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Topic: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2012-10-02 19:30:00 and read 8410 times.

A few days ago, Illinois governor Pat Quinn submitted a draft of the airport plan to the FAA and also requested the state borrow $71 million dollars more for land acquisition after already spending $30 million.

My question is this: Why does this "airport" keep coming up? With the ORD expansion plan and the GYY runway extension underway, as well as other airports in the area capable of handling the traffic (RFD & MKE) why would there even be a need for a "Third Major Chicago Airport"? And why is the state so keen on pushing it forward?

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: type-rated
Posted 2012-10-02 19:38:33 and read 8392 times.

Personally I think if they tried to build a Peotone airport, it'd become another Mirabel.

There is too much money invested in ORD to even think about building another airport out in the middle of nowhere. If you remember ORD was kind of in the middle of nowhere when it was first built.

One thing it is good for: To be used by the Illinois politico's to threaten any requests for expansion at ORD or MDW.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-10-02 20:41:22 and read 8246 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 1):
One thing it is good for: To be used by the Illinois politico's to threaten any requests for expansion at ORD or MDW.

Not much of a threat, if you ask me. WHAT airline, in their right mind, is going to want to move their operations to Peotone, with possibly already having ops at MDW and ORD or at least ORD? Just makes no sense, especially as far away as it is (40 miles). Is it to be primarly an O&D airport or just for connections, or both?

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Thread starter):
A few days ago, Illinois governor Pat Quinn submitted a draft of the airport plan to the FAA and also requested the state borrow $71 million dollars more for land acquisition after already spending $30 million.

Not a very sound fiscal policy, considering that the state is broke, but then, Quinn IS a Democrat.
 

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-10-02 20:47:16 and read 8224 times.

Reminds me of the takeover of SWF by the PANYNJ. Brilliant move.  

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2012-10-02 20:58:09 and read 8195 times.

The thing that bothers me most is I just looked at the plan and they want to build (in their "future plans") a four runway airport that resembles the likes of ATL or LAX. Isn't the area already covered well enough by the existing airports? Why would we ever need something that big?
http://www.southsuburbanairport.com/...erPlan/reports/MP-Report-Plans.htm

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: cygnuschicago
Posted 2012-10-03 01:39:47 and read 7970 times.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Thread starter):
Illinois governor Pat Quinn submitted a draft of the airport plan to the FAA and also requested the state borrow $71 million dollars more for land acquisition after already spending $30 million.

So, after raising state income taxes by a staggering 66%, Quinn is now wasting it on a handout to some special interest groups who want a cornfields airport!

Peotone is such an ill-conceived idea, that it makes Thames Estuary airport look like a thoroughly sane concept by comparison.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: tonymctigue
Posted 2012-10-03 01:54:19 and read 7936 times.

May I just remind everyone of the recent discussion here about the similarily ill-concieved Ciudad Real Airport in Spain?

Ciudad Real-Spain's Ghost Airport (by okAY Jul 11 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Wikipedia article here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciudad_Real_Airport

When Ryanair can't make it work then what chances does anyone else stand. Need I say more other than this is not the only Ghost Airport in Spain.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-10-03 04:35:57 and read 7796 times.

Quoting cygnuschicago (Reply 5):
Quinn is now wasting it on a handout to some special interest groups who want a cornfields airport!

Who are the special interest groups and why do they want a cornfield airport?

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-10-03 06:20:29 and read 7641 times.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Thread starter):
the GYY runway extension underway,


  
That is great news and I'm glad to see the airport in the city of my birthplace finally expand and being put to proper use.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 1):
If you remember ORD was kind of in the middle of nowhere when it was first built.


That was long before the massive suburban sprawl of Chicago.




Not to mention, Petone's biggest advocate (Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr) has been absent for over 3 months and is now in a mental hospital and has been officially declared mentally ill and being treated for mental illness and intestinal issues. I'm not making this up and I don't want this to turn political.
The people of Peotone and their own Congressman Adam Kinzinger do not want this airport. It's old fashion pork-barrel spending and the only reason Pat Quinn and Jesse Jackson jr are advocating this is because Peotone is on the Illinois side of the boarder. If there were no state boundary between Gary and Chicago, all of the Chicago machine politicians would be in favor of expanding GYY. Luckily some politicos on the Illinois side understands this but Gov. Pat Quinn and Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. still want to play the old game.
The whole idea is rather crazy when you consider what is feasible and already available.

[Edited 2012-10-03 06:25:15]

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: LHCVG
Posted 2012-10-03 06:49:09 and read 7582 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 2):
Not much of a threat, if you ask me. WHAT airline, in their right mind, is going to want to move their operations to Peotone, with possibly already having ops at MDW and ORD or at least ORD? Just makes no sense, especially as far away as it is (40 miles). Is it to be primarly an O&D airport or just for connections, or both?

This is just like the plans about turning Newburgh/Stewart into the "new JFK" - it only works with a fantastic investment in infratstructure and access routes (particularly HSR to downtown) that is just impractical on any rational level. The idea itself is sound, but the investment required to make it appealing would be prohibitive beyond belief.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: jcwr56
Posted 2012-10-03 07:37:00 and read 7469 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Not to mention, Petone's biggest advocate (Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr) has been absent for over 3 months and is now in a mental hospital and has been officially declared mentally ill and being treated for mental illness and intestinal issues. I'm not making this up and I don't want this to turn political.
The people of Peotone and their own Congressman Adam Kinzinger do not want this airport. It's old fashion pork-barrel spending and the only reason Pat Quinn and Jesse Jackson jr are advocating this is because Peotone is on the Illinois side of the boarder. If there were no state boundary between Gary and Chicago, all of the Chicago machine politicians would be in favor of expanding GYY. Luckily some politicos on the Illinois side understands this but Gov. Pat Quinn and Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. still want to play the old game.
The whole idea is rather crazy when you consider what is feasible and already available.

Exactly, JJR sees this as a jobs creation program and not a spending issue. Also, what the State is looking at is a Illiana expressway close to this area. Hell, it's right on top of it, so I'm thinking this is another reason why the State is pushing this hard.

http://www.illianacorridor.org/

So Petone now becomes a regional trucking/rail/air facility. Who need passengers when freight is focused on.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: MountainFlyer
Posted 2012-10-03 07:42:18 and read 7441 times.

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 10):
Exactly, JJR sees this as a jobs creation program and not a spending issue.

Sounds a lot like the South China Mall or all the ghost cities in China. The government pushes for them to be built to keep construction workers in business and GDP up, but when completed, they sit and rot.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: NorthStarDC4M
Posted 2012-10-03 07:53:50 and read 7415 times.

If you want a very similar situation to Peotone, look up Toronto Pickering Airport. Been brewing for years, massive land buy outs in the 60s and 70s, and now it sits vacant waiting for the bulldozers that may never come...

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-10-03 08:21:58 and read 7347 times.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 9):
access routes (particularly HSR to downtown)
Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 10):
Also, what the State is looking at is a Illiana expressway close to this area.



Gary, Indiana (GYY) sits right next to the Indiana tollroad which leads directly to the Chicago Skyway bridge. Just a short jaunt up Stoney Island to Lake Shore Drive will get you to downtown Chicago in 20 minutes.
Also the Northern Indiana Rail (fmr. South Bend South Shore) is also next to GYY and gets you in to downtown Chicago in 30 minutes.

The I-57 leads you to the Dan Ryan which is a perpetual traffic jam and can take over 3 hours to get to downtown. It's 1 & a half hour without traffic.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2012-10-03 09:04:52 and read 7235 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 13):
Gary, Indiana (GYY) sits right next to the Indiana tollroad which leads directly to the Chicago Skyway bridge. Just a short jaunt up Stoney Island to Lake Shore Drive will get you to downtown Chicago in 20 minutes.

Gary is probably faster to get to than O'hare is from downtown. It once took me an hour to get from O'hare to downtown and then it was 45 minutes from downtown to Portage IN which is another 15 miles beyond Gary, using I-90.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-10-03 09:28:12 and read 7177 times.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 14):
Gary is probably faster to get to than O'hare is from downtown. It once took me an hour to get from O'hare to downtown and then it was 45 minutes from downtown to Portage IN which is another 15 miles beyond Gary, using I-90.

1 hour from O'hare to The Loop is the norm unless you come in very late at night.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 14):
Portage IN which is another 15 miles beyond Gary

I grew up just a few blocks west of County Line road in Miller (Miller Beach).
Our trips to O'hare even back in the 1970s took forever.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: milesrich
Posted 2012-10-03 09:39:26 and read 7142 times.

Look at who owns the land they want to buy. Democrats and Republicans in Illinois are equal opportunity offenders. Check out the land deals and road plans surrounding Dennis Hastert, a former school teacher who got elected to Congress, then became Speaker of the House, after Newt left until 2007. Came to politics as a working stiff and left as a multimillionaire after buying farmland and cheap prices and selling it to the State to build a highway. They even moved the highway so it would go right through Hastert's land. The SW suburbs are growing however, and 40 years from now, this might be a good idea. But with RFD, and GYY, and MKE, and the locations of the current higher income suburban areas and the city, Peotone's usefulness is a long long way off.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: usafret
Posted 2012-10-03 12:47:43 and read 6509 times.

There is another ghost airport in Illinois, Mid America (BLV) which costs our county millions each year in bond interest payments. I believe it cost about $78M to build about 10 years ago and has never had full time passenger service, just fits and starts. Allegiant Air is back with two round trips a week to Sanford, but that is temporary and just a small dent in the overall costs. With STL just a few miles away and 65% below capacity due to the TWA/AA drawdown, Mid America will never make a go of it. Enough with the ghost airports in Illinois.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: RamblinMan
Posted 2012-10-03 13:34:01 and read 6127 times.

As a north-side resident I'm just going to throw this out there... If I have to drive all the way out to g-ddamn f--king nowhere to catch a plane then I'm probably just going to drive to wherever I'm going. This would be another mirabel for sure...which we surely cannot afford.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2012-10-03 13:39:01 and read 6060 times.

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 18):
As a north-side resident I'm just going to throw this out there... If I have to drive all the way out to g-ddamn f--king nowhere to catch a plane then I'm probably just going to drive to wherever I'm going

I would say the same for us west suburban residents, there really is no easy way to get there, a lot of highway would have to be built to even make this make sense. I would almost draw a line at I-88 and say that everything north of that its just too far out of the way, the highway system takes you into the city, not to the south of it.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-10-03 13:51:30 and read 5939 times.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 19):
the highway system takes you into the city, not to the south of it.



The Tri-state tollway (I-294) is always a mess as well which is the shortest link to I-57 south to get you to Peotone.

If there needs to be any airport build in the Chicagoland area it should be to simply repave Meigs Field.
Problem solved.

Till then, Gary, Indiana is the best solution.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: ericaasen
Posted 2012-10-03 13:55:44 and read 5906 times.

Why won't this airport die? Simple huge construction companies are giving kickbacks to dirty politicians. Or maybe I should say campaign contributions. They know the only people to benefit from this airport will be the construction companies contracted to build it and the only jobs that will be created will be temporary. But this is an election year with a bad economy and lots of people out of work, so talking about adding jobs, even temporary ones, sounds really good to desperate people looking for anything to pay the bills.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: type-rated
Posted 2012-10-03 14:01:52 and read 5852 times.

If you want to hear moaning and groaning over airport locations just ask anyone who lived on the North Shore in the 50's when MDW was the airport in town. No freeways to take, just main boulevards all the way down there. I have an uncle who said it would take 2.5 hours to get to MDW from Lake Forest in light traffic!

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: PITrules
Posted 2012-10-03 14:05:36 and read 5828 times.

Chicago certainly doesn't need another airport today or in the near future. Having said that, I see nothing wrong with preserving land for future use in case the need arises in 50 years. In the mean time, it can sit there and continue to be used as is.. I assume mostly farming.

"Its to far from the city"
"It will never be needed"

These are the kinds of things that were commonly said in Munich and Denver before their new airports. Who's to say what course aviation will take in the decades ahead? Of course it is completely plausible that Chicago's current aviation system can once again become overwhelmed in the decades ahead.

The city and its suburbs will grow with or without the airport, making future land acquisition that much harder. Even at YMX the suburbs of Montreal are now only a few miles away from the airport.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 4):
The thing that bothers me most is I just looked at the plan and they want to build (in their "future plans") a four runway airport that resembles the likes of ATL or LAX.

Actually up to 6 runways if you look closely.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: ripcordd
Posted 2012-10-03 14:23:44 and read 5698 times.

Welcome to IL and Chicago politics...I suggest for an answer watch the show boss it will show you how things get done in this city and state. Its all about handing out contracts to their cronies and which is why the state is the worst or near bottom in money problems out of all 50 states. Ohh how i miss meigs

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-10-03 14:28:41 and read 5848 times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 23):
Of course it is completely plausible that Chicago's current aviation system can once again become overwhelmed in the decades ahead.

The city and its suburbs will grow with or without the airport, making future land acquisition that much harder. Even at YMX the suburbs of Montreal are now only a few miles away from the airport.




There is already an airport in the Chicagoland area that is under-utilized and being upgraded. It's GYY - Gary, Indiana which is MUCH closer to downtown Chicago. In fact, it's often quicker to get from Gary to downtown Chicago than it takes to get from Chicago O'hare to downtown Chicago.
The northwest Indiana suburbs of Chicago is growing and GYY can serve Chicago's south suburbs and southeast suburbs that spreads in to northwest Indiana. geting to ORD from these areas can take hours even though it's just 45 miles away.
Peotone wont make sense even 50 years from now.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: canyonblue17
Posted 2012-10-03 15:52:16 and read 5323 times.

According to Mapquest, from downtown Chicago it would take 25mins to ORD and 55mins to Peotone. The difference in cost of gas would be about $5 according to mapquest. If I bought a ticket at Peotone that saved me more than the $5 extra for gas (or even $10 for those who might think it would cost more) and it meant flying out of a small, new airport that doesn't come with the massive hassles of a giant airport like ORD.....why not? It wouldn't have to draw from the entire Chicago metro area to be feasible.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-10-03 16:28:31 and read 5187 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
If there were no state boundary between Gary and Chicago, all of the Chicago machine politicians would be in favor of expanding GYY.

It is understandable (kind of) that IL politicians want to keep the jobs in the state, Indianans aren't going to vote for them. However, if they ask for a cent fo Federal money to support this then I hope to God they refuse. Congress should be looking at the national interest, not a reverse backhander to some crooked contractors in Illinois.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: elbandgeek
Posted 2012-10-03 16:50:13 and read 5077 times.

Honestly, some of you people are really full of yourselves
The need for a third airport is not there right now, no one is arguing that.
But the attitude people take that the location is bad because apparently only rich people from the north side deserve a convenient airport is ridiculously offensive. I've lived in in the south suburbs my entire life and whenever the topic has come up with people in this area they are generally in favor of it. Let's face it, MDW is hemmed in and will never really be viable beyond what it is currently used for. If peotone were built, no one would be forcing anyone up north to use it. You still have ORD. When the airport was first proposed the largest amount of population growth in the metro area was south and west. Everything out to Joliet and even beyond has been filling in and GYY is even less useful for people in that direction than ORD. You can play the "they just want to dump an airport in a cornfield" line all you want but there is a reason they chose that location and just because the demand for it isn't there right now doesn't mean they shouldn't keep their options open for the future. That's why it "won't die"

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: AussieItaliano
Posted 2012-10-03 17:22:39 and read 4929 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 1):
Personally I think if they tried to build a Peotone airport, it'd become another Mirabel.

  

Quoting mayor (Reply 2):
WHAT airline, in their right mind, is going to want to move their operations to Peotone, with possibly already having ops at MDW and ORD or at least ORD?

Exactly. The only way to get airlines to serve Peotone would be to close ORD. Otherwise, no airline is going to want to have its Chicago operations so far away from the city while the competition flies from ORD and MDW.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 23):
"Its to far from the city"
"It will never be needed"

These are the kinds of things that were commonly said in Munich and Denver before their new airports.

And the big difference is that Riem and Stapleton were closed, so airlines and passengers had no choice but to use the new airports in MUC and DEN. YMX would have been successful too if YUL had been closed.

It's the same problem that we face here in London. Why would any airline want to move operations to an airport in the Thames Estuary from LHR when LHR is where the premium traffic wants to fly from? Unless LHR is shut down, Boris Island (named after our mayor) will be another Mirabel, as will Peotone.

I just hope that common sense prevails before the Illinois and UK taxpayers have the privilege of constructing two more white elephants.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2012-10-03 17:36:17 and read 4858 times.

It will make an excellent GA airport, and probably make up for a certain ex-mayor's destruction of CGX  

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: PITrules
Posted 2012-10-03 17:42:37 and read 4836 times.

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 29):
And the big difference is that Riem and Stapleton were closed, so airlines and passengers had no choice but to use the new airports in MUC and DEN. YMX would have been successful too if YUL had been closed.

It's the same problem that we face here in London. Why would any airline want to move operations to an airport in the Thames Estuary from LHR when LHR is where the premium traffic wants to fly from? Unless LHR is shut down, Boris Island (named after our mayor) will be another Mirabel, as will Peotone.

Chicago is a huge city, more so than Denver or Munich and can support multiple airports. I don't see it as an apples to apples comparison. However, lets entertain that thought for a moment. MDW cannot offer any serious growth potential. It might make a case to replace MDW with Peotone so that Chicago can have two major airports, each with abundant runway capacity. Peotone proposes to have runways on an east/west axis - the same as ORD, which allows for smooth regional airspace operations as opposed to several smaller regional airports with random runway layouts that do not compliment each other. That is the problem NYC faces.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: SFOHORIZON
Posted 2012-10-03 18:32:14 and read 4564 times.

Speculating about Gary is all fine and nice, but there is one giant barrier to the development of Gary's airport..... It's not in Illinois.

The main reason why Chicago politicians hate Peotone because it is not in Chicago and they can't control/own it.
But Peotone does garner the support of some of the Illinois politicians because it is in Illinois.

Gary Airport is not in Chicago. It is not in Illinois.

The reason why Chicago politicians and Illinois politicians will never develop Gary Airport or spend money on transportation infrastructure to Gary Airport is because it is not in Illinois.

Without the support of Chicago or Illinois State Government, I don't see Gary ever getting developed.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 13):
Gary, Indiana (GYY) sits right next to the Indiana tollroad which leads directly to the Chicago Skyway bridge. Just a short jaunt up Stoney Island to Lake Shore Drive will get you to downtown Chicago in 20 minutes.
Also the Northern Indiana Rail (fmr. South Bend South Shore) is also next to GYY and gets you in to downtown Chicago in 30 minutes.

The I-57 leads you to the Dan Ryan which is a perpetual traffic jam and can take over 3 hours to get to downtown. It's 1 & a half hour without traffic.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: ericaasen
Posted 2012-10-03 19:04:23 and read 4366 times.

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 28):
I've lived in in the south suburbs my entire life and whenever the topic has come up with people in this area they are generally in favor of it.

That may be, but it's kinda hard to fly out of an airport with no commercial service, just ask the people living east of St. Louis. This point cannot be made enough, no airline has any interest in operating at Peotone! If built this airport will become the second white elephant airport in this state alone! They will end up spending my tax dollars for no reason whatsoever! This state is broke enough, we don't need to be wasting money because some rich construction company gave a politician a sizable campaign contribution to their PAC.

And ORD is nowhere near capacity and has plenty of expansion room. The western entrance and terminal can always be built and if built I see it as the first concourse of a new midfield terminal complex replacing and expanding all of the current terminals that could be built. This city does not need three airports.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: milesrich
Posted 2012-10-03 20:30:01 and read 4139 times.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 30):

It will make an excellent GA airport, and probably make up for a certain ex-mayor's destruction of CGX  

Are you saying Peotone will make an excellent GA airport? Are you serious or teasing? It's not close to where business people want to go. The GA traffic at Meigs now has to use Midway. If they can't use Midway, there are Aurora,
Dupage, Lewis Universit in Will County, and Chicago Executive (Palwaukee), all of which are closer to the Loop than Peotone. .

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-10-03 21:35:09 and read 4080 times.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 30):
and probably make up for a certain ex-mayor's destruction of CGX



Gary, Indiana currently serves that purpose. That is why Boeing execs park their corporate jets at GYY.
It's only 20-25 minutes from their office downtown Chicago.
I do agree that Meigs Feild needs to be re-paved.

Quoting SFOHORIZON (Reply 32):
Gary Airport is not in Chicago. It is not in Illinois.


Yet Gary airport is closest to Chicago - only 5 miles from the state-line boarder.

Quoting SFOHORIZON (Reply 32):
Without the support of Chicago or Illinois State Government, I don't see Gary ever getting developed.



Gary has the support from Indiana State Government and GYY has been around well over 50 years and is already in the process of being upgraded.


When people outside of the Chicagoland metro area hear 'Indiana', they instantly think of rural farmlands with cornfields far away from any big city. Cities like Gary, Hammond, Whiting, East Chicago and Musnster are closer to Chicago than most suburbs on the Illinois side of the boarder.
Gary, Indiana is very much a part of the Chicagoland metro area and GYY being on the city's northwest boarder is just a stones through from downtown Chicago.
Also worth nothing is that GYY sits right next to a commuter rail and a toll-road (I-90) that NEVER has traffic and is connected to highway 912 which also never has traffic to connect with I-80 that serves all of the south suburbs of Chicago.
The only controversy in all of this the invisible state boundary between Gary and Chicago.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: Aesma
Posted 2012-10-04 06:15:20 and read 3870 times.

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 10):
So Petone now becomes a regional trucking/rail/air facility. Who need passengers when freight is focused on.

Well Mirabel has been mentioned. I just realized that it's now cargo only, I flew there in 2002 with Corsair. I'm not sure it's very successful as it is, they leased some parts to be a racing circuit !

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: HOMsAR
Posted 2012-10-04 06:47:34 and read 3823 times.

Peotone is simply way too far away to be useful to Chicago-bound traffic (I mean city, not region).

It also lacks something that would be humongously expensive to provide: direct transit access. This is important for a lot of travelers. Thousands of people per day ride the Blue Line and Orange Line to/from the airports, and the ride into downtown is fairly quick.

Not only that, but airport workers (everyone from the Starbucks clerk to rampers to FAs and pilots) depend on the Blue and Orange Lines to get to work. Presumably, if they found it easier to drive, they would. The only way to get to Peotone would be by automobile, unless we were to spend multi billions of dollars to build a rail link through primarily empty land to get there. That's not cost effective, and will cost millions of dollars in operating costs per year on its own.

Most tourists prefer to use the CTA rather than drive if they're visiting Chicago. For those not using CTA but not wanting their own car, a taxi ride to/from Midway or O'Hare can be $30-40 in light traffic. Peotone could double that cost easily.

Sure, there may be some market for folks who live down south, but is that really a dense enough market that it couldn't be served by existing airport infrastructure? Sure, 40-50 years from now, the market may grow. Or, 40-50 years from now, oil could be $200-300/barrel (or the inflation-adjusted equivalent) and nobody could afford to fly anyway.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: AussieItaliano
Posted 2012-10-04 06:50:55 and read 3824 times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 31):
Chicago is a huge city, more so than Denver or Munich and can support multiple airports. I don't see it as an apples to apples comparison. However, lets entertain that thought for a moment. MDW cannot offer any serious growth potential. It might make a case to replace MDW with Peotone so that Chicago can have two major airports, each with abundant runway capacity.

Sure, Chicago can support multiple airports, but can it support multiple large international airports when one of them is much closer to the city centre than the other? That's the problem here. EWR and JFK are roughly the same distance to the city centre of New York, and yes, they also serve different suburbs. However, I think that if EWR were twice the distance from Manhattan, and it took twice as long to get there, it wouldn't have the amount of traffic that it does now, and it also wouldn't likely have a UA hub there. The only reason why EWR and JFK complement each other as they do is because they are roughly equally convenient to Manhattan.

If Peotone were closer to Downtown Chicago, then it would be a good option for a second large airport in Chicagoland. But the problem is that it is much further than ORD, and it's highly unlikely that carriers would leave ORD for Peotone or add service to Peotone.

At best, Peotone could become a LTN or STN type airport, but it would never be able to take the premium traffic from ORD, because it's too far from the city centre. The only way that it could ever become a serious contender for Chicago's O & D traffic (and thereby convince airlines to move their main operations there) is to do what AND CURRENT: Denver - International (DEN / KDEN), USA - Colorado">DEN and AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC did, close the old International Airport. Otherwise, it becomes at best, a LTN or STN, or at worst, a YMX.

MDW works as Chicago's second airport because it's location is convenient to Downtown AND a good amount of Chicago residents. If its replacement is three times as far from Downtown, then it loses its advantage as an alternative to ORD.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: kordcj
Posted 2012-10-04 07:46:45 and read 3775 times.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought sometime ago in the mid 90s both Gary and Chicago formed some sort of regional airport authority (something like what NY/NJ has) that basically put ORD, MDW, CGX and GYY under the control of that authority. It was done primarily to prevent the state of IL from taking over CGX or stopping the expansion of ORD. I remember then gov Ryan (?) throwing a big stink about it. Not sure if it is still active but I do believe that the city of Chicago supports an expanded GYY over Peotone while the state of IL would rather take over control of the airports so that the capacity could be more spread between Peotone, MDW, and ORD. I remember writing a letter to Jesse Jackson Jr blasting his statements about why ORD shouldn't be expanded in favor of the new airport. We had quite an exchange via email about ORD. Only time I ever got involved in local politics haha.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-10-04 08:53:32 and read 3687 times.

Jesse Jackson Jr would have so much more credibility if he proposed demolishing large abandoned tracts of land in his district on the south side of Chicago. Just take a look at all of the abandoned factories and neighborhoods near the Ford plant around Torrance Ave and the Calumet expressway. Much of that part of Chicago is forgotten about and is a playground for gang activity. He should propose redeveloping that area since the land is very cheap and is in perfect proximity to downtown, GYY and easy access to Midway.
That is an area than can benefit from redevelopment, maybe no need for an airport but that is what this Congressman should do.

Quoting kordcj (Reply 39):
I remember writing a letter to Jesse Jackson Jr blasting his statements about why ORD shouldn't be expanded in favor of the new airport. We had quite an exchange via email about ORD. Only time I ever got involved in local politics haha.



That is an issue that will get him wound up. A cousin of mine is a close friend of Congressman Jessie Jackson Jr and they went to high school together back in the early 80s. I mentioned the issue to my cousin several years ago and he said it's not worth bringing the issue up to him. He is very stubborn about the Peotone airport idea and he clings to this idea the more people criticize him over it. The people of his district don't understand why he keeps running his mouth about this airport idea and it's not even in his district.

While I wish him a safe recovery from his medical condition, the mental diagnosis and intestinal diagnosis kind of says it all...

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: ER757
Posted 2012-10-04 08:58:16 and read 3672 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Gov. Pat Quinn and Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. still want to play the old game.

They're politicians from Illinois - need any more be said?  
I grew up there, I know the way Chicago and Illinois politics work. Heck, I am pretty sure my already dead grandfather voted for Kennedy in 1960 (a east twice). The 3rd airport discussion was already old when I left the area over 20 years ago.

This airport idea make ZERO sense. As others have stated, what airline that's already operating out of ORD or MDW is going to set up shop in Peotone?! And do we really need to build a new airport there to attract one or two new or regional carriers? I think not.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: tjwgrr
Posted 2012-10-04 09:52:47 and read 3610 times.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 41):
This airport idea make ZERO sense. As others have stated, what airline that's already operating out of ORD or MDW is going to set up shop in Peotone?! And do we really need to build a new airport there to attract one or two new or regional carriers? I think not.


Add to the whole mix that there are $1.1B in upgrades proposed for MDW:

Major Upgrades May Be Coming To MDW (by KarlB737 Sep 22 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: BravoGolf
Posted 2012-10-04 11:33:09 and read 3523 times.

Quoting kordcj (Reply 39):
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought sometime ago in the mid 90s both Gary and Chicago formed some sort of regional airport authority (something like what NY/NJ has) that basically put ORD, MDW, CGX and GYY under the control of that authority. It was done primarily to prevent the state of IL from taking over CGX or stopping the expansion of ORD. I remember then gov Ryan (?) throwing a big stink about it. Not sure if it is still active but I do believe that the city of Chicago supports an expanded GYY over Peotone while the state of IL would rather take over control of the airports so that the capacity could be more spread between Peotone, MDW, and ORD

You are correct. The Chicago Gary Regional Airport Authority formed April 15, 1995 and active to the present.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: kordcj
Posted 2012-10-04 12:47:06 and read 3429 times.

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 43):
You are correct. The Chicago Gary Regional Airport Authority formed April 15, 1995 and active to the present.

Ahh yes, Mayor Daley's crafty plan to prevent the takeover of ORD. I remember whoever the governor of IL was at the time being practically red from anger during a press conference about that pact. Exactly how does the regional authority work as it doesn't seem like it is as involved as the port authority of NY/NJ over governing any of the airports? I don't think I've ever read a press release from the Chicago DoA about Gary's Airport. Considering that ORD is nowhere near the numbers it saw at its peak back in the mid 2000s, I think Peotone is dead in the water as it should be. Aside from DL, who else serves both ORD and MDW?

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: SurfandSnow
Posted 2012-10-04 13:27:39 and read 3358 times.

The Peotone Airport seems to be a component of a bigger infrastructure development in that area. My grandma lives in Beecher, IL (just a few miles east of the Peotone Airport site) and has been told that they are proposing a major highway "Illiana Expressway" through her land. This will serve as an alternate to the existing 294 option, which apparently gets very congested, running from I-57 in Illinois to I-65 in Indiana. The new highway would almost certainly serve the new airport, which the Beecher locals say may be funded by China as a cargo/logistics hub given the lack of airline support. This could also be a way for the local governments/state to gentrify the blighted nearby south suburbs like University Park and Matteson, and draw further development to an otherwise very rural Will County.

From a commercial airline pax perspective, this airport makes no sense whatsoever. The city has heavily invested in both MDW and ORD, both of which are much closer to the vast majority of the metropolitan area businesses and population. Given that all incumbent expansions and new entrants have been easily accommodated at these airports in recent years, there is no need for yet another airport. But if we are looking from a cargo/logistics perspective, we realize that MDW and ORD are extremely busy in terms of operations, and vehicular traffic in and out of these airports is notorious. Time sensitive cargo could be frequently delayed on the aviation side and/or the ground transportation side. An easy in, easy out option could be just what these operators want.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: BravoGolf
Posted 2012-10-04 13:56:23 and read 3312 times.

Quoting kordcj (Reply 44):
Exactly how does the regional authority work as it doesn't seem like it is as involved as the port authority of NY/NJ over governing any of the airports?

The CGRAA does not get involved in the day to day operations of the three airports. Its 12 member board, 6 from Indiana, 6 from Illinois, have oversight on the capital improvements at the three airports.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: BlueLine
Posted 2012-10-04 14:09:19 and read 3300 times.

What airlines would want to move or start ops at Peotone? The only one I can think of is NK, and that's if they get a sweet deal on landing fees and facility leases from the airport authorities. AA and UA won't start any high O&D routes there as there isn't a big issue with space or any slots to deal with at ORD. Maybe, just maybe, WN will have a few flights there, but I don't know how close they are running to maximum capacity at MDW. No foreign carrier will move there or enter the Chicago market there. Maybe the people involved with this project think they can woo EK and SQ there?

Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 37):
It also lacks something that would be humongously expensive to provide: direct transit access. This is important for a lot of travelers. Thousands of people per day ride the Blue Line and Orange Line to/from the airports, and the ride into downtown is fairly quick.

Not only that, but airport workers (everyone from the Starbucks clerk to rampers to FAs and pilots) depend on the Blue and Orange Lines to get to work. Presumably, if they found it easier to drive, they would.

You can put me in the commuting employee camp. I had the use of a car for a week, and while I saved a little bit of time driving to ORD in the wee hours of the morning, the commute back to Logan Square took 45 minutes longer compared to taking the Blue Line. Not to mention that I can be half asleep on the train. Not such a good idea while driving. For passengers living in the city, why deal with traffic and the cost of parking/cab fare when you can shell out $5 and take the train?

Quoting kordcj (Reply 44):
Aside from DL, who else serves both ORD and MDW?

Technically F9, but their ORD service is the replacement for USA 3000's Apple Vacations charters.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-10-04 21:24:10 and read 3084 times.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 16):
Dennis Hastert, a former school teacher who got elected to Congress, then became Speaker of the House, after Newt left until 2007.

Hey, go easy on ol' Denny.....he was my social studies teacher in high school in '66.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):

There is already an airport in the Chicagoland area that is under-utilized and being upgraded. It's GYY - Gary, Indiana which is MUCH closer to downtown Chicago. In fact, it's often quicker to get from Gary to downtown Chicago than it takes to get from Chicago O'hare to downtown Chicago.
The northwest Indiana suburbs of Chicago is growing and GYY can serve Chicago's south suburbs and southeast suburbs that spreads in to northwest Indiana. geting to ORD from these areas can take hours even though it's just 45 miles away.
Peotone wont make sense even 50 years from now.

The way I see it, the whole problem with GYY is that it ISN'T in Illinois, therefore any fees or taxes generated by that airport would go into Indiana's coffers and not Illinois' and what Illinois politician is going to support that?

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 28):
You can play the "they just want to dump an airport in a cornfield" line all you want but there is a reason they chose that location

Ok, what IS the reason?

Quoting SFOHORIZON (Reply 32):
Speculating about Gary is all fine and nice, but there is one giant barrier to the development of Gary's airport..... It's not in Illinois.

The main reason why Chicago politicians hate Peotone because it is not in Chicago and they can't control/own it.
But Peotone does garner the support of some of the Illinois politicians because it is in Illinois.

Gary Airport is not in Chicago. It is not in Illinois.

The reason why Chicago politicians and Illinois politicians will never develop Gary Airport or spend money on transportation infrastructure to Gary Airport is because it is not in Illinois.

Without the support of Chicago or Illinois State Government, I don't see Gary ever getting developed.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
Speculating about Gary is all fine and nice, but there is one giant barrier to the development of Gary's airport..... It's not in Illinois.

The main reason why Chicago politicians hate Peotone because it is not in Chicago and they can't control/own it.
But Peotone does garner the support of some of the Illinois politicians because it is in Illinois.

Gary Airport is not in Chicago. It is not in Illinois.

The reason why Chicago politicians and Illinois politicians will never develop Gary Airport or spend money on transportation infrastructure to Gary Airport is because it is not in Illinois.

Without the support of Chicago or Illinois State Government, I don't see Gary ever getting developed.

                    


Exactly

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-10-05 00:50:41 and read 2976 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 48):
The way I see it, the whole problem with GYY is that it ISN'T in Illinois



If the state boundary was parallel with the time zone boundary - going eastward and encompassing the northwest Indiana 'region', cities like Gary probably would be in a lot better shape economically.
Then again, people in Illinois wouldn't have anywhere to go to buy fireworks, cheap cigarettes and cheaper gas.  

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: kngkyle
Posted 2012-10-05 03:13:47 and read 2908 times.

I think it makes sense to buy the land and plan for the future. However, it does not make sense to build the airport at this time.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: milesrich
Posted 2012-10-06 14:44:51 and read 2570 times.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 49):
If the state boundary was parallel with the time zone boundary - going eastward and encompassing the northwest Indiana 'region', cities like Gary probably would be in a lot better shape economically.
Then again, people in Illinois wouldn't have anywhere to go to buy fireworks, cheap cigarettes and cheaper gas.  

Gary is an old steel town that had urban problems going back to the early 60's. White flight to south, to suburbs Munster and Crowne Point, left a dying city, similar to what happened to Chicago's West Side. Unlike where the white ethnics stayed in Chicago, the Poles on the NW side, and in certain sections of the south side, Gary was abandoned, and there was nothing like the Loop or Lake Shore Drive to keep at least part of the city from decaying as Gary's Lakefront was almost totally industrial. Chicago's Gold Coast and many other areas to the North and West in the city either never decayed or were regentified by the Yuppies of the baby boomer generation. Therefore, the vast majority of frequent flyers who lived in Chicagoland but did not live downtown, were as close to ORD as MDW. Additionally, an expressway to ORD opened in 1962, while an expressway to Midway, or that took you close to it, I-55, did not open until a few years later, and by that time, Midway had been almost abandoned. Until the new terminal at Midway and the arrival of WN, the attempts to rebuild Midway were largely unsuccessful. Just like most northsiders are not White Sox fans, they aren't going to drive to Gary, IN to catch an airplane if they don't have to.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-10-07 05:48:50 and read 2322 times.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 51):

Many of those well to do 'Yuppie's have their beach home in Gary - Miller Beach.
While most of Gary's lakfront is industrial, the far east part of Gary has nice beaches and dunes. Infact they're nicer than the beaches on the Chicago northside.
GYY may not be of any use to the northside yuppies but it would be very beneficial to those in the suburbs of Munster, Crowne Point, Merreville and other surrounding suburbs. Getting to ORD is a huge headache from these areas.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: milesrich
Posted 2012-10-07 06:08:44 and read 2285 times.

If Lake County, Indiana could support a commercial airport, they would have one. Gary has had service before, and obviously, it was not profitable.

Topic: RE: Why Won't The Peotone Airport Die?
Username: Superfly
Posted 2012-10-07 07:14:28 and read 2225 times.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 53):
If Lake County, Indiana could support a commercial airport, they would have one. Gary has had service before, and obviously, it was not profitable.


Only small potatoes, fly by night carriers such as Hooters Air and Pan Am3 served GYY.
JetBlue considered GYY but Daly made sure that didn't happen.


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