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Topic: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: QatarA340
Posted 2012-10-12 08:10:28 and read 8142 times.

Breaking: Trains or people movers are broken and not working. People using buses instead of trains.

SOURCE:

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...wn-at-dia-causing-delays-thousands

[Edited 2012-10-12 08:13:52]

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: SW733
Posted 2012-10-12 08:17:35 and read 8099 times.

Not on Great American Beer Festival weekend! Nooooooo!

Sounds like a bad time to be had at DEN for the next few hours. My friend is there trying to get to SEA and says it's a bit crazy.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: jmy007
Posted 2012-10-12 08:57:37 and read 7930 times.

I never understood why there wasn't a passneger tunnel to complement the train tunnel, like in Atlanta.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: AWACSooner
Posted 2012-10-12 09:07:29 and read 7872 times.

Quoting jmy007 (Reply 2):
I never understood why there wasn't a passneger tunnel to complement the train tunnel, like in Atlanta.

I have been asking this question for eight years. You'd think that common sense would prevail...but I guess they didn't want people wandering off and inadvertently finding the secret underground Masonic City of the New World Order!

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: KBJCpilot
Posted 2012-10-12 09:55:01 and read 7710 times.

I just spoke with a coworker and they have been stuck in pre-security for 90 minutes. Nobody knows if they have held flights ( I assume the flights leave without them due to schedule commitments) and people are pissed. The airport administration is nowhere to be seen and it's not a good situation right now.

Apparently there is a glitch in the software that drives the underground trains and they have been stopped, or operating slowly, all morning.

Perhaps they will invest in an underground people mover/moving walkway to prevent this in the future.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2012-10-12 10:16:45 and read 7649 times.

Let's keep this in perspective, shall we?

Denver International Airport opened in 1995: it's been open 6,436 days, to be exact. The number of days with significant train problems is less than a dozen -- in fact, I can only think of three or four, but I'm sure someone will correct me on that. That means that 99.8% of the days the airport has been open have been problem-free.

If you break it down by hours that trains have been down, I'm sure that the system gets three or even four nines of reliability. Hardly problem-prone if you ask me. And... hardly worth the investment to build an underground backup system that would be expensive and almost never used.

[Edited 2012-10-12 10:17:22]

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: AWACSooner
Posted 2012-10-12 10:26:37 and read 7600 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 5):
Let's keep this in perspective, shall we?

This was a problem that should've never happened...honestly, they should've had the foresight and done it right the first time.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: SW733
Posted 2012-10-12 10:43:09 and read 7536 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 5):
Let's keep this in perspective, shall we?

Has anyone here blown it out of proportion? I don't see it. We all have perspective - this is rare. But, it's a rare situation that could have been designed around very simply.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: KBJCpilot
Posted 2012-10-12 11:48:46 and read 7386 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 5):
Let's keep this in perspective, shall we?

I'm sure the 30,000+ people who missed their flights this morning, or were delayed, or missed business meetings, or whatever are keeping it in perspective. And I'm sure the airlines that have to re-route people due to DIA's failure to have an adequate back-up plan in place are happy of DIA's failure as well.

I love DIA but when things like this happen, as they occasionally do, it shows the need for redundancy.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: BD338
Posted 2012-10-12 11:52:59 and read 7365 times.

Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):
Breaking: Trains or people movers are broken and not working. People using buses instead of trains.

probably explains why my colleagues who elected to catch the early morning flight from DIA today rather than last nights late one with me have not made it into the office yet....

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: apodino
Posted 2012-10-12 11:59:16 and read 7332 times.

To be fair...there is a bridge leading from the Terminal to the A concourse, so anybody who uses the A concourse should be having very few issues.

That being said, to not build an underground walkway was foolish. But this isn't the only airport where this is a problem. MCO has no walkways at all from the terminal to the airsides. I do not believe there is a walkway to the D gates in LAS from anywhere. PIT has a similar design in a lot of respects. SEA I believe has no link from the North and South satellites. So this happens in many airports. But the systems have been so reliable that you rarely hear of issues relating to this. The problem is the rare time it does, everything goes to hell in a handbasket.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-10-12 12:04:25 and read 7304 times.

Quoting apodino (Reply 10):
That being said, to not build an underground walkway was foolish. But this isn't the only airport where this is a problem. MCO has no walkways at all from the terminal to the airsides. I do not believe there is a walkway to the D gates in LAS from anywhere. PIT has a similar design in a lot of respects. SEA I believe has no link from the North and South satellites. So this happens in many airports. But the systems have been so reliable that you rarely hear of issues relating to this. The problem is the rare time it does, everything goes to hell in a handbasket.

The difference between these examples (except for PIT) and DEN is that malfunctions on a single train would affect only a fraction of the available gates.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-10-12 12:05:27 and read 7303 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 5):
Denver International Airport opened in 1995: it's been open 6,436 days, to be exact. The number of days with significant train problems is less than a dozen -- in fact, I can only think of three or four, but I'm sure someone will correct me on that. That means that 99.8% of the days the airport has been open have been problem-free.

Yes, but those 0.2% of days are a real goat rodeo, aren't they? And as others have been pointing out, walk-tunnels would have been a great backup and would have been a lot less expensive to dig while the airport was being built.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: toltommy
Posted 2012-10-12 12:07:45 and read 7298 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 5):
Let's keep this in perspective, shall we?

OTOH, when was the last time you heard of ATL's train being down? While I'm sure it has been down at times, it's not newsworthy because the backup system is in place. Try that for perspective. DEN has inconvenienced a lot of people today.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2012-10-12 12:11:37 and read 7269 times.

Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 8):
I love DIA but when things like this happen, as they occasionally do, it shows the need for redundancy.

It doesn't show why it would be a worthwhile investment, however. Yes, it sucks that all those thousands of people today were inconvenienced. But it's just not worth it to have constructed a pedestrian walkway that would nearly never be used. It's a 1+ mile walk from the terminal to Concourse C. If the walkway was there, lots of people would still be late for their planes, and they'd be complaining of the long walk instead of the long wait.

In the end, you can't design total redundancy into the system. It is impossible. Problems are going to occur, and they suck. I think DEN has done a pretty good job of designing a relaible system.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2012-10-12 12:25:48 and read 7206 times.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
OTOH, when was the last time you heard of ATL's train being down? While I'm sure it has been down at times, it's not newsworthy because the backup system is in place. Try that for perspective. DEN has inconvenienced a lot of people today.

I agree that lots of people have been inconvenienced today. One day out of the thousands that the airport has been working. Would spending the millions for an underground walkway been worth it to save the inconvenience of a tiny, insignificant percentage of passengers? No, not in my view.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-10-12 12:43:13 and read 7137 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 15):
I agree that lots of people have been inconvenienced today. One day out of the thousands that the airport has been working. Would spending the millions for an underground walkway been worth it to save the inconvenience of a tiny, insignificant percentage of passengers? No, not in my view.

I'm all for perspective, but I would bet the planners recommended the redundancy of a pedestrian tunnel. What I suspect happened was this was one of the features dropped to keep the price tag down, or there was just too much of a faith in technology (and we saw how that worked out with the baggage system!).

Any benefit-cost analysis for the additional investment would need to take into account the costs of not only the passengers inconvenienced, but also the operational costs borne by airlines to delay aircraft or reaccommodate passengers who could not make their flights. This number--over the expected life of the terminal--assuming, say, one operational incident every year--would dwarf any dollar value associated with passenger inconvenience.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
OTOH, when was the last time you heard of ATL's train being down? While I'm sure it has been down at times, it's not newsworthy because the backup system is in place. Try that for perspective. DEN has inconvenienced a lot of people today.

Yes, very easy to put into an Excel spreadsheet in 1990 and label as "nice to have." On the other hand, very difficult to explain the logic of such a decision to passengers in this day and age, when there are older examples to the contrary.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: AADC10
Posted 2012-10-12 13:44:27 and read 6982 times.

The no walkway design was a risk. DEN depends upon the reliability of the trains. The failure could also have been done on purpose to push DEN to the concept of extending close in concourses around the terminal.

Quoting apodino (Reply 10):
MCO has no walkways at all from the terminal to the airsides. I do not believe there is a walkway to the D gates in LAS from anywhere.

MCO has an emergency walkways between the train tracks, so if the trains failed, the doors could be opened and passengers could walk, albeit exposed to the elements, between the airside and the terminal.

IAD does not have a pedestrian tunnel to temporary Concourse C/D but D is still connected by the old mobile lounges and can still go to C if necessary. ORD Terminal annoyingly has a walkway between B & C but no train.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: goosebayguy
Posted 2012-10-12 14:01:51 and read 6886 times.

YOu would think that if the software has worked perfectly for many years then why update it? Then you realise that in China they have 1000's of hackers perfecting bugs to bring down a country's infrastructure and this could be a test of the system! America's airlines could be shut down just by stopping the shuttles!

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2012-10-12 14:08:15 and read 6806 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 16):
I'm all for perspective, but I would bet the planners recommended the redundancy of a pedestrian tunnel. What I suspect happened was this was one of the features dropped to keep the price tag down, or there was just too much of a faith in technology (and we saw how that worked out with the baggage system!).

Any benefit-cost analysis for the additional investment would need to take into account the costs of not only the passengers inconvenienced, but also the operational costs borne by airlines to delay aircraft or reaccommodate passengers who could not make their flights. This number--over the expected life of the terminal--assuming, say, one operational incident every year--would dwarf any dollar value associated with passenger inconvenience.

It's funny you should say that. I'm a planner. And in the absence of overwhelming cost-benefit analysis, I likely wouldn't have recommended the tunnel as redundancy over other methods (dedicated areas to load bus bridges, recovery planning, etc).

This level of operational snafu, best as I can tell from limited research this morning, has happened three or four times at DEN since it opened. Not once per year. Operational costs in this case wouldn't come close to the capital expense of construction, maintenance, and operation of a 1.2-1.5 mile long tunnel. And it's not just as easy as opening a tunnel alongside -- to meet code, for example, there would very likely need to be a fire exit somewhere in the middle (read: somewhere in the middle of the apron between concourses). How would that work? Where would it go? What would that cost?

Plus, what we're experiencing at DEN operationally is really no worse than other circumstances where operations are interrupted and there is no redundant workaround, the most obvious being severe weather. Security lockdowns/reclearances being another. Those are just costs of doing business in the airline industry.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-10-12 15:59:55 and read 6094 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 19):

I whole-heartedly agree with your last point: the airline industry is full of various risk factors and unforeseen costs. And of course it is easy to play the blame game: TSA inefficiency, oil companies, labor unions, management bonuses, etc. all make it a difficult business. Furthermore I would agree that the operational reliability of the automated train system at DEN (and other airports worldwide) is very high.

My point, and I believe the point of others (such as SW733) is that redundancy could have been integrated into the design of the automated transit system at a very reasonable cost compared to the overall expenditure of the airport. And when such systems fail, the operational dysfunction caused and associated costs to all parties involved (especially the airlines) is extremely high.

Using some rough guesswork, I'd estimate that the DEN airport cost to have been approximately $3B in 1995 dollars excluding land acquisition (which should have been at least an additional $1B). Given that the $3B includes the terminal, on-airport surface access and car parking, and airfield system of five runways, it seems extremely generous to assume that the ENTIRE automated transit system cost more than 5% of the total project costs. And what would be the incremental cost of a modest walkway along side the tunnel? No more than 10% of the cost of the entire automated transit system.

Yes, operations and maintenance costs associated with a walkway should be factored into the equation. But how big are they, really? Consider:

1) There should be an allowance for operational savings associated with maintenance of the automated transit system -- system could be closed for longer periods at a time if there was a viable back-up in place.

2) Walkway could be closed for regular operations and only opened to public during irregular operations. This would reduce recurring O&M as well as suggest a reduced capex as level of finish would be lower.

3) The overall size of the walkway would be no more than 5% of the overall size of the passenger terminal.

I agree that it would have cost "millions" extra to construct the tunnel...but that has to be considered in the context of the overall development costs. Moreover, there's a longer-term perspective in that a walkway could help alleviate unforeseen longer-term capacity pressures on the automated transit system. And while the system is perfectly able to cope with existing demand, there are many examples in the aviation industry where facilities are asked to handle things they were never originally designed to do. Two such examples: (1) LGA central terminal building is accommodating roughly double its design capacity at present; and (2) transatlantic 757s!

In summary, would a walkway have been an expensive project? Yes. Unreasonably so (in the context of the overall project for initial DEN construction? I don't think so. Would it have resulted in unjustifiable levels of additional O&M? No.

And it sure would have come in handy today!

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: WN787
Posted 2012-10-12 16:15:44 and read 5973 times.

"The last time DIA had a train situation of this magnitude was April 26, 1998, when a loose wheel on one of the trains damaged a routing cable in the tunnel and cut the system's power, shutting it down for about seven hours. On that day, a fleet of 30 shuttle buses was used to move passengers from the terminal to the gates." -The Denver Post

The city of DEN hopefully learned a lot about what does and doesn't need to happen in a situation like this.

I've been a ramp agent with 2 different airlines at DEN over the past 4 years and all I know is, the buses are HORRIBLE! And that's just for the Airside/Landside operation. Couldn't imagine what a mess CS is having today.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
I have been asking this question for eight years. You'd think that common sense would prevail...but I guess they didn't want people wandering off and inadvertently finding the secret underground Masonic City of the New World Order!

There is NO Masonic City of the New World Order anywhere in the underground at DEN.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-10-12 16:19:39 and read 5948 times.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
Quoting jmy007 (Reply 2):
I never understood why there wasn't a passneger tunnel to complement the train tunnel, like in Atlanta.

I have been asking this question for eight years. You'd think that common sense would prevail...but I guess they didn't want people wandering off and inadvertently finding the secret underground Masonic City of the New World Order!

  

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 17):
MCO has an emergency walkways between the train tracks, so if the trains failed, the doors could be opened and passengers could walk, albeit exposed to the elements, between the airside and the terminal.

Well for one, MCO isn't exactly going to have metres of snow. Second, the Chunnel has an escape tunnel running along the main tunnel so I don't see why the tiny little tunnel at DEN can't have an escape tunnel.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-10-12 16:26:23 and read 5888 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 19):
And it's not just as easy as opening a tunnel alongside -- to meet code, for example, there would very likely need to be a fire exit somewhere in the middle (read: somewhere in the middle of the apron between concourses).

Really? Because that's not the case at ORD or DTW or ATL or at any other airport in the world with a pedestrian tunnel underground.

It would have been as simple as widening the existing tunnel by twelve feet. Or extending the stations so that they formed a single tunnel from terminal to terminal.

One day there is going to be a BIG mess. A train is going to jump the rails and it will take days to remove the wreckage or something like that. And when that happens, DEN might actually have to close to passenger traffic for several days. When that happens, it will cost much more than that tunnel ever would have had.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: ADent
Posted 2012-10-12 16:46:11 and read 5770 times.

Quoting jmy007 (Reply 2):
I never understood why there wasn't a passneger tunnel to complement the train tunnel, like in Atlanta.

IIRC 30 million bucks was saved.

Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 4):
Nobody knows if they have held flights

They don't. Well I imagine they hold a bit and some are held, but the airlines advertise that they don't hold the planes. And it is not the airlines fault you missed the flight, so they really don't owe you anything if they don't feel like it.

Any reports of how customers were handled that missed their flights? Reports of held/not held flights?

Quoting apodino (Reply 10):
To be fair...there is a bridge leading from the Terminal to the A concourse, so anybody who uses the A concourse should be having very few issues.

Everyone has to use the A concourse security when the train is dead. The backup buses for B & C can't leave from the underground train station - they have to leave from A.

Quoting WN787 (Reply 21):
"The last time DIA had a train situation of this magnitude was April 26, 1998,

There was a 64 minute outage in Feb 1999, but the buses were not activated.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: Flaps
Posted 2012-10-12 17:55:22 and read 5736 times.

Although similar, an underground train failure at PIT would only impact O/D travelers between the landside and airside terminals. Connecting traffic (if there were any left) would be unaffected. I couldn't imagine ATL with only trains and no walkway. Heck, at ATL I only use the train if I'm going more than one terminal away.
I've never been a big fan of DIA in the first place. It seems that for all of the hoopla surrounding the facility there wasn't a whole lot of focus put on the nuts and bolts/back office facilities. Too much focus on image and not enough on substance perhaps?

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: AWACSooner
Posted 2012-10-12 17:57:05 and read 5724 times.

Quoting WN787 (Reply 21):
There is NO Masonic City of the New World Order anywhere in the underground at DEN.

Someone missed the sarcasm bus!

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-10-12 20:19:48 and read 5191 times.

Quoting WN787 (Reply 21):
There is NO Masonic City of the New World Order anywhere in the underground at DEN.

1) That you know of... (dum dum DUM!)

2) You only say that because you're one of them!

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: DashTrash
Posted 2012-10-12 21:30:33 and read 4871 times.

Quoting WN787 (Reply 21):
There is NO Masonic City of the New World Order anywhere in the underground at DEN.

You can't prove that..... 

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: cosyr
Posted 2012-10-12 22:02:18 and read 4783 times.

I think one important difference between ATL and DEN is that in DEN there are switch tracks between each concourse. I have probably switched on each one of them at some point, and the trains do not run in a circle. They come in one side of the main terminal and leave from the same side, switch over and continue down the other side, requiring one less train at all times. It would be very difficult to have a tunnel down the middle like ATL does. I don't think an off center tunnel would work. How would you get into it from the Main Terminal? Not necessary between the other concourses. I'm sure buses work fine for changing planes, particularly since very few people have to change concourses in DEN, except for a handful of WN flights. The problem in the main terminal isn't the buses, it's that without the trains, you cut out 75% of your security capacity, down to the smallest checkpoint.

Also the bridge to A almost did not happen. I was told that Frank Lorenzo insisted on it, and have heard it referred to as Lorenzo's Folly (probably overstating it) because it is generally less used, usually unnecessary and restrictive for aircraft. Though I suppose without it there would have had to be some tunnel for customs, so bit of a trade off there.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-10-13 02:24:47 and read 4175 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 5):
That means that 99.8% of the days the airport has been open have been problem-free.

100% of days at LGA are train-delay free.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 15):
insignificant percentage of passengers

If you were stuck, would you consider yourself insignificant?

Quoting WN787 (Reply 21):
There is NO Masonic City of the New World Order anywhere in the underground at DEN.

Answered. 'Sarcasm bus'....  

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: 2175301
Posted 2012-10-13 03:29:04 and read 4030 times.

What about the "other" backup option for problems with automatic controls in trains.... A manual operator station, and the ability to run the trains manually.

I have seen that elsewhere - and while automatic systems tend to be faster and more reliable than "drivers" - in a case like this having a dozen people on staff in the airport that could step in a manually run the trains would have reduced the issue to a short term delay while the trains were stopped by the software bug and the time it would take to get the backup drivers to the stopped trains. There are service walkways in the Denver train tunnels.

This makes the trains a bit more expensive; but prevents problems due to software issues. It would also be a lot cheaper than a rarely used passenger tunnel,

Have a great day,

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: LOWS
Posted 2012-10-13 04:10:09 and read 3943 times.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 31):
What about the "other" backup option for problems with automatic controls in trains.... A manual operator station, and the ability to run the trains manually.

That's not a bad idea...and I'm surprised that isn't possible here. The Docklands Light Railway in London can be manually controlled. If I'm not mistaken there's a staff member on each train who can take over at a moments notice, if the computer goes down.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: stlAV8R
Posted 2012-10-13 05:31:12 and read 3743 times.

I think the real issue that people are missing is there is a redundancy system; the bus. The PROBLEM is that it is activated POORLY! If the trains malfunctioned and they had the buses activated immediately and they ran every "X" minutes and there was plenty of space, you wouldn't even notice. If they had pre-printed signage that could be put out immediately re-directing traffic to the buses as well as using (and I don't even know if DEN has these) the airport information booth people or even some administration people to answer questions, it would not even make the news. The train in ATL goes out or slows more that people know and people just walk, nice but expensive. Although I agree the walkway makes more sense, as long as you have a plan, and EXECUTE IT RIGHT, then walkway or no walkway there would be no issue.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: N751PR
Posted 2012-10-13 06:41:48 and read 3512 times.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 26):
Someone missed the sarcasm bus!

It probably was being used to help with hauling passengers between the concourses today.  

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: rcair1
Posted 2012-10-13 07:13:34 and read 3422 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 24):
Everyone has to use the A concourse security when the train is dead. The backup buses for B & C can't leave from the underground train station - they have to leave from A.

Oh my goodness - that is a huge problem. I had not realized that - I was in DEN once when the trains failed, but only just at the beginning and I was arriving - so I just made it.

That makes any backup system totally inadequate. The A tunnel has like 6 or 8 lines and no queuing system to speak of. Each of the 2 main security areas are much higher capacity.

Any backup system that uses A concourse bridge is not a backup system - it is a joke. Therefore - DEN does not have a backup system.

Quoting stlAV8R (Reply 33):
The PROBLEM is that it is activated POORLY! If the trains malfunctioned and they had the buses activated immediately and they ran every "X" minutes and there was plenty of space, you wouldn't even notice. If they had pre-printed signage that could be put out immediately re-directing traffic to the buses as well as using (and I don't even know if DEN has these) the airport information booth people or even some administration people to answer questions, it would not even make the news.

See above. Even people who have cleared security in the main terminal would have to march back up the stairs and through the A bridge,

Quoting cosyr (Reply 29):
Also the bridge to A almost did not happen. I was told that Frank Lorenzo insisted on it, and have heard it referred to as Lorenzo's Folly (probably overstating it) because it is generally less used, usually unnecessary and restrictive for aircraft. Though I suppose without it there would have had to be some tunnel for customs, so bit of a trade off there.

I use A security quite regularly when the main lines are backed up. When I was there last week - they had greeters at each entrance directing people to A security. The main lines were horrendous. My wife was traveling and nearly did not make her flight - despite entering the line 1:25 before her departure time. I waited because because I did not want to have her stranded if she missed her flight.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-10-13 14:31:14 and read 2947 times.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
I guess they didn't want people wandering off and inadvertently finding the secret underground Masonic City of the New World Order!

One can never be too careful.

If it wasn't for the secret city, there would be tunnels.  
Quoting SW733 (Reply 7):
this is rare. But, it's a rare situation that could have been designed around very simply.

My thoughts to.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
but those 0.2% of days are a real goat rodeo

Too little backup to avoid it.

Quoting stlAV8R (Reply 33):
I think the real issue that people are missing is there is a redundancy system; the bus.

See above. DEN has grown beyond their backup plans.

Quoting ADent (Reply 24):
IIRC 30 million bucks was saved.

Probably paid back in 2 or 3 down days on the train. I wonder how much it will cost to add to the next DEN expansion...

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: rcair1
Posted 2012-10-13 21:04:34 and read 2707 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):
Probably paid back in 2 or 3 down days on the train. I wonder how much it will cost to add to the next DEN expansion...

I doubt it, because I think the 'airport' (as in DIA budget) looses nuthin but face.

I have no data

- but I'm guessing the neither the airport or the airline do anything special for passengers who have missed flights.

Not like the airport pays for your hotel if you are stuck, or your meals, or anything else.

They leave it up to the airline - which probably just tries to accommodate on the next flight. Again - no hotel, meals, etc.
I'm quite sure the airlines treat it as "not our problem" and the airport as "sorry - can't help".

So - the passengers are probably the only ones loosing out here.

If I'm right - suck's, don't it.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: WN787
Posted 2012-10-13 21:22:44 and read 2700 times.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 26):
Quoting WN787 (Reply 21):
There is NO Masonic City of the New World Order anywhere in the underground at DEN.

Someone missed the sarcasm bus!
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Quoting WN787 (Reply 21):
There is NO Masonic City of the New World Order anywhere in the underground at DEN.

1) That you know of... (dum dum DUM!)

2) You only say that because you're one of them!
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 28):
Quoting WN787 (Reply 21):
There is NO Masonic City of the New World Order anywhere in the underground at DEN.

You can't prove that.....
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 30):
Quoting WN787 (Reply 21):
There is NO Masonic City of the New World Order anywhere in the underground at DEN.

Answered. 'Sarcasm bus'....

I know its sarcasm, but I hear it all the time. Although it is funny. See this clip
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-col...ncient-unknown---2012-end-of-times

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: ADent
Posted 2012-10-13 22:36:15 and read 2601 times.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 31):
What about the "other" backup option for problems with automatic controls in trains.... A manual operator station, and the ability to run the trains manually.

The press did mention the trains operated in "manual" mode for awhile, but capacity is much reduced. Not sure if someone can walk on the train and plug in and run it, or if there is a manual mode in the computer system for the automatic train???

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):
I wonder how much it will cost to add to the next DEN expansion...

I think the tunnel is dead now. Something about the space is used by the baggage trucks (which weren't supposed to be there with the automated baggage system)??

Anyways there has been some talk here about the train running at capacity. If they build out C and add D then how do they get the people out there if the train is full now? One solution would be another train tunnel - you could add a passenger tunnel then.

I found an article from 2000 about adding a tunnel ( http://archives.californiaaviation.org/airport/msg08571.html )

Quote:
The underground walkway will be located in the space between DIA's existing
train tracks. Airport studies show the A to B leg of the pedestrian tunnel
would cost about $60 million and include an automated "people-mover" as
well, such as moving sidewalks or a cable car system.

Airport officials do not yet have a price tag for the Concourse B to C
segment of the tunnel and further study will determine if the foundation of
the Federal Aviation Administration's air traffic contro

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-10-13 22:50:43 and read 2590 times.

I was at Denver when the trains broke for like less than an hour. People were going crazy. No backup buses happened. They did fix it quickly for it being totally down but I did miss my flight. People were going to crazy it does seem bizare to have no backup or alternative. Imagine if something happens like the train crashes and they have to investigate why for days or anything similar. It seems like they needed a backup tunnel or how about a walkway like to the A concourse?

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-10-13 23:14:27 and read 2568 times.

Quoting WN787 (Reply 38):
I know its sarcasm, but I hear it all the time.

Besides, everyone knows it's actually under ATL. Coke and DL are both HQ'ed there, so it must be true.  

So, how long did the outage last?

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: skywaymanaz
Posted 2012-10-13 23:47:21 and read 2524 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 39):
I found an article from 2000 about adding a tunnel

Twelve year old article I'm guessing it never happened and for over $100 mil in todays dollars probably never will. Really sad Denver never built this to begin with. My first trip thru the airport was in '97 (Frontier/Western Pacific codeshare anyone remember that?). I really was a little shocked to see there was no walkway in case the train broke down. I noted there were a lot of switchovers so hoped if worst came to worse that would take care of it. I rode the train end to end between flights. I recleared security on the A bridge which had no line, unlike the central terminal station even in those pre 9/11 days. Seems like every few years since then I've read about some kind of train hiccup massively messing up the airport. The design hinders any other backup being realistic. The A bridge security could never handle that many people. I don't think TSA rules would allow unscreened passengers to be bussed across the tarmac from the Jeppesen terminal to a hypothetical backup screening area in B and C. Just having the backup screening equipment would be costly to maintain and you'd lose a gate or two to accomodate it. Although much cheaper then building a tunnel doesn't seem realistic.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: COSPN
Posted 2012-10-14 12:46:18 and read 2292 times.

Old Continental was the one who wanted the walkway to A for the Hub that they gave up on..

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-10-14 13:30:39 and read 2249 times.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 25):
I've never been a big fan of DIA in the first place. It seems that for all of the hoopla surrounding the facility there wasn't a whole lot of focus put on the nuts and bolts/back office facilities. Too much focus on image and not enough on substance perhaps?

It certainly has to be the longest time to get thru isnt it? The security at peak times can be rediculous, you have to ride a long bus to rental cars, hotels seem like they are in a different state, you HAVE to ride the train to B and C concourses and i often wait much longer for luggage at Denver than most airports. I think its the slowest airport in America to either get on a plane or land from one. I always leave more time at DEN than any airport when o&d. That said its probably the single best connection point when you are staying on the same airline in America. Very easy great airport for same airline connections.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 35):
Oh my goodness - that is a huge problem. I had not realized that - I was in DEN once when the trains failed, but only just at the beginning and I was arriving - so I just made it.

That makes any backup system totally inadequate. The A tunnel has like 6 or 8 lines and no queuing system to speak of. Each of the 2 main security areas are much higher capacity.

Any backup system that uses A concourse bridge is not a backup system - it is a joke. Therefore - DEN does not have a backup system.

Clearly this isnt the first time that is another person who was at Denver once before when the trains stopped. I missed my flight when the trains broke it took off without me. They fortunitely reaccomidated me the next day i was on a business trip so i didnt ask for a hotel but i dont think they would have offered it but talk about a joke i can see the plane and theres no backup. The bus is no backup it takes time to convert and cant handle the volume. I physically couldnt get to concourse B to my flight. Did they use the tunnel space for a backup to fix the retarted luggage system? LOL JK

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2012-10-15 07:59:54 and read 2013 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 24):
Everyone has to use the A concourse security when the train is dead. The backup buses for B & C can't leave from the underground train station - they have to leave from A.

This is what would have been worth investing in when they built DIA -- making sure that the bus bridge can operate from every platform to every platform in the event that it's needed through a series of hallways and doors leading out to the apron. Yes, this could be tricky from a security perspective, but it's done elsewhere. Have some signage ready to go but out of normal view, then drag it out along with some additional rope and stanchion to funnel people from the platforms to the bus loading area. Done.

This would have been a much better investment than putting in a pedestrian tunnel: certainly less expensive to build, nearly no operational or ongoing maintenance costs, and it makes the most of what is working even when the trains are not.

Topic: RE: Trains Not Working At Denver Causing Delays
Username: ADent
Posted 2012-10-18 08:19:48 and read 1669 times.

Some airlines charged change fees to the folks that missed their planes due to the train.

See http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/10/1...after-getting-charged-change-fees/ and http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...-upset-over-fees-after-trains-stop .

The airlines says they eventually decided to waive the fee, but a "few" people may have been charged before the policy was decided and the information spread out.

----

And sad news - as predicted by AirframeAS in the older Den thread ( DEN Airport Construction - Rant (by AirframeAS Aug 20 2012 in Civil Aviation) ) someone did get run over (and killed) due to the mess of construction. This appears to be on level 5 where they have two way rental car bus traffic, not level 6 that AirframeAS was concerned about (where the RTD busses are across the busy roadway from the terminal).


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