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Topic: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-10-09 09:08:42 and read 8451 times.

Follow on to the now very long thread about the announcement in Seattle yesterday, ( Alaska And Delta Have Big Announcement In SEA Mon (by BlueBus Oct 4 2012 in Civil Aviation) ) Delta today applied with the DOT for authority to commence service between Seattle Washington and Shanghai China.

DL proposes to offer daily summer service using 767-300 aircraft effective June 17, 2013. Off season frequency will vary between 4 - 5 weekly, dependent on demand.

Proposed schedule:

SEA-PVG 1445-1820 B763
PVG-SEA 1220-0835 B763

There exist a large pool of unallocated frequencies to China already, so DL will have no difficulty obtaining the authority from the US end.


OST-2012-TBA

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-10-09 09:51:08 and read 8242 times.

It amazes me that DL can operate the 767 on a 5,000nm route like SEA-PVG. However it is the right size of airplane to do it and according to its specs it can do it. This is the type of route that the 787 was designed for.

The ground time in PVG is quite long, but it allows for convenient connections. NRT is going to a 747-400 about the same time, and SEA-HND has been requested, so DL is growing SEA.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-10-09 10:05:24 and read 8152 times.

Yes I think its interesting the shift that Delta continues to move ever more smaller 767s into the Pacific.

From I recall, SFO-NRT, PDX-NRT, SEA-PEK, SEA-KIX, plus some Hawaii-Japan use 763 at the moment.

I think what it basically says are these markets require as smallest aircraft possible and the 763 is what DL has.

The larger ex NW A330s seem to have found their niche in running growing number of Europe flights now instead.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: B777ER
Posted 2012-10-09 10:07:18 and read 8134 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
The larger ex NW A330s seem to have found their niche in running growing number of Europe flights now instead

Seems to be mainly to AMS and CDG and Africa

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-10-09 10:07:54 and read 8132 times.

Makes sense, although I still find it hard to believe they can't operate SEAChina daily year round.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: panamair
Posted 2012-10-09 10:20:51 and read 8018 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Yes I think its interesting the shift that Delta continues to move ever more smaller 767s into the Pacific.

From I recall, SFO-NRT, PDX-NRT, SEA-PEK, SEA-KIX, plus some Hawaii-Japan use 763 at the moment.

I think what it basically says are these markets require as smallest aircraft possible and the 763 is what DL has.

The markets you listed above are (and have pretty much always been) rather thin ones, (SFO-NRT may not be as thin, but it is for DL since it's really UA territory here). NW didn't have any smaller gauge than the A332, hence it was forced to use the A332 on SFO-NRT, for example. And IIRC, SEA-PEK was one of those routes that NW had targeted for the 787...
On the other hand, DL's largest aircraft, the 744, is used almost exclusively in the Pacific, except for JFK-TLV....

Quoting B777ER (Reply 3):
Seems to be mainly to AMS and CDG and Africa

Mostly AMS, and a few to CDG. Africa will not see any A330s this winter since ATL-LOS has now moved to the 76T. South America will take its place with ATL-EZE and ATL-LIM both going A332 this winter.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: TeamInTheSky
Posted 2012-10-09 11:00:22 and read 7834 times.

Very good to see. If the route is awarded, I hope to see the DL and MU codeshare expanded out of SEA. I believe below are all the routes MU codeshares with DL out of PVG, but will DL have access to the codeshare flights from a SEA flight?


Shanghai Routes Operated by China Eastern

Beijing, China (PEK)
Guangzhou, China (CAN)
Fuzhou, China (FOC)
Shenyang, China (SHE)
Chengdu, China (CTU)
Qingdao, China (TAO)
Dalian, China (DLC)
Xiamen, China (XMN)
Kunming, China (KMG)
Xian, China (XIY)
Nanjing, China (NKG)
Chongqing, China (CKG)
Wenzhou, China (WNZ)
Harbin, China (HRB)
Shenzhen, China (SZX)
Changchun, China (CGQ)
Nanchang, China (KHN)
Hefei, China (HFE)
Haikou, China (HAK)
Changsha, China (CSX)
Wuhan, China (WUH)

Regards,

Team

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: Flighty
Posted 2012-10-09 11:01:49 and read 7832 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
This is the type of route that the 787 was designed for.

Yes, but this is what was in DL's mind as they upgraded 763 winglet with new interiors and deferred the 788 (?). A 788 might burn less fuel, but only a few percent less IIRC. The 763 they already had can perform adequately for now.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: Prost
Posted 2012-10-09 11:06:46 and read 7791 times.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 6):
Very good to see. If the route is awarded, I hope to see the DL and MU codeshare expanded out of SEA. I believe below are all the routes MU codeshares with DL out of PVG, but will DL have access to the codeshare flights from a SEA flight?

I imagine that DL would try for as much Codeshare traffic as possible. The SEA-PEK flight is codeshare with China Southern and China Eastern both, isn't it?

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: panamair
Posted 2012-10-09 11:11:02 and read 7766 times.

Quoting Prost (Reply 8):
The SEA-PEK flight is codeshare with China Southern and China Eastern both, isn't it?

No, just China Southern (CZ). CZ has both CAN (primary) and PEK as hubs, whereas China Eastern (MU) has PVG. But of course convenient onward connections in PEK are non-existent for the SEA-PEK flight due to the very late arrival time in PEK...

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-10-09 11:42:53 and read 7590 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Makes sense, although I still find it hard to believe they can't operate SEAChina daily year round.

SEA is a very soft market during the winter. It is one of the more seasonal destinations in the summer. With increasing tourism, SEA is a gateway for many in the summer. In the winter, there is still demand, and there are strong business ties between SEA and Asia.

Over the years, other than NRT, SEA has rarely sustained daily service on its international routes to Asia. Korean Air, Asiana, Eva, and Delta have all dropped frequency in the winter.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-10-09 11:49:14 and read 7559 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
It amazes me that DL can operate the 767 on a 5,000nm route like SEA-PVG
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
This is the type of route that the 787 was designed for.

Don't those two remarks seem to contradict each other.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-10-09 11:59:37 and read 7502 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 11):
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
It amazes me that DL can operate the 767 on a 5,000nm route like SEA-PVG
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
This is the type of route that the 787 was designed for.

Don't those two remarks seem to contradict each other.

Why? So it amazes her that the 767 can support a route of that length, and it's a route that the 787 was designed for. I'm guessing you misread it and thought she said 767, not 787, in the second sentence.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: Cessna172RG
Posted 2012-10-09 12:34:59 and read 7350 times.

SEA-NRT is United's territory? From what I recall, Northwest was the one that started the route years ago...and until the early 2000s, that route used to be served by a 747-200. Now that it's going back to a 747, and United is keeping their 777 (as far as I can tell), and now that ANA's in the picture with a 787, the plane with the more seat capacity is the Delta one...and with the codeshare advantages of Alaska (just like what Northwest had), the "touchdown" goes to Delta/Northwest (and that's not from a replacement referee, either...lol).

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-10-09 12:38:29 and read 7325 times.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 6):
Very good to see. If the route is awarded, I hope to see the DL and MU codeshare expanded out of SEA. I believe below are all the routes MU codeshares with DL out of PVG, but will DL have access to the codeshare flights from a SEA flight?


Shanghai Routes Operated by China Eastern

Beijing, China (PEK)
Guangzhou, China (CAN)
Fuzhou, China (FOC)
Shenyang, China (SHE)
Chengdu, China (CTU)
Qingdao, China (TAO)
Dalian, China (DLC)
Xiamen, China (XMN)
Kunming, China (KMG)
Xian, China (XIY)
Nanjing, China (NKG)
Chongqing, China (CKG)
Wenzhou, China (WNZ)
Harbin, China (HRB)
Shenzhen, China (SZX)
Changchun, China (CGQ)
Nanchang, China (KHN)
Hefei, China (HFE)
Haikou, China (HAK)
Changsha, China (CSX)
Wuhan, China (WUH)

Regards,

Team

I don't know whether the routes you give is from PVG or SHA because Shanghai has 2 airports! This is a huge disadvantage for international transfer passengers in PVG!

I am so sorry but I think the SEA-PVG is not a good idea again   The O&D demand for this line is really seasonal and PVG is not a good hub for domestic transfer in China. Although MU has a hub in PVG , its service is quite limited. MU is really focusing on SHA now. Given the proposed schedule, I can only find one good connection from PVG-PEK which is MU 5186 on 2125 and one Guangzhou connection of MU 5315 on 2115. The MU domestic frequency is a shame in PVG.

For your information, here is MU domestic frequency in the two airports in Shanghai:

SHA-PEK 21xDaily 16x333, 4x767, 1x320
SHA-CAN 10xDaily 2xAB6, 1x767, 7x320 or 737
SHA-SZX 12xDaily 12xAB6

PVG-PEK 5xDaily 1x333, 4x320
PVG-CAN 3xDaily 3x320
PVG-SZX 6xDaily 6x320

[Edited 2012-10-09 12:40:07]

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-10-09 13:15:36 and read 7218 times.

Quoting justinlee (Reply 14):
PVG is not a good hub for domestic transfer in China.

  

I doubt any DL PVG customers would be looking to make the ground connection to SHA to catch a domestic China flight.

Frankly, neither DL service to China from SEA is beneficial to internal connections.
The SEA-PEK flight gets in almost at midnight!

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: B2468
Posted 2012-10-09 13:57:14 and read 7092 times.

Quoting justinlee (Reply 14):
PVG is not a good hub for domestic transfer in China.

We'll have to see if the Shanghai Government moves ahead with any further plans to improve transportation between PVG and SHA. My wife (a Shanghainese) insists that the government wanted to extend the maglev all the way from PVG to SHA, although I don't remember this, and anyway that idea is dead in the water...the maglev isn't going anywhere (yup, they got NIMBYs in the PRC, too!).

Airport Bus Line #1 shuttles between PVG and SHA all day, but can be very slow in traffic. Metro Line #2 operates from PVG at its eastern terminus to SHA terminals 1 and 2 near the western terminus, but can be a pain if you have luggage, and it requires a change of gauge at Guanglan Road.

SHA has been integrated very well with the Hongqiao Railway Station, a key station in the HSR network, opening up even more of China to folks flying into SHA; it'd be nice if PVG could get in on that action, and China can do some amazing stuff with its infrastructure.

I think the only international routes out of SHA are to Korea, Japan, and HK, but could DL apply for authority to operate SEA-SHA? I would definitely choose that flight if the prices weren't too unreasonable, since SHA is always a better choice than PVG...so much more convenient to the city.

SHA: Always a good decision.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-10-09 13:58:21 and read 7085 times.

Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 13):
SEA-NRT is United's territory? From what I recall, Northwest was the one that started the route years ago...and until the early 2000s, that route used to be served by a 747-200. Now that it's going back to a 747, and United is keeping their 777 (as far as I can tell), and now that ANA's in the picture with a 787, the plane with the more seat capacity is the Delta one...and with the codeshare advantages of Alaska (just like what Northwest had), the "touchdown" goes to Delta/Northwest (and that's not from a replacement referee, either...lol).

Delta/Northwest has had the capacity lead on the route for years based on economy loads. However with ANA and UA offering fully flat seats against DL’s old seats on the A330s, I’m not surprised to see an upgrade to the 747s with the flat product. Until the A330s get new seats, they are not going to be as attractive to the business traffic.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: SR117
Posted 2012-10-09 14:10:24 and read 7024 times.

Quoting justinlee (Reply 14):
I am so sorry but I think the SEA-PVG is not a good idea again   The O&D demand for this line is really seasonal and PVG is not a good hub for domestic transfer in China. Although MU has a hub in PVG , its service is quite limited. MU is really focusing on SHA now. Given the proposed schedule, I can only find one good connection from PVG-PEK which is MU 5186 on 2125 and one Guangzhou connection of MU 5315 on 2115. The MU domestic frequency is a shame in PVG.

Did you check the flights out of the same PVG that I checked? I found plenty of China Eastern connections at PVG for domestic flights, and not just to PEK and CAN, all the airports listed above have flights to Pudong and most have connections that would fit with the proposed schedules. Let's not forget that MU has to feed it's own international network out of PVG so it would make little sense for them to operate a fully split hub. There's plenty of demand in Shanghai to feed domestic only flights out of SHA as well.

There seems to be a pretty substantial domestic departure bank out of PVG around 9pm, I found flights to places like Hefei, Chengdu, Nanjing, Chongqing, Dalian, Xian, Tianjin, Harbin, and Xiamen, among others. So the only thing left to see is if China approves DL's proposed times.

[Edited 2012-10-09 14:36:58]

[Edited 2012-10-09 14:40:43]

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-10-09 16:28:40 and read 6115 times.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 18):


Sorry for the misunderstanding, I know there is a departure bank around 9 pm. I just mean that it's not a good choice for DL. The proposed arrival time is 1820 so there is only one available connection left for most of the transfer PAX. This is not a good option because if there's a delay or something, transfer passengers have to stay overnight. I think DL are just too optimistic about its SEA network but that's what they can do with 767 or 330.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: justinlee
Posted 2012-10-09 16:35:08 and read 6073 times.

Quoting B2468 (Reply 16):

The maglev train to connect SHA and PVG is a myth! How can you build a maglev track through the expensive and fully packed Shanghai City Center? By the way, there are always NIMBYs, the only difference is whether they can be heard or not  

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: CompensateMe
Posted 2012-10-09 16:36:29 and read 6063 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
I doubt any DL PVG customers would be looking to make the ground connection to SHA to catch a domestic China flight.

I've made the ground connection several times before. The bus takes about about an hour (and it's small, cramped and uncomfortable - buy hey, it's China so who's surprised) and everything at SHA moves in slow motion. Anything less than three hours for the ground connection is risky; with the late-evening arrival time on SEA-PVG, SHA connections would require an overnight.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-10-09 19:57:03 and read 5054 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):

From I recall, SFO-NRT, PDX-NRT, SEA-PEK, SEA-KIX, plus some Hawaii-Japan use 763 at the moment.

Yes. KIX has had the 330 on it off and on.
HNL-FUK is a 767....I think NGO is going to see the 330 but i may be wrong.
KIX/NRT see the 67 every now and then.

Delta is adding a low C config to its 767 fleet for its beach market flying. You'll be seeing those aircraft on HNL-Japan and Japan-GUM/SPN.

LAXintl.....how many open China frequencies will this leave?(PEK/PVG only.)

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-10-09 20:04:33 and read 5011 times.

Best I can figure there will be 28.

There was 37 when DL requested 2 additional ones to make Detroit-Beijing daily in August.
Subtract another 7 for this, should leave 28 in the pool for China Zone 1 frequencies.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-10-10 06:41:46 and read 3703 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
Why? So it amazes her that the 767 can support a route of that length, and it's a route that the 787 was designed for. I'm guessing you misread it and thought she said 767, not 787, in the second sentence.

You are right, I did read 767 instead of 787. My mistake.

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Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-10-10 06:48:44 and read 3800 times.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 21):

I've made the ground connection several times before. The bus takes about about an hour (and it's small, cramped and uncomfortable - buy hey, it's China so who's surprised) and everything at SHA moves in slow motion. Anything less than three hours for the ground connection is risky; with the late-evening arrival time on SEA-PVG, SHA connections would require an overnight.

Even single airport connections within China are a bit of a goat-rodeo. This route should be fine on its own based on travel to/from PVG--it's tough to count on domestic beyond-China since the infrastructure, both in terms of facilities and selling, just isn't up to par, certainly compared to something like AMS.

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: Fly2yyz
Posted 2012-10-10 07:03:00 and read 3750 times.

What about DL connections with KE? DL really wants to send their metal across the ocean it seems, but with KE soon to fly the C-Series...wouldnt that open up even smaller stations in China ones that are offered from SHA?

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: United Airline
Posted 2012-10-10 17:39:25 and read 3091 times.

Any plans for HKG? SEA-HKG

Topic: RE: Delta Applies For SEA-PVG
Username: dlflynhayn
Posted 2012-10-11 05:44:59 and read 2692 times.

Last time I checked HNL-NRT it was 2x daily 747, 1x daily 767.But it's probably down in capacity for winter schedule. Good luck to SEA-PVG were gonna need it.


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