Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5577026/

Topic: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-10-01 16:29:05 and read 6602 times.

I couldn't find this posted anywhere else.

http://seattletimes.com/html/boeinga...space/2019316423_gol737maxxml.html

Brazilian low-cost airline Gol on Monday announced a firm order for 60 of Boeing’s forthcoming 737 MAX jets featuring new fuel-efficient engines.

The order brings Boeing’s order tally for the MAX to 724. The company has said it aims to have 1,000 orders booked by year-end.

[Edited 2012-10-01 16:29:40]

[Edited 2012-10-01 16:30:05]

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-10-01 16:38:04 and read 6555 times.

Hope it includes some MAX-7 orders to launch that subtype.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-10-01 16:55:55 and read 6441 times.

There was a thread, but it appears to have been deleted.

Boeing Press Release on the order - http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2431

This is an important order for Boeing in South America as Airbus has 75 A320neo orders in the region across a number of different carriers.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: oksman
Posted 2012-10-01 17:03:50 and read 6399 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
There was a thread, but it appears to have been deleted.

I saw that one, why was it deleted?

What about the 787? Any news on the speculated order to star long haul routes?

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: rotating14
Posted 2012-10-01 17:51:28 and read 6190 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 1):
Hope it includes some MAX-7 orders to launch that subtype.

  

Hopefully a 50/10 split, but I'll guess it'll be an all MAX 8 order.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: juanchito
Posted 2012-10-01 19:01:46 and read 5978 times.

Awww they deleted my thread.

Good news for Boeing and Gol keep the orders comming.

Juanchito

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-10-01 19:18:31 and read 5877 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 1):
Hope it includes some MAX-7 orders to launch that subtype.

GOL needs short field operations and with the weights on the MAX going up, the -7 might be needed for Rio and similar airports that have very short runways.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-10-01 21:12:53 and read 5577 times.

Wow, Latin America is proving to be a great place for Boeing. First the massive AM MAX order and now Gol's. Congrats to both Gol and Boeing!

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 6):
GOL needs short field operations and with the weights on the MAX going up, the -7 might be needed for Rio and similar airports that have very short runways.

Yes CGH in Sao Paulo and SDU in Rio.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: voar
Posted 2012-10-02 04:57:59 and read 5200 times.

Even more important than the Short-field operations capability is the maximum wingspan at CGH. It cannot be bigger than the 737-800 or it won't fit in the gates there. Currently there is only about 3m distance between parked aircraft.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: avi8
Posted 2012-10-02 05:33:21 and read 5102 times.

I wonder when COPA will order the MAX. I thought we would see their order sooner given the long flights they make to deep South America.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: Chiad
Posted 2012-10-02 06:26:47 and read 4945 times.

First delivery in 2018
  

That is a very very long time to wait.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: brindabella
Posted 2012-10-02 06:58:26 and read 4832 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 1):
Hope it includes some MAX-7 orders to launch that subtype.

Really? 724 orders and not even one -7 yet?

Bill

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-10-02 09:07:58 and read 4426 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 6):
the -7 might be needed for Rio and similar airports that have very short runways.

Interesting... But wouldn't it just make sense for GOL to keep their current 73Gs for those few airports? Leasing costs of the -7MAX will be higher due to expected poor resale.

Quoting Chiad (Reply 10):
First delivery in 2018

Appropriate for the MAX. Kudos to Boeing for such a long lead order. I'm sure there is flexibility for GOL.

Quoting brindabella (Reply 11):
724 orders and not even one -7 yet?

Every time Boeing has improved the engines on the 737, the prefered sub-type has grown. Why would leasing companies risk taking a poor resale version? The 73G and A319 resale values were already taking a hit as airlines shifted to the A320/738. There simply is not enough cost difference per flight to justify a smaller type.

With the JT8Ds, the 732 was the preferred length
With the CFM-3s, the 733 was the preferred length, not the 735 (732 length)
With the CFM-7s, the 738 is the dominant type, with the 736s being scrapped due to such low demand and reduced resale of the 73Gs.

With WN (and thus FL) going to the 738, where is the resale market for the -7MAX? I do not see it. If I were a bank VP or leasing VP, I wouldn't approve a loan on a 737-7MAX without a substantial down payment *and* an aggressive depreciation schedule. For that is the only way to make money on the type. Otherwise, the leasing and financing companies should stick with the far more liquid 738MAX/739MAX.

This shift to a longer length has happened every engine change on the 737. Why fight it? If GOL needs a smaller plane, the airline is large enough now to order a dedicated sub fleet. I doubt they will, but the current 73Gs can fill that role if the field is too short.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: odwyerpw
Posted 2012-10-02 10:08:29 and read 3992 times.

Stretch the 7Max to be a true 149pax plane at 32" pitch - y class.

I guess you only do this if you think you will loose potential 7MAX sales to another competitors aircraft, rather than to the 8MAX.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-10-02 10:13:29 and read 3964 times.

Quoting brindabella (Reply 11):
Really? 724 orders and not even one -7 yet?

With trip costs effectively the same, you're leaving money on the table flying a 737-7 instead of a 737-8.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-10-02 10:22:41 and read 3903 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Quoting brindabella (Reply 11):
Really? 724 orders and not even one -7 yet?

With trip costs effectively the same, you're leaving money on the table flying a 737-7 instead of a 737-8.

The trip costs are close, but there is a difference. The marginal cost of the extra seats is low, but certainly not zero.

The biggest difference in favor of the -7 is that the 737-7 can takeoff from runways that a 737-8 can't or would be so weight restricted that the 737-7 has better economics.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2012-10-02 10:31:58 and read 3838 times.

Their problem is 2012, not 2018.

They shall use the funds to improve their product and try to launch a better "long haul" 738 product to tap markets in which there's real demand such as United States, Canada and the Caribbean.
This order will not help them today.

That's my 2c

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: glideslope
Posted 2012-10-02 12:10:55 and read 3280 times.

Quoting Chiad (Reply 10):

First delivery in 2018
  

That is a very very long time to wait.

" Good things come to those who wait ".   

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2012-10-02 12:41:09 and read 3127 times.

Quoting avi8 (Reply 9):
I wonder when COPA will order the MAX. I thought we would see their order sooner given the long flights they make to deep South America.

As soon as the MAX is starting to be delivered, any CM NG aircraft already in order or option will be a MAX.quote=Roseflyer,reply=15]The biggest difference in favor of the -7 is that the 737-7 can takeoff from runways that a 737-8 can't or would be so weight restricted that the 737-7 has better economics.[/quote]And the B737-600 can take off from even shorter runways fully loaded than both B737-700 and -800.

Should G3 financial status be of some concern for Boeing or G3 itself?
60 B737MAX isn't a couple of aircraft.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: g500
Posted 2012-10-02 13:20:11 and read 2912 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
They shall use the funds to improve their product and try to launch a better "long haul" 738 product to tap markets in which there's real demand such as United States, Canada and the Caribbean.

Suppose they set up an international hub in Northern Brazil (Manaus). The longer range 737-800 would only be able to reach Southern Florida (MIA, FLL, MCO). The rest of the U.S (LAX, IAH, JFK) would not reachable with a 737 MAX. That might be why some people were expecting a 787 order

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
This order will not help them today

agree. at least It will give their stock price a good jolt upwards

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: yyz717
Posted 2012-10-02 14:53:33 and read 2505 times.

Quoting brindabella (Reply 11):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 1):
Hope it includes some MAX-7 orders to launch that subtype.

Really? 724 orders and not even one -7 yet?

No launch customer fot the MAX-7 yet. It will not enter service until 2019 though, after the -8 and -9.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
With WN (and thus FL) going to the 738, where is the resale market for the -7MAX? I do not see it. If I were a bank VP or leasing VP, I wouldn't approve a loan on a 737-7MAX without a substantial down payment *and* an aggressive depreciation schedule. For that is the only way to make money on the type.

I would agree with your point if we were in say 2017 (5 years from now) but it's early days yet. Once a large/marquis customer has ordered the -7, leasing companies will be more willing to finance -7 orders. Of course.....Boeing still needs the initial -7 order to kickstart the subtype.

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: vatveng
Posted 2012-10-02 15:22:45 and read 2367 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
With the JT8Ds, the 732 was the preferred length
With the CFM-3s, the 733 was the preferred length, not the 735 (732 length)
With the CFM-7s, the 738 is the dominant type, with the 736s being scrapped due to such low demand and reduced resale of the 73Gs.

With the preferred length increasing, could we some day see a MAX-10? How much farther can the 737 platform be stretched before significant structural changes are required that would make a clean-sheet design more cost-effective?

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-10-02 16:10:03 and read 2163 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 20):
Once a large/marquis customer has ordered the -7, leasing companies will be more willing to finance -7 orders. Of course.....Boeing still needs the initial -7 order to kickstart the subtype.

To a degree. That didn't save 736 resale values. The reality is that the cost difference, per flight between a 738MAX and 73GMAX is too little to justify the smaller type. But hey, I hope to be proven wrong!    For a liquid -7 resale market, there must be 20 airlines flying the type. I do not see that happening. Thus, my opinion on why leasing companies will avoid the type.

For example, Lyon air switched from the 739ER to the 738 due to its superior resale value impacting their operating costs. Now that the 739ER is doing better, I expect them to switch back (if they haven't already).

Quoting vatveng (Reply 21):
With the preferred length increasing, could we some day see a MAX-10? How much farther can the 737 platform be stretched before significant structural changes are required that would make a clean-sheet design more cost-effective?

The issue is takeoff performance. I speculate that the 737-9 is shorter than the A321 for that reason. The plane must be designed around tail strikes and that limits runway performance. There might be a small stretch of the -9, but not enough that I would concern myself. I expect the -9 to *eventually* outsell the -8MAX. But when? Eventually is a long time frame.   


I'm more concerned on when we see a TATL range high MTOW 738MAX.   

Quoting g500 (Reply 19):
The rest of the U.S (LAX, IAH, JFK) would not reachable with a 737 MAX.

I'm hearing rumors of a 3900nm+ range 738MAX. That might help a bit.   


Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Firm: GOL To Purchase 60 737MAX
Username: g500
Posted 2012-10-02 17:26:59 and read 2012 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
I'm hearing rumors of a 3900nm+ range 738MAX. That might help a bit.

well then Northern Brazil to Texas and California will be within reach of the MAX


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/