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Topic: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-05-09 09:58:59 and read 27905 times.

American Airlines today finally confirmed its new long-haul product. The new coach and business class products previously confirmed for the 777-300ER fleet will also roll out on to the 777-200ER fleet starting next year. The 772s will no longer have a First Class cabin as part of the retrofit.

Roughly half the 767-300ER fleet will also get a new J product; as the other half will be retired as 787s are delivered. The seat has not been officially announced yet, but as the 777 seat can't fit properly in the 763, it is assured it will not be that.

Details were otherwise pretty scarce, though I am told there will be two 772 configurations, a low-density with more J seats for more premium markets and a high-density with more Y seats for vacation markets.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americ...ernational-widebody-155200548.html

And while this is also not confirmed, I had earlier heard the removal of 772's F cabin is a strong indication that the 789 fleet will indeed be getting an F cabin.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-05-09 10:03:53 and read 27887 times.

Mostly very smart movies, and not unexpected - sad to see the 777s losing F, but it makes sense given new realities. Interesting that they are only going to upgrade about half the 767 fleet - but again makes sense with 787s likely arriving soon. Unfortunate they still aren't going to put in-seat AVOD on the 767s - such a cheap way to go.

AA should have done this five years ago, but with this move, AA's longhaul premium offerings will now be generally quite competitive among U.S. carriers (at least from what I have seen/experienced).



[Edited 2012-05-09 10:05:58]

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: NYCAAer
Posted 2012-05-09 10:05:53 and read 27864 times.

Good news all around- hopefully we'll see the 772 in some markets currently flown with the 763, like DFW-CDG/MAD/FRA, MIA-MAD, JFK-CDG. This was a no-brainer- so few actually pay for F, it makes sense to offer an improved B/C. F/C was basically a combination of upgrades for a lucky few and an employee cafeteria at 37,000 feet.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-05-09 10:08:17 and read 27737 times.

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 2):
Good news all around- hopefully we'll see the 772 in some markets currently flown with the 763, like DFW-CDG/MAD/FRA, MIA-MAD, JFK-CDG. This was a no-brainer- so few actually pay for F, it makes sense to offer an improved B/C. F/C was basically a combination of upgrades for a lucky few and an employee cafeteria at 37,000 feet.

   Completely agree on all counts.

I suspect once the 777-300ERs, and then 787s, start to arrive, that is going to create a domino/chain reaction for reshuffling the rest of the longhaul fleet, with 777s starting to show up in plenty more high-density longhaul markets where the F cabin was simply too much. I definitely think CDG, MAD, possibly FRA, and possibly even FCO could all be candidates for a J/Y 777.

And yes - while it is sad to see F go on the 777s, it does make sense given the economic realities of the day, and besides, at least from the renderings, the new J looks almost as nice as the Flagship Suite anyway.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: erj170
Posted 2012-05-09 10:09:02 and read 27730 times.

I hope RDU-LHR goes 787....

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-05-09 10:13:17 and read 27636 times.

The rumored high-density 772 is perfect for markets like Italy, Spain and Rio de Janeiro, and even some medium-haul markets like Lima and Bogota. AA has needed this type of high-density plane for a while. It could also open up new doors for flying, especially in Miami-Europe.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: ghifty
Posted 2012-05-09 10:26:35 and read 27401 times.

The video uploaded by AA on this subject is interesting.

They refer to the 77W on order as "the NEW 777-300."

I find the "we're the only airline to offer personal Samsung Galaxy Tabs" bit to be annoying, as well. That might wow most of the general public, but it really just shows that they're too cheap to invest in a "true" in-seat IFE system.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: realsim
Posted 2012-05-09 10:27:38 and read 27412 times.

Here is the official press release: http://aa.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=3507

B767-300ER: 28J, 14Y+, 167Y (total = 209)
B777-200ER: up to 45J, up to 45Y+ and up to 170Y.

It says that all the seats in the 772 will be new, but nothing about the Y seats in the 763.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: Atlflyer
Posted 2012-05-09 10:32:08 and read 27291 times.

"The redesign is slated to begin in early 2014.  American is currently working to determine the installation timeline and will have more details on anticipated completion dates in the future."

2014? That seems a long time to wait...

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-05-09 10:45:37 and read 27168 times.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 6):
I find the "we're the only airline to offer personal Samsung Galaxy Tabs" bit to be annoying, as well. That might wow most of the general public, but it really just shows that they're too cheap to invest in a "true" in-seat IFE system.

If the tab has a "slot" of sorts that integrates it into the seat, then I don't have a problem with it because that's the best of both worlds right there. Otherwise, agreed.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: chepos
Posted 2012-05-09 10:51:24 and read 27068 times.

BK protection int this country is very interesting, on one hand we employees of airlines cost too much money and we are driving a company to the ground but on the other hand the company releases a statement saying they are spending billions on XYZ.

Regards,

Chepos

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-05-09 10:55:56 and read 27061 times.

My guess is that the 767 flat-bed seats will be the Thompson Vantage, considering all seats will have direct aisle access.

As for the 777 flat-bed seats, I know they will be the Cirrus model, but does anyone know if they will be the Sicma version (as on CX and US) or the Weber version (as on DL)? I think it would make sense to go with the Weber version since Sicma mostly caters to customers outside the United States, plus the Y seats will be Weber 5751s. When US ordered their Cirrus seats, the Weber version wasn't available yet.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2012-05-09 10:56:06 and read 27055 times.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 6):
I find the "we're the only airline to offer personal Samsung Galaxy Tabs" bit to be annoying, as well. That might wow most of the general public, but it really just shows that they're too cheap to invest in a "true" in-seat IFE system.

I disagree. Tablets are the future. More personalized. Less weight. Quick to implement. Wired infrastructure for entertainment is on the way out. WiFi and personal entertainment devices are in.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-05-09 11:05:20 and read 26957 times.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 12):
I disagree. Tablets are the future. More personalized. Less weight. Quick to implement. Wired infrastructure for entertainment is on the way out. WiFi and personal entertainment devices are in.

And I would disagree with you; many people don't want the hassle of unpacking and having their tablet or laptop taking up space. Plus, the battery life isn't the same for all tablets/laptops. Only about 1 out of 10 people in the United States own tablet computers, and unless airlines give huge incentives for everyone to buy tablets, I don't see in-seat IFE systems going away.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: runway23
Posted 2012-05-09 11:08:04 and read 26870 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Details were otherwise pretty scarce, though I am told there will be two 772 configurations, a low-density with more J seats for more premium markets and a high-density with more Y seats for vacation markets.

I'm told only one 772 configuration. The up to 45 J seats is because the seat plan still has to be finalized and the exact number will be around that figure.

763 will be as announced.

787s will be in a 3 class configuration.

[Edited 2012-05-09 11:08:34]

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: runway23
Posted 2012-05-09 11:13:16 and read 26834 times.

Quoting chepos (Reply 10):
BK protection int this country is very interesting, on one hand we employees of airlines cost too much money and we are driving a company to the ground but on the other hand the company releases a statement saying they are spending billions on XYZ.

A good product drives revenue, especially in premium cabins. AA cannot afford to have a product that is vastly sub-par to its joint-venture and oneworld partners. The plus side is, AA will once again be infront of its peers product wise on its widebody fleet. It is quite refreshing to see AA give importance to this again, as it had been swept aside for the past few years.

Obviously, if this didn't hold true, you would see airlines installing wooden benches throughout their fleets.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-05-09 11:15:11 and read 26834 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
And I would disagree with you; many people don't want the hassle of unpacking and having their tablet or laptop taking up space. Plus, the battery life isn't the same for all tablets/laptops. Only about 1 out of 10 people in the United States own tablet computers, and unless airlines give huge incentives for everyone to buy tablets, I don't see in-seat IFE systems going away.

One thing a tablet can't replace: the functionality of the moving map systems 

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: AF086
Posted 2012-05-09 11:15:20 and read 26833 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
The rumored high-density 772 is perfect for markets like Italy, Spain and Rio de Janeiro

Let's see is AA finAAly uses the 772 on the MIA-GIG routing.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: rotating14
Posted 2012-05-09 11:22:21 and read 26629 times.

Pardon my ignorance but was there a firming up of the 787's that I apparently missed?? Did they go with -8's or -9's??

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: rdh3e
Posted 2012-05-09 11:25:00 and read 26590 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 16):
One thing a tablet can't replace: the functionality of the moving map systems 

Why not? If the airlines are putting WiFi systems on the plane, that could probably be very easily incorporated as a featured "channel" or something.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: BDL757
Posted 2012-05-09 11:31:22 and read 26496 times.

I was just reading an article on this! Overall it sounds like a good idea to refresh the cabins and remove some FC for routes that don't demand an FC product. Business class these days is very close to first anyway! I also think the 3-3-3 configuration on the 777s in economy is better. I have a family member who is an AA F/A and I hope this is a sign of more prosperous and stable times at AA for her and all the other employees.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-05-09 11:31:35 and read 26495 times.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 15):
The plus side is, AA will once again be infront of its peers product wise on its widebody fleet.

Exactly which part of the new J would be "in front of peers" ? Even US's Envoy on 330s got flatbed before AA. Both DL and UA are more than 50% (my guess is closer to 75%) completed with their flat-bed conversion, while AA is still waiting for the first one to roll off.

DL has both outward and reverse herringbone in their fleet IIRC, so 1-2-1 every-seat-aisle-access is not AA unique either.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: quiet1
Posted 2012-05-09 11:43:09 and read 26365 times.

Is there confirmation of the Y-class configuration on the 777's? Is it 9-abreast -- 3-3-3 or 2-5-2 -- or 10-abreast ?

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-05-09 11:51:23 and read 26270 times.

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 22):

Is there confirmation of the Y-class configuration on the 777's? Is it 9-abreast -- 3-3-3 or 2-5-2 -- or 10-abreast ?

The official pictures on facebook look like a very good chance of 3-4-3, but certain posters here insist there's still a shred of hope as long as the plane hasn't left PAE.

Confirmation? None officially. 9-abreast? Definitely not holding my breath.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: klkla
Posted 2012-05-09 11:57:42 and read 26182 times.

This is a smart move for the 777. The seating product will be very similar to the seats used by USAir in their A330 which will help create some product continuity once they take over (I mean 'if' they take over).

I'm guessing they will be using a seat similar to Delta's for the 767. It's too bad they're following their old bad habits and going on the cheap with tablets instead of real IFE (especially in business).

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: greggariouspdx
Posted 2012-05-09 12:05:52 and read 26834 times.

I'm sad to see the Flagship Suites go away on the 772. I just flew one from JFK-EZE and loved the privacy and direct aisle access. I hope they use the 77W on the long routes like DFW-NRT/EZE, JFK-HND/EZE. Looking forward to the new J class on the 763 - they are in need of an update.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2012-05-09 12:11:21 and read 26848 times.

Quoting klkla (Reply 24):
This is a smart move for the 777. The seating product will be very similar to the seats used by USAir in their A330 which will help create some product continuity once they take over (I mean 'if' they take over).

A BMW is not similar to a Chevy... AA opted for the BMW version of the Cirrus Seat.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2012-05-09 12:22:14 and read 27103 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
And I would disagree with you; many people don't want the hassle of unpacking and having their tablet or laptop taking up space. Plus, the battery life isn't the same for all tablets/laptops. Only about 1 out of 10 people in the United States own tablet computers, and unless airlines give huge incentives for everyone to buy tablets, I don't see in-seat IFE systems going away.

The tablets will be handed out by the airlines. A basic inexpensive tablet loaded with movies, games and other apps would be a lot more effecient than a fully wired infrastructure. If they can sling drinks and food, they can distribute tablets. Forward thinking.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: aacun
Posted 2012-05-09 12:27:24 and read 26980 times.

Well, if we add the number of seats they are saying it could go up to in MC, I would think it will be 10 across. Its going from 194 in coach to up to 45 Y+ and up to 170 Y seats thats 215. Its not looking good for 9 across in Y I'd say. The key here is "up to", that doesn't help at all.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: qqflyboy
Posted 2012-05-09 13:11:34 and read 26640 times.

Quoting aacun (Reply 28):
Its going from 194 in coach to up to 45 Y+ and up to 170 Y seats thats 215. Its not looking good for 9 across in Y I'd say. The key here is "up to", that doesn't help at all.

But remember no first class, so a fair amount of those business class seats will be between 1 L/R and 2 L/R, allowing more room for additional Y+/Y seats.

[Edited 2012-05-09 13:12:39]

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: tonytifao
Posted 2012-05-09 13:49:20 and read 25563 times.

Also...

"Plus, our entire fleet of 777-200ERs and 777-300ERs will have inflight Wi-Fi so you can stay connected on your international trip"

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-05-09 14:09:17 and read 25005 times.

Quoting aacun (Reply 28):

Well, if we add the number of seats they are saying it could go up to in MC, I would think it will be 10 across. Its going from 194 in coach to up to 45 Y+ and up to 170 Y seats thats 215. Its not looking good for 9 across in Y I'd say. The key here is "up to", that doesn't help at all.

You are forgetting the deletion of F. That is a monster space eater for only 16 seats. It can easily fit five, maybe six, rows of J, so that's at least 30 J seats before we even get to the current J cabin.

That said, absolutely I'm sure AA is considering 10 abreast. It would be stupid not too.

Also, the 772 and 77W seats will be similar, but not identical, with the 772 getting a "better" seat, likely an updated version of the 77W seat, possible since there is more lead-in time and there is no F cabin.

[Edited 2012-05-09 14:17:15]

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: ual777uk
Posted 2012-05-09 14:09:17 and read 24902 times.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 18):

Yeah, I would like to know the answer o that one as well.

I assume the 77W will completely replace the 772 on the JFK - LHR route?

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: DAL763ER
Posted 2012-05-09 14:14:05 and read 24759 times.

They could add a donation box at each door so people who enjoyed their flights can help them get out of bankruptcy faster   

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: 777ord
Posted 2012-05-09 14:16:07 and read 24633 times.

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 2):

LOL. So true. It was mostly the only way to ever get back to base after a long international trip! I found it most bizarre that one could literally check in at 3hours with a D2 and get an F seat for the ORD-LGA shuttles. Or, even F on the 777 ORD-DFW repo'.

Im glad to see AA reworking their operation with such force! If only they could have done this years ago..... sigh....

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-05-09 14:18:04 and read 24586 times.

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 33):
They could add a donation box at each door so people who enjoyed their flights can help them get out of bankruptcy faster

Kind of like the donation box that NK is adding to show your thanks for being allowed to bring your carry-on luggage on board.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: brons2
Posted 2012-05-09 14:31:34 and read 24232 times.

I think the tablets present a lot of problems of their own.

How are they going to make sure that the tablets don't depart the plane? How will they charge the tablets? Where will they be kept when not in use? Who's going to troubleshoot the inevitable problems when people can't get on WiFi, or the battery is not charged when they're handed out. How will they make sure that people don't install undesirable apps from the Android Market, (err sorry Google Play Store as they're calling it now),

I would say a.nutters are pretty technically sophisticated in general, but the general flying public? Not so much.

There's something to be said for hardwired infrastructure that doesn't need to be charged. It's a little different in airplanes due to the weight, but still. This business model of doing IFE with WiFi tablets will require far more tinkering than a built-in IFE system.

I guess we'll see how well it works out in practice.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-05-09 14:53:05 and read 23726 times.

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 2):
Good news all around- hopefully we'll see the 772 in some markets currently flown with the 763,

That's almost certain. And AA probably does need such a plane for some leisure heavy European routes as well as some of the South American and Caribbean routes formerly flown by the A300.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 6):
I find the "we're the only airline to offer personal Samsung Galaxy Tabs" bit to be annoying, as well. That might wow most of the general public, but it really just shows that they're too cheap to invest in a "true" in-seat IFE system.

Actually, just the opposite. AA is ahead of the curve on IFE. The future is onboard wi-fi and everyone brings their own device. Even the best AVOD systems might have maybe a hundred movies and some TV shows, but with wi-fi, you can watch whatever you want. And then the plane no longer needs the weight and maintenance headaches of being wired up for IFE. Offering tablets to passengers is a logical intermediate step.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2012-05-09 14:56:35 and read 23663 times.

Long overdue!!!! Something VERY positive from AA!!! BrAAvo!!!!  

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-05-09 15:06:22 and read 23443 times.

Quoting brons2 (Reply 36):
How are they going to make sure that the tablets don't depart the plane? How will they charge the tablets? Where will they be kept when not in use? Who's going to troubleshoot the inevitable problems when people can't get on WiFi, or the battery is not charged when they're handed out. How will they make sure that people don't install undesirable apps from the Android Market, (err sorry Google Play Store as they're calling it now),

These are not new problems. AA has been handing out some form of IFE since the mid-1990s, when they used some sort of ancient tape system. Then it switched to portable DVD players, then Archos hard-drive units and now Samsung tablets.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-05-09 15:13:17 and read 23233 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 39):
These are not new problems. AA has been handing out some form of IFE since the mid-1990s, when they used some sort of ancient tape system. Then it switched to portable DVD players, then Archos hard-drive units and now Samsung tablets.

But this is just for the Business cabin. The problem would increase greatly if you expand it to include enough units for every seat on the aircraft. I don't know if the relay panel could take it.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2012-05-09 15:13:57 and read 23233 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 39):

Delta is doing the sasme thing for the remodeled 747 flights to Asia. IIRC.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: Carfield
Posted 2012-05-09 15:16:37 and read 23162 times.

I am sad to see the lost of Flagship suites on the 772 but at the same time, AA is replacing these awful sliding business class seats with a very good Cirrus Business class seats. I think that is acceptable especially I rarely pay for AA F and when I fly AA F, I often used my VIPOW to upgrade to F.

In terms of catering, AA two-class premium business service is similar to AA first class anyway... the sundae cart is still here and that does not matter much. But I hope this refreshing also means new menu items and more importantly, please change your menus more frequently. I don't think I am asking AA too much to come up with new menu every three to four months, and the pre-arrival meals need a major revamp. Those pizzas are not good and salads are too fatty and sweet. BBQ Chicken salad looks sad with those sickening red sauce.

I like the business class bar area.

Good to see AA finally catching up with the rest of the US major airlines.

Carfield

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-05-09 15:24:01 and read 23023 times.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 41):
Delta is doing the sasme thing for the remodeled 747 flights to Asia. IIRC.

No, DL's remodeled 747s have built-in AVOD in both J and Y.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: Concordski
Posted 2012-05-09 15:29:40 and read 22955 times.

All I can say from this announcement is that I'm going to be using my United card a lot more as well as flying them more too. I fly AA (as an elite too) since they offer much better in advance premium seating (first or business specifically to NRT). However I imagine that with (up to 45 J) that they are going to severely restrict availability for redemption. Unless UA reacts in a similar fashion, I'd rather fly them as they at least 90% have availability in premium 2-4 days before departure. Too bad I can't match UA to AA like AA did for UA.  

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-05-09 15:39:13 and read 22653 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
Also, the 772 and 77W seats will be similar, but not identical, with the 772 getting a "better" seat, likely an updated version of the 77W seat, possible since there is more lead-in time and there is no F cabin.

What will be the configs for the 787 and 77W?

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-05-09 15:46:24 and read 22590 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 45):
What will be the configs for the 787 and 77W?

Far too early to tell on the 787, but it is expected to get an F cabin.

The 77W is rumored to be 8F/50J/30Y+/220Y, but that assumes AA goes with 10-abreast in Y, and no decision has been made (though it's somewhat safe to assume it will be at least 8F/50J/30Y+).

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: ghifty
Posted 2012-05-09 15:55:18 and read 22319 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
If the tab has a "slot" of sorts that integrates it into the seat, then I don't have a problem with it because that's the best of both worlds right there. Otherwise, agreed.

Yes, a slot would be nice.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 12):
I disagree. Tablets are the future. More personalized. Less weight. Quick to implement. Wired infrastructure for entertainment is on the way out. WiFi and personal entertainment devices are in.

I agree they're more personalized. At home anyways. I don't see the need for personalisation in flight. "Look, I can change my background?" "Look, I changed my notification sounds?" Personalization works at home, but is entirely pointless on an airplane, or any mode of "public" transportation.

Until tablets are more integrated with the hard product, I will aptly be against them. The trip reports on here with DigEX players sitting on the tray tables with headphone jacks sprawled everywhere are not very appealing, and do not do a good job of representing such airline's brand images. Tablets, in their present form, seem random and add clutter. Not to mention the job of keeping them maintained/working. Children will scratch them up, drop them, spill stuff on them, etc.

Like MAH4546 said, a mounting system would be ideal.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
The future is onboard wi-fi and everyone brings their own device. Even the best AVOD systems might have maybe a hundred movies and some TV shows, but with wi-fi, you can watch whatever you want. And then the plane no longer needs the weight and maintenance headaches of being wired up for IFE. Offering tablets to passengers is a logical intermediate step.

I didn't say anything about Wi-Fi. Wi-Fi is huge. It's impossible to argue against it. It doesn't require any extra effort from the passengers or the crew to use, it's just... there. A tablet is different. FIrst of all, the elimination of maintenance and needing to be "wired" won't happen. These tablets aren't bricks that can survive constant beating, much like the IFE. Additionally, they need to be charged... and catalogued... and distributed... and collected... and troubleshooted. They might cut costs, but they'll just be a headache.

Anyways, if most people (or "everyone") bring their own device what's the point in giving out tablets? Just give free Wi-Fi. The only reason I'm poking away on my IFE on a Delta flight isn't because I don't have a tablet, or laptop, or iPod, or mobile phone... it's because I, like a decent amount of people, don't have access to X amount of movies. Wi-Fi or not, I won't be streaming movies/shows.. but IFE gives me that ability. For free. Generally.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-05-09 16:09:36 and read 22081 times.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 47):
I don't see the need for personalisation in flight.

You've got to be kidding. You're on a plane with wi-fi and you have your tablet or computer, your work, your movies, your music, your games, etc. It's all your stuff. What's better than that?

Quoting ghifty (Reply 47):
Children will scratch them up, drop them, spill stuff on them, etc.

The airlines providing such things will be temporary. Before too long everyone will just bring their own.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 47):
These tablets aren't bricks that can survive constant beating, much like the IFE. Additionally, they need to be charged... and catalogued... and distributed... and collected... and troubleshooted. They might cut costs, but they'll just be a headache.

But far less of a headache than screens wired into seats.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 47):
Anyways, if most people (or "everyone") bring their own device what's the point in giving out tablets?

There isn't any. That's just the bridge. The future of IFE is having in flight internet and bringing your own device. Really, IFE will stop being IFE and just be the things we all use anyway.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 47):
Just give free Wi-Fi

That's exactly where all of this is going. There is no reason for the airline to provide a screen, hardwired or otherwise.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: MIASkies
Posted 2012-05-09 16:20:04 and read 21781 times.

So are MIA-LHR/GRU/EZE going 773 or 789?

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: Byrdluvs747
Posted 2012-05-09 16:23:35 and read 21738 times.

Can anyone speak to whether AA will finally add the external camera views as part of the IFE like EK and others?

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: Atlflyer
Posted 2012-05-09 16:29:28 and read 21670 times.

Looks like 9-abreast to me in Y...

45 seats is 5 rows of 9 In Y+ and it's not likely they'd have 10 across in the entire Y cabin so it doesn't matter that 170 is divisible by 10.

Also compare the configuration of Delta's 777s. They fit 43 Business class seats and 230 Y seats. 15 more than what AA is proposing.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: alitalia744
Posted 2012-05-09 16:43:12 and read 21308 times.

Welcome to 2012 AA!

Now fix your employee problems, your brand issues, and maybe the AAttitude and you'll be ok.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: aacun
Posted 2012-05-09 17:01:24 and read 21024 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):

I didnt forget about FC. I work the airplane every week. But BC is going from 7 across to 4 across, so lets say You can probably fit 24-28 seats in the current BC space, so if you are going to go up to 45 seats and then add on top of that a stand up bar in BC, not only will they probably have to use the space currently occupied by FC but go into what is now the coach section aft of BC.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: IndustryInsider
Posted 2012-05-09 17:46:35 and read 20367 times.

Quoting brons2 (Reply 36):
How are they going to make sure that the tablets don't depart the plane? How will they charge the tablets? Where will they be kept when not in use? Who's going to troubleshoot the inevitable problems when people can't get on WiFi, or the battery is not charged when they're handed out. How will they make sure that people don't install undesirable apps from the Android Market, (err sorry Google Play Store as they're calling it now),

I used one of these tablets down from DFW to SCL a few weeks ago. I like them a whole hell of a lot better than the previous Fijitsu laptops which were used on the 763, that is for sure. The tablets and Bose headphones are distributed together shortly after take off and collected shortly before landing. To power them, they simply plug into the existing power port which is located in the seat shell in front of you. Each tablet comes with a sleeve which allows the unit to stand on its own or you can simply hold it. I loved it to be honest. Most of the time I simply held it in the position that was most comfortable for me depending on seating position.

These tablets already come configured with AA software specs meaning it doesn't function like a normal Galaxy Tab. You cannot access any of the units settings nor can you access the Google Play Store. You can only access what AA wants you to access (movies, audio etc) and nothing else.

Creating an in seat IFE is a lot more expensive and is a lot harder to certify for an airline. Just think about the extra weight all the wires add to boot. Additionally, what happens when the unit is outdated in 5-10 years? Down the road, an in seat IFE is just plain more expensive than the current route. If you only knew what an airline has to go through to get parts, designs and vendors approved and certified, you would be shocked. There is always a long lead time because of this and is why projects of this scale (777-200) take such a long time to complete.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: sxf24
Posted 2012-05-09 19:24:38 and read 19049 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 46):
The 77W is rumored to be 8F/50J/30Y+/220Y, but that assumes AA goes with 10-abreast in Y, and no decision has been made (though it's somewhat safe to assume it will be at least 8F/50J/30Y+).

Stop saying no decision has been made.

Lead time for seats is at least 12 months, and since the first delivery is later this year, the seats have been contracted for and are in the process of being built.

Every single document I've seen indicates the 77Ws will be delivered 10 abreast in Y.

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 51):
45 seats is 5 rows of 9 In Y+ and it's not likely they'd have 10 across in the entire Y cabin so it doesn't matter that 170 is divisible by 10.

Main Cabin Extra is at 9 abreast, while Main Cabin is 10.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2012-05-09 21:17:35 and read 17578 times.

Quoting erj170 (Reply 4):

Given the nature of the route (long and thin), I wouldn't be surprised if this happens, particularly during periods of lower demand (e.g. non-summer). Of course, it depends on if AA orders enough 787s to warrant putting one on a route that neither originates nor terminates at a hub.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: chopchop767
Posted 2012-05-10 03:45:52 and read 14290 times.

Quoting IndustryInsider (Reply 54):
Creating an in seat IFE is a lot more expensive and is a lot harder to certify for an airline. Just think about the extra weight all the wires add to boot. Additionally, what happens when the unit is outdated in 5-10 years? Down the road, an in seat IFE is just plain more expensive than the current route. If you only knew what an airline has to go through to get parts, designs and vendors approved and certified, you would be shocked. There is always a long lead time because of this and is why projects of this scale (777-200) take such a long time to complete.

The seat has a charger out-let, so battery life isn't an issue. Couldn't agree more with the implementation of the tablets as Industry states: Airlines can respond to new technology faster. Any one who disagrees should take a ride from MUC to IAD on one of UA's original 777 cabin interiors in J. Unfortunately, on that route, it's hit or miss for new J, which is actually really comfortable. The old seats, however, are very uncomfortable, the screen is tiny and cabin is surely showing her age. Before long-haul trips, I've taken to renting movies on iTunes for this very reason.

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 2):
F/C was basically a combination of upgrades for a lucky few and an employee cafeteria at 37,000 feet.

HA-HA! YES! I've been on MUC/FRA to IAD on UA and on several occasions, the entire F cabin was employees. Still, surprised to see the First Class on AA go away on the 200ER; surely there are routes where it is needed, or did I miss something on the press release?

Overall, glad to see AA investing in right-sizing their equipment.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: AAplat4life
Posted 2012-05-10 05:05:40 and read 13319 times.

I would think that Tokyo and London routes would need F, and that is a pretty good chunk of the AA 772ER fleet right there.

I thought that AA recently announced upgrades to its 772 premium service. Perhaps I'm mistaken, or probably AA realized that those upgrades were not going to make it in the market place. Overall, this sounds like a good move for AA. However, to continue F on the 773ERs does not make a lot of sense for a fleet that will consist of 6 aircraft. AA may add a few more, but still it will not be a big fleet.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-05-10 05:22:05 and read 13081 times.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 58):
I would think that Tokyo and London routes would need F, and that is a pretty good chunk of the AA 772ER fleet right there.

I suspect you'll see F on a few LHR flights, but most will just move to the expanded, upgraded J product. If there is still latent F demand in particular LHR-U.S. markets that AA cannot serve with its own metal, it can put those people onto the BA JV/ATI flights.

I fully expect those outstanding 772 orders to be converted to 77Ws, which, if my math serves me correctly, would yield a 77W fleet of 16 aircraft.

I could see those 16 F-configured 77W aircraft being configured thus:

DFW-GRU (1.5, tied to DFW-NRT)
DFW-HKG (2)
DFW-LHR (1, flight 50/51, leaving 78/79 as a JY 772)
DFW-NRT (1.5, tied to DFW-GRU)
JFK-LHR (1, only 100/101, leaving the rest as JY 772s)
MIA-EZE (2, only 943/900, leaving 909/908 as a JY 772)
MIA-JNB (2)
MIA-LHR (1, winter seasonal)
ORD-LHR (1, summer seasonal, leaving the rest as JY 772s)
ORD-NRT (2)

... plus 1 operational spare.

Everything else that now sees a 777 could keep it, albeit sans F, plus I could see the 777s displaced from operating some of the above existing routes being used in some other international markets like MIA-GIG, DFW-CDG, JFK-CDG, MIA-MAD, etc., and possibly even opening up some new markets like DFW-ICN and in some parallel universe even JFK-TLV.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: LY777
Posted 2012-05-10 05:51:07 and read 12558 times.

So, the 763s will keep the same awful Y class?!

BTW, once the 787s are delivered, do you believe AA will use them on the MIA-CDG route?

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-05-10 06:42:17 and read 11898 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 59):
DFW-GRU (1.5, tied to DFW-NRT)
DFW-HKG (2)
DFW-LHR (1, flight 50/51, leaving 78/79 as a JY 772)
DFW-NRT (1.5, tied to DFW-GRU)
JFK-LHR (1, only 100/101, leaving the rest as JY 772s)
MIA-EZE (2, only 943/900, leaving 909/908 as a JY 772)
MIA-JNB (2)
MIA-LHR (1, winter seasonal)
ORD-LHR (1, summer seasonal, leaving the rest as JY 772s)
ORD-NRT (2)

MIA-GRU doesn't deserve F ?

ORD-LHR/NRT deserves F but not LAX-LHR/NRT ?

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: chopchop767
Posted 2012-05-10 06:46:45 and read 11839 times.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 58):
However, to continue F on the 773ERs does not make a lot of sense for a fleet that will consist of 6 aircraft. AA may add a few more, but still it will not be a big fleet.

The NYT had an interesting, albeit a little dated, glimpse of the revenue generated by First and Business Class cabins:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...eats-and-revenue.html?ref=business

In the examples they used, while AF's F and J only account for 21% of the seats, they calculated that it generated 63% of the revenue. Of course, that's assuming that these flights had PAYING customers in those cabins as opposed to upgrades. My suspicion would be that AA's upgrade policy tends to bring these numbers down a bit. But, keeping a small fleet with F to LHR or NRT might make $ sense for them, as opposed to all of their 777s.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: laca773
Posted 2012-05-10 09:15:06 and read 10083 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 59):

I could see those 16 F-configured 77W aircraft being configured thus:

DFW-GRU (1.5, tied to DFW-NRT)
DFW-HKG (2)
DFW-LHR (1, flight 50/51, leaving 78/79 as a JY 772)
DFW-NRT (1.5, tied to DFW-GRU)
JFK-LHR (1, only 100/101, leaving the rest as JY 772s)
MIA-EZE (2, only 943/900, leaving 909/908 as a JY 772)
MIA-JNB (2)
MIA-LHR (1, winter seasonal)
ORD-LHR (1, summer seasonal, leaving the rest as JY 772s)
ORD-NRT (2)

... plus 1 operational spare.

Commavia,

Missing from your list is:
LAX-NRT
LAX-LHR.
I think both of these routes could easily be flown with 77W, though perhaps you're thinking the BA JV is better off handling the P cabin.
JL generally flies LAX-NRT with a 77E and not the 77W. If AA has the demand in this market for paid P class, then this should be a given market for 77W.

Quoting chopchop767 (Reply 62):
In the examples they used, while AF's F and J only account for 21% of the seats, they calculated that it generated 63% of the revenue. Of course, that's assuming that these flights had PAYING customers in those cabins as opposed to upgrades. My suspicion would be that AA's upgrade policy tends to bring these numbers down a bit. But, keeping a small fleet with F to LHR or NRT might make $ sense for them, as opposed to all of their 777s.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't AF like the rest of the EU carriers in the that, they don't hand out upgrades. They have to be paid for if one wants to upgrade from W to J and J to P?

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-05-10 09:23:33 and read 9976 times.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 63):
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't AF like the rest of the EU carriers in the that, they don't hand out upgrades. They have to be paid for if one wants to upgrade from W to J and J to P?

Can't speak for AF or SQ, but I know someone who's top tier at BA (the tier that qualifies Concorde Room), and they frequently hand him free upgrade to F even though he's booked in J.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-05-10 09:36:16 and read 9742 times.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 63):
Commavia,

Missing from your list is:
LAX-NRT
LAX-LHR.
I think both of these routes could easily be flown with 77W, though perhaps you're thinking the BA JV is better off handling the P cabin.
JL generally flies LAX-NRT with a 77E and not the 77W. If AA has the demand in this market for paid P class, then this should be a given market for 77W.

They aren't "missing" from my predictions - I intentionally omitted them. I may well be wrong, but by my estimation, if AA does - indeed - intend to grow post-bankruptcy, including using their 77Ws to expand their international presence, then AA has higher priorities for their very scarce F-configured jets than LAX-NRT and LAX-LHR, both of which are markets where any F demand that exists can be handled by partners with arguable as-good or better F products to begin with.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-05-10 09:52:08 and read 9515 times.

First question is what is AA's plans for service to LHR? The vast majority of flights are with 3-class 772s. BA has 3-classes on its U.S-LHR flights (777 or 747). Is this a sign that the 772 departures to LHR will shift to 773s and over time, 789s?

Quoting ghifty (Reply 6):
I find the "we're the only airline to offer personal Samsung Galaxy Tabs" bit to be annoying, as well. That might wow most of the general public, but it really just shows that they're too cheap to invest in a "true" in-seat IFE system.

There are 2 problems with in-seat IFE systems. First, they add weight. If a portable system adds less weight to an aircarft than in-seat IFE, then maybe being "cheap" makes sense, between the high price of jet fuel and the ability to carry more cargo.

Second, usually the IFE takes space under the seat. I have a carry-on that fits nicely under the seat of an MD-80, but it requires some brute strength to get it under the seat of a 757 or 738, because the equipment for the IFE juts into the space for underseat storage. People have told me that on planes such as the 767, 777, and A330, it's surprising how much underseat storage the IFE robs.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: blink182
Posted 2012-05-10 10:39:42 and read 9180 times.

Quoting chopchop767 (Reply 57):
Still, surprised to see the First Class on AA go away on the 200ER; surely there are routes where it is needed, or did I miss something on the press release?

I realize that this has been answered a bit, especially by Commavia, but my best guess is that AA feels their new C product will be sufficient to cover for some of the paid F traffic. I suspect that most F traffic on AA is not full fare, hence the decision to get rid of of the product.

Also, lets not lose perspective that while AA will be taking out F, they are implementing a product nearly identical (?) to CX's C product that has gotten rave reviews; I'm not sure premium pax are getting screwed over on the hard product. If AA wanted to on select flights, they could even offer the F turndown service. Nothing scientific, but I've been on these forums long enough to remember how outraged people were several years ago when AA hyped up its now current C class with promises of innovation and new design only to unveil a product that many airlines at the time had either been using or were nearing retirement of. For the newly introduced C product that is being discussed here, I noticed that this website's reaction was much more positive.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-05-10 10:51:50 and read 9151 times.

Quoting blink182 (Reply 67):
my best guess is that AA feels their new C product will be sufficient to cover for some of the paid F traffic.

Yep. AA feels they can capture most of the paid premium traffic in their upgraded J, with any lingering F demand to Europe/Asia being put onto BA's or JAL's planes.

Quoting blink182 (Reply 67):
Also, lets not lose perspective that while AA will be taking out F, they are implementing a product nearly identical (?) to CX's C product that has gotten rave reviews; I'm not sure premium pax are getting screwed over on the hard product.

Exactly. What this will hurt most is upgrades. For paid longhaul premium customers, the new J seat looks nearly as good as AA's existing Flagship Suite F product, and certainly as good if not better than any J product AA's main U.S. (and frankly even in most cases international) competitors offer.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: usxguy
Posted 2012-05-10 11:08:20 and read 9086 times.

Y+ will be 9 across and Y will be 10 - AA will then use this as a selling point to state "more legroom, more width" as a way to jab at United.

But what they won't tell you is that 9 across is the current "standard".

I'm begging/praying that United/Delta do NOT follow thru and do 10 across.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-05-10 11:09:12 and read 9074 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
That said, absolutely I'm sure AA is considering 10 abreast. It would be stupid not too.
Quoting sxf24 (Reply 55):
Every single document I've seen indicates the 77Ws will be delivered 10 abreast in Y.

I think it would be a mistake to be the first 777 operator in North America with 10-abreast. Would encourage passengers to switch to the competition which isn't what you want to do when trying to exit bankruptcy. And in my experience Americans tend to be larger on average than most other nationalities, making 10-abreast even less desirable.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 66):
There are 2 problems with in-seat IFE systems. First, they add weight.

Second, usually the IFE takes space under the seat. I

And third, they're very maintenance-intensive. I've rarely been on a flight where the IFE system works perfectly at all seats.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-05-10 11:13:24 and read 9057 times.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 69):
I'm begging/praying that United/Delta do NOT follow thru and do 10 across.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 70):
I think it would be a mistake to be the first 777 operator in North America with 10-abreast. Would encourage passengers to switch to the competition which isn't what you want to do when trying to exit bankruptcy.

I share the dread at 10-abreast Y, as it seems that is the way AA is likely going. But, if AA "gets away" with it and doesn't face a massive market backlash, I don't think Delta and United will have any choice but to match. Making the planes that dense is going to drive the CASM so low that it will give AA a substantial cost advantage.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-05-10 11:17:15 and read 9040 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 65):
then AA has higher priorities for their very scarce F-configured jets than LAX-NRT and LAX-LHR, both of which are markets where any F demand that exists can be handled by partners with arguable as-good or better F products to begin with.

That only leaves GRU/EZE and MAD. Every other route has BA, JL, and CX, which all have superior F.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-05-10 13:05:08 and read 8862 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 70):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
That said, absolutely I'm sure AA is considering 10 abreast. It would be stupid not too.
Quoting sxf24 (Reply 55):
Every single document I've seen indicates the 77Ws will be delivered 10 abreast in Y.

I think it would be a mistake to be the first 777 operator in North America with 10-abreast. Would encourage passengers to switch to the competition which isn't what you want to do when trying to exit bankruptcy. And in my experience Americans tend to be larger on average than most other nationalities, making 10-abreast even less desirable.

I think it's unfortunate, but it's the direction we are headed in. It hasn't hurt Air France, Emirates, etc. and it won't hurt American. It won't be long before United and Delta Air Lines join in.

Quoting commavia (Reply 68):
Exactly. What this will hurt most is upgrades. For paid longhaul premium customers, the new J seat looks nearly as good as AA's existing Flagship Suite F product, and certainly as good if not better than any J product AA's main U.S. (and frankly even in most cases international) competitors offer.

With no F cabin, the J seats in the 772 will actually be even nicer than the 77W J seats. It's actually not going to be the same seat. AA is rumored to be going for an out there "next generation" product with the 772 J.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-05-10 13:14:33 and read 8783 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 73):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 70):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
That said, absolutely I'm sure AA is considering 10 abreast. It would be stupid not too.
Quoting sxf24 (Reply 55):
Every single document I've seen indicates the 77Ws will be delivered 10 abreast in Y.

I think it would be a mistake to be the first 777 operator in North America with 10-abreast. Would encourage passengers to switch to the competition which isn't what you want to do when trying to exit bankruptcy. And in my experience Americans tend to be larger on average than most other nationalities, making 10-abreast even less desirable.

I think it's unfortunate, but it's the direction we are headed in. It hasn't hurt Air France, Emirates, etc. and it won't hurt American. It won't be long before United and Delta Air Lines join in.

Not sure it hasn't hurt AF. Their 10-abreast 777s could be a factor for their very poor recent financial performance. Although load factors are high the 10-abreast configuration may result in lower yields compared to carriers like BA with more civilized 9-abreast configurations. Many companies now require their employees to fly in Y and they're much more likely to be aware of the differences, and they usually pay the highest less-restrictive fares.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: blink182
Posted 2012-05-10 15:42:38 and read 8503 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 72):
That only leaves GRU/EZE and MAD.

I can't speak for GRU/EZE, but looking at IB, their widebodies are Y-heavy with smaller C sections up front that may indicate MAD doesn't need a F cabin. To the best of my knowledge, AA does not fly their premium-heavy 77E, which has I believe nearly equal Y seat capacity to the 763, to MAD. I could see MAD among the first destinations and DFW-MAD among the first routes to go from 763 to two-class 77E.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 69):

Y+ will be 9 across and Y will be 10 - AA will then use this as a selling point to state "more legroom, more width" as a way to jab at United.

--To which UA would reply "ALL of our seats are 9 abreast," but they'd do it in cheeky-CO language.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 70):
And in my experience Americans tend to be larger on average than most other nationalities, making 10-abreast even less desirable.

Fair observation and a good one, but AF, KL, EK, and EY all fly 10-abreast 777s to the US and pax just deal with it. I don't know whether they like it, but they deal with it. AA has never been one to care much for the occasional Y-traveler, so I don't think AA would even listen to a bunch of low-yield vacationers complaining about this. Now, if AA's Exec Plats get angry and flee to UA and DL, maybe then AA would do something, but those pax will likely be in MCE at a minimum.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: klkla
Posted 2012-05-10 16:50:32 and read 8361 times.

AA is saying up to 45 Y+ seats. 9 (abreast) x 5 (rows) equals 45. Doesn't that seem to imply they will stay with 2-5-2 (or 3-3-3) ?

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: Byrdluvs747
Posted 2012-05-10 17:38:49 and read 8259 times.

Quote:
Tomorrow we’ll give you a sneak peek into the future of American Airlines. What do you think it is? Dream big!

Ok if I'm to dream big, I will predict a 748i order.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: boilerla
Posted 2012-05-10 21:28:59 and read 7999 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 73):
I think it's unfortunate, but it's the direction we are headed in. It hasn't hurt Air France, Emirates, etc. and it won't hurt American. It won't be long before United and Delta Air Lines join in.

I think that depends on what United and Delta are operating in 10 years since UA isn't going to reconfigure their 772s before they retire them. UA selected the 787 to replace the 763s and 764s, and the A350 to replace the 744, but didn't order enough of either--even with options--to replace all the 772s in addition to the other widebodies.

If UA uses either the 787-10X or A359 to replace the 772s, they will not need 10 abreast seating since both the 787 and A359 don't have it. IMHO 10-abreast in the 777 will be worse than 9-abreast in the 787, simply because of the better experience the 787 will provide, but I've obviously yet been able to judge.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: whappeh
Posted 2012-05-11 08:50:17 and read 7694 times.

http://www.cntraveler.com/daily-trav...s-class-first-class-photos#slide=1

Just pointing out that (and the comments in the article also point out) that it is identical to US Airways Envoy product. Something to ponder.   

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: rdh3e
Posted 2012-05-11 09:13:19 and read 7548 times.

Quoting klkla (Reply 76):
AA is saying up to 45 Y+ seats. 9 (abreast) x 5 (rows) equals 45. Doesn't that seem to imply they will stay with 2-5-2 (or 3-3-3) ?

For Y+. But that doesn't mean they won't go 10 across in straight cattle class.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-05-11 09:36:54 and read 7514 times.

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 80):
Quoting klkla (Reply 76):
AA is saying up to 45 Y+ seats. 9 (abreast) x 5 (rows) equals 45. Doesn't that seem to imply they will stay with 2-5-2 (or 3-3-3) ?

For Y+. But that doesn't mean they won't go 10 across in straight cattle class.

Multiple blog/posts at Flyertalk, BoardingArea.com and Twitter has confirmed 3-4-3, apparently from AA directly :

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/viewfr...-10-across-in-coach-on-their-777s/

https://twitter.com/#!/hharteveldt/status/200267948663914496

http://crankyflier.com/2012/05/10/am...CrankyFlier+%28The+Cranky+Flier%29

There's no more Y. There's only Y+ and Y-.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: UAL727NE
Posted 2012-05-11 10:35:36 and read 7407 times.

So I just read on thier Facebook that it is 3-4-3 and the 77E will follow suit. So yes it is going to be alil cramped in there. Source is a comment AA replied to on thier page.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: qqflyboy
Posted 2012-05-11 11:13:17 and read 7315 times.

Quoting UAL727NE (Reply 82):

Just read the same. While not surprising, it is disappointing.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: AKLDELNonstop
Posted 2012-05-11 11:26:23 and read 7284 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 81):

While it is certainly less comfortable than a 3-3-3 config., it makes sense to do it from an economical perspective. At today's fuel prices, any additional revenue helps. That said, from a customer perspective, there are two things that could actually make this a positive move:

1. The loss of the dreaded middle seat in the 2-5-2 config
2. The introduction of next generation seats with USB ports, nice IFE screen etc. which IMO should happen judging by their choice of the new J seat.

Also it will be interesting to see two actual numbers for 1) increase in legroom and 2) decrease in seat width

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: Longhornmaniac
Posted 2012-05-11 11:39:10 and read 7246 times.

Quoting whappeh (Reply 79):

As already mentioned, comparing the US Cirrus seat (Chevy), to the AA Cirrus seat (BMW), is disingenuous. What I do wonder, since they are the same basic design, how is the window viewing? The window seats seem awfully far from the windows.

I'm disappointed that AA will move to a 3-4-3 in Y, but I can't say I'm surprised. We're in a different era now, and CASM is very important.

As far as F, I've always loved that AA was one of two US airlines to offer F, but I suppose that won't really change. The Flagship product will live on, and if they do decide to put it on the 787, which all indications point to, by the time they've received most of their 787s they'll actually have more aircraft with F than they do currently with their ~50 77E (assuming they don't have a subfleet of Dreamliners with F, which is certainly a possibility).

Overall, I feel very optimistic for the company's product. AA is really doing a good job to reinvent themselves from a passenger perspective. But it remains that the biggest hurdle to profitability is fixing their labor issues.

Cheers,
Cameron

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: laca773
Posted 2012-05-12 09:38:14 and read 6673 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 65):
They aren't "missing" from my predictions - I intentionally omitted them. I may well be wrong, but by my estimation, if AA does - indeed - intend to grow post-bankruptcy, including using their 77Ws to expand their international presence, then AA has higher priorities for their very scarce F-configured jets than LAX-NRT and LAX-LHR, both of which are markets where any F demand that exists can be handled by partners with arguable as-good or better F products to begin with.

I had a feeling you were thinking along these lines and this makes good sense, Commavia.

Quoting commavia (Reply 71):
I share the dread at 10-abreast Y, as it seems that is the way AA is likely going. But, if AA "gets away" with it and doesn't face a massive market backlash, I don't think Delta and United will have any choice but to match. Making the planes that dense is going to drive the CASM so low that it will give AA a substantial cost advantage.

USE
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 73):

I think it's unfortunate, but it's the direction we are headed in. It hasn't hurt Air France, Emirates, etc. and it won't hurt American. It won't be long before United and Delta Air Lines join in.

Honestly, I don't see this 10 abreast going as well for AA or any other US airline like it does for AF, EK, and etc.. In the US, passengers, are much more hefty than in other parts of the world. It's not like flying 10 abreast on a 74X. I don't see this working out well for anyone.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: Atlflyer
Posted 2012-05-12 09:57:24 and read 6613 times.

Once the word gets out I'm sure Delta and UA will advertise that their 777s have one less seat per row than AA's. And both Delta and UA have new Economy seats so it's not like they will rush to add another seat.
I'll avoid AA 777s...

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2012-05-12 10:02:25 and read 6608 times.

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 87):
Once the word gets out I'm sure Delta and UA will advertise that their 777s have one less seat per row than AA's.

Yes, until DL and UA can cram in another seat. If AA can make it work, the others will be right behind. Nobody wants to leave $$ on the table.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: klkla
Posted 2012-05-12 14:28:47 and read 6345 times.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 85):
As already mentioned, comparing the US Cirrus seat (Chevy), to the AA Cirrus seat (BMW), is disingenuous.

Why? It's the same seat!

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: vegas005
Posted 2012-05-12 23:35:21 and read 5972 times.

Not starting till 2014...yawn. Wake me when they have a real product installed.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: whappeh
Posted 2012-05-13 06:37:27 and read 5650 times.

Quoting klkla (Reply 89):
Why? It's the same seat!

Yeah, isn't US's seat the same seat used by CX as well?

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-05-13 08:17:51 and read 5480 times.

Quoting whappeh (Reply 91):
Yeah, isn't US's seat the same seat used by CX as well?

Yep, as well as the new flat-bed seats on DL's 744s and soon on the A330s (although DL's are made by Weber instead of Sicma).

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: AAIL86
Posted 2012-05-13 09:36:03 and read 5343 times.

Quoting klkla (Reply 89):
Why? It's the same seat!

Toyota also manufactures Lexus, does that mean they are the same? From all accounts this a is premium version of that seat.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: klkla
Posted 2012-05-13 15:06:32 and read 5030 times.

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 93):
From all accounts this a is premium version of that seat.

Premium in what way? They're all basically the same seat. Also, what accounts? The opinion of AA fanboys?

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 93):
Toyota also manufactures Lexus, does that mean they are the same?

A better analogy 'might' be between Corolla L and LE (Same model with different trim).

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: ZaphodB
Posted 2012-05-13 16:44:55 and read 4871 times.

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 93):
Toyota also manufactures Lexus, does that mean they are the same?

In the case of the Lexus ES, basically yes. Its a Camry V6 with some naff looking plastic wood trim and has worse ride and road noise than the Camry because of the 17" wheels.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: AAIL86
Posted 2012-05-13 19:48:38 and read 4606 times.

Quoting ZaphodB (Reply 95):

In the case of the Lexus ES, basically yes. Its a Camry V6 with some naff looking plastic wood trim and has worse ride and road noise than the Camry because of the 17" wheels.
Quoting klkla (Reply 94):
Premium in what way? They're all basically the same seat. Also, what accounts? The opinion of AA fanboys?

Well I guess we'll just have to see if the extra money AA paid for the "premium" version was a worthwhile investment, won't we?  

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: 777STL
Posted 2012-05-14 10:26:55 and read 4178 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 70):
I think it would be a mistake to be the first 777 operator in North America with 10-abreast. Would encourage passengers to switch to the competition which isn't what you want to do when trying to exit bankruptcy. And in my experience Americans tend to be larger on average than most other nationalities, making 10-abreast even less desirable.

I'm a big fan of AA, but if I'm flying economy across the pond - I'm either flying UA or BA now. At least with UA, I can upgrade to their Y+ for a nominal price - which so far doesn't appear to be possible with AA's new scheme(full fare Y ticket or elite status only). I'm surely not going to pay more for what AA used to offer as standard product.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2012-05-14 10:29:11 and read 4172 times.

Quoting klkla (Reply 89):
Why? It's the same seat!

The basic platform is the same, but beyond that the differences are remarkable.

The Cathay seat has more actuators, one that allows the seat to track forward. This ability to track forward allowed Cathy to sculpt the seat shell in such a way that it provides for more privacy in the middle seats, hence the more sculpted look of the Cathay shell.

AA's version of the seat will have an additional actuator to control the headrest.

From an aesthetic standpoint, every finish on the Cathay seat was carefully selected and the surfaces finishes vary from the exterior to the interior of the shell. Discerning passengers will notice these things. The US and Delta versions of the seat do not have anywhere near the attention to detail of the Cathay seat. Those two seats are as plastic as they come.

Overall, Cathay sought through the design of their seat to make it seem like a high-end piece of furniture. That explains the wingback appearance of the seat itself and the storage compartments for shoes and headphones.

Cathay worked with JPA London on customizing the Sicma Cirrus seat for its use. AA has been working with the same design firm since last year on its new premium concepts. With JPA, AA is apparently developing a different, totally custom seat for the 772. It will not be the same seat, but the cabin itself will have the same color and trim concepts already evident in AA's version of the Cathay Cirrus seat.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-05-14 10:32:47 and read 4153 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 98):
Cathay worked with JPA London on customizing the Sicma Cirrus seat for its use. AA has been working with the same design firm since last year on its new premium concepts. With JPA, AA is apparently developing a different, totally custom seat for the 772. It will not be the same seat, but the cabin itself will have the same color and trim concepts already evident in AA's version of the Cathay Cirrus seat.

Will the seats be made by Sicma (who made them for CX and US) or will they be made by Weber (who made them for DL)?

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2012-05-14 10:43:45 and read 4136 times.

Quoting klkla (Reply 94):
Premium in what way? They're all basically the same seat. Also, what accounts? The opinion of AA fanboys?

No, not AA fanboys. The very design firm that worked with both Cathay and US thinks that the Cathay seat is better (more premium).

Go to www.jpadesign.com/transport. They have pictures of both seats and a description of the features. There is also a case study on the JPA site describing the design process for the Cathay seat.

No discerning customer after looking and sitting in both seats would think the Cathay seat and the US Airways seat were the same seat.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-05-14 10:48:52 and read 4107 times.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 97):
which so far doesn't appear to be possible with AA's new scheme(full fare Y ticket or elite status only).
AA isn't stupid enough to pass up this revenue opportunity. It will entirely be possible to upgrade from any fare, likely in line with what DL and UA charge.

[Edited 2012-05-14 11:02:39]

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: AAIL86
Posted 2012-05-15 05:31:53 and read 3619 times.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 97):
I'm a big fan of AA, but if I'm flying economy across the pond - I'm either flying UA or BA now. At least with UA, I can upgrade to their Y+ for a nominal price - which so far doesn't appear to be possible with AA's new scheme(full fare Y ticket or elite status only).

AA has already announced that any ticketed customer will be able purchase their Y+ for a nominal surcharge. Stated price is $8-$108 per segment.

http://www.aa.com/i18n/urls/mainCabinExtra.jsp

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: Byrdluvs747
Posted 2012-05-15 05:42:39 and read 3558 times.

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 102):
Stated price is $8-$108 per segment.

I'm wondering what route will the 77W fly that warrants only a $8 fee? The famous ORD-DFW transitional runs?

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-05-15 06:24:28 and read 3454 times.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 103):
I'm wondering what route will the 77W fly that warrants only a $8 fee? The famous ORD-DFW transitional runs?

I'm thinking it's tiered by both flight distance and booking fare class, so $8 would only apply for contiguous 48 repositioning flights flying on the highest fare class that just missed the cutoff for complementary Y+ assignment.

But I'd imagine $108 might be a bit short-changing themselves on a 17 hour flight like the hyped-up-but-not-yet-true DFW-HKG.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2012-05-15 11:12:52 and read 3250 times.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 103):
Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 102):
Stated price is $8-$108 per segment.

I'm wondering what route will the 77W fly that warrants only a $8 fee? The famous ORD-DFW transitional runs?

MCE is being introduced on every mainline aircraft, including the 738s, A319s, etc.

Topic: RE: AA Announces New Long-haul Product
Username: Byrdluvs747
Posted 2012-05-15 16:30:57 and read 3010 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 105):
MCE is being introduced on every mainline aircraft, including the 738s, A319s, etc.

I'm just wondering if AA FA's will vigorously enforce the Y+ seating, as I can see people trying to seat-squat in MCE.


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