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Topic: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: 30west
Posted 2012-08-02 19:45:34 and read 12027 times.

Just heard the pilots at UAL and the company came to an agreement today to be announced late tonight or early tomorrow AM. Good news for all I hope.

30west

[Edited 2012-08-02 19:48:53]

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: mbm3
Posted 2012-08-02 19:52:22 and read 11972 times.

That is good news for all involved. Get it done and let us all move on!!

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: mbm3
Posted 2012-08-02 20:26:47 and read 11747 times.

From Bloomberg:

United Continental Holdings Inc. (UAL) reached a tentative contract agreement with union pilots, moving the world’s largest airline closer to integrating its workforce after the 2010 merger that formed the company, two people familiar with the matter said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...-with-pilots-union.html?cmpid=yhoo

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: phxa340
Posted 2012-08-02 20:31:06 and read 11718 times.

HP/US , pay attention !  

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: DualQual
Posted 2012-08-02 20:38:40 and read 11645 times.

Before everyone gets too far ahead of themselves, there are still a few time consuming steps. It is an agreement in principle. Final language still must be written. That will take several weeks (at least). Then comes MEC review then a vote by the rank and file. We're probably looking at anywhere from 2-4 months before anyone even knows if we have a contract. Only then will work start on integrating the seniority lists (another time consuming venture). Probably still a year before any mixed flying occurs.

That said, at least there is some potentially positive news for a change.

[Edited 2012-08-02 20:39:57]

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: HNL-Jack
Posted 2012-08-02 21:28:18 and read 11407 times.

Let's hope that this is a sign that finally the workforce can come together and work together to make UA the fine airline it should and can be.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: HAL
Posted 2012-08-02 22:07:45 and read 11279 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 3):
HP/US , pay attention !

It would take a lot more than paying attention. The former US pilots (east) are simply not interested in negotiating anything that involves putting a single west pilot ahead of the bottom east pilot. If that means sitting on their hands and not negotiating a new contract, so be it. They would - quite honestly - rather burn their careers and the airline to the ground rather than admit that the luck of the draw put them into an airline with a long upgrade time and bad management. I've known a few east pilots as well as west. I've never met a bigger bunch of hot-headed, short-sighted, and narrow-focused people in my lifetime as the east pilots (as a whole).

HAL

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: sldispatcher
Posted 2012-08-03 01:32:46 and read 10626 times.

Will be very interesting to see what the following answers are:

1. Scope

2. Aircraft orders to follow if affected/allowed by #1.

3. Reaction by pilot groups at other airlines.

4. Reaction by sensible pilots at UA as well as the hard core union folks.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: UnitedTristar
Posted 2012-08-03 04:54:06 and read 9998 times.

This is GREAT!!! I thought perhaps the EI flight drop was an indicator we were close!!

Couldn't be more thrilled!!

-m

  

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-08-03 05:17:50 and read 9858 times.

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 7):
1. Scope

2. Aircraft orders to follow if affected/allowed by #1.

Hoping for a C-series or ERJ-190/195 order for mainline to finally replace the 737-300s and 737-500s.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: boeing727
Posted 2012-08-03 05:41:45 and read 9703 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 7):
1. Scope

2. Aircraft orders to follow if affected/allowed by #1.

Hoping for a C-series or ERJ-190/195 order for mainline to finally replace the 737-300s and 737-500s.

Flown by mainline pilots...

Boeing727

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-08-03 05:45:54 and read 9663 times.

Quoting boeing727 (Reply 10):
Flown by mainline pilots...

Absolutely.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2012-08-03 05:47:41 and read 9644 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
for mainline to finally replace the 737-300s


The 737-300's have been gone for some time now.

Quoting boeing727 (Reply 10):
Flown by mainline pilots...


For sure!

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-08-03 05:49:45 and read 9616 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 12):
The 737-300's have been gone for some time now.


The last CO 733 flight was barely two years ago:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...478&s=last+CO+733+flight#ID4768478

[Edited 2012-08-03 05:52:29]

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-08-03 05:55:39 and read 9569 times.

CO alone had 60+ 737-300s and 60+ 737-500s, not sure how large UA's 733/735 was but I'm sure it was identical if not larger than CO's.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2012-08-03 06:02:25 and read 9526 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):
The last CO 733 flight was barely two years ago:


When you're as old as I two years is "some time ago"!  
Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
CO alone had 60+ 737-300s and 60+ 737-500s, not sure how large UA's 733/735 was but I'm sure it was identical if not larger than CO's.


All true, and flown by mainline pilots. I probably flew on most of the CO 300/500 ships over the past 24 years.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: United1
Posted 2012-08-03 06:37:50 and read 9261 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
CO alone had 60+ 737-300s and 60+ 737-500s, not sure how large UA's 733/735 was but I'm sure it was identical if not larger than CO's.

Prior to BK UA had 101 737-300 and 57 737-500. They parked around 60 of them during BK and retired the remainder during the oil run-up of 2008. It would be nice to see a C-series or Embraer aircraft on property as UA Mainline.

Looks like there are a few more minor details to work out but they have agreed on wages and scope which we all knew would be the most difficult parts.

Here is the official notification from ALPA...

https://crewroom.alpa.org/ual/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=48862

...and from United.

http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings....-newsArticle&ID=1722208&highlight=

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: United787
Posted 2012-08-03 06:56:36 and read 9128 times.

Great news, hopefully it can be finalized in a timely manner.

It would be amazing if the EMB scope was brought into mainline but I am not holding my breath.

Is this the last union group that needs to get a new merged contract? If not, which ones need to be worked out?

I think 2012 will prove to be a tough year for the UA and the merger but I am optimistic that things are falling into place and will turn around (especially customer side of things) before 2013.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2012-08-03 07:18:12 and read 8935 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 6):

I realize this is opening a proverbial can of worms, but are you really saying that East pilots don't want ANY West pilots to be ahead of ANY of them? That seems a little odd that they wouldn't see how ludicrous it would be if I'm a 5-year East pilot and you're a 20-year West pilot and somehow I'm supposed to be ahead of you in a combined company. Ties and near ties I can understand why there is room for negotiation, but any pilots seems a bit extreme.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: superjeff
Posted 2012-08-03 07:34:40 and read 8791 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 6):
It would take a lot more than paying attention. The former US pilots (east) are simply not interested in negotiating anything that involves putting a single west pilot ahead of the bottom east pilot. If that means sitting on their hands and not negotiating a new contract, so be it. They would - quite honestly - rather burn their careers and the airline to the ground rather than admit that the luck of the draw put them into an airline with a long upgrade time and bad management. I've known a few east pilots as well as west. I've never met a bigger bunch of hot-headed, short-sighted, and narrow-focused people in my lifetime as the east pilots (as a whole).

HAL

What a shame. For all the issues with Doug Parker, if it weren't for HP, there wouldn't be any US anymore. They were essentially without options. They should be thankful that they still have jobs (and I am one of the folks out here that prefer to fly with the East crews rather than the west)

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2012-08-03 07:36:30 and read 8770 times.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Hoping for a C-series or ERJ-190/195 order for mainline to finally replace the 737-300s and 737-500s.

Don't hold your breath. Airline management is coming to realize that 100 seaters are difficult to operate at mainline cost scale. Mainline economics don't really start getting good till you hit 120+ seats.

You'll notice that DL didn't rush out to buy a 100 seater. They are picking up 717's but that's because they are cheap since they are used. And the 717 is on the high end of the E190/C-Series scale in terms of size.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-08-03 07:50:24 and read 8647 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
Mainline economics don't really start getting good till you hit 120+ seats.

That's the CS300 configured in a two class configuration.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-08-03 08:08:42 and read 8502 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 17):
Is this the last union group that needs to get a new merged contract? If not, which ones need to be worked out?

No. It's quite the opposite actually; the pilots would be the first workgroup to have a joint contract.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: United787
Posted 2012-08-03 08:14:37 and read 8437 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 22):
No. It's quite the opposite actually; the pilots would be the first workgroup to have a joint contract.

It is safe to say this is typically the most challenging? If this gets worked, so should the others?

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: 01pewterz28
Posted 2012-08-03 08:29:55 and read 8325 times.

From our ALPA MEC

United, Continental Pilots Reach Agreement-In-Principle On New Contract
Chicago and Houston, August 3, 2012--The pilots of United and Continental Airlines,
after more than two years of negotiating with the company for a joint collective
bargaining agreement, and with the assistance of the National Mediation Board (NMB),
have reached an agreement-in-principle (AIP) with United Continental Holdings, Inc.,
on most major economic issues. While some details of an agreement still remain
open, the pilots are confident a final AIP can be worked out in the coming days.
“After working under a bankruptcy contract for nearly 10 years, the substantial
contributions of the pilots in helping United Airlines survive its darkest economic days
and make the United/Continental merger possible will, at last, be respected and
rewarded,” said Captain Jay Heppner, chairman of the United Master Executive
Council of the Air Line Pilots Association. “This pilot group has endured more than its
share of sacrifices since 9/11. We have flown through the airline’s bankruptcy, taking
drastic pay cuts and losing our pensions. We’ve witnessed the loss of thousands of
United pilot jobs through outsourcing and off-shoring.
“This is a great win for the pilots, a great win for the American people, a great win
for those who put safety first in America, and a great win for U.S. jobs. Once today’s
agreements are finalized and approved by our membership, we look forward to
getting to work under this new agreement and doing what we do best, which is
providing United customers with a safe and comfortable traveling experience.
“We stand at the threshold of a new day at United Airlines and we are ready to join
forces with our Continental brethren to help build the new United into the world’s
preeminent airline.”
“After many years of enduring the hardships of concessionary and bankruptcy-era
contracts, we are pleased to have finally reached an agreement that will allow our
pilots and their families to see gains in compensation, work rules, job protections,
and retirement and benefits,” said Captain Jay Pierce, chairman of the ALPA unit
representing Continental pilots. “Our pilots must be recognized for the hundreds of
millions of dollars in annual givebacks that ultimately allowed our airline to remain
competitive, prosper and avoid the economic turmoil that befell others in the
industry. Further, they deserve to be recognized for their role in building the success
of the company and for the role they will play in the success of the merger of equals
with United. We are pleased to be able to move forward with true progress towards
completion of the merger of our airlines. Once there is pilot approval of this contract,
the operations of the two airlines can finally begin to be integrated for the ultimate
benefit of our passengers, pilots and United employees, and shareholders. We can
begin to deliver on the promise of the world’s largest and best airline.”
Negotiations for the JCBA have been under the supervision of the National Mediation
Board (NMB). Terms of the agreement must now be converted into a tentative
agreement (TA). Until that process is complete, details of the TA will not be released.
The TA will be presented independently to ALPA’s governing bodies for each of the
Continental and United pilot groups for consideration. If approved, it will be sent to
the pilots of both carriers for a combined ratification vote.
The Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA) is the largest airline
pilot union in the world and represents more than 53,000 pilots at 37 U.S. and
Canadian airlines. There are approximately 7,000 pilots at United and 5,000 pilots
at Continental Airlines.
###
Contacts:
Dave Kelly, United Master Executive Council
847/292-1708
david.kelly@alpa.org
Amy Flanagan, Continental United Master Executive

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-08-03 09:15:43 and read 8368 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 17):
Is this the last union group that needs to get a new merged contract? If not, which ones need to be worked out?

This would be the first JCBA.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
Mainline economics don't really start getting good till you hit 120+ seats.

In reality it's more like 160+ seats, but the smaller (120ish) jets are a network necessity.

Quoting 01pewterz28 (Reply 24):
“This pilot group has endured more than its
share of sacrifices since 9/11. We have flown through the airline’s bankruptcy, taking
drastic pay cuts and losing our pensions. We’ve witnessed the loss of thousands of
United pilot jobs through outsourcing and off-shoring.

I like how they make it sound like they are the only ones who suffered.   

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-08-03 09:35:33 and read 8152 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 25):
I like how they make it sound like they are the only ones who suffered.

Where does it say that? I certainly don't take it that way. Is there anything in that statement (about concessions, etc.) that you believe to be untrue?

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-08-03 10:14:38 and read 8121 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 26):
Where does it say that? I certainly don't take it that way. Is there anything in that statement (about concessions, etc.) that you believe to be untrue?

C'mon, it is an obvious rallying cry. The same thing that has been said for the last 10 years "we want our pre-BK contract back".

To your point, it is interesting how you limited the statement about things being untrue only to the concessions piece, because you know that there are several debatably factual statements in there. ie THOUSANDS of jobs lost to outsourcing and off-shoring. On a tangent, what is the % pay cut that the pilots took?

I want I pilot agreement and I want it ASAP, but we all need to be honest with ourselves in the process. Management lost their pensions in BK too, it's not like only the Pilots/Unions suffered, and some people seem to forget that we're all in the same boat.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: 01pewterz28
Posted 2012-08-03 11:39:12 and read 7552 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 26):

We suffered enough lost pensions, pay, job security you name it we have endured it at United we just want to be on an even playing field. Why should be not be looking out to protect our jobs why should be not be upset that Management feels it ok to grant themselves nice bonuses yet we get nothing. Step into our shoes and you will understand we have been going through this BS since the 80's. And before you mention ESOP even during ESOP it was never an even playing field management continued to keep us out of the loop.

This is to protect both PM UA Pilots and PM CO pilots so in the end we can all work together on an even playing field.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-08-03 12:08:57 and read 7345 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 27):
To your point, it is interesting how you limited the statement about things being untrue only to the concessions piece, because you know that there are several debatably factual statements in there. ie THOUSANDS of jobs lost to outsourcing and off-shoring. On a tangent, what is the % pay cut that the pilots took?

I don't recall what percent in pay UA pilots took. As I recall, CO pilots lost 9% in pay rate initially and lost other paid issues as well (like "International Over-ride."). My best friend (recently retired from the 777) claimed that he lost 40% (W2 vs. W2) and much of that was due to scheduling changes. And that doesn't even begin to address the massive pensions losses. Or inflation - it's my perception that a lot of employees (in all businesses) are "losing ground" to inflation.

We know that UA furloughed 1437 pilots (other employees, too) - how many pilots did UA have before 9-11? Perhaps that's the basis for computing job losses. Also, the 1437 doesn't include others that have retired (or other attrition) but were not replaced. As you know, it's been a VERY tough decade for UA.

I saw nothing about the ALPA statement that said other employee groups didn't suffer, too. It seems to me that it wouldn't be germane to a piece about a pilot contract to address ramp agents, mechanics or dispatchers, so why were you expecting it to? Is your workgroup (I don't what group you "belong" to) still suffering from a post 9-11 contract, too?

[Edited 2012-08-03 12:10:59]

[Edited 2012-08-03 12:13:58]

[Edited 2012-08-03 12:16:38]

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: azjubilee
Posted 2012-08-03 12:11:50 and read 7329 times.

The letter is addressed to the UA/CO pilots, so it should absolutely focus on the issues the pilots have been and are facing. The plight of the other employee groups are irrelevant in this context.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: DualQual
Posted 2012-08-03 12:23:15 and read 7222 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 27):
I want I pilot agreement and I want it ASAP, but we all need to be honest with ourselves in the process. Management lost their pensions in BK too, it's not like only the Pilots/Unions suffered, and some people seem to forget that we're all in the same boat.

When you start paying dues to ALPA to represent you, you can get a mention. Otherwise, it's a press release from a pilots union, dealing with the status of the pilots contract. You want press releases go ask your bargaining agent if you have one.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-08-03 12:27:33 and read 7201 times.

Quoting 01pewterz28 (Reply 28):
why should be not be upset that Management feels it ok to grant themselves nice bonuses yet we get nothing.

It's easy to make that statement from your armchair while putting the faceless "management" title on everyone that's not in a union. I can tell you that as a percentage of pre-9/11 employees, "management" took the greatest % of job losses. So many families were destroyed. Those that survived only did so by busting their butts every day while simultaneously praying that every time their boss needed to see them in their office, it wasn't to deliver a pink slip.

These same people took pay cuts of up to 40%, and went without a raise or bonus from 2001 through to 2009. Don't bad mouth "management" when you actually mean the senior officers. It's offensive to those of us who are trying to be your friends here.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 29):
I don't what group you "belong" to)

I guess I just made it clear  
Quoting flyhossd (Reply 29):
that it wouldn't be germane to a piece about a pilot contract to address ramp agents, mechanics or dispatchers, so why were you expecting it to?

You're correct, it's not relevant, but much as UA's main PR mechanisms are sometimes poorly worded, this announcement also has very poor tone to the detriment of the message which is actually extremely positive news.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-08-03 13:39:52 and read 6756 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 32):
These same people took pay cuts of up to 40%, and went without a raise or bonus from 2001 through to 2009. Don't bad mouth "management" when you actually mean the senior officers. It's offensive to those of us who are trying to be your friends here.

IIRC, the pilots - and maybe other workgroups, too (how's that for inclusion?) - haven't had a raise since before 2001. And it hasn't happened just yet either. As they say, "the devil is in the details" and I haven't heard any yet. Will the "Agreement in Principle" reach the Tentative Agreement stage? Probably. Will that T.A. be approved by the UA and CO M.E.C.s? Probably. Will it be passed by the UA and CO pilots? That one, IMHO, is harder to call.

Your point that it's more correct to not write "management" when one means "senior officers" is a good and worthy one. It seems plenty clear to me (and it seems the majority of members on this forum) that the many failures have started at the very top of UA, CO and now U.C.H. (i.e. not in "middle-management").

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: NorthstarBoy
Posted 2012-08-03 16:32:29 and read 6023 times.

Am I reading it right to think that the pilots caved when it came to scope?

I suppose the question now is what did they get from the company in return for allowing the 2 class regional jets to stay on property?

Also interesting that the NMB is mentioned, have they been there all along, or were they brought in after the strike vote?

Finally, when the press release mentions offshoring, is that another way of saying that UA has agreed to cut back on the number of international flights operated as code shares with foreign airlines and will be bringing those routes back in house to be flown by UA/CO metal with UA/CO pilots?

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: United1
Posted 2012-08-03 16:43:22 and read 6000 times.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 34):

Am I reading it right to think that the pilots caved when it came to scope?

I suppose the question now is what did they get from the company in return for allowing the 2 class regional jets to stay on property?

I haven't heard any rumors but I wonder if they will freeze the current number of +50 seat jets and tie any growth of that number to growth of mainline. When UA-ALPA first agreed to 50 seat RJ's that's how scope was negotiated.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: ramprat74
Posted 2012-08-03 16:48:26 and read 5957 times.

It's amazing how fast both sides come to an agreement when the rank and file votes "Yes" to authorize a strike. Now it's time for the IAM to do the same.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2012-08-03 17:22:55 and read 5815 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 35):
I haven't heard any rumors but I wonder if they will freeze the current number of +50 seat jets and tie any growth of that number to growth of mainline. When UA-ALPA first agreed to 50 seat RJ's that's how scope was negotiated.

Also, will it be frames or seats? I think that will be interesting to see as well, which metric gets pegged to mainline growth.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: UnitedTristar
Posted 2012-08-03 19:19:30 and read 5366 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 32):
It's easy to make that statement from your armchair while putting the faceless "management" title on everyone that's not in a union. I can tell you that as a percentage of pre-9/11 employees, "management" took the greatest % of job losses. So many families were destroyed. Those that survived only did so by busting their butts every day while simultaneously praying that every time their boss needed to see them in their office, it wasn't to deliver a pink slip.

These same people took pay cuts of up to 40%, and went without a raise or bonus from 2001 through to 2009. Don't bad mouth "management" when you actually mean the senior officers. It's offensive to those of us who are trying to be your friends here.

                 

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2012-08-03 19:25:33 and read 5340 times.

Big step forward for UA. Hopefully the pilots got a good deal for the long wait and will approve it.

I'm very curious to see what the terms are and how they compare to the DL contract.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: gigneil
Posted 2012-08-04 13:33:14 and read 4548 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 15):
When you're as old as I two years is "some time ago"!  

When you're our age, two years ago is yesterday.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 34):
I suppose the question now is what did they get from the company in return for allowing the 2 class regional jets to stay on property?

A job?


I love the sense of entitlement the pilots unions have while the rest of America struggles to stay at work.

NS

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: HAL
Posted 2012-08-04 16:10:28 and read 4368 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 40):
I love the sense of entitlement the pilots unions have while the rest of America struggles to stay at work.

There is zero 'sense of entitlement' from unions, especially pilot unions. It's a mistaken sense of outrage from union haters that drives this sentiment. Just because a large group of people organize in order to negotiate with one voice, some people feel that is 'bullying'. It isn't. It's legal, sensible, and in keeping with the American tradition of bringing everyone into the 'American dream'. I'm sorry if you feel it's pressure on the companies to enrich a few at the expense of the rest of the workers. That's about as far from the truth as you can get.

Your hatred of unions is well documented on these boards, Neil. Just because a union announces an agreement with a company isn't a reason for you to trot our the old 'greedy, self-serving, ignorant' union message again.

HAL

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-08-04 16:15:07 and read 4340 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 40):
I love the sense of entitlement the pilots unions have while the rest of America struggles to stay at work.

So they should be in favor of outsourcing their jobs? Are you in favor of outsourcing yours? Please take the time to explain your comment.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: gigneil
Posted 2012-08-04 16:23:13 and read 4334 times.

Quoting HAL (Reply 41):
Your hatred of unions is well documented on these boards, Neil. Just because a union announces an agreement with a company isn't a reason for you to trot our the old 'greedy, self-serving, ignorant' union message again.

My greedy, self-serving, and ignorant comment replies specifically refer back to "what do the pilots get for allowing the company to do x" comments, which are the definition of everything I hate about them.

If there weren't ignorant comments like that, I wouldn't feel compelled to say a word.

This is an aviation forum. Lets talk about airplanes, huh?

NS

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: HAL
Posted 2012-08-04 21:33:19 and read 4072 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 43):
My greedy, self-serving, and ignorant comment replies specifically refer back to "what do the pilots get for allowing the company to do x" comments, which are the definition of everything I hate about them.

If there weren't ignorant comments like that, I wouldn't feel compelled to say a word.

This is an aviation forum. Lets talk about airplanes, huh?

Since this is an aviation contract thread, I think it's fair game.

Donald Trump wrote a book called 'The art of the deal'. To him, and I would guess to every businessman, negotiations and deal-making are the heart of business. So you are telling me that airline pilots (and union members anywhere) are not allowed to negotiate as part of the business? Is it only the management of a company that is allowed to negotiate, while the employees are strictly at the mercy of what the management says?

I believe that every employee should be allowed to negotiate as part of their job. And being able to negotiate as a group with their employers is one more way of conducting those negotiations. So your dislike of the phrase "what do the pilots get for allowing the company to do X" shows that you do not value the ability for everyone to negotiate for their best deal. You'd rather that employees play sheep, bow down, and take whatever management so generously hands out to them.

That, Neil, is as unamerican as anything I've read on this board.

HAL

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-08-04 23:29:57 and read 3962 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 43):
My... ...comment replies specifically refer back to "what do the pilots get for allowing the company to do x" comments

So in your perfect world, no one can negotiate? Is that really what you meant to say?

Quoting gigneil (Reply 43):
This is an aviation forum. Lets talk about airplanes, huh?

You're right, it is an aviation forum. Pilots are part of aviation. Is it OK to talk about air traffic controllers? Or dispatchers? Who else would you ban from the discussion?

Quoting gigneil (Reply 43):
...of everything I hate about them.

What's the basis of your hatred? Honestly, I'd like to know.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-08-04 23:32:09 and read 3959 times.

HAL, regarding your most recent reply (reply #44) -         

Well done, sir.

Topic: RE: UAL And Pilots Have AIP On New Contract
Username: CODC10
Posted 2012-08-05 17:32:31 and read 3600 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 32):
I can tell you that as a percentage of pre-9/11 employees, "management" took the greatest % of job losses. So many families were destroyed. Those that survived only did so by busting their butts every day while simultaneously praying that every time their boss needed to see them in their office, it wasn't to deliver a pink slip.

This point is ALWAYS forgotten. After 9/11, on the CO side, the middle management tier was essentially wiped out.

I've said this before... I generally fall on the side of the pilots in this dispute merely because of the assurances and promises made to the workgroups prior to the merger, but I never buy in to the politically charged anti-'management' rhetoric. It's simply unproductive and useless to do otherwise.

You don't get what you deserve... you get what you negotiate!

[Edited 2012-08-05 17:39:05]


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