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Topic: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: usxguy
Posted 2012-07-17 14:07:30 and read 26250 times.

Was a bit surprised to see this buried in a fare-related press release:

In addition, the airline's parent company, Hawaiian Holdings, has signed a Letter of Intent to acquire turbo-prop aircraft with the aim of establishing a subsidiary carrier to serve routes not currently in Hawaiian's neighbor island system.

Wonder what impact this will have on Island Air.... I think Mokulele will be OK as the Caravans can definitely fly where a Dash 8/ATR/Saab can't..

More at: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hawaii...ves-neighbor-island-194100380.html

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: rj777
Posted 2012-07-17 14:14:18 and read 26174 times.

Does anyone hold the naming rights to Aloha? If not, maybe they could use that as the name.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: srbmod
Posted 2012-07-17 14:32:32 and read 25962 times.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 1):
Does anyone hold the naming rights to Aloha? If not, maybe they could use that as the name.

Back in 2011, one of the former majority shareholders of Aloha bought the name and associated trademark, presumably to prevent Mesa from renaming Go! to Aloha. Perhaps they could be persuaded to sell it or license the name and trademarks.

As for what to call this subsidiary, I hope they don't take the easy way out and call it Hawaiian Express,. Hawaiian Connection or HA Express/HA Connection. Maybe name it after a Hawaiian word for something like voyage, flight, bird, or wind.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-07-17 14:34:36 and read 25940 times.

They didn't say what sort of turboprops.

I'm a bit out of the loop on currently available turboprops. There is the Q400, of course. What else is on the market at this time?

I seem to recall that on some very short routes, a jet actually takes longer to make the flight than a turboprop. I wonder if HNL-OGG is one of those routes. It took us 23 minutes from wheels-up to wheels-down when we did it on a 717.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: NZ107
Posted 2012-07-17 14:38:09 and read 25867 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
What else is on the market at this time?

The new ATR 72-600.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: metjetCEO
Posted 2012-07-17 14:49:04 and read 25763 times.

Im thinking of Lanai and Molokai.
I would suspect this could devastate Island Air

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-07-17 14:50:29 and read 25745 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
They didn't say what sort of turboprops.

I'm a bit out of the loop on currently available turboprops. There is the Q400, of course. What else is on the market at this time?

I seem to recall that on some very short routes, a jet actually takes longer to make the flight than a turboprop. I wonder if HNL-OGG is one of those routes. It took us 23 minutes from wheels-up to wheels-down when we did it on a 717.

I think HA needs to have a presence on MKK & LNY at least, they have flown there several times, I personally have flown HA's SD-330's, Dash-7's, DC-9's to MKK the DC-9's seemed to take a little less time, but on such a short route the time savings was marginal at best. I'd think JHM would also be of interest again to HA. I like the Q400, I've flown those, I'm sure the ATR would be the other consideration. I also lived in Hawaii during the Mahalo days and their ATR's were a decent ride throughout the Islands, but Mahalo's F-27's were a bit run down, but still decent.

On a side note, I did notice when flying HNL-OGG on D10's, L10's that the flight seems to take longer, maybe due to the fact they taxi to the reef runway in HNL or the bird just goes slower, but my flights on this route with UA, AA & DL never were as short as an AQ 73S or HA DC9 or 717.

[Edited 2012-07-17 14:53:50]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-07-17 14:58:38 and read 25627 times.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 2):
Back in 2011, one of the former majority shareholders of Aloha bought the name and associated trademark, presumably to prevent Mesa from renaming Go! to Aloha. Perhaps they could be persuaded to sell it or license the name and trademarks.

Isn't it now owned by Aloha Air Cargo, which is owned by Saltchuk Resources (the same people behind Northern Air Cargo)?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):

They didn't say what sort of turboprops

I'd put my early money on the ATR-72. The stage lengths probably don't justify the extra cost of the Q400, although it can fit a few more seats.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: aloha73g
Posted 2012-07-17 15:03:56 and read 25569 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Isn't it now owned by Aloha Air Cargo, which is owned by Saltchuk Resources (the same people behind Northern Air Cargo)?

Yucaipa Cos, Aloha's former owner, owns all of their intellectual property (logos, trademarks, etc). There is a condition imposed by the bankruptcy judge that prohibits them from selling the name to Mesa.

Aloha!

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: g500
Posted 2012-07-17 15:16:45 and read 25401 times.

The Dash-8-400 doesn't seem like a good replacement for the B717...

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: ElpinDAB
Posted 2012-07-17 15:23:29 and read 25340 times.

Fwiw, Flight Global's article says they are looking at turboprops with 50 seats or less.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ch-new-regional-subsidiary-374464/

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
The Dash-8-400 doesn't seem like a good replacement for the B717...

The article also states that the aircraft are intended to operate smaller routes currently not served by HA for either economic or operational purposes. They could also use the aircraft to serve existing markets during off-peak times. It does not sound like these will replace the 717 in any way.

For props with 50 seats or less, maybe the ATR-42-600? Either that, or they might have to buy used.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: aloha73g
Posted 2012-07-17 15:25:13 and read 25317 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
The Dash-8-400 doesn't seem like a good replacement for the B717...

They are NOT replacing 717s.

Any turboprops added to the fleet will be for an "express" carrier and must have less than 69 seats and 69,000 lbs (per recent union deals). Turboprops can not fly between the 5 major airports in Hawaii (HNL, OGG, LIH, KOA & ITO). They will be restricted to serving smaller communities in Hawaii (LNY, MKK, & JHM are the obvious ones, also possible are Hana, Kamuela, & Princeville) or feeding HA's mainland airports served by 767/A330.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-07-17 15:27:59 and read 25288 times.

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 11):
Any turboprops added to the fleet will be for an "express" carrier and must have less than 69 seats and 69,000 lbs (per recent union deals).

In that case I think the ATR has to be considered the front runner at this point.

Unless of course Xian or Antonov have anything to say about it...  

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: skymiler
Posted 2012-07-17 15:32:07 and read 25222 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
In that case I think the ATR has to be considered the front runner at this point.

Unless of course Xian or Antonov have anything to say about it...

Or new build Viking Twotters!!!  

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: Flaps
Posted 2012-07-17 15:37:28 and read 25172 times.

I'll cast my lot with ATR as well on a new build. Although I personally would prefer the Q, it's too much aircraft and too expensive to operate on these short stages where its speed advantage is negated. ATR is the only game in town for the 50 seat market anyway.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: ElpinDAB
Posted 2012-07-17 15:46:40 and read 25040 times.

Somehow I overlooked in the FlightGlobal article that it states 6 *used* turboprops with 50 seats or less. That broadens the range somewhat.

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 11):
Any turboprops added to the fleet will be for an "express" carrier and must have less than 69 seats and 69,000 lbs (per recent union deals).
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
In that case I think the ATR has to be considered the front runner at this point.

BMI, this still doesn't eliminate the Q400, which weighs under 69,000lbs and could be configured for less than 69 seats.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-07-17 15:56:56 and read 24908 times.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 15):
BMI, this still doesn't eliminate the Q400, which weighs under 69,000lbs and could be configured for less than 69 seats.

It makes it an uphill battle, since the Q400 is expensive enough as it is.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: B6JFKH81
Posted 2012-07-17 16:00:23 and read 24869 times.

Okay, we need one of the wizards on here to do their thing and slap the current HA c/s onto a Q400 and an ATR so we can see what it'll look like  

Although, I was able to find this old pic, the design has really changed though:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Colin Zuppicich

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: AA737-823
Posted 2012-07-17 16:13:05 and read 24751 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
I'd put my early money on the ATR-72. The stage lengths probably don't justify the extra cost of the Q400, although it can fit a few more seats.

My thoughts exactly. But with the revelation (a few comments down) that they're looking in the 50 seat group, I have no idea what they'd pick, other than an ATR-42... unless they go.... USED. Oh boy.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Isn't it now owned by Aloha Air Cargo, which is owned by Saltchuk Resources (the same people behind Northern Air Cargo)?

Yep.

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 8):
Yucaipa Cos, Aloha's former owner, owns all of their intellectual property (logos, trademarks, etc). There is a condition imposed by the bankruptcy judge that prohibits them from selling the name to Mesa.

Nope.
Or at least, doubtful.
Aloha Air Cargo is a subsidiary of Saltchuk. The intellectual property may be owned by Aunt Meredith, but in some way shape or form, Saltchuk is operating the airline.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: aloha73g
Posted 2012-07-17 16:28:14 and read 24595 times.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 18):
Nope.
Or at least, doubtful.
Aloha Air Cargo is a subsidiary of Saltchuk. The intellectual property may be owned by Aunt Meredith, but in some way shape or form, Saltchuk is operating the airline.

Aloha Air Cargo took AQ's FAA operating certificate, the AQ code and "Aloha" callsign but the name "Aloha Airlines" and the bird of paradise logo, red script "Aloha," and the previous logos used by Aloha (Funbird, etc) are owned by Yucaipa.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/busine...rlines_name_sold.html?id=112922419

Quote:
Aloha Airlines' name has been sold, but go! Mokulele won't be able to use it.

Los Angeles-based Yucaipa Cos., the former majority shareholder of Aloha, won federal Bankruptcy Court approval last week to buy the Aloha name and other intellectual property for $1.5 million with a stipulation that it not resell the name to Mesa Air Group, the parent of go! Mokulele.

Aloha!

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: flyby519
Posted 2012-07-17 16:33:56 and read 24544 times.

AA/MQ has been trying to sell off the regional feed, maybe HA would buy the OW certificate since it has an ATR training program. I'd love to see ATRs in Hawaiian colors!

Anyone have details how the subsidiary will be structured? Wholly owned I assume? Hawaiian pilots/FAs/mechanics on the mainline seniority list?

[Edited 2012-07-17 17:29:09]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: richierich
Posted 2012-07-17 18:20:15 and read 23004 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
I seem to recall that on some very short routes, a jet actually takes longer to make the flight than a turboprop. I wonder if HNL-OGG is one of those routes. It took us 23 minutes from wheels-up to wheels-down when we did it on a 717

It depends on which direction they fly, what runways are in-use, etc. I just flew OGG-HNL on a HA B717 and it took about 33 minutes. We departed Maui to the north, then flew down past Molokai toward Oahu, landing at HNL to the north. I imagine the return trip was probably more like your flight,

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: aztrainer
Posted 2012-07-17 18:55:09 and read 22376 times.

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 11):
Any turboprops added to the fleet will be for an "express" carrier and must have less than 69 seats and 69,000 lbs (per recent union deals). Turboprops can not fly between the 5 major airports in Hawaii (HNL, OGG, LIH, KOA & ITO). They will be restricted to serving smaller communities in Hawaii (LNY, MKK, & JHM are the obvious ones, also possible are Hana, Kamuela, & Princeville) or feeding HA's mainland airports served by 767/A330.

What about a route that would cause the planes to fly direct to major airports, but skip HNL such as OGG-KOA, OGG-ITO as well as the smaller airports? Would Kauai see much of this traffic? It seems that it is far enough away from HNL that it would be cost prohibitive to fly an ATR vs a 717.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: aloha73g
Posted 2012-07-17 19:53:10 and read 21470 times.

The following is based on my understanding if the recently ratified Flight Attendant contract at HA:

The feeder carrier may not operate any flights between HNL-OGG, HNL-LIH, HNL-KOA, or HNL-ITO. It could operate, for example OGG-ITO, OGG-KOA, KOA-MKK, LIH-LNY, HNL-LNY, HNL-MKK, HNL-JHM, etc.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: ridgid727
Posted 2012-07-17 19:57:19 and read 21409 times.

Saabs or Emb120's would be in the 30 passenger range, which would be perfect for some of those secondary markets.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2012-07-17 20:01:35 and read 22164 times.

This is a surprise, but may make sense. HA is dominant in the inter island market, but is no longer able to serve the whole market with the 717's. This does leave the back door open and although Island Air and Mesa have not shown much in the way of aggressive marketing or desire to grow beyond their existing operations. By buying a few relatively cheap turboprops, HA with its connection potential can lock up the market. They are already the preferred airline and good community citizens. Can't see Island Air surviving or for that matter Mesa who just seems to be hanging on with their fleet of five CRJ 200's.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: SWALUV
Posted 2012-07-17 20:16:28 and read 21875 times.

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 22):
or feeding HA's mainland airports served by 767/A330.

This brings up an interesting point. I could see this more on the east coast than on the west coast due to the limited flight out of JFK. DCA/IAD/BWI as well as ATL, CLT, ORD???, BOS, PWM, PIT, PHL????, AVP???????????, could be very interesting airport's to see this feeder service for the one A330 flight. If the demand was high enough than this would allow a second HNL-JFK to be put into service (slot permitting) as well as allow HA to keep more profits to its self ( limited need for B6). Could we possibly see B717 on the east coast for this specific reason of feeder flights??

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: greggariouspdx
Posted 2012-07-17 20:37:46 and read 21896 times.

Would love to see scheduled service to Waimea on the Big Island started up again. The props might make that route work.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2012-07-17 21:57:39 and read 20906 times.

Quoting SWALUV (Reply 26):
Could we possibly see B717 on the east coast for this specific reason of feeder flights??

Not likely in my opinion. I believe HA knows its niche and will depend on partnership feeds as it increases its outreach on the mainland, Asia and who knows, with the A-350 perhaps Europe.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2012-07-17 23:15:52 and read 20006 times.

I have a hard time seeing HA in any form doing feeder flights on the East Coast, primarily because they could get another airline to codeshare with at a lower cost (B6) and Hawaii is still an exotic place for most people on the East coast (I'll admit it is getting more popular and accesible) and on the East Coast, we have the luxury of the Caribbean and Mexico being both within easy reach, the West Coast only has Hawaii and Mexico.

I could see HA doing feeder flights on the West coast, similar to what AQ did. Maybe LAX-RNO/TUS or SEA-GEG/BOI. The only problem would be competition.

The perfect name for this new service? Kukini Air by Hawaiian. Kukini meaning a fast messenger. Or perhaps, Wiki Air by Hawaiian, Wiki meaning fast. Just thinking at 215am haha

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: HAL
Posted 2012-07-18 00:39:07 and read 19198 times.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 2):
As for what to call this subsidiary, I hope they don't take the easy way out and call it Hawaiian Express,. Hawaiian Connection or HA Express/HA Connection. Maybe name it after a Hawaiian word for something like voyage, flight, bird, or wind

Going out on a limb here, but maybe... Hawaiian Airlines?

With the brand loyalty and airline identity already well established, I don't see why the airline would call it anything other than HA. Since HA used to fly Shorts and Dash 7's, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to keep the new turboprops part of the mainline family.

HAL

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: koruman
Posted 2012-07-18 01:56:16 and read 18523 times.

Isn't this a fairly straightforward attempt to stitch up the markets to Kapalua and Princeville, both of which now have very substantial numbers of hotel and timeshare beds?

I'm sure that Lanai and Molokai will also be served, but they both have tiny populations and Molokai's hotel industry collapsed a few years ago when Molokai Ranch closed the former Sheraton properties, tentalows and all.

I would guess that at present 95%+ of tourists to Kaanapali and Kapalua fly into Kahului because Island Air's fares are substantially higher. I suppose Hawaiian already gets those fares, but maybe they want to get the other 5% back from Island Air while also charging slightly higher fares than to Kahului.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: francoflier
Posted 2012-07-18 02:11:59 and read 18413 times.

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 24):
Saabs or Emb120's would be in the 30 passenger range, which would be perfect for some of those secondary markets.

Unfortunately, all of those are now thoroughly flown or already parked in a desert somewhere, as much as it saddens me.
But depending on the number of frames, I suppose they could still find a few in good condition somewhere.

There's nothing but the ATR 42 if they go for new frames, and even if they don't, used ATRs will probably be the logical choice. There's no better option for island hopping, although they could also find a few used Q300s or F50s.
Now, that'd be interesting.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: aztrainer
Posted 2012-07-18 06:19:02 and read 16251 times.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 29):
I could see HA doing feeder flights on the West coast, similar to what AQ did. Maybe LAX-RNO/TUS or SEA-GEG/BOI. The only problem would be competition.

I would doubt it as they are again needing the 717's in Hawai'i. Also with something like TUS, it is only 100 miles to the south of PHX and I do not see people flying to RNO and then to LAS or LAX when they simply can drive up I-10.

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 25):
Can't see Island Air surviving or for that matter Mesa who just seems to be hanging on with their fleet of five CRJ 200's.

I am wondering if HA would try to buy out Island Air. They have 6 - Dash 8-100's, 1 - SAAB - 340b and options on 6 ATR-72-212's. This seems to be what they are looking at acquiring.

Maybe this will cause Go! to go away......

Quoting HAL (Reply 30):
Going out on a limb here, but maybe... Hawaiian Airlines?

Agree, if it is not broken, don't fix it.....

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: SWALUV
Posted 2012-07-18 08:30:55 and read 14765 times.

It would be sad to see Island Air go...  

Could it be possible that in the long run Island Air get bought by HA? ( I know a extremely far possibility but that would help them alot)

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: iceberg210
Posted 2012-07-18 10:14:55 and read 13301 times.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 32):
Unfortunately, all of those are now thoroughly flown or already parked in a desert somewhere, as much as it saddens me.

True, however in the case of the EMB120 it is still 'technically' available as it's made on the same line as the ERJ's and Legacys and can be bought in one off variety (and has been). Granted I doubt that'd happen, but I'm still curious why EMB hasn't done a bit of updating (newer engines etc) for the EMB120 and see if they couldn't get a few orders for what is today the only 30 seater on the market. I wonder if Skywest wouldn't be at least somewhat interested.

Is it likely to happen? No not at all! But it is an option, and if I were Hawaiian I'd want to look at the option at least.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: bwphoto
Posted 2012-07-18 10:58:25 and read 12678 times.

FWIW, the Aloha Air Cargo U.S. trademarks are owned of record by Aeko Kula, Inc. CORPORATION HAWAII 371 Aokea Place Honolulu HAWAII 96819

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: northstardc4m
Posted 2012-07-18 11:17:38 and read 12410 times.

The Q400 didn't do very well with Island Air as i recall? They sent it back after 6 months or so?

I see ATRs in HA's future personally. Hawaii puts all the pros into the ATR42 column, not BBD/Q400.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: B6A322
Posted 2012-07-18 11:35:17 and read 12156 times.

I'm lucky enough to be in HNL this week, and read in the star advertiser this morning (not sure of its credibility, but hey its free at the hotel) that the turboprops HA is looking to acquire will be used.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: tjwgrr
Posted 2012-07-18 11:40:16 and read 12073 times.

Quoting B6A322 (Reply 38):
I'm lucky enough to be in HNL this week, and read in the star advertiser this morning (not sure of its credibility, but hey its free at the hotel) that the turboprops HA is looking to acquire will be used.

I'd bet on either the Q300 or ATR42 then.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: T prop
Posted 2012-07-18 11:48:15 and read 11966 times.

ATR42-500. >>>ATR people were in HNL last week.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: Pohakuloa
Posted 2012-07-18 11:54:16 and read 11876 times.

Quoting T prop (Reply 40):
ATR42-500. >>>ATR people were in HNL last week.

So WP will be getting ATR's, HA may be getting ATR's.... I wonder where this will leave Kapalua when the smoke clears...

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: JetBlueGuy2006
Posted 2012-07-18 13:12:00 and read 11030 times.

Saw this on Hawaiinewsnow.com

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/1...-looks-to-boost-interisland-travel

Doesn't sounds like there will be many planes, most likely less than 10; but really to open up smaller routes as has been suggested.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: usxguy
Posted 2012-07-18 14:07:52 and read 10397 times.

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 41):
I wonder where this will leave Kapalua when the smoke clears...

On Caravans!

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-07-18 14:34:51 and read 10284 times.

Quoting richierich (Reply 21):
It depends on which direction they fly, what runways are in-use, etc. I just flew OGG-HNL on a HA B717 and it took about 33 minutes. We departed Maui to the north, then flew down past Molokai toward Oahu, landing at HNL to the north. I imagine the return trip was probably more like your flight,

The really stunning part is that they still manage a (limited) beverage service. I remember being blown away by that. Most airlines wouldn't bother.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: daviation
Posted 2012-07-18 14:38:43 and read 10268 times.

I am flying next week from HNL-JHM. I would have loved to remain on HA for the entire trip from JFK, but HA doesn't currently fly to JHM. So it's WP.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: Jean Leloup
Posted 2012-07-18 14:54:07 and read 10226 times.

Am I the only one that has noticed that the Hawaii News Now link contradicts what has been said above? It does not say that HA will be acquiring props, but rather that they have signed an agreement with a smaller carrier to do T-Prop flying for them:

Hawaiian also announced it's signed a letter of intent with a confidential subsidiary carrier to fly turbo propeller planes to new cities. Details are still being finalized but it could add three to six prop planes with fewer than 50 seats. They may go to places where there is already big change, like Lanai.

Could this be anone other than WP? Seems like HA teaming up with WP to finish off Mesa?

JL

p.s. I love HA and want to see them do well, but let's not forget what a lack of competition will do to fares if they are 'too' successful.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-07-18 16:32:12 and read 10003 times.

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 46):
Could this be anone other than WP? Seems like HA teaming up with WP to finish off Mesa?

JL

p.s. I love HA and want to see them do well, but let's not forget what a lack of competition will do to fares if they are 'too' successful.

Yep. High fares will attract a new entrant. I love HA, but without competition... ugh. Friends are starting to fly 'further out' as the vacation costs are net the same as Hawaii for a non-short vacations (say a week) once hotel, food, and airfare are combined. I want HA and Hawaii to do well. But part of the fun of a Hawaiian vacation is island hopping. The market has this amazing ability to adjust and new vacation spots open every year it seams (e.g., Costa Rica is very popular among those who feel 'priced out' of Hawaii).

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: ElpinDAB
Posted 2012-07-18 21:27:47 and read 9597 times.

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 42):
Hawaiinewsnow.com

Major blow from the article: "Hawaiian also announced it's signed a letter of intent with a confidential subsidiary carrier to fly turbo propeller planes to new cities."

Not really surprising, but it sounds like this will be outsourced flying.
My pessimistic outlook is that Hawaiian has finally succumbed to the influence of the lower 48 and is now having to outsource to compete. I hope you HA pilots have a strong scope, or this might actually eat into your 717 flying. The guise is always good, but it progresses towards the worst from there.

How else can HA compete within these small markets? Why outsource?

Quoting HAL (Reply 30):

Thoughts?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: HAL
Posted 2012-07-18 21:36:06 and read 9568 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
I want HA and Hawaii to do well. But part of the fun of a Hawaiian vacation is island hopping.


An airplane flight is an airplane flight, no matter how short it is. That first foot off the runway takes the vast majority of the fare. I've said it many times here, but the fixed costs for an airline are huge, and even if they fly really short flights like HA, you still have to charge enough to make back the cost, with a small profit too. That honestly puts the fares for an airline like HA in the $70 range each way to make it doable.

When you figure in the costs that don't vary with flight length, you get gate rental, landing fees, ticket counter rental, ground service staff salaries, maintenance staff salaries, spare parts costs, per-cycle maintenance costs, per-cycle insurance costs, per-cycle wear (like tires), office rental, training department (simulator, staff, & instructor) costs, administrative staff salaries, and advertising. Then the actual flight costs are much higher per mile, because the pilots & FA's are paid per hour, and since the average speed of the short flights is less, they're paid more per mile than long-haul crew. The planes also cost more because they use relatively more fuel & have higher maintenance costs on a short flight because most of the engine & airframe wear & tear, along with fuel usage, is accomplished on the takeoff and climbout.

Yes, people in Hawaii are still clamoring for $9 fares, or $19 fares, or $29 fares. They simply won't look at the reality that it costs the airline a lot of money to get you the 100 miles from Honolulu to Kahului. The history of Hawaiian aviation is littered with dead airlines, most of whom succumbed to the siren song of charging really low fares, which ended up killing them. If you want HA to succeed, they'll need to charge what it costs to fly from A to B. Period.

Quoting daviation (Reply 45):
I am flying next week from HNL-JHM. I would have loved to remain on HA for the entire trip from JFK, but HA doesn't currently fly to JHM. So it's WP.

Fly here again next year, and it may be different.  

HAL

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: HAL
Posted 2012-07-18 21:40:55 and read 9549 times.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 48):
Quoting HAL (Reply 30):


Thoughts?

Yes, we have strong scope. No turboprop flying for us, code-share or in-house, will fly the routes currently flown by the 717. This is part of our contract as well as the FA's. These planes will be flying routes that are either too thin for the 717, or to airports that can't handle the jets.

HAL

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: B6A322
Posted 2012-07-18 23:42:49 and read 9313 times.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 48):

This also contradicts what was in the Star this morning, should have summarized earlier, but:

1. As of this point, there is only an MoU for the aircraft
2. The aircraft will be used, not new
3. The aircraft flown will be 69 seats or less
4. There were some hints of a "sister carrier" i.e "Hawaiian to found sister carrier..."
5. Doesn't really sound like any outsourcing will be done - according to the CCO this has been in the works for upwards of 6-7 years now, as management was careful about being fair to the employees and determining what the contracts say, etc.

That's all there is for now.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-07-19 05:48:13 and read 8970 times.

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 11):
Quoting francoflier (Reply 32):
There's nothing but the ATR 42 if they go for new frames, and even if they don't, used ATRs will probably be the logical choice.

They were a nice plane to fly Inter Island on Mahalo.

Quoting B6A322 (Reply 38):
the turboprops HA is looking to acquire will be used
Quoting aztrainer (Reply 33):
I am wondering if HA would try to buy out Island Air. They have 6 - Dash 8-100's, 1 - SAAB - 340b and options on 6 ATR-72-212's. This seems to be what they are looking at acquiring.

I'd love to see Island Air become part of HA, the Dash 8's would be perfect for the lift HA is looking for to MKK, LNY & JHM, the Saab 340 could be parked or dumped, and if the Dash 8's work, maybe taking the options on the ATR-72's would allow them to add seats to a then, developed market. I think it's further fetched to think HA will show at Kamuela or Princeville.

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 33):
Maybe this will cause Go! to go away

From your lips to Gods ears. Only problem I see is, if HA buys WP, and go, goes away, what competition will HA ever have in the Inter Island market again? It will allow HA to charges whatever they want for flights between the Islands.

Or would someone else try to tap the market to keep HA honest, maybe QX flying for AS Inter Island or a new carrier, but that hasn't worked for anyone else, Aloha, Mahalo, Discovery to name a few.

Hawaiian also announced it's signed a letter of intent with a confidential subsidiary carrier to fly turbo propeller planes to new cities. Details are still being finalized but it could add three to six prop planes with fewer than 50 seats. They may go to places where there is already big change, like Lanai.

"It might be an interesting time in Lanai," said Ingram. "Because it's not economically feasible to operate our jet aircraft we're not operating today to Lanai, Molokai, West Maui and those are the sorts of places we would be considering."

Ingram says the expansion has been in the works for years and insists the timing is coincidental with the sale of Lanai to billionaire Larry Ellison.

It may be a few more weeks before the new turbo prop plane routes are officially announced.

Add up to six prop planes, Island Air has six Dash 8's, It says HA signed the intent letter with a subsidiary carrier, the Dash 8's already fly to MKK, LNY and JHM. I think since MKK and LNY are in Maui county, thet HA shold have OGG-LNY/MKK flights, plus HA is trying to operate OGG as a transit hub, they added frequencies to OGG-ITO/KOA already.
I fully expect flights from OGG to LNY/MKK. I once flew a Twin Otter JHM-OGG, flight was ten mins and cost ten bucks on Island Air. I doubt HA would find any value in flying such a route, even if it's connecting JHM pax via OGG to the mainland. Looks like we'll know for sure in a few weeks or less. Sweet, once again HA makes a smart move to be the 900 pound gorilla in Hawaii, they needed to add those two other Islands and Kapalua.

[Edited 2012-07-19 06:10:15]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: aztrainer
Posted 2012-07-19 07:25:30 and read 8848 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 52):
From your lips to Gods ears. Only problem I see is, if HA buys WP, and go, goes away, what competition will HA ever have in the Inter Island market again? It will allow HA to charges whatever they want for flights between the Islands.



That is a good question. It seems that HA has signed a agreement with WP to provide the prop service. This should allow some cost savings for both sides as HA gets a "feeder" and outlet partner to the areas where they have been unable tp service. WP gets a partner with the connections to the mainland and the larger inter-island market.

How much of the inter-island market does Go! hold now? I know that Go! has kept the price in check to some extent, but I also think that the inter-island market cannot exponentially increase. One of the biggest difference between flying to Hawai'i now and 20 years ago is that there were few direct flight to OGG, ITO, KOA and LIH. I can get on a plane in PHX and never go to PHX.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-07-19 11:09:21 and read 8582 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 52):
They were a nice plane to fly Inter Island on Mahalo.

And the ATR has served American Eagle and Cape Air well in the Caribbean and Pacific respectively. I don't know the packing habits of Hawaiians and tourists who frequent these smaller destinations, but the ATR could be especially suitable if they are cargo heavy.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-07-19 12:01:39 and read 8476 times.

If they are buying used, I think the choice will come down to whatever they can get 6-10 of, for a reasonable price and in reasonable shape...and that should be pretty tough. I don't think there are a lot of used T-Props not in service.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: Bluewave 707
Posted 2012-07-19 16:00:35 and read 8276 times.

WP has 3 Dash8-100s, 1 leased SF340B, with 3 ATR72s on order, and options for 3 more.

N809WP was withdrawn a couple of months ago. Only N805WP, N806WP, and N829EX are in the fleet.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-07-19 23:22:10 and read 7901 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
And the ATR has served American Eagle and Cape Air well in the Caribbean and Pacific respectively. I don't know the packing habits of Hawaiians and tourists who frequent these smaller destinations, but the ATR could be especially suitable if they are cargo heavy

I have travelled with local Hawaiian groups Inter Island before, and they check in coolers full of food, especially to places like MKK or LNY, where what you can obtain locally is limited, so people fly over to HNL or OGG, shop at Costco and fly back, I know that's how it used to be in the years of free baggage. I've been on planes with tires being loaded in the cargo.

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 56):
WP has 3 Dash8-100s, 1 leased SF340B, with 3 ATR72s on order, and options for 3 more.

N809WP was withdrawn a couple of months ago. Only N805WP, N806WP, and N829EX are in the fleet

You know I thought this could be the aircraft HA is going to look at, except, why would HA wish to compete with WP in markets WP has dominated for years with little to no competition, using the cast off aircraft from WP, while WP flies nice shiny new ATR's? I will admit the timing of the HA & WP announcements are very suspicious.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-07-20 08:18:21 and read 7638 times.

Aviation Week has a story about this now.

Primary points:
o LOI signed on aircraft
o Small number 3-6
o Aircraft purchased not leased
o Pilot contract allows sub 69 seats prop ops
o But looking at fewer than 50 seat aircraft


http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_07_20_2012_p01-02-478356.xml

=

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2012-07-20 10:52:10 and read 7474 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 58):
Aviation Week has a story about this now.

Primary points:
o LOI signed on aircraft
o Small number 3-6
o Aircraft purchased not leased
o Pilot contract allows sub 69 seats prop ops
o But looking at fewer than 50 seat aircraft

Fifty seats or less and the number of aircraft would seem to indicate they are not really going to attack WP across the board, but probably focus on JHM, Lanai and Molokai to HNL. WP's new strategy seems to be to develop more direct service between the neighbor islands. Too early to know for sure, but as more information appears, if this is a move on WP it's certainly less than a full frontal attack.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: aztrainer
Posted 2012-07-20 17:00:51 and read 7273 times.

Quoting HNL-Jack" class="quote" target="_blank">HNL-Jack (Reply 59):
Fifty seats or less and the number of aircraft would seem to indicate they are not really going to attack WP across the board, but probably focus on JHM, Lanai and Molokai to HNL. WP's new strategy seems to be to develop more direct service between the neighbor islands. Too early to know for sure, but as more information appears, if this is a move on WP it's certainly less than a full frontal attack.

Could it be that HA is getting there feet wet and learning the nuances of turboprops? Use this as an experiment and if it happens to work will for HA they could add the cross island traffic like OGG-ITO, OGG-KOA, KOA-ITO. OGG-HNM, OGG-MKK These are routes not served by anyone to my knowledge and I think could be a good plan to not have all traffic go through HNL.

On a side note, would they ever do a KOA-ITO flight?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: azjubilee
Posted 2012-07-20 17:28:42 and read 7216 times.

HA has operated turbo-props in the past, so this business development is hardly "getting their feet wet."

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-07-20 18:52:40 and read 7122 times.

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 60):
Could it be that HA is getting there feet wet and learning the nuances of turboprops

A long time ago SD-330's and Dash - 7's flew in HA colors, I liked the overwing design for good sightseeing with those beautiful Islands and Ocean as the vivid backdrop of your journey, the twin otters Island air had were fun like that too.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: aztrainer
Posted 2012-07-20 19:36:09 and read 7064 times.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 61):
HA has operated turbo-props in the past, so this business development is hardly "getting their feet wet."

Yes, that is true, but that was also in 2004. I was talking about "getting their feet wet" as learning the new aspects of this transportation class before they possibility add more or try to go after WP's market share.

I do not know if the management of today's Hawaiian Airlines is/are the same ones that were around in 2004.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: penguinflies
Posted 2012-07-20 19:51:26 and read 7057 times.

They could always go with the DHC-6-400 new for around $3.5 million vs a Q400 at $25 million.

Island Air brought in the Q400 and found it was too big in the market at their introduction...did they sell them or are they still owned and sub-leased to other carriers?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: gigneil
Posted 2012-07-20 20:12:34 and read 7021 times.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 48):
My pessimistic outlook is that Hawaiian has finally succumbed to the influence of the lower 48 and is now having to outsource to compete. I hope you HA pilots have a strong scope, or this might actually eat into your 717 flying

Yep. I hope you guys have a strong scope, you're going to want to crush your employer's ability to compete right away!

Get on it, soldiers!

NS

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: ha763
Posted 2012-07-20 21:12:10 and read 6966 times.

Quoting penguinflies (Reply 64):
Island Air brought in the Q400 and found it was too big in the market at their introduction.

The Q400 wasn't too big for the market. There was too much competition. WP got the Q400 soon after they were sold by AQ and they were going to use it to compete with HA and AQ on the trunk routes. However, go! soon started and flooded the market with extremely low fares. WP could not afford to compete with those fares and returned the Q400 to the lessor. This was also the same time when WP was offering business jet charters.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-07-21 02:30:51 and read 6773 times.

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 60):
Could it be that HA is getting there feet wet and learning the nuances of turboprops? Use this as an experiment and if it happens to work will for HA they could add the cross island traffic like OGG-ITO, OGG-KOA, KOA-ITO. OGG-HNM, OGG-MKK These are routes not served by anyone to my knowledge and I think could be a good plan to not have all traffic go through HNL.

HA serves OGG-ITO/KOA, OGG-MKK is operated by WP according to their website route map, which makes sense as MKK and LNY are in Maui county, and in order to do some county business, residents on both Islands may need to get to OGG to complete business. I would imagine there is a small amount of mail and some goods that come from Maui. I could see a LNY-OGG direct, right now I think WP offers a LNY-MKK-OGG flight, MKK-LNY is a short route I've flown before on a HA D95 for all of 10 mins.

ITO-KOA has been flown by AQ, HA and WP and no one does now, so even though it's a rather long drive (at least 4 hours IIRC) I don't think people would fly this route enough to warrant a dedicated flight. And as far as HNM goes, I'd expect Princeville before HNM, even Island Air had twin otters that flew OGG-HNM at one time and that few seats were too many.

A route I flew that was quite awesome was JHM-OGG, on a Island Air Twin Otter, it was way cheaper than a cab from Ka'anapali to Kahalui where we flew out of to the mainland, it was $10.00 one way and went around the top of Maui along the coastline and took about 12-13 minutes, the plane was flying HNL-JHM-OGG and was packed, and most people were flying the leg to connect to mainland flights out of OGG.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: IMissPiedmont
Posted 2012-07-21 05:39:13 and read 6671 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
The Dash-8-400 doesn't seem like a good replacement for the B717...

The Dash 8 is a much better airplane than the 717 for the inter-island service. Flights of 500 miles or less make no sense to use a pure jet on. But then I have to admit that the flying public is a bit stupid and thinks there is something better if you cannot see the props.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-07-21 07:28:10 and read 6538 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 58):
But looking at fewer than 50 seat aircraft

Wonder if it might be Q300s?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2012-07-21 09:02:42 and read 6478 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 65):
Yep. I hope you guys have a strong scope, you're going to want to crush your employer's ability to compete right away!

Get on it, soldiers!

Mark Dunkerly, the HA President has his commercial certificate and an excellent relationship with the pilots and for that matter, all employee groups. The employees of HA were on the verge of losing their jobs for decades before Mark came along and realize the value of management with vision and genunine concern for all employees. You'll not see or find tactics such as you suggest at HA. If employee groups have a problem, more than likely, they will simply stop by Marks office and talk it out. HA is one team all pulling together and successfully creating a U.S. airline that is proud of its heritage and provides terrific service. Rare in the U.S., I know.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: HAL
Posted 2012-07-21 23:07:33 and read 5974 times.

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 63):
I do not know if the management of today's Hawaiian Airlines is/are the same ones that were around in 2004.

Not too many of the management team from that era is here, but almost all the pilots the flew the Dash-7 and the mechanics that worked on them are still around. And it wasn't 2004 that HA ended the Dash flying, but closer to 1994.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 65):
Yep. I hope you guys have a strong scope, you're going to want to crush your employer's ability to compete right away!

Get on it, soldiers!

No, that's okay. I'd rather have management replace us with low-wage new-hires so they can put us out on the street, begging for a handout.  

If you don't understand the purpose of scope, then don't comment on it. Our union has provided the company with the ability (through the scope clause) to purchase and fly turboprops under 69 seats, and fly them as a separate unit, as long as they don't cause a reduction in the hours flown by the current 717 fleet, and don't fly on the same routes as the 717's. It's a win-win, as our jobs aren't sold off, and the airline gets to expand into markets where the 717 can't fly.

Not everything should be at the whim of the company, just as the company shouldn't have its economic future jeopardized by the workers. That's why a mutually agreed-upon contract is good for both sides.

HAL

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: Canflight
Posted 2012-07-21 23:29:39 and read 5916 times.

i think Island Air will give them a run for their money http://www.islandairgroup.com

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-07-23 02:19:48 and read 5329 times.

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 70):
Mark Dunkerly, the HA President has his commercial certificate and an excellent relationship with the pilots and for that matter, all employee groups. The employees of HA were on the verge of losing their jobs for decades before Mark came along and realize the value of management with vision and genunine concern for all employees. You'll not see or find tactics such as you suggest at HA. If employee groups have a problem, more than likely, they will simply stop by Marks office and talk it out. HA is one team all pulling together and successfully creating a U.S. airline that is proud of its heritage and provides terrific service. Rare in the U.S., I know.

Which is why HA is thriving with happy employees (at least the ones I come in contact with while flying HA) and the legacies are struggling in comparison. Flying HA, I feel part of the O'Hana and you don't get that from unhappy employees.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: queb
Posted 2012-07-23 02:33:00 and read 5361 times.

Per Jon Ostrower last week on Twitter:

BREAKING: *WSJ: Hawaii's Island Air Selects ATR Prop Aircraft For New Fleet

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/226093236769415169

But I'm not sure if it's the same company...

[Edited 2012-07-23 02:34:54]

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: aztrainer
Posted 2012-07-23 05:36:07 and read 5204 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 71):

Not too many of the management team from that era is here, but almost all the pilots the flew the Dash-7 and the mechanics that worked on them are still around. And it wasn't 2004 that HA ended the Dash flying, but closer to 1994.

Thank You...

With the pilots that flew them still being around, I would take it that they are very senior now and probably have transferred to the 767 and 330. Do you think that HA would ask them to fly some of these segments if they have time? Or would they simply hire new pilots to fill these spots?

I know that I would assume that it would be new pilots, but there are some guys that like flying the props.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: HAL
Posted 2012-07-23 15:48:10 and read 4847 times.

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 75):
Do you think that HA would ask them to fly some of these segments if they have time? Or would they simply hire new pilots to fill these spots?

I'm sure that the turboprops would be flown almost entirely by new-hires. One, we are only trained on one type of aircraft at a time. Going to the props would mean giving up your seat on the jet. And, Two, pay scales would be dramatically lower on the props because that is what the industry pays, and is partly the reason why the company wants them - lower costs. There may be a few very junior people who would bid for the props if their choice was to be a 717 FO or prop Captain, but it wouldn't be very many.

There are probably several options available to HA now too, from buying another carrier, to code-share, to starting from the ground up with a new certificate. I don't know if the decision has been made, and how that works out could change the whole discussion of crews, seniority, and pay.

HAL

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: fpetrutiu
Posted 2012-07-23 17:16:07 and read 4724 times.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 68):
The Dash 8 is a much better airplane than the 717 for the inter-island service. Flights of 500 miles or less make no sense to use a pure jet on. But then I have to admit that the flying public is a bit stupid and thinks there is something better if you cannot see the props.

I think the key for HA, more than any other carrier, is frequency not neccessarily how big it is. I presume the ATR42 will be the clear winner here. With the short hops, the Q400 will not present much of an advantage in terms of speed and the ATR has much lower fuel burn than the Q. Q's are great when you can squeeze in another trip in the day when compared to the ATR, however, with such short hops in the inter-island flying I doubt that would be possible.

I agree, the general public is really dumb when it come to props. I had a friend who flew a basically brand new ATR72 (with Tarom) and got off the plane and said "Thanks God that 50 year old plane acctually still flies". When I asked why he thinks it's old, he said "can't you see??? it still has propellers for God sake"...

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-07-23 17:21:19 and read 4700 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 71):
If you don't understand the purpose of scope, then don't comment on it. Our union has provided the company with the ability (through the scope clause) to purchase and fly turboprops under 69 seats, and fly them as a separate unit, as long as they don't cause a reduction in the hours flown by the current 717 fleet, and don't fly on the same routes as the 717's. It's a win-win, as our jobs aren't sold off, and the airline gets to expand into markets where the 717 can't fly.

Bravo.

I wonder if "gigneil" is anxious to outsource his job.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: milesrich
Posted 2012-07-23 23:20:28 and read 4530 times.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 68):
The Dash 8 is a much better airplane than the 717 for the inter-island service. Flights of 500 miles or less make no sense to use a pure jet on. But then I have to admit that the flying public is a bit stupid and thinks there is something better if you cannot see the props.

I will agree from an operational standpoint that turboprops probably make more sense on flights under 300 miles, but 500 miles, I find that difficult to believe. If we had aircraft today like the L-188 Electra, I think the public could be sold on them, but regional turboprops that seat 50 or less people, or aircraft like the ATR-72 which might be a little bigger but are slow are not going to replace jets if passengers are given a choice.

And there are a few reasons. First of all on relatively short flights, turboprops fly at lower altitudes, where they are more susceptible to weather, or just bumpy air in the summer months, and passengers do not like that. Even if they get to a higher cruising altitude, they take longer getting there. Secondly, there have been some rather infamous accidents involving shortfall turboprops. Prior to regionals getting jets, their was a big reluctance for people to fly on them generally, and it was based on the Beech 99's, Shorts 330 & 360's, Embrear E-110, and other unpressurized aircraft. But go back to the 60's and 70's when the former feeders introduced the DC-9, BAC-111, and the 737, passengers preferred those aircraft overwhelmingly over F-27's, FH-227's, Martins, and Convairs. The 580 was pretty fast, but ask any frequent flyer, if they preferred a DC-9 to a CV-580, the jet would win out everytime. And the regionals of the 80's and 90's did not replace EMB-120's, SAAB 340's, ATR's and Dash 8's with RJ's because of any great economic advantages, they did it because passengers perferred the RJ.

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-07-24 00:50:23 and read 4449 times.

I doubt the HA announcement for turboprops and Island Air's announcement ared not entirely unrelated, considering the timing of the releases, same day or 1 day apart tops, right? I think there is something that will reveal what that relation may be. It's a big change in a short time for Inter Island aviation.

Personally I've loved all the prop flights I've taken between the Islands DHT's, DH7, SD330, DH8's come to mind, forgot what Air Molokai used in the late 70's early 80's, these lower flying flights gave better scenic views, and maybe an extra couple of minutes to take it all in, even the DS 146's would be nice for the planes overwing design and better viewing, but louder than any other jet I've flown, how long did Discovery last, a couple months?

Topic: RE: Hawaiian Air To Purchase Turboprops...
Username: HNLPointShoot
Posted 2012-07-24 01:41:30 and read 4413 times.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 68):
The Dash 8 is a much better airplane than the 717 for the inter-island service. Flights of 500 miles or less make no sense to use a pure jet on. But then I have to admit that the flying public is a bit stupid and thinks there is something better if you cannot see the props.

A Q400 with all-Y seats (like what AS/QX have) will only fit 76 seats, while HA's 717s will fit 123 in an 8F/115Y configuration. HA already flies 18 717s, so maintaining that capacity would call for at least 29-30 Q400s (not accounting for additional aircraft that would be needed if HA installs F seats like the ones in the 717s), and flight frequencies would go from an already high 16-20 flights/day per HNL route (to OGG/LIH/KOA/ITO) to 26-33 flights/day per HNL route. The multi-million dollar question at that point is whether or not the additional frequencies and fuel savings are worth the major increases in labor costs (from having to provide more flight crews) that would result from having a numerically larger fleet, even though capacity remains the same.

My sense is that HA has done the numbers repeatedly on that, and concluded that offering more frequencies with smaller aircraft does not make sense when frequencies are already averaging less than 90 minutes between flights from HNL to each of the Neighbor Island airports.


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