don't agree with me is because you're retired and enjoy everything that has been taken away from us. Decent wages, decent healthcare, a pension etc...

Seriously-give it a rest! It's completely OFF TOPIC.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-05-15 07:29:29 and read 3012 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 63):
Seriously-give it a rest! It's completely OFF TOPIC.

I agree. I hate getting in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.  

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2012-05-15 07:43:48 and read 2986 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 58):

You'd probably have to earn it, first. You've been with the company, now, how long?? 2-3 years? You're not even vested, yet. Spend a few more years, standing on the ramp in sub zero weather or boot deep in slush and then you can complain (or not, which would be an improvement).

No bull s**t I can complain now. You had an overall better QOL of life and a more than happy to tell the ones that are taking it in the shorts to shut up and be happy. How about they take your pension and give the employees two more weeks of Vacation? Sad thing is, I would be against that, but my guess is if the shoes are on the other foot you would be more than happy to do so. Sad really.

Quoting OOer (Reply 59):

Interesting statement coming from the employee sitting at home retired with a pension check coming in every month. It's that "I got mine who cares about everyone else" attitude.

very typical. Thats the facts around here. "well Delta is great, I have this, had this....yeah you wont get any of that, but you have a job, shut up. work, and be happy."

Quoting mayor (Reply 60):

Yeah, and I EARNED every damn penny. I get a little tired of someone with 2-3 years complaining because they don't have a pension, when, more than likely, they aren't going to be with the company long enough to earn one. I get the attitude from the very junior people on here that those of us that had or have seniority or are retired don't need to be listened to or respected. But I guess that's reflective of our society, nowadays, as elders aren't very respected anymore, either.

ha. wont be with the long enough to earn one. thats cute. So now you know my work habits?
No I do respect the retires, as a matter of fact I have one, that with out a pension, would likely be a mouth i would get to feed. My problem is you old folks telling us young bucks to shut up and be happy with delta that is NOTHING like it was when you were there. How many weeks of vacation did you have? How about health care? how is your health care now? How about work rules? how about outsourcing? yeah, none of that is even close to the same, but because "i have a job" i should be happy. So I will ask again, how happy would you be if they took your pension? how much would you love Delta then?

Quoting mayor (Reply 64):

pot kettle black.

At least he puts up a valid argument. You say you should have all this stuff but the new employees shouldn't. I'll bet you anything that i will work just as hard as you do over my career and will get to take ~40% less than you. Somehow thats fair to you. Typical I got mine that is wrong with this world. smh

[Edited 2012-05-15 07:44:39]

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-05-15 09:12:36 and read 2874 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 64):
Quoting delta2ual (Reply 63):
Seriously-give it a rest! It's completely OFF TOPIC.

I agree. I hate getting in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.  

You can really tell when you make a point that the other side can't refute.

The sad part is that I haven't been here "2-3 years" as someone else posted. I actually have a pension at Delta, that's frozen...which by the time I retire will earn me about $20 per month. Let's swap pensions and then have this debate. Deal?

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-05-15 09:18:05 and read 2864 times.

Btw: ALPA at Delta has just reached a Tentative Agreement with the company. This was done after 45 days of negotiations and 7 months before the amendable date of the contract.

I got a 2% pay increase in 2010, and getting a 3% increase in July of this year. I wonder what they're getting...

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-05-15 10:39:46 and read 2726 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 60):

Interesting statement coming from the employee sitting at home retired with a pension check coming in every month. It's that "I got mine who cares about everyone else" attitude.

That retired employee worked many long years to earn that pension. You have worked how long for Delta a company you stated in the past you would never work for.? Nowhere did he come close to expressing a " I got mine so who cares about everyone else.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-05-15 10:41:48 and read 2729 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 68):
That retired employee worked many long years to earn that pension. You have worked how long for Delta

So you're saying that if I work for Delta for as many years as Mayor did then I will also have a full pension?

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 68):
Nowhere did he come close to expressing a " I got mine so who cares about everyone else.

He didn't say it directly, but it's pretty clear from his posts.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-05-15 10:59:36 and read 2669 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 69):
He didn't say it directly, but it's pretty clear from his posts.

I guess it depends on WHICH kool-aid you've been drinking......the company's or the unions'

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2012-05-15 11:10:15 and read 2643 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 70):

I guess it depends on WHICH kool-aid you've been drinking......the company's or the unions'

what union? Who said anything about a union? Maybe some of us hope that Delta will be Delta of old and can give back what they took without a union. Why can't someone have something bad to say about where they are without being a "union lover"? What does everything have to be so black and white with you guys?

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: dtw9
Posted 2012-05-15 12:04:17 and read 2563 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 62):
Quoting mayor (Reply 60):Yeah, and I EARNED every damn penny. I get a little tired of someone with 2-3 years complaining because they don't have a pension, when, more than likely, they aren't going to be with the company long enough to earn one.So, basically, you expect people to stick around when they can barely make ends meet? What exactly did you do that others aren't doing now that earned you a pension? If you enjoy your pension, why wouldn't you want others to have one as well?


Is it Mayor's fault that he was fortunate enough to have worked at a time when many corporations had generous pension programs for their employees? Times have changed, and you need to get used to that fact. Try to find ANY company today that supplies their employees with a pension. He's probably enjoying his Social Security too. What are you going to do when the Federal Government tells you they can't supply you with that anymore either.Beleive me, Social Security is the next thing that's going to be changed. Young people today have to learn that the only one that is going to take care of them in their retirement years is going to be themselves. It's a sad fact that this country is in a race to the bottom and the gap between the haves and the have nots is only going to get wider. I learned many years ago that if I ever wanted to get ahead in life that I had to take chances and do it myself. If you're content with working for someone else, then you get what you get and be happy with it. If your not,then move on. Your income and security are only limited by your own hard work and determination.

Topic: RE: DL And AA? An Interesting Article
Username: srbmod
Posted 2012-05-15 14:23:17 and read 2463 times.

Since some of you as usual wish to hijack the discussion into issues that are OFF TOPIC with the thread, this thread is now locked since the amount of posts that are either off-topic or would have to be removed for housekeeping reasons would significantly gut the thread. This thread is regarding a potential AA-DL merger, NOT the current working conditions at Delta or any other airline.

Any posts that appear after this locking message will be deleted for housekeeping purposes.


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