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Topic: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2012-07-11 07:18:21 and read 18315 times.

Over the past few months, bits and pieces of an inevidable purchase have been leaking out via the aviation news media. First was that they were looking at several aircraft. Then there was the announcement of a multi-billion dollar loan guarantee. Today, those subtle hints finally come to fruition.


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...rlines-commits-to-100-mrjs-374254/

More:

http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...42-billion-agreement-100-mrjs-0711

[Edited 2012-07-11 07:28:25]

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: dcaviation
Posted 2012-07-11 07:23:25 and read 18290 times.

Big blow to Bombardier and Embraer.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: MountainFlyer
Posted 2012-07-11 07:25:40 and read 18256 times.

Interesting. Why MRJ's instead of E190s?

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2012-07-11 07:34:37 and read 18115 times.

At the time of posting, I did not realize that this announcement was in any way related to Farnborough. Mods, do as you please.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-07-11 07:35:09 and read 18118 times.

How many seats does an MRJ 90 have in a two class layout? I was thinking they might be preparing for the new DL contract that will allow additional 76-seat flying by regional carriers.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-07-11 07:53:24 and read 17915 times.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 2):
Interesting. Why MRJ's instead of E190s?

I'd say the reason is scope related. The E190 has been controversial with pilots because it can hold over 100 seats. The CRJ-900 cannot and has been more popular, particularly in a two class config. It appears to me that this A/C is more akin to a CRJ-900. The MTOW is also akin to the CRJ-900 and about 15% less than the E190.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-07-11 07:57:18 and read 17858 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 4):
How many seats does an MRJ 90 have in a two class layout? I was thinking they might be preparing for the new DL contract that will allow additional 76-seat flying by regional carriers.

It appears it could have around 84 to 86 seats in a two class. The site says 86-96 with 92 being typical.

I'm assuming this is a 2x2 config interior and a 1x2 premium class.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: timf
Posted 2012-07-11 08:07:56 and read 17746 times.

Mitsubishi appears to have designed their cabin configurations around an ultra-slimline seat that allows 29" pitch to feel like 31" pitch. If an airline chose to go with a more conventional pitch and 3 cabin (F, Y+, Y) arrangement, it looks like the MRJ90 could be made to fit 76 passengers. That said, it is 14 ft. longer than an E175 so there would be a fair amount of wasted space.

I'm wondering if the regional carriers are planning to launch more branded operations, since it's doubtful any mainline contracts will allow these aircraft to be used to their full potential. This is moreso the case with Republic and their C-Series order, which was going to be used for Frontier but now isn't.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: william
Posted 2012-07-11 08:14:13 and read 17647 times.

The fact that Skywest went with a relatively newcomer in the market tells you they got a niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice price on the order that Bombardier and Embraer couldn't touch.This RJ market in one fell swoop just jumped from two to three.

As Scooby would say............."Woah, woah".

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: clydenairways
Posted 2012-07-11 08:46:05 and read 17361 times.

The MRJ is smaller and lighter than the 190 series and is also likely to burn much less fuel. So if you don't need the additional capabilities of the Embraer. Then The MRJ can look very attractive.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Clipper136
Posted 2012-07-11 09:19:00 and read 17180 times.

Quoting timf (Reply 7):
That said, it is 14 ft. longer than an E175 so there would be a fair amount of wasted space.



The EMB175 has under floor cargo bins. The MRJ does not. It has a bin at the rear, like a CRJ or ERJ, so length of aircraft is not an indicator of available cabin space.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: GEG2RAP
Posted 2012-07-11 09:48:53 and read 16961 times.

Who are they gonna fly them for? Is DL and UA down with this?

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-07-11 09:52:29 and read 16924 times.

Congrats to OO and Mitsubishi!  

(as a Japan fanboy this is huge for me   )

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-07-11 09:53:03 and read 16917 times.

Quoting GEG2RAP (Reply 11):
Who are they gonna fly them for? Is DL and UA down with this?

If SkyWest can configure them to 76 seats, then they could fly for DL Connection. UA's scope clause, however, requires mainline pilots to fly 76 seaters, so UA Express is unlikely.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2012-07-11 10:02:04 and read 16812 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
UA's scope clause, however, requires mainline pilots to fly 76 seaters, so UA Express is unlikely.

Not neccesarily. The MRJ-70 can have 8 coach seats removed, have first class inserted, and stretch some rows with E+, and have it near-identical to the E-170.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: SEA
Posted 2012-07-11 10:07:43 and read 16777 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 14):
Not neccesarily. The MRJ-70 can have 8 coach seats removed, have first class inserted, and stretch some rows with E+, and have it near-identical to the E-170.

Then it'd fit in with the existing CR7 fleet as well with F and Ex-plus.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-07-11 10:08:52 and read 16769 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 14):

Not neccesarily. The MRJ-70 can have 8 coach seats removed, have first class inserted, and stretch some rows with E+, and have it near-identical to the E-170.

The order is for the MRJ 90, not the MRJ 70. Of course, this order doesn't rule out an MRJ 70 order for UA Express in the future.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-07-11 10:12:39 and read 16717 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 14):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):UA's scope clause, however, requires mainline pilots to fly 76 seaters, so UA Express is unlikely.
Not neccesarily. The MRJ-70 can have 8 coach seats removed, have first class inserted, and stretch some rows with E+, and have it near-identical to the E-170.

IIRC, Trans States Airlines has the MRJ on firm order as well. So potentially UA and DL have a couple of options to bid on their business. Who knows, maybe a few will make it into AlaskaSkyWest service?

-Dave

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-07-11 10:17:16 and read 16673 times.

Wow, did not see that coming! Nice looking airplane, and nice to see OO looking ahead. Maybe OO is looking at 2017, and that the clauses in the seat contracts might change by then?

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2012-07-11 10:20:07 and read 16609 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
The order is for the MRJ 90, not the MRJ 70

I've not seen anything that definitively points to one sub-type or the other. They've all just said 'MRJ.' However, I did see one that says, "Could purchase either MRJ70 or MRJ90 aircraft."

Of course, since nothing is truly set in stone yet, it could still swing either way.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-07-11 10:30:29 and read 16407 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 19):

I've not seen anything that definitively points to one sub-type or the other. They've all just said 'MRJ.' However, I did see one that says, "Could purchase either MRJ70 or MRJ90 aircraft."

Of course, since nothing is truly set in stone yet, it could still swing either way.

The FlightGlobal article says the order is for MRJ 90s. I don't know how accurate is that article, though.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2012-07-11 10:44:02 and read 16142 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
If SkyWest can configure them to 76 seats, then they could fly for DL Connection. UA's scope clause, however, requires mainline pilots to fly 76 seaters, so UA Express is unlikely.


That is true about United, however 2017 is still a long ways out and a lot can happen in regards to contract negotiations, So I wouldn't count out UA quite yet!

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-07-11 10:58:38 and read 15873 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 22):
That is true about United, however 2017 is still a long ways out and a lot can happen in regards to contract negotiations, So I wouldn't count out UA quite yet!

This order is likely to increase the resolve to hold the line on Scope by UA pilots. They haven't forgotten that 1437 UA pilots lost their jobs when they permitted 70 seats RJs (at UA). Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-07-11 11:02:21 and read 15838 times.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 2):
Interesting. Why MRJ's instead of E190s?

My guess is SCOPE. Currently no regional can operate E190s for any legacy. The MRJ probably has less gross weight and fewer seats.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-07-11 11:07:37 and read 15774 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 24):
My guess is SCOPE. Currently no regional can operate E190s for any legacy. The MRJ probably has less gross weight and fewer seats.

The E-190 seats 98-114 passengers in a one-class layout, while seating up to 94 in a two-class layout. The MRJ 90 seats 92 in a one-class layout, and that is with 29" pitch. I think it is indeed quite possible for the MRJ 90 to meet at least DL's 76-seat scope clause limit if configured in a two-class layout (three if counting Economy Comfort).

[Edited 2012-07-11 11:08:55]

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2012-07-11 11:12:35 and read 16227 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 23):
This order is likely to increase the resolve to hold the line on Scope by UA pilots. They haven't forgotten that 1437 UA pilots lost their jobs when they permitted 70 seats RJs (at UA).

I don't see why. This is fleet replacement, not fleet addition. And it's not like they had a choice with the 70 seat RJs. The court forced them to.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: PHLapproach
Posted 2012-07-11 11:50:00 and read 15663 times.

Some of these frames will be placed with EV. Unsure with how many.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-07-11 11:56:25 and read 16126 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Thread starter):
First was that they were looking at several aircraft.

I'm pleasantly shocked they picked the MRJ.    I thought Mitsubishi/Pratt was being talked to for discounts on E-175s or CRJ-900s.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 1):
Big blow to Bombardier and Embraer.

Huge blow. The MRJ needs to see multiples more to be a true competitor, but this just changed the playing field a la B6 and the E190.

This is a bigger flow to the CF34.   Seriously. SkyWest just put GE on notice for fuel burn and engine maintenance costs. I'm certain Pratt had to promise quite a bit... But with a lower OPR engine than the C-series GTF, Pratt should be able to deliver an engine with incredibly long overhaul intervals. Recall the gearbox is not a life limited part...

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 2):
Why MRJ's instead of E190s?

Fuel burn, engine maintenance, weight, and as others noted potential scope clause conflicts.

Quoting william (Reply 8):
This RJ market in one fell swoop just jumped from two to three.

As Scooby would say............."Woah, woah".

  

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: srbmod
Posted 2012-07-11 12:09:27 and read 15753 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 3):
At the time of posting, I did not realize that this announcement was in any way related to Farnborough. Mods, do as you please.

This order is significant enough to warrant discussion with its' own thread.

This is a huge coup for Mitsubishi, as they have flown under the radar with their MRJ program and this one order more than doubles their numbers of ordered a/c.

100 a/c won't entire replace the CRJ-700 fleet of EV and OO, but who knows what the future holds for both airlines in regards to their current contracts with Delta, United and Alaska. This order is presumably to replace those a/c in the fleet, as some of those a/c are already been in service for a decade and more and by the time of the first MRJ deliveries, will be over 15 years old.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: planemaker
Posted 2012-07-11 12:16:02 and read 15808 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 24):
The MRJ 90 seats 92 in a one-class layout, and that is with 29" pitch. I think it is indeed quite possible for the MRJ 90 to meet at least DL's 76-seat scope clause limit if configured in a two-class layout (three if counting Economy Comfort).
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
Huge blow.
Bombardier skunked by Skywest

Bombardier Inc. officials are not conceding defeat after being skunked Wednesday by Skywest Inc., the largest operator of Bombardier regional aircraft.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-07-11 12:25:22 and read 15484 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 22):
This order is likely to increase the resolve to hold the line on Scope by UA pilots. They haven't forgotten that 1437 UA pilots lost their jobs when they permitted 70 seats RJs (at UA). Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

I would imagine that many of them will be coming back to work in the near future, with the upcoming pilot shortage they'll be coming back in a big way. Forced retirements will probably see these guys shoot up the food chain fairly quickly. Lets also not forget many of these guys are currently flying the 70's that put them on the furlough list in the first place! Hopefully we can get 'em back up to mainline soon.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: LAXDESI
Posted 2012-07-11 12:27:05 and read 15478 times.

As per wikipedia, E175 has 88 seats at 30" pitch. So 90 seats at 29" pitch for E175 is possible, against 92 seats for MRJ-90.

MRJ-90 has about 5% more MTOW than E175, and a likely15% lower trip fuel burn makes it an unbeatable competitor to the current E175.

Embraer is considering using a common wing for E175 and E190/195 for its NEO program, which should help E175 in closing the gap with MRJ-90 on fuel burn.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-07-11 12:48:40 and read 15144 times.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 28):
This is a huge coup for Mitsubishi, as they have flown under the radar with their MRJ program and this one order more than doubles their numbers of ordered a/c.

Not to pull it off topic, but besides Republic and a few domestic orders, how many other airlines have ordered the MRJ?

Not many, I'm assuming, so this is huge news for their program.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-07-11 13:31:54 and read 14593 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 32):
Not to pull it off topic, but besides Republic and a few domestic orders, how many other airlines have ordered the MRJ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Regional_Jet#Orders

Republic is not on the list.

-Dave

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: ADent
Posted 2012-07-11 14:12:51 and read 14048 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 30):
I would imagine that many of them will be coming back to work in the near future, with the upcoming pilot shortage they'll be coming back in a big way.

Right. But if sCo goes with a 70 seat scope they can bring in a bunch of CRJ7s and lay off 1000 sCO pilots in addition to the sUA pilots on furlough.

How many pilots will UA need in the next 18 to 36 months?

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-07-11 14:49:31 and read 13618 times.

The new SLC airport will have the gates for skywest to operate these replacing alot of the CR2s and that is still skywests largest station by departures. For Delta they could retire alot of the CR2 flying and replace them with these larger and more fuel efficient planes more seats less frequencies and less fuel. Sure there are quite a few smaller cities they will need another plane type for sure but this could replace alot of the unfuel efficient flying going on think cali, idaho, montana, colorado flying etc. larger planes, less frequencies, and shorter waits between connections. SLC is building perfectly for this order and i know delta wants to reduce the high cr2 flying there they just cant because of gates. I could see this order being thinking about delta and not united.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: SSTeve
Posted 2012-07-11 15:04:10 and read 13476 times.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 29):
Bombardier skunked by Skywest

If Bombardier were simply offering more CR9s, I can see why Skywest might decide to try something newer.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-07-11 15:24:11 and read 13259 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 25):
Quoting flyhossd (Reply 23):
This order is likely to increase the resolve to hold the line on Scope by UA pilots. They haven't forgotten that 1437 UA pilots lost their jobs when they permitted 70 seats RJs (at UA).

I don't see why. This is fleet replacement, not fleet addition. And it's not like they had a choice with the 70 seat RJs. The court forced them to.

My reference was from an assumption that the MRJs would be equipped with greater than 70 seats. IF that is the case, then these aircraft would pose a threat to furlough even more UA pilots. Short of Chapter 11 for UA, I don't expect the UA pilots to give up any Scope (JMHO).

As I recall, it wasn't a court that forced 70 seat RJs at UA, rather it was the threat of it (please correct me if I'm wrong). That is, the UA pilots gave up Scope to 70 seat RJs in exchange for protecting their pension. Not much later, UA terminated the pension anyway. So 1400+ UA pilots lost their jobs and the pensions was lost, too.

Gee, I can't imagine why the UA pilot group would see SkyWest's order as an additional threat to their careers.
  

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2012-07-11 15:47:42 and read 13005 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 37):

If they didn't approve it, the court was going to do it anyway. As for UA taking their pensions, they can't blame the regionals for taking away the pensions. Their frustration lay with management, but hey, they have found the regionals an easier target since they unions see they can abuse the angle of "Der Tekkin' R Jerbs!!" despite the fact that they themselves approved of it in the first place (whether under duress, or not!) The fact that company screwed them over anyway just made things worse.

That said, ALPA has no bite here. These aircraft, whether MRJ-70, or MRJ-90, when properly sorted out, will be fully within the scope clauses of not only UA, but DL, AS, and eventually, US. And who knows, even AA possibly. They provide a more positive flying experience, too. That's what airlines want: a better flying experience for their customers.

[Edited 2012-07-11 15:56:52]

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: toltommy
Posted 2012-07-11 16:05:08 and read 12785 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 22):
This order is likely to increase the resolve to hold the line on Scope by UA pilots. They haven't forgotten that 1437 UA pilots lost their jobs when they permitted 70 seats RJs (at UA).
Quoting flyhossd (Reply 37):
That is, the UA pilots gave up Scope to 70 seat RJs in exchange for protecting their pension.

So the senior guys threw the junior ones under the bus, and then blame the company for layoffs? And they say denial is just a river in Egypt. Maybe the union needs to find a way to do something nobody else has done. Maybe they need to find a way to profitably fly the airplane at mainline. Profitably for both sides that is. Might mean starting pay isn't exactly where you want it, but it could mean 1400 recalls, and future job growth. It's a theory....

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-07-11 16:17:35 and read 12609 times.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 39):
Maybe the union needs to find a way to do something nobody else has done. Maybe they need to find a way to profitably fly the airplane at mainline. Profitably for both sides that is. Might mean starting pay isn't exactly where you want it, but it could mean 1400 recalls, and future job growth. It's a theory....

I agree, but the fact that this seems so elusive tells me that it's easier said than done. In my perfect world, everyone from the B1900 to the A380 would be on one list, with a pay curve/benefits package that reflected their tenure as well as the aircraft gross weight (or something akin). I'm not in the biz so I don't know how that would look, but clearly what we have now isn't working. An airline should be able to decide that a route needs a 70 seater, a 120 seater, and a 180 seater throughout the day/week without having to worry about who owns what, scope, etc. But it needs to work for everyone, including the deserving employees.

-Dave

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-07-11 19:37:43 and read 10968 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 38):
Quoting toltommy (Reply 39):

It seems that you both missed the point I was trying to make. It's not what the airline management wants or thinks or what the customers what - it's what the UA pilots will approve. As I wrote, earlier, short of a Chapter 11 filing by UA, I suspect that the UA pilot group will remember what happened when 70 seat RJs appeared on the UA property - 1437 UA pilots lost their jobs. In the minds of the UA pilots that remain, it's very likely that they'll equate more Scope concessions with more pilot furloughs.

Time will tell of course, eventually we'll know how it all sorts out. Maybe these MRJs aren't intended for United Express flying. There are large numbers of pilots about to hit mandatory retirement at age 65, so I wonder if the "regionals" will be able to staff the airplanes anyway.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: toltommy
Posted 2012-07-11 19:59:05 and read 10747 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 41):
As I wrote, earlier, short of a Chapter 11 filing by UA, I suspect that the UA pilot group will remember what happened when 70 seat RJs appeared on the UA property - 1437 UA pilots lost their jobs.

As much talk as there is of "union solidarity", there isn't any. The senior half of the group agreed to a contract that threw 1437 union brothers on the street, in order to save their pensions. Didn't work out, and those who remain blame scope for the job losses. Technically true, but the reality is that the senior pilots let those jobs be replaced by regional flying.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 41):
In the minds of the UA pilots that remain, it's very likely that they'll equate more Scope concessions with more pilot furloughs.

True. But they allowed scope to begin with, and every city UA serves can't be served by a 737 or larger mainline aircraft. How does the union work with the company to bring regional flying back in house? The bigger problem is that the sUA culture seems to be the surviving culture. And thats the culture that plucked the golden goose bare in ESOP days. The sCO culture seemed to be a little more understanding between both sides. It's very much "us vs. them" between the sUA pilots and management. It's going to keep the new UA from going forward.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: jolau1701
Posted 2012-07-11 20:06:53 and read 10684 times.

Can't resist......

"Look, Mom, the safety instructions are written in haiku.
Fasten seat belts tight.
Your seat cushions float gently.
Headsets, five dollars."
-Lisa Simpson

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-07-11 20:21:18 and read 10497 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 33):
Republic is not on the list.

my bad, got that mixed up with the C series

Quoting jolau1701 (Reply 43):
"Look, Mom, the safety instructions are written in haiku.
Fasten seat belts tight.
Your seat cushions float gently.
Headsets, five dollars."
-Lisa Simpson

  

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: SSTeve
Posted 2012-07-11 20:34:17 and read 10362 times.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 42):

As much talk as there is of "union solidarity", there isn't any. The senior half of the group agreed to a contract that threw 1437 union brothers on the street, in order to save their pensions. Didn't work out, and those who remain blame scope for the job losses. Technically true, but the reality is that the senior pilots let those jobs be replaced by regional flying.

If we're being brutally honest, might as well say that the senior pilots also allowed United to go after lower labor costs than Southwest... strange new world.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Infiniti329
Posted 2012-07-11 20:53:56 and read 10159 times.

Is this order for OO to operate themselves or EV as well?

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2012-07-12 04:21:29 and read 8040 times.

Quoting Infiniti329 (Reply 46):
Is this order for OO to operate themselves or EV as well?



From what I understand, it's to be 50-50. However, that could change depending on the results/repercussions of the next the EV pilot contract.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2012-07-12 04:27:24 and read 8076 times.

I received a copy of a SkyWest memo dated July 11, 2012 which reads -

"These 100 aircraft would be replacement aircraft for current ExpressJet and SkyWest Airlines fleets and are fully intended to fly under contract with major partners. They are not growth aircraft. The aircraft identified in the agreement in principle include the MRJ70 or MRJ90, which range from 70 to 90 seats. The configuration of seats would be determined by scope limitations and airline requirements at time of delivery. The intended delivery time frame would be from 2017 to 2020. While specific allocations are yet to be determined, we anticipate that aircraft would be delivered to both of SkyWest, Inc's operating entities."

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-07-12 11:22:12 and read 6444 times.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 48):
These 100 aircraft would be replacement aircraft for current ExpressJet and SkyWest Airlines fleets and are fully intended to fly under contract with major partners.

That implies lease expiration on current aircraft. Is that true for SkyWest?

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 41):
There are large numbers of pilots about to hit mandatory retirement at age 65, so I wonder if the "regionals" will be able to staff the airplanes anyway.

There are plenty of military pilots about to find out what 'budget cuts' mean to their jobs. There will be enough pilots.

The famed pilot shortage isn't going to happen anytime soon. I doubt it will ever happen.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 42):
How does the union work with the company to bring regional flying back in house?

That is the big question. How could *all* of the UA (and other legacy) unions work together to bring regional flying profitably in house?

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2012-07-12 11:31:13 and read 6397 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 49):
That implies lease expiration on current aircraft. Is that true for SkyWest?

These planes have been flying for so long that any long-term leases are now long over with. Now, the leases are on a 2-3 year contract cycle basis, so, in essence, they are always set to expire soon. Negotiated extensions and lease rates are what keep these planes flying.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-07-12 11:40:01 and read 6370 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 37):
Short of Chapter 11 for UA, I don't expect the UA pilots to give up any Scope (JMHO).

I always respect your opinion, but when I think about this I can't help but think "everything has a price". Whether it be simply more $ per hour, or whether it means a no-furlough clause in the contract or both, if there is a will there is a way.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-07-12 11:43:47 and read 6310 times.

Question: are these going to be exclusively operated by DL connection, or would they be split between DL and UA?

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-07-12 11:46:14 and read 6284 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 49):
There are plenty of military pilots about to find out what 'budget cuts' mean to their jobs. There will be enough pilots.

There aren't nearly enough military pilots - in total - to replace the pilots retiring at age 65.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 49):
The famed pilot shortage isn't going to happen anytime soon. I doubt it will ever happen.

It's already started at the regional pilot level. Just last night, practice for my kids' baseball team was cancelled as the Coach's (and his family, including one of his sons/players) flight home was cancelled for lack of pilots. Once this year and three times in the last 12 months, I've had my flights cancelled or severely delayed for lack of pilots.

The major carriers will be able to hire from the regionals, but where will the regionals hire from? Student pilot starts are very, very low.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: DeltaL1011man
Posted 2012-07-12 11:59:24 and read 6260 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 41):
it's what the UA pilots will approve. As I wrote, earlier, short of a Chapter 11 filing by UA, I suspect that the UA pilot group will remember what happened when 70 seat RJs appeared on the UA property - 1437 UA pilots lost their jobs. In the minds of the UA pilots that remain, it's very likely that they'll equate more Scope concessions with more pilot furloughs.

ha. Its ALPA. I fully expect a cave of scope.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 48):
The intended delivery time frame would be from 2017 to 2020.

Which makes me think they are hedging there bets and don't have a home for them yet.

Delta's TA will allow more 76 seaters ~3 years from now(2015) I do not expect Delta to wait that long to move toward its 50 seat reduction number.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2012-07-12 12:54:41 and read 6104 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 53):
It's already started at the regional pilot level. Just last night,

You, him, and everyone else on that plane don't know that. What you say is just pure conjecture. There could be a multitude of reasons as to why there was no crew, but you picked the most convenient one. Yes, you flew planes, but more than likely, you've never worked crew support, or dealt with the crews ignoring phone calls, or never returning messages. Plus, it's too early in the month for crews to time out.

Anyhow, we're getting off track here.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 54):
Which makes me think they are hedging there bets and don't have a home for them yet.

I would suspect that MRJ70s at least will be a replacement for the older CRJ-700s. Practically the same economics, plus about 800 more miles of range.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-07-12 14:00:17 and read 6007 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 55):
plus about 800 more miles of range.

Can't you just see the possibilities!   

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: ual777
Posted 2012-07-12 14:38:56 and read 5885 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 49):

There are plenty of military pilots about to find out what 'budget cuts' mean to their jobs. There will be enough pilots.

The famed pilot shortage isn't going to happen anytime soon. I doubt it will ever happen.

The military does not have that many fixed-wing pilots. Further, many do not even want to fly for the airlines. As of right now the regionals are struggling to find people with enough flight time to fill classes.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: queb
Posted 2012-07-12 16:14:25 and read 5748 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 55):
I would suspect that MRJ70s at least will be a replacement for the older CRJ-700s. Practically the same economics, plus about 800 more miles of range.

Not really:

All numbers in NM

MRJ70STD ----- MRJ70ER ----- MRJ70LR
---- 820 --------- 1470 ---------1820

CRJ700STD --- CRJ700ER (5 tonnes lighter MTOW than MRJ70ER)
--- 1218 ----------1504

MRJ90STD ----- MRJ90ER ----- MRJ90LR
---- 900 ---------- 1290 --------1780

CRJ900STD --- CRJ900ER ---- CRJ900LR (4 tonnes lighter MTOW than MRJ90LR)
--- 1048 --------- 1283 --------1515

Source : Bombardier & Mitsubishi websites

[Edited 2012-07-12 16:15:40]

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: queb
Posted 2012-07-12 16:28:30 and read 5710 times.

Here's the official PR from MHI:

Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation and SkyWest, Inc., the holding company for the two regional air carriers who conduct the world's largest combined regional airline operations, are pleased to announce that they have reached an agreement in principle in anticipation of completing a firm order for 100 Mitsubishi Regional Jets (MRJ), laying the foundation for a business relationship leading to Mitsubishi Aircraft's delivery of MRJs to SkyWest commencing in 2017.

http://www.mrj-japan.com/press_releases/news_120712.html

All firm, no options ?

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2012-07-12 16:37:10 and read 5680 times.

Quoting queb (Reply 58):
Not really:

All numbers in NM

Those numbers are assuming full payload with all 70/90 seats and bags filled. These won't be equipped as such. Thus, the planes could actually carry more fuel for a given payload, and thus, more range. The only caveat here is I they haven't published how much fuel each model and variant will hold yet, and the approximate fuel burn.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-07-12 16:46:08 and read 5652 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 55):
You, him, and everyone else on that plane don't know that.

Actually, "we" (he and I) do know that. It was told to him by one of the employees and I was able to verify it through a solid contact at that carrier.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-07-12 17:09:30 and read 5597 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 51):
I always respect your opinion, but when I think about this I can't help but think "everything has a price". Whether it be simply more $ per hour, or whether it means a no-furlough clause in the contract or both, if there is a will there is a way.

Well stated, but I think that UA will be the exception (Delta ALPA certainly did "cave" IMHO). However, the UA pilots haven't forgotten what happened last time (1437 pilots lost their jobs). BTW, "no-furlough" clauses are generally worthless.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 54):
ha. Its ALPA. I fully expect a cave of scope.

As I stated above, DL ALPA certainly did, but I expect UA ALPA to hold the line.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2012-07-12 17:38:31 and read 5517 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 34):
Right. But if sCo goes with a 70 seat scope they can bring in a bunch of CRJ7s and lay off 1000 sCO pilots in addition to the sUA pilots on furlough.

Please.

The need is not to replace 110 seaters with 2 50 seaters like it was in the past days of low fuel prices.

The need is to replace inefficient 50 seaters with efficient 70-76 seaters. Replacing one express aircraft with another. The cost to fly the MRJ on a current CR2 or ERJ route is lower on a per flight basis not just a CASM metric, meaning extra revenue with lower cost. That improves the bottom line of the airline, which makes for a healthier airline, meaning more money with which to pay employees.

The unions could easily agree to this and lose nothing. "One for one replacement of 50 seaters for 76 seaters on current routes that see no mainline service" would be a simple concession that would cost the pilots nothing and gain them a bit at the table...

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 48):
"These 100 aircraft would be replacement aircraft for current ExpressJet and SkyWest Airlines fleets and are fully intended to fly under contract with major partners. They are not growth aircraft.

Exactly. The 50 seater is dead. Has to be replaced with something, or nothing.

The next gen 76 seaters are the something. If the mainline pilots think that holding out on this issue will return mainline jobs to the airline, forget it. The airline will simply drop the markets altogether than pay 737 wages to fly a 76 seater...

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-07-12 17:48:23 and read 5487 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 63):
Please.

The need is not to replace 110 seaters with 2 50 seaters like it was in the past days of low fuel prices.

The need is to replace inefficient 50 seaters with efficient 70-76 seaters. Replacing one express aircraft with another. The cost to fly the MRJ on a current CR2 or ERJ route is lower on a per flight basis not just a CASM metric, meaning extra revenue with lower cost.

Exactly. Instead of flying 3x CRJ-200 in the future we will see 2xMRJ etc on a route just a rough example. That is clearly what these will be used for not expansion to save money on fuel. The CRJ-200s are just killers if fuel shoots thru the roof again.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2012-07-13 08:12:36 and read 5092 times.

This just came through the wires:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...der-kicking-off-fleet-renewal.html

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-07-13 09:15:04 and read 4991 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 34):

Right. But if sCo goes with a 70 seat scope they can bring in a bunch of CRJ7s and lay off 1000 sCO pilots in addition to the sUA pilots on furlough.

How many pilots will UA need in the next 18 to 36 months?
Quoting flyhossd (Reply 62):
...I think that UA will be the exception (Delta ALPA certainly did "cave" IMHO). However, the UA pilots haven't forgotten what happened last time (1437 pilots lost their jobs). BTW, "no-furlough" clauses are generally worthless.

Perhaps, but I do honestly believe that at this point more 70's (to fill on the s-CO side) would not cost any mainline jobs. For one thing, the company cannot afford the press that comes with furloughing pilots, also I may be alone, but I see a sort of "shrinkage" in the regional space over the next 10 years. There is only so far up the ML pilots will allow scope to go and the smaller aircraft are becoming less feasible economically (and there are no replacements) so the regionals are getting squeezed from both sides. Meanwhile their pilots are going to be getting poached by the majors, so this will be a VERY interesting decade in that space.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2012-07-13 09:30:01 and read 4966 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 66):
Perhaps, but I do honestly believe that at this point more 70's (to fill on the s-CO side) would not cost any mainline jobs.

The scope clause could be written so that it fixes the express fleet at a certain capacity, regardless of aircraft size. Any additions to the express fleet must come with additions to the mainline fleet. Any dropping of mainline capacity must come with dropping express capacity.

The idea of "getting back what you gave up" is a tired concept. I believe some in the union think that if they just hold pat on 76 seaters, the airline will have to return some flying to mainline. What will happen instead is that they will simply drop markets.

But a lot can be done to preserve what you have and grow it into the future, all while acting as if you are "conceding" on a longstanding point of dispute.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-07-13 09:56:59 and read 4909 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 67):
The scope clause could be written so that it fixes the express fleet at a certain capacity, regardless of aircraft size. Any additions to the express fleet must come with additions to the mainline fleet. Any dropping of mainline capacity must come with dropping express capacity.

On the s-UA side that does exist. Express block hours are not allowed to exceed ML block hours, and there is also an ASM measure as well.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2012-07-13 10:19:04 and read 4859 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 68):
On the s-UA side that does exist. Express block hours are not allowed to exceed ML block hours, and there is also an ASM measure as well.

I know, but AFAIK, the new joint group wants to scrap that, as they "gave up" something and want it back.

My point is, it aint coming back. It's gone. Markets would be dropped before they went to mainline 737s, and UA just isn't going to take 76 seaters in house.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-07-13 10:32:05 and read 4830 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 69):

I know, but AFAIK, the new joint group wants to scrap that, as they "gave up" something and want it back.

My point is, it aint coming back. It's gone. Markets would be dropped before they went to mainline 737s, and UA just isn't going to take 76 seaters in house.

  

I would just say that it is totally reasonable for the pilots to want protections, and they deserve that consideration. But those protections need to come with considerations for the company as well. Essentially if the ML pilots want to maintain their wage premium they need to give and take, especially as (unfortunately) the profession becomes more and more of "Q".

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-07-13 11:44:20 and read 4746 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 69):
My point is, it aint coming back. It's gone. Markets would be dropped before they went to mainline 737s, and UA just isn't going to take 76 seaters in house.

So something, once conceded, can't be "re-taken?" I don't necessarily agree and can think of examples.

For example, IIRC, as s-CO the pilot crew rest seats can be in coach class (three seats) if the BusinessFirst seats are full and that was a concession I'm expecting to be returned as I don't believe the s-UA pilots (who outnumber the s-CO pilots) would ever agree to.*

I was of the opinion that once the camels nose is under the tent (50 seat RJs, then 70, then 76, then 84, etc.) that it would be hard - but not impossible - to stop. With the shortage of pilots being faced at the regionals, now is the time for the mainline pilots to draw the line (though DL ALPA certainly didn't do that).

My second flight at CO was on a DC-9-10; IIRC it had 84 seats (maybe 86?). It was flown by mainline pilots with mainline flight attendants, maintained by mainline mechanics, dispatched by mainline dispatchers, etc... How is a 70-90 seat RJ any different? It's only different because management wants a "C-scale" airline.

But then the mainline carrier loses some control (as Jeff Smisek testified before Congress - CO took the money for CO3407, but (he) claimed no responsibility for the Colgan accident - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2c_vhyoSkU ).

Outsource, outsource, outsource may be the mantra at the business schools, but there are costs for doing so (see Colgan 3407). I'm convinced that the pilot shortage is about to become very serious at the regional airline level - so why not bring the flying back to mainline?

http://www.clarionledger.com/article...ine-pilot-shortage-raises-concerns



*Indeed, the new FAA flight and duty time regs won't permit rest seats in regular coach seats, if I understand the regulations correctly.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-07-13 12:54:13 and read 4639 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 71):
How is a 70-90 seat RJ any different? It's only different because management wants a "C-scale" airline.

The world is a different place than it was back then and so is the airline industry. I won't comment on the Colgan incident specifically, but have there not also been many incidents involving mainline aircraft as well? UAX does somewhere on the order of 2x more departures than Mainline does. Statistics would say it's then more likely there will be incidents just due to the magnitude of the operation. All our regional partners are world class operators and we ensure the safety of their operation without compromise. Turning this into a discussion about safety is a red herring.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-07-13 12:55:33 and read 4649 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 63):
Exactly. The 50 seater is dead. Has to be replaced with something, or nothing.

This needs to be repeated. Any airline that doesn't replace their 50 seaters by 2020 is going to be out of those markets. Most markets that see the RJs are simply not large enough for competitive mainline. Not to every hub at a frequency that drives a hub.

The airline that has the MRJs (or re-engines E-jets) will be able to feed mainline.

I would like to see mainline crews and personel, but that requires contracts that are reasonable. Its not just salary, but conditions that drive the costs.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 63):
The cost to fly the MRJ on a current CR2 or ERJ route is lower on a per flight basis not just a CASM metric, meaning extra revenue with lower cost. That improves the bottom line of the airline, which makes for a healthier airline, meaning more money with which to pay employees.

Which will be a nice healthy change for the cities that rely on RJ service. Fares should drop which will stimulate demand. That added demand will often be a mainline connecting flight, so ironically increased RJ gauge should spur increased mainline flying.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 71):
I'm convinced that the pilot shortage is about to become very serious at the regional airline level

Why? Military pilots are about to be released in numbers. Against that competition, how will new pilots make it to mainline? Answer, they won't. They will fly regional, build the experience and then go mainline.

Now if the majors were willing to bring in the larger RJs... that would be great! The unions should sit down and set some ground rules that make it possible.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 71):
With the shortage of pilots being faced at the regionals

Short of flight school advertisements, what evidence are you seeing of a shortage of pilots? Please provide a another link. IMHO, the rise in the requirements was to provide jobs for returning military pilots. Once AA utilizes pilots more efficiently (they must to stay in business), it means retirements may happen without hiring new pilots.

I believe some of the majors will *not* increase scope for 70+ seats and thus will be forced to park 50 seaters. That will also free up pilots. The choice is go to with a larger plane such as the MRJ under discussion or drop service. These points will not support a 738MAX.

And mainline union contracts do not support a destination with very low service levels (e.g., 3X/week). Until everything is in place, it will stay regional.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-07-13 13:07:14 and read 4588 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 73):
Military pilots are about to be released in numbers.

I'll say this again. There aren't enough military pilots - IN TOTAL - to replace all the pilots that will be forced into retirement soon. As I recall, UA alone has over 300 next year, 400 the year after that and then over 500 for years and years to come. IIRC, AA and DL's numbers are even greater.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: LAXDESI
Posted 2012-07-13 13:16:10 and read 4579 times.

Aviation week article on the MRJ order suggests that order is subject to revision depending on how scope clauses shake out.
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_07_13_2012_p01-02-476369.xml

Quote:
SkyWest’s 100-aircraft tentative order for the Mitsubishi Regional Jet is for the MRJ90, the larger of the two versions, but the deal also gives the U.S. regional carrier the flexibility to convert all or part of the order to the smaller MRJ70, CFO Michael Kraupp tells Aviation Week.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-07-13 13:53:35 and read 4509 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 71):
(though DL ALPA certainly didn't do that).

You keep saying that, but DL's management continually says that the 717s will be used to replace some of the regional flying. Sounds to me like MORE mainline.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: planemaker
Posted 2012-07-13 14:04:42 and read 4484 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 74):
I'll say this again. There aren't enough military pilots - IN TOTAL - to replace all the pilots that will be forced into retirement soon.

There is still a lot of flux in the industry. If there is a shortage then it means that furloughed pilots now flying at foreign carriers will get to come back home. The supposed shortage is overblown.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-07-13 16:09:14 and read 4353 times.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 77):
The supposed shortage is overblown.

I think there was more a shortage of flying jobs (domestically) than there was a shortage of pilots. When my son-in-law was looking for a job after he left Skywest.........there always seem to be a glut of applicants for too few jobs.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: planemaker
Posted 2012-07-13 16:31:57 and read 4308 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 78):
I think there was more a shortage of flying jobs (domestically) than there was a shortage of pilots. When my son-in-law was looking for a job after he left Skywest.........there always seem to be a glut of applicants for too few jobs.

Plus, it seems that people forget that university programs and flight schools are still operating (although numbers have tailed off from previous years. But that is part of the "problem" - flight schools priming the "looming pilot shortage" story to induce more people to sign up for lessons.)

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-07-13 17:26:37 and read 4261 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 50):
Now, the leases are on a 2-3 year contract cycle basis, so, in essence, they are always set to expire soon. Negotiated extensions and lease rates are what keep these planes flying.

Thank you. Interesting way to run a business. But with the nature of 50 seater leases, the airlines should be able to get favorable terms.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 75):
that order is subject to revision depending on how scope clauses shake out.

No surprise. SkyWest couldn't order anything without that clause today.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 53):
I've had my flights cancelled or severely delayed for lack of pilots.

Which airline? I've heard of one so poorly managed they cannot retain pilots. Note: I do not know of facts.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 77):
If there is a shortage then it means that furloughed pilots now flying at foreign carriers will get to come back home. The supposed shortage is overblown.

1,645 at AA and unfortunately about to grow
1,537 at UA (short term I'm not certain, long term I recall them having the most near 65 pilots)
49 at US (why not just hire them back)

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy.html

Quoting mayor (Reply 78):
When my son-in-law was looking for a job after he left Skywest.........there always seem to be a glut of applicants for too few jobs.

That is what I'm hearing from those 'on the outside.' The issue isn't a shortage of pilots, it is pilot jobs below a living wage which deter pilots.

But this is a SkyWest thread. They'll be able to hire before Greatlakes thanks to higher pay scales.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...es/major-national-lcc/skywest.html
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/great_lakes.html


"Job Outlook
Employment of airline and commercial pilots is expected to grow 11 percent from 2010 to 2020, about as fast as the average for all occupations. Regional airlines and low-cost carriers will present the best job opportunities. Pilots seeking jobs at the major airlines will face strong competition."


from the labor statistics guys at the government:
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportatio.../airline-and-commercial-pilots.htm

In other words, there isn't a predicted shortage of pilot before 2020.]

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-07-13 17:58:45 and read 4190 times.

Ok,
so there seems to be a pilot shortage in Asia. Hasn't there been for a while?

"Lee Moak, president of the pilots union, said he doubts a pilot shortage will be felt in the U.S. for about three to five years. If U.S. airlines start hiring pilots in large numbers, he said, pilots now flying for foreign carriers will likely return home. There are currently about 90,000 airline pilots in the U.S. and Canada.
"Globally is another matter," Moak said.
Industry and government officials anticipate a wave of pilot retirements at U.S. airlines beginning this year. Five years ago, the FAA raised the mandatory retirement age for pilots from 60 to 65. The fifth anniversary of that decision is Dec. 13. Pilots who were age 60 on that date five years ago are reaching the age where they have to retire.
Also, FAA regulations created in response to an aviation safety law passed by Congress two years ago will raise the experience threshold required to be an airline first officer from the current 250 hours of flying time to 1,500 hours, the same level as required of captains. That's expected to make it harder for airlines to find qualified new applicants.
At the same time, the pool of military-trained pilots that airlines have relied upon in the past has largely dried up as more pilots choose to remain in the military rather than seek airline careers, industry officials said. That means airlines have had to rely on new hires that have accumulated their experience at flight schools and, later, working as flight instructors at local airports and the flight schools.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2012/0...-safety-concerns/#ixzz20YPZa6li


I'm not seeing how this will effect this order if the shortage is out 3 to 5 years.

It seems like there is always going to be a pilot shortage 3 to 5 years out... The first to feel it will be foreign carriers IMHO, not the regionals.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2012-07-13 19:26:01 and read 4075 times.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 63):
The need is to replace inefficient 50 seaters with efficient 70-76 seaters. Replacing one express aircraft with another. The cost to fly the MRJ on a current CR2 or ERJ route is lower on a per flight basis not just a CASM metric, meaning extra revenue with lower cost. That improves the bottom line of the airline, which makes for a healthier airline, meaning more money with which to pay employees.

I believe the only airline that is gonna benifit from the extra revenue is the mainline carrier for which the regional is flying for. Most if not all of the regionals operate under a fee for departure contract where a set fee is agreed upon for the compleation of the flight by the regional carrier. Once the agreed upon fee has been paid to the regional any other revenue from that flight goes to the mainline carrier (ex. UA for a YV flight after YV is paid the FFD)

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2012-07-13 20:28:31 and read 3974 times.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 82):
I believe the only airline that is gonna benifit from the extra revenue is the mainline carrier for which the regional is flying for. Most if not all of the regionals operate under a fee for departure contract where a set fee is agreed upon for the compleation of the flight by the regional carrier. Once the agreed upon fee has been paid to the regional any other revenue from that flight goes to the mainline carrier (ex. UA for a YV flight after YV is paid the FFD)

That's how it's supposed to work, and there's usually a nice profit margin involved, too. I mean, what's the point of providing a service if there was little to no hope of making any profit for future investments?

However, so much undercutting has happened over the past decade from startups like GoJets, and tiny commuter carriers, like Colgan, that---coupled with contractual rate resets---margins have gotten razor thin for the more established carriers like SkyWest, Mesaba, Pinnacle, and Air Wisconsin. Thus, the only way for them to survive is to increase how much is in that razor thin percentage.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-07-13 20:35:10 and read 3963 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 80):
The issue isn't a shortage of pilots, it is pilot jobs below a living wage which deter pilots.

And that wage problem seems to be within the U.S. There are many foreign carriers (mostly Asian) that are looking for pilots and are willing to give everything but the kitchen sink to get someone to sign on.

Topic: RE: SkyWest Enters Agreement To Purchase 100 MRJs
Username: planemaker
Posted 2012-07-13 23:18:20 and read 3784 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 80):
In other words, there isn't a predicted shortage of pilot before 2020.

By then we'll have some more consolidation and rationalization to alleviate that "shortage"... and then we'll start to have SP cargo ops and some new "SP RJs" to alleviate it further.  


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