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Topic: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-09-23 21:26:20 and read 28446 times.

Handling alot more AA cancellations today and for the next three days..just wondering how everyone has been dealt with by AA? In 50% of the situations AA rebooked on something that was almost 24 hours off from the original flight. They are offering refunds when asked.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-09-23 21:56:18 and read 28324 times.

This is what is bothering me. We return from BOS to ORD on AA on 10/14. A friend of mine is a pilot, so he checked loads. Our flight and every flight after ours is oversold by 5 to 7 seats. But, the inbound flight from ORD is less than half full. Assuming that AA is still suffering through crew and maintenance issues, that seems like a candidate for cancellation.

My wife has to be at work the next day, and our son has to be back in school. Staying in Boston overnight is not an option.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-09-23 22:59:38 and read 28124 times.

I can tell you that already packed flights have been cancelled so im not sure there is really any method to the madness at this point..it is a fluid situation for sure so keep proactive to AA.com and best of luck

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: BDL757
Posted 2012-09-23 23:02:53 and read 28105 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 1):

I would call RES and politely ask to be put on a different carrier. You may want to wait until closer to your departure date to see how things at AA are going. If they are offering refunds they most likely will also be willing to route you on a different airline. I know lately I've had a lot of ppl on us who came from AA.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: QANTAS747-438
Posted 2012-09-23 23:43:38 and read 28009 times.

So for those of us not aware, why is AA cancelling so many flights? Have Hawaii flights been affected?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-09-24 00:05:45 and read 27939 times.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 4):

Discussion underway here:

Lots Of AA Cancellations Today 9/17 (by ozark1 Sep 17 2012 in Civil Aviation)


Run an operation held together by only a few threads and then unilaterally screw your employees... well, that's what happens!

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N737AA
Posted 2012-09-24 06:37:42 and read 27407 times.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 4):
So for those of us not aware, why is AA cancelling so many flights? Have Hawaii flights been affected?

So far only the MD83 and 737 flights have been affected, so no threat to Hawaii flights....yet.

N737AA

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: phxa340
Posted 2012-09-24 06:55:08 and read 27320 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 5):
Run an operation held together by only a few threads and then unilaterally screw your employees... well, that's what happens!

Or .... have your pilots and mechanists take things into their own hands and screw the passengers .... well that's what happens.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-09-24 07:35:05 and read 27148 times.

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 3):
I would call RES and politely ask to be put on a different carrier. You may want to wait until closer to your departure date to see how things at AA are going. If they are offering refunds they most likely will also be willing to route you on a different airline. I know lately I've had a lot of ppl on us who came from AA.

But, I have gold status at AA. If I get booke to another carrier, then I'm paying for checked bags, slumming it through through the main security checkpoint, sitting in the back of the plane, etc.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Coronado
Posted 2012-09-24 08:31:41 and read 26891 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 8):

Sounding a bit entitled, arent' we? Take you chances with AA then and don't slum through security checkpoint and sit in the front of the AA plane if it in fact operates. Jeez. As crews runs out of legal hours expect even more last minute cancellations between now and the end of the month. I was struck at the decline in overall pilot count from this time last year. Not much room there for scheduling disruptions.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2012-09-24 08:46:11 and read 26778 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 8):
But, I have gold status at AA. If I get booke to another carrier, then I'm paying for checked bags, slumming it through through the main security checkpoint, sitting in the back of the plane, etc.

I had sympathy for your situation all the way up until this point. Apparently your bag fees, and "slumming" it through airport security is more important then your wife getting back to work and your kid going back to school!

Good Luck!

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: spiritair97
Posted 2012-09-24 08:58:13 and read 26677 times.

I see that 4 of 5 flight from ORD to HPN today were delayed laat night, probably relaed to crew problems.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Acey559
Posted 2012-09-24 09:21:59 and read 26537 times.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 11):

That's Chautauqua and believe me, they have their own set of problems independent of AA.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-09-24 10:01:24 and read 26357 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 1):
My wife has to be at work the next day, and our son has to be back in school. Staying in Boston overnight is not an option.

Hate to sound rude, but that's why you never plan to be back last second with the airlines. Even when they are at their highest on-time rates, best labor relations, etc, something can always happen...

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-24 10:20:39 and read 26264 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Hate to sound rude, but that's why you never plan to be back last second with the airlines.

He's obviously not planning it "last second," as there are multiple flights after his.

An airline where things are so bad that I have to leave a day or more of buffer is not an airline I'd like to fly.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: jumpjets
Posted 2012-09-24 10:38:52 and read 26148 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 8):
But, I have gold status at AA. If I get booke to another carrier, then I'm paying for checked bags, slumming it through through the main security checkpoint, sitting in the back of the plane, etc.

Reminds me of the story of an American lady who, when told her that her TATL flight was cancelled due to the Icelandic Volcanic eruptions, queried whether that applied to her because she was travelling business class.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-09-24 10:40:09 and read 26130 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
An airline where things are so bad that I have to leave a day or more of buffer is not an airline I'd like to fly.

If you absolutely positively have to be there, you should be leaving a day of buffer on ANY airline.

-Mir

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-24 10:54:08 and read 26044 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
If you absolutely positively have to be there, you should be leaving a day of buffer on ANY airline.

On BOS-CHI, a route with some 30 daily flights on 4 carriers? Maybe in the winter, but other than that, give me a break.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: gegarrenton
Posted 2012-09-24 10:58:55 and read 25988 times.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 15):
Reminds me of the story of an American lady who, when told her that her TATL flight was cancelled due to the Icelandic Volcanic eruptions, queried whether that applied to her because she was travelling business class.

lol.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: victrola
Posted 2012-09-24 11:52:28 and read 25825 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 8):
I would call RES and politely ask to be put on a different carrier. You may want to wait until closer to your departure date to see how things at AA are going. If they are offering refunds they most likely will also be willing to route you on a different airline. I know lately I've had a lot of ppl on us who came from AA.

Just try getting through to reservations! One of my co workers here has been on hold for 2 hours.

I have been loyal to American Airlines as my work takes me frequently to Latin America. However, I think it is time to change. Do they honestly expect consumers to stay with them while they continue to play their games?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-09-24 11:58:24 and read 25770 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
If you absolutely positively have to be there, you should be leaving a day of buffer on ANY airline.

On BOS-CHI, a route with some 30 daily flights on 4 carriers? Maybe in the winter, but other than that, give me a break.

What if you have a bomb threat or something stupid that shuts down the airport for hours? I mean to each's own, and I hope ckfred made it back yesterday, but I'd still give at least a day of buffer. Blame whoever, but at the end of the day, you still have to tell your boss why YOU weren't back in time, and I'm sure the first thing out of his/her mouth was "shoulda came back a day earlier"

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-24 12:03:34 and read 25727 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Blame whoever, but at the end of the day, you still have to tell your boss why YOU weren't back in time, and I'm sure the first thing out of his/her mouth was "shoulda came back a day earlier"

I guess my bosses are different than yours, because I've never worked for a boss for whom "the airport was shut down for a bomb threat" was not an acceptable excuse. YMMV.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: AABB777
Posted 2012-09-24 12:06:49 and read 25683 times.

Quoting N737AA (Reply 6):
So far only the MD83 and 737 flights have been affected, so no threat to Hawaii flights....yet.

FWIW, I flew through ORD and DFW last week, on MD80s and 737s, and all my flights were on time departures and arrivals. Even had the new Boeing Sky Interior yesterday out of DFW.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-09-24 12:07:54 and read 25680 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):

I guess my bosses are different than yours, because I've never worked for a boss for whom "the airport was shut down for a bomb threat" was not an acceptable excuse. YMMV.

No kidding... how ignorant would a boss have to be to not be understanding that crap happens from time to time?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-09-24 12:10:20 and read 25607 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 1):
We return from BOS to ORD on AA on 10/14.

Pssst. There's a wonderful option available to you: Amtrak. Their train "The Lake Shore Limited" leaves Boston around noon and gets you to Chicago around 9:30 the next morning. You can book 2 roomettes, enjoy great hot meals at no charge and be 100% relaxed leading up to the trip and during the trip.

If I were you, I'd seriously consider it.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2012-09-24 12:15:14 and read 26143 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
If you absolutely positively have to be there, you should be leaving a day of buffer on ANY airline.

It is a very rare occurance for me to have any trouble same day flying. And I do it weekly. In the last two years I have been late only three times, and missed it entirely--well--never. Lucky I guess. YMMV.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: BHMNONREV
Posted 2012-09-24 12:22:25 and read 26041 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 24):
There's a wonderful option available to you: Amtrak

I'm booked on AA on 10/11 IAH-MIA-STT and return on the 15th. Does Amtrak offer a Hover-Craft option?  

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-09-24 12:24:31 and read 26470 times.

Anyone notice how most of the cancellations have been cancelled the day prior, even though the press release AA put out blamed pilots on last minute write-ups at the time of departure?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-24 12:28:55 and read 26416 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 27):
Anyone notice how most of the cancellations have been cancelled the day prior, even though the press release AA put out blamed pilots on last minute write-ups at the time of departure?

Most all cancelations are being coded OP ADM versus MECH or OP CREW. Just maybe everything coming out of Centerport is not as it seems. Makes you go HMMMMMMMMM?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-09-24 12:32:22 and read 26244 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 24):
Pssst. There's a wonderful option available to you: Amtrak. Their train "The Lake Shore Limited" leaves Boston around noon and gets you to Chicago around 9:30 the next morning. You can book 2 roomettes, enjoy great hot meals at no charge and be 100% relaxed leading up to the trip and during the trip.

Do you know how much that will cost?

He might as well by F-class tickets on another airline and fly his whole family that way.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-24 12:36:43 and read 26086 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Do you know how much that will cost?

Or its on time performance, which I expect is abysmal?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-24 12:37:02 and read 26118 times.

Quoting victrola (Reply 19):
I have been loyal to American Airlines as my work takes me frequently to Latin America. However, I think it is time to change. Do they honestly expect consumers to stay with them while they continue to play their games?

Maybe the creditors and management for AA hang out with the NFL owners and they all believe that their product is inelastic, fans are gonna watch whatever crap the replacement officials throw at us, pax are gonna continue to fly AA no matter what.  

Here's a serious question for the pilots who frequent the threads, is the pilot count low enough that the "work by the book" episode if "removed" will have no effect, can this only truly be resolved by recalling pilots, if recalls, how long does it take to get them back into the fleet, a month, two???

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: cosyr
Posted 2012-09-24 12:40:48 and read 26035 times.

Quoting Coronado (Reply 9):

and he should feel entitled. With elite status, he is the reason pilots have a job. I feel for the pilots, they have had a decade of bad leadership, but that is not the customer's fault. Customers pay the bills, which is something most airlines worldwide are forgeting. Keep your arguments between employees and mgmt in the bedroom where it belongs, and deliver the best experience to customers always. It doesn't matter why he cares about flying whatever airline he wants. He paid for a service, and he should get it.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-24 12:57:10 and read 25699 times.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 32):
Keep your arguments between employees and mgmt in the bedroom where it belongs, and deliver the best experience to customers always.

Often said, how exactly does one do this? AA actually went public with Chpt.11, and the laws allow them to tell their employees exactly how much they can make, where their pension and other benefits get off. Thebedroom door was thrown open, not kicked in  
Quoting cosyr (Reply 32):
It doesn't matter why he cares about flying whatever airline he wants. He paid for a service, and he should get it.

Workers are clients / customers also, they were told to work X and expect Y, now they be getting new math.

I'm trying to laugh because it makes your hear hurt to see what is taking place.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-09-24 12:59:54 and read 25673 times.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 26):

I'm booked on AA on 10/11 IAH-MIA-STT and return on the 15th. Does Amtrak offer a Hover-Craft option?

No, they don't, nor do they go Miami to Los Angeles because if they did, I would cancel my upcoming AA flight MIA-LAX and go Amtrak.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Do you know how much that will cost?

He might as well by F-class tickets on another airline and fly his whole family that way.

Probably around $800 or $900, but of course with all things Amtrak, if there are only a few roomettes left, those will be selling at a premium.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: xdlx
Posted 2012-09-24 13:07:09 and read 25514 times.

Part of the problem is very simple..... just like the last 10 years. The managment reuqested, and was granted the ability to throw the previous labor contract OUT. But they have nor road map for what is ahead, Pilots are being called by Operations but there is no rulebook in place to make the adjustments. So even those pilots.... WILLING to HELP by changing Schedules, have no idea what kind of rules they are suppose to follow.
I understand the situation is desperate.... and MANAGEMENT should have made a SHORT LIST of Operational RULES, BEFORE ACTUALLY operating outside the contract they asked the judge to throw out.
For the LOVE of GOD and the CUSTOMERS .... HORTON & CO. SHOW SOME LEADERSHIP

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: windy95
Posted 2012-09-24 13:25:37 and read 25093 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 7):
Or .... have your pilots and mechanists take things into their own hands and screw the passengers ....

Do you blame them? Over a decade of no pay raises and now they are being asked to give more. Layoffs and more cuts equals an employee who will not do anything extra for the company.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: KBJCpilot
Posted 2012-09-24 13:52:37 and read 24615 times.

My company always uses AA when we fly to ORD and DFW. We have a great corporate discount and have seemed to be pretty happy with their product. Our industry is having their annual convention in Chicago in a few weeks and we have been instructed to use anyone but AA to ensure our staff, and clients, arrive on time and without hassle. Let me explain what this means for AA

AA will miss 200+ employees of a Fortune 100 company paying for business class fares from locations such as New York, Miami, Denver, Los Angeles, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, London, and Tokyo. In addition, we will be shuttling over 750 clients over to UA, Delta, and Frontier- some riding in business class and some in coach- for the trip. A round estimate figures that AA has lost over $400,000 in revenue just from my company alone.

I know this isn't a lot of money for AA but this is just for a 3-day conference. This doesn't count our 10,000 employees, of which 1,000 travel twice a month, that are now utilizing UA and Delta for their travel needs. That must add up to another $500k-$750k a month in airfare. That's over $1 million that my company will have pulled from AA this month alone. It adds up and I'm sure UA and DL are enjoying the additional revenue.

Keep up the good work pilots because you're killing the company one passenger, or in our case, a thousand passengers at a time.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: victrola
Posted 2012-09-24 14:38:26 and read 23746 times.

Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 37):
I know this isn't a lot of money for AA but this is just for a 3-day conference. This doesn't count our 10,000 employees, of which 1,000 travel twice a month, that are now utilizing UA and Delta for their travel needs. That must add up to another $500k-$750k a month in airfare. That's over $1 million that my company will have pulled from AA this month alone. It adds up and I'm sure UA and DL are enjoying the additional revenue.

There are probably thousands of companies like yours who will soon be making similar decisions. That is a lot of money.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-09-24 14:44:53 and read 23649 times.

Quoting victrola (Reply 41):
There are probably thousands of companies like yours who will soon be making similar decisions. That is a lot of money.

It is a lot of money - but I think at the same time it is not too big of an issue.

6 months we had practically daily threads about how corporates and elites were deserting UA(/CO) in droves. Now we hear about corporates going to UA because they're not happy at AA. For all we know DL might have a "winter from hell" due to a bit of snow at LGA and everyone rushes to leave DL. This is cyclical and is unlikely to hurt AA too much in the long run.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-24 15:13:07 and read 23220 times.

Apparently there are a couple of Senators, Marco Rubio (R) Florida and John Cornyn (R) Texas that have been tweeting their extreme displeasure of AA while complimenting the hard work of the crews. I find that interesting.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-24 15:17:15 and read 23124 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 43):
Apparently there are a couple of Senators, Marco Rubio (R) Florida and John Cornyn (R) Texas that have been tweeting their extreme displeasure of AA while complimenting the hard work of the crews. I find that interesting.

And apparently said Senators simply asked the pilots point blank what was causing the delays and the pilots of course said it had nothing to do with a "work to rule" slowdown, and instead was entirely the fault of AA, and the Senators took said pilots at their word. I find that interesting.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-24 15:19:40 and read 23048 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 44):
And apparently said Senators simply asked the pilots point blank what was causing the delays and the pilots of course said it had nothing to do with a "work to rule" slowdown, and instead was entirely the fault of AA, and the Senators took said pilots at their word. I find that interesting.



True, but he also mentioned both pilots were ex military officers, proud Americans and defenders of the Constitution, etc. His words, not mine. Personally, I would take the word of someone who had the Honor and desire to serve their country over a bunch of pompous suits at Headquarters who have only served themselves ANYTIME.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: spiritair97
Posted 2012-09-24 15:23:15 and read 22910 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Hate to sound rude, but that's why you never plan to be back last second with the airlines.

I think that sounds more like planning to get the most out of your trip as you can. I did this recently on a MYR-CLT-LGA trip the day before I went back to school. All I did was make sure their were flights availible within two hours to get me to NYC. It worked out perfectly.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-24 15:43:06 and read 22618 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 45):
True, but he also mentioned both pilots were ex military officers, proud Americans and defenders of the Constitution, etc.

So?

What on earth difference does that make? It doesn't matter if the Captain was Captain America. There are still pilots intentionally causing a slowdown by working to rule and refusing to go until minor, non-safety-of-flight issues are addressed that, mere weeks ago, would never have caused a flight (let alone a series of flights) to be delayed or cancelled.

And the APA itself has essentially confirmed precisely that: "American Airlines chose to reject our contract and the operational procedures and protections that go with it. Understandably, our pilots are taking a prudent and cautious approach in their operational decision-making process." To paraphrase you, "your union's words, not mine."

So the working-to-rule pilots are "proud Americans and defenders of the Constitution," and therefore they are incapable of a labor action? Since when did this become a patriotism contest? What a joke.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 45):
Personally, I would take the word of someone who had the Honor and desire to serve their country over a bunch of pompous suits at Headquarters who have only served themselves ANYTIME.

And the pilots aren't acted out of self-interest? If they aren't acted out of self-interest, please feel free to explain who else's interest they are working for. Please.   

Is this seriously now the standard? If somebody has served in the military their word is gospel, they can do no wrong, and everything they say is infallibly true and beyond repute? They don't have agendas? How ridiculous.

I'm not saying the pilots in question are right or wrong to do what they are doing - there is nothing, in the broadest general sense, wrong with acting in one's own self interest. And the pilots in question are obviously doing what they are doing for one reason and one reason only, which is to use the tools at their disposal to financially harm AMR, force the company to negotiate, and force the company to give them a better contract.

To pretend that they are somehow acting with "honor and desire to serve" and not out of the same naked self-interest driving AMR management is absolutely comical.

[Edited 2012-09-24 15:46:03]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: dirtyfrankd
Posted 2012-09-24 16:03:27 and read 22350 times.

I'm Exec Plat on AA and received an e-mail from Suzanne Rabin a few days ago, here it is:

Dear __________________,

At American, we always do our best to provide our customers with a smooth travel experience. You may have seen recent media reports about American's operational challenges or even experienced a service disruption yourself. Whatever the circumstance, I am truly sorry for any inconvenience to you. I also want to let you know what's going on and assure you that we stand ready to help.

Prior to recent issues, American has been running an extremely good operation, with reliability measures at their best levels in many years. The recent delays are due to the increase in maintenance write-ups by our pilots, many right at the time of departure. Our maintenance teams are responding appropriately to such reports, which may cause interruptions in our schedules. I know you will agree that nothing is more important than running a safe and reliable operation. Ensuring the safety of our customers is always our highest priority.

We are taking several immediate steps to improve our service during this period. We are proactively reducing the rest of our September and October schedule by approximately one to two percent. These schedule adjustments will enable us to provide our customers with more reliable service while minimizing impact to travel plans. Additionally, we are increasing staffing of maintenance, reservations and airport personnel to offer you more flexible travel options.

As always, our goal is to get you to your destination safely and on-time. Because you are a valued elite member, should you find that on your day of departure these issues will cause you to arrive more than one hour late at your final destination, all you have to do is ask and we'll do our best to arrange an alternative. We will seek out the best available reaccommodation, whether that is on American or on another carrier — or if you prefer, we will let you cancel your reservation and receive a refund. Your needs are our primary focus.

Above all, I want to thank you for your business and your support. We do not take your loyalty for granted and are working hard on your behalf.

Sincerely,
Suzanne L. Rubin
Suzanne L. Rubin
President
AAdvantage® Loyalty Program


She cites increased maintenance write-ups by pilots as the reason for the issues. My question is, and I'm asking because I actually do not know, not because I want to insult pilots...but what is the logic behind the increased maintenance reports from a pilot's perspective? What do the pilots get out of doing that? Is it just a form of protest and a big F U to management, or is there some other reason behind it?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-24 16:03:52 and read 22280 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 47):
minor, non-safety-of-flight issues

These issues are usually quickly taken care of, or in most cases are placardable by the flight crews taking a couple of minutes without the need for maintenance. Even at a major maintenance base such as MIA or DFW.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-09-24 16:08:21 and read 22158 times.

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 49):
Prior to recent issues, American has been running an extremely good operation, with reliability measures at their best levels in many years. The recent delays are due to the increase in maintenance write-ups by our pilots, many right at the time of departure. Our maintenance teams are responding appropriately to such reports, which may cause interruptions in our schedules. I know you will agree that nothing is more important than running a safe and reliable operation. Ensuring the safety of our customers is always our highest priority.

And yet most of the flight cancellations are being done by admin at least the day prior. Goodness gracious me... Which one of these is not like the other?

Commavia?

Can it possibly be that this absolute train wreck was just waiting to happen?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: dirtyfrankd
Posted 2012-09-24 16:11:02 and read 22110 times.

I just want to understand the logic behind filing increased maintenance reports other than just making life harder on management. Is there anything to gain from this from the pilots' perspective?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-24 16:28:24 and read 21890 times.

Just out. AA has requested we restart negotiations. APA is convening a board meeting on Wednesday to decide how to proceed. The want to make sure AA is serious about coming to an amicable agreement. If AA just plans on stonewalling, it won't happen. Don't shoot me, I am just the messenger.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-09-24 16:33:21 and read 21780 times.

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 45):
She cites increased maintenance write-ups by pilots as the reason for the issues. My question is, and I'm asking because I actually do not know, not because I want to insult pilots...but what is the logic behind the increased maintenance reports from a pilot's perspective? What do the pilots get out of doing that? Is it just a form of protest and a big F U to management, or is there some other reason behind it?

This is exactly what happenned with NWA pilots and also the Mechanics in 98'-99'..im sure its happened with others..seems like what a work group does when they cant strike yet and dont have the attention of management. I wish them all the best in this endeavor..i know its putting alot of people out but employees, especially in the airline industry are sick of being told to take less or no raises for decades while the bonuses are right on time at the top!

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-24 16:39:58 and read 21673 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 47):
And yet most of the flight cancellations are being done by admin at least the day prior. Goodness gracious me... Which one of these is not like the other?

Well obviously. "The system" - including crew scheduling, maintenance manning, spare parts, facilities utilization, and on and on - is optimized for a certain amount of maintenance traffic in a given day. When certain pilots are now causing an increase in maintenance traffic by refusing to push until minor, trivial and/or non-safety-of-flight maintenance is addressed, that obviously pushes the entire system - again, crew scheduling, maintenance manning, spare parts, facilities utilization, etc. - beyond what it is optimized for. Pilots are also obviously taxiing at painfully slow speeds, thus increasing block times, hurting arrival dependability, and delaying later flights. And all of these things are conspiring to cause crews to go illegal and for increasing aircraft move ups and swaps. As such, given all of this, the company is now pre-cancelling flights over the next several weeks to try and add some slack into the now-grossly-overtaxed system and provide a little breathing space for the crew scheduling, maintenance manning, spare parts, facilities utilization. This is just common sense.

What, of the above paragraph, do you disagree with?

Now - does that mean that AA management were flawlessly optimizing the system, the whole system was running perfectly, and all resources were adequately funded, staffed and supported to meet a realistic expectation of operational performance? No, of course not. AMR management has been stingy, short-sighted and downright stupid on numerous things across the AA operation over the last decade, and that is not at all in dispute - at least certainly not by me. But that still doesn't negate the fact that the proximate cause of what is occurring today is not a poorly-optimized system (one that was generally running at 75%+ controllable on-time as recently as a few weeks ago), but instead is an intentional action on the part of some individuals to push the limits of that system's optimization to guarantee that it breaks.

Again - what, of the above paragraph, do you disagree with?

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 47):
Can it possibly be that this absolute train wreck was just waiting to happen?

Could be. But again, the numbers speak for themselves, and aren't debatable. AA's on-time dependability went from around 75% to 45-55% in the period following the 1113 abrogation, and after some pilots apparently (according to the APA) began exercising an abundance of caution with regards to minor, trivial and/or non-safety-of-flight maintenance issues because of an alleged (quoting directly from APA press release) "significant uncertainty ... with respect to employment protections and operating rules." As such, issues that would have been logged, but not held up a flight, earlier, are now causing delays and cancellations.

So I repeat - what, of the above paragraph, do you disagree with?

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 48):
I just want to understand the logic behind filing increased maintenance reports other than just making life harder on management. Is there anything to gain from this from the pilots' perspective?

It's the same thinking and motivation that underlies all labor action by any organized labor group against any company - harm the company financially to the point where it becomes too painful for the company to bear, and thus force the company back to the bargaining table with a better offer. That is obviously the intention here. These tactics have worked in the past in the airline industry, and elsewhere. We shall see if they work in this case.

[Edited 2012-09-24 16:40:38]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: idlewildchild
Posted 2012-09-24 16:50:07 and read 21297 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 42):
True, but he also mentioned both pilots were ex military officers, proud Americans and defenders of the Constitution, etc. His words, not mine. Personally, I would take the word of someone who had the Honor and desire to serve their country over a bunch of pompous suits at Headquarters who have only served themselves ANYTIME.

And I'm confused. If the delays are happening at the time of departure because pilots are doing a work to rule, how does reducing the schedule 2% change that? Won't that mean flights will continue to be delayed?

And if it's a 'work to rule' meaning calling in things they'd normally let go (bringing greater inconvience of the onboard experience for some, maybe all) in the name of being on time, what does that really mean? That it's ok to sacrifice some things?

The whole thing sort of stinks here.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: gegarrenton
Posted 2012-09-24 17:05:43 and read 21049 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 49):
Just out. AA has requested we restart negotiations. APA is convening a board meeting on Wednesday to decide how to proceed. The want to make sure AA is serious about coming to an amicable agreement. If AA just plans on stonewalling, it won't happen. Don't shoot me, I am just the messenger.

Thanks for the heads up.   

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-09-24 17:26:48 and read 20783 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 44):

So the working-to-rule pilots are "proud Americans and defenders of the Constitution," and therefore they are incapable of a labor action? Since when did this become a patriotism contest? What a joke.

You are directing your ire at the Senators, yes? Aluminumtubing was just quoting the Senators.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-24 17:29:48 and read 20789 times.

Some people seem to have a hard time believing that the APA is not the brunt of the problem here. Just look at the last few days worth of cancelations. Almost all were in advance and coded as OP ADM versus MECH or OP CREW. I can look anyone straight in the eye and say that I have not personally seen any pilot action. I have spoken to all my friends, and they say they are not doing anything inappropriate, and I do believe them. My last write-ups were flight crew placardable. I took care of the paperwork on both instances and left on time. I did have two delays, however, and both were attributable to AA operational issues, not me. I have not had a single first officer try to play games either. I know one First Officer who told me they were in their seats ready to leave on-time and there were no maintenance or other issues they were concerned about and AA cancelled the flight for operational reasons. He said the passengers, having read all about the pilots, were extremely ticked at he and the Captain. He assured them they were more than willing to fly them to their destination on-time,

AA is just so short pilots, and we are burned out. They have been unwilling to recall any pilots while admitting they are very short. APA is not trying to create jobs, we truly are very short pilots. If retirements pick up, they will be in a major bind on the 777 fleet. They know that is a distinct possibility, but again won't recall any pilots to meet the real possibility of an even greater shortage going forward.

If AA would spend half the time running the airline as they do trying to be vindictive with the pilots, I can assure you AA would be a much better run airline.

To show how spiteful they have been, I understand they have offered the agents a 5.5% 401K match and have said sorry to the pilots going forward. That just ain't gonna cut it. While the APA hasn't always behaved like choir boys, I can truly say AA has had a take it or leave it attitude.

I know I am just wasting my breath, but someone has to get out the pilots side.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-09-24 17:36:27 and read 20646 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 55):
If retirements pick up, they will be in a major bind on the 777 fleet.

They were last year in the late Fall season when they dropped the daily 777 on MIA-LAX-MIA for just that reason. If they are STILL short on 777 pilots, that's almost unbelievable in that they had this exact same problem a year ago! Ugh....

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-09-24 17:41:37 and read 20551 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 23):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):

I guess my bosses are different than yours, because I've never worked for a boss for whom "the airport was shut down for a bomb threat" was not an acceptable excuse. YMMV.

No kidding... how ignorant would a boss have to be to not be understanding that crap happens from time to time?

The US military is pretty strict on you getting back when you're supposed to. Maybe bomb threat is a little much but something like weather, or even a plane going down and you're that unlucky soul getting bumped back and every other flight is full

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 43):
It worked out perfectly.

And it usually does... usually

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-24 17:43:25 and read 20541 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 56):
They were last year in the late Fall season when they dropped the daily 777 on MIA-LAX-MIA for just that reason. If they are STILL short on 777 pilots, that's almost unbelievable in that they had this exact same problem a year ago! Ugh....

Yes, it is unbelievable. Even my dog is more trainable and he ain't too bright.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-24 17:54:31 and read 20313 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 54):
You are directing your ire at the Senators, yes? Aluminumtubing was just quoting the Senators.

The context of another poster's post, in response to an earlier post of mine, was clearly that these two pilots were veterans, and therefore that bolsters the veracity of what they said. I was disagreeing with that blanket implication. I have no idea whose these pilots were, and if they are veterans, they certainly deserve and have my admiration and respect for their service. But,the point I was making - and that I later expounded upon - was that solely because somebody served in the military doesn't mean they don't act out of self-interest, and certainly doesn't mean everything they say is gospel.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 55):
Some people seem to have a hard time believing that the APA is not the brunt of the problem here.

No. I don't think so. Again - I think most people, at least here on A.net who have even some passing knowledge of the situation in question, fully take the APA at its word when it says the union is not at all involved in this. The union learned their lesson last time, and would stupid to risk the survival of the entire organization. That is really not in question.

There is a difference between "pilots" taking certain actions, and "the union" taking certain actions.

I do believe that certain pilots are taking actions in this case that are contributing to what is occurring. And again - I use the APA's own press release as essentially confirmation of just that. The union claims that AA pilots are being abundantly cautious with anything maintenance-related, down to the most trivial, minor and not-safety-of-flight issue, because of the uncertainty created by not having a contract, with the obvious implication being that pilots fear that without a union contract that can and will be fired by AA at will.

Fair and legitimate concern? Probably. But legitimate or not, I was not debating whether or not these pilots in question were justified for doing what they are doing. I was merely restating, yet again, the obvious - that some pilots are, indeed, intentionally doing things to slow the operation down.

Again - and for the last time - if you are trying to debate this simple, painfully obvious and self-evident point, why?

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 55):
Just look at the last few days worth of cancelations. Almost all were in advance and coded as OP ADM versus MECH or OP CREW.

I'm quite confused as to how this is supposed to in some way make the argument I think you're trying to make. The company is pre-cancelling flights because the additional maintenance write ups and excessively slow taxi times are causing knock-on effects throughout the operation that can be somewhat relieved by unburdening this system of some of the flying. The fact that the flight is pre-cancelled to try and mitigate some of the delays caused by some pilots' action, as opposed to being directly caused by the pilot action itself, is meaningless. It's the same root cause.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 55):
I can look anyone straight in the eye and say that I have not personally seen any pilot action.

Well, again, it all depends on how you define "pilot action."

If you define "pilot action" as refusing to push until trivial, minor, non-safety-of-flight maintenance issues are fixed, then there are apparently numerous people all across the internet who could "look anyone straight in the eye" and say they have personally seen (or heard) pilots announce delays for various such non-critical issues. Some I have read about include a broken coffee pot, loose carpet, small bathroom light, etc.

Are these AA customers lying?

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 55):
I have spoken to all my friends, and they say they are not doing anything inappropriate, and I do believe them.

Yet again, it depends on how you define "inappropriate."

Of course no AA pilot - your friend or not - is going to saying they are doing anything inappropriate, and, of course, they may well not be. But it is quite obvious to anyone being honest that some pilots are intentionally doing things that are intended to slow the operation, cost AMR money and customers, and force the company to improve their offer.

Whether or not that is "appropriate" is up for debate.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-09-24 17:58:36 and read 20233 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 51):
Well obviously. "The system" - including crew scheduling, maintenance manning, spare parts, facilities utilization, and on and on - is optimized for a certain amount of maintenance traffic in a given day. When certain pilots are now causing an increase in maintenance traffic by refusing to push until minor, trivial and/or non-safety-of-flight maintenance is addressed, that obviously pushes the entire system - again, crew scheduling, maintenance manning, spare parts, facilities utilization, etc. - beyond what it is optimized for. Pilots are also obviously taxiing at painfully slow speeds, thus increasing block times, hurting arrival dependability, and delaying later flights. And all of these things are conspiring to cause crews to go illegal and for increasing aircraft move ups and swaps. As such, given all of this, the company is now pre-cancelling flights over the next several weeks to try and add some slack into the now-grossly-overtaxed system and provide a little breathing space for the crew scheduling, maintenance manning, spare parts, facilities utilization. This is just common sense.

What you call minor, or trivial mx items cannot be over looked. I'm not sure how AA's procedures deal with non safety of flight items- knowing overall how cumbersome their procedures are, I imagine it's not a very easy process. With increased fed presence as well as being "fed" up with the company... Helping the operation along at the risk of their licenses is no longer something they are willing to do.

Why is it happening at push time? Well, because they are already running late and getting to the plane at push time. Operations run notoriously overly optimistic push times. They started this mess with too few pilots, now they have no contract and everything gets more difficult as you're walking a tight rope trying to figure out your responsibility.

Quoting commavia (Reply 51):
Now - does that mean that AA management were flawlessly optimizing the system, the whole system was running perfectly, and all resources were adequately funded, staffed and supported to meet a realistic expectation of operational performance? No, of course not. AMR management has been stingy, short-sighted and downright stupid on numerous things across the AA operation over the last decade, and that is not at all in dispute - at least certainly not by me. But that still doesn't negate the fact that the proximate cause of what is occurring today is not a poorly-optimized system (one that was generally running at 75%+ controllable on-time as recently as a few weeks ago), but instead is an intentional action on the part of some individuals to push the limits of that system's optimization to guarantee that it breaks.

That 75% controllable on time was widely variable, but is poor and indicative of a system ready to collapse. Add in the stress of screwing your trigger men/women and down the drain it goes. My regional carrier ran an operation that hung on by a thread. One burp in the system and the thing would be catching up for weeks. And that was with the pilots mostly doing what they could to help the operation along!

Quoting commavia (Reply 51):
Could be. But again, the numbers speak for themselves, and aren't debatable. AA's on-time dependability went from around 75% to 45-55% in the period following the 1113 abrogation, and after some pilots apparently (according to the APA) began exercising an abundance of caution with regards to minor, trivial and/or non-safety-of-flight maintenance issues because of an alleged (quoting directly from APA press release) "significant uncertainty ... with respect to employment protections and operating rules." As such, issues that would have been logged, but not held up a flight, earlier, are now causing delays and cancellations.

Yep. Your point?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-24 18:06:21 and read 20128 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 59):
The company is pre-cancelling flights because the additional maintenance write ups and excessively slow taxi times are causing knock-on effects throughout the operation that can be somewhat relieved by unburdening this system of some of the flying.

I honestly think they are pre-canceling flights due to a very real pilot shortage more so than maintenance issues.

Quoting commavia (Reply 59):
Yet again, it depends on how you define "inappropriate."

I define inappropriate as doing something that is not proper based on high ethical standards. We can go back and forth on symanttics all day.

Quoting commavia (Reply 59):
Of course no AA pilot - your friend or not - is going to saying they are doing anything inappropriate, and, of course, they may well not be.

While neither I nor my friends are perfect, I pride myself on picking friends that have high ethical standards. Now are there a few bad apples out on the line. It would obviously be very disingenuous to say no. Every company or organization has them. But I am saying that I am not seeing inappropriate actions I hope the same way you define them.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-24 18:09:41 and read 20080 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 60):
What you call minor, or trivial mx items cannot be over looked.

Nobody is suggesting that any maintenance issue should be "overlooked." However, several weeks ago, it appeared that such issues were routinely deferred until an RON or light check, rather than requiring immediate attention, delaying a flight and screwing up the operation.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 60):
Why is it happening at push time? Well, because they are already running late and getting to the plane at push time. Operations run notoriously overly optimistic push times. They started this mess with too few pilots, now they have no contract and everything gets more difficult as you're walking a tight rope trying to figure out your responsibility.

Yet another thing that all still applied 3 weeks ago, when on-time was 75%. Not buying it - pilots three weeks ago were running the same tight operation (tighter, actually, pre-Labor Day), with the same "optimistic" scheduling, and in fact the exact same aircraft, and somehow magically all of these maintenance issues weren't causing delays at D-0.

You stated your opinion. I will respectfully disagree.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 60):
That 75% controllable on time was widely variable, but is poor and indicative of a system ready to collapse. Add in the stress of screwing your trigger men/women and down the drain it goes. My regional carrier ran an operation that hung on by a thread. One burp in the system and the thing would be catching up for weeks. And that was with the pilots mostly doing what they could to help the operation along!

Fair.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-24 18:10:27 and read 20068 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 60):
Why is it happening at push time?

Most cabin write ups that I receive from the flight attendants that don't come from deplaning passengers, come from boarding passengers. Boarding passengers very frequently notify the flight attendants when they notice something while boarding. I can assure you pilots are not doing their walk arounds and then waiting until the agent closes the door to notify maintenance. If nothing else, for self preservation. Any half wit, including any AA supervisor would know they could easily track the discrepancy to the walk around and then accuse the pilot of an intentional delay.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-09-24 18:17:42 and read 19934 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 62):
Nobody is suggesting that any maintenance issue should be "overlooked." However, several weeks ago, it appeared that such issues were routinely deferred until an RON or light check, rather than requiring immediate attention, delaying a flight and screwing up the operation.


That's because they were being overlooked when legally they should have been taken care of right when it was discovered. We do it to be nice and for convenience of both us and the customers. Management decided to stop any semblance of niceness and go nuclear, so now the pilots are holding them to the regs, as is their legal right. Funny how people stop doing you favors when you screw them (repeatedly).

Anyone notice that FA sick time is at record levels while pilot sick time is at historical averages?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-24 18:22:07 and read 19855 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 64):
when legally they should have been taken care of right when it was discovered.

The company - and the pilot - were legally required to "take care of" these minor maintenance issues immediately upon discovery? Does this mean the company and the pilots have not been complying with the law in the past?

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 64):
We do it to be nice and for convenience of both us and the customers. Management decided to stop any semblance of niceness and go nuclear, so now the pilots are holding them to the regs, as is their legal right. Funny how people stop doing you favors when you screw them (repeatedly).

Fair, and understandable.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-09-24 18:24:37 and read 19808 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 65):

The company - and the pilot - were legally required to "take care of" these minor maintenance issues immediately upon discovery? Does this mean the company and the pilots have not been complying with the law in the past?

Yep, happens all the time. It's for the convenience of the customer and reliability of the operation.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: TUSAA
Posted 2012-09-24 18:43:05 and read 19529 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 65):
Quoting commavia (Reply 65):

The company - and the pilot - were legally required to "take care of" these minor maintenance issues immediately upon discovery? Does this mean the company and the pilots have not been complying with the law in the past?

What do you think is gonna happen when they start outsourcing all line and RON maintenance at the smaller stations such as PHX,SAN,SEA where alot of MEL's and such are taken care of. It will all have to wait till the plane gets to a hub or bigger MX station, then things get backed up and flights are gonna go out late because of all the write ups that use to get fixed at the smaller stations.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-24 18:47:18 and read 19546 times.

Quoting TUSAA (Reply 67):
What do you think is gonna happen when they start outsourcing all line and RON maintenance at the smaller stations such as PHX,SAN,SEA where alot of MEL's and such are taken care of. It will all have to wait till the plane gets to a hub or bigger MX station, then things get backed up and flights are gonna go out late because of all the write ups that use to get fixed at the smaller stations.

So I guess the question then becomes: how do Delta, United and USAirways address this, seeing as all three of those airlines have also outsourced ground handling at many smaller stations? What should AA be doing now to learn from the successes and/or failures of those airlines with this issue and prepare for the time in the very near future when there will literally only be a relatively few mainline-staffed ground handled stations in the system?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-09-24 19:01:41 and read 19348 times.

DL realized they cut too many and now have mainline mx staff at quite a few "outstations."

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: TUSAA
Posted 2012-09-24 19:21:18 and read 18993 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 68):

So I guess the question then becomes: how do Delta, United and USAirways address this, seeing as all three of those airlines have also outsourced ground handling at many smaller stations? What should AA be doing now to learn from the successes and/or failures of those airlines with this issue and prepare for the time in the very near future when there will literally only be a relatively few mainline-staffed ground handled stations in the system?

Those airlines didn't try to outsource 30 stations and replace thousands of employees in a 30 day period like AA is doing. AA is trying to get this all done by the middle of november.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2012-09-24 19:42:23 and read 18562 times.

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 45):
We are taking several immediate steps to improve our service during this period. We are proactively reducing the rest of our September and October schedule by approximately one to two percent.

Something in this letter doesn't make sense. If pilots are indeed writing up more items at the last minute to cause a maintenance delay, I'm not sure that cutting the schedule by 1% or 2% is going to make a significant difference.

Sure, there will be more down time per aircraft in between two flights, but at best it will reduce the delays, not eliminate them. Now the pilots allegedly get to write up an on-time flight as opposed to write up a flight that's already late due to the previous write up...

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-24 20:27:43 and read 18051 times.

An update on AA requesting that APA re-engage in negotiations. No real surprise there. AA actually made the request over the weekend, but APA leadership afraid of AA attempting to play games again, said nothing would happen until they put the request in writing. That happened this afternoon by Denise Lynn the VP of "PEOPLE". Gotta love that PC "crap". Now, the APA President has convened a board meeting for this Wednesday at 1300 Central time to determine how to proceed. They want to have protocols in place to assure AA is serious. If they are not, this "request" will go nowhere. So, I sincerely hope management is serious and that APA is realistic. But then again, maybe there really is an Easter Bunny.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-09-24 22:43:39 and read 17161 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Hate to sound rude, but that's why you never plan to be back last second with the airlines. Even when they are at their highest on-time rates, best labor relations, etc, something can always happen...

I would completely agree with you in winter. ORD has a habit of going into ground stops with 6-hour delays, even with only a few inches of snow.

By the same token, I would also agree with you, if we were taking a flight after 6pm.

But, I just got off the phone with AA. The plan now is to get every flight to ORD out of BOS that morning, and cancel then afternoon departures, starting with the 2:25pm flight. So, even though cruise passengers think I'm nuts for getting a 10:15 departure, at least I have a departure.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-09-24 23:16:33 and read 17060 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 73):

But, I just got off the phone with AA. The plan now is to get every flight to ORD out of BOS that morning, and cancel then afternoon departures, starting with the 2:25pm flight. So, even though cruise passengers think I'm nuts for getting a 10:15 departure, at least I have a departure.

That must be due to mx write ups at the time of departure.   

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-09-24 23:49:15 and read 17023 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
On BOS-CHI, a route with some 30 daily flights on 4 carriers? Maybe in the winter, but other than that, give me a break.

If you have to be in CHI on Tuesday morning, you should not be leaving on Monday afternoon/evening. Monday morning will probably give you enough buffer.

-Mir

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: SHUPirate1
Posted 2012-09-24 23:55:15 and read 17016 times.

Let me ask this...this December, I have an engagement in Las Vegas that requires me to be tied down until 5:00 PM (at the Convention Center) on December 1st, and then I have to be in Minneapolis (at the University of Minnesota) at 1:00 PM the following afternoon. How am I supposed to avoid "flying the same day"? (in this case, because there are no nonstops that get me there on time, I'm flying through Seattle, as has been mentioned in another thread, but what am I supposed to do? Charter a plane?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-09-25 00:04:59 and read 17019 times.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 76):
Let me ask this...this December, I have an engagement in Las Vegas that requires me to be tied down until 5:00 PM (at the Convention Center) on December 1st, and then I have to be in Minneapolis (at the University of Minnesota) at 1:00 PM the following afternoon. How am I supposed to avoid "flying the same day"?

Schedule appropriately so that you don't have events on consecutive days that you absolutely have to be at. There's nothing wrong with trying to fly same day, but you have to face the possibility that something might happen and you might not make it in time. If you're okay with taking that chance, then it's fine to book a flight the same day.

-Mir

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-09-25 00:19:46 and read 17002 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 75):
If you have to be in CHI on Tuesday morning, you should not be leaving on Monday afternoon/evening. Monday morning will probably give you enough buffer.

Really? Reliability is far higher than that (at least in the DL system). If you're nonrevving, yes. I positive space routinely for company operations and only leave one back up flight (if that). I've been hosed less than I can remember.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: norcal
Posted 2012-09-25 05:11:47 and read 16779 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 55):
AA is just so short pilots, and we are burned out. They have been unwilling to recall any pilots while admitting they are very short. APA is not trying to create jobs, we truly are very short pilots. If retirements pick up, they will be in a major bind on the 777 fleet. They know that is a distinct possibility, but again won't recall any pilots to meet the real possibility of an even greater shortage going forward.

Exactly after a certain point of volunteering for OT or getting junior manned into your days off you just get tired. I remember during my regional days getting threatened by a chief pilot for fatiguing a junior man at the airport. I'd been away from home for 6 days already and they wanted me to spend my 7th "off day" at a hotel somewhere before starting another 5 days on reserve (where I probably would have been junior manned again). I was out of clean clothes and exhausted so I simply said, "Talk to my union rep, I'm too fatigued to continue this is a safety of flight issue."

Can an AA pilot even say that at this point or will AMR fire him/her on the spot?

Quoting commavia (Reply 62):
Nobody is suggesting that any maintenance issue should be "overlooked." However, several weeks ago, it appeared that such issues were routinely deferred until an RON or light check, rather than requiring immediate attention, delaying a flight and screwing up the operation.

They no longer have a contract so it's unclear whether the Union can offer them any protection legally at this point. This is all new territory so I'm sure they are being extra cautious and doing everything by the book since there is greater fed oversight.

That minor mx item might be overlooked during normal times but with no contract and the possibility of no union protection in the event the feds decide to make an issue of it means they have to be extra cautious. At the end of the day it is your certificate and your lively hood at stake. The company, especially one that loathes its employees as much as AMR, will not defend you in the event the Feds come knocking. You must be able to justify why you thought it was ok to ignore something.

I'd be double and triple checking everything if I was in their shoes.

The lack of a contract (and possibility of no union protection) and the increased fed oversight is why you saw such a huge change in the operation between 9/16 and 9/17.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N737AA
Posted 2012-09-25 05:43:37 and read 16696 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 7):
Or .... have your pilots and mechanists take things into their own hands and screw the passengers .... well that's what happens.

The mechanics are not involved in this mess other than cleaning it up and they are doing a fine job doing that.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 27):
Anyone notice how most of the cancellations have been cancelled the day prior, even though the press release AA put out blamed pilots on last minute write-ups at the time of departure?
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 28):
Most all cancelations are being coded OP ADM versus MECH or OP CREW. Just maybe everything coming out of Centerport is not as it seems. Makes you go HMMMMMMMMM?

Yes, the system is a mess now with crews all over the place and out of time....but you already know that don't you. The number of aircraft out of service each day is 10x the norm so they ARE taking appropriate actions in advance to start reaccomodating the customers. I'm sure you prefer they wait til they show up at the gate to tell them there is no crew and/or aircraft for their flight.

N737AA

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-25 05:47:35 and read 16696 times.

Quoting N737AA (Reply 80):
The mechanics are not involved in this mess other than cleaning it up and they are doing a fine job doing that.

All I will say is hmmmmmmmm.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: gegarrenton
Posted 2012-09-25 06:14:52 and read 16648 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 78):

Really? Reliability is far higher than that (at least in the DL system). If you're nonrevving, yes. I positive space routinely for company operations and only leave one back up flight (if that). I've been hosed less than I can remember.

Bwhahahahahaha. Right. The same DL that has not been able to get me from DTW to ORD in a 36 hour period with 8 scheduled flights a day? Any other airline I'd say yes, reliability is higher than that and it's pretty ridiculous to not be able to plan on that, but not old DL. Obviously this is also dependent on the route and number of flights/routings to get you where you need to go.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 72):
But then again, maybe there really is an Easter Bunny.

Next thing, you'll be telling me there is no Santa...

[Edited 2012-09-25 06:15:27]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: AAexecplat
Posted 2012-09-25 06:52:06 and read 16547 times.

I don't even know what to say anymore...I am all in favor of pilots getting paid well, all in favor of safe operations, and pilots having appropriate rest etc. But let's not spin what is going on with the standard union rhetoric, please. Is there an illegal job action? No. Is there a union led job action? No. Is there a HUGE change in pilot behavior since the abrogation of their prior contract? You bet your fanny. Let us acknowledge what is obvious to all of us who fly on AA weekly. Last week, I flew 4 segs and 1 was cancelled and 2 delayed, one significantly so. Zero weather to blame in any of them. Taxi speeds are crawling and maintenance is on board more frequently...trust me, I can tell..I have flown a metric ton on AA and more on other carriers. But it is not just anecdotal. Cancellations are way up and ontime rate way down. All since the abrogation of the contract.

So if we can agree on this, let us move on. The pilots and AA are both tone deaf right now. If the pilots seriously believe they don't need to make some concessions, then they need a reality check. The concessions don't and shouldn't have to be concessionary with respect to pay. If PAY is indeed better at other carriers, by all means, AA pilots should be making more (although not necessarily moe than their UA and DL counterparts) if they currently indeed make less.

But along with those raises, AA should be able to get higher productivity from the pilots, more lenient codeshare and scope agreements, more autonomy with regard to what equipment to fly where without having to get pilot approval in each instance and whatever else will bring AA to parity with its peers. If any of that is concessionary and therefore frowned upon by the pilots, then it is time to put the big boy pants on and deal with reality....you want to make more money? No problemo, but you will have to be more productive and will to concede some of the work rules that have made you the least productive pilot group in the industry.

All that said, management has royally screwed up this process. While I don't run AA or an airline in general, I have tons of management and negotiation experience, and I can tell that in both regards, AA is inept. While I think that AA could have done way better early to negotiate a meaningful contract with the APA, once the stalemate was obvious, I supported the abrogation of the contract.

Why they chose to then impose the most stringent terms possible though is beyond me. If you a mired in a labor dispute, the last thing you want to do is to impose draconian terms on a work group that can make your airline implode. Imagine how things could have gone if they had simply imposed the LFBO? That would have signaled the intent to do the right thing. To abide by the negotiations that have already taken place and communicated that while AA could do better in the short term, they are willing to live with a temporary solution that is better for the pilots while continuing to negotiate for terms that are mutually acceptable.

If the pilots had then staged their current unofficial job action, AA would have had the moral high ground, and would have probably had support from even some of the pilots. As things stand, they can't claim the moral highground, and both parties are in a race to the bottom of the integrity barrel.

If they want to truly fix this thing, they have to treat the pilots like professionals and human beings. Ask for reasonable work terms and pay competitively. Demonstrate they care by getting pilots better schedules, more work hours if requested, better rest facilities, etc. In other words...take care of all the little things that are not all that expensive but add up to real benefits.

I will conclude by going in an esoteric direction....happiness for the pilots will not be determined by how big their paycheck is. Generally, what makes people happy is a sense of balance, the ability to be oneself, and to be true to one's personality. I chose to believe that pilots are folks with integrity, and the simple act of hosing customers will have them feel unhappy because it damages their integrity.

My recommendation to both sides is simple. Negotiate with integrity. Don't lie and cheat and respectfully lay out the facts in front of each other. Then come up with common sense and innovative ways to solve the issues at hand instead of simply saying UA pilots get that, I want that too (pilots) / UA pilots are this productive we want that too (mgmt). And while trying to achieve common ground, don't sell us customers down the river.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-09-25 07:03:22 and read 16506 times.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 83):
f PAY is indeed better at other carriers, by all means, AA pilots should be making more (although not necessarily moe than their UA and DL counterparts) if they currently indeed make less.

But along with those raises, AA should be able to get higher productivity from the pilots, more lenient codeshare and scope agreements, more autonomy with regard to what equipment to fly where without having to get pilot approval in each instance and whatever else will bring AA to parity with its peers. If any of that is concessionary and therefore frowned upon by the pilots, then it is time to put the big boy pants on and deal with reality....you want to make more money? No problemo, but you will have to be more productive and will to concede some of the work rules that have made you the least productive pilot group in the industry.

All that said, management has royally screwed up this process. While I don't run AA or an airline in general, I have tons of management and negotiation experience, and I can tell that in both regards, AA is inept. While I think that AA could have done way better early to negotiate a meaningful contract with the APA, once the stalemate was obvious, I supported the abrogation of the contract.

Why they chose to then impose the most stringent terms possible though is beyond me. If you a mired in a labor dispute, the last thing you want to do is to impose draconian terms on a work group that can make your airline implode. Imagine how things could have gone if they had simply imposed the LFBO? That would have signaled the intent to do the right thing. To abide by the negotiations that have already taken place and communicated that while AA could do better in the short term, they are willing to live with a temporary solution that is better for the pilots while continuing to negotiate for terms that are mutually acceptable.

I am going to rank this as one of the best posts I have ever read on ANet. Ever.

I agree 100% with what you say - in fact I'd go so far as to say that the majority of poster here agree, just you said it better. I think most people can agree that this isn't a zero sum game and that both sides are equally to blame in this mess, but AA has certainly lost an opportunity here to reset the clock and create a mutually productive culture of cooperation. Instead AA has the same bitter labor relations as before, just now a lot LOT more bitter.

Quoting gegarrenton (Reply 82):
Next thing, you'll be telling me there is no Santa...

What? There isn't?!?!   


I'm cautiously looking forward to my first AA flight since January on Thursday, It will be interesting to see what eventuates. Even now I'm sure that it will be a complete non-event, but in the event of a cancellation or long delay I'd be interested to see how things are on the front line

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: AAR90
Posted 2012-09-25 07:24:53 and read 16397 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 33):
Quoting cosyr (Reply 32):
Keep your arguments between employees and mgmt in the bedroom where it belongs, and deliver the best experience to customers always.

Often said, how exactly does one do this?

By following two simple rules: 1. If you are not having fun, you are doing something wrong. 2. Life is too short to worry about things you don't control so... don't worry about them and go back to having fun.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 35):
So even those pilots.... WILLING to HELP by changing Schedules, have no idea what kind of rules they are suppose to follow.

Flight Manual Part-1 (AA's operational "bible") has not changed and was not abrogated. Comply with Part-1 and you will never have a problem with AA management. Note: it is very easy to comply with Part-1.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 42):
Personally, I would take the word of someone who had the Honor and desire to serve their country over a bunch of pompous suits at Headquarters who have only served themselves ANYTIME.

Yet it was the word of those "who had the Honor and desire to serve their country" (ex-USN union officials) who began the APA's downward spiral into marginal (to include openly illegal) actions more than 20 years ago.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 47):
Can it possibly be that this absolute train wreck was just waiting to happen?

Yep. This has been 20+ years in the making. Anybody paying attention could have told you we'd get to this point. The only question has been when.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: TWA85
Posted 2012-09-25 07:25:58 and read 16417 times.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americ...-ready-resume-talks-013034366.html

Has the AA pilot's voice finally been heard?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-25 07:42:37 and read 16345 times.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 85):
Yet it was the word of those "who had the Honor and desire to serve their country" (ex-USN union officials) who began the APA's downward spiral into marginal (to include openly illegal) actions more than 20 years ago.

I didn't say ex military pilots are perfect. I said I would take their integrity over that of a suit anytime. The odds are definitely in their favor.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-25 07:46:10 and read 16365 times.

Significant cancellations again today based on mechanicals. The pilots can write things up, but maintenance takes them out of service. AND, they only go out of service if the item renders the aircraft un-airworthy. Not for reading lights and seat cushions.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ROSWELL41
Posted 2012-09-25 07:59:51 and read 16279 times.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 83):
I don't even know what to say anymore...I am all in favor of pilots getting paid well, all in favor of safe operations, and pilots having appropriate rest etc. But let's not spin what is going on with the standard union rhetoric, please. Is there an illegal job action? No. Is there a union led job action? No. Is there a HUGE change in pilot behavior since the abrogation of their prior contract? You bet your fanny. Let us acknowledge what is obvious to all of us who fly on AA weekly. Last week, I flew 4 segs and 1 was cancelled and 2 delayed, one significantly so. Zero weather to blame in any of them. Taxi speeds are crawling and maintenance is on board more frequently...trust me, I can tell..I have flown a metric ton on AA and more on other carriers. But it is not just anecdotal. Cancellations are way up and ontime rate way down. All since the abrogation of the contract.So if we can agree on this, let us move on. The pilots and AA are both tone deaf right now. If the pilots seriously believe they don't need to make some concessions, then they need a reality check. The concessions don't and shouldn't have to be concessionary with respect to pay. If PAY is indeed better at other carriers, by all means, AA pilots should be making more (although not necessarily moe than their UA and DL counterparts) if they currently indeed make less.But along with those raises, AA should be able to get higher productivity from the pilots, more lenient codeshare and scope agreements, more autonomy with regard to what equipment to fly where without having to get pilot approval in each instance and whatever else will bring AA to parity with its peers. If any of that is concessionary and therefore frowned upon by the pilots, then it is time to put the big boy pants on and deal with reality....you want to make more money? No problemo, but you will have to be more productive and will to concede some of the work rules that have made you the least productive pilot group in the industry.All that said, management has royally screwed up this process. While I don't run AA or an airline in general, I have tons of management and negotiation experience, and I can tell that in both regards, AA is inept. While I think that AA could have done way better early to negotiate a meaningful contract with the APA, once the stalemate was obvious, I supported the abrogation of the contract. Why they chose to then impose the most stringent terms possible though is beyond me. If you a mired in a labor dispute, the last thing you want to do is to impose draconian terms on a work group that can make your airline implode. Imagine how things could have gone if they had simply imposed the LFBO? That would have signaled the intent to do the right thing. To abide by the negotiations that have already taken place and communicated that while AA could do better in the short term, they are willing to live with a temporary solution that is better for the pilots while continuing to negotiate for terms that are mutually acceptable.If the pilots had then staged their current unofficial job action, AA would have had the moral high ground, and would have probably had support from even some of the pilots. As things stand, they can't claim the moral highground, and both parties are in a race to the bottom of the integrity barrel.If they want to truly fix this thing, they have to treat the pilots like professionals and human beings. Ask for reasonable work terms and pay competitively. Demonstrate they care by getting pilots better schedules, more work hours if requested, better rest facilities, etc. In other words...take care of all the little things that are not all that expensive but add up to real benefits. I will conclude by going in an esoteric direction....happiness for the pilots will not be determined by how big their paycheck is. Generally, what makes people happy is a sense of balance, the ability to be oneself, and to be true to one's personality. I chose to believe that pilots are folks with integrity, and the simple act of hosing customers will have them feel unhappy because it damages their integrity.My recommendation to both sides is simple. Negotiate with integrity. Don't lie and cheat and respectfully lay out the facts in front of each other. Then come up with common sense and innovative ways to solve the issues at hand instead of simply saying UA pilots get that, I want that too (pilots) / UA pilots are this productive we want that too (mgmt). And while trying to achieve common ground, don't sell us customers down the river.

Good post. I hope both sides reach a consensual agreement. It appears that AMR management is being punitive with the pilots and using the abrogration not as a way to fix AMR's problems, but as a way to gain a significant cost advantage over airline peers. They seek to set a new bar for pilot career expectations well below that of UAL, DAL and even many of the low cost carriers. In fact, AA Airbus pilots will be paid below those at F9, JB and NK. This is an overreach by management and sadly it doesn't have to be this way.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-25 08:00:43 and read 16266 times.

Quoting ROSWELL41 (Reply 89):
Good post. I hope both sides reach a consensual agreement. It appears that AMR management is being punitive with the pilots and using the abrogration not as a way to fix AMR's problems, but as a way to gain a significant cost advantage over airline peers. They seek to set a new bar for pilot career expectations well below that of UAL, DAL and even many of the low cost carriers. In fact, AA Airbus pilots will be paid below those at F9, JB and NK. This is an overreach by management and sadly it doesn't have to be this way.

Thank you.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: AAR90
Posted 2012-09-25 08:03:04 and read 16247 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 87):
I didn't say ex military pilots are perfect. I said I would take their integrity over that of a suit anytime. The odds are definitely in their favor.

Just pointing out the obvious. Odds are statistical averages. Individuals are unique. Just because those being cited are ex-military does not make their integrity any better or worse than the average civilian.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-25 08:05:16 and read 16226 times.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 91):
Just pointing out the obvious. Odds are statistical averages. Individuals are unique. Just because those being cited are ex-military does not make their integrity any better or worse than the average civilian.

Ok.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: AAR90
Posted 2012-09-25 08:11:10 and read 16236 times.

An exceptional well-thought out post, AAexecplat. Only one very minor correction....

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 83):
Why they chose to then impose the most stringent terms possible though is beyond me. If you a mired in a labor dispute, the last thing you want to do is to impose draconian terms on a work group that can make your airline implode.

The terms being imposed are not "the most stringent terms possible" but rather a "blend" of the Term Sheet, LBFO or somewhere in between.

That very very minor correction does not in any way change the force of your next comment.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 83):
Imagine how things could have gone if they had simply imposed the LFBO? That would have signaled the intent to do the right thing. To abide by the negotiations that have already taken place and communicated that while AA could do better in the short term, they are willing to live with a temporary solution that is better for the pilots while continuing to negotiate for terms that are mutually acceptable.

I suspect there is too much emotions in play by too many people for the logic of the above to have been followed. It would have taken all of the emotional "ammunition" away from the union rhetoric that has followed, but alas... it was not to be.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-09-25 08:33:13 and read 16129 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 75):
If you have to be in CHI on Tuesday morning, you should not be leaving on Monday afternoon/evening. Monday morning will probably give you enough buffer.

My father used to fly to TWF from ORD, connecting at SLC from either AA or UA to RW. He routinely took a 6pm departure out of ORD, getting into SLC at 8pm. The 1 hour connection at SLC usually became 90 minutes or 2 hours, because RW never ran on time. And he would have a breakfast meeting scheduled for the next day. That was back in the 60s and 70s.

The only thing I would avoid is flying in on the day of a cruise ship departure. Even if you book the first flight out to somewhere like MIA, the plane could very have problems. Years ago, a friend who was then an AA F/O had the SEA-ORD redeye. It got in around 5:15, then left at 6:30 for MIA. When NW was suffering through a strike, the redeye was often late because of dealing with NW passengers trying to get on the plane. Next thing you know, they are an hour late out of SEA.

Cruise ships do not wait.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 55):
AA is just so short pilots, and we are burned out. They have been unwilling to recall any pilots while admitting they are very short. APA is not trying to create jobs, we truly are very short pilots. If retirements pick up, they will be in a major bind on the 777 fleet. They know that is a distinct possibility, but again won't recall any pilots to meet the real possibility of an even greater shortage going forward.

I thought AA was actually training new pilots, many of them flowing through from Eagle. I remember last fall, when AA pilots were retiring in droves to lock in stock market prices, talking to a friend of mine who is a 737 Captain. He was telling me that AA was training Eagle pilots, but senior AA pilots were retiring faster than AA could train new ones.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-09-25 08:38:18 and read 16110 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 74):
Quoting ckfred (Reply 73):
But, I just got off the phone with AA. The plan now is to get every flight to ORD out of BOS that morning, and cancel then afternoon departures, starting with the 2:25pm flight. So, even though cruise passengers think I'm nuts for getting a 10:15 departure, at least I have a departure.
That must be due to mx write ups at the time of departure.

AA is doing proactive cancelations, so that they have sufficient resources to deal with getting mechanical and crew scheduling issues resolved. Fight 876 (ORD-BOS) and flight 1689 (the BOS-ORD turn) are already cancelled for tomorrow.

The agent told me that AA is trying to shift cancellations around, so that the same flight isn't cancelled repeatedly (even though 876 and 1689 were cancelled on the 17th, 18th, 22nd, 23rd, and 26th).

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-25 08:50:09 and read 16064 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 94):
I thought AA was actually training new pilots,

No, that is incorrect. Supposedly at some point Eagle pilots will be given the opportunity to flow over at a given ratio. But right now, we still have pilots furloughed, some for 11 years. I certainly don't believe in "creating" jobs, but we truly are short pilots by anyones definition. Management has said so on a number of occasions.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: readytotaxi
Posted 2012-09-25 09:24:07 and read 16011 times.

I got a surprise today, just after 10:45 had AA87 over head dumping fuel, LHR-ORD. Did several laps of the Ockham beacon and then headed back to LHR. The flight is now cancelled, more mechanical problems for AA?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: gegarrenton
Posted 2012-09-25 09:53:04 and read 15951 times.

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 97):
I got a surprise today, just after 10:45 had AA87 over head dumping fuel, LHR-ORD. Did several laps of the Ockham beacon and then headed back to LHR. The flight is now cancelled, more mechanical problems for AA?
AA87 Return To Heathrow (by PA727 Sep 25 2012 in Civil Aviation)#last

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-25 09:57:42 and read 15956 times.

As a side note, I have noticed that many SA flights out of DFW the last several days have been significantly delayed before the outbound crews arrived. I have not noticed an abundance of maintenance issues on many of the inbound aircraft turning to those flights.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: readytotaxi
Posted 2012-09-25 10:10:04 and read 15849 times.

Quoting gegarrenton (Reply 98):

Thanks for the link.  

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-09-25 11:43:48 and read 15712 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 75):
If you have to be in CHI on Tuesday morning, you should not be leaving on Monday afternoon/evening. Monday morning will probably give you enough buffer.

How far we have fallen that this is the state of the airline industry in the USA.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-09-25 16:47:00 and read 15448 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 101):
How far we have fallen that this is the state of the airline industry in the USA.

People want cheap fares. You simply can't cut costs down and expect to run as reliable an operation. The airlines have to run fuller planes, which means fewer seats available to absorb passengers from a flight that might cancel. The airlines have to run fuller schedules per aircraft, which means that delays are more likely to cascade throughout the day. The airlines have to get more productivity out of their crews, which means fewer crews on reserve, and more crews stretched out close to their duty limits and thus less able to absorb delays before they time out.

There's nothing wrong with flying the night before if you're willing to take the chance that your flight will have an issue and you might not be able to get on another one - chances are extremely good that that won't happen, and you'll get to your destination pretty much as scheduled. But if you really, absolutely, positively HAVE to be somewhere, you're playing with fire. And sometimes you'll get burned. And it might not even be within the airline's control - sometimes unfortunate things do happen.

-Mir

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-09-25 16:52:47 and read 15409 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 102):
Quoting N62NA (Reply 101):
How far we have fallen that this is the state of the airline industry in the USA.

People want cheap fares. You simply can't cut costs down and expect to run as reliable an operation.

Not to mention weather. Or the fact that even perfectly maintained planes break. The airlines are doing pretty well in their on-time rates I do believe

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: quiet1
Posted 2012-09-25 23:58:36 and read 15086 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 51):
"The system" - including crew scheduling, maintenance manning, spare parts, facilities utilization, and on and on - is optimized for a certain amount of maintenance traffic in a given day. When certain pilots are now causing an increase in maintenance traffic by refusing to push until minor, trivial and/or non-safety-of-flight maintenance is addressed, that obviously pushes the entire system - again, crew scheduling, maintenance manning, spare parts, facilities utilization, etc. - beyond what it is optimized for
Quoting commavia (Reply 62):
Nobody is suggesting that any maintenance issue should be "overlooked." However, several weeks ago, it appeared that such issues were routinely deferred until an RON or light check, rather than requiring immediate attention, delaying a flight and screwing up the operation.
Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 64):
That's because they were being overlooked when legally they should have been taken care of right when it was discovered.
Quoting commavia (Reply 65):
The company - and the pilot - were legally required to "take care of" these minor maintenance issues immediately upon discovery? Does this mean the company and the pilots have not been complying with the law in the past?
Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 66):
Yep, happens all the time. It's for the convenience of the customer and reliability of the operation.

I'm glad to read that little dialogue as I think it's not widely known how maintenance reporting is handled. I always thought the captain, by FAR or some other regulation, was required to submit maintenance reports ASAP, i.e. when the defective/broken item was brought to his/her attention. I also knew that sometimes, in the interest of simplicity or an on-time operation, some things were discreetly not reported to maintenance until later, even if such an action were a violation of some sort.

Now, however, with FAA inspectors popping up on board more frequently, is a pilot going to risk his/her license by doing that "illegal" act of delaying reporting? As has been mentioned, when an airline is in bankruptcy, FAA policy dictates much more frequent and strict inspections.

So, if at the last minute a F/A notifies the cockpit that XXXX is not working (coffee maker, reading light, seat back recline, whatever) I suspect the AA pilots are simply passing that maintenance item along to maintenance when it is received by the cockpit, just as is required by regulation. And, yes, with tight turaround times and/or late inbound crews, I suspect many maintenance items in the cabin won't be noticed until the last minute. Ditto for a late walk-around aircraft inspection due to a late-arriving inbound cockpit crew.

Now, a lot of items, like an inop reading light, are not on the MEL (Minimum Equipment List) and can legally be deferred for repair until a later time. But other things, such as a chipped engine fan blades, might not. It is Maintenance's job to defer the item, not for the pilots. In this current AA situation, I have not heard of a report of pilots refusing to take an airplane with a deferrable maintenance item, but perhaps buried in these long threads there have been such cases?

Is my understanding basically correct on how the maintenance reporting is supposed to work?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-26 03:33:44 and read 14971 times.

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 104):
It is Maintenance's job to defer the item, not for the pilots.

FAA and company regulations also require the Captains approval of the deferred items, in every airline there are pilots who simply want to fly, maintain their schedule and work with the mechanics / engineers, those are their priorities, there are others to whom the book and "safety" is first.
In a large operation like AA with so many crews moving around, it becomes a crap shoot for engineers to get to know the crews to know what they will accept or refuse.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-26 05:18:13 and read 14857 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 102):
People want cheap fares. You simply can't cut costs down and expect to run as reliable an operation.

Who are these "people?" Most business travelers - I'm certainly in this group - would gladly pay a couple of hundred dollars more for scheduling certainty. No one offers that product, though.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: DashTrash
Posted 2012-09-26 05:38:26 and read 14800 times.

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 104):
Now, a lot of items, like an inop reading light, are not on the MEL (Minimum Equipment List) and can legally be deferred for repair until a later time.

Anything that can be deferred is on the MEL. Inop reading light is a good example of something that IS in there.

I see the confusion. It appears the term "Minimum Equipment List" would be the minimum equipment you need to operate the aircraft legally, but it's not quite the case. MEL is a list of what's on the airplane, how many, how many can be inop, how to disable the system, and how to placard the system inop.

If it's NOT on the MEL, it's required for flight.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-09-26 06:36:12 and read 14676 times.

A few comments on your excellent post.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 83):
But let's not spin what is going on with the standard union rhetoric, please. Is there an illegal job action? No. Is there a union led job action? No. Is there a HUGE change in pilot behavior since the abrogation of their prior contract? You bet your fanny.

Right, but this is no surprise. Management / big business has taken away the union's ability to openly strike and/or openly have a labor action, otherwise there'd be an open labor action. Look for example what has happened with LH. Strike of fixed duration during announced times. Labor gets to make their point. Management gets to blame labor. Customers get angry, but can prepare at least a little bit. Instead, here we have this insidious destructive situation where the airline's ability to maintain their planes and to have a productive relationship with their workforce gets raised and customer's plans get randomly nuked. How can this be better?

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 83):
If the pilots seriously believe they don't need to make some concessions, then they need a reality check.

Do you believe otherwise? Plenty of evidence to the contrary out there.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 83):
But along with those raises, AA should be able to get higher productivity from the pilots, more lenient codeshare and scope agreements, more autonomy with regard to what equipment to fly where without having to get pilot approval in each instance and whatever else will bring AA to parity with its peers. If any of that is concessionary and therefore frowned upon by the pilots, then it is time to put the big boy pants on and deal with reality....you want to make more money? No problemo, but you will have to be more productive and will to concede some of the work rules that have made you the least productive pilot group in the industry.
Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 83):
Why they chose to then impose the most stringent terms possible though is beyond me. If you a mired in a labor dispute, the last thing you want to do is to impose draconian terms on a work group that can make your airline implode. Imagine how things could have gone if they had simply imposed the LFBO? That would have signaled the intent to do the right thing. To abide by the negotiations that have already taken place and communicated that while AA could do better in the short term, they are willing to live with a temporary solution that is better for the pilots while continuing to negotiate for terms that are mutually acceptable.

The two points highlight the dysfunctional relationship between the two groups.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 83):
I will conclude by going in an esoteric direction....happiness for the pilots will not be determined by how big their paycheck is. Generally, what makes people happy is a sense of balance, the ability to be oneself, and to be true to one's personality.

I'd add to that the belief that they have some input on their future, and that input gets listened to. Note I didn't say it gets implemented, only that it gets listened to.

AA management has chosen the thermonuclear option, with entirely predictable results. They may win the war, but their conquest will be a nuclear wasteland for decades to come.

[Edited 2012-09-26 06:37:19]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-26 06:39:09 and read 14689 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 108):
They may win the war, but their conquest will be a nuclear wasteland for decades to come.

The fist statement is 50/50.

The second is spot on.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-26 06:43:24 and read 14660 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 108):
AA management has chosen the thermonuclear option, with entirely predictable results.

Well let's hope - beyond hope, perhaps - that this extremely toxic negative situation can be turned into a positive. A new negotiation that produced a more reasonable contract versus the 1113 terms now imposed, might well provide a psychological boost to all sides. What the company really needs is not to "punish" pilots, but just to get a competitive labor contract. If the company were smart, they would try and engineer a deal that satisfies their goals and yet gives the APA the appearance of a "victory." That might, in a sick way, provide a psychological and morale boost to members who think they are screwing the company, and that - in this situation - might actually be a good thing.   

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-09-26 07:36:36 and read 14538 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 108):
Right, but this is no surprise. Management / big business has taken away the union's ability to openly strike and/or openly have a labor action, otherwise there'd be an open labor action. Look for example what has happened with LH. Strike of fixed duration during announced times. Labor gets to make their point. Management gets to blame labor. Customers get angry, but can prepare at least a little bit. Instead, here we have this insidious destructive situation where the airline's ability to maintain their planes and to have a productive relationship with their workforce gets raised and customer's plans get randomly nuked. How can this be better?

What needs to happen is that the Railway Labor Act is amended, so airlines are no longer subject to it. It made sense in the days of regulation, when any given route only had 1, 2, or 3 carriers. If one carrier went on strike, it may have been all but impossible to get from A to B.

If you were flying ORD-SLC, and UA went on strike, then your choices got somewhat thin. If you couldn't get on an AA non-stop, then it was CO to DEN, connecting to the original Frontier. Or, you could take AA or TW to SFO or or LAX and try to connect to Hughes Air West or Western. You could also take NW to MSP or SEA and connect to Western.

You get the idea.

Now, with 4 legacy carriers that have multiple hubs across th U.S., plus WN and B6 serving a number of large and mid-size cities, the only issue becomes how soon an airline can accomodate you.

So, instead of both sides waiting for a federal mediator to declare an impasse months or years after a contract ends, the end date of a contract becomes the strike date (or the date that a bankruptcy judge imposes a contract under Section 1113).

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-09-26 11:10:20 and read 14312 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 7):
Or .... have your pilots and mechanists take things into their own hands and screw the passengers .... well that's what happens.
Quoting commavia (Reply 41):
And apparently said Senators simply asked the pilots point blank what was causing the delays and the pilots of course said it had nothing to do with a "work to rule" slowdown, and instead was entirely the fault of AA, and the Senators took said pilots at their word. I find that interesting.

Hmmm...

I find it interesting that the majority on this board are more than willing to accept AA's word without proof - yet NOT accept the pilots at their word.

Let's not forget that AA has been short-staffed of pilots since before the bankruptcy declaration and have yet to recall any pilots. Do you remember when 100+ AA pilots were retiring each month BEFORE the bankruptcy?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2012-09-26 11:48:35 and read 14222 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 111):
What needs to happen is that the Railway Labor Act is amended, so airlines are no longer subject to it. It made sense in the days of regulation, when any given route only had 1, 2, or 3 carriers. If one carrier went on strike, it may have been all but impossible to get from A to B.

Completely agree with you. It makes no sense whatsoever in these days.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: justplanenutz
Posted 2012-09-26 12:12:59 and read 14124 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 111):
What needs to happen is that the Railway Labor Act is amended, so airlines are no longer subject to it. It made sense in the days of regulation, when any given route only had 1, 2, or 3 carriers. If one carrier went on strike, it may have been all but impossible to get from A to B.

Not sure I agree with you there. Had this been done in conjunction with deregulation, then yes. The industry was much more fragmented then.

However, 30 years later, an oligopoly has been allowed to replace the CAB. Due to high fixed costs (airplanes) and an inelastic labor market (at least short-term due to training requirements), a protracted strike would almost certainly result in liquidation of any of the carriers. And, given that we are likely soon to have only 4 major carriers in the nation, that would be disruptive to interstate commerce. Thus, we have the RLA, which establishes a political process to protect the national interest.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: justplanenutz
Posted 2012-09-26 17:52:11 and read 13876 times.

Heck, you can make a better case for repealing the RLA for railroads than airlines! Since WW2, railroad employment has fallen from 1.5 million to 225,000 (while the population doubled). Only 3% of commercial freight moves by railroad today versus 69% by truck. Other than commodities, there is not much freight that can't move efficiently by other means.

Can't say that about airlines, at least not prior to last week.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: AAexecplat
Posted 2012-09-26 18:53:38 and read 13759 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 112):
Hmmm...

I find it interesting that the majority on this board are more than willing to accept AA's word without proof - yet NOT accept the pilots at their word.

Let's not forget that AA has been short-staffed of pilots since before the bankruptcy declaration and have yet to recall any pilots. Do you remember when 100+ AA pilots were retiring each month BEFORE the bankruptcy?

That's all riveting stuff, but it doesn't explain why cancellations and delays have skyrocketed since the pilot contracts were abrogated...

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2012-09-26 19:05:38 and read 13723 times.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 114):
And, given that we are likely soon to have only 4 major carriers in the nation, that would be disruptive to interstate commerce. Thus, we have the RLA, which establishes a political process to protect the national interest.

4 major carriers, whose networks are/will be so massive and comprehensive that almost every market sees or will see service by all of them at the local airport or within driving distance. That's not even counting smaller players like AS and B6 who fill in gaps quite nicely. In a theoretical situation, suppose WN liquidated tomorrow. What market (not airport)would lose all air service?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: flyfree727
Posted 2012-09-26 19:07:33 and read 13730 times.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 115):
That's all riveting stuff, but it doesn't explain why cancellations and delays have skyrocketed since the pilot contracts were abrogated

Because their pissed! DUH
Just like AA was pissed when they voted NO and decided to spank them with the 1113.


AA ORD

[Edited 2012-09-26 19:09:17]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-26 19:19:20 and read 13689 times.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 118):
Because their pissed! DUH
Just like AA was pissed when they voted NO and decided to spank them with the 1113.

And ... we're there. Simple, eloquent, accurate.

There is so much baggage on both sides - and in both cases for some legitimate reasons - that both sides will have a lot of hatchets to bury, and a lot of water to bridge over, to reach some sort of a peaceful deal.

Call me a naive optimist - I hope they can do it.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: justplanenutz
Posted 2012-09-26 19:19:23 and read 13673 times.

The argument would be that the system could not easily absorb the loss of capacity from one of the "massive networks" and that that would be disruptive to commerce.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: AAexecplat
Posted 2012-09-26 20:20:29 and read 13553 times.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 118):

My question was of rhetorical nature...the point I was trying to counter was that the pilots were not engaging in some form of self help...

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-09-27 09:34:45 and read 13280 times.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 114):
However, 30 years later, an oligopoly has been allowed to replace the CAB. Due to high fixed costs (airplanes) and an inelastic labor market (at least short-term due to training requirements), a protracted strike would almost certainly result in liquidation of any of the carriers. And, given that we are likely soon to have only 4 major carriers in the nation, that would be disruptive to interstate commerce. Thus, we have the RLA, which establishes a political process to protect the national interest.

But, going back to my ORD-SLC route, if UA goes out, there is AA (non-stop or via DFW), DL (non-stop or via MSP), US (via PHX) or WN out of MDW (non-stop or a myriad of connecting points).

Labor gets frustrated, because mediators are loathe to declare an impasse. Management gets frustrated, because they may be in a position to weather a strike for several weeks and are willing to shut down to see if labor has the resolve to picket for an extended time.

The poor customer buys a ticket several months in advance, only to see that an impasse is declared about 30 days before leaving for a trip, or while on a trip.

I've know people who have pushed up buying a car by several months, knowing that the UAW is neogtiating with the Big Three automakers.

If a strike is creating serious problems for people getting from A to B, the president still has Taft-Hartley to send people back to work, if the airlines are removed from the RLA.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-09-27 10:21:01 and read 13152 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 106):
Who are these "people?"

The general travelling public.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 106):
Most business travelers - I'm certainly in this group - would gladly pay a couple of hundred dollars more for scheduling certainty. No one offers that product, though.

First of all, while I'm sure you feel that way now, I have my doubts that when push came to shove, that would actually be the case. That's nothing against you, it's just human nature to think we'd react one way in a hypothetical situation, and then find that we don't act that way when the situation actually presents itself. I feel pretty confident in saying that for every person willing to pay an extra 30-50% (which is what a couple of hundred dollars more generally amounts to for current domestic airfares) to have 95% on-time reliability, there are four or five who will not pay that, and stick with the carrier that offers 85% on-time reliability (the current national average). Can you run an airline on that one out of four or five? Probably not.

Airlines cannot deliver absolute scheduling certainty. Mechanicals happen, weather happens, crew issues happen. There comes a point at which the more airlines spend to try and ensure on-time performance, the less and less return they get. Eventually, it's just not worth it. And the airlines have people looking at this, watching bookings and figuring out whether they need to focus more on on-time performance due to fading ticket sales. Unless they're just out of it, you have to figure that there is at least some method to the madness.

-Mir

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: justplanenutz
Posted 2012-09-27 11:31:30 and read 13019 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 122):
If a strike is creating serious problems for people getting from A to B, the president still has Taft-Hartley to send people back to work, if the airlines are removed from the RLA.

I am not a labor lawyer, so I won't hold myself out as one. I have however been involved in the RLA process before. My view is that Taft-Hartley is a much more distant process that would not change the outcome (liquidation) of most prolonged airline strikes. I believe T-H was the legal basis for the Boeing SC 787 complaint by the IAM. While it did lead to resolution, look at the time it took. Boeing was already building 787's in SC while the NRLB had only filed a complaint. It just don't think that process works for airlines strikes. And, I don't think Congress can ultimately impose a contract as it can under the RLA.

It bears noting that the last time the President acted under the RLA (Clinton on the APFA/AA strike in 1997), labor supported his action.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-09-27 11:32:20 and read 13032 times.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 116):
That's all riveting stuff, but it doesn't explain why cancellations and delays have skyrocketed since the pilot contracts were abrogated...

Actually, it might.

The pilot staffing at AA hasn't remained static. Post bankruptcy, the company has continued to allow pilot attrition due to retirements and medical issues to diminish; the staffing shortfall is getting worse each month. Combined with the relatively old age of the AA fleet, the maintenance delays are forcing an ever smaller number of pilots to reach legal duty and/or flight time limits.

I've seen it before - at my (former) carrier, we went for a few years with fewer and fewer pilots. We were lucky for a while - and a relatively new fleet helped - but eventually, we reached a "critical mass" and dozens of cancellations started occurring in the second half of each month as pilots reached legal (F.A.R.) limits. The company's response? It must be a pilot "sick-out!" And the press never asked for the evidence - nor did the company provide it in the first place.

AA's management is conducting a classic example of what NOT to do in a crisis - it's time to rally the troops, not blame them for your failures. But go ahead, keep kicking the dog some more - but be warned, you're going to get bit.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: justplanenutz
Posted 2012-09-27 11:58:00 and read 12959 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 125):
The pilot staffing at AA hasn't remained static. Post bankruptcy, the company has continued to allow pilot attrition due to retirements and medical issues to diminish; the staffing shortfall is getting worse each month.

But hasn't AA reduced capacity along the way as well?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2012-09-27 12:57:30 and read 12925 times.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 120):
The argument would be that the system could not easily absorb the loss of capacity from one of the "massive networks" and that that would be disruptive to commerce.

The market would not be able to absorb the loss of capacity but it wouldn't need to. It would adjust to demand - meaning coach prices would skyrocket to more closely mirror business-class prices. There would be much less leisure travel but business and government travel would be largely fine. Amtrak would love it.

Now, if one of the big cargo integrators were to fold, that would be a much larger harm to commerce, in my opinion. For one thing it would result in a literal monopoly and for two, the majority of what is being shipped is needed in some form of industry or commerce, and is not personal package volume.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-09-27 14:32:26 and read 12782 times.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 126):
But hasn't AA reduced capacity along the way as well?

Good point. It's my understanding that the pilot staffing shortfall has exceeded the schedule or capacity reductions.

How many pilots does AA have on furlough?

Going back to the large number of retirements each month before the bankruptcy, AA didn't re-staff the Training Department; rather they chose to let the (pilot) numbers steadily decrease. And it's still dropping according to my sources.

I don't have the exact numbers, though. Could someone from AA post the pilot "head count" for each of the last ten years?

So, again, how many pilots does AA have on furlough? These pilots could be brought back with minimal training since they've already been trained before. Yet AA choses not to do this...

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-09-27 15:01:27 and read 12741 times.

At AA management and the APA are turning into Israel and Palestine. Eventually they have both wronged each other to the point that its pointless to blame just one without blaming both.

Im starting to warm up to the idea that Doug Parker should be in charge. Not because I think Horton is a bad leader, but the APA will never give him a chance. The end result is going to be the same whether Parker or Horton is in charge in terms of what labor will get long term. If this chaos will stop, let Parker run it.

However, the APA will hate Doug Parkers guts within 3 years of him coming on board. It doesnt matter who will be in charge, they will be hated by the APA. They have to be able to grasp that the airline cant afford to pay them pensions and that changes to the scope have to be made so that the airline can be more agressive in expanding new opprotunities. By the same token, we need somebody other than a bunch of bean counters running AA. AA's management since 9-11 gets a D- in vision, charisma, and being able to unify the company.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-27 15:19:12 and read 12656 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 128):
So, again, how many pilots does AA have on furlough? These pilots could be brought back with minimal training since they've already been trained before. Yet AA choses not to do this...

How does AA bring them back, are they under contract or some obligation to report to work, what would be their compensation, the same as when they went on furlough or the conditions that AA is putting in place now?
If they have been off for a number of years, how many would actually heed the call to return to work in the current environment, and if the situation is eventually resolved, how would their working relationship be with the current pilots?

I guess the simple question is, how easy is it for AA to beef up its pilot workforce.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: AAexecplat
Posted 2012-09-27 15:22:08 and read 12652 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 127):
There would be much less leisure travel but business and government travel would be largely fine.

You are delusional if you think that business travel would not be impacted if fares skyrocketed. I am pretty sure my employer would tell me to get used to using the phone and Skype more and I know I am not alone. Companies can't have their travel budgets balloon without it impacting their own bottom line. Are you guys in the business really that clueless?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-09-27 15:37:32 and read 12613 times.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 131):
You are delusional if you think that business travel would not be impacted if fares skyrocketed. I am pretty sure my employer would tell me to get used to using the phone and Skype more and I know I am not alone. Companies can't have their travel budgets balloon without it impacting their own bottom line. Are you guys in the business really that clueless?

Some will, some wont.

I work with a company that (at least 8-10 times a week) spends $1200 per person to fly from Dallas to Cedar Rapids. I work with another that often pays $1400 to fly from Dallas to Memphis.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: B727FA
Posted 2012-09-27 15:43:01 and read 12598 times.

Keep in mind with flights being CX'd: if there is flight on the SAME CALENDAR DAY as your original flight; even an EARLIER flight, you will ONLY be booked on those flights. The only time they'll hold you over to another day is if THEY don't have a flight avail on the same day. They don't care if you have plans earlier in the day; you want a seat, you'll take this one and be happy.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-27 15:46:07 and read 12613 times.

Remember, I am just the messenger and currently I am unarmed.

Apparently after the "letter" from Denise Lynn and another letter from her underling indicating they would continue to press additional onerous work rules in November, APA said that while they were willing to meet the company as early as tomorrow, they now are saying AA can screw themselves until they back off.

AA just keeps poking the pit bull in the nose and can't figure out why he keeps biting back. It doesn't really matter which side is right or wrong, it just doesn't take a doctorate in Astrophysics to figure this stuff out. Or maybe it does and that is the problem.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-09-27 16:00:38 and read 12570 times.

It seems to me (at least looking at the MIA airport flights) that the number of horrendously delayed flights and cancelled flights have dropped off quite a bit in the past few days. Has something changed?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: xdlx
Posted 2012-09-27 17:58:18 and read 12431 times.

I really do not understand something. What did DP offered that the AA guys liked so much.
Are the AA guys going to the top of the seniority in a AA/US merger scenario? How does the US/East folks and the US/West folks feel about this.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-27 18:13:37 and read 12451 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 135):
I really do not understand something. What did DP offered that the AA guys liked so much.
Are the AA guys going to the top of the seniority in a AA/US merger scenario? How does the US/East folks and the US/West folks feel about this.

I can only speak for the AA pilots. We are just desperate for a change in leadership. Once Crandall left, no one here feels that any of the top leadership, and I use the term loosely, has had the interest or ability to LEAD this airline long term. We just feel that Parker, while not perfection, would put someone in charge that wants to run a world class airline. The merger would not be a panacea, but right now, it is the only thing that gives us any hope for the future.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: B757forever
Posted 2012-09-27 18:58:20 and read 12315 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 129):
However, the APA will hate Doug Parkers guts within 3 years of him coming on board.


Or much sooner if the alledged promises are not fulfilled...

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: davidCA
Posted 2012-09-27 19:03:36 and read 12324 times.

APA's President has apparently written to his members to tell them to knock it off (although he admits to nothing). Will this make a difference or will the delays continue?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: AAR90
Posted 2012-09-27 21:53:24 and read 12204 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 137):
I can only speak for the AA pilots.

Correction please. You are repeating the APA public relations talking points. Nobody can "speak for the AA pilots"... especially APA. The AA pilot group has not been a unified group for more than 2 DECADES. Thanks to the internal politics of.... APA. The AA pilot group and the union that is known as APA have different demographics.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-09-27 21:54:57 and read 12222 times.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 124):
It bears noting that the last time the President acted under the RLA (Clinton on the APFA/AA strike in 1997), labor supported his action.

The pilots I know who fly for AA were madder than hops at Clinton (even though most of them had voted for Bob Dole in 1996), because they lost their leverage. Shutting down AA was the only way, they felt, they were going to get a decent contract.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 137):
I can only speak for the AA pilots. We are just desperate for a change in leadership. Once Crandall left, no one here feels that any of the top leadership, and I use the term loosely, has had the interest or ability to LEAD this airline long term. We just feel that Parker, while not perfection, would put someone in charge that wants to run a world class airline. The merger would not be a panacea, but right now, it is the only thing that gives us any hope for the future.

But, Doug Parker is just another airline executive who got his start at AA. My father-in-law is a retired business professor who also spent about 20 years in various white collar positions (including GM), before going into academia. His usually taught classes on organization.

There are a number of studies that show a manager/executive's style is most influenced by the culture of his first employer.

While Bob Crandall was a great CEO, the culture he created at AA does not turn out great leaders.

A couple of companies who do turn out top-notch leaders are GE and McDonald's. The culture created by Jack Welch has turned out a number of highly skilled managers and executives. My wife works for a VP who worked for a number of years at GE. She would run through a brick wall form him. McDonald's just seems to keep turning out great CEO after great CEO, often after something very sudden (Jim Cantalupo dying of a heart attack, and Charlie Bell resigning because of terminal cancer).

So, why would you want to get behind Doug Parker, who, in my opinion, is another protege of Bob Crandall who will furtther screw up AA? He tried to buy Delta. He tried to buy United. He seems more interested in buying a second airline (after buying US and merging it with HP) than in trying to run the airline he has. Remember that UA got into some trouble in 2000 and 2001, in part, because management was focusing on trying to get the merger with US approved and setting up the framework for putting the two carriers together, while ignoring the day-to-day issues of running a very large carrier.

A lot of pundits on Wall Street and in the travel industry thought the merger was doomed from the start, and that UA would have been better served focusing on making itself a better airline.

My wife was flying UA a coupld of weeks ago. The computers are still having glitches, even though the UA and CO systems were merged in March. In a span of 10 minutes, my wife's flight went from showing a delay of 1:15 to 4:05 to 1:20. Meanwhile, passengers were lining up to rebook, calling UA to rebook, calling travel agents, and calling family members, only to undo everything 10 minutes later.

She heard several people swearing off UA, because problems like this have been commonplace.

People have started to swear off AA, because of the delays and cancellations that they are blaming on the pilots. If AA merges with US and goes through the problems that UA is dealing with, you will see people defect to either Delta or Southwest, or back to United.

I've said this many times on various blogs. The pilots, if they take the T/A and the 13.5% of the stock, the APFA, and the TWU will have nearly 20% of the stock. They should be able to ally themselves with creditors/future shareholders to take control of the company upon exit from Chapter 11, elect a board of directors, and recruit a new senior management team.

Here are some places to look for a CEO and other senior officers:

A) Southwest. Considering that their culture stresses great customer service and great labor relations, there must be someone there who feels that by the time Gary Kelly retires, the board will want somone younger to be CEO. Someone would probably love to try a turnaround at AA.

B) Continental executives who learned under Gordon Bethune. Bethune did an amazing job after CO came out of bankruptcy, and the CEOs who followed him kept CO out of bankruptcy after 2001.

C) A hotel chain. Hotels still seem to understand that they have to take care of their guests, and hotel rooms aren't viewed as commodities the way airline seats are. Yes, hotels are starting to charge fees beyond the room rate, but they haven't taken it to the degree that airlines have.

Remember that years ago, the CEO of UAL Corp. never came up through United Airlines. He always came up through its hotel chain, Western International (now the Westin hotel chain, owned by Starwood Lodging). The board always felt that airline operations was more about getting planes from A to B, while the hotel side was more about treating guests well.

D) A cruise line. Again, this is a business the focuses on taking care of its passengers.

And for pete's sake, don't hire someone with a finance degree. Horton is a finance guy. Arpey is a finance guy. Finance guys don't understand that you sometimes have to spend money to make money, and they are clueless about marketing. Read Bob Lutz's last book and you will learn how finance guys make life miserable for the people who really understand a business.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: B377
Posted 2012-09-27 21:55:31 and read 12215 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 137):
I can only speak for the AA pilots. We are just desperate for a change in leadership. Once Crandall left, no one here feels that any of the top leadership, and I use the term loosely, has had the interest or ability to LEAD this airline long term. We just feel that Parker, while not perfection, would put someone in charge that wants to run a world class airline. The merger would not be a panacea, but right now, it is the only thing that gives us any hope for the future.

And yet if you read Crandall's letter in response to one of your fellow pilots questions located in another A-net file, you will find that the reason for his decision to retire from AA was due to his inability to move forward with new ideas or implement new programs. Why? At every turn, the unions challenged every move with wanting something in return, disregarding the overall improvement to AA.

No different than now. The pilots who are causing the current disruptions to AA are in turn destroying it. Sure, the entire APA organization wants the current management gone. But what would it do? You would just get another management team that even if it is Parker, will in no time at all be the next APA target for removal.

If the APA would only support the management to make AA the best run company for its customers and fellow employees, there would be an excellent opportunity to improve individual financial status. A successful company is composed of people who pride themselves on supporting the goals and objectives of the senior management. When that is attained, then you pocketbook will see some substantial improvement.

All this being said, I see at last, APA management has sent out a strongly worded message to its members to basically cease and desist on practices which are damaging AA flight operations. https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/AboutAPA/APAPublicNews/tabid/843/ctl/ArticleView/mid/1983/articleId/1939/Our-legal-responsibilities.aspx

Somewhat late, but better than never. >

[Edited 2012-09-27 21:57:19]

[Edited 2012-09-27 21:58:47]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: futureualpilot
Posted 2012-09-27 22:27:15 and read 12148 times.

Quoting B377 (Reply 142):

The problem is if labor gives an inch, management takes a mile, stuffs their pockets with money and calls labor the problem because they could only get a mile out of them. AA management has a bad track record with promise keeping. Shared sacrifice turned into forever lost wages and benefits while management compensation rose ever higher. From thee respective of the rank and file I would wager it has become a "fool me once" scenario and they refuse to fall for the same yet again.

Further, the fervor over Crandall's letter is ultimately pointless. He isn't running AA, he has an opinion consistent with that of executives, but you know what they say about opinions. What matters is the actions of both parties involved right now, not a CEO of years past. Why a pilot chose to write a letter to him is beyond me.

[Edited 2012-09-27 22:30:48]

[Edited 2012-09-27 22:32:42]

[Edited 2012-09-27 22:36:11]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: silentbob
Posted 2012-09-27 22:42:24 and read 12103 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 141):
And for pete's sake, don't hire someone with a finance degree. Horton is a finance guy. Arpey is a finance guy. Finance guys don't understand that you sometimes have to spend money to make money, and they are clueless about marketing. Read Bob Lutz's last book and you will learn how finance guys make life miserable for the people who really understand a business.

I could not agree more. Stop looking at the next quarter and build the company for the long term.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2012-09-27 22:51:32 and read 12094 times.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 131):
Companies can't have their travel budgets balloon without it impacting their own bottom line. Are you guys in the business really that clueless?

Guys in the business know that businesses will adapt. Some will continue on flying as if nothing had happened because it is essential to generating sales and/or a marginal part of their expenses overall, others will learn to love video-conferencing (if they can) or Skype.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 136):
I really do not understand something. What did DP offered that the AA guys liked so much.

He is the new guy they haven't learned to hate yet.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 144):
Stop looking at the next quarter and build the company for the long term.

Better take AMR private then, because Wall Street cares only about the next quarter...

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-28 01:39:13 and read 12000 times.

Quoting davidCA (Reply 139):
APA's President has apparently written to his members to tell them to knock it off (although he admits to nothing).

He is doing what the lawyers are telling him to do.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 140):
Correction please. You are repeating the APA public relations talking points. Nobody can "speak for the AA pilots"... especially APA. The AA pilot group has not been a unified group for more than 2 DECADES. Thanks to the internal politics of.... APA. The AA pilot group and the union that is known as APA have different demographics


Let me clarify. I am saying what the guys I know and fly with are saying.

Otherwise, I can't say I disagree.

[Edited 2012-09-28 01:44:51]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: justplanenutz
Posted 2012-09-28 04:46:20 and read 11812 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 141):
The pilots I know who fly for AA were madder than hops at Clinton

Are you sure the pilots were mad about Clinton intervening in the FA strike? Far be in from me to suggest something at AA didn't make somebody mad, but at least the FAs viewed it as a victory:

"Union officials immediately hailed the action as a victory, but Mr. Crandall said he was disappointed; arbitration would mean splitting the difference, he said, a sacrifice that American could not afford. On Sunday, he rejected a request from the flight attendants' union for emergency Federal mediation."

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/23/us...teps-in.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2012-09-28 05:04:40 and read 11813 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 141):
He seems more interested in buying a second airline (after buying US and merging it with HP) than in trying to run the airline he has.

US is running fine. Tell me what Parker should be doing right now, instead of pursuing this deal. And if it has anything to do with union squabbles, that doesn't count.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 145):
He is the new guy they haven't learned to hate yet.

The grass is greener in Tempe, apparently.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: justplanenutz
Posted 2012-09-28 05:22:31 and read 11758 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 141):
I've said this many times on various blogs. The pilots, if they take the T/A and the 13.5% of the stock, the APFA, and the TWU will have nearly 20% of the stock. They should be able to ally themselves with creditors/future shareholders to take control of the company upon exit from Chapter 11, elect a board of directors, and recruit a new senior management team.

Agreed. An entrepreneurial pilot group would serve AA/APA well right now. You can talk about WN's current wage leadership all you want, but you can't ignore how they got there. The 10-year pilot contract in 1994 allowed WN to grow their fleet from 178 to 388 737s. Today's industry-leading wages were the product of a long-term bet by SWAPA on growth and stock ownership, not wage parity:

http://southwest.investorroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1515

I imagine this conversation happening in AA cockpits today:

(after 2 hr delay to replace coffee maker/reading light/put wings back on a 25-year old MD80)
FO: "PAX seated, door shut, I guess we need to fly this thing somewhere."
CA: " Yes, but nobody can tell us how fast."
(during 57 minute taxi and upon passing DL/UA/B6 CRJ9/E-190)
CA: "This place will be a smoking heap before Horton get his hands on one of those"
(fist-bump)

Instead, that conversation in few years could be:

(at scheduled departure time on brand new A-319)
FO: "PAX seated, door's been shut for 5 minutes, ready for departure."
CA: "Let's go make 13.5% off this puppy."
(during 7 minute taxi upon passing OO CRJ9 in Eagle livery)
FO: "That new Eagle livery is growing on me."
CA: "That 13.5% off that flight is growing on me."
FO: "Huh?"
CA: "We don't just own 13.5% of AA, we own 13.5% of AMR."
(fist-bump)

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: AAexecplat
Posted 2012-09-28 06:26:45 and read 11664 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 132):
Some will, some wont.

I work with a company that (at least 8-10 times a week) spends $1200 per person to fly from Dallas to Cedar Rapids. I work with another that often pays $1400 to fly from Dallas to Memphis.

Exactly. The essential business travel will be happening, but any non-essential business travel for stuff like training, corporate meetings, periodic scheduled customer follow up will be axed. That will put tremendous pressure on the industry, and yes, pilot salaries in the long-term.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 137):
I can only speak for the AA pilots. We are just desperate for a change in leadership. Once Crandall left, no one here feels that any of the top leadership, and I use the term loosely, has had the interest or ability to LEAD this airline long term. We just feel that Parker, while not perfection, would put someone in charge that wants to run a world class airline. The merger would not be a panacea, but right now, it is the only thing that gives us any hope for the future.

You are delusional to think that Parker is your White Knight. You guys hated Crandall. Then you hated Carty, then you hated Arpey. Now you hate Horton. You will certainly hate Parker, too. What you guys/gals seem oblivious to is that management is the liaison between you and market forces. What is driving the airline is dictated not by management but by market forces. The problem is that market forces are not in your favor, but you think that "treating the symptom" will "heal the disease".

The only way that you guys will see a true difference is if a CEO was hired that was willing to defy the markets and Wall Street...someone who would not care about the stock price, but only about internal metrics. Someone like Gordon Bethune in his early CO days. The problem is that Parker is not that person, and that it will be very difficult to find such a CEO.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 141):
Continental executives who learned under Gordon Bethune. Bethune did an amazing job after CO came out of bankruptcy, and the CEOs who followed him kept CO out of bankruptcy after 2001.

Not so sure...Jeff Smisek was a Bethune protege and take a look what his short term thinking is doing to UA in the last year...

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 145):
Guys in the business know that businesses will adapt. Some will continue on flying as if nothing had happened because it is essential to generating sales and/or a marginal part of their expenses overall, others will learn to love video-conferencing (if they can) or Skype.

Well...the person I responded to did not at all acknowledge that business travel will suffer. Au contraire. And again...you are right. Some business travel will vanish and some will stay. But even if 40% of business travel evaporates, that will HORRIBLE news for any of you working in the industry, especially the most well paid (read: pilots) because the margins will be squeezed with a larger proportion of leisure travel.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: incitatus
Posted 2012-09-28 06:42:21 and read 11633 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 137):
I can only speak for the AA pilots. We are just desperate for a change in leadership. Once Crandall left, no one here feels that any of the top leadership, and I use the term loosely, has had the interest or ability to LEAD this airline long term.

Do you really believe this? Really...??? If at this particular moment in time your wages and benefits were not on the chopping block, would you be as concerned? Or would most AA pilots be as concerned? Say if AA was losing gobs of money for having a bad CEO, but pilots' wages and benefits were somehow shielded, would you be "desperate for a change in leadership"? You seem to be deceiving yourself. This is not about the CEO or whoever. It is about money, YOUR money.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N737AA
Posted 2012-09-28 07:27:47 and read 11607 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 141):
And for pete's sake, don't hire someone with a finance degree. Horton is a finance guy. Arpey is a finance guy. Finance guys don't understand that you sometimes have to spend money to make money, and they are clueless about marketing. Read Bob Lutz's last book and you will learn how finance guys make life miserable for the people who really understand a business.

Amen!!!!

Quoting silentbob (Reply 144):
I could not agree more. Stop looking at the next quarter and build the company for the long term.

But thats what all Wall Street cares about so thats not likely to change.

N737AA

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-09-28 07:38:47 and read 11587 times.

Quoting N737AA (Reply 152):
I could not agree more. Stop looking at the next quarter and build the company for the long term.
But thats what all Wall Street cares about so thats not likely to change.

There are people on Wall Street who do understand that regular earnings growth (say 5% to 7% annually) is better than trying to do something that doubles a stock's price in less than 12 months.

I've heard Jim Cramer say that it's great, if you find a stock that is poised for an explosive price increase, because it's launching a new product that will sell faster than the company can make it. But, he still suggests looking a 5 year+ timeline, when buying a stock.

But, then, you get people like Norman Pelz and Carl Icahn who expect immediate results, when they start buying a company. We know that Icahn is clueless about managing a company. If it weren't for him, TWA would still be flying. And Pelz tried to convince H.J. Heinz that too few people were putting ketchup on their fries, because of bad marketing.

At least he didn't try to convince Heinz to market ketchup for hot dogs in Chicago. Some people might consider that a felony.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-28 07:45:58 and read 11544 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 141):
And for pete's sake, don't hire someone with a finance degree. Horton is a finance guy. Arpey is a finance guy. Finance guys don't understand that you sometimes have to spend money to make money, and they are clueless about marketing. Read Bob Lutz's last book and you will learn how finance guys make life miserable for the people who really understand a business.

I disagree with that premise.

There is nothing wrong with having finance-savvy people in the airline business. In an industry as challenged at value creation and short on capital as the airline industry, prudent financial management is absolutely critical. Crandall was one of the most successful "finance guys" to ever work in the airline industry, and AA thrived under his leadership.

The problem at AA in recent years isn't finance guys, per se, but rather that there is less of a strong operational presence as there once was. There is a far larger disconnect between finance and operations, and as a result the finance guys have less of an understanding of the operational implications of financial decisions, and the operational guys have less of an understanding of the financial implications of operational decisions. You no longer have the Bob Bakers of the world, and guys like that, who could straddle those two worlds, credibly, and balance finance and operations. That balance has been lost, and needs to be restored - whether that means an operations guy surrounded by finance people or a finance guy surrounded by operations people.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-09-28 07:55:03 and read 11524 times.

It's accepted as a "fact" on this board that there is a pilot slow-down of some sort going on - but where's the beef?

That is, has AA provided any evidence of this? And if there is evidence of this, then why hasn't AA gone to the court to seek an injunction? Again, "where's the beef?"

From another board - so I won't copy and paste the comments here - pilot sick calls at AA are BELOW historical levels.

No doubt, things are toxic at American right now, but in my experience, it takes more than one group to produce that type of environment. It seems to me, that AA - like so many other companies - has lost sight of the human element.


*There have been a lot of excellent posts on this matter, in this thread and others, by many posters ("AAexecplat" comes to mind). Other than "AluminumTubing," are any of the posters actually AA employees?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-28 08:16:49 and read 11460 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 155):
It's accepted as a "fact" on this board that there is a pilot slow-down of some sort going on - but where's the beef?

It's being accepted as "fact" because, to use the courtroom analogy, circumstantial evidence may not constitute a "smoking gun," but it is still admissible in court. There is plenty of anecdotal, circumstantial evidence - up to and included the press releases issued by the pilots union itself - essentially confirm what is going on.

The internet is littered with reports from flyers of pilots announcing maintenance issues, at or right before the time of departure, for seemingly non-critical and non-safety-of-flight issues like coffee pots, seat cushions, etc., and/or taxiing at painfully slow speeds, to name but a few. Anecdotal, yes - but are all of these "eye witnesses" imagining what they saw and heard?

In addition, it is rather peculiar that the horribly-mismanaged operation with chronic under-staffing, old airplanes, and demoralized employees was managing on-time rates in the 70-75%+ range until just after the 1113 abrogation occurred, at which time those numbers dropped by in some cases 25-30 points or more. Again - circumstantial, but hard to imagine being coincidental.

And finally, we have the APA itself, which issued press releases stating (quoting): "management chose to reject the APA-American Airlines Collective Bargaining Agreement, which served as an operating manual for our pilots. Management’s action has generated significant uncertainty for our pilots with respect to employment protections and operating rules" and "pilots are taking a prudent and cautious approach in their operational decision-making process," The APA isn't stupid, and they're not going to acknowledge what's happening because it would expose them to liability.

But in both of those statements and press releases they are not really disputing what AMR management is saying - that pilots are exhibiting different behavior with regard to maintenance than they were 2-3 weeks ago. The APA is essentially acknowledging the phenomenon that everybody sees and the statistics obviously bear out - they are just providing a different explanation for it (without a CBA pilots fear losing their FAA license and/or being fired if they aren't abundantly cautious on maintenance) than management's explanation (some pilots are intentionally slowing things down to harm AA).

An airline doesn't go from 75% on-time to 45% on-time in the span of a few days because planes magically get older or the schedule suddenly becomes excessive at present staffing levels. Some have suggested that perhaps the maintenance folks are demoralized by the notice of a few thousands layoffs, causing them to be less motivated to fix things quickly. I could see that to an extent, but it still - in my mind - does not come anywhere close to explaining a 30-point drop in on-time. The self-evident reality is that some pilots are absolutely writing up more maintenance, demanding more maintenance items are fixed, and sooner, and taxiing "aggressively safe[ly]" (read: painfully slow). Whether you buy management's argument that some pilots are doing this intentionally, or the APA's argument that they are doing it to be abundantly safe and not risk their jobs - and I think it's probably a mix of both - is immaterial to the reality that, regardless of the reason, this is happening. Thousands of AA passengers - to say nothing of other thousands of AA employees - aren't imagining things.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 155):
pilot sick calls at AA are BELOW historical levels.

Sick calls are the least of the issue.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: mcg
Posted 2012-09-28 08:22:22 and read 11446 times.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 150):
You are delusional to think that Parker is your White Knight.

I figure the honeymoon period on a US/AA merger would be about six months. After that time the s**t storm will start. Merging seniority lists? Yikes, I can't imagine the agony. I still can't figure out why the AA staff is so enamoured of the US merger, I guess it's just change from what they have now.

Thanks AAexecplat for your posts, they are consistently on the mark.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: futureualpilot
Posted 2012-09-28 08:31:24 and read 11418 times.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 149):

Southwest's industry leading wages are a result of the rest falling down around them, prior to all of these bankruptcies Suthwest was near the bottom of the stack in pay.

Is that conversation before or after the few is junior manned to fly on their days off the FAR limits? Before or after AA exploits the loss of monthly minimum guarantee to screw them pay-wise? Before or after they outsource more mainline flying? I promise you no mainline pilot will say anything positive about a CRJ-900 flying routes that should be and used to be flown by pilots on their seniority list, no matter how pretty the paint job.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: mcg
Posted 2012-09-28 08:45:19 and read 11408 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 156):
The internet is littered with reports from flyers of pilots announcing maintenance issues, at or right before the time of departure, for seemingly non-critical and non-safety-of-flight issues like coffee pots, seat cushions, etc., and/or taxiing at painfully slow speeds, to name but a few. Anecdotal, yes - but are all of these "eye witnesses" imagining what they saw and heard?

My wife had an AA flight to DFW yesterday afternoon. Took 40 minutes to taxi from the arrival runway to gate. She described it as a "slow crawl".

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-28 08:47:23 and read 11392 times.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 158):
Southwest's industry leading wages are a result of the rest falling down around them, prior to all of these bankruptcies Suthwest was near the bottom of the stack in pay.

... not to mention of course Southwest's conscious strategy of buying off labor peace using unsustainable fuel hedging gains. Southwest's organic growth is over, and their business model which was kept profitable for years by fuel hedges has now ended. Southwest is, as a result, rapidly restructuring itself and evolving its business model to meet a new competitive landscape where there are fewer, larger, lower-cost competitors, and where Southwest is by no means the lowest-cost operator anymore. As part of that, labor is going to have to participate in that business model restructuring. It is absolutely inevitable, as Southwest's CEO himself has alluded to. Whether that labor-cost-restructuring at Southwest comes in the form of outright compensation reductions, or productivity and efficiency gains, or some combination is TBD - but it is coming one way or another.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 158):
Before or after they outsource more mainline flying? I promise you no mainline pilot will say anything positive about a CRJ-900 flying routes that should be and used to be flown by pilots on their seniority list, no matter how pretty the paint job.

And I don't think anybody being honest could blame any pilot for feeling that way.

Nonetheless, if AA pilots - for example - have a big problem with AA trying to outsource their flying to non-owned large-RJ operators, it does beg the question of what those pilots believe AA should do to remain competitive with Delta, United and USAirways, all of which have for years been doing just that - to a far larger degree than AA has thus far ever been permitted by scope clause to do.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2012-09-28 08:57:21 and read 11329 times.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 158):
? I promise you no mainline pilot will say anything positive about a CRJ-900 flying routes that should be and used to be flown by pilots on their seniority list, no matter how pretty the paint job.

Why not? The pilots agreed to that scheme.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: justplanenutz
Posted 2012-09-28 09:33:30 and read 11244 times.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 158):
I promise you no mainline pilot will say anything positive about a CRJ-900 flying routes that should be and used to be flown by pilots on their seniority list, no matter how pretty the paint job.

That is certainly the answer I would expect. But as you sit 7th for takeoff behind 6 large RJs with someone else's pretty paint job on them, crewed with pilots not on that carrier's seniority list, filled with passengers paying fares to someone other than AA, what you gonna do? Hope that with AA can somehow evade those market forces or take the opportunity to make some money off them?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-09-28 09:37:48 and read 11241 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 156):
It's being accepted as "fact" because, to use the courtroom analogy, circumstantial evidence may not constitute a "smoking gun," but it is still admissible in court.

Then why isn't AA in court seeking an injunction?

Quoting commavia (Reply 156):
The internet is littered with reports from flyers

Yes, the internet is full of anecdotes about everything.

Again, "Where's the beef?" If AA has proof of a job action (or whatever you want to call it), why not - at this point - go to the Judge and seek help? Since it's already been threatened, why not do it?

Blaming your employees - the AA pilots in this case - is not a solution to improving your service.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: justplanenutz
Posted 2012-09-28 09:42:08 and read 11228 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 163):
Then why isn't AA in court seeking an injunction?

Seems like they are pretty close to it, and I am sure there is some strategy as to how long to wait to do so:

"American Airlines threatened to take its pilots union to court if its members continue to disrupt flight operations and acknowledged that the delays are damaging revenue."

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/09...es-threatens-to.html#storylink=cpy

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-28 09:54:55 and read 11182 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 163):
Then why isn't AA in court seeking an injunction?

Because the burden of proof is much higher in a court of law than in the court of public opinion. I doubt AMR has enough concrete proof of intentional actions to stand up in court - I agree with your implication that if they had said sufficient evidence, they would already be in front of a judge seeking injunctive relief.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 163):
Yes, the internet is full of anecdotes about everything.

Okay, so I'll take that response to mean that you believe all of these people - myself included - who have personally witnessed some of the aforementioned things happening are just imagining things, or willfully lying. Incredible.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 163):
Blaming your employees - the AA pilots in this case - is not a solution to improving your service.

Is it "blame" or just "reality?" The operation has slowed down - dramatically. The publicly-available statistics "prove" that. This slowdown is in large part related to maintenance. Nobody is disputing that - including the pilots union.

I'm going to break this down and make it really easy for you to understand, and quote directly from the APA itself.

The APA issued a press release with "DECLINE IN AMERICAN AIRLINES’ OPERATIONAL PERFORMANCE" in the headline, and stated that it has observed "increased operational unreliability ... in mechanical delays."

So are you suggesting that the APA is imagining things, or lying? Is that sufficient proof that something has happened, to the point that the APA itself felt compelled to issue a press release?

There is plenty of debate about the reason for the maintenance slowdown. The company claims that some pilots are intentionally using disruptive tactics to harm the operation. The union claims that pilots are acting with an abundance of caution because of the "uncertainty" related to increased FAA oversight and the lack of any protective CBA. But to my knowledge, there is really no debate that a slowdown is occurring, except perhaps from you.

Again - incredible.   

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-28 09:58:26 and read 11152 times.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 149):
CA: "We don't just own 13.5% of AA, we own 13.5% of AMR."
(fist-bump)

Well UA pilots had a portion of UA before and that did not work out so well, as with everything else, just owning shares does not mean you will be a successfull investor.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 164):

Seems like they are pretty close to it, and I am sure there is some strategy as to how long to wait to do so:

In this case another poor business decision to wait this long, I guess they have sufficient cash in hand to blow a few million.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: futureualpilot
Posted 2012-09-28 10:37:14 and read 11058 times.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 161):

Agreements were made when times were different. I'd be more open to management suggestions had the pilots been allowed to work with management to find a balance and re-negotiate scope rather than watch a loophole be exploited for larger RJs at the expense of mainline jobs or watch their contract be shredded in bankruptcy and RJs forced down their throats.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 162):

Above my pay grade. As I sit in line I'm going to focus on the tasks at hand. When I'm not between the blocks I'm going to focus on protecting mainline pilot jobs and quality of life. AA could put big RJs on mainline property. IIRC the AA pilots nearly did so with the CRJ-700s that Eagle now operates but something beyond their control stopped it. I may be wrong but I do recall hearing the AA pilots agreed to fly them.. They'd still get the benefit the equipment offers while employing their own crews. I know Delta has pay rates for large RJs out there as well, so the precedent has been set. Instead they're outsourced to squeeze a few extra dollars into the bottom line.


Quoting commavia (Reply 160):

I agree, Southwest made extremely savy moves to remain viable and grow when others were struggling. I also agree that their compensation will change, but I'll support their pilots when they try to minimize the cuts that will come. Time will tell what the end game for Southwest will be. They're an apples to oranges comparison anyway because the cost structures and business styles are so different from traditional carriers. As far as AA goes, it seems Delta has found a healthy balance and I believe has plans to increase mainline flying, Continental survived with 50 seat limitations and a few turboprops (look, another exploited loophole) but somehow AA has been too inept. Going full blown Airways style with scope isn't the answer.

[Edited 2012-09-28 10:37:57]

[Edited 2012-09-28 10:38:29]

[Edited 2012-09-28 10:43:26]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-28 10:48:13 and read 11065 times.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 167):
As far as AA goes, it seems Delta has found a healthy balance and I believe has plans to increase mainline flying

Delta has found a "healthy balance," and that healthy balance, apparently much to the chagrin of many Delta and non-Delta mainline pilots in the U.S., includes tons of large regional jets - precisely the same regional jets AA wants to add. DALPA just signed a new contract that allows Delta to reduce uneconomic small jet flying and actually further increase the use of outsourced large regional jet flying. As for increasing mainline flying - all I would say is that yes, it appears Delta is moving to do that, but given that right cost structure, it appears AA is moving that direction, too.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 167):
Continental survived with 50 seat limitations and a few turboprops (look, another exploited loophole)

Continental "survived" with an uncompetitive scope clause - but I think it is very much an open question how long they would have been able to persist with that limitation without having to get relief and compete with all of the other major U.S. airlines who were flying at least some large regional jets.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: futureualpilot
Posted 2012-09-28 11:16:24 and read 10971 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 168):

Right, however the overall number of aircraft and seats being outsourced will be reduced. More large RJs, yes, but an overall decline in RJ flying. They're also adding aircraft to mainline albeit at somewhat of a neutral gain because of the Diesel 9s going away. I believe one of the big selling points for their new contract was the overall reduction of regional flying and an increase in mainline pay and flying. Any DL guys care to comment/correct?

Al that being said, I merely meant use it as a framework for an agreement, DL and AA are in different positions. If big RJs have to be used to make AA viable, there are better ways to do it than virtually unlimited outsourcing. Putting them on the mainline certificate, to be flown by mainline pilots would be the best of both worlds but unfortunately I doubt we'll see that.

We'll never know how CO would have fared now, much like the discussion over Crandall's response, it's meaningless. If it survives to be part of the JCBA for the new United (doubtful) we'll surely have an interesting discussion on our hands.



Side note: holy thread drift!

[Edited 2012-09-28 11:17:26]

[Edited 2012-09-28 11:18:34]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-28 11:40:00 and read 10927 times.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 169):
Right, however the overall number of aircraft and seats being outsourced will be reduced. More large RJs, yes, but an overall decline in RJ flying. They're also adding aircraft to mainline albeit at somewhat of a neutral gain because of the Diesel 9s going away. One of the selling points for their new contract was the overall reduction of regional flying and an increase in mainline pay and flying.

Right ... and as I said, AA is moving in much the same direction. AA has, as of now, open firm orders or near-firm commitments on, by my count, 404 Boeing 737/777 and Airbus A320 family jets, and that does not include the 42 787 nor 100 737MAX non-firm orders AA is still carrying, to say nothing of the hundreds of additional options. All told, that amounts to nearly 600 jets before options.

Being extremely conservative, and assuming:

* AA never takes delivery of a single 787 or 737MAX (which is doubtful)
* AA uses the narrowbodies currently on order to replace every single non-777 aircraft currently in inventory except the newer 737s (all but the original batch) (which is also doubtful)
* the new 777-300ERs replace existing widebodies on a 1-for-1 basis

that would still yield a net reduction in mainline of a mere 22 aircraft. And, again, that is with assumptions that are unrealistic and highly unlikely to materialize. I think it's clear that AA management's plan is for AA's mainline fleet to grow - particularly if they are able to emerge from bankruptcy with costs as low as AA is apparently shooting for - with that mainline growth likely be deployed far more intensively in international markets than domestic markets.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 169):
If big RJs have to be used to make AA viable, there are better ways to do it than virtually unlimited outsourcing.

The LBFO AA proposed to the APA did not included "unlimited outsourcing." It did permit expansive use of regional jets, including by 2016 large regional jets (65-79 seats) up to 40% of the mainline fleet count. But it wasn't "unlimited."

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 169):
Putting them on the mainline certificate, to be flown by mainline pilots would be the best of both worlds but unfortunately I doubt we'll see that.

Preaching to the choir. I have, for several years, been advocating a compromise where AA pilots agreed to competitive compensation structures for large regional jets in order to get that flying back at the mainline union. Nonetheless, that proposal was apparently not the direction that either the company and/or the union went, and either way it isn't really the way the industry has gone. Delta, United and USAirways have made no moves to cut deals with their pilots that bring large regional jet flying back to the mainline - all of have sought, and gotten, the right to keep that flying outside of the mainline pilot contract.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: B727FA
Posted 2012-09-28 12:30:02 and read 10835 times.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 140):
Correction please. You are repeating the APA public relations talking points. Nobody can "speak for the AA pilots"... especially APA. The AA pilot group has not been a unified group for more than 2 DECADES. Thanks to the internal politics of.... APA. The AA pilot group and the union that is known as APA have different demographics.

Well, semantics aside, APA is STILL the AA pilot's agent and as they are not decertified, they DO speak for the pilots. If there is a disconnect between the APA and the pilots, that's an internal issue. Vote the scoundrels out if they don't speak for "The Group."

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 155):
From another board - so I won't copy and paste the comments here - pilot sick calls at AA are BELOW historical levels.

Well, sure, they want in on the "fun!" 
Quoting commavia (Reply 168):
allows Delta to reduce uneconomic small jet flying and actually further increase the use of outsourced large regional jet flying.

Well, sort of...total DCI frames are being reduced and the capacity is tied to ML growth. It's a little disingenuous to say they're "adding" LRJ's.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-28 12:56:07 and read 10742 times.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 171):
Well, sort of...total DCI frames are being reduced and the capacity is tied to ML growth. It's a little disingenuous to say they're "adding" LRJ's.

No, not sort of. I was never speaking about the overall allowable fleet size of DCI in totality. I was speaking specifically about small RJs versus large RJs. Under the new contract, the fleet or large RJs is tied to the mainline fleet, and at the current mainline fleet size, before even accounting for any prospective mainline growth, the fleet of large RJs is permitted to grow. Yes?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: justplanenutz
Posted 2012-09-28 13:05:22 and read 10737 times.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 167):
When I'm not between the blocks I'm going to focus on protecting mainline pilot jobs and quality of life.
Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 167):
Delta has found a healthy balance and I believe has plans to increase mainline flying,

So DL, the folks that invented the RJ and exploited it with the LEAST restrictive SCOPE clause in the industry, has been able to grow the whole business including mainline? And, AA, with MOST restrictive SCOPE clause and pilots centered on "protecting the profession" from market forces, is in bankruptcy with less and less to "protect"? But this has no bearing on the future of the company and APA?

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 169):
Side note: holy thread drift!

Hey, it's Friday--the mind wanders. The mods don't want another AA thread anyhow
 

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-28 13:12:46 and read 10705 times.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 173):
So DL, the folks that invented the RJ and exploited it with the LEAST restrictive SCOPE clause in the industry, has been able to grow the whole business including mainline? And, AA, with MOST restrictive SCOPE clause and pilots centered on "protecting the profession" from market forces, is in bankruptcy with less and less to "protect"?

  

It is a fascinating dichotomy. It definitely raises questions about who is actually protecting what, and challenges "conventional wisdom" and logical assumptions about what is actually in the best interests of who.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-28 13:17:26 and read 10700 times.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 173):
And, AA, with MOST restrictive SCOPE clause and pilots centered on "protecting the profession" from market forces, is in bankruptcy with less and less to "protect"? But this has no bearing on the future of the company and APA?

Come on, let's be fair, the APA and pilots are doing enough to warrant our wrath, we don't need to have selective memory and pretend as if DL did not enter Chpt.11 just so that they could impose / get those consessions.

Remember now, AA seems to want to follow DL, unfortunately for some, they did not follow them a few years ago.
Better late than never 

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: flyhossd
Posted 2012-09-28 13:18:46 and read 10685 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 165):

After reading your reply, it's clear that we're addressing two somewhat different issues. I've primarily been addressing the alleged pilot "sick-out" while you're addressing the broader delays and cancellations. In my last reply, I didn't specifically say that, though.

Quoting commavia (Reply 165):
Okay, so I'll take that response to mean that you believe all of these people - myself included - who have personally witnessed some of the aforementioned things happening are just imagining things, or willfully lying. Incredible.

I didn't say they weren't happening, the question is why are they happening?

The pilot in command is required by regulation to ensure the airworthiness of a flight. To NOT do so is to risk a violation (up to $10,000 per) and suspension of his or her pilot certificate (months of lost pay). If a discrepancy is discovered before pushback, it must be dealt with. It's my understanding that numerous F.A.A. Air Safety Inspectors are on property, so it's only prudent to make sure that every "T" is crossed and "I" is dotted.

Further, "commavia" what is your background? Have you sat at the controls of any airliner? Or any airplane? If you're not at the controls of any AA flight, your conclusions (as are mine) can, by definition, only be based on circumstantial evidence. For example, I was once accused of a "too-slow" taxi by a passenger, but what had happened was that we got stuck in long line with a disabled aircraft at the head of it and that was compounded by a taxiway closure.

While my anecdote doesn't explain the delays at AA, it's an example of how wrong a conclusion can be.

Quoting commavia (Reply 165):
Is it "blame" or just "reality?" The operation has slowed down - dramatically. The publicly-available statistics "prove" that. This slowdown is in large part related to maintenance. Nobody is disputing that - including the pilots union.

Again, why? DId AA wait too long to replace their relatively old fleet? Are they trying to get too much time per day out of the aircraft that remain? UA failed miserably this summer when they tried to use the sUA airplanes the way they had with sCO planes. Or was that a pilot slow-down, too?

Quoting commavia (Reply 165):
So are you suggesting that the APA is imagining things, or lying? Is that sufficient proof that something has happened, to the point that the APA itself felt compelled to issue a press release?

Again, why? Airlines are remarkably complex operations and it only takes one weak link in the chain to bring things to a halt.

Are the AA pilots unhappy? Of course. But I've NEVER known a pilot to make a "write-up" that wasn't true. Do you have proof to the contrary?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2012-09-28 13:34:04 and read 10739 times.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 167):
Agreements were made when times were different. I'd be more open to management suggestions had the pilots been allowed to work with management to find a balance and re-negotiate scope rather than watch a loophole be exploited for larger RJs at the expense of mainline jobs or watch their contract be shredded in bankruptcy and RJs forced down their throats.

RJs were not forced anywhere. The union pilots agreed to allow other union pilots, in smaller planes flying for other companies, fly these routes. Unions have maintained the work. Next issue..

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-28 13:47:24 and read 10703 times.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 176):
After reading your reply, it's clear that we're addressing two somewhat different issues. I've primarily been addressing the alleged pilot "sick-out" while you're addressing the broader delays and cancellations.

You are correct. I was never once referring to a "sick-out." I take the APA entirely at its word that that is not happening.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 176):
I didn't say they weren't happening, the question is why are they happening?

Like I said. Again - I don't think anyone is really disputing that it is happening. The question is, indeed, "why?"

AA claims that it is, at least to some extent, caused by pilots (1) intentionally calling in maintenance issues at or near the time of departure, and (2) demanding they are fixed immediately rather than deferred, and/or (3) taxiing in and/or out excruciatingly slowly, all in an intentional attempt to disrupt the operation.

The APA claims that it is because of (4) AA's old fleet, (5) AA's tight crew scheduling and aircraft utilization, (6) AA's unenthusiastic, soon-to-be-laid-off maintenance workers, and/or AA pilots being extremely cautious with anything maintenance related because of (7) increased FAA oversight and (8) procedural "uncertainty" and the fear of AA firing pilots at-will now that there is no longer the protection of a CBA.

Of the above, I find (4) rather ridiculous, since AA's fleet didn't change in the last few weeks, since when AA was running at around 70-75% on-time. (2) is believable in the sense that pilots pissed off and with less economic incentive under the new 1113 terms are working less overtime. (6) and (7), and to a lesser extent (8) I find entirely plausible, but I do not believe that those things alone are capable of cutting 30 points of AA's on-time numbers. I think (3) is definitely happening - again, I believe I experienced it myself and the plethora of reports of it happening are too numerous to ignore - and I believe, based on what I have read, that (1) and (2) probably are also happening to a certain extent as well, but again the APA is claiming that if they are happening it is merely a result of (7) and (8), and not intentional.

Again - I think it's clearly obvious that something is happening, but why? And who to believe?

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 176):
The pilot in command is required by regulation to ensure the airworthiness of a flight. To NOT do so is to risk a violation (up to $10,000 per) and suspension of his or her pilot certificate (months of lost pay). If a discrepancy is discovered before pushback, it must be dealt with. It's my understanding that numerous F.A.A. Air Safety Inspectors are on property, so it's only prudent to make sure that every "T" is crossed and "I" is dotted.
Quoting flyhossd (Reply 176):
Further, "commavia" what is your background? Have you sat at the controls of any airliner? Or any airplane? If you're not at the controls of any AA flight, your conclusions (as are mine) can, by definition, only be based on circumstantial evidence. For example, I was once accused of a "too-slow" taxi by a passenger, but what had happened was that we got stuck in long line with a disabled aircraft at the head of it and that was compounded by a taxiway closure.

Never commanded a plane, and never will. And for that matter, I have enormous respect for the responsibility of those who do. I trust my life to AA pilots on a fairly regular basis.

Nonetheless, I myself just last weekend experienced a painfully slow taxi on a day when there was no meaningful weather or OSO issue, when there was no major congestion, at an airport (DFW) with ample capacity, and where there was absolutely no line for departure once we finally made it to the runway (first for takeoff, from spool up to rotation in under 30 seconds). I have flown in and out of this airport literally hundreds of times in my life, and seldom ever seen a pilot taxi that slow. Is this just a coincidence? Perhaps.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 176):
While my anecdote doesn't explain the delays at AA, it's an example of how wrong a conclusion can be.

Absolutely. All of these anecdotal experiences could be people jumping to conclusions and connecting dots that shouldn't be connected. Are thousands of AA passengers all wrong? Maybe. But, like with so many other things, when there are so many dots out there, people are naturally going to connect them - as AA management, and AA customers, have - whether correctly or incorrectly.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 176):
DId AA wait too long to replace their relatively old fleet?

Perhaps, but the age of the fleet didn't appreciably change on September 5. So what to make of the dramatic spike in maintenance delays just in the last several weeks?

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 176):
Are they trying to get too much time per day out of the aircraft that remain?

Perhaps, but the aircraft utilization didn't appreciably change on September 5. So what to make of the dramatic spike in maintenance delays just in the last several weeks?

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 176):
UA failed miserably this summer when they tried to use the sUA airplanes the way they had with sCO planes. Or was that a pilot slow-down, too?

I do not enough about that situation to comment on it.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 176):
Are the AA pilots unhappy? Of course. But I've NEVER known a pilot to make a "write-up" that wasn't true.

To be clear: I never have, and am not now, accusing any American Airlines pilot of "make" a maintenance write-up that "wasn't true." Absolutely not. I think what the company is suggesting, however, is that some pilots are taking maintenance write-ups that previously would have been considered non-critical, and been deferred, and now demanding that they are fixed immediately or the chalks aren't moving.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-28 13:55:07 and read 10672 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 178):
(3) taxiing in and/or out excruciatingly slowly, all in an intentional attempt to disrupt the operation.

A question, does airport ground controllers or ATC have some say in this, or at least if the slow taxis start to affect airport operation efficieny, can they not cite AA or regster a complaint?
I don't think they can determine how fast but certainely there is not an unlimited amount of time to clear runways and or taxi ways.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-28 14:01:32 and read 10689 times.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 150):
You are delusional to think that Parker is your White Knight. You guys hated Crandall.

I was speaking about what I am hearing from my fellow pilots. I have been called a lot of things, but never delusional.  .

I certainly don't think he will necessarily be a white knight. I have used the analogy with my fellow crew members that while things are terrible here, we need to careful that we do not make a pact with the devil either. A lot of the employees did in fact hate Crandall. I was not one of them. I met him a number of times and always respected him.

I probably need to do a better job of differentiating what I am hearing from my fellow crew members and what I personally feel.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-28 14:12:12 and read 10657 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 180):
I have used the analogy with my fellow crew members that while things are terrible here, we need to careful that we do not make a pact with the devil either.

  

Two words: Carl Icahn.

"Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it."

I'm not saying the unions aren't smart to have been doing what they have been doing with Parker, and I take the word of the union leaders when they say that they believe the merger and deals with Parker are in the long-term best interests of their members. Nonetheless, I think they should be approaching this entire thing very carefully, which I think they are.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 180):
A lot of the employees did in fact hate Crandall. I was not one of them. I met him a number of times and always respected him.

I think people respect his candor, his obvious commanding knowledge of the operation and the finance side, and his vision. While I have been more than happy to support AMR management over the last few years when I think they made right decisions, or heap ample criticism on them for the myriad of stupid things I think they've done, I would agree - I think with most AA employees - that there has been no leader at AA since May 1998 who was the equal of Bob Crandall.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-09-28 14:14:29 and read 10630 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 178):
(3) taxiing in and/or out excruciatingly slowly, all in an intentional attempt to disrupt the operation.

This is quite plausible, since APA has done it in the past. My understanding is that pilots were doing this in 1990-91, while they were in contract negotiations.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: 26point2
Posted 2012-09-28 14:46:32 and read 10600 times.

I can't be bothered to read 182 posts from a load of whiners for the answer....

Is there any truth to the rumor of a one-day AA pilot walk out Nov 1? Sure hope not as months ago I made the mistake of booking AA travel Oct 29, Nov 2 and 5. Whoops.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-28 14:56:05 and read 10581 times.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 183):

I can't be bothered to read 182 posts from a load of whiners for the answer....

Is there any truth to the rumor of a one-day AA pilot walk out Nov 1? Sure hope not as months ago I made the mistake of booking AA travel Oct 29, Nov 2 and 5. Whoops

I have not heard ANYTHING to that affect. I hope I didn't say that in a whiny way...

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: AAR90
Posted 2012-09-28 15:33:26 and read 10501 times.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 171):
Well, semantics aside, APA is STILL the AA pilot's agent and as they are not decertified, they DO speak for the pilots. If there is a disconnect between the APA and the pilots, that's an internal issue. Vote the scoundrels out if they don't speak for "The Group."

If speaking in an official capacity as an APA official, then it is acceptable to claim you are speaking for all AA pilots. That claim may or may not be true, but you can at least make the claim. When speaking as an individual, it is not acceptable to claim you are speaking for all AA pilots (unless you have already received confirmation from ALL AA pilots).

IMHO, aluminumtubing made a proper correction: those were the thoughts of those AA pilots he has spoken with. My experience is the direct opposite. Being the Captain on my flights, I know "junior" crewmembers will be cautious about showing disagreeing opinion(s), but my experience is that only a small minority of AA pilots buy into the APA rhetoric and that small percentage hasn't changed much in the last 20+ years.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: flyfree727
Posted 2012-09-28 16:10:18 and read 10390 times.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 183):
I can't be bothered to read 182 posts from a load of whiners for the answer

Why would anyone even bother to address your concerns with a post-starter like that??

AA ORD

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: futureualpilot
Posted 2012-09-28 16:49:10 and read 10324 times.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 177):


Yes, RJs were allowed by scope relief back when pilots received an increase in compensation and a good contract. Then airlines started using Chapter 11 to get rid of those contracts, the increased compensation and get further scope relief not agreed to by their own pilots. Between 2000-2008, more than 800 mainline airplanes were lost along with several thousand mainline pilot jobs and regional airlines grew like crazy. Many were old gas guzzlers but those lost airframes could have been replaced by the RJs rather than outsourced. This doesn't just happen to coincide with when bankruptcies hit most legacy carriers. Most pilots weren't offered a chance to fly those airplanes, nor were they given a choice when their compensation and quality of life was nuked.

I will admit, restructuring was needed but there were far better ways to have gone about it, and promises that were made to get some kind of mutually agreed upon relief weren't even remotely kept.

We're seeing it happen right now with AA. It's still a very relevant issue.

[Edited 2012-09-28 17:22:32]

[Edited 2012-09-28 17:23:31]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-28 19:17:09 and read 10146 times.

And the fun continues ...

The Dallas Morning News' indispensable airline business blog has collected American's on-time statistics for over a month going back to August 12, and the numbers - particularly when graphed on a chart - pretty much speak for themselves and make it fairly obvious what's going on. I won't copy the entire thing here, but I'll highlight the bottom line takeaway: "For 2012, the Sept. 13-26 average (I don’t have Thursday’s numbers yet) was 52.7% on time. The Sept. 1-12 average was 72.7% on time, 20 percentage points higher."

The APA is out with another statement tonight again restating that AA pilots are simply being abundantly cautious, and again restating a laundry list of legitimate maintenance issues that have arisen on AA planes in recent days. I'm not entirely sure what the APA thinks these statements are accomplishing, as some of the repeated statements about AA's fleet being excessively old, etc. just simply don't make sense, and particularly since nobody was ever doubting that legitimate, safety-of-flight maintenance issues should always obviously lead to maintenance calls, emergency landings, etc.

AA apparently replied to the latest APA statement with a statement that, while needlessly aggressive, essentially makes the point that many here have been making: nobody is disputing that pilots should be careful, that maintenance and safety are important, or that legitimate maintenance issues do come up, but the striking way in which so many maintenance issues have so suddenly arisen in the last two weeks does seem suspect. The AA statement also says - and I have no idea if this is true or not - that "the number of reports where a mechanic has responded to a pilot’s complaint and found nothing wrong have risen 97%." If true, interesting.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: B727FA
Posted 2012-09-28 21:23:20 and read 9948 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 172):
before even accounting for any prospective mainline growth, the fleet of large RJs is permitted to grow. Yes?

No. AFTER ML growth. Words matter. While your basic statement is true (LRJ gowth is permitted) your factual statement is false...that it's coming at the price of scope. Have to tell both sides of the story pal...this ain't "fixed news."

Quoting commavia (Reply 178):
Nonetheless, I myself just last weekend experienced a painfully slow taxi on a day when there was no meaningful weather or OSO issue, when there was no major congestion

That YOU could perceive. You weren't (as far as I know) in the FD. There could have been a herd of endangered wombunnies on the taxi way...you don't know.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: futureualpilot
Posted 2012-09-28 21:53:11 and read 9895 times.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 173):

You make a good point and I do agree that RJs are a necessary function of a successful airline. I still defer to CO and their scope, they were a viable competitor until merger mania began and mega-airlines were created. A quick glance at their earnings history shows them to have been consistent with other airlines that had more relaxed scope clauses. Now with the UA merger we wont know what might have been.

As I've already stated, there is a way to combine both. Put big RJs on mainline certificates to be flown by mainline pilots. Delta, the arr jay kreatorz has pay rates published for large RJs. IIRC, so does AA. I doubt they'd publish these rates unless they thought flying those airplanes at those rates would be profitable. Jobs are saved by allowing pilots to fly on a mainline certificate with traditionally better compensation and work rules. The bottom line for the company has a brighter future and less, if not uncontested use of regional jets. Except, perhaps from passengers who dont like "little jets."   Of course I'd also love Brooklyn Decker to walk into my hotel room on an overnight wearing only high-heels. I'll let you guess which one I think is more likely to happen.

Most pilots don't care what they're flying if the compensation and quality of life is there. Now that we have seen what a weak scope clause can do to mainline jobs, the majority of airline pilots, at least in my experience have a similar attitude.


Another side note: y'all have a great weekend.

[Edited 2012-09-28 22:09:56]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-09-28 22:28:08 and read 9859 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 188):
AA apparently replied to the latest APA statement with a statement that, while needlessly aggressive, essentially makes the point that many here have been making: nobody is disputing that pilots should be careful, that maintenance and safety are important, or that legitimate maintenance issues do come up, but the striking way in which so many maintenance issues have so suddenly arisen in the last two weeks does seem suspect.

"Striking way" - LOL! 

In any case, where does this all leave us?

We get it that you're unhappy because your travel plans are all fouled up, and your favorite airline is falling apart. We get it that AA is unhappy because they are losing revenue. AA can/should be using whatever legal recourse they have available, but so far, they are not - why not?

It's abundantly clear that the place we are at today has been predictable for months if not years, so what's AA's plan?

Please don't tell us that they were so arrogant as to think the pilots would not react this way to the yanking of their contract.

Please don't tell us that they are being gracious and trying to build bridges by not using legal action - that's just plain silly.

They've had the brass knuckles out for a while now, one more punch isn't going to matter.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: BarryH
Posted 2012-09-28 23:17:02 and read 9792 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 191):
In any case, where does this all leave us?

We get it that you're unhappy because your travel plans are all fouled up, and your favorite airline is falling apart. We get it that AA is unhappy because they are losing revenue. AA can/should be using whatever legal recourse they have available, but so far, they are not - why not?

I’ve watched in post after post as people arm chair quarterback management (all airlines) and their decisions with what on the surface appears very little business knowledge. I raise this because it answers your question.

After the judge’s ruling I’d bet anyone here management put in place plans to monitor and record disruptions caused by the pilots knowing as other’s have said that “poking the pit bull in the nose” would have consequences. The pilots didn’t disappoint. AA’s been tracking by pilot, by aircraft, by hub every incident that’s been reported and every statistic that’s deviated. Their gracious offer to protect inconvenienced travelers on other airlines is also being tracked. As things have played out, it’s doubtful the APA warning to the pilots will be headed and the disruptions will continue. AA, with their carefully calculated analytics, will present the judge with the detail s/he needs to issue a TRO. In addition, APA will end up paying for all the financial hardship (including flying passengers OA) in the long run. Who’s the spider and who’s the fly? Contrary to popular opinion, management isn't as stupid as they are being portrayed.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: pu
Posted 2012-09-29 00:11:24 and read 9711 times.

Quoting BarryH (Reply 192):

In addition, APA will end up paying for all the financial hardship (including flying passengers OA) in the long run

Management isn't the only party allowed access to bankruptcy court.
.
Any judgment AMR sought against the union can be dealt with the same way AMR dealt with its contractiual obligations - by eliminating them in bankruptcy. There is already a precedent of pilots quickly disolving and re-creating a new union.
.
...and besides fining the union, which can be overcome by the union declaring bankruptcy, what else can be used to enforce a TRO against thousands of pilots?

Pu

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: B377
Posted 2012-09-29 00:17:58 and read 9707 times.

Quoting BarryH (Reply 192):
After the judge’s ruling I’d bet anyone here management put in place plans to monitor and record disruptions caused by the pilots knowing as other’s have said that “poking the pit bull in the nose” would have consequences. The pilots didn’t disappoint. AA’s been tracking by pilot, by aircraft, by hub every incident that’s been reported and every statistic that’s deviated. Their gracious offer to protect inconvenienced travelers on other airlines is also being tracked. As things have played out, it’s doubtful the APA warning to the pilots will be headed and the disruptions will continue. AA, with their carefully calculated analytics, will present the judge with the detail s/he needs to issue a TRO. In addition, APA will end up paying for all the financial hardship (including flying passengers OA) in the long run. Who’s the spider and who’s the fly? Contrary to popular opinion, management isn't as stupid as they are being portrayed.

And I believe your statement is very factual.

Based on the "adult" response of APA to the threatening AA letter to take this to court for a TRO.

Here is how I see this playing out:

AA will indeed do so early next week and the APA will have to fight the TRO in court.

The 4 APA appeals to the court will be denied both by Judges Lane and Kaplan.

This will leave the APA with very little bargaining power, because AA will require, and rightly so, that the additional damages that these rogue pilots are causing AA will be deducted from the LBFO that they will present to the pilots.

And beyond that chapter 7 is still a possibility, should these guys think that they are really in charge of AA's future.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-29 05:42:18 and read 9506 times.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 187):
Between 2000-2008, more than 800 mainline airplanes were lost along with several thousand mainline pilot jobs and regional airlines grew like crazy. Many were old gas guzzlers but those lost airframes could have been replaced by the RJs rather than outsourced. This doesn't just happen to coincide with when bankruptcies hit most legacy carriers. Most pilots weren't offered a chance to fly those airplanes, nor were they given a choice when their compensation and quality of life was nuked.
Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 187):
I will admit, restructuring was needed but there were far better ways to have gone about it, and promises that were made to get some kind of mutually agreed upon relief weren't even remotely kept.

Pilots alll over admit this but nothing ever happened, so the RJ business grew, airlines within an airline etc. etc. etc.
DL's change which some are attempting to follow was also as a result of chpt.11, the same process being used by AA, the big difference is in the track record of the relationship between the groups, but the technicalities of scope and its prevention of bringing RJ flying into mainline at an affordable cost remains.

Quoting BarryH (Reply 192):
AA, with their carefully calculated analytics, will present the judge with the detail s/he needs to issue a TRO. In addition, APA will end up paying for all the financial hardship (including flying passengers OA) in the long run. Who’s the spider and who’s the fly? Contrary to popular opinion, management isn't as stupid as they are being portrayed.

Well from a financial position they are, whether we like it or not, the pilots are not doing anything illegal or against the rules and regulations that the FAA, NTSB or AA have put in place. So they can fine the APA into oblivion, how does that get a pilot to do his job differently, or better yet, how do they not pay the pilot for doing his job, or attempt to take his pay to pay the fine that his trade organization is responsible for, legally, since there is no contract with the APA at this time, can they be held responsbile, court battles will continue.

However, what it could show is that AA is putting together a hit list of pilots and mechanics for when they emerge from chpt.11, want to take bets on the natire of the workplace environment? Unions will be legally able to strike then, so unless they somehow get rid of all unions in chpt.11, everyone is going to have to play nice for AA to survive.

To be pessimistic, supporters of both sides will be able to have pride if AA goes belly up, standing on one's principles does count for something, at least it should, everything cannot be for sale.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: xdlx
Posted 2012-09-29 06:07:01 and read 9436 times.

Quoting mcg (Reply 157):

The only fair way to do a AA/US merger is to integrate all three pilot groups under one seniority list. By Seniority ONLY.

DP has not been able to do this with the present USw/USe scenario, how can everyone think they can do it when a third element comes into the mix. How does the APA membership feels about such integration?
Based on previous dealings specially with TW / APA expects everyone to fall behind them ! ......Not sure that is going to work if US/AA should find the honeymoon suite.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: norcal
Posted 2012-09-29 06:49:09 and read 9397 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 172):
Under the new contract, the fleet or large RJs is tied to the mainline fleet, and at the current mainline fleet size, before even accounting for any prospective mainline growth, the fleet of large RJs is permitted to grow. Yes?

Here's an explanation from a DALPA email, my understanding is the large RJs growth requires the 717s, though I haven't found the email specifying that yet:

Currently, the Company operates 598 regional jets through their DCI partners. This agreement establishes a hard overall cap of 450 DCI aircraft (and now includes large turboprops in that number) when the Company takes delivery of additional 76-seat aircraft
– Includes a hard cap of:
• 125 50-seat aircraft
• 102 70-seat aircraft
• 223 76-seat aircraft

– Requires the physical removal of six seats from all 76-seat aircraft if a pilot on the seniority list at date of signing is furloughed; these seats cannot be reinstalled until the most junior furloughed pilot is offered recall
– Requires there be no furlough of Delta pilots for 24 months in the event of a merger
Minimum required ratio of flying between mainline and DCI
– If mainline block hours decrease beyond threshold in the future, a corresponding decrease in DCI block hours will be required
- Eliminated conversion of 70-seat aircraft to 76-seat aircraft based on mainline growth
– 3:1 conversion to 76-seat aircraft above 767 mainline jets eliminated


Far more restrictive than the AMR's Last Best Final Offer

The maximum number of such regional /small jets with greater than thirty (30) seats (as operated) up to and including sixty-five (65) seats (as operated) cannot exceed thirty- five (35) percent of the total mainline narrowbody fleet count, except as provided in (c) below.

At 35% of the mainline fleet the company can operate 210 CRJ-700s if they so chose to do. That is double what Delta has. It is also far more flexible in allowing them a mix of aircraft.

There is no limit on turbo props less than 50 seats

The maximum number of such regional /small jets with greater than sixty-five (65) seats (as operated) up to and including seventy-nine (79) seats (as operated) cannot exceed the following percentages of the total mainline narrowbody fleet count in the years indicated:
i. 2012 – 2014 25% ii. 2015 30% iii. 2016 & beyond 40%


79 seats as operated, 3 more than Delta and 9 more than United (United is limited to jets certified to 70 seats i.e. CRJ-700s so in reality this is a bigger advantage)

By 2016 they'll have at least 240 79 seat RJs.

Most important thing there is no hard cap like Delta

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-09-29 07:26:44 and read 9314 times.

Quoting BarryH (Reply 192):
AA’s been tracking by pilot, by aircraft, by hub every incident that’s been reported and every statistic that’s deviated.

Seems like the right thing to do from their side.

Quoting par13del (Reply 195):
the pilots are not doing anything illegal or against the rules and regulations that the FAA, NTSB or AA have put in place

There is precedent for judges to decide, as mentioned above, work-to-rule is an illegal job action, just by showing the stats that BarryH is mentioning.

No idea if that precedent will be followed, but I think it's fair to say that history doesn't favor the pilots.

Quoting par13del (Reply 195):
So they can fine the APA into oblivion

They can also jail the union leaders which is a huge escalation.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 196):
DP has not been able to do this with the present USw/USe scenario, how can everyone think they can do it when a third element comes into the mix.

He doesn't have to. He could run AA on a separate certificate till conditions allow full integration.

Quoting norcal (Reply 197):
Far more restrictive than the AMR's Last Best Final Offer

The huge difference is that the deal was negotiated, not imposed. The DL pilots got something in return for their concession, mainly the 717 flying. AA pilots feel that their previous concessions have only gotten them promises that AA management has never delivered on.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-09-29 08:28:08 and read 9276 times.

Well, it's D-Day for me. Currently sitting on AA 277 MIA-LAX.... they boarded us around 10am for a 10:45am scheduled departure. Well, it's coming up on 11:30am, 1.5 hours on the plane and we're still at the gate while maintenance tries to "deactivate" a broken air conditioning vent in one of the galleys.

1) This plane got in from GRU around 6am and just sat. Why does AA just wait until 5 minutes before departure to find out about this "non-essential" in the words of the Captain mx item?

2) I'm wondering if the "other shoe" will drop and once we actually start up the engines, there'll be some "other" issue that requires mx which of course will lead to the inevitable cancellation.

Ugh...

On a positive note: The flight attendants are all super friendly and attentive (as is my usual experience on AA).

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-09-29 08:34:23 and read 9242 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 199):
Currently sitting on AA 277 MIA-LAX....
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL277 says you won't be going for another 20 mins or so, best case, and that the flight has been 45 minutes late, on average, for the last 7 days.

It also looks like you might run into some weather over Texas...

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-09-29 10:31:25 and read 9048 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 172):
Under the new contract, the fleet or large RJs is tied to the mainline fleet, and at the current mainline fleet size, before even accounting for any prospective mainline growth, the fleet of large RJs is permitted to grow. Yes?

No, B-717s have to be delivered for any more jumbo RJs to come. When the jumbo RJs are subsequently delivered, a certain amount of 50 seat RJs must be parked. It will reduce the size of the RJ fleet down by several hundred when all is said and down, and reduce the amount of seats at Delta connection by several thousand.

From there, there has to be a block hour compliance ratio if mainline flexes down hours that the regionals will have to comply with.

For the record, I thought allowing 70 more jumbo RJs was a bad idea and the 50 seaters are going away in large numbers anyways, so I voted no on the contract (for a number of other reasons as well).

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-29 10:59:32 and read 9052 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 197):
– Requires the physical removal of six seats from all 76-seat aircraft if a pilot on the seniority list at date of signing is furloughed; these seats cannot be reinstalled until the most junior furloughed pilot is offered recall

I don't understand the correlation, but will attempt to do some searches to get a better handle.

Quoting norcal (Reply 197):
– Requires there be no furlough of Delta pilots for 24 months in the event of a merger

Obviously this prevents or makes it more difficult for the the company to seek a merger in good faith, since depending on how the merger works, this cannot be assured, does mean the labour is having it written in stone that they control a part of the company's futue success, cool.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 198):
There is precedent for judges to decide, as mentioned above, work-to-rule is an illegal job action, just by showing the stats that BarryH is mentioning.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 198):
They can also jail the union leaders which is a huge escalation.

I am sure they can do both and I would take odds that the judge will rule against the APA, but my question still stands, how exactly do they get the pilots to work differently by such an action?
Most union leaders are not working day to day runs, most are senior and work mostly long haul routes, the rank and flie who are doing the bulk of the damage cannot be jailed as that would mean total shut down, so the fines, jailing of leaders will accomplish what, if they are ture leaders they may fall on their swords, on the other hand, they may find out how many of their fellow pilots have their back, can they actually deliver on anything right now?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 11:26:09 and read 9007 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 202):
I am sure they can do both and I would take odds that the judge will rule against the APA, but my question still stands, how exactly do they get the pilots to work differently by such an action?
Most union leaders are not working day to day runs, most are senior and work mostly long haul routes, the rank and flie who are doing the bulk of the damage cannot be jailed as that would mean total shut down, so the fines, jailing of leaders will accomplish what, if they are ture leaders they may fall on their swords, on the other hand, they may find out how many of their fellow pilots have their back, can they actually deliver on anything right now?

Right now, both sides are playing with fire. As anyone knows, when one plays with fire there is a tendency to get burned. AA can definitely escalate the situation, and they have show just like the APA, that at times they are capable of making foolish decisions. And last I checked, AA is no more fireproof than APA.

I truly hope they don't push for an injunction, because it would not change the way we are operating our airplanes, As I have stated previously, I have not operated the airplane in any manner that could be even remotely construed as being a job action. I would not change the way I am operating even with an FAA inspector, chief pilot or Horton himself in the jumpseat watching me. We are flying by the book for a myriad of reasons. It would be foolhardy not too even if they offered to double our pay. Any attempt by AA to cause any more conflict would truly be counterproductive.

If things were to escalate, I truly hope all of AA's fire extinguishers are fully charged. I had many fellow pilots call and text me yesterday to fill me in on the DFW union meeting as I was working. The meeting was held at the Grapevine convention center as was filled to standing room only. Each and everyone commented that the cloud of hate and disdain for management was so thick that you could cut it with a knife. There is a powder keg brewing and for EITHER side to escalate the situation would be extremely foolish.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-09-29 11:35:27 and read 8995 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 199):
Well, it's D-Day for me. Currently sitting on AA 277 MIA-LAX.... they boarded us around 10am for a 10:45am scheduled departure. Well, it's coming up on 11:30am, 1.5 hours on the plane and we're still at the gate while maintenance tries to "deactivate" a broken air conditioning vent in one of the galleys.

12:09 departure, so about 1.5 hrs late, twice the seven day average.

Quoting par13del (Reply 202):
I am sure they can do both and I would take odds that the judge will rule against the APA, but my question still stands, how exactly do they get the pilots to work differently by such an action?

My guess is that we'll all find out in the near term, and it won't be pretty.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 203):
Each and everyone commented that the cloud of hate and disdain for management was so thick that you could cut it with a knife. There is a powder keg brewing and for EITHER side to escalate the situation would be extremely foolish.

I suggest donning the tin hat and the flak jacket.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 11:42:44 and read 8978 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 204):
I suggest donning the tin hat and the flak jacket.

I donned the tin hat and flak jacket years ago. I always made sure I had enough outside income to support myself independent of the airline industry.

I have always tried to have the big picture and to view things as they are, not as I want them to be. I Guess that makes me conservative. Life is full of surprises no matter what industry you are in. I have always lived life checking my six and planning for as stable a future as possible.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-29 11:53:47 and read 8952 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 203):
We are flying by the book for a myriad of reasons. It would be foolhardy not too even if they offered to double our pay.

Are all of the UA, US, DL and NW pilots who did not engage in this sort of behavior during their respective bankruptcies fools?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: mcg
Posted 2012-09-29 11:55:37 and read 8929 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 203):
Each and everyone commented that the cloud of hate and disdain for management was so thick that you could cut it with a knife.

Maybe it's time to simply shut AA down and liquidate.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-09-29 11:57:24 and read 8929 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 203):
We are flying by the book for a myriad of reasons

Difference is certain AA pilots seem to drag *** while doing it

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 12:02:22 and read 8914 times.

Quoting mcg (Reply 207):
Maybe it's time to simply shut AA down and liquidate.

A wee bit short sighted, don't you think. How about before we go making over the top unproductive comments, we agree that both sides show a little maturity and attempt to solve the problem. It's kind of like the Federal Government. Both sides seem to have a problem showing maturity, leadership and the ability to compromise. How about we just shut down the US and transfer all the assets to ....you fill in the gap.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 12:12:29 and read 8896 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 208):
Difference is certain AA pilots seem to drag *** while doing it

To say we don't have a few bad apples would be extremely disingenuous. I have been around bad apples throughout my civilian and military flying, including pilots and others. However, the situation is far more complicated. True, we have been put into a position whereby we need to be extra careful. We are documenting each and every maintenance write up and delay to protect ourselves. And by that I mean personal documentation to include letters from doctors if and when we call in sick. Hence AA has quietly stopped referring to this as a sick out. I was blamed for a departure delay the other day. I was called on it and after referring to my notes and explaining the situation, it was determined by AA that the fault was due to "operational issues" and not me.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 206):
Are all of the UA, US, DL and NW pilots who did not engage in this sort of behavior during their respective bankruptcies fools?

I myself would not use the term fools to describe any fellow aviator. While not being specific, it does not take much research on the internet to glean a lot of information on issues and how things have been handled at the other airlines over the years. I noticed you are an attorney, and if you want to put me on the stand to "defend" my comments, I am more that willing. Just not on this venue.  

[Edited 2012-09-29 12:14:44]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: flyfree727
Posted 2012-09-29 12:17:46 and read 8863 times.

The UCC will eventually have to "wake up." My guess is a change in management would immediately fix AA's "operational" problems. AA employees, as proven by the numbers after the BK filing on Nov 29th up until 1113 showed that AA employees WERE rallying to save AA.. We are not, however, rallying to save AA Management. I too, formulated a plan B for myself, in 2003, when I voted NO to concessions, because I felt like without a change in AMR's business plan, employee concession were a bandaid on a bleeding wound, and we'd end up here anyway. And we did, as is now court record that AA had NO plan following the employee concession of 2003, except to "kick the can" hoping the economy would quickly recover. For whatever reason, childlish, silly, ligit, etc. the hatred towards current AA management will forever hinder the forward moving momentum that is required. Perception is reality. And our reality is this management team sucks.

AA ORD

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 12:21:57 and read 8854 times.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 211):

The UCC will eventually have to "wake up." My guess is a change in management would immediately fix AA's "operational" problems. AA employees, as proven by the numbers after the BK filing on Nov 29th up until 1113 showed that AA employees WERE rallying to save AA.. We are not, however, rallying to save AA Management. I too, formulated a plan B for myself, in 2003, when I voted NO to concessions, because I felt like without a change in AMR's business plan, employee concession were a bandaid on a bleeding wound, and we'd end up here anyway. And we did, as is now court record that AA had NO plan following the employee concession of 2003, except to "kick the can" hoping the economy would quickly recover. For whatever reason, childlish, silly, ligit, etc. the hatred towards current AA management will forever hinder the forward moving momentum that is required. Perception is reality. And our reality is this management team sucks.

Sad, but true.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: davidCA
Posted 2012-09-29 12:26:47 and read 8848 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 203):
We are flying by the book for a myriad of reasons

Thanks for your posts, Aluminumtubing. They're informative, and I admire your ability to see both sides of the issues and to respond as rationally as you do.

I'm curious as to where you see things going from here. AA, obviously, is not going to survive unless it gets its operation back to a more reliable state. Most pilots, as you have explained, feel that they've been put in a position where they need to be extra extra careful regardless of the effect on the operation. How will this end? Is there any chance of a negotiated settlement over the short to medium term?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-29 12:30:09 and read 8841 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 210):
While not being specific, it does not take much research on the internet to glean a lot
of information on issues and how things have been handled at the other airlines over the years.

I'd agree with that. Surely, though, you'd agree with me that other carriers didn't see the same operational disruptions that AA pilots (among other issues at AA) have caused. Why the different results at AA?

[Edited 2012-09-29 12:32:40]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2012-09-29 12:38:21 and read 8813 times.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 211):
For whatever reason, childlish, silly, ligit, etc. the hatred towards current AA management will forever hinder the forward moving momentum that is required. Perception is reality. And our reality is this management team sucks.

A change in AMR management is absolutely needed, but in order to restore the confidence of investors, it must be matched by a change in APA management...

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 12:49:42 and read 8803 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 214):
I'd agree with that. Surely, though, you'd agree with me that other carriers didn't see the same operational disruptions that AA pilots (among other issues at AA) have caused. Why the different results at AA?

Unfortunately, I have to be very careful what I say. Over the years, there have very definitely been serious operational issues at other carries, up to and including strikes. While the airline industry has had a habit of not hiring brainiacs to run airlines, AA managers have truly been case studies on how not to run an airline. Or more importantly, on how not to treat people who you want to help you succeed. I think most on this site would agree with that. AA management just seems to want to keep pushing the pilots' buttons. As a pilot, I have to push buttons all the time. I just have to make sure I push the correct one at the correct time. It's something they have not yet learned.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-29 12:57:11 and read 8764 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 206):
Are all of the UA, US, DL and NW pilots who did not engage in this sort of behavior during their respective bankruptcies fools?
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 214):
Surely, though, you'd agree with me that other carriers didn't see the same operational disruptions that AA pilots (among other issues at AA) have caused. Why the different results at AA?

Welll one has to consider the environment in terms of the relationship between management and the workforce, UA comes closest to AA and we all know the troubles UA had, their chpt.11 filing changed the law.
DL has had a good relationship with its pilots / union and they worked together to get something done before and during the chpt.11 process.

AA and its unions have been working on a new contract for years prior to the chpt.11 filing, they seem to not be speaking the same language, and the judge and creditors either cannot translate or they are hard of hearing.
Unfortunately, this situation needs someone to step up, expecting that person to come from labour is less likely, someone can come from the creditors side, but if it is with promises they have to be real charismatic to get trust.

Hope springs eternal, as a pax it will be dark days for a while if AA goes belly up.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 13:09:45 and read 8753 times.

Quoting davidCA (Reply 213):
Thanks for your posts, Aluminumtubing. They're informative, and I admire your ability to see both sides of the issues and to respond as rationally as you do.

I'm curious as to where you see things going from here. AA, obviously, is not going to survive unless it gets its operation back to a more reliable state. Most pilots, as you have explained, feel that they've been put in a position where they need to be extra extra careful regardless of the effect on the operation. How will this end? Is there any chance of a negotiated settlement over the short to medium term?

Thanks. Sometimes, I just think about aborting my posts and just going around. But I have had several private messages asking me to continue posting. So here goes.

As far as where AA goes from here, I think it is up to AA management and the creditors. Neither entity will succeed in their goals without the pilots onboard. Do I think this will turn into a chapter 7, no I do not. In todays global environment however, nothing would surprise me on any subject. However, I think the likely scenario is that the creditors would push more for a merger with US or some other combination, hopefully without Horton and company.

As long as AA and the feds are looking at us as closely as they are, we will continue to be extra careful. We no longer have many contractual provisions that will give a pilot a "fair trial" as it were if they were to make any mistakes. AA is truly on a witch hunt right now and with the traps out no one want to get ensnared.

Hopefully this will end with an agreement both sides can live with. While my bottom line may differ from most other pilots, they want an industry standard contract. There is no reason there can't be a short term compromise so that AA can exit bankruptcy in a manner that will let them become profitable while having protocols in place that will put the pilots on par with our peers.

One problem, is the me too clauses in the contracts with the other groups. Here is where I am going to be attacked. We don't care. The company put that into their other agreements and they need to find away around that. I understand there are a number of ways to make that work. I know many here think the pilots are arrogant, etc. But reality dictates that we have a skill set that is very different and much harder to come by than many other skills. At a hospital, you have orderlies and doctors. A doctor is no better a person and certainly has no more worth as a human being than the orderly just because he has a skill set the other does not. It just puts him in a better position to earn a higher wage because he has a skill set that comes in smaller numbers. So this is going to be a difficult work around, but I have been told there are ways.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: mcg
Posted 2012-09-29 13:38:24 and read 8665 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 209):
Quoting mcg (Reply 207):
Maybe it's time to simply shut AA down and liquidate.

A wee bit short sighted, don't you think.

Actually, maybe not. Any employer/labor group relationship defined by 'cloud of hate and disdain' is not sustainable. Maybe it's better to just face the music and move on. It'd be painful for everyone in the short run, but I think the air transport system would adapt pretty quickly and the pilots could go find better jobs.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 13:49:00 and read 8644 times.

Quoting mcg (Reply 219):
Quoting mcg (Reply 219):
Actually, maybe not. Any employer/labor group relationship defined by 'cloud of hate and disdain' is not sustainable. Maybe it's better to just face the music and move on. It'd be painful for everyone in the short run, but I think the air transport system would adapt pretty quickly and the pilots could go find better jobs.

Again, a wee bit short sighted, don't you think. I think it much more adult to solve a problem than to run away a coward.
Men solve problems, cowards run away.  

If we disagree on that, I don't know what to say.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-29 14:04:26 and read 8586 times.

Quoting mcg (Reply 219):
but I think the air transport system would adapt pretty quickly and the pilots could go find better jobs.

System would adapt in a few years when new entrants force the new incumbents to lower prices and improve capacity after the massive fall off.
As for the pilots, good luck to them, the seniority structure that they have put in place across the profession means that they will have to start at the bottom of the rung or close to it at any new carrier, I would expect retirements in the senior rank and more looking for other jobs. All other majors have current contracts and management would be hard pressed to get their workers to adjust contracts to bring on new hires more easily.
It's why I think the pilots today need to bite the bullet and get AA out of chpt.11 ASAP, have a single day of protest and gum up the work across the entire network to make you point, then go back to same old same old before the abrogation.
Personally, I think they should have struck a few years ago rather than drag the negotiations on for years getting everybody p**** off, that's the militant in me, sorry.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 14:13:33 and read 8569 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 221):
Personally, I think they should have struck a few years ago rather than drag the negotiations on for years getting everybody p**** off, that's the militant in me, sorry.

Whether the pilots should have struck or not is a mute point. The NMB was not doing there job and it was all so political, that the parties were never released from mediation.

One overlooked point on the current situation.... The APA asked American to agree to binding arbitration in order to break the impasse during the bankruptcy negotiations. AA, rather than be rational, knowing they could nuke us with the 1113 filing declined. Some may say sure, why not. Who wouldn't take the advantage? Well, if you are going to steal the pit bull's doggie bone, you might wait until is asleep. They yanked it right out under his wide awake nose and now they and everyone is shocked they got bit. I think Psychology needs to be a basic staple in elementary school.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: BarryH
Posted 2012-09-29 14:30:03 and read 8491 times.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 211):
The UCC will eventually have to "wake up."


They're wide awake. And I'd presume performing the function they're assigned. Which is to dispassionately participate (not decide in isolation) what's the best short and long term path for creditors and stakeholders to receive the maximum value for the debt they hold in AA.

There are two options on the table: 1) the stand-alone business plan AA's working on, and 2) a plan that involves some type of combination with another entity. Based on the goals set out by AA when they went in to bankruptcy, management's doing an excellent job at meeting the cost savings benchmarks they outlined in the early stand-alone plan. So grading them against that goal they'd get a strong B as all the savings and flexibility projected are being realized with appropriate speed and all but one of their unions agreed to the goals consensually.

I'd also assume in parallel AA's doing the appropriate thing by weighing the risks and benefits to creditors and stakeholders of some type of combination. When that's done, there will be two potential paths presented to the judge, debt, and stake holders along with a recommendation as to which maximizes value best. The financial risks of a combination could easily kill that option based on what the long and short term financial benefit of it is. At least until the business climate changes and AA's on stronger footing. It's no different than a hospital patient with multiple traumas. Addressing them all at the same time can put the patient at risk.

If there is a combination who will manage it is far from a foregone conclusion. US Airways is owned by shareholders and just because Doug Parker made the first overture doesn’t mean those shareholders are along for the ride. Should there be a combination the management of it will be decided based on what’s best for the new combined entity. Not the rank-and-file’s personal opinions and preferences.

At the end of the day management outwardly appears to be doing the right things for the benefit of the whole. With that, there's absolutely no reason for any discussions of their replacement. "Gets along well with others" would be a nice accomplishment but that's not what their success or failure in getting AA out of bankruptcy will be judged on. And based on history "gets along with others" is probably a futile goal, at least at this point because as soon as the first unpleasant event or decision by (any) management occurs it’ll be back to square one again. If you guys want to try and project an outcome you first need to take all the emotion out of it. Those making decisions on all sides certainly have.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: norcal
Posted 2012-09-29 14:35:41 and read 8482 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 202):
I don't understand the correlation, but will attempt to do some searches to get a better handle.

It means that any pilot on the Delta seniority list at the date of signing (whenever the contract was ratified) will be furlough protected. If the company has to furlough any of those pilots employed at the time of signing then they must physically remove 6 seats from all the 76 seaters. E.g. if they furlough pilots all CRJ-900s and E-175s become 70 seat aircraft.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: pu
Posted 2012-09-29 15:42:25 and read 8316 times.

Quoting BarryH (Reply 223):
you first need to take all the emotion out of it.

If this were a matter of choosing suppliers of fungible goods that would be entirely true.

However, it is the failure to account for the human factors , like emotions, in labor relations which has brought AA management to the turmoil of today.....while, for instance the Delta pilots and Delta management worked things out reasonably well. MBAs managing by spreadsheet never works for long where good relationships matter.
.
Southwest pilots enjoy high pay and their employer enjoys peerless financial health in large part because they embrace each other's human needs, including emotions...not just their financial role in the company.

Pu

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-29 15:42:45 and read 8340 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 216):
Or more importantly, on how not to treat people who you want to help you succeed.
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 216):
It's something [AA managers] have not yet learned.

Just to be clear, then, do you agree that AA pilots are taking this job action to make a point with management, likely in violation of Section 362?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 16:02:19 and read 8373 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 226):
Just to be clear, then, do you agree that AA pilots are taking this job action to make a point with management, likely in violation of Section 362?

Just to be clear, absolutely not. I am not aware of ANY job action. Period. I made a general statement that AA does not know how to treat its employees. Period. It goes without saying that if you want employees to bust their butts on your behalf, there are ways to go about it. Yes, they are pushing the pilots' buttons. Even a cranially challenged Hippo can see that. That doesn't mean that there is a job action as a result. Pilots are NOT calling in sick. This is not a sickout as AA has attempted to portray. In fact, after statistics came out to the contrary, they backed off of their claim. I don't know a single pilot sick who does not have the proper documentation. I actually had a doctor tell me I needed a couple of days off for an issue. He offered to provide documentation knowing what the situation is. Since I have a work ethic and since the issue was not against FAA regulations I went to work and flew my trip. My neighbor was in the same boat and showed up for work as well. So, no job action caused by a sickout. Are we writing up ridiculous maintenance items? I say NO. The last several aircraft I received had several write ups. I can look you or anyone else in the eye and say that each and every write up I personally saw in each and every logbook was TOTALLY legitimate by ANYONE'S definition and should have been written up even if things were perfect. I have made some entries as well, and again, I would have made the same write ups if Horton or the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court was in the cockpit with me. Are we being extra careful under the circumstances? How could we not be. We are under a highly focused microscope. Go get permission from the FAA to ride jumpseat with me (Iam very senior and fly great trips) and you can see first hand what's going on. So, are we in violation of Section 362, NO. Not even 150.172.177, or 180. If you check the numerical pattern you might recognize those as being Cessna aircraft models.

Now, you see why one must be very careful on this site. People like to twist things about.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-29 16:21:45 and read 8333 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 227):
I can look you or anyone else in the eye and say that each and every write up I personally saw in each and every logbook was TOTALLY legitimate by ANYONE'S definition and should have been written up even if things were perfect.

All right. Then we are back to my original question: if all that is going on is pilots being more careful because FAA is more diligent when a carrier is in bankruptcy, why do we see horrendous operational statistics at AA when we did not see them at other legacies that were in bankruptcy in the last decade? Your answer to that question seemed to be "because management does not respect pilots and other workgroups enough" (if I misunderstood your answer, please tell me where I went wrong). If that is the answer, it sounds like there has to be some sort of job action going on. If there is some other answer, I'd like to hear it.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 227):
So, are we in violation of Section 362, NO.

Any job action by pilots probably violates Section 362. The "job action" question and the 362 question are basically one and the same.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 16:37:18 and read 8305 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 228):
Any job action by pilots probably violates Section 362. The "job action" question and the 362 question are basically one and the same.

Surprisingly, I knew that!  
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 228):
why do we see horrendous operational statistics at AA when we did not see them at other legacies that were in bankruptcy

I honestly can't tell you for sure. I know they have non-pilot scheduling issues as well as shortages of employees in general. I have had a number of issues regarding just that, not to mention Sabre outages, etc. They are pulling aircraft out of service quite frequently. They would only do that for a legitimate maintenance item that rendered the aircraft un-airworthy. Any minor write up can be deferred or placarded and would only result in a minor delay. I actually had them take an aircraft out of service for an early morning go and swap aircraft before my FO and I even arrived at the aircraft. Why? I didn't do anything to cause it.

The only other item, is flights being cancelled because of a missing crew member or members. Why? I saw the open time list for the month of October. A huge list of open trips needing to be filled by pilots. I am flying the max and almost all those trips were picked up when the computer trading and trip pick up program was turned on for the month. There are just a few open trips for next month. No more that the historical average. I will swear on my Grandmother's grave to that.

We had dinner with another pilot and his wife last night. We asked each other how things could be going so badly. We joked that the pilots are being blamed for everything, but we couldn't mess things up this bad if we tried. This airline is truly mismanaged and AA management has NEVER taken responsibility for anything. I was always taught that good leadership takes responsibility.

So why are things so messed up? I truly don't know. I wish I did. I am just presenting the facts as I know them, and see them.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: norcal
Posted 2012-09-29 16:37:18 and read 8291 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 228):
All right. Then we are back to my original question: if all that is going on is pilots being more careful because FAA is more diligent when a carrier is in bankruptcy, why do we see horrendous operational statistics at AA when we did not see them at other legacies that were in bankruptcy in the last decade? Your answer to that question seemed to be "because management does not respect pilots and other workgroups enough" (if I misunderstood your answer, please tell me where I went wrong). If that is the answer, it sounds like there has to be some sort of job action going on. If there is some other answer, I'd like to hear it.

The difference is that this is the first time a pilot group has had their contract tossed by a judge. Everyone else had negotiated contracts in place instead of the 1113C motion. With out a contract the company can fire a pilot immediately if he missed a mx item that the FAA catches. I seriously doubt that AMR would back a pilot in a certificate action with the FAA. AMR would view it as a chance to lower their longevity costs.

If the TA had passed you wouldn't be seeing the extra caution that AA pilots are displaying now. This is all uncharted waters. If it was my certificate on the line on a daily basis I wouldn't be ignoring any mx item. Far better to be abundantly cautious with the FAA then to be on the other side.

It was the company's choice to toss the contract and now they must live with this side effect.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 16:40:45 and read 8291 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 230):
The difference is that this is the first time a pilot group has had their contract tossed by a judge. Everyone else had negotiated contracts in place instead of the 1113C motion. With out a contract the company can fire a pilot immediately if he missed a mx item that the FAA catches. I seriously doubt that AMR would back a pilot in a certificate action with the FAA. AMR would view it as a chance to lower their longevity costs.

Precisely! Doing your job to the best of ones ability is not a job action. Anyone who disagrees with that would surely understand why this country is falling apart.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: flyfree727
Posted 2012-09-29 17:42:47 and read 8182 times.

Quoting BarryH (Reply 223):
At the end of the day management outwardly appears to be doing the right things for the benefit of the whole. With that, there's absolutely no reason for any discussions of their replacement.

Thats wonderful for you to say that. Then I guess it shifts all the blame for the operational issues back to them.. I am sure APA/ TWU and the other work groups thank for you placing the blame on the terrible "state of affairs" at AA in the laps of where it belongs, management.

I know I certainly appreciate that you see it that way!

AA ORD

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: BarryH
Posted 2012-09-29 17:47:51 and read 8167 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 227):
Yes, they are pushing the pilots' buttons. Even a cranially challenged Hippo can see that.

Or, are they just doing what needs to be done? I know quite a few senior airline execs and this "us vs. them" mentality that's being portrayed here is an illusion. Unions are a way of life in the airline industry. I’m sure quite a few senior leaders fantasize about how simple life could be without them. But that’s not going to happen and you play the hand you’re dealt. And with the constant MEC and LEC leadership turnover no one ever knows what tomorrow will bring and today's "happy" environment can turn "unhappy" on a dime.

For the good of the whole, whether at AA, another airline, or any business, hard decisions have to be made that are going to be universally unpopular and/or disagreed with. That's what's happening here. And those affected by those decisions have a right to be angry, disappointed, disillusioned, or some combination of all three. But in the end, those are transient emotions that will be overcome in time. No high six-figure executive anywhere got to that level by making decisions either emotionally or vindictively; at least not in a public company. Even more so aimed at intentionally harming their own people. This isn't about AA beating the pilots in to submission (or vice versa); it's about gut wrenching structural changes that affect every area of the business.

Hopefully both the goals and the challenges in meeting them have been well thought through so that in a few years AA looks more like DL and UA in scale and profitability. As an outside observer it appears that the raw ingredients are being put in place. Ultimately it comes down to chess vs. checkers. Management's playing a chess game that, if they win, will create a prosperous environment for all concerned and who's success (or failure) will be measured over years. The problem is with their short-term view and me-centric approach the pilots are playing checkers. But with or without the pilots blessing, and with or without a combination, the wheels are in motion and nothing will reverse them.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-29 18:00:22 and read 8130 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 230):
If it was my certificate on the line on a daily basis I wouldn't be ignoring any mx item.

But is your certificate any more on the line at AA than at another bankrupt carrier?

Quoting norcal (Reply 230):
With out a contract the company can fire a pilot immediately if he missed a mx item that the FAA catches.

As a matter of contract law, that's correct. As a matter of bankruptcy law, the picture is murkier, and it's not inconceivable that there might be situations that implicate some of the common law public policy exceptions to employment at will.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 229):
I honestly can't tell you for sure.

I appreciate your candid and thorough posts in this thread.

Let me try to be as candid and thorough with what I see as a passenger: one day last week, I sat down to book about $3,000 worth of (domestic) business travel for myself. I live in a large AA outstation and have complete freedom on who I fly. This travel included trips to WAS and ABQ, both places where I probably would have looked first or second to AA a couple of months ago. I can't book AA with the way the schedules (don't) work right now, and I wound up on a WN/F9 combination to ABQ and flying WN to BWI rather than AA to DCA (the combination of sub-optimal schedules, the Gate 35A mess, and my specific destination in D.C. being similarly accessible to BWI and DCA caused me not to pick US).

My colleagues and I book a lot of full fare J to Japan, and AA has traditionally been the first choice for most, or perhaps all, of us. We like the product, the ease of connecting at ORD (outbound), DFW (both directions) and LAX (inbound) and the relatively more reliable operation on the domestic legs versus DL Connection to DTW/ATL. Again, I just can't book AA given the lack of reliability now. That costs AA money. When I say "AA," I mean all stakeholders, all of whom lose when I pick a competitor. From my seat, those pilots that are choosing to be more careful are making a selfish, short-sighted choice. YMMV, of course.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-29 20:13:19 and read 7948 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 197):
Here's an explanation from a DALPA email, my understanding is the large RJs growth requires the 717s, though I haven't found the email specifying that yet
Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 201):
No, B-717s have to be delivered for any more jumbo RJs to come.

Thank you for correcting me - my mistake. I was under the impression that some of the growth in large RJs was permitted even before the 717s arrive.

Quoting norcal (Reply 197):
Far more restrictive than the AMR's Last Best Final Offer

Yes. AMR's LBFO does have a less restrictive scope clause than Delta's present CBA, but AMR's previous CBA had a substantially more restrictive scope clause than Delta's previous or present CBA.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 201):
For the record, I thought allowing 70 more jumbo RJs was a bad idea and the 50 seaters are going away in large numbers anyways

I agree. The preponderance of the 50-seaters were going to be gone anyway, so Delta pilots certainly didn't "give" Delta anything in that regard.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 211):
as is now court record that AA had NO plan following the employee concession of 2003, except to "kick the can" hoping the economy would quickly recover.

AMR's plan after 2003 was to harness the new, more competitive union contracts, along with several other restructurings of the business (depeaking hubs, simplifying the fleet, trimming a lot of costs and inefficiencies, etc.) in order to leap ahead of their legacy competition and return to profitability. And - while often forgotten here on A.net and elsewhere - that plan worked. It worked so well that by the 2004-2005 timeframe, AMR was broadly considered the leader among the legacy carriers in terms of its financial turnaround, its economic performance, and its competitiveness. By 2006, the stock options distributed to AA employees were trading at literally 12-13x what AMR stock was worth when the options were issued.

The problem, of course, was that the world then changed. Within just 2-3 years, AMR went from having among the lowest labor costs and most competitive union contracts among the legacy carriers to having among the highest costs and least competitive contracts, in various areas. When Delta, Northwest, United and USAirways (twice) used bankruptcy to restructure, the painful and admirable concessions AMR unions gave in 2003 were no longer sufficient in various respects. AMR was no longer competitive. This set off a chain reaction where AA's non-competitive union contracts both drove higher costs and constrained revenue, which prevent AMR from making needed investments in fleet, etc., which pressured AMR's cash and flexibility to maneuver (especially when fuel spiked), which ultimately hurt yields, and on and on. AMR in this period (2007-2011) kept "kicking the can down the road" by hoping that somehow, the right series of events would conspire to allow them to get ahead of this vicious cycle. That was obviously a bad move.

If either side made a "mistake" in that whole course of events, it wasn't AMR's unions, but AMR's management. AMR's unions stepped up to the plate in 2003 and gave what was asked of them and what AMR told them was required. Trouble is that it ended up not being enough. That's not the unions' "fault," but it did contribute to some extent to why AMR is where they are today.

It wasn't all just about management "kicking the can" down the road.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 211):
For whatever reason, childlish, silly, ligit, etc. the hatred towards current AA management will forever hinder the forward moving momentum that is required. Perception is reality. And our reality is this management team sucks.

"The hatred towards current AA management will forever hinder the forward moving momentum that is required."

Incredible statement, but I don't doubt it does represent the view of plenty of AA employees.

Nonetheless, it does beg the question: who would AA's unions not hate? For AA's unions, AA's management has been enemy #1 for decades, under the span of at least four different CEOs. They hated Crandall, they hated Carty, they hated Arpey, they hate Horton. (And yes, I agree with other posters that given some amount of time, they would come to hate Parker as well.) The various inequities and injustices from CEO to CEO have continued to fester unabated no matter what AA management ever did, right or wrong.

The unions continually draw conclusions about the inherently flawed way that AMR's management culture drives the organization, and the way it treats people. (And, by the way, I think the unions have a point there and are entirely right to draw those conclusions). I think at some point one also must ask, though, if perhaps this hatred is at least in part also due to the unions themselves, and the us-versus-them attitude that they, too, foster.

[Edited 2012-09-29 20:21:45]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 20:21:41 and read 7933 times.

Quoting BarryH (Reply 233):
Or, are they just doing what needs to be done? I know quite a few senior airline execs and this "us vs. them" mentality that's being portrayed here is an illusion.

While I don't associate with airline executives, I have had friends that are or were senior executives of major corporations. VP's up to and including a CEO. We have discussed our situation over the years, and they have told me how disgusting are management teams have been over the last several years. And in fairness, they haven't always been thrilled with how the pilots have handled things. I agreed with that as well.

They are going far beyond what they need to. They are truly being vindictive by going as far as they are. They are punishing the pilots for voting no. If not, why would they offer gate gate agents a 5.5% 401k match and give nothing to the pilots. I am a capitalist. I understand very well how business works. Trust me, these guys are going for the jugular.

Quoting BarryH (Reply 233):
For the good of the whole, whether at AA, another airline, or any business, hard decisions have to be made that are going to be universally unpopular and/or disagreed with. That's what's happening here.

I fully understand what it means to have responsibility and the need to make unpopular decisions. It goes beyond that.

Quoting BarryH (Reply 233):
But in the end, those are transient emotions that will be overcome in time. No high six-figure executive anywhere got to that level by making decisions either emotionally or vindictively;

Naive at best.

I believe in capitalism with all my heart. I also believe in integrity and morals and ethical values. Our management team demonstrates none of those characteristics. Where are they sacrificing? In the military, the leader always leads the charge. These guys hide behind rocks and yell charge. They have never served anyone but themselves.

Please don't talk to pilots like we are uniformed numnuts who have absolutely no business sense. I run a financial business that is quite profitable, and I flew with an FO not too long ago who was on the board of directors of a regional bank. I fully understand the need to make tough decisions and the need to control costs and the need to generate a return for the shareholders. These folks are using the bankruptcy laws not only to become a leaner more competitive company, but to rape the employees. They stand to make millions on the other side, not off the their hard work and expertise, but off the backs of others.

I was a yes voter, and even though I am a pilot, I truly believe the problem lies with both sides. Even as an AA pilot, I can have an open mind and see there are two sides. But to portray the situation as one sided as you appear to come across, is just naive and unrealistic.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 20:33:35 and read 7908 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 234):
Let me try to be as candid and thorough with what I see as a passenger:

I appreciate your candor as well. And trust me, I GET it. I am truly sorry this mess is causing you and others grief. I appreciate each and every one of my passengers and always give them 100%. To do less, would be criminal.

The sad thing here, is that if the top brass of AA and the APA would just show some leadership and compromise this could all be fixed in short order. By that I mean a new contract, recalling pilots to end the shortfall, etc. We could put all our energy into moving this airline forward.

One other comment on the pilots being extra careful. I have posted this statement on another thread.

Our VP of Flight Operations has a statement out to the pilots. It says, and I quote "Fly aggressively safe". That statement comes from a senior member of AA management. Now, how would you interpret that? If I don't follow his order, then am I not insubordinate. One thing I learned about hierarchy as an officer in the military and a Captain in the airline environment, is that to not follow rules and directives from superiors, can get you fired. Would you be willing to defend me pro bono? I am not trying to be facetious here. It's a legitimate question.

[Edited 2012-09-29 20:36:58]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-09-29 20:44:07 and read 7884 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 237):
I am truly sorry this mess is causing you and others grief. I appreciate each and every one of my passengers and always give them 100%. To do less, would be criminal.

I've been pretty critical of the rebellious AA pilots on this forum, but in my opinion (and I'm sure many others) you prove that you are a professional aviator that we all think of when we think of an airline pilot, and I think (hope) most of us believe that the few that are rebelling (because I think it's safe to say that many of them are) are in the minority, and the average AA pilot is just as professional as an UA, DL, WN, AS, HA, F9, etc pilot etc

I and others appreciate the defense of your company with a proud history and I wish you the best of luck in the future. I truly think you are experiencing what the other mainline pilots have experienced in the last few years, it is hard, but hopefully in the next few years you'll belong to a company making a healthy profit every quarter.

As much as I am a DL fan, and as much as I'd love to see DL with a MIA hub, I hope AA recovers and KEEPS their structure in-tact... including MIA   

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-29 21:08:25 and read 7842 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 238):
I've been pretty critical of the rebellious AA pilots on this forum, but in my opinion (and I'm sure many others) you prove that you are a professional aviator that we all think of when we think of an airline pilot, and I think (hope) most of us believe that the few that are rebelling (because I think it's safe to say that many of them are) are in the minority, and the average AA pilot is just as professional as an UA, DL, WN, AS, HA, F9, etc pilot etc

I and others appreciate the defense of your company with a proud history and I wish you the best of luck in the future. I truly think you are experiencing what the other mainline pilots have experienced in the last few years, it is hard, but hopefully in the next few years you'll belong to a company making a healthy profit every quarter.

As much as I am a DL fan, and as much as I'd love to see DL with a MIA hub, I hope AA recovers and KEEPS their structure in-tact... including MIA  

Thank you. I had 4 airline offers and chose AA. I still think I made the right decision and I hope time continues to validate that decision.

I will say, that I fly with a great group of true professionals and I would trust my life to them in any operating environment, any time.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: SHUPirate1
Posted 2012-09-29 22:08:46 and read 7702 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 236):
They are going far beyond what they need to. They are truly being vindictive by going as far as they are. They are punishing the pilots for voting no. If not, why would they offer gate gate agents a 5.5% 401k match and give nothing to the pilots. I am a capitalist. I understand very well how business works. Trust me, these guys are going for the jugular.

Here's my question, and this probably cuts to the heart of the matter...why does AMR Corp. (and, for that matter, nearly every other unionized company in the country) have to have multiple bargaining units. To me, that's a large portion of the problem.

Just at AA, you have the APA (pilots), the TWU's seven different bargaining units (dispatchers, fleet service, stores, ground school instructors, simulator technicians, mechanics, and technical specialists), and the APFA (flight attendants). What you essentially have, in your scenario, is nine different bargaining units bargaining with the company separately for the same slice of the pie, and since you guys were the last ones to an agreement, you guys get the short end of the straw. Unfortunately, what that means is the nine of you can't work together to say to the company "look, what can we do to make the pie bigger", and that 401(k) match would be identical (with respect to wages) across the entire company, the benefits would be identical (and proportionate) across the entire company, and the entire company would be covered under one contract, and you (the Aluminum Tube Aircraft Workers of America) can work together to make the company better, rather than the status quo, which doesn't work for any heavily-unionized airline in the country except for Southwest (and probably doesn't work for very many heavily-unionized-but-fragmented companies of any type on this planet).

Just the thinking of this one outside-the-Metroplex person...

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: B377
Posted 2012-09-29 23:18:40 and read 7616 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 236):
They are going far beyond what they need to. They are truly being vindictive by going as far as they are. They are punishing the pilots for voting no. If not, why would they offer gate gate agents a 5.5% 401k match and give nothing to the pilots. I am a capitalist. I understand very well how business works. Trust me, these guys are going for the jugular.

Yet the Pilots LBFO was much better than the ones given to the AFPA and TWU. And your coworker pilots voted it down. The poor gate agents and management, didn't even get a chance to vote. They just accepted what was necessary to save the company.

A Company should be governed by their stockholders through the Board of Directors. They select the senior management and support its efforts to operate a successful company. All the pilots, flight attendants, mechanics and all other employees have the responsibility to support these senior officers efforts, regardless of what direction that they are taking the company.

If they have a gripe or disagreement they should discuss it in private. When they are unsuccessful in resolving the disagreement, they should accept it and move forward.

AA is doing just that. They have taken all work groups into bankruptcy. All of the employees, except for the pilots, have accepted, while reluctantly, what AA feels necessary to become a viable company.

AA told the APA and the pilots exactly what would happen if they voted down the LBFO. Whether it is far worse than necessary is mute. The court agreed with AA and AA has implemented what they said they would.

The pilots and the APA are appealing the courts ruling, and rightly they should. If they win the appeal, great. If they lose the appeal, not so great.

However the outcome, both now and after the courts rulings, in my opinion, the APA and should show itself to be a the professional organization they claim that they are. That means flying a safe, on time airline, ensuring AA customers are happy and respecting the decisions of senior management and the courts.

The recent disruptions coupled with several APA press releases have lead me to believe that they are indeed in a "dreamworld" and no longer showing the professionalism they claim to have.



[Edited 2012-09-29 23:48:20]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: silentbob
Posted 2012-09-29 23:42:36 and read 7558 times.

Quoting B377 (Reply 241):
A Company should be governed by their stockholders through the Board of Directors.

Most are, that's why our economy is in the state it's in. Making decisions with long term impact, while being focused on the stock prices over the short term. It's also why executive pay has risen exponentially in relation to that of the average worker in recent years as well.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 03:20:32 and read 7440 times.

Quoting B377 (Reply 241):
Yet the Pilots LBFO was much better than the ones given to the AFPA and TWU. And your coworker pilots voted it down. The poor gate agents and management, didn't even get a chance to vote. They just accepted what was necessary to save the company.

A Company should be governed by their stockholders through the Board of Directors. They select the senior management and support its efforts to operate a successful company. All the pilots, flight attendants, mechanics and all other employees have the responsibility to support these senior officers efforts, regardless of what direction that they are taking the company.

If they have a gripe or disagreement they should discuss it in private. When they are unsuccessful in resolving the disagreement, they should accept it and move forward.

AA is doing just that. They have taken all work groups into bankruptcy. All of the employees, except for the pilots, have accepted, while reluctantly, what AA feels necessary to become a viable company.

AA told the APA and the pilots exactly what would happen if they voted down the LBFO. Whether it is far worse than necessary is mute. The court agreed with AA and AA has implemented what they said they would.

The pilots and the APA are appealing the courts ruling, and rightly they should. If they win the appeal, great. If they lose the appeal, not so great.

However the outcome, both now and after the courts rulings, in my opinion, the APA and should show itself to be a the professional organization they claim that they are. That means flying a safe, on time airline, ensuring AA customers are happy and respecting the decisions of senior management and the courts.

The recent disruptions coupled with several APA press releases have lead me to believe that they are indeed in a "dreamworld" and no longer showing the professionalism they claim to have.

I will post this lesson of "reality" on the pilots bulletin board in operations. We had NO idea how this was supposed to work. Thanks for the information.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-30 04:04:59 and read 7352 times.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 215):
A change in AMR management is absolutely needed, but in order to restore the confidence of investors, it must be matched by a change in APA management...

Why, management are charged with running the company and taking care of the investors portfolio, they have been following the investors guidance. Investors only need to have confidence in the management staff that they put to run their business, workers are employees who are expected to do the jobs assigned to them, and in the airline industry, a vast number of jobs are professional trades so ability to perform one jobs is down to a science.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 240):
why does AMR Corp. (and, for that matter, nearly every other unionized company in the country) have to have multiple bargaining units. To me, that's a large portion of the problem.

How would janitors implement a scope system, how about counter staff only getting paid when all pax booked for a flight show up at the airport, mechanics only getting paid when the a/c takes off, if it has a mechanical it has to be repaired no pay, etc. etc. etc.
If one were to look at flight crew contracts some items listed there seem pretty silly, you are obligated to report to work at 06:00am but you do not get paid until your flight pushes at 08:00am, imagine how the clock-in system for line staff would work in that scenario, such conditions may well have been implemented when concessions were made.

Specialized jobs do require special terms of work conditions, and based on the number of positions in an airline, finding one union body to cater to all the various specialities will be hard, additionally there is the ruling philosophy of divide and conquer, the more trade bodies you have to deal with the less cohesive your work force, allows more control and playing the needs of one group off against the other. Union power based on number of members has been declining in the USA for decades, their last stronghold is in specialized fields and some industries, not the general working population at large.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 04:35:07 and read 7340 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 244):
Why, management are charged with running the company and taking care of the investors portfolio,

They have done a horrific job of taking care of their investors by anyones measurement. They have underperformed their peers at the other airlines by a significant margin. And please don't lay blame elsewhere. AA management has failed and like any employee who has failed, they need to be let go and replaced. The board of directors at AA have been asleep at the wheel for years.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-30 05:35:30 and read 7288 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 237):
I appreciate each and every one of my passengers and always give them 100%. To do less, would be criminal.

To me, writing up a coffeepot and taking a 2 hour delay to fix it is not giving 100 percent to passengers. I realize that we do not - and probably will not - see eye to eye on this.

I should add that it saddens me to have to book away from AA. I have had some of my best experiences on board an aircraft on AA and, unlike every other legacy, none of my worst. I know numerous AA employees and retirees in quite a few workgroups, and all seem to be decent, hardworking people. I'd like to fly AA as much as possible. Right now, I that's not at all.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 237):
Would you be willing to defend me pro bono? I am not trying to be facetious here. It's a legitimate question.

That statement is so vague that no employee should be deemed insubordinate for "disregarding" it. I don't know what it means to disregard that statement. Perhaps the lack of specific instruction is another one of the many problems AA management is having.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 05:45:41 and read 7256 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 246):
To me, writing up a coffeepot and taking a 2 hour delay to fix it is not giving 100 percent to passengers. I realize that we do not - and probably will not - see eye to eye on this.

I cannot imagine anyone taking a 2 hour delay to fix a coffee pot. I just don't believe it. First and foremost, most coffee pots do not break. They are either on board or not. A coffee maker is another story. And even if there is a problem with the wiring issue of a coffee maker or hot plate, it could simply be deactivated and placarded inoperative. If I were to write up a problem such as that and it took maintenance more that a very short time to take care of the situation, I would be very suspect. It should result in only a very minor delay if a delay at all. There are more than one on each aircraft.
I have not seen one single Mickey Mouse write up on a single aircraft in the last month.
I wish I could post pages from aircraft logbooks on here so that you folks can see exactly what is being written up. Obviously, I can't as that is proprietary information that I am not privy to divulge.

[Edited 2012-09-30 05:47:55]

[Edited 2012-09-30 06:01:15]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-30 05:53:11 and read 7221 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 245):
They have done a horrific job of taking care of their investors by anyones measurement.

I quite agree, my response to the poster was that restoring confidence of the investors has nothing to do with replacing union leadership, I don't see a quid pro quo or face saving issue, management initiates, workers respond.
Yes it does take two hands to clap but the public at large does not see a partnership where jobs and management are concerned.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 05:55:59 and read 7234 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 246):
That statement is so vague that no employee should be deemed insubordinate for "disregarding" it. I don't know what it means to disregard that statement. Perhaps the lack of specific instruction is another one of the many problems AA management is having

I get that. My point is trying to point out the humor / double standard in all this. If the union were to tell the pilots to fly aggressively safe, it would be a job action. If senior management tell us to "Fly aggressively safe", that is considered a vague statement.

And as far as specific instructions, we have procedures on top of procedures on top of procedures in manual after manual which we follow. And we must follow all to the letter, to include maintenance procedures. In fact, as a Captain, I must follow all procedures to the letter, unless I declare an emergency. Then and only then, can I deviate from any and all rules, regulations and procedures as necessary to deal with the situation at hand. And, I am fully accountable for that.

This is not a business that allows for a lot of wiggle room.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: oneskyjet
Posted 2012-09-30 06:07:40 and read 7199 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 238):
Our VP of Flight Operations has a statement out to the pilots. It says, and I quote "Fly aggressively safe". That statement comes from a senior member of AA management. Now, how would you interpret that? If I don't follow his order, then am I not insubordinate. One thing I learned about hierarchy as an officer in the military and a Captain in the airline environment, is that to not follow rules and directives from superiors, can get you fired. Would you be willing to defend me pro bono? I am not trying to be facetious here. It's a legitimate question.

Aggressively safe does not equal stupidly safe.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 06:14:49 and read 7208 times.

Quoting Reply 250):
Aggressively safe does not equal stupidly safe.

Actually, DeltaMD90 selected that quote of mine. And I couldn't agree more with your statement in general. However, are you privy to exactly what is going on, or are you just armchair quarterbacking from the outside. You either have not been reading any of my postings, or you are just choosing to disregard them because you don't believe anything I have been saying. That is certainly your privilege and if that is the case, there is not much I can say.

The AA company spokesman (and spokesmen are nothing but corporate spinners and always have been) says something, and people believe it without any supporting documentation. AA claimed there was a sickout. They provided no statistics. APA did, and the Dallas Morning news printed it. AA hasn't been saying that anymore.

And by definition, stupidly safe would not be safe.

[Edited 2012-09-30 06:18:26]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: pu
Posted 2012-09-30 06:39:02 and read 7180 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 244):

and taking care of the investors portfolio

Who are the investors of AMR at this point and who put them there? Seems to me mgmt failed the old owners, fired them, and replaced them with new owners chosen by mgmt (since mgmt acquired the debt from the creditors and therefore indirectly chose the creditors cmte)

Quoting par13del (Reply 248):

restoring confidence of the investors

The investors / onwers of the company had their control wrestled from them by management that persuaded a disloyal BOD to declare bankruptcy.
.
Stockholders, aka the owners of the company?...Their interests have been the most disserviced of all the stakeowners - management eliminated it. So this "serving the needs of the investors" freshman business class economics mantra could use some adjustment.
.
A case could be made that AMR took on all that huge debt, new plane orders etc... precisely to fleece the stockholders of any residual claim and put the new AA firmly in the hands of the owners picked by management....to include mostly creditors and management itself.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 243):

I will post this lesson of "reality" on the pilots bulletin board in operations. We had NO idea how this was supposed to work. Thanks for the information.
.
The number of times you see "What a business/economics textbook says on page 32" about running a company is indeed humorous - thanks for adding comic relief.

Pu

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-30 06:44:40 and read 7177 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 251):
The AA company spokesman (and spokesmen are nothing but corporate spinners and always have been) says something, and people believe it without any supporting documentation.
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 251):
AA claimed there was a sickout. They provided no statistics. APA did, and the Dallas Morning news printed it. AA hasn't been saying that anymore.

The earliest public statement from AA that I could find merely mentioned sick calls as one of "a number of factors" affecting the delays, along with maintenance issues.

The meaning of the sick call statistics published by the Dallas Morning News were not entirely clear, because - unless I missed later, additional data - they showed the number of pilots out on the 18th of every month for the last year. That doesn't really tell us much about the immediate trend in the post-abrogation period, which is really the period in question. Nonetheless, I take the APA entirely at their word when they say that a "sickout" en masse is not happening. I take their word over the company's implications on that one.

Nonetheless, the additional statistics later published by the Dallas Morning News since then paint a pretty clear picture, and it isn't one the APA likes. The statistics show a dramatic, and immediate, drop in on-time performance within 24 hours of the new AA terms being released out. On September 12, AA ran a 77.9% on-time operation, and one day later, after the terms were announced, AA was at 46.5%. AA later stated - and I have no idea if they are lying or not - that the level of maintenance calls that led to mechanics finding no actual issue has nearly doubled in the last few weeks.

So obviously AA pilots are changing their behavior en masse, and right after the new terms. The only real question now is why - and the company and the unions obviously have different theories. The APA statements about an old fleet, tight schedule and utilization and planning seem a little implausible unless the APA is claiming that all of those problems magically appeared on September 13, 2012. The less motivated maintenance workforce and the pilots' "uncertainty" with no CBA protection, seems more plausible (at least to me). Maybe APA should stick to those explanations.

Based on the latest blog post from Terry Maxon at the Dallas Morning News blog, it seems he is beginning to find all of the various back-and-forth accusations, denials and alternative explanations a bit farcical and comical as well.

[Edited 2012-09-30 06:45:28]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 06:48:07 and read 7165 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 253):
Based on the latest blog post from Terry Maxon at the Dallas Morning News blog, it seems he is beginning to find all of the various back-and-forth accusations, denials and alternative explanations a bit farcical and comical as well.

If all this wasn't so serious, I would find it quite comical as well. But then again, I have a very twisted sense of humor.  

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-09-30 07:29:59 and read 7061 times.

Quoting B377 (Reply 241):
Yet the Pilots LBFO was much better than the ones given to the AFPA and TWU. And your coworker pilots voted it down. The poor gate agents and management, didn't even get a chance to vote. They just accepted what was necessary to save the company.

The reality of their situation is different. They are much easier to replace and the weak economy leaves them not many if any other options.

Quoting B377 (Reply 241):
All the pilots, flight attendants, mechanics and all other employees have the responsibility to support these senior officers efforts, regardless of what direction that they are taking the company.

I think you are missing the basic fact that the pilots just do not trust management, and they feel management has done little to earn that trust, and they feel management has not been negotiating in good faith.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: norcal
Posted 2012-09-30 08:11:50 and read 6968 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 234):
But is your certificate any more on the line at AA than at another bankrupt carrier?

Yes because other carriers had contracts in bankruptcy. This is the first time a 1113C motion has been granted against a pilot group. In every other case the concessionary TA passed, which meant that a contract was in place that protected the pilots.

In the AMR bankruptcy case the TA DIDN'T pass and the judge tossed the contract by granting the 1113C motion. Essentially 50 years of collective bargaining was thrown out the window with one decision. There is no contract anymore.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 234):
As a matter of contract law, that's correct. As a matter of bankruptcy law, the picture is murkier, and it's not inconceivable that there might be situations that implicate some of the common law public policy exceptions to employment at will.

The fact that it appears murky to you should be an indication of why the pilots are being so cautious. If you thought it was a possibility you could lose your driver's license forever for having a broken tail light, wouldn't you make sure you get it fixed before driving?

That's essentially what is going on here. These guys have no confidence that the company would go to bat for them in the event of a broken tail light incident. The FAA can levy some ridiculous fines for even minor things like forgetting to sign a page in the aircraft maintenance log. ExpressJet recently got fined over $8,000 for each flight an aircraft did with out a signed maintenance log page ($400,000 for 49 flights). The work was done, it just wasn't signed off but the FAA still levied the fine.

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...rier-atlantic-southeast/70000709/1

If you were a 30 year AA Captain tipping the pay scale and you cost a company like AMR $8,000 because you didn't verify all the paperwork was in order they wouldn't hesitate to fire you. AMR hates its employees and they'd view getting rid of a 30 year Captain as a major cost saver. With out a contract they could easily do it since there is no more protection.

If you go to apply to a different company you'd have to check the yes box for, "Have you ever had any FAA violations," at which point they'd toss your resume in the trash. The uncertainty of what could happen is too much for these guys since its their livelihoods on the line. This was one of the consequences the company knew or at least should have known about when they pursued the 1113C

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-30 08:32:28 and read 6937 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 256):
The fact that it appears murky to you should be an indication of why the pilots are being so cautious. If you thought it was a possibility you could lose your driver's license forever for having a broken tail light, wouldn't you make sure you get it fixed before driving?

That's essentially what is going on here. These guys have no confidence that the company would go to bat for them in the event of a broken tail light incident. The FAA can levy some ridiculous fines for even minor things like forgetting to sign a page in the aircraft maintenance log. ExpressJet recently got fined over $8,000 for each flight an aircraft did with out a signed maintenance log page ($400,000 for 49 flights). The work was done, it just wasn't signed off but the FAA still levied the fine.

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...rier-atlantic-southeast/70000709/1

If you were a 30 year AA Captain tipping the pay scale and you cost a company like AMR $8,000 because you didn't verify all the paperwork was in order they wouldn't hesitate to fire you. AMR hates its employees and they'd view getting rid of a 30 year Captain as a major cost saver. With out a contract they could easily do it since there is no more protection.

If you go to apply to a different company you'd have to check the yes box for, "Have you ever had any FAA violations," at which point they'd toss your resume in the trash. The uncertainty of what could happen is too much for these guys since its their livelihoods on the line. This was one of the consequences the company knew or at least should have known about when they pursued the 1113C

Powerful stuff. Good points. I guess I already know the answer, but why on earth doesn't the APA say essentially that (perhaps minus the "AMR hates its employees" statement)? That would get the point across.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: mcg
Posted 2012-09-30 08:55:37 and read 6875 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 256):
The fact that it appears murky to you should be an indication of why the pilots are being so cautious.

How do you explain a 40+ minute taxi from runway to gate at DFW? perhaps not sure about speed limit?

Sorry, I don't mean to sound overly negative, but I just have a hard time feeling sorry for a bunch of guys who earn (per a post somewhere on a.net) $180K. I understand that the new contract terms are no fun and you'd all really prefer the old contract, but life doesn't always work that way. And I think it's shameful to drag your customers into this dispute.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: mcg
Posted 2012-09-30 08:59:15 and read 6860 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 220):
Quoting mcg (Reply 219):
Quoting mcg (Reply 219):
Actually, maybe not. Any employer/labor group relationship defined by 'cloud of hate and disdain' is not sustainable. Maybe it's better to just face the music and move on. It'd be painful for everyone in the short run, but I think the air transport system would adapt pretty quickly and the pilots could go find better jobs.

Again, a wee bit short sighted, don't you think. I think it much more adult to solve a problem than to run away a coward.
Men solve problems, cowards run away.  

If we disagree on that, I don't know what to say.

Does this sound like a viable business?:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/op...tlantic-trip-turns-kafkaesque.html

I'm just not sure the problems at AA are fixable to anyone's satisfaction.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: PITingres
Posted 2012-09-30 09:12:19 and read 6812 times.

Quoting norcal (Reply 256):
AMR hates its employees and they'd view getting rid of a 30 year Captain as a major cost saver.

I think you made some very good points, except for this one. Who is this "AMR" who hates their employees? I'm being serious here; you can work with real people to try to change things, but you can't work with a personified abstract. "AMR" is an abstract; the pilots make up a much larger fraction of "AMR" than management does, I'm betting. If a significant fraction of pilots and other employees are basing their actions on "AMR hates us", I seriously doubt that this is going to go anywhere other than Chapter 7. Maybe those employees should just quit now and get it over with?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-09-30 09:25:58 and read 6798 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 218):
Thanks. Sometimes, I just think about aborting my posts and just going around. But I have had several private messages asking me to continue posting.

Well, here is a public message to you: Please stick around and keep posting!  
Quoting Revelation (Reply 204):

12:09 departure, so about 1.5 hrs late, twice the seven day average.

Yep, all because of an air conditioning vent not working in one of the galleys of our not-at-all-ancient AA 772 that had been sitting at the gate for at least 4 hours prior to boarding us pax.

I do want to say that our flight attendants were superb on this flight, both during the delay and also providing inflight service (though full disclosure, I was in F and this was AA's 3 class transcon service). In fact one of the flight attendants who was taking care of us in the cabin came up to each of us shortly before landing and personally thanked each of us for flying with AA today.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 247):
A coffee maker is another story. And even if there is a problem with the wiring issue of a coffee maker or hot plate, it could simply be deactivated and placarded inoperative.

That's what our Captain said on AA 277 yesterday (Saturday) that they eventually ended up doing. Why this couldn't have been done in the 4 hours that the plane was sitting at the gate before they loaded us pax aboard for a 2 hour "sitting on the plane at the gate" episode, is beyond me.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 246):
To me, writing up a coffeepot and taking a 2 hour delay to fix it is not giving 100 percent to passengers.

Or, in my case, an air conditioning vent in one of the galleys.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: B377
Posted 2012-09-30 09:55:08 and read 6727 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 243):
I will post this lesson of "reality" on the pilots bulletin board in operations. We had NO idea how this was supposed to work. Thanks for the information.

Good start. Now encourage your fellow pilots to follow it.

Then after the Courts deny all appeals, after AA comes out of bankruptcy without a contract with the APA, you can once again petition the NRLB to declare an impasse on any new contract. When that happens, and history proves it get them concur is very difficult, you will be free to strike.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 10:02:38 and read 6730 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 261):
That's what our Captain said on AA 277 yesterday (Saturday) that they eventually ended up doing. Why this couldn't have been done in the 4 hours that the plane was sitting at the gate before they loaded us pax aboard for a 2 hour "sitting on the plane at the gate" episode, is beyond me.

It's completely beyond me as well. It makes no sense. I have had problems where I couldn't figure out why things took so long. I can refuse and aircraft I feel is unsafe, but I can't take an aircraft that does not a write up signed off. (assuming it is not flight crew placardable). This doesn't sound like the Captains doing.

I saw where a 777 had an issue last night. Apparently something was found by the FO on the walk around. That is done between 45-60 before departure on average. The aircraft was taken out of service for a ferry flight to Alliance for repairs. That certainly was not a pilot caused problem. It was found in proper time and there was no way the aircraft would have been taken out of service had it not been deemed a necessity by maintenance. So, there is so much more here than meets the eye.

I just spoke with another FO who found the same thing on two separate aircraft in a row. He told the Captain who wrote it up both times. He said great, we wrote up the same thing two flights in a row, and someone will ask us questions. I know this guy, he is not the least bit a ":trouble maker". I asked him what it was. I said if the FAA was there would you have written it up. He said absolutely. I said you did the right thing. He said he knows that, but I just doesn't need to be hassled. So, I wish I could put my finger on what the heck is going on, but I can't.

Quoting mcg (Reply 258):
How do you explain a 40+ minute taxi from runway to gate at DFW? perhaps not sure about speed limit?

The other day, I had to wait 6 minutes on the taxiway, as ground control told me to hold until another airline's aircraft finished it's push so I could taxi into the alley way. I ended up arriving late. I made a PA to keep the passengers informed as to exactly what was happening. As some jerk deplaned he told me I was an idiot and that I lied just to have an excuse to arrive late. I could have explained it's a little difficult to just stop on an active taxi way for no good reason, but decided to just smile and say have a nice day.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 10:08:30 and read 6714 times.

Quoting B377 (Reply 262):
Good start. Now encourage your fellow pilots to follow it.

Once again, excellent advice. I am on top of it. I just don't know what i/ we would do with out all the excellent advice provided.

It's truly amazing most of us pilots are able to get out of bed and make it to the airport on time. Maybe you could provide a wake up call for us as well.

I will need one for 0430 tomorrow morning!

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-09-30 10:26:25 and read 6665 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 263):

It's completely beyond me as well. It makes no sense. I have had problems where I couldn't figure out why things took so long. I can refuse and aircraft I feel is unsafe, but I can't take an aircraft that does not a write up signed off. (assuming it is not flight crew placardable). This doesn't sound like the Captains doing.

I don't know if this is just an AA thing or all the airlines do it this way, but if you're going to have an aircraft sitting around for a few hours, why not have it checked out during that time, instead of waiting until all the pax have been loaded on the plane and making us sit on the plane at the gate for 2 hours? These kind of delays do not engender a good image in the mind of the pax and in the end, it's all about customer service as most pax (well, OK, not we who live in MIA) do have other options that are as good as AA in terms of price and ability to get to their destinations nonstop or with 1 connection - and those other airlines these days have a much better on-time record.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 263):

The other day, I had to wait 6 minutes on the taxiway, as ground control told me to hold until another airline's aircraft finished it's push so I could taxi into the alley way. I ended up arriving late. I made a PA to keep the passengers informed as to exactly what was happening. As some jerk deplaned he told me I was an idiot and that I lied just to have an excuse to arrive late. I could have explained it's a little difficult to just stop on an active taxi way for no good reason, but decided to just smile and say have a nice day.

First, I'm sorry that some passenger told you that you were an idiot. He has no idea what was going on and he was totally out of line.

Second... I noticed something else unusual on my AA 277 MIA-LAX yesterday. We left from gate D21 (north side of the airport, usual departure runway is 8R which is on the north side of the airport as well), but for this flight, we went all the way round to the south side of the airport and used runway 9. As we made the turn to head away from 8R, I noticed only 2 other flights queued for takeoff on 8R. Did I confront the Captain at the end of the flight? Of course not, I have no idea why we used runway 9. HOWEVER, with the 2 hours of sitting on the plane for the air conditioning vent incident to then follow that up with a rather out of the ordinary departure runway to add another 10 minutes to the delay does seem a bit odd.

[Edited 2012-09-30 10:31:58]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 10:37:23 and read 6660 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 265):
I don't know if this is just an AA thing or all the airlines do it this way, but if you're going to have an aircraft sitting around for a few hours, why not have it checked out during that time,

That is an outstanding question. I have been asking myself that same question for the last several years. Actually though, I know the answer. They are so short personnel they can't accomplish that. Why do you think AA had all those fines. I can assure you, it wasn't the pilots. It certainly wasn't the mechanics. We have one hell of a group of mechanics at AA. When a certain VP took over, I supported his actions to streamline maintenance and to make the process more effecient. He cut through all the fat. The problem, was he did not stop there. He cut through muscle and eventually into the bone marrow. We did not have the spare parts and aircraft were no longer checked on many overnights. Our mechanics would have loved to have been able to do their jobs. It is not uncommon to have to have seat cushions replaced due to spills, etc. I have been in DFW a number of times where they didn't even have spare seat cushions or covers and we had to block off a seat to a fare paying revenue passenger. Or if they did, we had to wait for them to be sent over from the hangar. These are routine items frequently needed that should be stored on the ramp This in not uncommon. It frustrates the hell out of us, but no one will listen to our debriefs. They are the experts and we are just the hired help. I have spoken directly to the chief pilots to point out some glaring details. They agree, but only shrug. They aren't listened to either.

Sorry, that was a long bloviating response to a simple question.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 10:48:34 and read 6635 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 265):
Second... I noticed something else unusual on my AA 277 MIA-LAX yesterday. We left from gate D21 (north side of the airport, usual departure runway is 8R which is on the north side of the airport as well), but for this flight, we went all the way round to the south side of the airport and used runway 9. As we made the turn to head away from 8R, I noticed only 2 other flights queued for takeoff on 8R. Did I confront the Captain at the end of the flight? Of course not, I have no idea why we used runway 9. HOWEVER, with the 2 hours of sitting on the plane for the air conditioning vent incident to then follow that up with a rather out of the ordinary departure runway to add another 10 minutes to the delay does seem a bit odd.

Again, I am truly sorry your flight did not go as planned. This whole AA thing for whatever reason makes me sick to my stomach. And I have a strong stomach.

Obviously, not being there I have no idea as to the specifics. When taxing out to the 8/12 departure area, I always brief my FO on the departure plan and procedure for both the 8 and 12 runways ahead of time. At least according to my experience, they tend to plan you on a east departure and then at the last minute, change it to 12 or vice versa. I don't get to MIA often, but that is my experience anyway. At the last second you have to change the "box" (FMC) and in some cases flap settings and speeds. That takes a few minutes, as it has to be loaded and verbaly checked and verified by both crew members. And also, with a change in flap settings, a portion of the TakeOff check has to be redone. I know the northside versus the southside is a little bit different, but due to inbound traffic, they may have wanted your flight on a right downwind departure versus a left downwind for flow. Again, I wasn't there, but those are normally the reasons why. While I will certainly request a certain runway due to weight and balance and performance isssues at times, 99% of the time we go where they send us. My guess, is that after a 2.5 hour delay, the crew just wanted to get the heck out of there and to their layover hotel as well.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-30 11:00:15 and read 6594 times.

Quoting pu (Reply 252):
(since mgmt acquired the debt from the creditors and therefore indirectly chose the creditors cmte)

Ahh no, management did not acquire the company debt, they are put in charge of managing the debt.

Quoting pu (Reply 252):
The investors / onwers of the company had their control wrestled from them by management that persuaded a disloyal BOD to declare bankruptcy.

Management persuaded the BOD that the only way to maintain their investment was to wipe out the bulk of it in chpt.11?
If that is true one has to wonder why folks are so against the pilots when they say that AA management sucks and cannot be trusted, if they conned the BOD imagine what they would / have done to the minions below them?

Quoting pu (Reply 252):
Stockholders, aka the owners of the company?...Their interests have been the most disserviced of all the stakeowners - management eliminated it. So this "serving the needs of the investors" freshman business class economics mantra could use some adjustment.

Management filed chpt.11 after the BOD approved it, if it was not approved the entire team would now be in jail. A chpt.11 fling is not a simply thing that management can just up and do when they feel it is in their best interest.
A number of the prior investors are still in the game, they may have lost some money but the gamble they are taking is that X lost today via chpt.11 will equal X+Y in profit later after restructuring.
In any event, management is still working for the investors, whether past or present, the only difference is that there is now a third party - judge - who reviews most of the decisions of the BOD before their staff (management) can implement.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-09-30 11:30:42 and read 6543 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 265):
OWEVER, with the 2 hours of sitting on the plane for the air conditioning vent incident to then follow that up with a rather out of the ordinary departure runway to add another 10 minutes to the delay does seem a bit odd.

Well, on the good news side of the equation, it seems your crew made up for 40 minutes of the delay while airborne!   

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 11:33:00 and read 6564 times.

Quoting mcg (Reply 258):
I just have a hard time feeling sorry for a bunch of guys who earn (per a post somewhere on a.net) $180K.

Actually, I have been earning more than that. But I am quite senior. The further you go down the list, the less you make obviously. And FO's certainly don't make that much. But of course, they are just a bunch of gear jerkers right?

May I ask how much you make? Oops, I apologize, that was tacky. How much you make is none of my business.

[Edited 2012-09-30 11:40:28]

[Edited 2012-09-30 11:53:22]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: mcg
Posted 2012-09-30 12:53:55 and read 6409 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 263):
Quoting mcg (Reply 258):
How do you explain a 40+ minute taxi from runway to gate at DFW? perhaps not sure about speed limit?

The other day, I had to wait 6 minutes on the taxiway, as ground control told me to hold until another airline's aircraft finished it's push so I could taxi into the alley way. I ended up arriving late. I made a PA to keep the passengers informed as to exactly what was happening. As some jerk deplaned he told me I was an idiot and that I lied just to have an excuse to arrive late. I could have explained it's a little difficult to just stop on an active taxi way for no good reason, but decided to just smile and say have a nice day.

Seems like you handled the delay well and I apologize on behalf of the passenger. The pilots on the flight in question made no PA and simply taxied very slow.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-09-30 13:01:27 and read 6418 times.

Yesterday, I called the AAdvantage Gold Desk to inquire about a flight that I have next month, #1689 BOS-ORD. It seems to cancel a lot, often a day ahead. I was trying to see if the flight is scheduled to go on 10/14.

The agent wasn't able to say that it was going that day and suggested I check every two or three days for updates.

I mentioned in passing that I was having dinner with a 737 Captain, and that the operational issues would probably come up as a topic of conversation.

She said, and I quote, "If I were you, I wouldn't buy him a drink."

Ouch!

I responded that I thought he had a trip the next day, so he probably wasn't drinking.

Still, the CSAs have probably taken a lot of flak from passengers whose flights have been delayed or cancelled, and they probably are more than a little irritated with the pilots.

It would be interesting to know how the other work groups at AA feel about the pilots and what they are alleged to be doing to disrupt operations.

By the way, I mentioned the conversation with the CSA to the 737 Captain. Both he and his wife laughed, and we actually didn't discuss the state of affairs at AA.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 13:05:10 and read 6391 times.

Quoting mcg (Reply 271):
Seems like you handled the delay well and I apologize on behalf of the passenger.

Thanks.

Quoting mcg (Reply 271):
The pilots on the flight in question made no PA and simply taxied very slow.

I can't comment on the slow taxi, as I obviously wasn't there. Unfortunately, the FAA regulations prohibit us from making PA's while moving. It's part of the sterile cockpit rule while moving on the ground and flying below 10,000. However, I think it is inappropriate to not make a PA once stopped if the delay is excessive.

I will add, that if I see a long line waiting for takeoff, I will definitely taxi much slower than normal. To waste fuel to just taxi faster to get to the point I have to stop and wait is unproductive. Kind of like slowing down early approaching a red light. However, once stopped in line I would most definitely make a PA explaining the delay. I find that 99% of the passengers handle delays and maintenance issues so much better when kept informed. No one wants to be kept in the dark. It is obviously common courtesy.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: pu
Posted 2012-09-30 13:18:45 and read 6331 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 268):
Ahh no, management did not acquire the company debt, they are put in charge of managing the debt

No.
Who brought the company into debt if not management?

Quoting par13del (Reply 268):

A number of the prior investors are still in the game, they

Who, exactly?
I believe creditors are the only ones effectively "in the game" and I don't count bondholders as investors in terms of what the BOD is supposed to protect. Neither allegedly have a voice on the board, but are now in control of the company. Managment has every incentive to take on more debt if bankruptcy is their plan as it leaves them in control and eliminates bothersome shareholders.

Quoting par13del (Reply 268):
they conned the BOD imagine what they would / have done to the minions below them?

They are doing it.
.
Bankruptcy shields the BOD from most shareholder suits against them. Thus as corporate performance declines, boards start seeking to protect themselves more than the shareholders. Bad management needs a cooperative or sleeping board to remain bad as long as AMR has been. Bankruptcy protects both the BOD and managment as they both wrestle the company from its true owners, the shareholders, inorder to CYA from litigation and ensure mgmt gets a post- bx payday.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-30 13:21:56]

[Edited 2012-09-30 13:23:06]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: crAAzy
Posted 2012-09-30 14:23:39 and read 6190 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 236):

They are going far beyond what they need to. They are truly being vindictive by going as far as they are. They are punishing the pilots for voting no. If not, why would they offer gate gate agents a 5.5% 401k match and give nothing to the pilots. I am a capitalist. I understand very well how business works. Trust me, these guys are going for the jugular.

Of course they are. This should come as no surprise to the pilots and it should come as no surprise to any of the union groups that the further they push AA into a loss making situation, the more more vindictive management is going to be. Unfortunately, the pilots are in a position where AA's management can do the most damage to them because it has gotten to the point where their contract has now been thrown out the window.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I really feel for the employees at AA, but AA's management team is on a role and will do/cut/slash everything it can get away with during BK because they DO NOT and WILL NOT want to file again in a few years. The more the employee groups try to fight back and jeopardize the company's plan to exit while in BK the more damage AA's management can (and likely) will do to the work groups. It doesn't matter what the pilots (or anyone else) think the ARE doing - the perceptions, operational issues, and loss of customers is just going to give AA (and some of it's creditors) an excuse to be even more vindictive.

It's clear almost every AA employee hates Horton and Co. and wants new management, but it's Horton's team that is still calling the shots and making the decisions. It's the management team they really have nothing to lose at the end of this "game" and if they feel like they are going to be out of the picture anyway then like their predecessors they will fall on their sword - that's what they get paid to do. Unfortunately, the Excalibur for the pilot group is their pension and I wouldn't put it past Horton to drop the pilot pensions completely as his final screw you to the pilots.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 14:34:14 and read 6169 times.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 275):
Of course they are. This should come as no surprise to the pilots and it should come as no surprise to any of the union groups that the further they push AA into a loss making situation, the more more vindictive management is going to be. Unfortunately, the pilots are in a position where AA's management can do the most damage to them because it has gotten to the point where their contract has now been thrown out the window.

All true. I am not that worried about the vindictive part too much. Yes, they can do what they want. For now. There will be a consensual agreement sometime, or this place will absolutely disintegrate and AA will no longer exist as we now know it.
That, I have no doubt. This is AA putting the squeeze on the pilots trying to get us to capitulate and cave. Nothing earth shattering here. At some point in the future, this will boil into something that will be uncontainable. I am not speaking for me personally, because I can afford to leave. Not that I want to. I have just seen the anger brewing and escalating. My understanding is that the creditors are watching very closely. Apparently they invited the APA to meet with the UCC's labor sub-committee.

As I have said before, there is enough blame to go around. Either the UCC, AA and APA compromise for a win win, or it will be a lose, lose. Hopefully, they can see what is happening in Washington DC and see that a lack of compromise gets everyone nowhere.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-30 15:41:11 and read 6144 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 276):
For now. There will be a consensual agreement sometime,

The trouble is that this nonsense has already done damage to passenger perceptions and will do more damage every day it wears on. Of all companies, AA should know that. After all, they benefited from UA's travails in the summer of 2000 for a decade or more.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-09-30 15:49:57 and read 6131 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 272):
It would be interesting to know how the other work groups at AA feel about the pilots and what they are alleged to be doing to disrupt operations.

I think we all know the answer to that one, the other labour groups have not had the power of flight crew and as such have been broken a long time ago. AA was able to get agreements with most other groups but the pilots, so I'm betting relations with other staff was bad prior, look at the pink slips already announced before the slow down, thousands but none of them pilots, so do you think resentment existed prior to the slowdown or what?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 15:54:50 and read 6129 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 277):
The trouble is that this nonsense has already done damage to passenger perceptions and will do more damage every day it wears on. Of all companies, AA should know that. After all, they benefited from UA's travails in the summer of 2000 for a decade or more.

I am not referring to what is supposedly happening now. That is in my humble opinion AA running a very poor airline. I am talking about some point in the future. I am not saying I necessarily agree that a meltdown sometime in the future is a good idea. I just know many guys are financially preparing themselves for a possible D-day. In my almost 30 years, I have NEVER seen this group so upset. It is truly a powder keg. I sat my wife down, and said to pray for the best, but to brace for the worse. I pray daily it does not come down to this.

[Edited 2012-09-30 15:56:37]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: SHUPirate1
Posted 2012-09-30 15:58:06 and read 6114 times.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 240):

Here's my question, and this probably cuts to the heart of the matter...why does AMR Corp. (and, for that matter, nearly every other unionized company in the country) have to have multiple bargaining units. To me, that's a large portion of the problem.

Just at AA, you have the APA (pilots), the TWU's seven different bargaining units (dispatchers, fleet service, stores, ground school instructors, simulator technicians, mechanics, and technical specialists), and the APFA (flight attendants). What you essentially have, in your scenario, is nine different bargaining units bargaining with the company separately for the same slice of the pie, and since you guys were the last ones to an agreement, you guys get the short end of the straw. Unfortunately, what that means is the nine of you can't work together to say to the company "look, what can we do to make the pie bigger", and that 401(k) match would be identical (with respect to wages) across the entire company, the benefits would be identical (and proportionate) across the entire company, and the entire company would be covered under one contract, and you (the Aluminum Tube Aircraft Workers of America) can work together to make the company better, rather than the status quo, which doesn't work for any heavily-unionized airline in the country except for Southwest (and probably doesn't work for very many heavily-unionized-but-fragmented companies of any type on this planet).

Just the thinking of this one outside-the-Metroplex person...

Aluminumtubing, just wanted to ask my question again. Wasn't sure if you saw it the first time, after I posted at 1:30 AM local.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 16:25:22 and read 6051 times.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 280):
Aluminumtubing, just wanted to ask my question again. Wasn't sure if you saw it the first time, after I posted at 1:30 AM local

I am sorry I failed to respond. I did see your post and was distracted by another.

Having one bargaining unit is impossible with groups so diverse as what we have here at AA.

The most simple example, is that different organizations have different trade groups. You have the NRA representing gun owners and the tobacco lobby representing the tobacco industry. I just picked two entities at random, no hidden meanings here. Both entities represent their specific interests efficiently, or so we would hope. Having one organization representing both would be a disaster.

In a capitalist society, it is normal for those with a higher skill set or skill that is in higher demand to command a better pay package. It takes years to properly train a pilot and for that person to gain the experience. Sure, according to the Federal Air Regulations, you can hire someone with relatively little experience. So, if you want to have low time pilots in the cockpit, you can do that with a much lower cost. If you want experienced pilots with thousands of hours, you need to pay more. To agree to pay a constant 401k contribution level to all may seem fair, but is not capitalistic in nature (in other words follow the law of supply and demand) nor realistic. So, each group on the property has it's own union to represent its interests to the best of their ability. You would most certainly pay the Lawyer more than the receptionist.

And please understand when I say a person with certain skills should command a better compensation package, I don't intend to infer that the pilots are better people or are better human beings just because we have a certain skill set. Quite the contrary. Each and every employee provides a needed skill set to help get the job done.

Others here may disagree with me and I may get clobbered, but that is my explanation in a fairly simplistic manner.

[Edited 2012-09-30 16:27:56]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: SHUPirate1
Posted 2012-09-30 16:39:00 and read 6005 times.

Point taken, and I understand on that point, but why does the TWU bargain on behalf of seven separate unions, when they are all basically bargaining against each other? That makes absolutely no sense, and it seems to be an arrangement that, to me, benefits no one, and hurts everybody.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 16:53:57 and read 5983 times.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 282):

Point taken, and I understand on that point, but why does the TWU bargain on behalf of seven separate unions, when they are all basically bargaining against each other? That makes absolutely no sense, and it seems to be an arrangement that, to me, benefits no one, and hurts everybody.

You have a good point. That has been a bone of contention for some time. I know the mechanics for example have wanted to split off for some time for just that reason. They have a very important skill set and obviously have different interests. So do the dispatchers and sim instructors for that matter. So, I am somewhat surprised that they haven't split up. I truly don't have an answer for that. Maybe there is a a.net who is a TWU member that could better answer that.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-09-30 17:09:42 and read 5965 times.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 282):
but why does the TWU bargain on behalf of seven separate unions, when they are all basically bargaining against each other?

A question many TWU members regularly ask.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 282):
That makes absolutely no sense, and it seems to be an arrangement that, to me, benefits no one, and hurts everybody.

Incorrect.

It benefits AA enormously, particularly in the case of the mechanics, because AA is able to play the overhaul/base off the line and get more out of each of them. This is one of the main things that has worked against the mechanics at AA, and why they are, in general, compensated less than mechanics at some other airlines. AA's legacy competitors - including Delta, United and USAirways - all used bankruptcy in the last decade to essentially eliminate in-house overhauls, outsource the bulk of that work to third-party vendors (some in foreign locations) and, in turn, return some of that cost savings to the remaining (substantially-reduced) maintenance workforce in the form of raises, etc. AA, with the not-so-tacit approval and assistance of the TWU, has kept - even with the newly-ratified Chapter 11 CBA - relatively more of its overhaul work in-house than those competitors, but in so doing has progressively driven the average compensation per-mechanic down. The TWU and the base mechanics in Tulsa have, repeatedly, voted for these measures as a way to preserve jobs (which to at least a certain extent, it has), but the result has been more dues-paying TWU members, but lower pay for the entire mechanic workgroup.

Because Tulsa alone accounts for such a huge portion of the entire AA TWU-represented mechanic workgroup, Tulsa can outvote the line stations every time, and as you might imagine, that has not, historically, benefited the line mechanics all that much. It has, many would argue, benefited AA, however.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 17:27:51 and read 5918 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 284):
It benefits AA enormously, particularly in the case of the mechanics, because AA is able to play the overhaul/base off the line and get more out of each of them. This is one of the main things that has worked against the mechanics at AA, and why they are, in general, compensated less than mechanics at some other airlines. AA's legacy competitors - including Delta, United and USAirways - all used bankruptcy in the last decade to essentially eliminate in-house overhauls, outsource the bulk of that work to third-party vendors (some in foreign locations) and, in turn, return some of that cost savings to the remaining (substantially-reduced) maintenance workforce in the form of raises, etc. AA, with the not-so-tacit approval and assistance of the TWU, has kept - even with the newly-ratified Chapter 11 CBA - relatively more of its overhaul work in-house than those competitors, but in so doing has progressively driven the average compensation per-mechanic down. The TWU and the base mechanics in Tulsa have, repeatedly, voted for these measures as a way to preserve jobs (which to at least a certain extent, it has), but the result has been more dues-paying TWU members, but lower pay for the entire mechanic workgroup.

I knew someone could provide a better answer regarding the TWU!

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: YYZAMS
Posted 2012-09-30 17:49:32 and read 5883 times.

I didn't book on AA for my holiday because of this, even though it was cheaper. I am in support of the pilots, however, in the end I only have a limited number of days to fly out and can't risk the hassle.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-30 18:01:14 and read 5860 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 279):
I am not referring to what is supposedly happening now.

I don't think there's anything "supposed" about the operational issues that are happening now. They have even made it in to the mainstream media; I heard a story about it on NPR last Wednesday or Thursday and have read a couple of pieces in larger newspapers as well.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-09-30 18:01:57 and read 5867 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 278):
I think we all know the answer to that one, the other labour groups have not had the power of flight crew and as such have been broken a long time ago. AA was able to get agreements with most other groups but the pilots, so I'm betting relations with other staff was bad prior, look at the pink slips already announced before the slow down, thousands but none of them pilots, so do you think resentment existed prior to the slowdown or what?

When I talk to union workers outside of the airline industry, it's definitely like the Three Muskateers---all for one and one for all. You don't see carpenters thinking that the plumbers are angling for a better deal, so we will cross their picket line.

By the same token, you may find at other carriers that the various unions are all part of the AFL-CIO, including ALPA.

My father was in labor relations for 7 years. You may find that one work group takes a contract for various reasons, but they will support another work group trying to get a better deal. After all, everyone is fighting the same common enemy, management.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 18:04:09 and read 5865 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 287):
I don't think there's anything "supposed" about the operational issues that are happening now. They have even made it in to the mainstream media; I heard a story about it on NPR last Wednesday or Thursday and have read a couple of pieces in larger newspapers as well.

I can't disagree the operation is not doing well to say the least. Where we disagree, is whether the pilots are to blame or whether AA is mismanaging the airline. I have learned years ago that what is in print is not necessarily factual. And as for NPR, well....

[Edited 2012-09-30 18:05:53]

[Edited 2012-09-30 18:08:15]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-30 18:11:11 and read 5842 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 289):
Where we disagree, is whether the pilots are to blame or whether AA is mismanaging the airline.

Who is to blame doesn't make a lick of difference to me when I go to book a flight. It saddens me equally whether it's a job action, mismanagement or some combination of the two (which I think is the most likely, FWIW).

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-09-30 18:18:17 and read 5814 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 266):
That is an outstanding question. I have been asking myself that same question for the last several years. Actually though, I know the answer. They are so short personnel they can't accomplish that. Why do you think AA had all those fines. I can assure you, it wasn't the pilots. It certainly wasn't the mechanics. We have one hell of a group of mechanics at AA. When a certain VP took over, I supported his actions to streamline maintenance and to make the process more effecient. He cut through all the fat. The problem, was he did not stop there. He cut through muscle and eventually into the bone marrow. We did not have the spare parts and aircraft were no longer checked on many overnights. Our mechanics would have loved to have been able to do their jobs. It is not uncommon to have to have seat cushions replaced due to spills, etc. I have been in DFW a number of times where they didn't even have spare seat cushions or covers and we had to block off a seat to a fare paying revenue passenger. Or if they did, we had to wait for them to be sent over from the hangar. These are routine items frequently needed that should be stored on the ramp This in not uncommon. It frustrates the hell out of us, but no one will listen to our debriefs. They are the experts and we are just the hired help. I have spoken directly to the chief pilots to point out some glaring details. They agree, but only shrug. They aren't listened to either.

Sorry, that was a long bloviating response to a simple question.

I appreciate the response very much!  


Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 267):
Again, I am truly sorry your flight did not go as planned. This whole AA thing for whatever reason makes me sick to my stomach. And I have a strong stomach.

Obviously, not being there I have no idea as to the specifics. When taxing out to the 8/12 departure area, I always brief my FO on the departure plan and procedure for both the 8 and 12 runways ahead of time. At least according to my experience, they tend to plan you on a east departure and then at the last minute, change it to 12 or vice versa. I don't get to MIA often, but that is my experience anyway. At the last second you have to change the "box" (FMC) and in some cases flap settings and speeds. That takes a few minutes, as it has to be loaded and verbaly checked and verified by both crew members. And also, with a change in flap settings, a portion of the TakeOff check has to be redone. I know the northside versus the southside is a little bit different, but due to inbound traffic, they may have wanted your flight on a right downwind departure versus a left downwind for flow. Again, I wasn't there, but those are normally the reasons why. While I will certainly request a certain runway due to weight and balance and performance isssues at times, 99% of the time we go where they send us. My guess, is that after a 2.5 hour delay, the crew just wanted to get the heck out of there and to their layover hotel as well.

And I also appreciate that response very much as well.  


Quoting Revelation (Reply 269):
Well, on the good news side of the equation, it seems your crew made up for 40 minutes of the delay while airborne!


Yes they did! And apparently with some pretty strong headwinds which is even more remarkable.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-09-30 18:22:06 and read 5823 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 290):
Who is to blame doesn't make a lick of difference to me when I go to book a flight. It saddens me

We are going to have to agree to agree. It saddens me more than you can ever know. I have given almost 30 years to this company. I and my family have invested a lot. And I am willing to continue to give it all I have. And to see folks like you suffering as well makes it even worse. There is a solution. Whether or not it is pursued is beyond your and my control. I have a feeling if it were up to you and I, we could fix this. In fact, I am sure of it. And more than likely in fairly short order.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-09-30 18:28:02 and read 5785 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 292):
We are going to have to agree to agree. It saddens me more than you can ever know. I have given almost 30 years to this company. I and my family have invested a lot. And I am willing to continue to give it all I have. And to see folks like you suffering as well makes it even worse. There is a solution. Whether or not it is pursued is beyond your and my control. I have a feeling if it were up to you and I, we could fix this. In fact, I am sure of it. And more than likely in fairly short order.

  

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: mcg
Posted 2012-10-01 09:04:08 and read 5276 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 292):
There is a solution. Whether or not it is pursued is beyond your and my control.

What do you think the solution is? I just don't see a solution that makes the pilots happy and is economically viable for the company. Thus the 'rub'.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-10-01 09:11:51 and read 5255 times.

Quoting mcg (Reply 294):

It's called maturity and compromise. I know, good luck with that. 

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-10-01 11:03:51 and read 5052 times.

Quoting mcg (Reply 294):
What do you think the solution is? I just don't see a solution that makes the pilots happy and is economically viable for the company. Thus the 'rub'.

What is a viable middle ground? AMR must return to profit. I would be fine with the idea that employees would be paid less with a bonus at the year end out of profits over X%. But only if management bonus were paid last.  
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 277):
Of all companies, AA should know that. After all, they benefited from UA's travails in the summer of 2000 for a decade or more.

So true. The BK hurt AMR a little, these issues will linger...

Quoting ckfred (Reply 288):
After all, everyone is fighting the same common enemy, management.

There is a problem. They are not enemies. They have conflicting economic interests however...

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: tonytifao
Posted 2012-10-01 13:33:43 and read 4856 times.

Big question here... AA must be losing a lot of money with these operational issues.... how much extra money is AA losing a day? Is there an end insight?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-10-01 13:45:16 and read 4814 times.

If I might return to the actual original topic: are the delays letting up?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: tonytifao
Posted 2012-10-01 13:51:23 and read 4794 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 298):
If I might return to the actual original topic: are the delays letting up?

Exactly! Are there talks going on? Are people willing to work together? Is AA, whoever is to blame, realize their passengers and their reputation are being affected tremendously?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2012-10-01 14:03:24 and read 4783 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 298):
If I might return to the actual original topic: are the delays letting up?

AA's flight 1520 LAX to MIA - the flagship 777 service has been repeatedly "delayed" today. It was supposed to depart at 10:40 a.m.. As of this post, an announcement has been posted every half hour or so delaying the flight a further 30 minutes.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: us330
Posted 2012-10-01 14:17:17 and read 4727 times.

AluminumTubing, just curious if you think that the pilots would be acting this way if new management had come in (not the mere replacing of Arpey by a subordinate--I mean bringing in people from outside the company) and the same contractual terms had been presented to the pilots?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: tonytifao
Posted 2012-10-01 14:33:01 and read 4733 times.

This is where AA is annoying. 1520 is delayed but the continuing flight, MIA GRU is still ontime! Lots of courtesy to their pax

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: n471wn
Posted 2012-10-01 14:35:53 and read 4720 times.

anyone who books on American during this slow-down deserves what they get . This is not going to go away.....just heard that Delta is honoring American's status customers.....

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-10-01 14:40:00 and read 4707 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 298):
If I might return to the actual original topic: are the delays letting up?

The weekend was not as bad for cancels, but ontime performance was weak.

Saturday - 30 cancels - 62% ontime arrivals
Sunday - 23 cancels - 55% OT
Monday - 14 cancels - 63% OT (as of 3pm central)

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 300):
AA's flight 1520 LAX to MIA - the flagship 777 service has been repeatedly "delayed" today. It was supposed to depart at 10:40 a.m.. As of this post, an announcement has been posted every half hour or so delaying the flight a further 30 minutes.

Appears flight pushed ontime - 1041am, but returned with a maintenance issue.
At 1145am they decided to begin reaccommodating pax on other flights.
Pushed second time at 238pm.


Quoting tonytifao (Reply 302):
This is where AA is annoying. 1520 is delayed but the continuing flight, MIA GRU is still ontime! Lots of courtesy to their pax

1520 is a terminator. LAX-MIA only.

If you are asking about flight MIA-GRU 907 that happens to be pending on decision as there is no equipment for it at the moment. Once LAX leaves with an ETA, I guess they will update 907, or swap equipment out.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: audidudi
Posted 2012-10-01 14:41:58 and read 4689 times.

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 302):
AA 1520 now looks to have been cancelled today as it no longer shows on FlightAware.

Update from FlightAware now shows it took off at 2.57 PDT.

[Edited 2012-10-01 15:26:37]

[Edited 2012-10-01 15:32:02]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-01 14:44:21 and read 4680 times.

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 302):
This is where AA is annoying. 1520 is delayed but the continuing flight, MIA GRU is still ontime! Lots of courtesy to their pax

Yesterday, AA957 MIA-SCL was delayed for 9 hours and the flight departed MIA at 08:45AM! SCL pax are starting to avoid booking flights on AA due to these delays!

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-10-01 15:16:59 and read 4563 times.

1520 is airborne - ETA MIA 2232. Equipment is now planned to continue on 995 MIA-GRU at 2345.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: audidudi
Posted 2012-10-01 15:17:07 and read 4568 times.

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 302):
AA 907 is now showing a 3 hours departure delay from MIA-GRU. AA 1520 departed LAX at 2.57 PDT for MIA, thus running about 4 hours late.

[Edited 2012-10-01 15:25:23]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: audidudi
Posted 2012-10-01 15:22:09 and read 4539 times.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 303):

I hope that DL gets to keep some of AA's status customers permanently. As others have said, why would you book on AA at all during this slow-down, unless there are no other options? Good for DL doing a class act!

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-10-01 15:31:48 and read 4482 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 304):

The weekend was not as bad for cancels, but ontime performance was weak.

Saturday - 30 cancels - 62% ontime arrivals
Sunday - 23 cancels - 55% OT
Monday - 14 cancels - 63% OT (as of 3pm central)

Do we know how that compares to the other majors?

Quoting audidudi (Reply 308):
AA 907 is now showing a 3 hours departure delay from MIA-GRU. AA 1520 departed LAX at 2.57 PDT for MIA, thus running about 4 hours late.

Why wouldn't they show the inevitable 4h delay?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-10-01 15:39:40 and read 4460 times.

Quoting us330 (Reply 301):

AluminumTubing, just curious if you think that the pilots would be acting this way if new management had come in (not the mere replacing of Arpey by a subordinate--I mean bringing in people from outside the company) and the same contractual terms had been presented to the pilots?

I am not sure exactly what "acting this way" means. If it is a job action, as I have mentioned earlier, I don't believe the pilots are doing anything wrong. I truly believe the company is so short people and parts they can't keep the operation going properly. I know many on here differ in their opinions, and that's fine.

As far as the pilots excepting the terms of the LBFO if there was different management, I don't think that would have been the only solution. I think for a new contract, there would not be enough votes unless there was a pathway towards an industry standard contract. Pilots are simply professionals who while understanding the economic reality of the situation do not expect to have our careers destroyed. They don't have to be. If a company can't compensate close to the market conditions, maybe they don't need to be in business.

I honestly hope I answered your question. Just like my other posts, this is just my opinion and perspective. We'll have to let the other experts chime in.

[Edited 2012-10-01 15:41:03]

[Edited 2012-10-01 15:53:09]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: us330
Posted 2012-10-01 15:57:38 and read 4386 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 311):
I truly believe the company is so short people and parts they can't keep the operation going properly. I know many on here differ in their opinions, and that's fine

I think the problem that American's pilots now face is that even if this statement is true, the pilots need to do a better PR job because the public perception is that the pilots are engaging in some sort of job action and engaging in action that will have the effect of cutting off their nose to spite their face.

You've provided an interesting perspective on these issues--and I appreciate you using your off-duty time to participate in this forum.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 311):
I honestly hope I answered your question

You did your best, considering how poorly I phrased the original question. I guess what I'm trying to get at, and what I'm curious about, is why wasn't management replaced when the company filed for bankruptcy. While labor issues are far from AMR's only problem, my perception, just based on what I was reading, was that there existed such an animosity between management and labor prior to bankruptcy that the only way American could possibly turn around is if one of the two feuding parties was replaced--which in this case means management. As an analogy, when a sports team is underachieving or outright failing, the first person to go isn't the players, but the coach in an effort to turn over a new leaf and create a fresh atmosphere.

Furthermore, if what you stated in my above quote is true, then it appears that management may not only be despised by labor, but they might be borderline incompetent too.

From an outsider's perspective, American simply appears to be falling apart, and it desperately needs some sort of revival or new blood that can provide some sort of visionary leadership.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: oneskyjet
Posted 2012-10-01 16:07:24 and read 4353 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 311):
I am not sure exactly what "acting this way" means. If it is a job action, as I have mentioned earlier, I don't believe the pilots are doing anything wrong. I truly believe the company is so short people and parts they can't keep the operation going properly. I know many on here differ in their opinions, and that's fine.

Are you seriously still maintaining the fantasy that there is no pilot job action? Gimme a break: the numbers speak for themselves since mid September and passengers are taking notice and "voting with their feet" by booking away from AA because they cant depend on it. So I must conclude that in fact you believe the second part of your statement - that the pilots aren't doing anything wrong. In effect, you are saying that there is nothing wrong with holding an airline hostage. As one of your customers, they message is clear: take my business elsewhere.

How can this possibly be good for you, your membership, the rest of your employee colleagues?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-10-01 16:25:05 and read 4273 times.

Quoting us330 (Reply 312):
the pilots need to do a better PR job

On the one hand, I couldn't agree more. On the other hand however, I am not really sure what the APA can do. The bottom line, is many people think that anyone who makes more than them is overpaid and hence devoid of sympathy as it were and I don't think you can change that perception. Again, just my humble opinion.

Quoting us330 (Reply 312):
You did your best, considering how poorly I phrased the original question. I guess what I'm trying to get at, and what I'm curious about, is why wasn't management replaced when the company filed for bankruptcy. While labor issues are far from AMR's only problem, my perception, just based on what I was reading, was that there existed such an animosity between management and labor prior to bankruptcy that the only way American could possibly turn around is if one of the two feuding parties was replaced--which in this case means management. As an analogy, when a sports team is underachieving or outright failing, the first person to go isn't the players, but the coach in an effort to turn over a new leaf and create a fresh atmosphere.

You pose a very good question. The board and other stake holders really don't give a rats patoot about the employees and wouldn't change management just because of bad labor relations. If the profits were there, they wouldn't care if we were beaten half to death. That is just reality. I certainly understand that.

As far as performance is concerned, that is A VERY GOOD question. As I have said before, this management team is just part of the musical chair shuffle. They have been around for so long and are ingrained in AMR's toxic environment. The various versions of our management teams have so underperformed their peers its been sickening. It's easy to blame that all on the employees, but that is disingenuous. Has the labor cost structure been out of kilter after the other airlines delcared bankruptcy. Sure. But there have been major structural problems as well. And the board has been asleep at the wheel. After the Carty fiasco, the only board member with the testicular fortitude to really speak out, was Boren. Again, in my humble opinion, these folks should have been thrown out with the used lav fluid and replaced with a new team having a vision, a plan and the ability to motivate the troops as it were. Maybe someone like Gordon Bethune. It seemed to work at Continental. This is a stodgy old group incapable of thinking outside the box. I can say that about many unions including the APA as well sometimes, unfortunately. Again, as I mentioned before, I embrace capitalism with all my heart. The problem sometimes is that corporate executives think too short term and have no vision and they are enabled by the boards who also lack vision, etc.

So, in short, why were they not replace? That's a question I can't answer. I would like to hear from the board.

Quoting us330 (Reply 312):
Furthermore, if what you stated in my above quote is true, then it appears that management may not only be despised by labor, but they might be borderline incompetent too.


All I can say, is that the employees want LEADERSHIP not managers. Anyone can manage to a certain extent, but unfortunately nowadays, there is not enough leadership in this country. Corporate or politics. We want leadership with a plan and a vision going forward.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-10-01 16:35:46 and read 4220 times.

Quoting Reply 313):
Are you seriously still maintaining the fantasy that there is no pilot job action? Gimme a break: the numbers speak for themselves since mid September and passengers are taking notice and "voting with their feet" by booking away from AA because they cant depend on it. So I must conclude that in fact you believe the second part of your statement - that the pilots aren't doing anything wrong. In effect, you are saying that there is nothing wrong with holding an airline hostage. As one of your customers, they message is clear: take my business elsewhere.

How can this possibly be good for you, your membership, the rest of your employee colleagues?

I think I have covered all this in my previous threads. So, no need to rehash.

I speak from my heart and my viewpoint is just that, my viewpoint. I do not believe that any of the rules of conduct on this website require anyone to agree with me. I was actually called delusional a couple days ago. I cried myself to sleep. Actually that's not true. The part about crying myself to sleep!  

I spent all day today managing the trajectories of my big silver jet and everything went just fine and my passengers exited said jet happy as far as I could tell.

You will have to excuse my sarcasm. It's not personal. It helps me deal with all the horse droppings we have to deal with at work all day.

[Edited 2012-10-01 16:38:24]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-10-01 16:37:51 and read 4214 times.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 303):
anyone who books on American during this slow-down deserves what they get . This is not going to go away.....just heard that Delta is honoring American's status customers.....

Just as I deserve sitting for 2 hours yesterday on a plane with - at best - dismal air conditioning in 95 degrees at MIA due to a maintenance right up at departure...





...on Delta


Are AA worse than average right now? Sure. But just like the scores of MileagePlus members who allegedly left UA after 3/3 I can't help but think that this is just a Medallion wet dream.

That said, I will give credit to DL where it's due. When I flew down to Miami on Thursday we were delayed 90 minutes with AA, not so much as an apology. On the way back DL gave us $50 credit against a future purchase and $16 in meal vouchers to use during our layover in ATL after we missed our connection... and we arrived at our destination only 1h45m we originally booked to. Is this standard at DL or are they being generous right now to differentiate themselves from AA?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-01 16:50:56 and read 4155 times.

This battle of the wills has to end eventually - one side or the other has to cave. The pilots (and potentially to a lesser extent mechanics) are obviously pissed at the company and some, it seems to me, are determined that if AMR's Board of Directors and the Unsecured Creditors Committee (UCC) are unwilling to transfer any more of the value of the company to the pilot work group, then they will ensure that that value is destroyed rather than transferred to somebody else. And that is, bottom line, what is occurring - value is being destroyed rather than transferred to any stakeholder.

On the flip side, AMR management's motivation is also quite clear. Horton is desperately trying to hold out as long as possible without caving in so that his position isn't weakened to the point that a USAirways merger (and thus loss-of-control) becomes the only option. He wants to keep the pilot contract as cheap as possible so that the AMR "standalone" plan built around that contract looks as financially favorable to the UCC as possible versus the Parker/merger plan. The pilot contract is also, of course, the costliest and most strategically critical contract of all of them, so Horton apparently doesn't want to hand over one dime more than he's forced to. In addition, I think I remember hearing that the "me too" clauses the APFA and TWU negotiated have an expiration date. If that's true, that also obviously incentivizes AMR to try and hold out.

This is obviously causing financial harm to AMR - which, again, I believe is precisely the intended objective for some. I see this ending one of two ways. If this goes on long enough, and sufficient value in AMR is destroyed, the creditors of the company may simply decide "enough is enough" and liquidate the whole thing. I find that prospect highly unlikely, though. I think more likely where this is heading is the UCC ultimately getting behind a merger plan with Horton cut out. The merger makes sense on many (though not all) levels, and is probably inevitable anyway either before or after AMR emerges from bankruptcy.

The unions would no doubt rejoice (at least in the short-term). Never a dull moment ...

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-10-01 16:53:21 and read 4147 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 317):
value is being destroyed

True statement.

Excellent post as well.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-10-01 16:57:06 and read 4144 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 310):
Do we know how that compares to the other majors?

Sure. Here are Sunday numbers for OALs.

B6 - 1 cancel - 85% OT
DL - 2 cancel - 87% OT
UA - 8 cancel - 79% OT
US - 3 cancel - 92% OT
WN - 3 cancel - 82% OT

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-10-01 18:34:25 and read 3964 times.

I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me about what happened to AA1004 from MIA to RDU today. It was 90 minutes late and a friend on the flight told me that it was because (and I quote directly) "the crew were on strike". When I pressed him for details he admitted to not really understanding what had happened, but said that they had to wait on board for a new crew to arrive.

If his account is true then that's pretty damn significant... direct illegal industrial action. I do doubt it, but was wondering if anyone knew more?

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-10-01 18:36:58 and read 3955 times.

1004 was coded as a maintenance delay.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-10-01 18:38:12 and read 3961 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 316):
That said, I will give credit to DL where it's due. When I flew down to Miami on Thursday we were delayed 90 minutes with AA, not so much as an apology. On the way back DL gave us $50 credit against a future purchase and $16 in meal vouchers to use during our layover in ATL after we missed our connection... and we arrived at our destination only 1h45m we originally booked to. Is this standard at DL or are they being generous right now to differentiate themselves from AA?

Sounds like standard fair although the agents may have went "above" a bit". The $50 credit is automatic for delays of 3 hours or more. Anything under that is at the discretion of the supervisor. The meal voucher sounded about right.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 310):
Do we know how that compares to the other majors?

Those are scary numbers...

To put things into perspective.. For the week of September 20th - 26th, Delta's completion factor averaged 100%; less than 1 per day for the week. The 26th saw an on time rate of 96%; a new personal best for Delta's history. They're on track to beat out all majors for any recorded record since the numbers have been tracked. Humming along at an 87% on-time rate and 99.7% completion factor YTD..

[Edited 2012-10-01 18:39:51]

[Edited 2012-10-01 18:41:17]

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2012-10-01 18:44:15 and read 3935 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 320):
but said that they had to wait on board for a new crew to arrive.

The maintenance delay may very well have caused the crew to go illegal.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-10-01 18:55:40 and read 3878 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 321):
1004 was coded as a maintenance delay.
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 323):
The maintenance delay may very well have caused the crew to go illegal.

Thanks guys. That makes more sense to me!

I'd suggest that the person I got this didn't just make it up and was repeating what they'd heard from someone else... However it was probably just a rumor doing the rounds on the aircraft. If I was guessing it seems likely that a mechanical delay caused the crew to time out, and then some ExecPlat who spends too much time on FlyerTalk put two and two together to get 50 and decided that they had simply walked off the job.

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: Tx2fl
Posted 2012-10-01 19:43:06 and read 3736 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 322):

To put things into perspective.. For the week of September 20th - 26th, Delta's completion factor averaged 100%; less than 1 per day for the week. The 26th saw an on time rate of 96%; a new personal best for Delta's history. They're on track to beat out all majors for any recorded record since the numbers have been tracked. Humming along at an 87% on-time rate and 99.7% completion factor YTD..

And US Airways is a very close second, with 15 100% completion days for the year so far and a very small percentage point behind Delta for on time arrivals for the year. I believe for August US beat out DL and it's been neck and neck every month for 2012.

And the people keep complaining about US being second rate to AA....hmm..(OK It's the Executive Platinums complaining about using a plastic cup in first maybe..oh the horror!)

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2012-10-01 19:50:24 and read 3712 times.

As this becomes too long, we are archiving this thread.

We opened a new one so discussions can continue

AA Cancellations Continue - Part II (by LipeGIG Oct 1 2012 in Civil Aviation)


Posts after this will be deleted as a potential result of system lag


Regards,

Felipe
Forum Moderator

Topic: RE: AA Cancellations Continue
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2012-10-01 23:28:53 and read 3525 times.

The irony here is that if AA goes under, who is ever going to hire a AA pilot from "the last days"?

HR person: "Oh I see here that you were a pilot at AA when they went chapter 7, who is your buddy who got this past the autodelete function? We here at reasonable airlines taxi at normal speeds and write up MX issues when noticed, not 5 minutes after leaving the gate. So please, leave now and maybe if you move fast enough security will get a little workout trying to keep up to make sure you don't take any stationary on your way out!"

Its clear that working for AA isn't THAT bad, after all when all those awesome high paying jobs in the middle east, asia, and other parts... AA still has pilots working for them. WN hasn't stolen all the 737 pilots with their top of the industry pay. Heck someone here did a comparison and found that many people could make more at WN in a couple years than sticking with thier decade plus at thier current airline.

I'll tell you the exact instant when I knew AA pilots were the anchor that was going to drag AA to the bottom of the sea. The day when AA asked them to approve work rules for flights over 12hrs and the Pilots told AA to pound sand. Thats right, AA wanted more pilots to do more work and the pilots union came back and said "nah, we are just fine where we are. you don't pay us enough so we might strike at any time, but we don't need to work more or have more pilots flying"

Since then been plenty of comedy with the various bits about how they don't get paid enough to make ends meet, which is usualy right around the same time that AA is asking them to raise the minimum hours from the industry low, or some study showing the horrid AA pilot productivity.

I just feel bad for all the other AA employees and shareholders who have gotten the shaft due to AA pilots refusing to agree to the same basic work rules as other airline pilots. For refusing to work with the management to be flexible and grow so that AA might employ more pilots flying to more places instead of fewer to less. For working harder to put AA out of business than they do to keep AA in.


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