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Topic: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: sq_ek_freak
Posted 2012-10-10 11:20:09 and read 20153 times.

Details are sketchy but the BBC are breaking a story that a Syrian passenger plane has been forced to land in Turkey after being intercepted by air force jets.

Al Jazeera is reporting that the aircraft involved is an A320 en route from Moscow:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/10/201210101804010971.html

Details to follow, I'm sure.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Flaps
Posted 2012-10-10 11:23:24 and read 20150 times.

Suspected of carrying heavy weapons eh? Imagine that. Good for Turkey, I'm glad to see a country stand up for itself in this region.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: MauriceB
Posted 2012-10-10 11:29:22 and read 20063 times.

Good to see Turkey taking a major leadership role in this ugly war, and i am glad they are getting global support for their responsive actions.

Hope its all oke, but i must admit im surprised to read that Syrian Airways is still active.


Maurice

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-10-10 11:45:23 and read 19897 times.

It will be interesting to see if Syrian Air is carrying arms on passenger flights. I wouldn't be surprised if Turkey makes whatever they find on that plane very public. This could result in Syrian Air running into some problems with various conventions and ICAO regulations. Turkey has the right to force down any airplane suspected of carrying suspect cargo in its air space. Countries like Thailand have forced down airplanes from countries like North Korea before.

Syrian air has already been banned from the European Union. This won't help them getting re-instated.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-10-10 11:49:10 and read 19822 times.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 1):
Suspected of carrying heavy weapons eh? Imagine that. Good for Turkey, I'm glad to see a country stand up for itself in this region.

About dang time. This is nuts, the EU and the UN are gonna have a field day with this one.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: CF105Arrow
Posted 2012-10-10 11:59:19 and read 19688 times.

Not sure whether it is suspected of carrying arms or not but it appears that Turkey has closed its airspace to all civilian flights to and from Syria.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Birdwatching
Posted 2012-10-10 12:09:12 and read 19541 times.

Wow, this is crazy. I can't imagine the outcome if they really do find any weapons on that flight. Military cargo on a civilian airliner. This will be a major thing. Could this be a turning point in the war?

Soren   

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: TurkishWings
Posted 2012-10-10 12:21:35 and read 19412 times.

The A 320 from Moscow (Vnukovo) is in ESB (Ankara) right now and the belly is being unloaded as we speak. They are searching for weapons...

On related news, Turkish registered airplanes are no longer flying through Syrian airspace as it has become unsafe to do so... This should be interesting which so many middle eastern flights are routed over Syria...

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-10-10 13:28:30 and read 18895 times.

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 7):
On related news, Turkish registered airplanes are no longer flying through Syrian airspace as it has become unsafe to do so... This should be interesting which so many middle eastern flights are routed over Syria...

That's interesting. Maybe they're flying south over the Holy Land/Jordan?

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: fd122
Posted 2012-10-10 13:43:27 and read 18763 times.

Word is that Turkish officials have seized 'suspicious' cargo, possibly missile parts. Will be interesting to see how this develops, if true.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/10/10/243011.html

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Birdwatching
Posted 2012-10-10 13:52:04 and read 18682 times.

Better photo via DPA (German Press Agency)

http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-411360-galleryV9-utnv.jpg

Seems to be YK-AKE.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Kwiatkowski



Soren   

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Faddypainter
Posted 2012-10-10 13:52:11 and read 18674 times.

Do things such as the Chicago Convention (to which Syria is a signatory) actually have any legal authority or provision for penalties against states which violate it?

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2012-10-10 14:34:08 and read 17958 times.

Quoting Faddypainter (Reply 11):
Do things such as the Chicago Convention (to which Syria is a signatory) actually have any legal authority or provision for penalties against states which violate it?

The CC has very little to do with this particular situation, other than effectively saying that Turkey has the right to do what it deems necessary in its own airspace.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Senchingo
Posted 2012-10-10 14:56:22 and read 17511 times.

Smart move to get their own flights out of Syrian airspace right before doing that. Nevertheless i guess this is gonna cause major trouble soon.

If really weapons are found, i hope it'll be the final reason for other states to back up Turkey.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-10-10 15:01:47 and read 17432 times.

Acting on intel? Did someone have an inside contact at Moscow?

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: jumpjets
Posted 2012-10-10 15:05:06 and read 17379 times.

The BBC is reporting that Military communication devices have been confiscated and the plane and its 35 passengers has been given permission to leave.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: zkojq
Posted 2012-10-10 15:06:06 and read 17314 times.

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 10):
Seems to be YK-AKE.

Not a good month for Syrian Airlines. Last month YK-AKF had its tail clipped by a helicopter.

Quoting sweair (Reply 14):
Did someone have an inside contact at Moscow?

IMO its more likely someone in the know from the Syrian Intelligence service defected to Turkey and gave away some secrets.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Senchingo
Posted 2012-10-10 15:13:24 and read 17155 times.

German "Spiegel" reports that Turkish secretary of state said "further passenger flights will be forced to land".
On Monday, Turkish military stationed 25 F-16's near Syrian borders.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...flugzeug-zur-landung-a-860627.html

Edit:
AV Herald now covering it:
"Some Turkish media report, without providing details or sources of such information, that no weapons and no ammunition was found, however, a large shipment of communication equipment for military purposes was identified. Other Turkish media report, also without providing details or sources of that information, parts for missiles were found on board of the aircraft."

http://avherald.com/h?article=45737b13&opt=0

[Edited 2012-10-10 15:53:07]

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2012-10-10 15:56:21 and read 16465 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
This is nuts, the EU and the UN are gonna have a field day with this one.

Then they will do nothing, as usual. Now the question becomes, who were to receive this military equipment in Syria? The government or the rebels? A far as I can see, neither side is one I would support after what has happened to us after helping in Lybia.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: readytotaxi
Posted 2012-10-10 16:03:01 and read 16376 times.

I would guess that an agency "whispered" in a Turkish ear that they might find something of interest.   


Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
Then they will do nothing, as usual.

Have to agree there, do not see light at the end of the tunnel yet.  

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-10-10 16:44:21 and read 15850 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
Now the question becomes, who were to receive this military equipment in Syria? The government or the rebels?

Seeing that this flight originated from Moscow and Russia strongly backs the Syrian government, I'd say the Syrian government

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2012-10-10 17:45:33 and read 15220 times.

My question is this: if (not saying he/she was, just if) a pilot for Syrian Air were in on this, what would really stop them from just continuing to fly to Syria. Do we really think a Turkish F-16 would shoot down a passenger plane on the suspicion of arms trading? There is no way any military would shoot down a passenger plane in circumstance where they weren't certain there wasn't a WMD (nuclear, biological, etc...) on board.

Not saying I would do it, but it would be interesting to see what happened if the pilot called their bluff.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2012-10-10 17:57:04 and read 15093 times.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 20):
If the rebels win all the sects that support the regime will be massacred

Can you give us the source of such information? As far as i know all the different groups of rebels stated that no harm will come to the Alawites as even them are suffering under Assad regime.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2012-10-10 18:14:53 and read 15053 times.

Update from BBC is the cargo was "military communications devices" which are hardly in the same category as arms IMO, though of course the Turks were not to know but nonetheless its sad that Russia continue to support and thereby prolong the madness.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19905247

[
quote=MauriceB,reply=2] i must admit im surprised to read that Syrian Airways is still active.[/quote] Probably still active for the purpose of carrying out flights like this  

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: timpdx
Posted 2012-10-10 19:55:27 and read 14129 times.

hmm, 35 pax, that is on a 2 class A320, that is like a 25% LF, guess the cargo made up for it?

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: sturmovik
Posted 2012-10-10 20:58:53 and read 14602 times.

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 22):
Not saying I would do it, but it would be interesting to see what happened if the pilot called their bluff.

That's an interesting scenario. Turning that around, perhaps the reason the pilot complied with the interception was because he knew there was nothing illegal on board?

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: BMI727
Posted 2012-10-10 21:32:43 and read 14264 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 25):
Update from BBC is the cargo was "military communications devices" which are hardly in the same category as arms IMO,

I'd say they are. In the US there is the United State Munitions List which governs what can and cannot be exported under ITAR which specifically includes "military electronics." Depending on what exactly it is and who exactly is getting it, I'd say such things could cause problems.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: JA
Posted 2012-10-10 21:52:02 and read 14435 times.

Considering that the integrity of the Syrian military is critical to Turkey's stability, I would be real careful touching anything Russian. Unless, of course, you want the Russians delivering it themselves.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: bushman
Posted 2012-10-10 22:37:37 and read 14098 times.

Here in Moscow we have Syrian Air Il-76 coming to Vnukovo airport several times a month. I haven't heard it has ever been intercepted anywhere. It can be much more interesting target for the ones who are looking for weapons.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: atcsundevil
Posted 2012-10-10 23:47:50 and read 13326 times.

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 19):
I would guess that an agency "whispered" in a Turkish ear that they might find something of interest.

No, what sounds like a whisper is actually me screaming from 6,000mi away. LOL. I know there was some evidence that Iran Air may have been shipping arms, munitions, and other military equipment, but only Iraq would have been in a position to halt that and I can't imagine the Iraqis are too keen to get involved in this charlie foxtrot. The Turks are well within their rights and given the mess they've been dragged into, I think it's good for them. Your assertion of "whispers" from -- let's say, western intelligence services -- is almost certainly valid. The Turks would not have gotten acted if they weren't pissed off, so it's clear that they're pretty pissed off.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 23):
Update from BBC is the cargo was "military communications devices" which are hardly in the same category as arms IMO

Definitely. Weapons with battlefield applications (not just guns) and munitions have a direct impact on the conflict whether it goes to the government or the rebels. It is still a big deal because associated military equipment, even communication equipment, adds fuel to the fire. They are definitely in separate categories and although it is probably unethical of Russia to equip them with support equipment, it doesn't have the same ramifications as shipping arms. Even though it probably means they are sending guns too, but that's just my best guess.

I wonder if they'll try to route aircraft south over Iran and Iraq then turn west to Syria to avoid Turkish authorities. That is a pretty big detour though, so that in itself is significant.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: garpd
Posted 2012-10-10 23:49:18 and read 13269 times.

OK so they only found communications equipment on this flight. But it does set a precedent. So, how many flights have flown before this one with potential more lethal cargo? The question does beg answering.

Now that Turkey have taken action, Syrian would be stupid to risk carrying any more military cargo.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-10-11 00:57:53 and read 12656 times.

The only mistake the Syrians made was sticking it on a Syrian plane. If they shoved it on a Russian Ilyushin or an Antonov I would have love to seen someone stop the delivery from Russia.

Lets face it this is not going to escelate anything. If having its border town shelled and having a surveillance aircraft shot down didnt force Turkey into action then this certainly wont. Its another big mess where both sides are full of creeps. Innocent civilians caught between Extremists fighters and a twisted Dictator. There will be no good outcome.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2012-10-11 01:38:50 and read 12236 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 31):
Lets face it this is not going to escelate anything. If having its border town shelled and having a surveillance aircraft shot down didnt force Turkey into action then this certainly wont. Its another big mess where both sides are full of creeps. Innocent civilians caught between Extremists fighters and a twisted Dictator. There will be no good outcome.

Blah blah. NATO is influencing Turkey to act with restraint. This situation is far more complicated than anyone thinks.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: jumpjets
Posted 2012-10-11 03:15:20 and read 11388 times.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 32):
This situation is far more complicated than anyone thinks.

Except you oh wise one by the sound of it  

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-10-11 03:42:25 and read 11107 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
Then they will do nothing, as usual. Now the question becomes, who were to receive this military equipment in Syria? The government or the rebels? A far as I can see, neither side is one I would support after what has happened to us after helping in Lybia.

What bad happened? Yes some small extremist group attacked your embassy and killed some people, so what? It's no reason not to help also in Syria.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-10-11 03:47:11 and read 11043 times.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 33):
Except you oh wise one by the sound of it

Yeah he has some inside info from the land of lala that the rest of us are not allowed to know.

It isnt complicated at all, Dictator.. random cluster **** of loyalties from city to city. Turkey wanting to influence, Iran wanting to influence, Russia selling arms.. Islamic Extremists getting involved.. NATO writing strongly worded letters and having tea parties while pretending to care. Nothing we havent seen before and wont see again.

The only people that lose are the random civilians that just want to work and live like normal.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-10-11 04:20:56 and read 10698 times.

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 6):
Wow, this is crazy. I can't imagine the outcome if they really do find any weapons on that flight. Military cargo on a civilian airliner. This will be a major thing. Could this be a turning point in the war?

You don't think that military cargo doesn't fly on civilian airlines in the US and western Europe every day?

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-10-11 04:28:19 and read 10553 times.

Wasn't even anything spectacular. Just some comms equiptment.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: EL-AL
Posted 2012-10-11 04:28:53 and read 10622 times.

The hypocrisy is unbelievable. All hell would break loose if Israel would have forced an civilian airliner flying from one country to another to land using fighter jets, with another 200+ thread about the Israeli piracy, but if Turkey does so it's OK.

Come on, as if no one knows what those planes really fly for 18 months now. I want to see Turkey trying to land a Russian cargo jet heading to Syria.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: EagleBoy
Posted 2012-10-11 04:38:04 and read 10475 times.

Quoting bushman (Reply 28):
Here in Moscow we have Syrian Air Il-76 coming to Vnukovo airport several times a month. I haven't heard it has ever been intercepted anywhere. It can be much more interesting target for the ones who are looking for weapons.
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 31):

The only mistake the Syrians made was sticking it on a Syrian plane. If they shoved it on a Russian Ilyushin or an Antonov I would have love to seen someone stop the delivery from Russia.

A military transport is expected to carry military equipment. Any IL-76 making the trip would be filed as military. Turkey could in theory prevent overflight of Russian aircraft,but technically Russia is a neutral country in this conflict.
This was a civilian airliners suspected of carrying military equipment. This is probably against IATA and/or ICAO regs, also if it was not declared onboard then it is cross border smuggling.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2012-10-11 04:46:25 and read 10371 times.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 38):
The hypocrisy is unbelievable. All hell would break loose if Israel would have forced an civilian airliner flying from one country to another to land using fighter jets, with another 200+ thread about the Israeli piracy, but if Turkey does so it's OK.

Israel has already done that - December 12, 1954.

(And worse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_114)

David

[Edited 2012-10-11 04:47:39]

[Edited 2012-10-11 04:48:08] The bracket is a pain in the rear.

[Edited 2012-10-11 04:58:31]Now, it shouldn't be.

[Edited 2012-10-11 04:59:03]

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-10-11 04:59:43 and read 10158 times.

Of course civilian airliners carry some sort of military goods on a daily basis. As long as the export or import is not prohoibited in the countries concerned and the packing as well as the items are in line with IATA and ICAO rules and regulations, export and import permits are on hand , stamped and certified, that is all OK:

All cargo flights might even carry some ordnance, but then they are military charter and should rather not make tech stops at places like LHR or FRA..

What we have here, with Syria, is a country that is sanctioned by the UN, the EU and the USA. Some of the sanctions prohibit the import of military goods and equipment and that is exactly the case we have here. International law is the basis for the actions of the tiurkish government.

Of course they cannot force the IL76s cargo flights which are likely not flown throught Turkish air space anyhow. Such flights likely go via Iran and Iraq. However, it was quite bold by the Syrians to use a civilian flight.

That window is likely shut now.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-10-11 04:59:53 and read 10182 times.

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 39):
A military transport is expected to carry military equipment. Any IL-76 making the trip would be filed as military.

You are in for a surprise if you think Civilian Aircraft do not fly Military equiptment. Especially things such as Communications Equiptment. I doubt any random contracted Russian Cargo Aircraft heading towards Syria would be filed as "military transport". Merely a routine cargo flight.

They might want to turn their heads towards the waves also because the proper stuff will be rolling off of ships.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 38):
The hypocrisy is unbelievable. All hell would break loose if Israel would have forced an civilian airliner flying from one country to another to land using fighter jets, with another 200+ thread about the Israeli piracy, but if Turkey does so it's OK.

lol the world evolves around Hypocrisy and turning a blind eye when it suits, Just like all the false "outrage" concerning syria. Nobody bats an eyelid about what happens in places like Sudan or Somalia. They are to far out of the way to care. Iraq died off.. Afghanistans withdrawl is on the horizon.. Libya is "Oh so safe" now.. Moving onto Syria .. Then Egypt will be the focus (yet again).. Then some other place. Wherever fits the agenda at that point in time.

The human race is surely amusing and tragic.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: JumboJim747
Posted 2012-10-11 05:28:07 and read 9815 times.

I cant see a professional pilot captain in charge of an airliner willing to carry weapons on his plane and risk the safety of his plane and passengers

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: yowza
Posted 2012-10-11 05:41:19 and read 9692 times.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 38):
The hypocrisy is unbelievable. All hell would break loose if Israel would have forced an civilian airliner flying from one country to another to land using fighter jets, with another 200+ thread about the Israeli piracy, but if Turkey does so it's OK.

Since the thread starter is not a Turk and since Turkey - more than other countries in the region - takes a back seat with a lot of Israeli affairs I fail to see how this is hypocrisy on anyone's part. As for the 200+ threads well you're doing most of the belly aching.  
Quoting EL-AL (Reply 38):
Come on, as if no one knows what those planes really fly for 18 months now. I want to see Turkey trying to land a Russian cargo jet heading to Syria.

Cargo jet I could see, military transport probably not. Besides the Russians are too smart to file that flight plan.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 40):
Israel has already done that - December 12, 1954.

  

YOWza

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-10-11 06:14:05 and read 9185 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 42):
I cant see a professional pilot captain in charge of an airliner willing to carry weapons on his plane and risk the safety of his plane and passengers

Depends on the airline and the country that pilot works in. A dictatorship like syria leaves little choice if youwant to keep your status, your house, your family.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: TK787
Posted 2012-10-11 06:34:12 and read 8960 times.

Milliyet, a Turkish newspaper reports; according to the Russian customs officials speaking to the Russian Izvestia newspaper that the plane flew from Klokovo air base, near Tula, to Moscow first. Then picked up the pax in Moscow.
Any other source that can confirm this?

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Ychocky
Posted 2012-10-11 06:35:29 and read 8942 times.

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 43):
I cant see a professional pilot captain in charge of an airliner willing to carry weapons on his plane and risk the safety of his plane and passengers

If such cargo is cargo is loaded surreptitiously then the captain wouldn't have much of a say in the matter.

I'm sure cargo manifests can be amended with "creative license".

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-10-11 06:51:03 and read 8715 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 30):
OK so they only found communications equipment on this flight. But it does set a precedent. So, how many flights have flown before this one with potential more lethal cargo?

You can argue that the communication equipment is actually more lethal than any bomb or missile. Specially if the communication equipment is radio used on a helicopter or fighter jet that fires the missile or drop the bomb.

Without a working radio, ground attach by an aircraft are that much more difficult.

bt

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-10-11 06:55:31 and read 8664 times.

Quoting Ychocky (Reply 47):

I'm sure cargo manifests can be amended with "creative license".

well, again, an airline of a dictatorship like Syria does not even need the phantasy smugglers might have when they declare weapons as "agricultural machinery" .

They just need the weight and baance done correctly and in that case they most likely had a ramp agent familiar with these procedures on board, or, like in the good old days, a load master.


If it is true that they loaded the cargo at a Russian airbase, it is obvious that thois flight was tracked by satelite and NATO partner Turkey got the information to have a look at what is in the belly holds.

[Edited 2012-10-11 07:03:17]

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: TK787
Posted 2012-10-11 07:14:17 and read 8463 times.

Another piece of info;
When the plane was still over the Black Sea, it was given a chance to turn around and fly back to Moscow, when refused, it was forced to land at Ankara.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Aesma
Posted 2012-10-11 07:55:50 and read 7910 times.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 22):
Can you give us the source of such information? As far as i know all the different groups of rebels stated that no harm will come to the Alawites as even them are suffering under Assad regime.

Well unfriendly groups don't state anything. A terrorist cell was just discovered in France, they were planning bombings in France and then go on to fight in Syria.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 38):
The hypocrisy is unbelievable. All hell would break loose if Israel would have forced an civilian airliner flying from one country to another to land using fighter jets, with another 200+ thread about the Israeli piracy, but if Turkey does so it's OK.

Why do you think some airlines avoid Israeli airspace ?

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-10-11 07:56:20 and read 7835 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 45):

Depends on the airline and the country that pilot works in. A dictatorship like syria leaves little choice if youwant to keep your status, your house, your family.

Yikes.. Dont quote me as saying that I am not so naive.  

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-10-11 07:59:59 and read 7788 times.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 50):
Another piece of info;
When the plane was still over the Black Sea, it was given a chance to turn around and fly back to Moscow, when refused, it was forced to land at Ankara.

Like I said the only mistake they made was sticking the stuff on a Syrian plane insted of a Russian one. Or maybe it wasnt a mistake at all, Focus on the decoy Airbus hehe. Who knows huh!

Everybody already knows Russia supplies Syria, Its no shocker.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-10-11 08:19:13 and read 7518 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 23):
Update from BBC is the cargo was "military communications devices" which are hardly in the same category as arms IMO

If two sides have different communications ability, the side with superior communications is able to defeat the other 'in detail.' Have you ever used a simulation package called STK? Superior situational awareness makes it far easier to destroy an enemy.

Quoting timpdx (Reply 24):
hmm, 35 pax, that is on a 2 class A320, that is like a 25% LF, guess the cargo made up for it?

That had me thinking too...

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 29):
The Turks would not have gotten acted if they weren't pissed off, so it's clear that they're pretty pissed off.

That is the biggest statement from this. Syria has done some stuff to Turkey they thought without repercussion.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 53):
Like I said the only mistake they made was sticking the stuff on a Syrian plane insted of a Russian one

I wonder...

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: suseJ772
Posted 2012-10-11 08:19:36 and read 7533 times.

Quoting sturmovik (Reply 25):
That's an interesting scenario.

I thought so too. Apparently no one besides you and I do   

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-10-11 08:39:48 and read 7283 times.

The shelling of the border town was a far bigger error then shipping some communication/firearms from Russia to Syria. No doubt flights before and after the one that was stopped have been bringing in more arms and it wont stop.

Turkey supplies the Militants who are fighting alongside islamic extremists.. Russia supplies the dictatorship.. Nobody good will win.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: flipdewaf
Posted 2012-10-11 08:58:46 and read 7081 times.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19912534
Apparently munitions were found aboad.

Fred

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: OA260
Posted 2012-10-11 09:24:40 and read 6689 times.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 57):

Not surprised really , very sad state of affairs.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-10-11 10:34:59 and read 5838 times.

And more importantly that military stuff would have probably gone to Syrian Army which is being used by the Syrian government to kill innocent civilians, that's enough reason to be on Turkeys side.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Aesma
Posted 2012-10-11 10:41:30 and read 5767 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 60):
There is a reason Turkey is considered a long term candidate for the EU, but not Syria.

Well, some would argue it's an US ploy to destroy the EU.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-10-11 11:26:58 and read 5317 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 60):
1. Turkey was in the right. Arms shipments to Syria are banned.

Why does Turkey ship arms into Syria then & allow Rebels to use its border as a base to launch attacks from.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 60):
3. The Turkish Air Force plane shot down by Syria

Foreign Military jet invaded Syrias air space... Tough luck tbh.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 60):
Turkey is a stabilizing influence on the region.

lol how so? You have the Armenia/Azerbaijan situation that Turkey is influencing.
Northern Iraq where Turkey has tensions..
The ridiculous "freedom flotilla" crap that provokes fighting..
All the PKK stuff.
Northern Cyprus?

Not like it is all their fault but they are not stabilising the region in the slightest.

I couldnt give a crap who wins the battle in Syria to be honest, I see it for what it is.. Libya part 2. When the extremists come along and murder the US Ambassador to Syria once the dictator has been removed lets watch the back pedalling of the supporters of this escelating into a real war. When the "civilians" everyone is pretending to care oh so much about right now get opressed by the new boys the story will fade away. Exactly like Libya, Exactly the way Afghanistan will be once we pull out.

Like I said 2 or 3 times nobody will succeed here. Dictator or Religious nutjobs for the win ^5.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Newark727
Posted 2012-10-11 15:51:16 and read 4754 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 63):
I couldnt give a crap who wins the battle in Syria to be honest, I see it for what it is.. Libya part 2. When the extremists come along and murder the US Ambassador to Syria once the dictator has been removed lets watch the back pedalling of the supporters of this escelating into a real war. When the "civilians" everyone is pretending to care oh so much about right now get opressed by the new boys the story will fade away. Exactly like Libya, Exactly the way Afghanistan will be once we pull out.

For all but a few, the Assad regime has reached a point of no return; if it holds out, it will be an even bigger pariah state than before with even fewer trusted structures of government, what with the instruments of authority such as army and police being used to carry out the murder of civilians. As I see it an Assad regime that survives the civil war would also be much more inclined to continue killing its people, as the people most inclined toward moderation and least personally linked to Assad are the most likely to have defected during this conflict. You can assume that extremists will replace him if you want, but I don't think it's in Turkey's interests to see Assad win, and I don't think it's in too many other countries' interests either. As such, in this particular situation, I'm completely fine with Turkey protecting its border and airspace against Syria.

To get back on topic, it is interesting that a Russian poster (specifically bushman in reply 28) remarked upon much heavier Syrian metal going in and out of Moscow without this happening. As far as I know Syria's Il-76s, some of them at least, are in full civilian colors and registration, but I don't know if the same rules apply. Or possibly the Turks were closer to dead certain that this A320 had something on it important enough to force it to land over, and weren't as sure about the Ilyushin flights? Also the situation has been evolving toward a more active Turkish stance against Syria in general as recently as the last week so it could be a more general policy change too?

Quick edit: I know it's not out of the ordinary for military cargo airplanes to wear civilian colors/registrations while still used for very military purposes, even under different structures of command sometimes, I'm just not sure of the particulars with Syria's examples, what rules they're flying under.

[Edited 2012-10-11 15:53:28]

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: lewis
Posted 2012-10-11 16:19:04 and read 4701 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 60):
1. Turkey was in the right. Arms shipments to Syria are banned.

That should include ALL shipments to ALL sides in the Syria conflict.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 60):
3. The Turkish Air Force plane shot down by Syria

If the Turkish plane was in the airspace of another country then all bets are off.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 60):
2. Syria has been firing artillery into Turkey
4. Rule of law (imperfect, but a decent start in Turkey)
6. NATO
7. Trade

  

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 60):
5. TK (this is an aviation forum and TK is one of the more interesting airlines to follow)

Supporting the actions of a country because they have a nice airline is.... I don't even know how to describe it.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-10-11 16:34:50 and read 4667 times.

Reportedly no armed weapons were on board but some "missile components" and "spy weaponry" were on board. These are apparently not allowed to travel trans-boarder without customs clearance, which is what got the turkish secret service all in a tizzy. But it's a good catch by them because it further exasperates the Assad regime's attempt to shut down the rebels.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-10-11 18:30:06 and read 4527 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 60):
There is a reason Turkey is considered a long term candidate for the EU, but not Syria.

Well, for one reason, part of Turkey is in Europe, none of Syria is...which is entirely beside the point; the EU has made the conditions so onerous that membership can never happen. The EU is trying to walk the line by offering 'special relationship' type status to Turkey which the EU hopes with appease them. Merkel, for one, has vehemently opposed Turkish entry into the EU, as have other leaders.

Since it takes unanimous consent of all EU countries, it will never happen. No term will ever be long enough for the EU to every allow Turkey to join.

It's sadly funny how people look at Iran as a bogey man partly because the government denies the Holocaust, yet they cheer on Turkey, despite their denial of responsibility for the Armenian genocide. Total numbers of Armenians killed were only around 1.5 million so maybe it's a numbers game.

There are no clean hands in any of this. Al Qaeda is part of the rebel resistance...should they be helped too?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 69):
Staying on topic, I still see no reason to condemn them for their LEGAL action in searching an arms carrying plane. Yes, comms are considered arms. Situation awareness is key to victory...

Actually, they didn't know the plane carried arms...they suspected and since Syria did have overfly rights at the time, the legality of the action is questionable. A scheduled flight from Russia to Syria hardly constitutes probable cause.

If they had landed in Turkey or filed to land there, that's a different matter entirely.

Coms, while certainly useful in conflict, (though the exact nature of what they found hasn't been revealed), aren't arms so they obviously had bad intel...and they didn't find the coms until after the plane was searched. They also tied up the pilots and held the passengers at gunpoint while they searched the plane and denied 17 Russian citizens aboard access to the Russian consular staff.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: aviateur
Posted 2012-10-11 18:46:40 and read 4497 times.

I wish the reporters had gotten the airline name correct. It's Syrianair, not "Syrian Air."

I sent a letter to AP, but I wouldn't expect a correction.


PS

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-10-12 00:08:24 and read 4243 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 73):
Coms, while certainly useful in conflict, (though the exact nature of what they found hasn't been revealed), aren't arms

This we will have to disagree. They are regulated as such for good reason. They are more than useful, they will decide.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 73):
They also tied up the pilots and held the passengers at gunpoint while they searched the plane and denied 17 Russian citizens aboard access to the Russian consular staff.

This I am not happy with what Turkey did. In particular as the pilots did their duty demanding a receipt for the impounded goods.

Quoting lewis (Reply 71):
If the Turkish plane was in the airspace of another country then all bets are off.

Recon flights are typical. Its the fact that firing went live. It isn't as if Syria has remained 100% out of Turkey.

It seems that some have a grudge against Turkey on this forum. So be it. I won't change anyone's mind. I have put forth reasons why they have broader support. They have done wrong, but so has any country with any power. I do not excuse their actions, I just look at the best benefit. The book "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" has impacted my thinking. Those countries that pursue punishing the past versus growing the future... don't grow as much.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 73):
Actually, they didn't know the plane carried arms...they suspected and since Syria did have overfly rights at the time, the legality of the action is questionable.

Is it questionable? I believe if there is probable cause, an overflight may be stopped. One might not like the probable cause, but it still is legal.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 73):
Well, for one reason, part of Turkey is in Europe

   But it is also economic potential and the democratic government. Even if Syria was 100% in Europe, it would not be considered for the EU.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 73):
the EU has made the conditions so onerous that membership can never happen.

Actually, I am encouraged by the 'chapters' the EU has placed upon Turkey. For example, " Talks can’t be opened on eight policy areas before Turkey extends a trade accord with the EU to Cyprus under an additional protocol signed in 2005, the year accession negotiations started."

http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/...ys-eu-accession-talks-in-deadlock/

If there is no hope of Turkey in the EU, there is no hope of the trade accord with Cyprus. Thus there is a carrot for Turkey to reform. The pull of economic potential is often much more enticing than any punishment action that could be administered.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 70):
For all but a few, the Assad regime has reached a point of no return; if it holds out, it will be an even bigger pariah state than before with even fewer trusted structures of government,

I think Turkey is positioning itself to influence the next regime.


Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2012-10-12 00:45:55 and read 4143 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 35):
Yeah he has some inside info from the land of lala that the rest of us are not allowed to know.

I don't have any inside info actually. I do not respect people getting passive aggressive on this website. If you want to direct something towards me, then quote me fully and directly. Do not talk sideways out your mouth about me. Challenge me directly if you want it.

What else do you have to say?

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2012-10-12 00:59:20 and read 4124 times.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 38):
The hypocrisy is unbelievable. All hell would break loose if Israel would have forced an civilian airliner flying from one country to another to land using fighter jets, with another 200+ thread about the Israeli piracy, but if Turkey does so it's OK.

There is no hypocrisy because humans are already aware of Isreal's unilateral disrespect towards international convention and the laws of the community. That is another thread...another topic.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 42):

lol the world evolves around Hypocrisy and turning a blind eye when it suits, Just like all the false "outrage" concerning syria. Nobody bats an eyelid about what happens in places like Sudan or Somalia. They are to far out of the way to care. Iraq died off.. Afghanistans withdrawl is on the horizon.. Libya is "Oh so safe" now.. Moving onto Syria .. Then Egypt will be the focus (yet again).. Then some other place. Wherever fits the agenda at that point in time.

The human race is surely amusing and tragic.

I do not disagree with you there.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 63):

Why does Turkey ship arms into Syria then & allow Rebels to use its border as a base to launch attacks from.

Why do you think? Erdogan and al-Assad never were friends...

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 63):

I couldnt give a crap who wins the battle in Syria to be honest, I see it for what it is.. Libya part 2. When the extremists come along and murder the US Ambassador to Syria once the dictator has been removed lets watch the back pedalling of the supporters of this escelating into a real war. When the "civilians" everyone is pretending to care oh so much about right now get opressed by the new boys the story will fade away. Exactly like Libya, Exactly the way Afghanistan will be once we pull out.

Like I said 2 or 3 times nobody will succeed here. Dictator or Religious nutjobs for the win ^5.

Nobody ever cared about civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya, or Syria. It's a power play.

I think you and I actually agree. This situation is more complicated, and yet simple, at the same time. There is more going on than the media reports. Turkey...Erdogan...is itching to get more involved in this. NATO does not want him to.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Ty134A
Posted 2012-10-12 01:03:07 and read 4119 times.

As we are an aviation forum, we should stick aviation as our main topic. Especially if people from countries that are not able to provide broad parts of their population with propper education keep repeating mass media crap such as:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 60):
1. Turkey was in the right. Arms shipments to Syria are banned.2. Syria has been firing artillery into Turkey3. The Turkish Air Force plane shot down by Syria4. Rule of law (imperfect, but a decent start in Turkey)5. TK (this is an aviation forum and TK is one of the more interesting airlines to follow)6. NATO7. Trade

What about Saudi Arabia helping a little in Bahrain? No Turkish word, nor US comment on it. Why is that?
Who is firing artillery? If I were a rebel, I sure would fire artillery onto Turkish territory, knowing their reaction.
In whos air space was the plane in? If the plane was shot down near Ankara, I think the turkish reaction would have been different.
Whos law are we talking about? Scandinavian law, Iranian or even US law, maybe Turkish or maybe Syrian? Is it tha same law that applies on US troops looting Iraq (while only capturing and saving the oil ministry), or is it the law that is being applied on Saudi troops in Bahrain?
I always enjoy the following: people get killed and children cry for their fathers and mothers, parents for their children, AND SOME HUMANS from certain countries feel that trade is an issue. What society forms that mentality? Probably one that frees countries by conquering oil ministries!

Please dear moderators, work over this thread and delete all the political crap posted (also mine from above), no matter if pro or contra whatever. In the face of war, in which politics get very complicated and people killed every day for nothing, I feel we should stick to aviation rather than political propaganda we get fed every day by mass media.

The fact that an A320 was forced to land is interesting, I wonder how they transported the goods, and especially, how and if these were declarated. Also it would be interesting to see, how much cargo Russia can deliver to Syria by air. Arent there several flights per week with IL7s out of MOW (i believe it's Shukovsky). In any case air transport seemes inconvienient, since it always has to pass eihter Turkish or Iraqi (equals US) Air space...

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-10-12 06:09:44 and read 3915 times.

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 70):
Also it would be interesting to see, how much cargo Russia can deliver to Syria by air.

For high price/priority items, air is the best way. Syria has a port, but any ship with suspected embargo busting hardware can easily be boarded. You can also send it in by land route via Lebanon. But that could also take time.

Whether by air, land or sea, the most important aspect of the operation is intelligence. You keep the shipment from the eyes of spies and your enemies would have less pretext to stop the shipment. They can't stop every flight or ship, can they? Or maybe they can   

bt

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: avek00
Posted 2012-10-12 09:27:17 and read 3748 times.

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 43):

I cant see a professional pilot captain in charge of an airliner willing to carry weapons on his plane and risk the safety of his plane and passengers

Happens every day all over the world.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: lewis
Posted 2012-10-12 13:59:30 and read 3581 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 67):
Recon flights are typical. Its the fact that firing went live. It isn't as if Syria has remained 100% out of Turkey.

Recon flights in other countries' airspace? Sure go ahead but at your own risk. It is not as if Syria is a NATO member too and will show any restrain when other countries violate their airspace. If Syria also does not stay out of Turkey's airspace, then Turkey should go ahead and shoot down any aircraft or helicopters that violate Turkish airspace for all I care.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 67):

It seems that some have a grudge against Turkey on this forum. So be it. I won't change anyone's mind.

I am not a huge fan of the Turkish government, that is true, but I try to remain objective, especially as I am not a part of either side of the conflict. So I do object to your quote above, unless of course, you can prove any bias from my side.

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-10-13 10:09:51 and read 3175 times.

Quoting lewis (Reply 73):
but I try to remain objective, especially as I am not a part of either side of the conflict. So I do object to your quote above, unless of course, you can prove any bias from my side.

I shouldn't have posted in reply to you. Mea Culpa.

This thread is just so polarized, I'm done discussing. Seriously, we're talking Syria. Not exactly a country known for playing well with others. Turkey has its faults.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: 9VSIO
Posted 2012-10-13 11:16:00 and read 3112 times.

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 43):

I cant see a professional pilot captain in charge of an airliner willing to carry weapons on his plane and risk the safety of his plane and passengers

Don't they carry them IN THE COCKPIT on some American aircraft?  Wow!   

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-10-13 16:19:33 and read 2974 times.

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 75):
Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 43):

I cant see a professional pilot captain in charge of an airliner willing to carry weapons on his plane and risk the safety of his plane and passengers

Don't they carry them IN THE COCKPIT on some American aircraft?

Yes, many U.S. pilots are qualified as "Federal Flight Deck Officers" and keep their weapons in the cockpit.
http://www.tsa.gov/stakeholders/federal-flight-deck-officers

Does anyone know roughly what percentage of U.S. pilots have this qualification?

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: garpd
Posted 2012-10-14 23:58:28 and read 2375 times.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 61):
Foreign Military jet invaded Syrias air space... Tough luck tbh.

I thought it was well within Turkish Airspace?!

Topic: RE: Breaking: Syrian Airliner Forced Landing In Turkey
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2012-10-15 02:00:21 and read 2303 times.

Quoting Ychocky (Reply 47):

I'm sure cargo manifests can be amended with "creative license".

In the US, unless the freight is classified as hazardous materials, the pilots probably won't even know (or care) it's there.


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