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Topic: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-01 20:39:17 and read 14134 times.

The dirty war of the Argentinian authorities against LAN and the fairness of a free market , has another weapon in the battlefield now.
The budget for the year 2013 will include a special treat for AR, and all the affiliate companies like Austral or JetPack. All the taxes for these companies will be condoned. This will add another level of imbalance to the already unfair environment for the free competition, since LAN Argentina must pay all the taxes.
We have now :
* 2 Million dollars daily subsidizing the airline's loses
* Denial of entry to new planes in the fleet of LAN
* Denial of more LAN frequencies on important routes like MIA
* Denial of use of AEP for LAN flights to destinations in Chile and Brazil
* Full taxes for LAN, no taxes for AR...

I wonder how the AR planes are still allowed to fly into SCEL....it is time to draw some red lines.

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1513198-f...ineas-un-extenso-perdon-impositivo

( And still there are some people who ask why there's a thread regarding this clowns every week...)

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: ju068
Posted 2012-10-01 21:24:52 and read 14161 times.

Why doesn't the Argentinian government pay a consulting firm to fix the problems in AR? They would not be the first ones to do so.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-01 21:36:32 and read 14104 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
* Denial of use of AEP for LAN flights to destinations in Chile and Brazil

LAN Airlines operates SCL-AEP 3x daily! TAM Airlines operates GRU-AEP 3x daily!

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
Full taxes for LAN, no taxes for AR...

LAN Argentina is a private airline; not a state owned company!

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
I wonder how the AR planes are still allowed to fly into SCEL....it is time to draw some red lines.

Why? LAN dominates the SCL-AEP and SCL-EZE routes. AR/AU simply cannot compete with LAN in the free market; compare their operations to LAN's on the SCL-BUE and LIM-EZE routes. It's rumoured that AR will be returning an undisclosed number of A343s back to their lessor(s) next year. Guess which airline's A343s they want to buy?

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: vlad1971
Posted 2012-10-01 22:19:07 and read 14021 times.

Sorry to tell you that guys, but I am 100% in support of Argentinean government in trying to save AR !! It was and will be the only national carrier in Argentina ..... Would you be happy to see if Aerolineas Argentinas were trying to "Take Over " Chilean domestic and regional markets ?? I guess - NO !! Same here . Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground . Argentina was always associated with Aerolineas Argentinas or Austral and would never be associated with LAN .

Look at Lufthansa Italy brand- did not live for a long time, though LH is not to compare with AZ in terms of service .
I guess most of the passengers still prefer to fly their "National Carrier" rather then an intruder ...

Just my IMO ......

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: LVICS
Posted 2012-10-02 06:14:05 and read 13619 times.

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):

I see your point, but my money goes to LAN (or 4M, or LP) only when I purchase a ticket from them. On the other hand, since AR/AU are artificially breathing with money they get from the Government, my money goes to them every day. IMO, with no good reason, or I'd rather say for the sake of populism (and, I think, for other reasons that are plainly illegitimate).

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2012-10-02 07:00:59 and read 13443 times.

If they wanted LAN out so bad why don't they just pass a law that All foreign owned airlines aren't allowed to operate domestic routes? But until that it is rather low of the Argentinian government to say that AR and company don't have to pay taxes while LAN still does.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-02 08:38:08 and read 13185 times.

Quoting LVICS (Reply 4):
I see your point, but my money goes to LAN (or 4M, or LP) only when I purchase a ticket from them. On the other hand, since AR/AU are artificially breathing with money they get from the Government, my money goes to them every day. IMO, with no good reason, or I'd rather say for the sake of populism (and, I think, for other reasons that are plainly illegitimate).

I'm glad to see that there are still people with the capability of seeing the deep implications of this "flag carrier" issue, and I find sad that, in contrast with you, a big number of the people of Argentina is not seeing this.

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 5):
If they wanted LAN out so bad why don't they just pass a law that All foreign owned airlines aren't allowed to operate domestic routes?

I'm afraid that they are not so far from this. I bet you that until now the K administration find that measure too extreme only because of the poor public image of AR even inside Argentina, and probably all the flying public will protest against a law that eliminates their only option for better fares and service. But if the situation of AR doesn't improves ( the most probable future IMHO ), the next moves to ( desperately ) implement will be of that nature, I'm completely sure.

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-02 08:59:56 and read 13087 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 6):
I'm afraid that they are

That's not going to happen and the current President of Argentina is not elected for life. Currently, Argentina is in a recession while the Chilean, Colombian and Peruvian economies continue to show signs of strong economic growth. LATAM has a strong presence in that country and has created many jobs. For example, the number of Chileans traveling to Argentina has increased significantly as many pax take short trips to B.A. due to the devaluation of the Argentine Peso. LAN Argentina will reduce frequency on the SCL-EZE route and LAN Airlines will increase frequency on the route so that LAN Argentina can increase frequencies on certain domestic routes. It's interesting to note that while Argentina has a larger population than Chile, the Chilean domestic market is larger and continues to grow rapidly, (domestic traffic within Chile increased by 24% in August compared to August, 2011). Oh and LAN continues to operate non-stop flights between RGL and MPN!

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: art
Posted 2012-10-02 09:10:48 and read 13034 times.

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground .

Nobody? Everybody wants inferior service if that's what the flag carrier offers? Everyone is ready to pay more tax so their flag carrier can continue to operate and offer an inferior service to them?

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: 757gb
Posted 2012-10-02 09:12:03 and read 13045 times.

I could understand up to a point the "romantic" idea of saving the flag carrier and saving it from the "savage competition" from the larger carriers out there. But this is way beyond that. It's a very dirty war, and the lack of fair competition in the long run end in lousy service and internal chaos. Unions for example know that they can get away with murder as far as interrupting services. There is no motivation to excellence as they know they will always be protected whether they do a great or an awful job. I'm not saying that's the case. In fact I flew AR recently after a long time and my impression was better than what I expected. I hope that could be consistent.

In the long run the customers suffer the consequences. Not to mention the Argentine taxpayer...

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-02 11:06:28 and read 12182 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7):
That's not going to happen and the current President of Argentina is not elected for life.

I really, really hope you are right on both. But she is doing many things to modify the Constitution, with the ultimate goal of being re-elected one more time....Many years ago some Mr. Chavez did the same and....well, you know....
And regarding what can happen or not in Argentina, well, the 2001 breakdown, the REPSOL case and the prohibition ( to the general public but not for the friends and family of "K people" ) regarding the foreign money exchange, are just a sample of the certainty you can have in the country. Sorry, but ANYTHING can happen in Argentina.



Quoting 757gb (Reply 9):
It's a very dirty war, and the lack of fair competition in the long run end in lousy service and internal chaos.

And the public who needs to fly is, by far, the biggest looser in this cases.

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: g500
Posted 2012-10-02 11:21:14 and read 12020 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
( And still there are some people who ask why there's a thread regarding this clowns every week...)

is not just here. The financial times had an article yesterday, "Cristina Fernandez draws another yellow card from the IMF". It wasn't about the airlines but same type of stuff...

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
The dirty war of the Argentinian authorities against LAN and the fairness of a free market

For whatever reason you seem to think the Argentinian government has a personal thing against LAN.... they're pulling this stuff (protectionisim) in all industries to keep their economy from becoming unglue, they're even claiming inflation is only 10% when in reality is 20%.

Is not just LAN, but I see what you're saying

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-10-02 11:23:11 and read 11982 times.

Good, I greatly respect Argentinean government. I think every country should have their own subsidized national airline, free market today sucks and brings both quality and safety standards down.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-10-02 11:34:38 and read 11858 times.

For all the uses the Government of Argentina has for a billion dollars subsidizing an airline is not the best use. Close the airline down and pension off the employees, its cheaper in the long run. AR is an anachronism in a modern time. IF It was 1930 it would be a great instrument if Argentina had an empire and needed air links to sustain it. Times have moved on, its time AR does too.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: art
Posted 2012-10-02 12:21:07 and read 11372 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
I think every country should have their own subsidized national airline, free market today sucks and brings both quality and safety standards down.

I presume you are being sarcastic. I live in England and am one of those deprived citizens of a country with no subsidised flag carrier. We have to put up with British Airways which replaced BEA and BOAC of which we were all so, so proud. As well as that, we all miss having to finance the losses of our flag carriers so, so much.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2012-10-02 12:32:05 and read 11264 times.

Is AR an airline or a essential air-transportation provider or a reason to keep hundreds of Argentinean on a payroll?
If AR was an airline and managed as such, with some lean structure and optimal fleet, it may survive and do accomplish something among Latin America airlines..
The way I see it AR is on its way to become to Argentina what Conviasa is to Venezuela.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: OB1504
Posted 2012-10-02 12:37:14 and read 11204 times.

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground .

Tell that to the people of Peru and Ecuador. It's not LAN's fault that Aerolineas Argentinas is so terribly managed, nor should LAN be punished for it.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
Good, I greatly respect Argentinean government. I think every country should have their own subsidized national airline, free market today sucks and brings both quality and safety standards down.

Because AR is a shining beacon of world-class service and reliability...   

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SamuP
Posted 2012-10-02 12:39:57 and read 11173 times.

Letting AR die and pensioning off the employees will open the market for private capital to start an Argentinian based airline to compete with LAN Argentina. There will be no tax revenues wasted on maintaining the AR dinosaur alive, many if not all of AR's employees could find employment with LAN Argentina's expansion in the domestic and Intl markets, or with the new private ventures that may arise. Furthermore, the Argentinian public (and for that matter the flying public in general) would benefit from having fair competition in the market, offering competitive pricing and products.

Flag carriers are a thing of the past ... some brands have survived, but the rule is they survived thanks to the government privatizing them ... there are examples everywhere. I would love to see the AR brand survive and thrive .. but I am certain this will not be the case if things continue this way. Argentina is a wonderful country and it deserves a world class (privately owned) airline!

  

Best regards to all my Argentinian friends   

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-02 12:48:45 and read 11030 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
Is not just LAN, but I see what you're saying

LAN Argentina will offer up to 225 weekly domestic flights for the upcoming high season:

AEP-BHI 12x weekly A-320
AEP-BRC 29x weekly A-320
AEP-COR 31x weekly A-320
AEP-CRD 8x weekly A-320
AEP-IGR 25x weekly A-320
AEP-UAQ-MDZ 5x weekly A-320
AEP-MDZ 26x weekly A-320
AEP-NQN 3x daily A-320
AEP-RGL 4x weekly A-320
AEP-SLA 20x weekly A-320
AEP-TUC 20x weekly A-320
AEP-FTE-USH weekly A-320
AEP-USH 9x weekly A-320
EZE-FTE daily A-320
EZE-USH daily A-320

Source: LAN.com

LAN will also increase capacity on certain regional routes, i.e. SCL-MDZ 3x daily A-320, SCL-COR 2x daily A-320, LIM-COR daily A-319, and will resume seasonal flights on the SCL-IQQ-SLA route 2x weekly A-320.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-10-02 13:56:07 and read 10474 times.

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Sorry to tell you that guys, but I am 100% in support of Argentinean government in trying to save AR !! It was and will be the only national carrier in Argentina ..... Would you be happy to see if Aerolineas Argentinas were trying to "Take Over " Chilean domestic and regional markets ?? I guess - NO !! Same here . Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground . Argentina was always associated with Aerolineas Argentinas or Austral and would never be associated with LAN .

Well ... I'm not. One thing is trying to save AR, another thing is increasing it's deficit every month at our expense. I would prefer my tax money to go where things are really a necessity and not in air travel, a good that is used by a very small percentage of the population. And if I really have to do this, at least I would expect the company to run like a proiper company, and not a freaking monopoly. The govt' is so freakin' scared of Lan that they'll do anything ...

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-02 14:41:06 and read 10070 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 19):
The govt' is so freakin' scared of Lan that they'll do anything ...

Why are they scared of LAN? Is it because they can only control domestic airfares within Argentina and not international airfares and foreign customers that want to travel within Argentina usually pay higher airfares and tend to fly on LAN? Is AR starting to feel the pressure with LAN and TAM combining and the number of regional flights that LATAM operates into Argentina; especially AEP/EZE via their hubs at GIG, GRU, LIM, and SCL?

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-10-02 14:47:57 and read 10041 times.

AR has always been at a geographic disadvantage at the end of Latin America. The Brazilian airlines use EZE as a great feeder for GRU. TAM operates A330's regularly from Sao Paulo to Buenos Aires.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-02 14:57:57 and read 9935 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
The Brazilian airlines use EZE as a great feeder for GRU. TAM operates A330's regularly from Sao Paulo to Buenos Aires.

LAN operates LIM-EZE 3x daily with the B763 and SCL-EZE 50x weekly and will soon deploy the 787 on the route 22x weekly.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-10-02 15:04:18 and read 9853 times.

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Nobody wants to have foreign airline to dominate domestic air services even if it is better in all aspects of service on board and on the ground .

I've never read such rubbish in my entire life. Nobody wants a service that is better in every aspect if its foreign? LOL what planet are you living on, Probably the same one as the Argentinian government. They are morons on every level.. Embarassing Argentina every day in every way.

The only people that lose out are Argentinians watching their taxes go down a black hole of fail.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: C010T3
Posted 2012-10-02 15:38:58 and read 9577 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
* Denial of more LAN frequencies on important routes like MIA

LAN Argentina has tried multiple times to start EZE-GIG service, but was barred by the Argentinian ANAC even though there were and there still are available frequencies for Argentinian airlines.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 7):
LAN Argentina will reduce frequency on the SCL-EZE route and LAN Airlines will increase frequency on the route

How many frequencies are there for Chilean airlines to fly to Argentina? How many are still available? I ask, because the Brazil-Argentina bilateral agreement has been maxed out for years on the Brazilian side, but Argentina refuses an amendment.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-02 16:20:44 and read 9553 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 24):
How many frequencies are there for Chilean airlines to fly to Argentina? How many are still available?

Chile has "Open Skies" with Argentina. Currently Chilean carriers operate 110 weekly frequencies between Chile and Argentina. LAN Airlines operates SCL-AEP 3x daily, SCL-EZE 41x weekly, SCL-MDZ 3x daily, and SCL-COR 2x daily. H2 operates SCL-EZE 13x weekly. LAN Ecuador operates SCL-EZE 2x weekly using Fifth Freedom Rights and LAN Perú operates SCL-EZE daily as well. G3 just discontinued services between EZE and SCL and AC will operate SCL-EZE 5x weekly using Fifth Freedom Rights.

Argentine carriers currently use 33 weekly frequencies. LAN Argentina operates EZE-SCL daily. Currently, AU operates EZE-MDZ-SCL daily with the E90 and AEP-SCL 18x weekly with the E90. AR operates AEP-SCL weekly with the B737.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: ghost77
Posted 2012-10-02 16:40:11 and read 9413 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
This will add another level of imbalance to the already unfair environment for the free competition, since LAN Argentina must pay all the taxes.

Unfair??? Well, don´t you want to understand or don´t you have a clue about politics? And that the current leftist government won´t change and that they don´t care if they go over LAN´s interests. LAN doesn´t matter, they don´t care as long as they have a big and pride Argentine airline.

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
We have now :
* 2 Million dollars daily subsidizing the airline's loses
* Denial of entry to new planes in the fleet of LAN
* Denial of more LAN frequencies on important routes like MIA
* Denial of use of AEP for LAN flights to destinations in Chile and Brazil
* Full taxes for LAN, no taxes for AR...

Oh poor LAN, poor LAN! The world´s doesn´t turn around LAN., please, another pointless thread of things that won´t change as long as the GOVERNMENT change.

See Venezuela, see Cuba, see Bolivia, this is now Argentina.

g77

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-02 16:49:14 and read 9390 times.

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 26):
See Venezuela, see Cuba, see Bolivia, this is now Argentina.

Actually LAN is increasing frequencies into Bolivia next month by adding a third daily flight. LAN also holds the route authority to increase frequency on the LIM-HAV route. And FYI, LAN has Fifth Freedom Rights between CCS and MIA, but not between CUN and MIA.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: C010T3
Posted 2012-10-02 17:20:17 and read 9124 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 25):
Chile has "Open Skies" with Argentina.

Is it a full open skies agreement or only local? If it's full, why doesn't LAN Chile fly SCL-EZE-XXX since LAN Argentina can't?

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: iFlyLOTs
Posted 2012-10-02 17:24:19 and read 9109 times.

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 26):
See Venezuela, see Cuba, see Bolivia, this is now Argentina.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 27):
Actually LAN is increasing frequencies into Bolivia next month by adding a third daily flight

I think you missed his point. He's saying that all those countries have their government control their airlines, whether or not they're profitable is a different thing. Argentina with AR is going the way of Venezuela with Conviasa, Cuba with Cubana, and Bolivia BoA. Especially with BoA where the government of Bolivia has shut down the competition in the past.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-02 17:33:43 and read 9007 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 28):
Is it a full open skies agreement or only local?

It's only between points in Chile and points in Argentina. Remember when PAL launched SCL-COR and LAN responded by increasing frequency on the route and PAL had a tantrum with the TDLC? However in the past the ANAC decided to pull LA operated flights into BRC and USH.

[Edited 2012-10-02 17:35:30]

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: andrefranca
Posted 2012-10-02 17:51:52 and read 8911 times.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 1):
Why doesn't the Argentinian government pay a consulting firm to fix the problems in AR?

Because they are struggling to solve their own problems? Kischner now with 20% of popularity! ouch! what will be her next step?

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 2):
LAN Argentina is a private airline; not a state owned company!

That's the why AR shouldn't receive that many help, it's unfair competition, it goes against the basics of free-market trade, we're not in USSR!!!

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Sorry to tell you that guys, but I am 100% in support of Argentinean government in trying to save AR

When RG was going down, the govt said: "enough is enough the company CAN'T make money anymore".

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Would you be happy to see if Aerolineas Argentinas were trying to "Take Over " Chilean domestic and regional markets ??

"Chile" took over our market already and if it's to provide better service, I'm in favor!

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 15):
The way I see it AR is on its way to become to Argentina what Conviasa is to Venezuela.

EXACTLY! How sad was to see Aeropostal being "boycotted" by Chavez and the others must be quiet otherwise he goes there and shut it!

I'm really concerned about VEN PAR ECU and ARG, can't even stand the idea of seeing south America back into the dark age!

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 16):
Because AR is a shining beacon of world-class service and reliability...

I bet the stranded pax's in SYD and AKL can give you better ideas of first class treatment, LOL!

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 19):
Well ... I'm not. One thing is trying to save AR, another thing is increasing it's deficit every month at our expense.

and it will keep bleeding until heeeem next govt?

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: Arcano
Posted 2012-10-02 17:58:16 and read 8863 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
Denial of entry to new planes in the fleet of LAN

Actually, LAN stated last week that they have no news about Argentina denial, and called their relations with Argentine Government as "excellent". What's the truth behind this finally?

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
I wonder how the AR planes are still allowed to fly into SCEL..

Thanks god they are! Do you really want LAN to become even more monopoly??
Besides, as critic as you are of Argentina populism, why our "so serious" country would ban a foreign airline to fly Chilean skies only as retaliation to a single company mistreated abroad? That would be as much manipulation as the other

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 3):
Would you be happy to see if Aerolineas Argentinas were trying to "Take Over " Chilean domestic and regional markets ?? I guess - NO

We would. We have so many many foreign companies running local and strategic business that we really don´t care. We love professional companies regardless their origins. In terms of aviation, Chile has unilateral open skies. Any company can fly domestically and be granted with full rights.



Finally, as personal thought, I really don't like what Argentina's Government does with AR and I do think is not loyal competition. But not seeing that AR is more than a company, it's a matter of national pride and a political instrument is pointless and simply it's not to understand the whole network behind.

Our Lan Chile was free to decide to enter Argentina (come on, as they didn't know this could happen) and it's free to leave it as well. The conditions, like it or not, belong to sovereign countries.

I do believe all this practices end up in denying Argentinos better chances, but it's up to them to decide if they want them or not.

Regards )( Arcano

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: C010T3
Posted 2012-10-02 19:05:06 and read 8467 times.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 32):
Our Lan Chile was free to decide to enter Argentina (come on, as they didn't know this could happen) and it's free to leave it as well. The conditions, like it or not, belong to sovereign countries.

I do believe all this practices end up in denying Argentinos better chances, but it's up to them to decide if they want them or not.

That's the thing. People wouldn't have anything to complain about if the government declared AR's monopoly, but that did not happen. They are pretending to have an open market, but making it a monopoly through bureaucracy, not legislation.
LAN is constantly arguing that everything is super, because they want to be tolerated even without growth. Everybody knows the current situation will not last forever. When the current regime comes crumbling down, LAN will be in the best position to be the saviour of the Argentinian skies. That's how it works.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: AR385
Posted 2012-10-02 19:36:45 and read 8277 times.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 31):
When RG was going down, the govt said: "enough is enough the company CAN'T make money anymore".

Right. And do tell, how many years (and bailouts) did that take?

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 31):
That's the why AR shouldn't receive that many help, it's unfair competition, it goes against the basics of free-market trade, we're not in USSR!!!

But you see, what many don´t understand here, is that Argentina is not a free market economy anymore. has not been since 2002. It´s a Protectionist, Populist, Corporativist State, with an Import-Substitution Model. And the ARgentines voted for that. So, any company who expects to be treated like it would be in a free market economy is naive at best.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 31):
Because they are struggling to solve their own problems? Kischner now with 20% of popularity! ouch! what will be her next step?

Meh. Popularity numbers are fickle, they come up they go down, and are dependent on who makes the poll. The truth is, Cristina was voted with 54% of the vote, the highest in Argentine history. Until the next election, barr a Revolution, that´s the only popularity number that matters.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 31):
"Chile" took over our market already and if it's to provide better service, I'm in favor!

Argentina, given its "friendly" history with Chile (for example, just recently that Beagle affair that almost put the two countries at war, not to mention all the intelligence the Chileans provided to the British during the Malvinas war) will NEVER accept an airline as their national or local ariline that for all intents and purposes is Chilean and has a livery reminiscent of the Chilean flag. Now THAT would bring any government in Argentina down.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 32):
Our Lan Chile was free to decide to enter Argentina (come on, as they didn't know this could happen) and it's free to leave it as well. The conditions, like it or not, belong to sovereign countries.

The LAN group saw an opportunity and took it. It´s not that they are innocent victims. Argentina needed to scare Marsans into providing better service and management as well as competition to essentialy lower AR´s price. And they let the LAN Group in through LAN Argentina just for that purpose. What did the LAN group think would happen once AR became Nationalized again?

Many Latin American countries became disenchanted with the "Free Market" after what they saw as ruthless economic pain and suffering during the 90s. Some decided to stick with the model, some didn´t. The Argentines didn´t, and they´ve voted THREE times already for a different model. The one they have now.

LAN, deal with it.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-02 20:07:51 and read 8069 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 33):
They are pretending to have an open market, but making it a monopoly through bureaucracy, not legislation.

Have you noticed that AR now has certain "agreements" with both Sol Líneas Aéreas and BQB Líneas aéreas. Sol will feed AR/AU operated flights via a codeshare agreement. BQB will also codeshare with AR on routes between Uruguay and Argentina.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 33):
LAN is constantly arguing that everything is super, because they want to be tolerated even without growth. Everybody knows the current situation will not last forever. When the current regime comes crumbling down, LAN will be in the best position to be the saviour of the Argentinian skies. That's how it works.

LAN is very pleased with its operations in Argentina and actively promotes traveling to Argentina and enjoys offering pax the ability to travel domestically on a reliable carrier. LAN also offers Argentine pax the option of traveling to various domestic and international destinations via SCL, LIM, GRU, GIG, GYE, and MIA. LAN is a carrier that has targeted certain markets years ago where legislation will eventually liberalize the aviation sector and certain markets where there will eventually be new legislation enacted to increase foreign ownership laws. LAN is already looking north of South America...

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: 757gb
Posted 2012-10-02 20:27:37 and read 7988 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 35):
Have you noticed that AR now has certain "agreements" with both Sol Líneas Aéreas and BQB Líneas aéreas. Sol will feed AR/AU operated flights via a codeshare agreement. BQB will also codeshare with AR on routes between Uruguay and Argentina.

Well that's thanks to the "brilliant" move by the UY government to shut Pluna down in one day... The void created was filled right away by AR. Now while they've been running around in circles trying to patch up the mess they made, the goverment gave BQB and Sol extra frequencies on a temporary basis. But when BQB went to operate them the best slots were all taken by AR. The slots available were simply not worth it as the loads were lousy. So they decided to go with the code share agreement with AR instead.

Half of Pluna's fleet was sold to Spanish charter operator Cosmo Airlines, which has no intention of operating anything down here. So again everyone is just staring at each other in confusion while they wait for uncle Hugo to win his election and fly down here with a wad of cash to start up another airline. Pathetic...

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-02 20:34:02 and read 7950 times.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 32):
Besides, as critic as you are of Argentina populism, why our "so serious" country would ban a foreign airline to fly Chilean skies only as retaliation to a single company mistreated abroad?

I agree that we must stay within the limits of the laws, agreements and bilateral treaties signed in the past. But having one "partner" who is constantly, permanently and consistently breaking the rules of the game, I think some sort of retaliation is needed. We must send a signal, a warning, the name is not important. But we can't stay looking at the moon while the Chilean agreements, contracts and investments are under a dirty war and having all kind of problems.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 33):
Everybody knows the current situation will not last forever.

Venezuelans are saying that for the last 15 years. Cubans are saying that since 1960. There is no need of this policies lasting "forever" to destroy the economy of the country.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
Many Latin American countries became disenchanted with the "Free Market" after what they saw as ruthless economic pain and suffering during the 90s. Some decided to stick with the model, some didn´t. The Argentines didn´t, and they´ve voted THREE times already for a different model. The one they have now.

True. A real sociological phenomena... it is really hard to believe that a supposedly cult and educated population can be so blind and vote again and again and again for a group of people plagued by corruption and bad practices. I could understand that attitude in a country with low levels of education, with famine and civil war issues like some poor nations in Africa, but it is really hard to understand how this kind of governments can succeed and last for so long in a country like Argentina. A couple of days ago a group of Harvard's students laughed out loud when Miss K said that she made her fortune because she was a "successful lawyer"...and regardless that level of shameless lies like that, they vote her two times. Truly amazing...

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-02 20:57:21 and read 7829 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 37):
Venezuelans are saying that for the last 15 years. Cubans are saying that since 1960. There is no need of this policies lasting "forever" to destroy the economy of the country.

People will start to flee Argentina should it go the way of Venezuela. Even in stable democratic countries where there are currently high rates of unemployment, people are traveling to countries where there is strong economic growth looking for jobs. This is becoming common in Chile now with "tourists" arriving from certain European countries that have no intention of leaving Chile. Everyday, Chile is deporting "tourists" back to Portugal, Spain, Italy, etc.

[Edited 2012-10-02 21:00:42]

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-10-02 22:00:39 and read 7747 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 37):
I could understand that attitude in a country with low levels of education, with famine and civil war issues like some poor nations in Africa

In those countries it is not only understandable but actually right thing to do... If you look how foreign corporations keep messing around in places like Congo completely ignoring all possible ethical issues within both environment and their workforce I think anything is better than that, even abandoning free market. Most governments there seem to be way too corrupted to implement proper laws to stop foreign corporations from stealing all the resources.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-02 22:30:03 and read 7740 times.

Quoting 757gb (Reply 36):
So again everyone is just staring at each other in confusion while they wait for uncle Hugo to win his election and fly down here with a wad of cash to start up another airline. Pathetic...

LATAM will add three new daily flights into MVD soon. It will be interesting to see if any major carriers decrease flights into EZE in the near-term. Thus far, Qantas left EZE and switched over to SCL. AC will soon increase capacity into SCL while decreasing flights into EZE, (AC will soon operate YYZ-SCL-EZE 5x weekly and YYZ-SCL 2x weekly with the B77W). Perhaps BA will decrease frequency on the LHR-EZE route and launch LHR-SCL.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: C010T3
Posted 2012-10-03 04:42:13 and read 7517 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
Right. And do tell, how many years (and bailouts) did that take?

What bailout? RG was never bailed out. RG was also never state-owned.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-10-03 04:49:56 and read 7499 times.

The sad thing is that the Argentine Government is causing far wider damage to the entire airline economy there by supporting AR. IF LAN becomes the major native airline swallow your pride and be proud of it, its your new flag carrier.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: 757gb
Posted 2012-10-03 05:19:56 and read 7382 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 40):
LATAM will add three new daily flights into MVD soon.

Is that from SCL?

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-10-03 05:49:15 and read 7327 times.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 32):
Actually, LAN stated last week that they have no news about Argentina denial, and called their relations with Argentine Government as "excellent". What's the truth behind this finally?

Well, try go public against the governent ...

Quoting Arcano (Reply 32):
Do you really want LAN to become even more monopoly??

I certainly don't want to see AR becoming one.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
Meh. Popularity numbers are fickle, they come up they go down, and are dependent on who makes the poll. The truth is, Cristina was voted with 54% of the vote, the highest in Argentine history. Until the next election, barr a Revolution, that´s the only popularity number that matters.

True, but legislative elections are next year, so numbers are important right now.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
What did the LAN group think would happen once AR became Nationalized again?

When Lan entered the Argentinie market thinbgs were very, very different. Nestor's presidency was not even close to being as restrictive and populist like Cristina's.

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 37):
Venezuelans are saying that for the last 15 years. Cubans are saying that since 1960. There is no need of this policies lasting "forever" to destroy the economy of the country.

amen

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 37):
it is really hard to believe that a supposedly cult and educated population can be so blind and vote again and again and again for a group of people plagued by corruption and bad practices.

amen II

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: 757gb
Posted 2012-10-03 05:58:02 and read 7315 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 44):
Well, try go public against the governent ...

Precisely... the other thing that I see is that with AR she got a double whammy: she can play as dirty as she wants and at election time say that she really fought for Argentina's interests. This doesn't stand against too much of an analysis, but most voters (what's important - the majority) don't take the time for that... She can appeal to the people's sense of pride and patriotism (heck, we see it here clearly enough in some cases).

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: Bobloblaw
Posted 2012-10-03 06:14:48 and read 7299 times.

They way to save AR is to fix the Argentine economy. Problem Argentina has a Peron mentality that destroys the competitiveness of everything in the country.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-10-03 06:37:31 and read 7251 times.

Quoting 757gb (Reply 45):
This doesn't stand against too much of an analysis, but most voters (what's important - the majority) don't take the time for that... She can appeal to the people's sense of pride and patriotism (heck, we see it here clearly enough in some cases).

And in this specific case, it's even more important. The vast majority of voters don't even know where the airport is, and obviously don't have the means of using air travel. So basically she can use AR for propaganda purposes since these voters don't have a clue of what sh'e talking about

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2012-10-03 07:33:16 and read 7204 times.

As much as I am a free market advocate, I am going to take the contrarian view as I am getting tired of the same old "poor LAN" syndrome that seems to be promoted by a few members with the same national flag. I am very much against poor airlines anywhere being propped up - from Argentina to Venezuela to Mali.

Thanks to our cozy political setup, there is a virtual oligopoly in Latin America - I am all for strong brands, but try setting up an airline anywhere else - or look at the response especially LAN has given when start-ups come in with their pricing behavior. To their credit, AVIANCA/TACA and COPA don't engage in that degree of predatory pricing. Go ask the management of PLUNA how much LAN's pricing on connecting itineraries affected them, or how LAN acts to block route requests in Peru of the Peruvuan startups for international flights.

Finally, so much of LAN's success is due to the active role of the Chilean government - so I find it fascinating that Chileans are complaining about another country taking a role in their airline. Read up on Chile's Bilateral negotiations - especially with Peru and Bolivia. I mean, how big of a nexus is between big business and government when Sebastián Piñera becomes President and just happens to be LAN's major shareholder before having to give it up.

Saludos,
A.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2012-10-03 07:55:59 and read 7161 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 48):
Thanks to our cosy political setup, there is a virtual oligopoly in Latin America - I am all for strong brands, but try setting up an airline anywhere else - or look at the response especially LAN has given when start-ups come in with their pricing behavior. To their credit, AVIANCA/TACA and COPA don't engage in that degree of predatory pricing.

Neither Avianca nor TACA have't been good for any airline start-up in Central America.. Aces Colombia, Aero Costa Rica and Tikal Jet (Guatemala) names just come to mind add to that TACA didn't really took advantage of the Panamanian airline Aero Perlas potential international traffic rights when it bought it.

Quote:
Go ask the management of PLUNA how much LAN's pricing on connecting itineraries affected them, or how LAN acts to block route requests in Peru of the Peruvuan startups for international flights.

Perhaps if Peruvian airline start-ups would request international flights from airports other than LIM, LAN wouldn't flex muscle at Peru civil aviation authorities.

All this pro-AR attitude of the Argentinean establishment really scared any investor away from doing something with Argentina Andes Airlines.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-10-03 08:01:14 and read 7110 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 48):
Finally, so much of LAN's success is due to the active role of the Chilean government

At least it's a success, and it makes a profit  

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-03 09:07:19 and read 7037 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 48):
Go ask the management of PLUNA how much LAN's pricing on connecting itineraries affected them

I hope you are not serious about this. PU was massacred by Leadgate ( Argentine ), property of Mr. Campiani ( Argentine ), with the notorious and strong support in that effort from Miss K ( Argentine ). The biggest winner with the PU's death was precisely AR/AU.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 48):
Finally, so much of LAN's success is due to the active role of the Chilean government - so I find it fascinating that Chileans are complaining about another country taking a role in their airline.

You are forgetting a small, tiny detail : Unlike Argentina, Chile ALWAYS RESPECT the agreements, laws and conventions, and doesn't erase with the elbow what was written with the hand two minutes earlier. That makes a very BIG difference.

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: kiramakora
Posted 2012-10-03 09:11:38 and read 6992 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 51):
You are forgetting a small, tiny detail : Unlike Argentina, Chile ALWAYS RESPECT the agreements, laws and conventions, and doesn't erase with the elbow what was written with the hand two minutes earlier. That makes a very BIG difference.

Like Pinochet and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: 757gb
Posted 2012-10-03 09:26:36 and read 6964 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 48):
Go ask the management of PLUNA how much LAN's pricing on connecting itineraries affected them, or how LAN acts to block route requests in Peru of the Peruvuan startups for international flights.

As Gonzalo mentioned PU had plenty of people messing them up. I am not familiar with issues regarding LAN's pricing. I CAN tell you however that PU was able to fly domestic routes within Chile without any kind of hassle. Open skies exactly meant that. Clear rules, and folks who honor those rules. THAT IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE. I get tired of reading how the K way of doing things is what it is and we should just get used to it.

LAN is the most notorious victim of that policy but I don't see this as a "Poor LAN" thread. It is obvious that if you list all the garbage regarding the policy LAN's name will come up again and again. So did Pluna when it existed, and so does BQB today and any eventual new carrier that could conceivably be created on the MVD side. THE MAIN factor discouraging companies from participating in the auction of PU's planes a few days ago (besides the high price of the airplanes) was that the business case is pretty much lost because AR took over all of the best slots and it's going to be a hard, very much uphill battle to obtain convenient slots again. Even BQB's Lopez Mena didn't even try (pretty slick operator if you ask me).

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-03 09:31:58 and read 6961 times.

Quoting 757gb (Reply 43):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 40):
LATAM will add three new daily flights into MVD soon.

Is that from SCL?

LA will increase frequency on the SCL-MVD route from 14x weekly up to 22x weekly and will deploy the B763 on the route on certain days for the high season. TAM will increase frequency on the GRU-MVD route to 3x daily later this month and will launch GIG-MVD daily.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: 757gb
Posted 2012-10-03 09:38:33 and read 6939 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 54):

Thanks

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-03 10:42:03 and read 6874 times.

Quoting kiramakora (Reply 52):
Like Pinochet and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

Completely Off Topic. I'm referring to the facts of today, not 40 years ago. We honor the international rules since the return to democracy, in 1990, and since then we fight the corruption being consistently the N° 1 for the region in terms of Transparency ( See Transparency.org ) . That includes trade, investments and the like. That includes all the economic activities, and specially those ( like aviation ) where there are bilateral agreements like open skies, which must be honored.

If you still don't get the picture, ask yourself why Apple, the biggest company of the World, changed their mind regarding having their Latin American HQ in Argentina, and had announced today that they will be building their LA-HQ in Chile.

Good Luck.

Rgds.

G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-10-03 13:21:09 and read 6770 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 56):
If you still don't get the picture, ask yourself why Apple, the biggest company of the World, changed their mind regarding having their Latin American HQ in Argentina, and had announced today that they will be building their LA-HQ in Chile.

Well, I don't know what the level of corruption is in Chile at a large scale, but as a small example of what I do know; try bribe a policeman in Cihle and you'll see what happens. Try not to bribe one in Argentina and you'll see what happens.

If this can be appiled to a greater scale, well .. 'nough said.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: g500
Posted 2012-10-03 13:29:58 and read 6768 times.

Quoting kiramakora (Reply 52):
Like Pinochet and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

a bit too much, no reason to go there, we're talking airlines here

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-03 13:47:22 and read 6743 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 57):
If this can be appiled to a greater scale, well .. 'nough said.

Fortunately, the answer is yes, at greater scale the corruption is low too. There are some cases here and there, but usually they are discovered and investigated....and people involved usually gets severe punishments. There were even TV Shows with hidden cameras hunting this kind of things ( and no one tries to close the TV station, no matter who's involved... try that with Mr Bodou ).

This is not a "chauvinist perception" of mine, it is controlled by Transparency International. If you take a look into this MAP of T.I., , you will see Chile in the position N° 22, surrounded by UK ( 18 ), Belgium ( 19 ), Ireland ( 21 ), Qatar ( 23 ) and United States ( 24 ). To find Argentina you must go to the position N° 100, surrounded by Swaziland, Tonga ( 98/99 ), and Benin and Burkina Faso ( sharing the 100 with Argentina ).

Map :

http://diarioelpopular.com/wp-conten...s/2011/12/mapa-corrupci%C3%B3n.jpg

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-10-03 13:51:20 and read 6737 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 59):
To find Argentina you must go to the position N° 100, surrounded by Swaziland, Tonga ( 98/99 ), and Benin and Burkina Faso ( sharing the 100 with Argentina ).

I'm sure that for CFK, this list is made by the evil media corporations that want to provoke a coup ...

Thanks for the list Gonzalo, although I sadly have to say that I'm not surprised at the result. Argentina's biggest problem is, was, and will be corruption. If the day will come when that can be solved, I'm sure everything wil improve.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: argiepilot
Posted 2012-10-03 14:57:21 and read 6684 times.

Jajajajaja. Indeed we have very vigilant neighbours always worried about what happens at Argentina. We also have fellow countrymen wishing they were linving in Chile. Whether you like it or not this government was elected by a vast majority. Of course you are entitled to criticize. I am glad that they saved AR from being devastated by Spanish hands. I am also glad on how many other things were handled -although not all. Regarding aviation I really hope that local ownership of aviation companies be enforced in the near future. Am I mistaken or the majority owners of LAN Argentina are a bunch of lawyers that work for them in Argentina. Of course that is just on paper. Then go speaking out loud about LAN abiding the law!! Go figure!

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: dcajet
Posted 2012-10-04 14:14:48 and read 6379 times.

Oh... look... here is Gonzalo's weekly post bashing Argentina. Seriously, you have become a broken record... Freud would have had a field day with your fascination with all things Argentina.

While I do not condone or support the policies that Argentina is enacting, LAN is free to pack up and leave if it is having its feelings hurt in Argentina. But apparently there are profits to be had... And please inform yourself about some of LAN's not so squeaky clean practices when setting up clone airlines in other countries (check who the paper owners of LAN Argentina are), or how it fights tooth and nail to preserve its near monopoly in Peru, often times with questionable means.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-04 15:40:27 and read 6275 times.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 62):
Oh... look...

It is really funny how some people react when is confronted with unpleasant facts. If all this analysis were about an airline in Malaysia, Nigeria or Burundi, all the replies will be probably regarding the facts and some speculation about causes and next moves, but probably no one will attack the messenger. But it is clear that the Argentine pride has some very sensitive "lawyers" ( fighting for the cause around the world ? ), and one more time, the problem to solve here, is not the bad practices of the authorities, or the rules and agreements broken, or the lack of shame to take measures in violation of the law. No . The problem to solve here is how to attack and shut up this man who post a thread every week in the forum.      

Get used to it. I will stop the "thread every week " when the things change. And if the problems are the next year in Uruguay, Chile, Australia or Zimbabwe, I will be posting here too. Don't like ? Don't read.


Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: argiepilot
Posted 2012-10-04 16:18:13 and read 6233 times.

Gonzalo. I read your posts but I do not agree with your thoughts or points of views regarding the topics discussed in this and similar threads. It is just a matter of confronting ideas. Incidentally, I see nothing wrong in people being pride of their countries for whatever reason they may have. Your anger against the government or Argentina is completely understandable. I would begin to worry if foreign companies and governments were happy and praising our government. We all remember how things turned out when that happened. Not anymore for now. It is best if each one takes care of protecting its own interests.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: sciurusmdg
Posted 2012-10-04 18:30:54 and read 6141 times.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 62):
Oh... look... here is Gonzalo's weekly post bashing Argentina. Seriously, you have become a broken record... Freud would have had a field day with your fascination with all things Argentina.

Sorry, but these post are not Argentina bashing... they are a summary of what schemes AR , and the government have come up with to keep the airline running this week. It also affects anyone in the Southern Cone of Latin America, and therefore is not a fascination, but a fact.

Oh, and I speak of this from being:
a.) In the Aviation industry,
b.) Living in Buenos Aires,
c.) Being Argentine.

So, thank you Gonzalo for bringing these up for discussion on a public debate forum. Glad someone does.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-04 18:47:19 and read 6123 times.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 62):
But apparently there are profits to be had... And please inform yourself about some of LAN's not so squeaky clean practices when setting up clone airlines in other countries (check who the paper owners of LAN Argentina are), or how it fights tooth and nail to preserve its near monopoly in Peru, often times with questionable means.

Setting up clone airlines in other countries? What a fabrication. LAN is a transparent carrier that is publicly traded on various stock exchanges. Also, LAN Perú does not have a near monopoly in the Peruvian market. Other Peruvian carriers are growing rapidly in that market. Meanwhile the ANAC has denied two Peruvian carriers from operating into three airports in Argentina...

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: argiepilot
Posted 2012-10-04 19:52:56 and read 6038 times.

To the Argentine involved in aviation: Why should Argentina's concern be how others are affected in the Southern Cone? Do you think that Chile, Brasil, Colombia, and other governments' main concerns are pleasing their neighbours or other countries or their companies. I don't think so. LAN has the sovereing airspace of Chile to exploit and conduct bussiness in. Let me remind you that AR is running because a law passed by a vast manority of the elected Congress Argentina so establishes it. So YES the government should take meassures to run the company. We are not living in the nineties anymore.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: sciurusmdg
Posted 2012-10-04 19:53:17 and read 6033 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 66):
Setting up clone airlines in other countries? What a fabrication.

I was about to edit my post to say exactly that... thanks for taking the words out of my mouth. Why attack an airline that has a very good business record and has, quite literally, all of its details publicly available. It would be similar to attacking BA Openskies for setting up in France.

Then again, the ignorance of people who comment with few concrete facts never ceases to amaze me.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: sciurusmdg
Posted 2012-10-04 19:56:23 and read 6035 times.

Quoting argiepilot (Reply 67):
Why should Argentina's concern be how others are affected in the Southern Cone?

I was not saying that it is Argentina's concern how others are affected, but that it is relevant to anyone in the Southern Cone how Argentina acts, so therefore a Chilean has a right to have an opinion and comment on what is going on in this region... sorry if I wasn't clear.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: AR385
Posted 2012-10-04 20:42:57 and read 5988 times.

Gonzalo,

Please try to understand this. You are seeing AR as a company established in an economy that runs in a free market.

Argentina, as I explained in my response 34, is not longer such an economy. Argentina works with an economic model that was in vogue in the 70s and part of the 80s in many parts of the world. Specially Latin America. México started to change that in the mid 80s, when we realized it did not work anymore. The model is called the "Import Substitution Model Economy" within the context of a Populist, Corporativist and Protectionist State.

It was very painful but we managed to turn around everything and become a Free Market Economy. Even implementing NAFTA and Free Market Agreements all over the world, Chile being one of the more successful and oldest.

Other countries, like Argentina, Bolivia, and Ecuador tried it in the 90s for example. They decided it was not for them. Argentina particularly suffered a lot during the 90s.

Argentina with the Ks decided to go back and become what Mexico was in the 70s. Within that context, certain state companies are symbols of that model. In the case of Argentina, AR and YPF, for example, due to the Corporativist characterstic of such model. But it wasn´t a single person who chose that road. The Argentines voted for that type of economy. Unlike Cuba, for example.

Add to that the problems Argentina faces to get hard currency and it becomes a little bit clearer why they are so protective and take what the outside world sees as crazy measures.

I don´t mind you starting your threads. But it seems you don´t understand the situation. Let me use an analogy. It´s like I walk into an Haute Cuisine French restaurant and get all worked up because they won´t bring me a Big Mac.
I am simply not understanding something.

Within this context, AR will continue to play dirty. It´s part of the model. And AR is very symbolic of Argentina. Will things change? Sure. I don´t think Argentina´s current economy is sustainable in the medium run. They are heading towards bankruptcy head first. I can´t imagine the pain that will bring though.

My two cents Gonzalo, nothing personal.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-04 21:04:33 and read 5971 times.

Quoting argiepilot (Reply 64):
Gonzalo. I read your posts but I do not agree with your thoughts or points of views regarding the topics discussed in this and similar threads. It is just a matter of confronting ideas.

Nothing wrong with that. I will gladly accept every opinion diverging of mine, if exposed with respect like you do. I don't accept that some others try to eliminate my right as a member of the forum to open a thread regarding an issue that I think deserves a discussion.

Quoting argiepilot (Reply 64):
I see nothing wrong in people being pride of their countries for whatever reason they may have.

I think the same, the problem is, for some, being so proud makes him to deny hard facts, easily knowledgeable just having an Internet connection.

Quoting argiepilot (Reply 64):
Your anger against the government or Argentina is completely understandable.

I'm glad you perceive that my motive here is to discuss the ( wrong and unfair IMHO ) decisions of the Arg. Gov., and not to criticize the people of Argentina in general. I have really beautiful memories from my trips across Argentina and I have the highest level of respect for the average people of Argentina.... I can't say the same about the politics.

Quoting sciurusmdg (Reply 65):
It also affects anyone in the Southern Cone of Latin America, and therefore is not a fascination, but a fact.

Exactly !!!! Thank you for your objective and constructive view. In their hurry to kill the messenger, some others here seems to forget that, the main cause for the existence of this thread, is that there is a government which is breaking the rules of the game in the first place.

Quoting sciurusmdg (Reply 65):
So, thank you Gonzalo for bringing these up for discussion on a public debate forum. Glad someone does.

Your welcome, I hope one day, soon, this kind of threads will be not necessary, and the authorities of all the countries in our region respect the agreements signed in benefit of all our people.

Quoting argiepilot (Reply 67):
Do you think that Chile, Brasil, Colombia, and other governments' main concerns are pleasing their neighbours or other countries or their companies. I don't think so.

I don't see Chile, Brazil or Colombia taking measures that break the rules of the game. That is for now a monopoly of the Argentinian gov.What is the point of having agreements if they will be ignored and violated at the first glance of loss of popularity ??

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-04 21:15:17 and read 5953 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 70):
Will things change? Sure. I don´t think Argentina´s current economy is sustainable in the medium run. They are heading towards bankruptcy head first. I can´t imagine the pain that will bring though.

Things certainly changed yesterday when the police force and military held mass protests regarding the government's plan to lower their wages...Something that is very alarming to other South American countries.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-04 21:22:03 and read 5942 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 70):
I don´t mind you starting your threads. But it seems you don´t understand the situation.

I accept your critics and opinions.... although ( I'm sorry but ) I think you are forgetting one thing. Argentina failed in their attempt of having a liberal economy because never took the right measures against corruption. Argentina has 20 times more natural resources compared with Chile, more then twice the population, and the potential to be a big power not only in the region, but in the continent and maybe globally one day. But since the corruption is still deep inside the political elite, the things doesn't improve.
AR could be a successful company if not used as an automatic teller machine by unions, La Cámpora and the government.
If you have the A340 of the fleet flying empty to carry electronic goods from Tierra del Fuego instead of making money with the plane moving revenue passengers to Oceania, only because you need the votes of the people in the southern extreme of the country, you end up doing every kind of irrational things to compensate.
Argentina could be an extremely good partner for business and a development power for all the region, but the corruption is a real institution for now.... I hope some day the things will be better.

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: AR385
Posted 2012-10-04 21:34:05 and read 5928 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 73):
I accept your critics and opinions.... although ( I'm sorry but ) I think you are forgetting one thing. Argentina failed in their attempt of having a liberal economy because never took the right measures against corruption.

I´m not so sure about that. The implementation of the Free Market Economy brought a lot of poverty and shot up the Gini index, and the middle class took a bit hit. In a democracy tha´s hard to do. Mexico was not a democracy, so we had to swallow all those things. But, Argentina was and voted for something else. They saw the pauperization of their country and it was traumatic to them.

In the current model, "Corruption" is part of it. In a Corporativist state you need corruption. It´s an income distribution system. Believe it or not.

AR won´t go away. It´s too symbolical. Are they wasting money? Sure. But as I said. I don´t think this is going to last much longer.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-10-05 05:21:31 and read 5763 times.

Quoting argiepilot (Reply 61):
We also have fellow countrymen wishing they were linving in Chile. Whether you like it or not this government was elected by a vast majority. Of course you are entitled to criticize

That's generalizing things a bit, isn't it? And if you say we (who are critics towards CFK's policies) are entitled to critisize, why do you say we "wish to be living in Chile"? Out of curioisity, where do you live?

Quoting argiepilot (Reply 67):
So YES the government should take meassures to run the company. We are not living in the nineties anymore.

To run the company asa a monopoly? No way. If we have the possibility of having a true competition to AR, the people that will benefit from this are the customers. Killing competition will ultimately affect AR itself.

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 71):
I can't say the same about the politics.

well said.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2012-10-05 06:42:38 and read 5654 times.

Not sure if it has already happened, but has the Argentinean aviation authorises stopped LA (or any of their other airlines) or any other international airline from flying charters to/from Argentinean airports other than EZE/AEP?
It'd come as no surprise if Latin American airlines flying to Argentina might be studying ways to add capacity without really making all those pro-AR folks angry.

I wish the provincial governments could have put pressure on the Argentinean Civil Aviation Authority so to by pass the EZE/AEP centric pro-AR lobby and at least allow increased or future international service at COR, MDZ, ROS, TUC, SLA..

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-05 06:45:56 and read 5680 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
* Denial of entry to new planes in the fleet of LAN

Gonzalo, LAN will now transfer more A320s over to LAN Colombia and LAN Ecuador.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-05 08:02:00 and read 5578 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 76):
I wish the provincial governments could have put pressure on the Argentinean Civil Aviation Authority so to by pass the EZE/AEP centric pro-AR lobby and at least allow increased or future international service at COR, MDZ, ROS, TUC, SLA..

I doubt that can happen. Regardless the governors can be pro-K or anti-K, the central government can strangulate the provinces economically at their will. There are actually many of them in a critical condition. In this environment, probably the last thing a governor will do is give another reason to Miss K to tight and hold the pressure.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 75):
Quoting argiepilot (Reply 61):We also have fellow countrymen wishing they were living in Chile. Whether you like it or not this government was elected by a vast majority. Of course you are entitled to criticize
That's generalizing things a bit, isn't it? And if you say we (who are critics towards CFK's policies) are entitled to criticize, why do you say we "wish to be living in Chile"? Out of curiosity, where do you live?

I think many of the Argentine population will wish living in Argentina, but having a country more similar to Chile in some aspects of the common life, some day by day situations. I can go now or tomorrow and buy 2.000 dollars or euros, and no one will question why, or where my money comes from. I can say whatever I want about the President Piñera and no one will publish my financial situation in the newspapers. And the most important, and related with the topic, I don't see the authorities of my country wasting 2 million dollars a day in an airline while there are still kids and elderly people living and dying in unacceptable conditions, like Argentina's government does. That should be unacceptable, plain and simple.

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-10-05 08:13:10 and read 5559 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 78):
And the most important, and related with the topic, I don't see the authorities of my country wasting 2 million dollars a day in an airline while there are still kids and elderly people living and dying in unacceptable conditions, like Argentina's government does. That should be unacceptable, plain and simple.

Again, I agree 100%. That's the main point right there. AR, as much as the new scheme is nice, and we all love the 73NG's, is losing too much money, in a country where there are more important needs in where to put that money. Why should a retired person, that has a pension of US$ 420 (try living with that here ...) a month pay for an airline that has a huge and increasing deficit, especially when this person will probably not even have a chance of flying in the first place?

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-05 08:42:17 and read 5522 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 76):
I wish the provincial governments could have put pressure on the Argentinean Civil Aviation Authority so to by pass the EZE/AEP centric pro-AR lobby and at least allow increased or future international service at COR, MDZ, ROS, TUC, SLA..

LA recently increased frequency on the SCL-COR route to 2x daily and the SCL-MDZ route to 3x daily. LA will increase capacity on these routes by deploying the A-320s on these routes daily. In January, LA will resume the SCL-IQQ-SLA route 2x weekly with the A-320. LAN Argentina will operate AEP-SLA 3x daily and AEP-TUC 3x daily. Daily international connections to/from FTE and USH will be available via EZE starting on 01JAN13.

LAN will operate up to 54 weekly flights into COR and 52 weekly flights into MDZ for the high season:
AEP-COR 33x weekly
LIM-COR daily A-319
SCL-COR 2x daily A-320
AEP-UAQ-MDZ 5x weekly A-320
AEP-MDZ 26x weekly A-320
SCL-MDZ 3x daily A-320

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: Derico
Posted 2012-10-06 12:36:43 and read 5152 times.

Quoting SamuP (Reply 17):
Flag carriers are a thing of the past ... some brands have survived, but the rule is they survived thanks to the government privatizing them ... there are examples everywhere. I would love to see the AR brand survive and thrive .. but I am certain this will not be the case if things continue this way. Argentina is a wonderful country and it deserves a world class (privately owned) airline!

Ain't gonna happen. The airline industry is a dead industry, it has no future, no further development. It barely survives today and only airliners that ship around business passengers do remotely well.

My position is known that I want AR to be let loose and let them sink or swim. But no doubt in my mind if AR goes, then LAN will have a monopoly and there is zero chance that a local airline will take AR's place.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2012-10-09 06:42:46 and read 4765 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 80):
LA recently increased frequency on the SCL-COR route to 2x daily and the SCL-MDZ route to 3x daily. LA will increase capacity on these routes by deploying the A-320s on these routes daily. In January, LA will resume the SCL-IQQ-SLA route 2x weekly with the A-320. LAN Argentina will operate AEP-SLA 3x daily and AEP-TUC 3x daily. Daily international connections to/from FTE and USH will be available via EZE starting on 01JAN13.

LAN will operate up to 54 weekly flights into COR and 52 weekly flights into MDZ for the high season:
AEP-COR 33x weekly
LIM-COR daily A-319
SCL-COR 2x daily A-320
AEP-UAQ-MDZ 5x weekly A-320
AEP-MDZ 26x weekly A-320
SCL-MDZ 3x daily A-320

Thanks for the press release.
How many of those flights increases or new services happened because the provincial governments pressured the authorities?
As far as I know AEP-SLA/TUC/MDZ/UAQ or EZE-USH/FTE are not international routes.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: sciurusmdg
Posted 2012-10-09 09:17:46 and read 4645 times.

To be honest, having flown AR this weekend to Mendoza, it is clear why the airline is having a problem... The attitude needs a complete overhaul.

Moments before we taxied, a ground supervisor got on the plane, made a PA announcement asking for a certain passenger to go to the front. Informed the poor guy there was a problem with his ticket, but was cagey about why, and ultimately saying he hadn't paid, kicked him off the flight. Extremely rudely, and wouldn't listen AT ALL to the explanation given to him, or anything else. Pretty ruthless.

Not too bad, I suppose... however, then 10 minutes later, the ground supervisor comes back- bringing 2 of his friends with him laughing and joking- one goes to sit in this poor guys seat, while the other sits for the whole flight in the fwd FAs jump seat. I was in the front seat and saw this all first hand.


I'm guessing, since it was a bank holiday, he pulled some strings for his friends. Shocking.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: travelin man
Posted 2012-10-09 10:54:48 and read 4526 times.

Why do I get a feeling of "Air India" when Aerolineas Argentinas is mentioned?

Granted, it is up to the government (and, indirectly, the Argentinian taxpayers) to forgive taxes and send good money after bad.

But does anyone think that these things will solve the issues at AR? Likely, it will only make them worse.

And for all those advocating the "great" service of government-owned airlines, I'd like to hear an example of just one state-owned airline that provides better service than a similar privately-owned counterpart.

As has been said above, AR is going the way of Conviasa etc.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-09 14:19:56 and read 4426 times.

Quoting sciurusmdg (Reply 83):
To be honest, having flown AR this weekend to Mendoza, it is clear why the airline is having a problem... The attitude needs a complete overhaul.

Shocking story indeed.... but I believe you, I had a hard proof that the AR staff is not very worried about the passengers.... I was in MVD a couple of weeks ago. Our LA flight to SCL was boarding in the gate next to the gate where the AR flight to Buenos Aires was waiting for the plane from Buenos Aires. I was seated in one of the comfort seats that look directly to the runways, watching the rain and wind show ( the weather was truly AWFUL that day ). The screens showed the AR flight cancelled, then delayed, then cancelled. After many changes, without the ground staff of AR having any answer to the poor people waiting, the plane finally landed. A young couple on that flight seated behind me, and started a phone conversation with someone in Buenos Aires, where the weather was also really bad. They were trying to find out the airport where their flight will be landing ( EZE or AEP ), and tell the people on the line where should pick them up. The answer from the AR staff was just incredible, at the point that I almost twisted my neck : "You'll know when you land". What kind of answer is that ???



Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-09 16:00:08 and read 4351 times.

Additional to the taxes condoned for the next year, Minister Lorenzino announced more funds for about USD 52 Millions, to cover the losses of July and August. This announcement uncovers the total consumption of the budget assigned for all the year 2012 ( about USD 530 Millions ), in just the first 7 - 8 months of the year...  http://www.aviacionnews.com/blog/201...ignacion-de-presupuesto-para-este/


Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: sciurusmdg
Posted 2012-10-09 17:36:54 and read 4299 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 85):
he screens showed the AR flight cancelled, then delayed, then cancelled.

Our flight back from Mendoza yesterday, was meant to be at 7.50pm, but at check in "Ask Agent" flashed up on the boards, when we asked, we were told all was ok, and it was nothing. We asked the Airport (not AR staff) and they told us the plane hand´t even taken off yet from AEP.

Guess what... we were two hours delayed, because the plane was 1hr 40mins late taking off.

However, I will say that their new E190s were very comfortable, and the "Club Economy" seats are one of the best short haul seats I have ever flown in.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: argiepilot
Posted 2012-10-09 18:54:25 and read 4267 times.

Many commentators don’t seem to be very informed. I doubt that many of the argentine commentators have ever been or travelled extensively on the country. Have you ever been to the North (Formosa, Catamarca, Jujuy, Santiago del Estero, etc.), or to the South to places like Rio Grande, Rio Gallegos, etc? Really? Do you know first hand about the connectivity need of those cities and people? I do. Or do you comfortably live in Buenos Aires and just complain about your delay going back from your holiday weekend and jump into conclusions about something related to a passenger you do not know about? Many of the foreign commentators also give opinions without really knowing the reality and needs of a country which (like all others) has its own characteristics. This is not Europe nor the U.S. Not even Brazil. This is not to defend AR against all criticism. Many things at AR can and should be criticized and improve, and everyone is entitled to think and express as it wishes. However, opinions should be grounded and based after analyzing the relevant facts.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: sciurusmdg
Posted 2012-10-09 19:39:45 and read 4228 times.

Quoting argiepilot (Reply 88):
Do you know first hand about the connectivity need of those cities and people? I do. Or do you comfortably live in Buenos Aires and just complain about your delay going back from your holiday weekend and jump into conclusions about something related to a passenger you do not know about?

Lets take this down one point at a time.

Firstly... I travel a lot within Argentina...and as mentioned before on this board, I work within Aviation in the country, and the whole of LatAm, so please, don not tell me I am jumping to conclusions or that I do not now the reality and needs of the country.

Secondly...A delay is a delay, which is something we all have to accept whenever we are flying. However, the lack of information present to the check in staff at an "International" airport such as Mendoza, seems bizarre- when it was freely available to the airport staff... either that, or they could of intentionally mislead the passengers...

Thirdly...You are right, I didn't know the guy who was being shouted at on Sat. morning, and as I said, had that been an isolated incident "Not too bad, I suppose...". But to then see the AR official return with 2 of his friends and place them onboard the flight in their place... one in the FAs jump seat, that got my hackles going. None the least, because it is against the law.

Perhaps, argiepilot, you have spent too much time outside the country to see these things in person... I brought them up because the 2 flights I took this weekend, both had issues.

However, the pilots we're very professional, didn't risk safety by turning off the fasten seatbelt sign or letting FAs serve food, as it was a very bumpy flight on the way out, despite passenger complaints... and the seats are extremely comfortable.

But, sadly all that doesn't matter, as the face of the airline is appalling, so no wonder they are losing more and more each day.

(Edited to change the word "HIM" to "THE AR OFFICIAL")

[Edited 2012-10-09 19:49:20]

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-10 04:11:55 and read 4103 times.

Quoting argiepilot (Reply 88):
Do you know first hand about the connectivity need of those cities and people? I do.

Hi, to be honest I don't have the first hand experience you are requesting. But I have questions that maybe you or someone else here can clarify :
Can you tell me why, when 4M request new routes ( sometimes to places in your list, probably "non profitable routes" ) to the Argentinian authorities, the answer was always a big No no ?
Can you tell me why the AR fares are an average of 50% higher to this kind of low demand routes where 4M can not fly ? Is this the way the flag carrier "helps the poor people" in this cities ?
Can you tell me why an AR flight EZE-CTC ( 525 nm ) has a very similar fare compared with a flight EZE-BOG ( 2522 nm ) ?



Quoting argiepilot (Reply 88):
Many of the foreign commentators also give opinions without really knowing the reality and needs of a country which (like all others) has its own characteristics. This is not Europe nor the U.S. Not even Brazil.

That is what I'm trying to discuss here. I live in a country with a lot of problems too. Chile is not Europe, US or Brazil either. But, for some reason, this small country, with half of the population of Argentina, has manged to have a world class airline, and that airline doesn't take money from the tax payers. And we have more flying travelers by year, again, with half of the population. We are not aliens from Ganimedes, we are just humans like any other. Why the big difference ? Do you have a theory that can explain why are the things so different at each side of the Andes ?

I have my theory , and the answer has some clear explanations from the Argentinian side : Corruption ( or Korruption in the recent times ), Nepotism ( putting family and friends in the management positions, that are clearly not qualified for the job ), and a sort of National Pride that makes impossible an improvement of the AR situation. All this at a cost of hundreds of millions that can have a better use in Argentina.

I would be very happy to see your point of view about all of this questions, and share your theory ( or theories ) to explain this with us.

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: argiepilot
Posted 2012-10-10 05:30:43 and read 4025 times.

Gonzalo & sciurusmdg:

Here are my thoughts:

1. LAN is a very good airline and no one can dispute that. It is way ahead of AR, in general. Clearly it is the result of years of good management.

2. On the contrary, AR has been the victim of a catastrophic privatization and awful private management. That was a turning point and you probably know it. Many good things could have been done with the company under proper hands. Ironically, many of the argentines that now complain about the company were the ones celebrating its privatization during the nineties. I, personally, celebrate that the company was "rescued" by the state because I think the country needs AR. Of course, it should be properly managed, but it is just not easy to do it overnight given the state of the company when the government took over.

3. But comparing AR with LAN is just that. A comparison between two companies that, in my view, cannot turn out to be a comparison between two countries. Each one probably has its good and bad things but I am in no position to comment about Chile since, although I have visited it many times, I do not live there.

4. Sciurusmdg. Probably you work in the management field of aviation. In terms of operations you can be certain that there is no way that AR or perhaps any other company disembarks a paying passenger to embark some "friends" as you suggest. It just does not happen. On the other hand "jumpseats" can be used by crews flying under travel benefits.

5. Ahhh, yes, as you know I think LAN should not be flying domestic in Argentina given the fact that airline ownership is legally restricted to nationals according to Argentina's laws. However, given the fact that LAN is flying, I think competition is good and should be allowed to fly more destinations, without subsidies of course.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: travelin man
Posted 2012-10-10 06:51:26 and read 3967 times.

When has government ownership been good for ANY airline?

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-10 07:38:15 and read 3924 times.

Quoting travelin man (Reply 92):
When has government ownership been good for ANY airline?

State-owned airlines are still quite common in South America:
Argentina-Aerolíneas/Austral Líneas Aéreas
Bolivia-Boliviana de Aviación/Transporte Aéreo Militar
Colombia-SATENA
Ecuador-TAME
Suriname-Surinam Airways
Uruguay-Pluna (In the process of liquidation)
Venezuela-Conviasa

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: RCS763AV
Posted 2012-10-10 08:03:01 and read 3906 times.

Well, the empire strikes again. Miss K is leading a once leading economy of latin america down the drain with her retarded policies. I am all against this support of AR, specially by changing the game rules every two seconds to the other competitors. But there is a limit to protectionist policies, and every day she gets closer to large retaliations form the international community and the WTO. This won't be held forever.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 93):
Colombia-SATENA

SATENA is quite different from all the other state-owned airlines in latin america. It was specifically created to attend regional routes to remote places in Colombia which are only reachable by plane, or at most by a boat ride that takes several days. It is our own version of EAS service, not some kind of national ambition symbol with widebodies and international routes. It doesn't compete on any of the trunk routes with the major airlines, except on BOG-EOH where they have exclusivity (the others have to fly into MDE), as so to subsidize their losses on the other routes. The problem was that when the other airlines started offering really low fares to MDE, 9N's EOH arrival wasn't competitive anymore so they had to overhaul their operation. The government didn't make the other airlines raise fares, they made 9N more competitive. That's how it should work.


Quoting sciurusmdg (Reply 83):
To be honest, having flown AR this weekend to Mendoza, it is clear why the airline is having a problem... The attitude needs a complete overhaul.

Wow.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: sciurusmdg
Posted 2012-10-10 08:37:59 and read 3861 times.

Quoting argiepilot (Reply 91):
there is no way that AR or perhaps any other company disembarks a paying passenger to embark some "friends" as you suggest.

I'm sorry, but that is a ridiculous thing to say.

If you think that, then you have been away too long from this country! Look in any of the papers and you will see that favoritism towards some, at the expense of others, is endemic in my country at every level. Right from Boudou and the Ciccone scandal, down to a ground worker at AR.

However, fair point, I can't say for sure if these guys who got on were employees or not. I do know what I saw however, and that was a guy getting kicked off with little explanation and much rudeness to make way for 2 other passengers who know the ground supervisor.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-10 10:00:51 and read 3807 times.

Quoting travelin man (Reply 92):
When has government ownership been good for ANY airline?

Well, if you look the amount of money that the government of Argentina is throwing in AR, certainly is "good" for the airline, at least for the managers.
Sadly, is not good for the country, for the passengers, for the competition,and for tax payers.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 93):
State-owned airlines are still quite common in South America:
Argentina-Aerolíneas/Austral Líneas Aéreas
Bolivia-Boliviana de Aviación/Transporte Aéreo Militar
Colombia-SATENA
Ecuador-TAME
Suriname-Surinam Airways
Uruguay-Pluna (In the process of liquidation)
Venezuela-Conviasa

And the successful case on that list is.........??

Government involvement almost guarantees the failure of any airline, only avoided by a continuous flow of money that always comes from the tax payers. That applies to small local carriers doing some sort of "humanitarian flights" like SAETNA, or airlines that will last less than a month if they are forced to compete with private airlines with a good service and a good quality product. AR is probably the most notorious case,at least in this part of the world ( probably AI could be other notorious case ).

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-10 10:15:38 and read 3784 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 96):
And the successful case on that list is.........??

No comment. However, Ecuador allows LAN to transfer a/c to LAN Ecuador without any issues and to increase frequencies on domestic routes. Ecuador does not block other LAN affiliates from increasing flights into UIO/GYE. For example, LAN Ecuador will soon dominate the UIO-GYE route with 79 weekly frequencies, the UIO-CUE route increases to 16x weekly, the GYE-JFK route increases to 11x weekly, and LAN Ecuador will launch UIO-MEC next year. Ecuador would also offer subsidies to LAN Ecuador to launch GYE-GRU 3x weekly!

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-10-10 12:09:19 and read 3690 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 85):
but I believe you, I had a hard proof that the AR staff is not very worried about the passengers...

On the contrary, the last few flights I have had with AR/AU have had great crews and staff overall. The best example was BRC-AEP where a chaotic situation ended up with one of the greatest ground staff I have ever met of any airline. Buenos Aires was under really bad wheather, so flights were delayed all over the place, but our flight was not delayed because of that, but for some problem. But at BRC, there were 3 or 4 flights delayed, and it was getting complicated. We were travelling with a baby (she was under two years old at the time) and despite the delay (it ended up being of about 9 hrs), the staff at the checkin counter gaves us food voucher (unlimited) and ended up managing to put us in the first flight available, and even gave us an upgrade. Because of this, we managed to arrive home 3 hours before our original flight. Probably having the baby helped, but I can't complain about the AR staff I have met.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 86):
Additional to the taxes condoned for the next year, Minister Lorenzino announced more funds for about USD 52 Millions, to cover the losses of July and August. This announcement uncovers the total consumption of the budget assigned for all the year 2012 ( about USD 530 Millions ), in just the first 7 - 8 months of the year

exactly! why the hell should we spend that amount of money when there is no progress in terms of profitability?

Quoting argiepilot (Reply 88):
Many commentators don’t seem to be very informed. I doubt that many of the argentine commentators have ever been or travelled extensively on the country. Have you ever been to the North (Formosa, Catamarca, Jujuy, Santiago del Estero, etc.), or to the South to places like Rio Grande, Rio Gallegos, etc? Really? Do you know first hand about the connectivity need of those cities and people? I do

Trains would come in handy for conectivity, yet no one seems to care about having a decent railway. And if it has to be air travel, there is always LADE. Why not expand LADE for these routes and make AR profitable?

Quoting argiepilot (Reply 91):
In terms of operations you can be certain that there is no way that AR or perhaps any other company disembarks a paying passenger to embark some "friends" as you suggest. It just does not happen. On the other hand "jumpseats" can be used by crews flying under travel benefits.

As much as I have always met friendly saff at AR, I am sure these sort of attitudes do happen.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-10 13:15:51 and read 3642 times.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 98):
Trains would come in handy for conectivity, yet no one seems to care about having a decent railway. And if it has to be air travel, there is always LADE. Why not expand LADE for these routes and make AR profitable?

Or you can try to open a new route network for LAFSA ..... oh wait.... something is missing here...  

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2012-10-10 14:14:33 and read 3601 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 99):
Or you can try to open a new route network for LAFSA ..... oh wait.... something is missing here...

that would mean LAFSA employees would actually get paid for doing something. Come on, we all know that's NOT going to happen! lol!

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-10 14:59:10 and read 3560 times.

AR/AU will soon change its operations between BUE and SCL.

Current schedule:
AU: AEP-SCL 18x weekly E90
AR: AEP-SCL weekly B73G
AU: EZE-MDZ-SCL daily E90

New schedule starts on 01DEC12:
AU: EZE-MDZ-SCL daily E90
AR: EZE-SCL daily B73G
AU: AEP-SCL daily E90
AR: AEP-SCL daily B73G

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-14 22:10:13 and read 3204 times.

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
Denial of entry to new planes in the fleet of LAN

Gonzalo, LAN Argentina may indeed receive its 13th A-320 a/c by the end of this year, (LAN Argentina has 10 A-320s dedicated to domestic routes and 2 A-320s dedicated to regional routes).

LAN Argentina's current fleet of A-320s:
LV-BET:

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Photo © Marcos Ferreira


LV-BFO:

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Photo © Guillermo CAstro


LV-BFY:

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Photo © Christian Mandel


LV-BGI:

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Photo © Guillermo CAstro


LV-BHU:

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Photo © DAD - Baires Aviation Photography


LV-BOI:

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Photo © Jose Luis Ghezzi


LV-BRA:

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Photo © Christian Mandel


LV-BRY:

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Photo © Marcos Ferreira


LV-BSJ:

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Photo © Christian Mandel


LV-BTM:

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Photo © Miguel Cano Alva


LV-CKV:

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Photo © Armando Flores Ledesma


LV-CQS:

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Photo © Armando Flores Ledesma

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-15 06:12:14 and read 3012 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 102):
Gonzalo, LAN Argentina may indeed receive its 13th A-320 a/c by the end of this year, (LAN Argentina has 10 A-320s dedicated to domestic routes and 2 A-320s dedicated to regional routes).

What do you mean ? It is clear that LAN has the resources ( new planes ) , the intention to expand the fleet, the people trained to operate the planes... everything OK with that.... But when the airline asks to the Argentinian authorities for the permissions to operate the plane they just say NO.... Do you have any information from "inside" about more flexibility to the entry of new planes for 4M ??

Thanks in advance..

Brgds.
G.

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-15 06:32:39 and read 2987 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 103):
What do you mean ? It is clear that LAN has the resources ( new planes ) , the intention to expand the fleet, the people trained to operate the planes... everything OK with that.... But when the airline asks to the Argentinian authorities for the permissions to operate the plane they just say NO....

LAN has the intention to train BUE crews for an additional a/c that will be based at AEP in order to reinforce frequencies to CRD and FTE. So let's stay positive...  

Topic: RE: The Dirty War To Save AR : No Taxes In 2013
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2012-10-15 06:44:46 and read 2972 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 104):
So let's stay positive...

Well, I can try, but with Argentina that requires a BIG, BIG effort....I really hope you are right, since this will add capacity and consequently more options for the flying public.

BRgds.
G.


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