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Topic: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: nomorerjs
Posted 2012-10-02 16:54:45 and read 18144 times.

What are the largest metro areas without EK service?

MEX and ORD come to mind as alpha cities, but I'm sure there are more.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-10-02 17:07:50 and read 18141 times.

Its been stated before but DTW

Stats per the Arab American Institute:

-About 94% of Arab Americans live in metropolitan areas. Los Angeles, Detroit, New York/NJ, Chicago and Washington, D.C., are the top five metropolitan areas of Arab American concentration

-There are almost as many Iraqis living in Michigan as there are living in California, even though California is 3.5% larger than Michigan

Top Ten States by Arab American Population
1. California - 272,485

2. Michigan - 191,607

3. New York - 149,627

4. Florida - 100,627

5. Texas - 91,568

6. New Jersey - 85,956

7. Illinois - 85,465

8. Ohio - 65,813

9. Massachusetts - 65,150

10. Pennsylvania - 60,870

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: reality
Posted 2012-10-02 17:15:48 and read 18084 times.

Well.........here's a list of the 50 largest metro area, according to Wikipedia. There must be quite a few that EK doesn't fly to.

Tokyo–Yokohama (Keihin)[2]

Jakarta (Jabodetabek)[3]

Seoul–Incheon (Sudogwon)[4]

Delhi[5]

Manila (Metro Manila)[6]

Shanghai[7]

New York[8]

São Paulo[9]

Mexico City (Valley of Mexico)[10]

Cairo[11]

Beijing[12]

Osaka–Kobe–Kyoto (Keihanshin)[13]

Mumbai (Bombay)[14]

Guangzhou (Canton)–Foshan (Guangfo)[15]

Moscow[16]

Dhaka[17]

Los Angeles[18]

Kolkata (Calcutta)

Karachi[19]

Buenos Aires[20]

Istanbul (Constantinople)

Rio de Janeiro

Shenzhen[15]

Lagos[21]

Paris

Nagoya (Chūkyō)[22]

Lima

Chicago[23]

Kinshasa[24]

Tianjin[25]

Chennai (Madras)

Bogotá

Bengaluru (Bangalore)

London[26]

Taipei[27]

Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon)

Dongguan[15]

Hyderabad

Chengdu

Lahore

Johannesburg–East Rand[28]

Tehran[29]

Essen (Ruhr)–Düsseldorf[30]

Bangkok

Hong Kong[15]

Wuhan

Ahmedabad

Chongqing[31]

Baghdad

Hangzhou[7]

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: qf002
Posted 2012-10-02 17:19:56 and read 18046 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 1):

I think they means in terms of general population...

Using Wikipedia's list of the worlds largest cities it would indeed be MEX.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: g500
Posted 2012-10-02 17:25:15 and read 17994 times.

Quoting nomorerjs (Thread starter):
MEX and ORD come to mind as alpha cities, but I'm sure there are more

Yes Mexico City would be the largest metro area without EK... if it wasn't for MEX's altitude, if Emirates could do MEX-DXB non-stop, I'd like to think they'd be flying there right now

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2012-10-02 17:25:38 and read 17993 times.

Quoting reality (Reply 2):
There must be quite a few that EK doesn't fly to.

That list is actually pretty well covered. EK does not fly to

Mexico City (Valley of Mexico)
Shenzhen
Nagoya (Chūkyō)
Lima
Kinshasa
Tianjin
Bogotá
Taipei
Dongguan
Chengdu
Wuhan
Chongqing
Hangzhou

Kinshasa and Taipei are currently pretty high on EK's priority list for new service. I would also at some point expect further services into Central and South America with MEX, BOG and LIM all possibilities, potentially via Europe. I am sure that EK is also looking at additional China service, as it now serves only PEK PVG and CAN on the mainland. Nagoya was previously served but was abandoned.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: reality
Posted 2012-10-02 17:27:47 and read 17956 times.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 3):
I think they means in terms of general population...

Using Wikipedia's list of the worlds largest cities it would indeed be MEX.

Actually the op said largest metro areas (which makes sense), which is why I used this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_by_population

This includes more than just the largest 20.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: yegbey01
Posted 2012-10-02 17:35:27 and read 17879 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 1):
Its been stated before but DTW

Stats per the Arab American Institute:

-About 94% of Arab Americans live in metropolitan areas. Los Angeles, Detroit, New York/NJ, Chicago and Washington, D.C., are the top five metropolitan areas of Arab American concentration

-There are almost as many Iraqis living in Michigan as there are living in California, even though California is 3.5% larger than Michigan

Top Ten States by Arab American Population
1. California - 272,485

2. Michigan - 191,607

3. New York - 149,627

4. Florida - 100,627

5. Texas - 91,568

6. New Jersey - 85,956

7. Illinois - 85,465

8. Ohio - 65,813

9. Massachusetts - 65,150

10. Pennsylvania - 60,870

That is not relevant at all. Most Arabs will not fly EK, because of significant backtracking. Besides most Arabs are likely from Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, etc....Why would they fly to DXB to connect.

EK depends heavily on Indian subcontinent traffic not the Middle East and North Africa for pax coming from the US.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: aerorobnz
Posted 2012-10-02 17:59:00 and read 17697 times.

There are plenty..

Latin America

BOG 9.6mill est.
LIM 9.3
SCL 5.9m
CNF 5.4 Mil
CCS 4.1mil


also Guadalajara, Monterrey, Porto Alegre,Recife, Salvador, Medellin and plenty of others in Latin America all have between 3mill & 4.4mill. which puts them at a size that rivals SEA/MSP at the bottom end, and SFO/DTW/PHX at the upper end...

Asia
Shenzhen 9.4
Nagoya 8.3

Wuhan, Yianjin, Chonqing,Shenyang all above 6.4 million Metro

Africa
FIH springs to mind. There are many others.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-10-02 18:05:19 and read 17673 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
Yes Mexico City would be the largest metro area without EK... if it wasn't for MEX's altitude, if Emirates could do MEX-DXB non-stop, I'd like to think they'd be flying there right now

I should think their 777-200LRs could do it with a fair payload.

[Edited 2012-10-02 18:07:18]

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: spiritair97
Posted 2012-10-02 18:12:08 and read 17625 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 1):

Top Ten States by Arab American Population
1. California - 272,485
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 1):
3. New York - 149,627
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 1):
6. New Jersey - 85,956

I'm surprised that California doesn't have more EK Arab service, being that it was such a large population. Even New York (and kind of New Jersey) has:

2x daily a388s from EK
1x daily a340-5/600 from EY
5x weekly a340-200 from RJ
1x daily 772/a343 from KU
1x daily 763 from AT
1x daily 77W from MS
3(?)x weekly from PK
5x weekly SV
1x daily 77W from QR
2x daily 77W and 1x daily a333 from TK

California gets a lot less (albeit some) of that.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2012-10-02 18:36:33 and read 17495 times.

Id also add ATL. 5.1 million people connected to the SE usa.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2012-10-02 18:42:39 and read 17450 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
I should think their 777-200LRs could do it with a fair payload.

probably not.

They would be better off sending a 380....DXB-BCN-MEX (assumign traffic rights) or perhaps use a triangle like DXB-MEX-CUN-DXB

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: yegbey01
Posted 2012-10-02 18:52:19 and read 17389 times.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 10):
I'm surprised that California doesn't have more EK Arab service, being that it was such a large population. Even New York (and kind of New Jersey) has:

2x daily a388s from EK
1x daily a340-5/600 from EY
5x weekly a340-200 from RJ
1x daily 772/a343 from KU
1x daily 763 from AT
1x daily 77W from MS
3(?)x weekly from PK
5x weekly SV
1x daily 77W from QR
2x daily 77W and 1x daily a333 from TK

California gets a lot less (albeit some) of that.

TK serves a large Turkish community in the US and a growing tourism business from North America. Their service does not depend on the Arab community.

AT does not compete with EK. Two different regions in the world.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-10-02 18:59:07 and read 17356 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
I should think their 777-200LRs could do it with a fair payload.
Quoting yellowtail (Reply 12):
probably not.

They certainly have the legs. DXB-MEX is about 700nm farther than DXB-IAH and EK's 777-200LRs can lift a full payload between DXB and IAH. Now yes, MEX is 2200m higher than IAH, but still, I can't see that crippling the payload on the outbound.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-10-02 19:13:23 and read 17285 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):

They certainly have the legs. DXB-MEX is about 700nm farther than DXB-IAH and EK's 777-200LRs can lift a full payload between DXB and IAH. Now yes, MEX is 2200m higher than IAH, but still, I can't see that crippling the payload on the outbound.

I'd be very surprised. MEX-DXB is longer than JNB-ATL and as I understand it that is right at the limit of the 77L, and MEX is 600m higher. Ok it is eastbound but still.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-10-02 19:14:45 and read 17273 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 1):
8. Ohio - 65,813

Yeah EK will never fly to any city in Ohio. Royal Jordinian does a good service to DTW IIRC

Quoting reality (Reply 2):
Tokyo–Yokohama (Keihin)[2]

Not many arabians in this area though. EK serves them pretty well though as far as I know.

(edited for wrong airport)

[Edited 2012-10-02 20:01:22]

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: thomasphoto60
Posted 2012-10-02 19:22:09 and read 17227 times.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 10):
3(?)x weekly from PK
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 10):
2x daily 77W and 1x daily a333 from TK

When did Pakistan and Turkey become Arab nations

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 16):
Royal Jordinian does a good service to DFW IIRC

I think you are confusing RJ with EK, AFAIK, RJ does not service DFW.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-10-02 19:22:46 and read 17225 times.

EK really should consider some destinations in West China since EY has CTU and QR has CKG!

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-10-02 19:26:43 and read 17203 times.

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 17):
I think you are confusing RJ with EK, AFAIK, RJ does not service DFW.

EK doesn't serve DTW. RJ Serves through the North Terminal. Why, I don't know, maybe because of the Arabian population in Detroit. I think QR or ET on the 787/A350 could make this route work fine.

Check it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Metropolitan_Wayne_County_Airport

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-10-02 19:30:39 and read 17187 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 15):
I'd be very surprised. MEX-DXB is longer than JNB-ATL and as I understand it that is right at the limit of the 77L, and MEX is 600m higher. Ok it is eastbound but still.

A 777-200LR can do ATL-JNB (eastbound) at or near MZFW, which would allow for the Maximum Structural Payload (65t).

EK's 777-200LRs can lift 45t of payload and 134t of fuel at MTOW, which is about what EK's birds tank for DXB-LAX (which is ~500nm shorter than MEX). So even if they need to tank another 5t for MEX (to account for winds, alternates, etc.), that's still a 40t payload.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: thomasphoto60
Posted 2012-10-02 19:30:55 and read 17167 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):

EK doesn't serve DTW. RJ Serves through the North Terminal. Why, I don't know, maybe because of the Arabian population in Detroit. I think QR or ET on the 787/A350 could make this route work fine.

Well you made a typo as DFW not DTW was mentioned in your original post.

[Edited 2012-10-02 19:31:51]

[Edited 2012-10-02 19:32:28]

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: timpdx
Posted 2012-10-02 19:39:49 and read 17113 times.

California has a very large and pretty well to do Indian population and yet no airline has ever served India direct out of LAX or SFO either(Jet Airways was via PVG). And it really is the distance that keeps more Gulf/ME carriers from offering direct service to California to Cairo, Amman, Doha or Abu Dhabi. Without the premium pax, I am sure Emirates would not be serving California either. And with EK sucking up all the premium pax, there really is no reason for another airline to serve the India or Gulf traffic directly.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: incitatus
Posted 2012-10-02 19:42:25 and read 17100 times.

When it comes to size of the economy, Chicago, Nagoya, Atlanta, Philadelphia and Boston are top-20 gross metropolitan product in the world and EK is not there.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: spiritair97
Posted 2012-10-02 20:00:02 and read 17018 times.

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 17):
When did Pakistan and Turkey become Arab nations

I threw them in as they probably have good connections and help serve the area via their own respective hubs.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: AMX748
Posted 2012-10-02 20:01:33 and read 17834 times.

During so many years the fact of a Mexican airline flying to Japan or China was regarded as a dream never to be achieved. Now there is AMX flying to NRT and PVG. I'd like the Chinese to soon come with their very heavies into the country, and maybe dreaming to see Air China some time in the future coming with an A380. Currently there are a lot of beautiful Chinese women and weddings between Mexicans and Chinese are becoming less exotic than just 5 years ago.

Regarding Emirates, the U.A.E. are becoming slowly, but unduobtedly, one of the most important economic and touristic destinations in the world. At some point in the medium and long term, EK will be present in MEX. It's only a matter of time, and just the time and the involvement of Mexico with the UAE will determine which type of aircraft should be used. UAE has already hired few hundreds of high skilled, talented Mexicans. New generations with a poor expectations in Mexico are looking to go there. Maybe in a decade or so the cultural, political, business and familiar ties could be so strong to justify a flight of EK to MEX. IMHO Ohh, and please bear in mind that an increased gross weight version, particularly with the A380 is under development and the hot of MEX, which normally is in the lower 20°C (mid 70° F) disappears in the late hours of the night and early hours of the morning. And the flight doesn't need to be direct. A stop in Rome, a city not served by Mexican airlines, but with nice ties due to tourism and religion could play an extra benefit

In the short term, many "garbage" in the Civil Aeronautics Direction of the country must be "burned", speaking in the political context. For example, ANZ was interested in flying AKL-ACA-JFK few years ago. It was stopped because no mexican airline currently flies to New Zealand. The very true is that, with a 77W, ANZ could offer a much better product connecting directly ACA with JFK, "damaging the interests" of the local ones with a more mediocre service, but a fare most expensive than flying from NYC to Europe. Only, and only then, the fifth liberties could be a reality in Mexico, stimulating real competence so the best will prevail. One of the worst things I've seen in my life is how Mexicana was put away from business. With such way of thinking aviation business, there is a huge wall stopping the true globalization of mexican aviation.

[Edited 2012-10-02 20:10:33]

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-10-02 20:01:50 and read 17593 times.

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 21):
Well you made a typo as DFW not DTW was mentioned in your original post.


Ah my apologies, corrected. The F and T keys are too close to each other.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: thomasphoto60
Posted 2012-10-02 20:41:28 and read 17757 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26):
Ah my apologies, corrected. The F and T keys are too close to each other.

Apologies not needed, I make typos all the time.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: 96adrian
Posted 2012-10-03 00:44:36 and read 16344 times.

What about OSL, ARN and HEL?

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Thijs1984
Posted 2012-10-03 00:51:13 and read 16372 times.

The Rotterdam - The Hague Metro area ( around 5 million, and one of the most densely populated parts of Europe) in the Netherlands is also not directly served by EK.

The 1 daily A380 to AMS can do the trick for the time being. However CEO Clark mentioned 2 years ago that he would investigate the possibilities to fly to Rotterdam - The Hague airport. However nothing has materialized since then.
An 4 up to six 6 weekly flight with a A330 could easily be filled. And A330's could operate a sector to DXB out of RTM.

[Edited 2012-10-03 01:33:26]

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: CityAirline
Posted 2012-10-03 02:14:10 and read 15795 times.

Quoting 96adrian (Reply 28):

What about OSL, ARN and HEL?


Are you joking? The topic was regarding the largest Metro areas of the world not served by EK. Little villages like Oslo, Stockholm and Helsinki hardly fits in that category with their populations of one, two and one million people.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: cipango
Posted 2012-10-03 03:57:23 and read 14834 times.

EK Served Nagoya until a few years ago. Not too sure of the reasons why they stopped flying?

I think Taiwan is high on the list and EK will probably be flying there within the next 2 years.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-10-03 05:49:28 and read 13732 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
A 777-200LR can do ATL-JNB (eastbound) at or near MZFW, which would allow for the Maximum Structural Payload (65t).

EK's 777-200LRs can lift 45t of payload and 134t of fuel at MTOW, which is about what EK's birds tank for DXB-LAX (which is ~500nm shorter than MEX). So even if they need to tank another 5t for MEX (to account for winds, alternates, etc.), that's still a 40t payload.

I don't disagree but the issue is not DXB-MEX (or ATL-JNB). The issue is MEX-DXB (and JNB-ATL), due to the altitude at the departing airport.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: incitatus
Posted 2012-10-03 06:28:45 and read 13393 times.

Quoting Thijs1984 (Reply 29):
The Rotterdam - The Hague Metro area ( around 5 million, and one of the most densely populated parts of Europe) in the Netherlands is also not directly served by EK.

The 1 daily A380 to AMS can do the trick for the time being. However CEO Clark mentioned 2 years ago that he would investigate the possibilities to fly to Rotterdam - The Hague airport. However nothing has materialized since then.
An 4 up to six 6 weekly flight with a A330 could easily be filled. And A330's could operate a sector to DXB out of RTM.

I regard the whole of the Netherlands as a single metro area when it comes to air travel. The distance between Rotterdam Airport and Schiphol is about the same as Newark to JFK.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2012-10-03 06:57:53 and read 13070 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 32):
I don't disagree but the issue is not DXB-MEX (or ATL-JNB). The issue is MEX-DXB (and JNB-ATL), due to the altitude at the departing airport.

If MEX Was at sea level...the 77L could do it.....but the heat and the altitude, even late at night will surely require a weight penalty..

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-10-03 07:13:20 and read 12891 times.

Miami Florida needs Emirates. Miami also would allow EK access to all north Latin America and the caribean. No other city in the US except perhaps for Boston has no Middle East connection.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-10-03 07:32:34 and read 12628 times.

EK will expand. While not mentioned here, I expect more expansion to SE Asia in 2013. e.g., Indonesia's larger secondary cities. Perhaps Bali too. However, the biggest hole in their network is in China. Some coastal, some Western cities.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 5):
Dongguan
Chengdu
Wuhan
Chongqing
Hangzhou
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 5):
I am sure that EK is also looking at additional China service, as it now serves only PEK PVG and CAN on the mainland.

What rights does EK have to fly to China right now? I would add Shenzhen, Kunming, and Xi'an to that list too. IMHO, it is a question of when (and the bilateral rights), not if China will see more EK service.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 5):
Nagoya was previously served but was abandoned.

If the Japanese economy recovers, I would think they would *try* for service there. But not at the cost of Tokyo frequency/rights. Again, a question of bilateral rights. (Does anyone know?)

Quoting incitatus (Reply 23):
When it comes to size of the economy, Chicago, Nagoya, Atlanta, Philadelphia and Boston are top-20 gross metropolitan product in the world and EK is not there.

EK will eventually go to some portion of those cities. But I would see MIA before BOS.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: vinniewinnie
Posted 2012-10-03 08:48:03 and read 11798 times.

Quoting Thijs1984 (Reply 29):

The Rotterdam - The Hague Metro area ( around 5 million, and one of the most densely populated parts of Europe) in the Netherlands is also not directly served by EK.

Then you might as well serve BRU. Granted you lose a bit of high yield port traffic but you gain a whole country.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 33):
I regard the whole of the Netherlands as a single metro area when it comes to air travel. The distance between Rotterdam Airport and Schiphol is about the same as Newark to JFK.

Not true! You'd be surprised how habits regarding travel differ between Europe and the rest of the world. 50 KM is already considered far in most of Europe. Given that the biggest inconvenience in air travel is access time, you would be surprised. It does happen but you will find that not many people will cross borders country borders to travel long distances. Unreliability caused by congestion, fuel prices and expensive Airport Parking mean that people will pay a premium to fly out of their local airports.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Thijs1984
Posted 2012-10-03 12:58:09 and read 9402 times.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 33):
I regard the whole of the Netherlands as a single metro area when it comes to air travel. The distance between Rotterdam Airport and Schiphol is about the same as Newark to JFK.

Metro area's of that size are usually served by at least two or more airports  . That would also justify a service of Emirates.
AMS-RTM is alsmost the double distance of JFK-EWR

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 37):
Then you might as well serve BRU. Granted you lose a bit of high yield port traffic but you gain a whole country.

they should serve both 
Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 37):
Not true! You'd be surprised how habits regarding travel differ between Europe and the rest of the world. 50 KM is already considered far in most of Europe. Given that the biggest inconvenience in air travel is access time, you would be surprised. It does happen but you will find that not many people will cross borders country borders to travel long distances. Unreliability caused by congestion, fuel prices and expensive Airport Parking mean that people will pay a premium to fly out of their local airports

True. some people make exceptions for Low costs fights. but competition of LCC is already quite severe and you won't need to travel far from home to find a LCC that flies to a lot of popular destinations.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-10-03 13:24:45 and read 9113 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
Yes Mexico City would be the largest metro area without EK... if it wasn't for MEX's altitude, if Emirates could do MEX-DXB non-stop, I'd like to think they'd be flying there right now

I should think their 777-200LRs could do it with a fair payload.

Doubt it. MEX-DXB is about 500 nm further than SFO-DXB and about 500 miles shorter than EWR-SIN, the world's longest nonstop route. And those points are all at sea level, not 7300 feet above.

And what type of traffic would fill flights on that route? I can't see it. Is there a lot of investment by, for example, Chinese companies in Mexico? And even if there is, why would they want to fly 60% further than via the Pacific? Example:

PEK-LAX-MEX 6,781 nm
PEK-DXB-MEX 10,907 nm

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: georgiaame
Posted 2012-10-03 14:20:06 and read 8582 times.

Tel Aviv?

Preview function says the message is too short to post, so it can't be of much value to the conversation. So let me add: "or is this too politically incorrect"

Throw in Atlanta, metropolitan area population 5.5 million and unfortunately growing. Home of the busiest airport in the United States.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: AirGabon
Posted 2012-10-03 14:59:21 and read 8217 times.

In Africa, Kinshasa for sure. TK started to serve FIH. I am sure EK will follow soon.

Not one of the biggest city but I am also surprised that no Gulf carriers have started to fly to Madagascar. Only AF, UU, MK, KQ and SA fly to TNR. There is an important Asian (Chinese/Indonesian) community there and MD flies to BKK and CAN.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-10-03 15:00:28 and read 8217 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 31):
EK Served Nagoya until a few years ago. Not too sure of the reasons why they stopped flying?

If memory correct they only served Nagoya because the Japanese government wouldn't give them rights to Tokyo then.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-10-03 15:02:08 and read 8190 times.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 37):
Not true! You'd be surprised how habits regarding travel differ between Europe and the rest of the world. 50 KM is already considered far in most of Europe. Given that the biggest inconvenience in air travel is access time, you would be surprised. It does happen but you will find that not many people will cross borders country borders to travel long distances. Unreliability caused by congestion, fuel prices and expensive Airport Parking mean that people will pay a premium to fly out of their local airports.


I don't think habits are so different in many parts of America (particularly in some of Emirates' largest markets). Countries such as Belgium or Luxembourg (I think this is substantially different in NL due to tax/policy issues) have some of the highest ownership car rates in the world (on par with the US if not higher). Granted, motorways in Benelux are usually jammed, but that's the same in the Northeast US or in urban California... someone with origin in Palo Alto would rather fly from SJC instead of SFO and someone heading to Boca Raton would prefer to fly to FLL instead of MIA. Schiphol has a rail station that connects it very efficiently with the whole region, contrary to almost any airport in America.

I would see Turkish a much better fit for RTM. They seem to like secondary/minor airports in EMEA, and a A320/B737 would be probably easier to fill that an Emirates A330/B777.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-10-03 15:20:56 and read 8004 times.

In LATAM, add SCL to the list.

Once the route matures, they could drop the EZE tag from the GIG flight (just a dedicated DXB-GIG) and, instead, route EZE with a DXB-EZE-SCL (being the single Middle Eastern carrier with a direct flight to EZE).

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-10-03 15:42:04 and read 7846 times.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 3):

Yeah i realized i was typical American Centric with my interpretation
 

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-10-03 16:37:41 and read 7377 times.

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 41):

In Africa, Kinshasa for sure. TK started to serve FIH. I am sure EK will follow soon.

Not one of the biggest city but I am also surprised that no Gulf carriers have started to fly to Madagascar. Only AF, UU, MK, KQ and SA fly to TNR. There is an important Asian (Chinese/Indonesian) community there and MD flies to BKK and CAN.

It's a little bit strange that even TNR-BKK-CAN can fill 2 A343 per week but no connection DXB-TNR!

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2012-10-04 08:08:38 and read 6806 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
I should think their 777-200LRs could do it with a fair payload.

I have my doubts. As you mentioned DL does JNB-ATL nonstop but I don't know if it has incurs any penalties. MEX-DXB is 8914 mi according to the GCM, 500 mi more than JNB-ATL. I think the tire speed limitation will affect them just like it affects ET out of ADD on its north American routes.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 12):
perhaps use a triangle like DXB-MEX-CUN-DXB

I like this one and it would solve the range issue with flight nonstop on the eastbound leg out of MEX.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 35):
Miami Florida needs Emirates.

Not sure if we need it but I certainly would welcome it. Connect one phony place with another phony place, what could go wrong with that?   

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-10-04 09:08:11 and read 6705 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):
Doubt it. MEX-DXB is about 500 nm further than SFO-DXB

I see this as a 'tag route' with a European stop. There is no other way to make the economics work, IMHO.

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 40):
"or is this too politically incorrect"

The issue is Saudi does not allow overflights to Israel. Until the shortest path route is open, it is cheaper for EK to fly to Cyprus and pick up/drop off Israelis in a fiction everyone is happy to ignore.

I do think if Israel ever opens up, EK would serve two or three airports within the country fairly quickly. But I doubt that day will come.

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 40):
Throw in Atlanta

Isn't there already a DL flight to DXB? Note, I'm asking. Now, that hasn't stopped EK in the past (example, IAD-DXB), but I doubt the route is strong enough without DL feed. After China and Indonesia, I would look for EK expansion to MIA and ORD.

It looks like EK is trying to shift their evening bank (or maybe start a new one), so I would rather expect more flights to existing destinations in the Americas first. If the bank would support such a flight (not a trivial question)?

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2012-10-04 09:42:21 and read 6651 times.

TLV: If there weren't those issues between Dubai and Israel, most likely EK (with its own metal or on an EK-owned airliner) would be flying to TLV in not time.
Several years ago, someone commented in these forums about now retired EK A310 @ TLV because UAE diplomats having talks with Palestinian dignitaries.. So for that part EK has already been to TLV.

MEX: MEX-DXB take off can't be really compared to JNB-DXB, Not only the distance from MEX to DXB is way longer, MEX is 500m higher than JNB. Add to that DXB-MEX west-bound route over the Northern hemisphere.. prone to seasonal headwinds..
CUN and/or MTY may prove to be good stops enroute to DXB if EK decides to fly to MEX.

In Latin America, other than MEX, SCL, LIM, BOG, CCS and who knows CNF, SSA or BSB too may draw some attention from EK. However BOG may face some altitude issues for a BOG-DXB.,
In this part of the world, PTY may be attractive for EK because CM hub, not because the country population.
Question is, how many of those Latin American destinations could support DXB flights without the need of one stop in Europe or Africa.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: vinniewinnie
Posted 2012-10-04 11:25:43 and read 6497 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 43):
don't think habits are so different in many parts of America (particularly in some of Emirates' largest markets). Countries such as Belgium or Luxembourg (I think this is substantially different in NL due to tax/policy issues) have some of the highest ownership car rates in the world (on par with the US if not higher). Granted, motorways in Benelux are usually jammed, but that's the same in the Northeast US or in urban California...

The US being such a large country, it is true (and my mistake) that it depends on which region you talk about.

No-one in his right mind would drive from DC to Philadelphia to Catch a flight. Traffic is just too unpredictable. In Northern Europe for a similar distance people will not only face the same traffic, they will also will have high oil prices to swallow.

Car ownership in Europe though is not quite at the level of the US luckily though! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita)

But yes in the Boston to Washington Area, you have 6 main long-haul international airports (Boston, Newark, JFK, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Dulles), in a similar corridor with similar densities of population , ie Amsterdam - London - Paris triangle, we have 6 major airports as well (Amsterdam, Brussels, London Heathrow, London Gatwick, Paris Charles-De-Gaulle and Paris-Orly)

This is not a scientific analysis but shows that basically with high population densities and high congestion, there is enough demand for multiple airports.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: boysteve
Posted 2012-10-04 15:36:40 and read 6274 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 49):
TLV: If there weren't those issues between Dubai and Israel, most likely EK (with its own metal or on an EK-owned airliner) would be flying to TLV in not time.
Several years ago, someone commented in these forums about now retired EK A310 @ TLV because UAE diplomats having talks with Palestinian dignitaries.. So for that part EK has already been to TLV.

Hmmm, I cannot see EK flying to Israel anytime soon, but whatabout Fly Dubai to Israeli or Palestian territories?

With regards to the largest metro areas not served by EK I think this measure is a little crude. We shoudl be looking at metro areas with the highest GDP not served by EK instead.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: AM744
Posted 2012-10-05 08:22:58 and read 5872 times.

Quoting boysteve (Reply 51):
With regards to the largest metro areas not served by EK I think this measure is a little crude. We shoudl be looking at metro areas with the highest GDP not served by EK instead.

Exactly. In fact I'd go with a GDP per capita measure.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-10-05 08:34:45 and read 5855 times.

Quoting AM744 (Reply 52):
Exactly. In fact I'd go with a GDP per capita measure.

Yea, but Luxemburg needs more people.  

I would go with either GDP or quantity of individuals with incomes greater than $75k USD.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-10-05 10:38:02 and read 5759 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):
And what type of traffic would fill flights on that route? I can't see it. Is there a lot of investment by, for example, Chinese companies in Mexico? And even if there is, why would they want to fly 60% further than via the Pacific?

That's a very interesting comment. I've always been curious how LH, AF, BA, IB fill their multiple daily flighs to MEX. Is it predominantly European O&D traffic or is there a significant amount of Asian connections? I've always thought that there were a lot of connections to MEX via Europe but maybe I thought wrong. I know a lot of Europeans vacation in Mexico but they typically don't fly via MEX, and tend to use charter carriers.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 43):
I don't think habits are so different in many parts of America (particularly in some of Emirates' largest markets).

Are you kidding? My wife and I commute 45mi each way, every day to get to work. That's 90mi=145Km per day, times 2 of us. Back in Europe, where we're from that type of trip you do once every 3 months to go visit the grandparents   And at $10+/gallon for gasoline it's sometimes cheaper to do it by train or plane 

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-10-05 10:56:20 and read 5712 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):
And what type of traffic would fill flights on that route? I can't see it. Is there a lot of investment by, for example, Chinese companies in Mexico? And even if there is, why would they want to fly 60% further than via the Pacific? Example:

There is huge chinese investment and companies in Latin America. Actually one of my best friends back in China is working in Ecuador. Not to mention the Asian population in Latin America (1 million in Peru!). It's impossible for them to transfer in the U.S. for the visa reason so most of them will go by Europe.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: ghost77
Posted 2012-10-05 10:57:32 and read 5718 times.

If EK was to serve Mexico their only options are MEX and CUN.

MEX for its GDP and pop and CUN many people connecting thru DXB to get to paradise CUN. MEX's closing this year with 30M pax and CUN near to 15M, big airports both.

Mexico's governemnt will never give EK rights either from Europe or worst inside Mexico.

EK's only option would be DXB-MEX-CUN-DXB and if they can make a profit, welcome EK.

The other option would be AM getting 77L and flying DXB-MEX-CUN-DXB.

g77

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-05 11:18:34 and read 5649 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 44):
Once the route matures, they could drop the EZE tag from the GIG flight (just a dedicated DXB-GIG) and, instead, route EZE with a DXB-EZE-SCL (being the single Middle Eastern carrier with a direct flight to EZE).

A DXB-EZE-SCL route is very possible. EK's president recently stated that the carrier plans to increase frequencies into Latin America:

Quote:
Mr Clark stated that in the near term Emriates’ expansion into Latin America would be supported with increased production through frequency additions. The carrier currently offers a daily Dubai-Rio de Janeiro-Buenos Aires flight and a daily service Dubai and Sao Paulo. CAPA sources in Argentina expect Emirates to begin operating a non-stop to Buenos Aires, possibly starting early 2013.
Emirates continues courting American as ink dries on Qantas deal

It should be noted that in the past, LATAM has mentioned developing a possible "relationship" with EK. EK's rival QR already code-shares with TAM's rival GOL.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-05 11:34:57 and read 5625 times.

Below are the list of the largest economies in the US. The cities that have Emirates service have a plus sign by them. That should settle the question:

1 New York Metropolitan Area $1,280,517 +++++
2 Los Angeles Metropolitan Area $735,743 +++++
3 Chicago Metropolitan Area $532,331
4 Washington Metropolitan Area $425,167 +++++
5 Greater Houston $384,603 +++++
6 Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington $374,081 +++++
7 Delaware Valley (Philadelphia) $346,932
8 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont $325,927 +++++
9 Greater Boston $313,690
10 Atlanta Metropolitan Area $272,362
11 South Florida Metropolitan Area (Miami) $257,560
12 Seattle Metropolitan Area $231,221 +++++
13 Minneapolis – Saint Paul $199,596
14 Metro Detroit $197,773
15 Phoenix Metropolitan Area $190,601

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: kngkyle
Posted 2012-10-06 06:00:45 and read 5179 times.

30 Largest metropolitan areas by GDP, green arrows mark the ones without Emirates service. Kind of surprised to see Chicago has a larger GDP than London and Paris, but it's only by just a hair.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: damian
Posted 2012-10-06 06:24:21 and read 5131 times.

In Europe, if you go purely by the busiest airports by passenger numbers (by 2011 annual rankings), then Emirates Top 25 list of unserved European airports would look like this:

1. Paris-Orly (ORY)
2. Palma de Mallorca (PMI)
3. Moscow-Sheremetyevo (SVO)
4. Oslo-Gardermoen (OSL)
5. Stockholm-Arlanda (ARN)
6. Brussels (BRU)
7. London-Stansted (STN)
8. Berlin-Tegel (TXL)
9. Helsinki (HEL)
10. Malaga (AGP)
11. Las Palmas de Gran Canaria (LPA)
12. Alicante (ALC)
13. Cologne-Bonn (CGN)
14. Stuttgart (STR)
15. London-Luton (LTN)
16. Edinburgh (EDI)
17. Milan-Linate (LIN)
18. Budapest (BUD)
19. Tenerife-South (TFS)
20. Milan-Bergamo (BGY)
21. Moscow-Vnukovo (VKO)
22. Kiev-Boryspil (KBP)
23. Marseille (MRS)
24. Berlin-Schonefeld (SXF)
25. Toulouse (TLS)

Of course, some of these cities (Paris, London, Moscow, Milan) are served by EK through other airports serving the same city.

[Edited 2012-10-06 06:25:53]

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: N770WD
Posted 2012-10-06 08:03:31 and read 4974 times.

In my talk at Routes 2012 last week, I covered this topic - although I used a weighted combination of population and GDP per capita, and a broader (time and distance) definition of catchment, which did favor U.S. market opportunities. My final list for EK was:

Chicago, Taipei, Boston, Detroit, Miami (ATL and PHL were next)
I threw out MEX because of performance restrictions.

And for QR: LAX, SFO, SYD, DFW, TPE
I eliminated ORD as already announced.

Full talk here, it's the second section of the presentation:
http://goo.gl/Dk87H

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: sfoa380
Posted 2012-10-06 08:06:31 and read 4972 times.

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 59):

When talking about SFO in conversations that involve a region like the Bay Area, you have to include the San Jose MSA as well. These figures leave out the majority of Silicon Valley--aka Santa Clara County which is a major driver in the SFO catchment stats.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-10-06 08:54:21 and read 4902 times.

Quoting damian (Reply 60):

We can remove cities with airports already served by EK:

2. Palma de Mallorca (PMI)
4. Oslo-Gardermoen (OSL)
5. Stockholm-Arlanda (ARN)
6. Brussels (BRU)
8. Berlin-Tegel (TXL)
9. Helsinki (HEL)
10. Malaga (AGP)
11. Las Palmas de Gran Canaria (LPA)
12. Alicante (ALC)
13. Cologne-Bonn (CGN)
14. Stuttgart (STR)
16. Edinburgh (EDI)
18. Budapest (BUD)
19. Tenerife-South (TFS)
22. Kiev-Boryspil (KBP)
23. Marseille (MRS)
24. Berlin-Schonefeld (SXF)
25. Toulouse (TLS)

And airports heavily relying on European leisure traffic, yet I wonder if AGP could be considered as well as a "main" airport for EK (lots of tourists from the Gulf region there):

4. Oslo-Gardermoen (OSL)
5. Stockholm-Arlanda (ARN)
6. Brussels (BRU)
8. Berlin-Tegel (TXL)
9. Helsinki (HEL)
13. Cologne-Bonn (CGN)
14. Stuttgart (STR)
16. Edinburgh (EDI)
18. Budapest (BUD)
22. Kiev-Boryspil (KBP)
23. Marseille (MRS)
25. Toulouse (TLS)

Their biggest gaps in the Euro network are certainly OSL, ARN and BRU. Then, EDI and BUD. KBP is already served by flyDubai.

BER seems more complicated with the German bilateral issues. Also, AB's partnership with EY (and QR flying) maybe means too much competition already. HEL is a smaller market that the Scandinavian capitals, and AY already serves directly many Asian cities from there (the bread and butter of EK). CGN and STR are too close to FRA (QR is dropping STR soon). MRS (close to NCE as well) and TLS seem to me quite smaller markets for the very near future.

Quoting N770WD (Reply 61):
Chicago, Taipei, Boston, Detroit, Miami (ATL and PHL were next)
I threw out MEX because of performance restrictions.

I certainly can't see DTW at the same level as BOS/MIA. Maybe on the paper Detroit has a similar GDP to BOS/MIA areas, but on reality Detroit area is overall quite a depressive economy with bleak prospects and little interest to foreigners (compared to tourism in MIA or education/research/health in BOS).

DTW is only served by Air France, Lufthansa and Royal Jordanian. Certainly the DL hub will avoid more airlines opening long-haul routes there. But MIA is a AA hub and it doesn't stop foreign airliners to open new routes or duplicate AA's long-haul ones.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Malayil
Posted 2012-10-06 09:59:06 and read 4780 times.

I feel that Emirates needs to work on changing their bilaterals with India and China. Already EK is maxed out on Indian and Chinese routes. If EK can open up more seats to those countries then I can see more American expansion. OSL, ARN, and BRU would help EK on their South-East Asian routes. Taipei is also another possibility. As for the next American markets, ORD, MIA and BOS will definitely be the next three.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-10-06 20:09:13 and read 4566 times.

What about EK doing a MEX-DTW-DXB? The route of flight from MEX to DXB goes almost directly over DTW anyways. You add the 2 cities together and you can fill-up a 777-300. Or is this not likely at all?

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Aaron747
Posted 2012-10-07 08:44:28 and read 4168 times.

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 59):
30 Largest metropolitan areas by GDP, green arrows mark the ones without Emirates service.

This chart does not include Nagoya in the ranking where it belongs - just above Osaka/Kobe in overall GDP.

The Nagoya metropolitan region (known here in Japan as the Chukyo area) has a GDP of roughly $450 billion.

http://greaternagoya.org/en/eco_inf/eco.html

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2012-10-09 06:59:36 and read 3725 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 65):
What about EK doing a MEX-DTW-DXB? The route of flight from MEX to DXB goes almost directly over DTW anyways. You add the 2 cities together and you can fill-up a 777-300. Or is this not likely at all?

Passengers from countries which need U.S. visas to get into the U.S. flying to/from MEX via DTW will require U.S. visas to be on-board those flights..

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: incitatus
Posted 2012-10-09 07:57:07 and read 3615 times.

Quoting sfoa380 (Reply 62):
When talking about SFO in conversations that involve a region like the Bay Area, you have to include the San Jose MSA as well. These figures leave out the majority of Silicon Valley--aka Santa Clara County which is a major driver in the SFO catchment stats.

Exactly - whenever I gather metropolitan area economic data, I don't even think about it anymore - got to fix the San Francisco part because it is one economic area.

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 59):
30 Largest metropolitan areas by GDP, green arrows mark the ones without Emirates service. Kind of surprised to see Chicago has a larger GDP than London and Paris, but it's only by just a hair.

This is a good list but I have one beef with it. It is PPP. PPP for air travel does not work. Air travel mostly has inputs that are priced in a global market, so its price fluctuation across countries does not follow PPP.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 66):
This chart does not include Nagoya in the ranking where it belongs - just above Osaka/Kobe in overall GDP.

The Nagoya metropolitan region (known here in Japan as the Chukyo area) has a GDP of roughly $450 billion.

Yes, Nagoya needs to be in the list. But Osaka has the same issue as San Francisco - its effective metro area is more than its prefecture plus Kobe only. Osaka's metro area GDP is about 750 billion.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Malayil
Posted 2012-10-09 08:47:22 and read 3545 times.

Nagoya was previously served by Emirates. I doubt they would go back there after dropping it.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-10-09 09:04:53 and read 3498 times.

Quoting Malayil (Reply 69):
Nagoya was previously served by Emirates. I doubt they would go back there after dropping it.

Why not? It was dropped at the start of this recession. When the Japanese economy picks up again, I could see it restarted.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Malayil
Posted 2012-10-09 09:45:41 and read 3420 times.

I admit I'm not an expert on traffic from Nagoya, but considering Japan has been in an economic malaise for the past 20 years I don't see where the premium traffic will go to. Tokyo was always the big prize and when Japan allowed EK to go there they snapped it up.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-10-09 09:51:03 and read 3411 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 67):
Passengers from countries which need U.S. visas to get into the U.S. flying to/from MEX via DTW will require U.S. visas to be on-board those flights..

Certainly a consideration, but couldn't we expect that most Mexicans flying to the Middle East would have US visas?

(Not that MEX-DTW-DXB makes much sense. If a tag were operated, I would expect the US-Mexico segment to be relatively short-haul to minimize costs. Would you rather operate a 1500-mi route with a 50% load factor or a 500-mi route?)

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: boysteve
Posted 2012-10-09 10:00:35 and read 3388 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 67):
Passengers from countries which need U.S. visas to get into the U.S. flying to/from MEX via DTW will require U.S. visas to be on-board those flights

Why is this? Do pax flying on NZ LHR-LAX-AKL require USA visas if to go between London & New Zealand without getting off the plane? How do people cope changing planes when they don't need to officially enter a county?

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Malayil
Posted 2012-10-09 10:37:41 and read 3310 times.

All foreigners who fly into the US must present themselves at US CBP. Even for NZ's AKL-LAX-LHR where the final destination is LHR, passengers must pass through immigration and then re-board the plane. Of course NZ and UK have access to the Visa Waiver Program so they don't have to go through the hassle of getting a US visa. However, Mexicans are not so fortunate.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: migair54
Posted 2012-10-09 11:23:58 and read 3224 times.

Quoting boysteve (Reply 73):
Why is this? Do pax flying on NZ LHR-LAX-AKL require USA visas if to go between London & New Zealand without getting off the plane? How do people cope changing planes when they don't need to officially enter a county?

I remember before it was possible to transit via USA without visa, IB used to have some planes based in Miami to fly to central America, I think never another airline has had a hub in the USA without being an USA airline. But i´m not sure when exactly that change and even to transit thru the USA you need a visa and it´s not cheap nor easy to get, specially if you are from centra america countries.

I can´t still understand why they don´t serve Chicago, it´s such a big economy and important city in the USA.

Quoting Malayil (Reply 69):
Nagoya was previously served by Emirates. I doubt they would go back there after dropping it.

Even after that, it´s easier to see them back in NGO than starting a new city in Japan, if they flew there it´s because they saw a potential market but sometimes the market conditions are not ready yet and you have to drop and wait for the conditions to be met.... i´m almost sure than sooner or later they will be back in Nagoya

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: allegiantflyer
Posted 2012-10-09 11:36:27 and read 3191 times.

PHX comes to my mind...But that would only be in my dreams to get EK service. But maybe they could use PHX as a pit stop for fuel or something since gas is much cheaper in Arizona Than California. But again very slight chance.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Malayil
Posted 2012-10-09 13:27:49 and read 3098 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 75):
I remember before it was possible to transit via USA without visa, IB used to have some planes based in Miami to fly to central America, I think never another airline has had a hub in the USA without being an USA airline. But i´m not sure when exactly that change and even to transit thru the USA you need a visa and it´s not cheap nor easy to get, specially if you are from centra america countries.

That all stopped after 9/11. As for Chicago, that is a major hole in their route network. But Chicago traffic will be mostly heading to India, and with seats to India capped tickets to India will become even more expensive. The bilaterals with India and China are EK's main issues.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Rara
Posted 2012-10-09 14:40:33 and read 3016 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 5):
Mexico City (Valley of Mexico)
Shenzhen
Nagoya (Chūkyō)
Lima
Kinshasa
Tianjin
Bogotá
Taipei
Dongguan
Chengdu
Wuhan
Chongqing
Hangzhou

Shenzhen and Dongguan are arguably covered by HKG, and Tianjin is covered by PEK. Also, Hangzhou is just a 50m train ride from Shanghai.

I would imagine EK would target either Chengdu or Chongqing next.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: sankaps
Posted 2012-10-09 14:57:07 and read 2998 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 58):
Below are the list of the largest economies in the US. The cities that have Emirates service have a plus sign by them. That should settle the question:

1 New York Metropolitan Area $1,280,517 +++++
2 Los Angeles Metropolitan Area $735,743 +++++
3 Chicago Metropolitan Area $532,331
4 Washington Metropolitan Area $425,167 +++++
5 Greater Houston $384,603 +++++
6 Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington $374,081 +++++
7 Delaware Valley (Philadelphia) $346,932
8 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont $325,927 +++++
9 Greater Boston $313,690
10 Atlanta Metropolitan Area $272,362
11 South Florida Metropolitan Area (Miami) $257,560
12 Seattle Metropolitan Area $231,221 +++++
13 Minneapolis – Saint Paul $199,596
14 Metro Detroit $197,773
15 Phoenix Metropolitan Area $190,601

In terms of cities in the US, I think we'd find a high correlation as well to those that have high South Asian populations (much more relevant, due to DXB's location and EK's extremely high presence in South Asia that is fed through the DXB hub, than Arab populations). I think if you rank order accordingly, the cities not currently served is the US have the lowest South Asian populations.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: boysteve
Posted 2012-10-09 15:13:55 and read 2950 times.

Quoting Malayil (Reply 74):
All foreigners who fly into the US must present themselves at US CBP. Even for NZ's AKL-LAX-LHR where the final destination is LHR, passengers must pass through immigration and then re-board the plane.

Really? That's just nuts! Just think of all the worldwide hubs where millions of pax change every year without having to clear immigration, but you can't do it in the USA? Even when you arrive and depart on the same aircraft?

What's the reason? Paranoia?

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-10-09 15:18:09 and read 2942 times.

Quoting Rara (Reply 78):
Shenzhen and Dongguan are arguably covered by HKG, and Tianjin is covered by PEK. Also, Hangzhou is just a 50m train ride from Shanghai.

I would imagine EK would target either Chengdu or Chongqing next.

KLM serves both Shanghai and Hangzhou from AMS. Both cities are 180 km. away, that's probably the same distance between some major Benelux/Rhin-Rhur airports linked as well by high-speed train which have intercontinental service (I can think of Brussels downtown-CDG which is roughly 1h10' with the direct TGV service). That's also the same distance as Philadelphia to New York (granted, no high-speed train in the US   ). Not to mention cities like NY, Tokyo or London with intercontinental service from multiple airports. Shanghai, Beijing and the Pearl Delta are immensely populated regions and the wealthiest areas in the second largest economy in the world... I can't think of any reason why they cannot have intercontinental service from multiple airports... even in the same carrier (EK flies to both LGW and LHR).

Tianjin is 140 km. from Beijing... same distance Shenzhen-Guangzhou. Shenzhen is in "another" country (you will need to go through two borders) when arriving to Hong Kong (even if you have the direct ferry HKG-Shenzhen), also maybe some nationalities need specific visa for HKG (no idea about this).

Quoting sankaps (Reply 79):
In terms of cities in the US, I think we'd find a high correlation as well to those that have high South Asian populations (much more relevant, due to DXB's location and EK's extremely high presence in South Asia that is fed through the DXB hub, than Arab populations). I think if you rank order accordingly, the cities not currently served is the US have the lowest South Asian populations.

Boston has a large (and in general quite well-off) Indian community. On top of that, all the universities/colleges/research institutes in the area with many South-Asians.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: sankaps
Posted 2012-10-09 15:21:29 and read 2936 times.

Quoting boysteve (Reply 80):
Really? That's just nuts! Just think of all the worldwide hubs where millions of pax change every year without having to clear immigration, but you can't do it in the USA? Even when you arrive and depart on the same aircraft?

What's the reason? Paranoia?

Originally, because the US was not really well located for int'l-int'l transfer traffic and so there was little need or demand for it. Today, a little bit of paranoia too. Plus it would be quite expensive to "re-wire" most of the the airports to allow seamless int'l - int'l connections, they are just not designed that way.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: boysteve
Posted 2012-10-09 15:26:20 and read 2918 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 82):
Originally, because the US was not really well located for int'l-int'l transfer traffic and so there was little need or demand for it. Today, a little bit of paranoia too. Plus it would be quite expensive to "re-wire" most of the the airports to allow seamless int'l - int'l connections, they are just not designed that way.

Yeah I guess that makes sense (my paranoia comment was tongue in cheek!). Although I do know people who have flown UK-USA-caribbean locations so I guess it was a bit of a pain for them. I was just thinking of all the locations I had changed planes in the past such as DXB, SIN, HKG, AMS, CDG, ZRH where it's just not necessary. But I am still surprised that NZ pax flying from LHR - AKL have to get off the plane at LAX, to me that is just stupid but that's a difffernt topic for a different thread.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-10-09 16:11:36 and read 2875 times.

Quoting Rara (Reply 78):
Shenzhen and Dongguan are arguably covered by HKG, and Tianjin is covered by PEK. Also, Hangzhou is just a 50m train ride from Shanghai.

I would imagine EK would target either Chengdu or Chongqing next.

You can't imagine besides AMS, Hangzhou even has 5xWeekly flight to Addis Ababa via Delhi! Actually Hangzhou has the second largest South Asia and West Asia community in China and the largest South and West Asia community in China locates 100km south of Hangzhou, check out Yiwu on wiki. Then you will know why EK is trying to get traffic rights from Hangzhou. Even the 911 there has Arabian receptionists! I used to live there so I know it  

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: sfoa380
Posted 2012-10-09 20:14:38 and read 2739 times.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 68):
Exactly - whenever I gather metropolitan area economic data, I don't even think about it anymore - got to fix the San Francisco part because it is one economic area.

I'm pretty sure that once the San Jose economy is added in, it approaches Chicago and is ahead of Washington with a couple million less people.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: AMX748
Posted 2012-10-09 21:25:44 and read 2689 times.

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 56):
Mexico's governemnt will never give EK rights either from Europe or worst inside Mexico.

Masiosare, that strange foe, which is not a foreigner. How long it will take for the Mexican government to act consistently with the philosophy they took since Salinas in the late 80's. Globalization means that. 5th freedoms and become into a truly cosmopolitan country

I remember Malaysia banned to maintain its service from LAX to MEX, according with some posts in the extinct "America Vuela" forum, because it bothered toooooo much the interests of AM and MX, which instead of renting a bigger plane to compete at the same level, they just kicked in the butt MH to never come back to MEX and continue offering their ordinary 3rd class service. UUhh, but DePrevoisin robbed more than 60 million USD to AMX instead looking to consolidate the FRA and FCO flights

What a mediocre country Mexico actually is, the narcos should be all dead hanged and addicts worldwide vaccinated for the drug consumption.

The hardest obstacle to EK coming to MEX is not performance. Is the lack of commitment and willingness to do the things in the appropriate way. How many years we must be dealing with the obsolete Mexico City airport instead of doing the new one. A matter that is pending from 10 years ago. That's why I said, about 70 posts earlier, we have to clean all the mess in the General Direction of Civil Aviation, and in the companies. Too many had the balls to destroy MX. Well, I could assume they will have enough balls to make their moves in a 5th freedom environment, like the AKL-ACA-JFK route instead of keeping acting as frightened pigs when the wolf appears. IMHO

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Rara
Posted 2012-10-10 01:33:28 and read 2557 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 81):
KLM serves both Shanghai and Hangzhou from AMS.
Quoting justinlee (Reply 84):
You can't imagine besides AMS, Hangzhou even has 5xWeekly flight to Addis Ababa via Delhi!

I know, it's amazing.. It's strange more international carriers wouldn't use Hongqiao, because then they could really serve the Hangzhou and the Shanghai market with one flight. I can see why people wouldn't really want to go all the way to Pudong from Hangzhou. Is Hongqiao very restricted for foreign carriers?

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 81):
I can't think of any reason why they cannot have intercontinental service from multiple airports... even in the same carrier (EK flies to both LGW and LHR).

I'm sure they will have in the future, especially as the airports reach their growth limit. If Beijing goes ahead with the new international airport, it appears they will have two major airports with full international service. Still, for the time being I would think EK should focus on markets which they have no access to at all, and CTU/CKG ought to be the priority..

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: sankaps
Posted 2012-10-10 02:29:34 and read 2527 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 81):
Boston has a large (and in general quite well-off) Indian community. On top of that, all the universities/colleges/research institutes in the area with many South-Asians.

BOS is probably on EK's to-do list, along with ORD. BOS though has a different pax profile, and the South Asian population, though high in the University towns, is probably not amongst the highest in the US in absolute terms.

Regardless of these two exceptions, I think one will find the highest correlation of EK presence in US cities to be with South Asian populations.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-10-10 05:09:13 and read 2431 times.

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 56):
Mexico's government will never give EK rights either from Europe or worst inside Mexico.

In April 2007 an agreement was signed by Ahmed Mohammed Al Haddabi, Deputy Director General of the General Civil Aviation Authority in the UAE and LIC. Y P.A Gilberto Lopez Meyer, Director General of Civil Aviation of United Mexican States. According to what was reported in UAE Interact and AMEinfo, the agreement did allow traffic via specified points in Europe. I haven't been able to locate the actual agreement but this is what was reported at the time:

Quote:
The agreement includes designations of four UAE national airlines; Emirates, Etihad, Air Arabia, and RAK Airways. It also includes unlimited capacities, numbers of frequencies and routes, as well as any types of aircraft whether owned or leased that are operated by designated airlines of both countries for passenger and cargo services. The agreement also includes, in addition to the third and fourth freedoms, the practice of the fifth freedom traffic rights on specific intermediate points in Europe.
http://www.ameinfo.com/116926.html
http://www.uaeinteract.com/news/default3.asp?ID=361 (Emphasis added)

Of course, it is one thing to sign an agreement. Putting it into practice is another.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-10-10 05:40:50 and read 2385 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 88):
BOS is probably on EK's to-do list, along with ORD. BOS though has a different pax profile, and the South Asian population, though high in the University towns, is probably not amongst the highest in the US in absolute terms.

Regardless of these two exceptions, I think one will find the highest correlation of EK presence in US cities to be with South Asian populations.

"Historically" there has been a relevant Indian community in BOS... on top of that there are the coming and going students/researchers (most of whom are not residents and consequently will not count for census purposes... and they will probably travel more often to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh). Sure it is not the largest community in the US, but according to Wiki, there are +62k Indian-Americans in the Boston area:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_American

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-10-10 07:15:31 and read 2307 times.

Quoting Rara (Reply 87):
I know, it's amazing.. It's strange more international carriers wouldn't use Hongqiao, because then they could really serve the Hangzhou and the Shanghai market with one flight. I can see why people wouldn't really want to go all the way to Pudong from Hangzhou. Is Hongqiao very restricted for foreign carriers?

There is some kind of noise restriction for Hongqiao but CA/MU is using wide body all the time. So I think that's just a rumor. It's more or less a strategy thing for Shanghai Airport Group. They want to mimic Tokyo: NRT=PVG and HND=SHA. But the problem is that PVG is not so well connected in ground transportation as NRT.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-10-10 07:48:28 and read 2279 times.

Quoting Rara (Reply 87):
I'm sure they will have in the future, especially as the airports reach their growth limit. If Beijing goes ahead with the new international airport, it appears they will have two major airports with full international service. Still, for the time being I would think EK should focus on markets which they have no access to at all, and CTU/CKG ought to be the priority..

I agree. Some West China destinations should be top priority, including URC and KMG.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-10-10 12:40:21 and read 2143 times.

Quoting justinlee (Reply 92):
I agree. Some West China destinations should be top priority, including URC and KMG.


It is surprising no Middle Eastern airlines serve Urumqi, considering the large Muslim population there and that it is a much shorter flight from the Gulf that the coastal cities (a A320/B737 could fly there).

Particularly URC seems to me more of a FlyDubai than Emirates destination.

Topic: RE: Largest Metro Areas Without EK
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-10-10 13:49:49 and read 2050 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 93):
It is surprising no Middle Eastern airlines serve Urumqi, considering the large Muslim population there and that it is a much shorter flight from the Gulf that the coastal cities (a A320/B737 could fly there).

Particularly URC seems to me more of a FlyDubai than Emirates destination.

CZ had PEK-URC-SHJ and PEK-URC-DXB before. None of them seems successful. Not quite sure whether FlyDubai can succeed because now there are URC-IST, URC-THR, URC-ISB and so on. But it's worth a try!


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