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Topic: Could UA or DL Order The A380?
Username: olddominion727
Posted 2012-06-17 16:48:34 and read 15074 times.

I was curious to know would UA or DL consider the A380 for specific high density routes like NYC-TLV, HNL-TYO, SEL-NYC, NYC-LON, NYC-TYO? NYC/SFO/WAS-FRA or MIA-SAO, MAD-MIA? domestically: SFO/LAX-ORD/IAH/WAS, LAS-ATL, DEN-WAS, LAX-ATL, MSP-CHI, CHI-NYC?... Would these routes not do well with a a few A380's? SFO-ORD 13 n/s flights, ATL-LAX 10 n/s flights...just curious... This would free-up the equipment for a new station, additional frequency elsewhere, or continue to consolidate their fleet in other areas... Just a thought. Please don't blast me if you think it's a stupid question.

Topic: Could UA or DL Order The A380?
Username: vctony
Posted 2012-06-17 16:53:32 and read 15054 times.

I don't believe so. They may look at some 748s if the price is right but I can't see either with A380s. Way too much airplane for either's route structure.

Topic: Could UA or DL Order The A380?
Username: olddominion727
Posted 2012-06-17 16:57:20 and read 14974 times.

Quoting vctony (Reply 1):

I actually agree, but if you could cut SFO-ORD from 13 flights to 8-9 with a few 380's, that would free-up ground-crew, airport personnel, gates, landing fees. LESS CONGESTION etc. trying to play devil's advocate here

Topic: Could UA or DL Order The A380?
Username: Boeing773ER
Posted 2012-06-17 16:58:26 and read 14942 times.

No, this is not going to happen. For many reasons

United: UA will not take A380's because they already have replacements lined up to take care of the 747-400 replacement. The A350s and B787s will take care of their 747-400 routes.

Delta: DL won't take any new widebody aircraft for awhile. Right now all of their focus are getting narrowbody replacements into their fleet. In the future (10-15 years they may look at them, but not right now)

Bottom line: there is very little demand for the US carriers to take A380's. The only reason why NW and UA bought them back in the 80s/90s was for the range they provided, since the 777 wasn't around yet.

Topic: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: chrisair
Posted 2012-06-17 17:03:34 and read 14876 times.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 2):
but if you could cut SFO-ORD from 13 flights to 8-9 with a few 380's.

Not. Going. To. Happen. Ever.

[Edited 2012-06-17 17:25:33 by srbmod]

Topic: Could UA or DL Order The A380?
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-06-17 17:06:08 and read 14817 times.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
or MIA-SAO, MAD-MIA?

Well neither UA nor DL woudl fly that.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
SFO/LAX-ORD/IAH/WAS, LAS-ATL, DEN-WAS, LAX-ATL, MSP-CHI, CHI-NYC?..

Absolutely not!!! Especially on competitive routes. Business travelers like frequency. Cancel three A320s and put in an A380 would be death for that airline on that particular route.

There was some possibility that the old-NW could have ordered say 5 of them. DTW-AMS and DTW-NRT-MNL wwould have been the only routes though.

Topic: Could UA or DL Order The A380?
Username: as739x
Posted 2012-06-17 17:06:42 and read 14817 times.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 2):

Passengers want frequency. The American public and business have come accustom to this and it will not change till all major airports are slot restricted.

Topic: Could UA or DL Order The A380?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-06-17 17:17:41 and read 14684 times.

Quoting vctony (Reply 1):
I don't believe so. They may look at some 748s if the price is right but I can't see either with A380s. Way too much airplane for either's route structure.

I see DL ordering these, but not for another 10 or 15 years. That's the thing, the 747 routes right now are usually full, and I don't think the 77L could take over the amount.

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 3):
DL won't take any new widebody aircraft for awhile. Right now all of their focus are getting narrowbody replacements into their fleet. In the future (10-15 years they may look at them, but not right now)

Like I said, they won't need them for a while.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-06-17 17:28:23 and read 14578 times.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 2):

I actually agree, but if you could cut SFO-ORD from 13 flights to 8-9 with a few 380's, that would free-up ground-crew, airport personnel, gates, landing fees. LESS CONGESTION etc. trying to play devil's advocate here
UA could do that already, and to some point used to route widebodies on domestic routes. In the 1990s, DC10s and 747-200s were flying domestic hub to hub routes. Eventually the DC10s were replaced with 14 2-class 767-300s and 6 2-class 777s. They were used for Hawaii and hub to hub. However UA is shifting towards smaller airplanes for domestic routes.

One reason why we are less likely to see widebodies for domestic routes is that the 737NG and A320 are so efficient and becoming more efficient with new derivatives. The 767-300 2-class has 244 seats versus 173 for the 737-900ER. When looking at the numbers, the 737-900 actually beats the 767 on a CASM basis on domestic routes. If UA had the A321, it would beat the 767 as well. That's why 767s are being converted to long haul use.

I don't know what the numbers on an A380 would be as I am not a PianoX user, but I somewhat doubt it would look that good compared to the narrowbodies on routes under 2,000 miles. The A320 and 737NG are the most popular aircraft because for the bulk of markets, actually are the most efficient because of their lightweight design compared to the larger widebodies. When 777s, 747s, A340s, and A380s are used on short haul markets, their numbers do not come out that well. Cargo on domestic routes can easily be carried on revenue flights and is very low yielding (outside of express cargo and Alaska).

In the US widebodies aren't needed on domestic routes to reduce congestion as much as they are in other markets because slots aren't heavily restricted at most airports. Passengers prefer frequency and when slots get constrained, regional routes are more likely to be sacrificed.

Another reason is 5pm departures between NYC and CHI or LAX and SFO could fill a widebody, but what is the airline going to do with it the rest of the day? There's no need for a widebody on a 10am or 9pm departure. A380s kill flexibility. Airlines in the US run on razor tight margins, so flexibility is essential. They manage peak departure times with fares to push passengers into less desirable times rather than raise capacity during peak rush hours.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
Please don't blast me if you think it's a stupid question.

It is a legitimate question. I think A380s at DL and UA has been well covered in the past, but I don't think anyone has proposed domestic use for widebodies in a thread.

[Edited 2012-06-17 17:29:40]

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: srbmod
Posted 2012-06-17 17:42:36 and read 14486 times.

Quoting as739x (Reply 6):

Passengers want frequency. The American public and business have come accustom to this and it will not change till all major airports are slot restricted.

If there was such a need for this sort of service, airlines in the US would have been operating the 747-400D years ago. I think the largest dedicated domestic widebody (not a international widebody operating on a domestic leg) in the US in recent years was Delta's 767-400ERs (They did operate them to some cities in South America, but they were predominantly domestic a/c.) which seated 287 passengers. Delta was flying them on their busiest routes like ATL-LAX, ATL-LAS, ATL-FLL, ATL-MCO, ATL-HNL (After getting the crew rest matter settled; prior to that, they operated ATL-LAX-HNL.), ATL-SFO, ATL-MIA, ATL-TPA, and ATL-LGA (I'm sure I missed some routes.).

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: rjm777ual
Posted 2012-06-17 20:05:16 and read 13992 times.

But the 787 and a350 will also have domestic routes too, IAH-SFO etc...

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: as739x
Posted 2012-06-17 20:47:43 and read 13831 times.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 9):

Completely agree. Between frequency's, etc there this is no reason for 747's and A380's operating multiple flights between hubs.

Quoting rjm777ual (Reply 10):
But the 787 and a350 will also have domestic routes too, IAH-SFO etc...

They will find their fit on certain flights (times). But the question of the A380, it won't happen. And with the 787/A350, I think they'll just fill in where 767's are these days. The A350 will be used internationally mainly. ex UA replacing 747's with them.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: sharktail
Posted 2012-06-17 20:54:20 and read 13779 times.

I don't think they will order them in the next 5 years. But if other airlines start competing with these planes on the trunk routes for UA and DL which causes a significant cost and revenue advantage they will have to reconsider. As long as no Japanese airline orders it, I think UA and DL will wait. By 2020 though, they may be forced to reconsider.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: CompensateMe
Posted 2012-06-17 20:55:34 and read 13779 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 8):
In the 1990s, DC10s and 747-200s were flying domestic hub to hub routes.

In the 2000s, UA operated its two-cabin 763 on many non-hub to hub routings. e.g. ORD-DTW, LAS, MCO, BWI, etc.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-06-17 21:32:36 and read 13645 times.

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 3):
Bottom line: there is very little demand for the US carriers to take A380's. The only reason why NW and UA bought them back in the 80s/90s was for the range they provided, since the 777 wasn't around yet.

When did NW and/or UA order A380s in the 80s/90s?

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: Boeing773ER
Posted 2012-06-17 21:34:32 and read 13627 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 14):
When did NW and/or UA order A380s in the 80s/90s?

Meant to say the 747-400s

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-06-17 21:40:11 and read 13582 times.

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 15):

Actually, DL almost ordered 747-400s instead of MD-11s, but they could be three of the trijets for the price of two 747s.



It's interesting to think how much different DL's fleet makeup might be if they had kept the original 747s in the 70s and kept them long enough to use them on the original ATL-LGW and ATL-FRA routes.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: Asiaflyer
Posted 2012-06-17 23:54:11 and read 12851 times.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 4):
Not. Going. To. Happen. Ever.

I wish we could pull up this thread 5-8 years down the road.  

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: boilerla
Posted 2012-06-18 00:22:50 and read 12631 times.

This again? How many times are people going to bring this up?

First, the logistical issues and financial issues. Why would either of the world's largest airlines operate an A380 when they have 7 hubs to serve? Business fliers like frequency, but they like nonstop even more. Sure, you can fill up an A380 by routing all the passengers through ORD or IAH, but that won't make nearly as much money as flying those passengers directly from LAX, SFO, DEN, IAH, ORD, EWR, IAD or even CLE.

Bottom line, UA can have an A380 85% full of junk S and T fares, or they can have an A350 90% full of W fares. They like making money, and an A380 doesn't get them there.

Second, UA publicly stated they only want to operate 2 widebody types. They have 50 widebodies on order and 50 more options. With a small top-off order, that's enough to replace every 747, 767, and 777 in the fleet.

Finally, DL says they want to limit capital expenditures in the next couple of years to focus on debt reduction. They deferred deliveries of the 787s and are buying used MD90s. Does that sound like an airline that wants to spend a couple billion on a fleet of A380s?

Quoting rjm777ual (Reply 10):

But the 787 and a350 will also have domestic routes too, IAH-SFO etc...

Except for repositioning flights (and some training flights in the beginning), the 787 and A350 will not fly scheduled domestic routes. All the ghetto 767s are being pulled from domestic flights and refitted for international use, leaving just a couple of domestic-configured 777s that will likely be retired soon.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2012-06-18 04:34:53 and read 10835 times.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 2):
I actually agree, but if you could cut SFO-ORD from 13 flights to 8-9 with a few 380's, that would free-up ground-crew, airport personnel, gates, landing fees. LESS CONGESTION etc. trying to play devil's advocate here

It would not happen. As discussed on here many times before, people prefer convenience and frequency. The A380 will do both, be inconvenient (for connections making longer connecting times because of less frequency) and will reduce frequency that people want.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
I see DL ordering these, but not for another 10 or 15 years. That's the thing, the 747 routes right now are usually full, and I don't think the 77L could take over the amount.

They could order B748i, A350, B77W or B77X. It does not necessarily have to be an A380. 10-15 years is a long time, by then we'll have a few more wing cracks and blown engines, and even the A380 will be considered outdated....

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: mikey72
Posted 2012-06-18 04:42:25 and read 10719 times.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 18):
Business fliers like frequency, but they like nonstop even more

  

Out of interest if an American carrier was going to send one anywhere it would be across the Pacific ?

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-06-18 04:48:47 and read 10641 times.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
domestically: SFO/LAX-ORD/IAH/WAS, LAS-ATL, DEN-WAS, LAX-ATL, MSP-CHI, CHI-NYC?... Would these routes not do well with a a few A380's? SFO-ORD 13 n/s flights, ATL-LAX 10 n/s flights...just curious...

Nobody, including Airbus, is promoting the A380 for relatively short flights like those - 1,700-1,800 nm max. You need at least 3,000 nm before the A380 starts to make economic sense.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: einsteinboricua
Posted 2012-06-18 05:03:34 and read 10451 times.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 18):
This again? How many times are people going to bring this up?

First, the logistical issues and financial issues. Why would either of the world's largest airlines operate an A380 when they have 7 hubs to serve? Business fliers like frequency, but they like nonstop even more. Sure, you can fill up an A380 by routing all the passengers through ORD or IAH, but that won't make nearly as much money as flying those passengers directly from LAX, SFO, DEN, IAH, ORD, EWR, IAD or even CLE.

Bottom line, UA can have an A380 85% full of junk S and T fares, or they can have an A350 90% full of W fares. They like making money, and an A380 doesn't get them there.

Second, UA publicly stated they only want to operate 2 widebody types. They have 50 widebodies on order and 50 more options. With a small top-off order, that's enough to replace every 747, 767, and 777 in the fleet.

Finally, DL says they want to limit capital expenditures in the next couple of years to focus on debt reduction. They deferred deliveries of the 787s and are buying used MD90s. Does that sound like an airline that wants to spend a couple billion on a fleet of A380s?

Geez, calm down. The OP brought another topic on hand: use of A380s domestically. While UA and DL will not be ordering any more widebodies in the near future, we're just speculating on the next decade and whether they might pick up a couple if conditions arise. DL is paying down debt. I don't know but that sounds like an airline that's getting ready for a more aggressive strategy in the long run. it's like saving up for a dream vacation: it's not gonna be something from one day to the next, but I think there might be something going on up there for the next decade.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-06-18 05:08:31 and read 10362 times.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 9):
were predominantly domestic a/c.) which seated 287 passengers. Delta was flying them on their busiest routes like ATL-LAX, ATL-LAS, ATL-FLL, ATL-MCO, ATL-HNL (After getting the crew rest matter settled; prior to that, they operated ATL-LAX-HNL.), ATL-SFO, ATL-MIA, ATL-TPA, and ATL-LGA (I'm sure I missed some routes.).

I have had DL 764's SLC-SFO-HNL-SLC, and LAX-HNL-LAX, great F at the time they were really new to the fleet and it was the first time I had played video games on an aircraft with the IFE.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: ual777uk
Posted 2012-06-18 05:23:14 and read 10178 times.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 20):
Out of interest if an American carrier was going to send one anywhere it would be across the Pacific ?

Pretty much thats a given. The only routes you would see UA send a 380 over the atlantic would be into FRA but lets not kid ourself there is no way UA or for that matter DL will get the 380. Too muach aircraft for airlines with too many large hubs. Just not going to happen IMHO. At best we might see a 748i down the road, but thats a pipe dream in itself unless Boeing practically gives them away.

I bet you are drooling at the thought of when BA starts rolling them out. Certainly will be one of the better colour schemes out there.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: bmacleod
Posted 2012-06-18 06:09:07 and read 9833 times.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 24):
I bet you are drooling at the thought of when BA starts rolling them out. Certainly will be one of the better colour schemes out there.

With the UK mired in recession with no recovery on immediate horizon, it'll be interesting to see how BA will be able to pay for their A380s, let alone fill them up....

But I'd have to agree with above postings there really isn't any way for either UA or DL to fit the A380 into their network in the foreseeable future...maybe in 5-8 years things could change...

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: Chicagoflight
Posted 2012-06-18 06:09:35 and read 9916 times.

I was a flight attendant for United from 1997 to 2002 and I remember working many widebody domestic flights.

Back in the day we (United) used to fly DC-10s from ORD to DTW, CLE, LAS, and PHX. In fact, we used to do a hot meal service for over 200 people on DC-10s between ORD and CLE; talk about hectic! It was especially dicey with the lower galley DC-10s. We had those meal carts heating up before pushback ! The senior mamas hated this trip so it was always staffed with FAs right out of training. Talk about a cluster.... haha but I digress....

Other domestic widebody routes I remember working were 777s and 747s between ORD-DEN-LAX/SFO, ORD-SFO, ORD-LAX, ORD-IAD.

The 767s were used a lot on Trans-Con BOS-LAX/SFO, JFK-LAX/SFO, IAD-LAX/SFO.

So, the widespread use of widebodies on domestic routes is not unprecedented. Will it ever happen to this extent ever again, especially with the advent of extremely efficient single-aisle aircraft ? Not likely. But we can hope.

[Edited 2012-06-18 06:10:47]

[Edited 2012-06-18 06:18:46]

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: mikey72
Posted 2012-06-18 06:37:17 and read 9544 times.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 24):
I bet you are drooling at the thought of when BA starts rolling them out. Certainly will be one of the better colour schemes out there.

Well only in as much as it will assist with the bottom line of the airline etc

Now on the other hand......I would have been drooling over a 748i in BA livery.

(anyway they havn't got the A380 yet...anymore bombshells come out of Europe and they might get put back AGAIN)

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: canyonblue17
Posted 2012-06-18 08:46:24 and read 8077 times.

I'm thinking WN could use a few domestically. Would luv to see 750 seats and open seating. "Now boarding Group Q 1 to 30 please."

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: PW100
Posted 2012-06-18 08:54:11 and read 7951 times.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 25):
With the UK mired in recession with no recovery on immediate horizon, it'll be interesting to see how BA will be able to pay for their A380s, let alone fill them up....

Interestingly, BA doesn't seem to have (m)any problems getting finance in place for their 77W. Many even consider another order beyond the currently planned 8, a given. List price for a 77W these days closes in at $300M.

$375M for an airplane with 60-70% more payload capability should not be a problem at all.

Also, BA doesn't seem to have (m)any problems fillling up their 50+ strong fleet of 744. If a 744 can be operated porfitably, then it shouldn't be very difficult to operate the A380 profitably either, as the A380 trip cost is not that much more than that of a 744.

Rgds,
PW100

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: mikey72
Posted 2012-06-18 08:59:57 and read 7895 times.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 25):
it'll be interesting to see how BA will be able to pay for their A380s

Ring-fencing.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 25):
let alone fill them up....

Blimey, they've only got a handful coming !

Are you familiar with BA's route network ?

Any airline that can make a profit these days with 55 gas guzzling 744's online can quite easily and profitably absorb a handful of A380's. Especially if they are replacing said gas guzzlers.

No ?

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-06-18 09:01:04 and read 7866 times.

Quoting as739x (Reply 6):
Passengers want frequency. The American public and business have come accustom to this and it will not change

The public needs to learn that this business model maybe nice for the consumer, it is not good for airlines.

One of the many reasons why many carriers in the US have gone in chapter 11 is the lack on passengers on various frequencies.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-06-18 09:03:58 and read 7837 times.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 9):
ATL-LAX, ATL-LAS, ATL-FLL, ATL-MCO, ATL-HNL (After getting the crew rest matter settled; prior to that, they operated ATL-LAX-HNL.), ATL-SFO, ATL-MIA, ATL-TPA, and ATL-LGA (I'm sure I missed some routes.).

Hit most of them. Only one I don't see is ATL-SLC and SLC-KOA. PBI would see a 764 rotation during the summer months along with SJU.

DL's first international flight with the 764 was ATL-DUB. It was sold as all Y before they installed the cradle BE seats. Elites would get preferential seating in the front with everyone else being luck of the draw.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 23):
great F at the time they were really new to the fleet and it was the first time I had played video games on an aircraft with the IFE.

I always found those seats to be VERY uncomfortable. Pretty narrow compared to DL's other seats and the cabin always felt "crowded" at 36 F. DL's best F seats hands down were those on the 762s IMHO.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: FURUREFA
Posted 2012-06-18 09:21:04 and read 7587 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 32):
Quoting srbmod (Reply 9):
ATL-LAX, ATL-LAS, ATL-FLL, ATL-MCO, ATL-HNL (After getting the crew rest matter settled; prior to that, they operated ATL-LAX-HNL.), ATL-SFO, ATL-MIA, ATL-TPA, and ATL-LGA (I'm sure I missed some routes.).

Hit most of them. Only one I don't see is ATL-SLC and SLC-KOA. PBI would see a 764 rotation during the summer months along with SJU.

Also ATL-BOS.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-06-18 09:29:17 and read 7476 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 32):
DL's best F seats hands down were those on the 762s IMHO.

As originally configured, the 762s had 22F, but it was very cramped for F, so they removed a row and 16F was much better.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2012-06-18 09:44:05 and read 7247 times.

I stated all of this some months ago that the A380 was not then and NEVER would be suitable for UAL. I can't speak for Delta but I can SEE Boeing's Office from My Office window and if we were al that Hot to buy New Jombo Jets? With our EXTENSIVE experience with the 747 family?? (Also that the 747-8 Will Be a brand new Airforce 1 ) It would make NO sense gor us to EVER buy the A380. It might be a fine airplane (and on that I'll keep my opinion to myself) BUT!! there's NO demonstratd NEED for it by any USA Airline as oft yet. There are No facilities for it. Very few airports where it might find a home AND I still consider the airplane nothing more than a status symbol.
The A350 will do much better in USA service and I do Not doubt for one minute that THAT Airplanee might be a Hit in the USA Especially with USAir already flying the A330 along with Hawaiian and Delta.. But!! Again , That's IF the airplane is as GOOD as Advertized and Even Better if it get's a choice of engines rather than Just the Rolls. With GE locking up with Boeing?? Pratt and Whitney could field an engine based on their Already Robust core with the GTF and have one HELL of an engine.. Or replace the presnet core with the F135 core and Really go Big Hog for Years to come .. This will give airlines around the World an OPTION you CAN'T Get with BOEING. Especially were Airbus to build a Generic Pylon with the Engine and Nacelle to be Customer Options. That's Flexibility that Boeing Doesn't offer and I daresay WON'T!!
In future Sales it's going to be about what you HAVE TO offer and What are My Choices??Airbus can't offer THAT much in options right now because they Don't have Leading edge Airplanes to take Boeing on Head to Head, Wingtip to Wingtip.
The A330 is not even a match for and OLD 777-200A The A320 is not EVEN a match for the 737NG family and the A380?? PLease!! Airbus will need to Do what they're doing fielding the A350 with their ENTIRE product line. Get the A321 up tp snuff with the Discontinued and out of Production &%& and PRAY that Boeing doesn't Reonsider the Airplane

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: dfambro
Posted 2012-06-18 10:14:21 and read 6833 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 31):
Quoting as739x (Reply 6):Passengers want frequency. The American public and business have come accustom to this and it will not change

The public needs to learn that this business model maybe nice for the consumer, it is not good for airlines.One of the many reasons why many carriers in the US have gone in chapter 11 is the lack on passengers on various frequencies.

It's not the job of the consumer to worry about the airline's business model.

If, for example, UA were to roll their BOS-SFO morning departures, now about every ~2hrs, into one morning domestic 777 (or 380, for that matter), then there's pretty much nothing left to keep me from switching to VX's better product. I already defect from UA to VX for the overnights, were schedule is not really an issue, because of better product. Frequency is UA's competitive advantage during the day.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-06-18 10:21:44 and read 6720 times.

Quoting as739x (Reply 6):
Passengers want frequency. The American public and business have come accustom to this and it will not change till all major airports are slot restricted.

Perhaps not slot restricted, but when adding more frequencies with narrowbodies just won't make sense.

If you think about the days of regulation, AA, UA, TW, and CO all flew ORD-LAX. Air travel was growing, but airlines couldn't add flights when it felt like it. Hence, the 747, DC-10, and L-1011 flying domestic routes.

With AA, UA, NK, and VX flying out of ORD, B6 flying ORD-LGB, WN flying MDW-LAX, as well as service to SNA, you have more carriers flying the Chicago-Los Angeles route from more airports.

For UA and AA to start flying widebodies will require the traffic volume to get to the point that either ORD or LAX is slot restricted, or gate space becomes so limited that rather than add another narrowbody to the schedule, it make more sense to swap out a narrowbody for a widebody.

AA has a couple of mainline gates at ORD that currently have no jet bridge. So, AA can easily add 16 to 20 mainline departures, just by installing 2 jet bridges.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-06-18 10:24:21 and read 6685 times.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 37):

It's not the job of the consumer to worry about the airline's business model.

I think they should. The average consumer wants to have 30+ flights a day to their favorite destination, just for their convenience, without realizing what that does to the airline and its future. There is no airline, operating, that could sustain that kind of operation, when multiplied by 200+ destinations.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: EPA001
Posted 2012-06-18 11:03:21 and read 6266 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 31):
The public needs to learn that this business model maybe nice for the consumer, it is not good for airlines.

One of the many reasons why many carriers in the US have gone in chapter 11 is the lack on passengers on various frequencies.

So true, so true. And if are talking A380's, what kind of frequency would really "suffer" if UA, or any other US airline, was to buy an A380.

Then again, it has taken a US airline a very long time to order B77W's (AA has done so just recently). So maybe for long haul trunk routes that is as far as it (for now) will go with US airlines.   But of course there are still some B744's out there at several US airlines I guess. Though I believe not that many.  

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: dfambro
Posted 2012-06-18 11:30:55 and read 5907 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 39):
Quoting dfambro (Reply 37):
It's not the job of the consumer to worry about the airline's business model.

I think they should. The average consumer wants to have 30+ flights a day to their favorite destination, just for their convenience, without realizing what that does to the airline and its future. There is no airline, operating, that could sustain that kind of operation, when multiplied by 200+ destinations.


Consumers want a lot of things that they don't get. A business's job is to figure out a business model that works while maximizing satisfaction of consumer wants in pursuit of maximized corporate profit. If the business can't turn a profit, it's the business that screwed up, not the consumer.

Think about this way. I don't actually want a BOS-SFO flight every two hours. I want there to be a BOS-SFO flight every 10 minutes, with ample cheap last minute seats available, so I can just go to the airport whenever I want without having to worry about advance booking. When it comes to the subway trip across town, my wish like that is actually met by the subway system! With BOS-SFO by air, the best thing on offer is every two hours, with advanced booking required.

If airlines are complaining that customers are too demanding, then they are just whinging and feeling sorry for themselves.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-06-18 12:30:50 and read 5325 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 31):
Quoting as739x (Reply 6):
Passengers want frequency. The American public and business have come accustom to this and it will not change

The public needs to learn that this business model maybe nice for the consumer, it is not good for airlines.

One of the many reasons why many carriers in the US have gone in chapter 11 is the lack on passengers on various frequencies.

I’d take a look at this article before making sweeping statements like that :

http://www.oliverwyman.com/pdf_files...2011_Airline_Economic_Analysis.pdf

I agree frequency is a factor, but I don’t think it is a reason for Ch 11. In my opinion, it has nothing to do with the public learning what is acceptable or not. It is about how the airlines manage their cost and inventory. What is good for the airlines are higher fares and more revenue, but that is not what the public wants. Airlines have to figure out how to be profitable in the environment.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 41):


Consumers want a lot of things that they don't get. A business's job is to figure out a business model that works while maximizing satisfaction of consumer wants in pursuit of maximized corporate profit. If the business can't turn a profit, it's the business that screwed up, not the consumer.

More frequencies has multiple benefits. First off, it increases RASM. With the way fare structures work, more popular flights typically cost more. People prefer an 8am departure over a 6am departure in general, but the fare structures usually result in the 8am departure being more expensive, which is more revenue. However having over capacity lowers RASM. The 8am ORD-EWR departure may be the most popular and justifies a bigger plane, but what are you going to do with that plane when it gets to EWR? There’s no big draw for a 12 noon departure back to ORD, so either you have killed RASM by having over capacity, utilize an international plane on a domestic route, or let the plane sit. So while RASM might be high for the 8am departure, what are you going to do with the plane until the 6pm departure rush?

Multiple frequencies typically increases CASM. Smaller planes typically have higher CASM (although widebodies on short routes don’t always have lower CASM).

The difference in CASM and RASM is profit, so airlines try to optimize this.

Topic: RE: Could UA Or DL Order The A380?
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2012-06-18 14:18:22 and read 4313 times.

In short, technically speaking, to literally answer your thread title, if they want to order them, yes Airbus will accept their order and build them!  
Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 3):
United: UA will not take A380's because they already have replacements lined up to take care of the 747-400 replacement. The A350s and B787s will take care of their 747-400 routes.

Delta: DL won't take any new widebody aircraft for awhile. Right now all of their focus are getting narrowbody replacements into their fleet. In the future (10-15 years they may look at them, but not right now)

Correct, when that time has come, DL may order the A380 assuming a few factors:
1. that they remain a leader in the US airline industry as they are right now
2. that the economy becomes again more solid than it is right now
3. that they keep consolidating around a few large hubs (ATL, DTW, JFK, AMS, NRT) rather than expanding towards more secondary hubs and focus cities, and
4. that the A380 does prove itself to be more economical than the 748I (which is likely but we may still want to wait and see how Airbus can improve their beast and what the 748I really has under the belt, as there are too few 748Iin revenue service for the moment).

For UA, I am less certain as they seem to have committed to the A350.

Quoting rjm777ual (Reply 10):
But the 787 and a350 will also have domestic routes too, IAH-SFO etc...

Yes, a minority of these flights will likely be operated by the next generation wide-bodies, at peak times and/or also to shuffle aircraft among hubs as scheduling sometimes requires. I doubt that any will be configured for a domestic market, however.


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