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Topic: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: LIPZ
Posted 2012-05-16 03:12:51 and read 18875 times.

Just announced by SIA.

ATH and AUH will be suspended by the end of Oct.

Very sad to see Athens loosing another international carrier.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/news/2012...o-athens-abu-dhabi-on-weak-demand/

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: Docpepz
Posted 2012-05-16 03:18:51 and read 18845 times.

Will the JED flight go via DXB then?

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: kl911
Posted 2012-05-16 03:24:26 and read 18782 times.

ATH is no surprise seen the economic collapse of that country. Looking at it that way I wonder how long service to Italy and Spain will last. They need the front occupied, and thats hard with an economy in shatters.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-05-16 03:39:27 and read 18635 times.

Athens cant be a shock to anyone. I would not be surprised to hear of more airlines at least changing to seasonal service in the future.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-05-16 03:50:04 and read 18498 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 3):
Athens cant be a shock to anyone. I would not be surprised to hear of more airlines at least changing to seasonal service in the future

So will ATH finally bottom out and those carriers that stuck with it will reap the rewards once the economy rebounds, or will ATH end up like a ULCC hub for an airline or two, with a few European carriers flying there mostly for connections onward?

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-05-16 03:53:54 and read 18478 times.

SQ had announced that they were going back to the tag ATH-IST-SIN from the Winter timetable but loads were very light on the ATH-IST sector so I guess it doesnt make sense.

The Gulf carriers have the business these days at ATH . There is not enough bums to fill seats in the current climate so I guess only the fittest survive.

Trends at ATH have changed and some airlines are doing well and some have seen large drops.

Sad to see SQ go but not a surprise to anyone. Maybe they will return in future or on a seasonal basis like many carriers do . ATH is seasonal for longhaul.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: MillwallSean
Posted 2012-05-16 04:20:30 and read 18201 times.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
ATH is no surprise seen the economic collapse of that country. Looking at it that way I wonder how long service to Italy and Spain will last. They need the front occupied, and thats hard with an economy in shatters.

Somehow I dont think this route is failing because of the greek economy. As seen there is plenty of money in Greece, just not where the government can reach it...
Its more that the gulfcarriers have taken over the job of transporting greeks to the likes of Melbourne. Almost every gulfcarrier serves Athems these days and SQ cant beat them on price or serice or amount of destinations.

If SQ has to stop Rome it will be because they cant compete with the gulfcarriers not because the market has dried out.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: smi0006
Posted 2012-05-16 04:25:10 and read 18137 times.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 6):
Its more that the gulfcarriers have taken over the job of transporting greeks to the likes of Melbourne. Almost every gulfcarrier serves Athems these days and SQ cant beat them on price or serice or amount of destinations.

Indeed, I agree. Interesting this maybe a route where we see the gulf carriers doing to SQ, what SQ has done to QF/OA/BA etc out of Australia to ATH.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2012-05-16 04:25:13 and read 18138 times.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 6):
If SQ has to stop Rome

Rome may very well be the next one to get the axe. With 3 weekly frequencies in summer and just 2 in winter, and with CX recently announcing a reduction in HKGFCO service, things are likely not looking good there.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-05-16 04:31:42 and read 18060 times.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
ATH is no surprise seen the economic collapse of that country. Looking at it that way I wonder how long service to Italy and Spain will last. They need the front occupied, and thats hard with an economy in shatters.

Oh come one, Greece's economy is a drop in the bucket compared to Italy and Spain. Remember that the economic collapse is impacting primarily the public sector, not so much the private sector. It's the private sector that occupies the front cabin. I'd say that competition and fuel costs has greater impact on SQ's service than the local economy.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 6):
If SQ has to stop Rome it will be because they cant compete with the gulfcarriers not because the market has dried out.

   That too.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: AngMoh
Posted 2012-05-16 04:35:14 and read 18018 times.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 6):
Somehow I dont think this route is failing because of the greek economy. As seen there is plenty of money in Greece, just not where the government can reach it...
Its more that the gulfcarriers have taken over the job of transporting greeks to the likes of Melbourne. Almost every gulfcarrier serves Athems these days and SQ cant beat them on price or serice or amount of destinations.

If SQ has to stop Rome it will be because they cant compete with the gulfcarriers not because the market has dried out.

The volume going from ATH to Asia is just not there. TG also could not sustain this route on a daily basis. And with 2 flights a week, it is not sustainable. It is purely catering to tourist. The ME carriers can make it work, because apart from connections to SE Asia and Australia, they offer also connections to Middle East, India and Africa.

I think the capacity will be re-routed to CPH, going from 3 times per week possibly to 5 times per week. CPH loads are good (also a lot of leisure) and the ATH and CPH flights were both old 77Es, so the config was the same.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-05-16 04:37:50 and read 17994 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
emember that the economic collapse is impacting primarily the public sector, not so much the private sector. It's the private sector that occupies the front cabin.

The problem with this is that Greece is a country which literally fits Margaret Thatcher's "nation of shopkeepers". I've read that the average private sector firm in Greece employs fewer than 15 people. SMEs are those that sit up front.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: brightcedars
Posted 2012-05-16 04:40:37 and read 17939 times.

Sure is. SQ has a premium public following in the UAE but it's hard to beat local airlines like EY and EK.

As for ATH, same thing here, the Gulf carriers have made their nest, don't all EK, EY and QR operate there regularly?

Unless SIN is your destination, you have little motivation to favor SQ over the others, and the market ATH-SIN can only be a slim one.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: LOT767SP-LPA
Posted 2012-05-16 05:24:19 and read 17651 times.

There is still Central European market to fill by SQ like Prague or Warsaw.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-05-16 06:00:11 and read 17401 times.

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 12):
As for ATH, same thing here, the Gulf carriers have made their nest, don't all EK, EY and QR operate there regularly?

Yes GF EK EY QR

http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/PhilipOA260/SKATH/file-140.jpg

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: ju068
Posted 2012-05-16 06:02:18 and read 17400 times.

Isn't Gulf Air dropping Athens as well?

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-05-16 06:11:18 and read 17323 times.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 15):
Isn't Gulf Air dropping Athens as well?

Indeed my bad . GF dropped out in March . Pic was taken prior. They were weak in ATH compared to their other Gulf neighbours. GF seem to have dropped alot in recent years. They pulled out of DUB also then EY came in and cleaned up which GF failed on .

Out of ATH the Gulf carriers get alot of migrant workers from Asia which must keep them going.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-05-16 06:34:15 and read 17129 times.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 10):
The volume going from ATH to Asia is just not there. TG also could not sustain this route on a daily basis. And with 2 flights a week, it is not sustainable. It is purely catering to tourist. The ME carriers can make it work, because apart from connections to SE Asia and Australia, they offer also connections to Middle East, India and Africa.

Somehow I don't think there's a lot of traffic between Athens and Africa or between Athens and India, or even between Athens and the ME. However there is traffic between Athens and Australia as well as some of Asia and the Gulf hubs and airlines are far better positioned to handle this traffic than SIN or BKK. More importantly, ATH is a very long flight from SIN and with fuel costs as high as they are my guess is that it just doesn't addup anymore.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: ju068
Posted 2012-05-16 07:33:24 and read 16796 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
Indeed my bad . GF dropped out in March . Pic was taken prior. They were weak in ATH compared to their other Gulf neighbours. GF seem to have dropped alot in recent years. They pulled out of DUB also then EY came in and cleaned up which GF failed on .

Maybe you can confirm, but did Gulf Air operate their Embraers into Athens some time ago? I remember seeing them though I am not sure.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):

I know this might not mean much but the last two times I flew out of Athens I remember seeing a lot of passengers waiting for both Qatar's and Emirates' flights and they were Pakistani, Indians and Chinese. They must been at least in the hundreds in the non-Schengen part of the airport. Most of them seemed like tourists though.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-05-16 08:05:28 and read 16577 times.

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
Very sad to see Athens loosing another international carrier.

Is this flight dropped or going seasonal? What long haul with ATH have this winter?

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 4):
So will ATH finally bottom out and those carriers that stuck with it will reap the rewards once the economy rebounds,

When ATH recovers, airlines will re-enter the market. I suspect ATH will do better once the 787 is in mass production (lower cost per long-haul flight)

Quoting OA260 (Reply 14):
Yes GF EK EY QR

Nice photo! The EK widebody sticks out. But as you note:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
GF dropped out in March .

  GF just doesn't have the connections of TK, EK, QR, and EY. It isn't good to be #5 in a race where only the top 3 are able to make a profit or break even.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
Out of ATH the Gulf carriers get alot of migrant workers from Asia which must keep them going.

With the status of the economy, is there much demand in ATH for migrant workers?

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: lax777lr
Posted 2012-05-16 08:33:53 and read 16289 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 4):
So will ATH finally bottom out and those carriers that stuck with it will reap the rewards once the economy rebounds, or will ATH end up like a ULCC hub for an airline or two, with a few European carriers flying there mostly for connections onward?

Unfortunately I don't think any rewards will ever outweigh the bleeding for the foreseeable future in Athens..... ULCC is the only possibility for success...

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-05-16 08:51:11 and read 15943 times.



I seem to remember they were deploying them but I dont recall seeing them at ATH .

Quoting ju068 (Reply 18):
Maybe you can confirm, but did Gulf Air operate their Embraers into Athens some time ago? I remember seeing them though I am not sure.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
When ATH recovers, airlines will re-enter the market. I suspect ATH will do better once the 787 is in mass production (lower cost per long-haul flight)
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
With the status of the economy, is there much demand in ATH for migrant workers?
Quoting lax777lr (Reply 20):
Unfortunately I don't think any rewards will ever outweigh the bleeding for the foreseeable future in Athens..... ULCC is the only possibility for success...

I see the majority staying and ATH still retains decent carriers like LH LX BA AF KL TK EK EY QR A3 OA etc... Many added flights over the last 18 months. BA have 4 flights a day now LHR-ATH the additional 0630 from LHR is a good sign too . A mix of A320s and B767s are used. With the thousands of Greeks that have left for other European capitals the trends of traffic will change. Ironically the exodus might increase some European traffic with people travelling back and forth.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: ju068
Posted 2012-05-16 08:58:35 and read 15780 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):
I see the majority staying and ATH still retains decent carriers like LH LX BA AF KL TK EK EY QR A3 OA etc... Many added flights over the last 18 months.

You forgot JU 

All jokes aside they did increase the seat capacity from 750 to 924 weekly seats offered between Belgrade and Athens.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: HiJazzey
Posted 2012-05-16 09:03:44 and read 15701 times.

Quoting Docpepz (Reply 1):
Will the JED flight go via DXB then?

Came in to ask this. What will happen to the JED flights?

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-05-16 09:14:40 and read 15486 times.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 22):
You forgot JU 

All jokes aside they did increase the seat capacity from 750 to 924 weekly seats offered between Belgrade and Athens.

Indeed .   lol... I chose the ones with the hubs   Except A3 and OA of course who are small point to point airlines with A3 more of a feeder to Star Alliance with some key EU routes.

Regarding SQ for those that want to go that direction there are decent connections VIA IST with TK or even A3 to IST and then pick up SQ. Its only a short hop to IST .

AIA also have a great incentive available to airlines on certain routes 15% if they maintain their services give or take 5% on the previous year and for new routes upto 50% discount on landing/parking fees.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2012-05-16 09:17:57 and read 15871 times.

Foreign investment in greece has dried up totally i understand - companies are afraid to invest until the market settles.

These are the people who travel up-front on last minute tickets.

This, alongside a reduction in outbound tourism, and competition from the Gulf has killed this route for SQ.

Perhaps a market for Scoot in five years?

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-05-16 10:17:04 and read 15052 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 25):
Foreign investment in greece has dried up totally i understand - companies are afraid to invest until the market settles.

Companies are afraid to invest as there is too high of a tax/socialization risk. You are correct, if they are not investing, that kills last minute premium sales which routes live and die on.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 25):
This, alongside a reduction in outbound tourism, and competition from the Gulf has killed this route for SQ.

SQ also has too premium of a product for ATH in this economy. EK puts in a higher density J product that allows them to undercut SQ's pricing. Unfortunately some companies are having to scrutinize their travel budgets and it is amazing how much can be saved by dropping to a 'slightly less premium' J class product. In particular, if the company is willing to sign a contract committing to a minimum purchase over a time frame.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-05-16 11:03:02 and read 14819 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):

I see the majority staying and ATH still retains decent carriers like LH LX BA AF KL TK EK EY QR A3 OA etc... Many added flights over the last 18 months

Many also reduced like KL (reduced by 2 dailies during Summer and 1 daily during Winter), SN and TP (both will serve ATH only during Summers).

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
With the status of the economy, is there much demand in ATH for migrant workers?

I think he means that Greek going abroad to work, not migrants coming into Greece to work.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: peanuts
Posted 2012-05-16 11:03:39 and read 14812 times.

The economics of Greece, in my view, have only expedited ATH's long term fate: becoming a spoke/feeder for only a few major carriers.

Olympic has lost out to the likes of TK and EK. ATH has lost out to IST. In general Greece/ATH have lost out to the major European carriers and hubs (include ME DXB/EK in that as well). As a result, ATH will have fewer long haul nonstop/direct choices. More travelers to and from Greece will just have to get used to flying through a hub first before arriving at destination.

[Edited 2012-05-16 11:05:41]

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: ju068
Posted 2012-05-16 11:31:41 and read 14386 times.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 28):
Olympic has lost out to the likes of TK and EK.

I do not think we can even speak about Olympic as an important carrier. The Greek government made sure of that. I believe it was Aegean that could have developed Athens as a true hub. Unfortunately they didn't...

The problem with Athens is that until very recently the charges for airlines were crazy. They were charging around €200 for 40 mintes of jet bridges without aircondition. The parking and service fees were crazy as well. The managment did not help at all to the airline that were/are based there.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: dash8pilot
Posted 2012-05-16 12:19:07 and read 13867 times.

Although SQ will be missed.. A few airlines are acctually starting/ resuming operations to Athens.

1) Aegean Airlines to Beirut
2) Aegean Airlines to Tbilisi
3) Aegean Airlines to Prague
4) Air One to Venice
5) Cyprus Airlines to LHR
6) Easyjet to Berlin
7) LOT to Krakow
8) S7 to Moscow

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-05-16 13:05:55 and read 13300 times.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 28):
Olympic has lost out to the likes of TK and EK. ATH has lost out to IST. In general Greece/ATH have lost out to the major European carriers and hubs (include ME DXB/EK in that as well).

ATH was only a minor transit mini hub in the old days of Olympic Airways when they operated from Hellinikon and only managed to offer all those longhaul routes due to government funding and over employment. It was never a contender to IST which cant be compared and also has a totally different set up/market. Its like comparing LUX to LHR .

Quoting peanuts (Reply 28):
As a result, ATH will have fewer long haul nonstop/direct choices. More travelers to and from Greece will just have to get used to flying through a hub first before arriving at destination.

Indeed but many choose the likes of LX LH TK BA etc... these days anyway including myself. We are well used to two flights to get from A to B . Not an issue really. As long as you have decent hubs to connect to East and West then its enough. The luxury of direct flights to JFK ,BOS,JNB,SYD,MEL is a luxury no longer needed or warranted.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 29):
I do not think we can even speak about Olympic as an important carrier. The Greek government made sure of that.

Indeed its an important Domestic carrier and has a few key Balkan and Middle East routes. They need to stick to what they do best and stay small.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 29):
I believe it was Aegean that could have developed Athens as a true hub. Unfortunately they didn't...

No not even in the good days could A3 be that . Its a pipe dream for reasons stated above. A3 is a ''regional'' member of the Star Alliance and supports the major hubs of FRA MUC LHR by means of a feed. They also have their own key routes and continue to grow but they will never be anything like a hub contender. They do have a very decent product and membership of Star has given them enhanced brand awareness.

Quoting dash8pilot (Reply 30):
Although SQ will be missed.. A few airlines are acctually starting/ resuming operations to Athens

Indeed like I said airlines will come airlines will go the major ones ( mostly EU ) will stay. They will tweak their schedules Summer and Winter as needed and thats the way it should be . AF/KL reduce flights BA increase theirs. Thats normal. Some are cutting their routes due to their own financial issues. ATH will hold its own people dont stop flying purely because a country is in economic crisis.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: sq_ek_freak
Posted 2012-05-16 13:06:13 and read 13324 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
Rome may very well be the next one to get the axe. With 3 weekly frequencies in summer and just 2 in winter, and with CX recently announcing a reduction in HKGFCO service, things are likely not looking good there.

Holy cow I didn't realize that Rome had fallen to such spotty frequencies from Cathay and Singapore. I'm assuming CX uses the A343 and SQ uses their 772 SV serires aircraft on the route?

Well, at least if anything CX and SQ crew can have very nice and long layovers in Rome   Can't say as much for us EK crew in Rome  

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: ju068
Posted 2012-05-16 13:35:22 and read 12921 times.

Quoting dash8pilot (Reply 30):
1) Aegean Airlines to Beirut
2) Aegean Airlines to Tbilisi
3) Aegean Airlines to Prague
4) Air One to Venice
5) Cyprus Airlines to LHR
6) Easyjet to Berlin
7) LOT to Krakow
8) S7 to Moscow

Not a new route but airBaltic had announced that they will be increasing Riga-Athens from 3 to 4 weekly flights. Also Cyprus Airways recently launched three daily flights from Athens to Thessaloniki.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
No not even in the good days could A3 be that . Its a pipe dream for reasons stated above. A3 is a ''regional'' member of the Star Alliance and supports the major hubs of FRA MUC LHR by means of a feed. They also have their own key routes and continue to grow but they will never be anything like a hub contender. They do have a very decent product and membership of Star has given them enhanced brand awareness.

Well I said that they could be based on the fact that Athens has a good geographical location and that they do operate out of a modern airport. The fact that some other players prefrered them to say a ''regional'' carrier is a different story.

Also, I fly a lot on Aegean and I have noticed that their on board product is quite mediocre now. I believe Olympic and Cyprus Airways offer a better flying experience than Aegean does. Besides the miles and connecting opportunities in Athens I do not see anything else they have to offer other airlines from the region do not.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: peanuts
Posted 2012-05-16 13:56:46 and read 12658 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
ATH was only a minor transit mini hub in the old days of Olympic Airways

Athens was much more important before that. Athens was an important stopover between NW Europe and Asia for different major carriers, refueling being an important part of that.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
It was never a contender to IST which cant be compared and also has a totally different set up/market.

But if Greece had any vision decades ago, ATH could have played a more important role in that region of the world. IST's market may be different yet they, and TK, will still benefit from ATH's lack of vision.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-05-16 14:20:11 and read 12335 times.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 33):
Well I said that they could be based on the fact that Athens has a good geographical location and that they do operate out of a modern airport.

Location yes but one might argue so is BEG / OTP and SOF . The Balkans have changed. Old state run cash cows are dead now . Governments + Airlines = Disaster IMHO . They abuse them . One reason why Greece has two decent carriers these days is down to being private and not run like a social security dept.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 33):
Also, I fly a lot on Aegean and I have noticed that their on board product is quite mediocre now. I believe Olympic and Cyprus Airways offer a better flying experience than Aegean does. Besides the miles and connecting opportunities in Athens I do not see anything else they have to offer other airlines from the region do not.

A3 offers the same as most decent carriers in my opinion. OA offers better crew from my experience. For me as a A3 Gold card holder and loyal Star Alliance member they have the edge for me these days over OA. Sad but true. I will always choose OA on the ATH-IST and ATH-SKG runs just to keep my product knowledge up to date and because I love their product. A3 suits my travel patterns more due to the Star network and varied members.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 34):
Athens was much more important before that. Athens was an important stopover between NW Europe and Asia for different major carriers, refueling being an important part of that.

Yes in the 50s and 60s but hey in the 80s all the staff at OA looked back at the ''good old days''. Famous film stars all at ATH but you could say the same about SNN in Ireland. The world is a different place.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 34):
But if Greece had any vision decades ago, ATH could have played a more important role in that region of the world. IST's market may be different yet they, and TK, will still benefit from ATH's lack of vision.

Maybe who knows I personally dont think so for many reasons.IST is doing great I use it myself and its actually great that Greeks have such a hub only 50 mins flight away . ATH still has its airlines and routes with great access to the major hubs East and West. Id personally choose TK Via IST than LH Via FRA when flying longhaul into or out of ATH .

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-05-16 14:52:43 and read 11995 times.

ATH needs to finish the connection to the port via rail. The best solution to aviation service is to grow demand.

The other is create a better impression in the news for tourism. Getting angry at the nations that are the #1 customers doesn't help...

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
Rome may very well be the next one to get the axe.

Interesting information. Thanks.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
the economic collapse is impacting primarily the public sector, not so much the private sector.

How? The public cuts are undermining the private sector too. People are hiding their money; that never helps demand. Also, if tourism is down, it is impacting most Greek private business.

http://www.businessweek.com/videos/2...-visitors-from-u-dot-k-dot-germany

Quoting ju068 (Reply 33):
Well I said that they could be based on the fact that Athens has a good geographical location and that they do operate out of a modern airport.

ATH would make a reasonable hub, but how clear are the taxes and laws? For business to invest, they need a 'known playing field.' Greece needs to enable a hub to form. I'm not seeing the business environment (including taxes) for that.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-05-16 15:02:39 and read 11916 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):
ATH needs to finish the connection to the port via rail. The best solution to aviation service is to grow demand.

Its not needed. I take the Express bus from ATH to Piraeus port everytime I go back its quick , frequent ( 24 hours ) and only EUR5 .

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: Ben175
Posted 2012-05-16 17:05:56 and read 11036 times.

I flew SIN-AUH in January and loads were quite low in J but almost full in Y. I guess yields must be quite bad too.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-05-16 19:37:38 and read 9834 times.

I can't imagine how there hasn't been a significant drop in passenger numbers at Athens. Nor seeing the Greek government would I trust any numbers they publish since they are trying hard to improve imagine.

I was there last summer and I can tell you the islands look the exact same except even more people looked like they wanted cruises that went thru the islands and to avoid Athens at all costs. When I was in Athens I saw an amazingly different amount of tourists compared to previous s trips in the summer in Athens. I was there last august and almost every hotel was maybe 25 percent full at prime time summer season. The people working at the bar said it was the worst summer ever in Athens and the tourists were avoiding it and cruising thru the islands instead. I can't imagine this summer to be any better everyone still remembers all of the protests and news coverage in downtown Athens. I can't imagine anyone wants to invest in Athens some business traffic might be companies analyzing how to get assets out etc. The middle east airlines are part of the changing climate but Athens has to be more than that the country has no end to its problems in site and Athens has changed very quickly post olympics mostly downward unfortunately. Athens has become much less tourist friendly and dangerous I saw probably 10x more beggars actually desperate you could tell and trash was ridiculous all over the city as budget cuts and strikes were constant sad but true. I flew to Budapest afterwards and it looked Incredibly clean and affluent compared to Athens poverty is skyrocketing in athens I saw so many homeless old people it was sad and they looked ashamed and embarrassed not the usual. Very different than my previous visits Greece is not improving and I refuse to believe the airport hasn't suffered alot both coach and premium customers.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: pilotanthony
Posted 2012-05-16 20:29:46 and read 9548 times.

My mum worked for Olympic Airways/Airlines for 25 years in the London office for ticketing and reservations, i miss the old Olympic and the old Greece   Eleftherios Venizelos is my favorite airport!  

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-05-16 21:34:57 and read 9118 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 37):
Its not needed. I take the Express bus from ATH to Piraeus port everytime I go back its quick , frequent ( 24 hours ) and only EUR5 .

Fair enough. I still think the rail will help tourism. Invest for growth or ...

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 39):
Very different than my previous visits Greece is not improving and I refuse to believe the airport hasn't suffered alot both coach and premium customers.

Thank you for the input. I look at the financial data, for air travel tends to follow the change in financial health, and I too cannot believe ATH isn't seeing a decline in traffic.

I'm very said to hear about the homeless... That is obviously tied to the high unemployment.  

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2012-05-16 21:45:36 and read 9117 times.

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 38):
I flew SIN-AUH in January and loads were quite low in J but almost full in Y. I guess yields must be quite bad too

AUH really seems to be struggling too. That is SQ and AF in a short amount of time that have left.

EY must be taking most of the market that exists, especially the higher yielding traffic.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: ju068
Posted 2012-05-16 22:07:52 and read 8958 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
OA offers better crew from my experience.

Better catering as well, not to mention that OA's aircraft are in an incomparably better state than those of Aegean. Vast majority of their aircraft have their seats torn and the cabin looks worn out. The only advantage Aegean has is that it has in-flight entertainment. Anyway, they only put movies on their flights to Brussels, Paris and London.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
The Balkans have changed. Old state run cash cows are dead now .

I do not see how they have changed to be honest? Tarom, Jat Airways, Bulgaria Air, Croatia Airlines, Adria, Air B&H and Montenegro Airlines are still the same. The only regions which saw improvement are Greece and Turkey.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 37):
Its not needed. I take the Express bus from ATH to Piraeus port everytime I go back its quick , frequent ( 24 hours ) and only EUR5 .

It is quick if you do not end up in a traffic jam which are more than common in Athens, especially once you are in the city. The metro is the better alternative, it is almost the same price (€8) and it takes roughly 35 minutes to reach Syntagma. Not to mention that the buses tend to be dirty and quite old. I took the bus three times to the airport, and two of those times I almost missed the flight because of traffic jams and blocked roads.
Metro FTW.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-05-16 23:05:19 and read 8566 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 27):
I think he means that Greek going abroad to work, not migrants coming into Greece to work.

Thank you. I sit corrected.  
Quoting peanuts (Reply 34):
IST's market may be different yet they, and TK, will still benefit from ATH's lack of vision.

I would agree. If ATH had built a hub earlier and promoted it, they could have accelerated growth. Greece could use that level of jobs...

Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
its actually great that Greeks have such a hub only 50 mins flight away .

But that means TK and not a Greece based airline is making the decisions, creating the jobs, building up the logistics business that always grows up around large airports, and having the information of where business is growing. The last is now information Greece outsources to TK, EK, and others.

If the hub were in Athens, instead of dropping flights, the Greek based airline would compete by discounting the transfer traffic. This is why high O&D hubs do not downsize as rapidly as other airports in downturns. A well run hub can ride out a drop in O&D traffic until the growth phase returns.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: klwright69
Posted 2012-05-17 00:04:35 and read 8136 times.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 42):
Quoting Ben175 (Reply 38):
I flew SIN-AUH in January and loads were quite low in J but almost full in Y. I guess yields must be quite bad too

AUH really seems to be struggling too. That is SQ and AF in a short amount of time that have left.

Yes, most here seem to only talk about ATH.

The dropping off AUH is also interesting.. The shows that EY is really stomping on the competition in AUH, leaving only room for the largest players. AF had not even been in AUH for very long.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-05-17 01:54:53 and read 7263 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41):
Thank you for the input. I look at the financial data, for air travel tends to follow the change in financial health, and I too cannot believe ATH isn't seeing a decline in traffic.

ATH passenger figures are still dropping (even after terrible figures of last year). Total passenger traffic dropped 11.1% Q1 2012 (international traffic dropped 15%). The figures for domestic traffic drop less, but the decline in Q1 2011 was already more than 20%....

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-05-17 03:18:59 and read 6650 times.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 43):
It is quick if you do not end up in a traffic jam which are more than common in Athens, especially once you are in the city. The metro is the better alternative, it is almost the same price (€8) and it takes roughly 35 minutes to reach Syntagma. Not to mention that the buses tend to be dirty and quite old. I took the bus three times to the airport, and two of those times I almost missed the flight because of traffic jams and blocked roads.

For Athens one would take the metro as it makes sense. For Piraeus the express bus is the way to go and Im never caught in traffic jams on that route. Buses are not in bad condition compared to the rest of Europe. They are efficient and clean. Ive taken the bus 8 times in the last 6 months its still a very good service IMHO.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
I would agree. If ATH had built a hub earlier and promoted it, they could have accelerated growth. Greece could use that level of jobs...

Again lets not dream . ATH would never have been an IST . The best it would be is a mini hub.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
But that means TK and not a Greece based airline is making the decisions, creating the jobs,

One might say that TK does create jobs for Greeks as do any airline by means of employment for check in staff,baggage handlers,ticket office,catering etc....

In such an economic crisis ATH is weathering the storm quite well considering. All the major main players are still there.

Quoting LJ (Reply 46):
ATH passenger figures are still dropping (even after terrible figures of last year). Total passenger traffic dropped 11.1% Q1 2012 (international traffic dropped 15%). The figures for domestic traffic drop less, but the decline in Q1 2011 was already more than 20%....

Q1 is always historically a quiet period. Yes it may be quieter than usual but the real figures will be for June to Spetember where the busy tourist season starts. If that falls flat on its face then it will be more worrying.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-05-17 03:55:10 and read 6476 times.

Delta is seasonal now to Athens. No us carrier is gonna fly to Athens year round I don't think

United has canceled its daily 767-400 flights this summer that is alot of seats to loose but probably great for deltas now seasonal service out of jfk. I hope united will return eventually and at least one us airline can go year round but I'm thinking that might be a while but I hope delta can fly daily year round again.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2012-05-17 04:28:39 and read 6356 times.

Not surprising that ATH Pax numbers are in freefall. Seemingly, the main thing that is driving demand currently are Greeks departing the country and EU politicians and bureaucrats coming and going over and over.

Tourism is struggling with all the protests and negative reporting this year and there is very little business demand to make routes viable.

As has been said, ATH is a ULCC paradise in these conditions but many others will struggle to make it work.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-05-17 04:40:26 and read 6290 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 48):
Delta is seasonal now to Athens. No us carrier is gonna fly to Athens year round I don't think
Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 49):
Seemingly, the main thing that is driving demand currently are Greeks departing the country and EU politicians and bureaucrats coming and going over and over.

There is still premium traffic demand intra EU J class cabins to and from ATH . People think the whole country has shut down which is not true. There are plenty of business professionals flying in and out of Greece.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 49):
As has been said, ATH is a ULCC paradise in these conditions but many others will struggle to make it work.

What percentage of LCC v NON LCC traffic get you to that conclusion ?

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2012-05-17 05:07:04 and read 6193 times.

Traffic stats point to the summer remaining somewhat strong, but off peak showing significant weakness


2012 Jan - Mar

Athens -11.2% -10.6% -11.2%

2011 Jan - Dec

Athens -14.7% -16.5% -16.1% -2.6% -0.9% 1.9% -0.3% -3.0% -2.1% -8.4% -14.5% -10.4%

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2012-05-17 05:35:18 and read 6113 times.

OA260, the numbers say it all.

Carriers pulling out is a sign of market weakness, which usually relates more to viable yields than anything else. That best source of viable yields is generated by premium traffic. In a tourism reliant economy like Greece, the rise if LCC traffic is becoming ever more important. Without a solid business base, legacy carriers will find it increasingly more challenging to sustain service on many routes.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2012-05-17 07:15:11 and read 5926 times.

For established carriers like SQ, pulling out is a sign of long term market weakness, that wont be recovered quickly.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-05-17 08:40:50 and read 5786 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 46):
Total passenger traffic dropped 11.1% Q1 2012 (international traffic dropped 15%). The figures for domestic traffic drop less, but the decline in Q1 2011 was already more than 20%....

Thank you for the numbers. That is very interesting.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 47):
ATH would never have been an IST .

Why not? With the huge flow of tourist traffic, a large Greece based airline has a nice start. It would be *easy* to sell connecting tickets with an overnight stay in ATH (pre-crisis, that is); we'll see a return to those conditions (when?).

Where ATH fell short is:
1. Investment environment. Too much underground economy to help with setting up a large hub.
2. Transportation to the airport. The political infighting and blocks to the rail system put a black eye on the system.
3. No 'vision.' Greece has historically been home to some large shipping lines. Usually those people see the opportunity for a hub. I wonder what political interference stopped the airlines.
4. Strong alliance participation. (Obviously TK/IST did this right.)

I see no reason ATH couldn't become an IST. Today Athens is connected to 94 cities versus IST's 185. The only alliance I see ATH joining would be OW as *A and Skyteam have been pretty well spoken for in the region. But they could use that to grow... Which airline? I don't know. When? Not until Greek accounting becomes more 'world class' and their tax system less uncertain. It will take decades (hence, why wasn't it done earlier?)

As to transportation, people do not like to switch seats on trains. I'm shocked to the level (one of my cousin's does urban planning for mass transit as a carrier and the planning 'rules of thumb' fascinate me).

Quoting OA260 (Reply 47):
One might say that TK does create jobs for Greeks as do any airline by means of employment for check in staff,baggage handlers,ticket office,catering etc....

   If Greece had the hub it would move all those jobs handling connecting traffic and not just O&D.    There is a reason Dubai, Singapore, and other cities have enabled their home hub airlines; hosting a hub creates jobs. It creates connections. For example, a Greek businessperson connecting through IST will meet people to aid their business. Since the hub is IST based, that is most likely a IST based business that will benefit too. Hubs naturally draw business to the host (unless the hubbing airline gouges due to a monopoly on too many routes...).

Greece must change their policies to grow. Setting up a more business friendly airport/airline policy to attract a hub airline would help.


Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-05-17 09:46:50 and read 5691 times.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 52):
Carriers pulling out is a sign of market weakness, which usually relates more to viable yields than anything else. That best source of viable yields is generated by premium traffic.

Yet why are some airlines increasing flights and capacity then and new routes?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54):
Why not? With the huge flow of tourist traffic, a large Greece based airline has a nice start. It would be *easy* to sell connecting tickets with an overnight stay in ATH (pre-crisis, that is); we'll see a return to those conditions (when?).

Wasnt going to happen. Ive followed Greek aviation for over two decades and worked in it . ATH was only ever viable as a hub when the state picked up the losses.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54):
2. Transportation to the airport. The political infighting and blocks to the rail system put a black eye on the system.

They have a rail system between ATH and downtown.

http://www.aia.gr/UserFiles/Image/ma...144426_080647_public_transport.jpg

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54):
Setting up a more business friendly airport/airline policy to attract a hub airline would help.

Athens International Airport introduces significant incentives for airlines aiming to support summer traffic 2012

http://www.aia.gr/entry.asp?pageid=7...ablepageid=12&langid=2&entryID=399

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: 6thfreedom
Posted 2012-05-17 19:38:39 and read 5292 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54):
Why not? With the huge flow of tourist traffic, a large Greece based airline has a nice start. It would be *easy* to sell connecting tickets with an overnight stay in ATH (pre-crisis, that is); we'll see a return to those conditions (when?).

the other reason is the balance of OD market.
with a population at least 8 times that of Greece, Turkey has the ability to draw more on the OD market, which my it's nature is higher yield.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: FlyboyOz
Posted 2012-05-19 23:26:23 and read 4683 times.

Don't worry.... I'm waiting for Jetstar to fly to Athen soon - maybe next year 2013 or 2014.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2012-05-19 23:36:35 and read 4654 times.

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 57):
Don't worry.... I'm waiting for Jetstar to fly to Athen soon - maybe next year 2013 or 2014.

Don't hold your breath on that one.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 55):
Yet why are some airlines increasing flights and capacity then and new routes?

If you read what was stated, there may well be some routes that still have demand, but many others will continue to shift to a much weaker base, making them unviable. The less margin available will bring in LCC's at best, or no service at all on other sectors.

It may even get much worse at the current rate which will make things even messier.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: huaiwei
Posted 2012-05-20 03:06:44 and read 4400 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 53):
For established carriers like SQ, pulling out is a sign of long term market weakness, that wont be recovered quickly.

There is a long string of SQ pullouts over the years, whether in the midst of a global financial crisis or not. I won't use this event alone to make prophetic conclusions about long term market prospects.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 58):
Don't hold your breath on that one.

Agreed. If there is such a market, Scoot will get there first.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-05-20 03:24:49 and read 4336 times.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 58):
If you read what was stated, there may well be some routes that still have demand, but many others will continue to shift to a much weaker base, making them unviable. The less margin available will bring in LCC's at best, or no service at all on other sectors.

And what Im saying is that its far from the doom and gloom some people project. The country doesnt close down because of an economic crisis. Yes routes will get axed and routes will get added but its by far a LCC base far from it . Some routes are exceeding expectations and in J class too . As long as ATH has links by the likes of TK LH LX OS BA A3 AF KL EY EK QR its by far LCC and considering the climate ATH have done well to keep all these carriers .

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: bennett123
Posted 2012-05-20 03:29:49 and read 4320 times.

IMO, we will know a lot more about the prospects for ATH, and Greece more generally following the elections on June 17th.

If they are inconclusive again, do they just call another election.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2012-05-20 03:29:52 and read 4323 times.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 59):
There is a long string of SQ pullouts over the years, whether in the midst of a global financial crisis or not. I won't use this event alone to make prophetic conclusions about long term market prospects.

I agree.

The signal is that they do not see a turn around anytime soon, but just how long that viewpoint is is not quite clear. In these conditions, being cautious on such routes is likely a wise move.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-05-20 07:54:56 and read 3981 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 55):
They have a rail system between ATH and downtown.

Not to the degree it should have been by now. My point is expand or be overcome by events.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: TIA
Posted 2012-05-20 16:21:40 and read 3632 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 39):
I can't imagine how there hasn't been a significant drop in passenger numbers at Athens.

ATH numbers by month:
http://www.hochtief-airport.com/hta_en/200.jhtml

Quoting OA260 (Reply 47):
for June to Spetember where the busy tourist season starts.

I have been going to ATH about once a year or so for quite some time. But the last time I went there it was in Feb last year and I have no near term plans to go back. I am not necessarily worried about protesters, but I'm worried that I may get stuck due to a random strike or if some sort of disturbance affect my flight. Another reason why I'm not rushing to go back has to do with the fact that my last two times there (Dec 2010, Feb 2011), I found the experience quite depressing. I was used to going to ATH and seeing people in cafes and cheerful and carefree and enjoying life in general. And this time people just seemed sad. Vitality was missing from the experience. Not their fault for not being in the same mood as before given the circumstances, but unfortunately that meant that ATH had lost some of the appeal for me.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 63):

Not to the degree it should have been by now. My point is expand or be overcome by events.

No, not really. ATH has light rail connections to many points. No need for more expensive and inefficient light rail at the moment. The bus system more than covers the needs of the people. A more extensive rail system would not increase the numbers at ATH or bring more tourists in. It would just put the govt in even more unnecessary debt.

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-05-20 21:54:43 and read 3438 times.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 56):
he other reason is the balance of OD market.
with a population at least 8 times that of Greece, Turkey has the ability to draw more on the OD market, which my it's nature is higher yield.

I should have gone to the CIA factbook before posting. Game set and match. You make a great point. ~80 million to ~11 million is a HUGE gap to cover.

Quoting TIA (Reply 64):
The bus system more than covers the needs of the people.

You sound like my best friend.   He is much more pro-bus than I.    Let's just say I've had this discussion before on other cities. However, many tourists like the convenience of rail. In particular those from Japan, NYC, London (however, they seem better with buses), and a few other areas. I think if the rail was done 'efficiently enough' it would have a ROI.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-05-21 09:03:52 and read 2975 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
It was never a contender to IST which cant be compared and also has a totally different set up/market.

For the record, going back and until the 1980s, Athens was a viable Mediterranean transfer hub.

In comparison, Istanbul was nothing, simply a O&D spoke, and a rather meager one at that. There was no Gulf or strong Arab carriers to worry about, the East Bloc ruled out much of Europe, and folks like Alitalia were focused on their domestic O&D, not broad transfer traffic.
OA and Athens was a pretty good transfer option at the time. I even knew the Turkey manager for OA at the time, and they did very good business selling Europe and North America connections from IST those days.

What you see today in IST and TK is a pretty recent development. Its was not actually even until 1989-1990 that THY which had hired in experts from SAS started to design transfer viable schedules. But the frequency, and terminal facilities back them made it less then appealing except for the bargain basement travelers. Also keep in mind TK barely had 20-30 planes for much of the 1980s, and things like its first A310 and long-haul routes did not come till the late 80s and 90s also, while OA had been running a inter-continental network for ages.

It was not until the late 90s TK became a force on its own, much thanks to outside factors such as the huge Turkish economic growth, friendly government policies, and a new terminal complex that opened in 2000.


Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54):
Why not? With the huge flow of tourist traffic, a large Greece based airline has a nice start. It would be *easy* to sell connecting tickets with an overnight stay in ATH (pre-crisis, that is); we'll see a return to those conditions (when?).

Greece and OA had a chance. They had a semblance of a decent hub network, however the world ran circles around them forming new airlines, airports, fleets, and products while they fell behind with their own issues.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54):
I see no reason ATH couldn't become an IST.

Not today. Numbers are not there unless you want to rely on the lowest possible yielding mass tourist transfer traffic in an already crowded field.

At the end of the day also, the Greek home market is small compared to Turkey. We are not in 1950 when the countries were on par in terms of economies.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 56):
the other reason is the balance of OD market.
with a population at least 8 times that of Greece, Turkey has the ability to draw more on the OD market, which my it's nature is higher yield.

  . Population of Istanbul alone is larger than that of all of Greece. And then comes all the economic factors....

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-05-21 09:45:08 and read 2890 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 66):
Greece and OA had a chance. They had a semblance of a decent hub network, however the world ran circles around them forming new airlines, airports, fleets, and products while they fell behind with their own issues.

Thank you for your perspective. It would be tougher today with TK/EK/QR/EY and I would suspect (one day) better Indian hubbing. As you put it, it is no longer the 1950s. Greece had a 'window of opportunity' that has come and gone. They could start something, but it would take 30+ years and that is a long time to run an airline well...

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: peanuts
Posted 2012-05-21 10:18:22 and read 2825 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 66):

  

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 67):
Greece had a 'window of opportunity' that has come and gone.

  

We know TK/IST/Turkey and OA/ATH/Greece are different markets. That doesn't take away the lack of vision component into all of this. OA/ATH/Greece could have been way more than they are today...

OA/ATH/Greece is a classic example of where the sum of all three parts could have been way more than 3, in this case.

And yes, it's mostly on the Greek governments' shoulders...

[Edited 2012-05-21 10:19:12]

Topic: RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi
Username: TIA
Posted 2012-05-21 13:37:15 and read 2693 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 65):
You sound like my best friend. He is much more pro-bus than I.

The train is more comfortable and faster. No question about that. But also it's significantly more expensive and I don't think that any of ATH troubles today are because of lack of a more extensive rail system. And at this point, expanind their rail system is a luxury that Greece can neither afford, nor need.


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