Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5594268/

Topic: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: nickofatlanta
Posted 2012-10-23 14:10:21 and read 4030 times.

Just booked a flight with AA from EWR to ORD, I was very surprised to see an all American Eagle schedule with not a single mainline flight. How long has this been the case? Presumably, partly a result of the CO/UA merger and it now having hubs on each end of the route?

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: BlueLine
Posted 2012-10-23 14:14:48 and read 4014 times.

AA dropped mainline ORD-EWR last year. I think it was around October, but I'm not exactly sure.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: spiritair97
Posted 2012-10-23 14:24:57 and read 3972 times.

Quoting BlueLine (Reply 1):
AA dropped mainline ORD-EWR last year.

I could have sworn that, when I was at EWR on January 14-15 of this year, I saw a few MD80s land from ORD. There were too many to just be from DFW.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: nickofatlanta
Posted 2012-10-23 14:39:12 and read 3922 times.

Thanks for the responses. Seemed like a ghosttown out there for AA when I travelled...

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: iloveboeing
Posted 2012-10-23 14:39:22 and read 3922 times.

This seems to be the case with many ORD to East Coast markets on AA. I flew ORD-BWI-ORD last week on AA and I was surprised how the ORD-BWI flights are virtually all regional jets now. This, along with EWR simply doesn't make sense to me. Why would AA practically surrender these markets to their competitors and cram everyone into dinky regional jets, while continuing to charge relatively high fares (yes, I know regional jets are high-operating-cost aircraft)? I would think that on a cost/profitability basis, it would be better to use mainline aircraft, especially in markets as large as EWR, BWI, etc.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-23 15:02:45 and read 3830 times.

Makes sense. It's a highly competitive market where AA is up against a massively-entrenched carrier with huge megahubs at both ends. It's no different than United which is now sending regional jets on certain flights ORD-BOS and ORD-LGA. Airlines compete in any given market based on their own unique competitive position in that market. AA faces a far less favorable competitive environment in the ORD-EWR market than it did 10 or 20, or even 5, years ago.

Quoting BlueLine (Reply 1):
AA dropped mainline ORD-EWR last year. I think it was around October, but I'm not exactly sure.

If I remember correctly, it switched from a mix of mainline/CR7 to all-CR7 last winter, with MD80s scheduled to return this past summer, but they never did - it just stayed all-CR7.

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 4):
I flew ORD-BWI-ORD last week on AA and I was surprised how the ORD-BWI flights are virtually all regional jets now. This, along with EWR simply doesn't make sense to me. Why would AA practically surrender these markets to their competitors and cram everyone into dinky regional jets, while continuing to charge relatively high fares (yes, I know regional jets are high-operating-cost aircraft)?

Competition - pure and simple.

With competition from United and Southwest, there simply are not enough passengers to go around to profitably operate mainline jets in some of these markets as there were 10-15 years ago, before Southwest had a hub at Midway. On a purely per-seat-mile operating cost basis, RJs will just about always be more expensive than a larger jet simply based on the cost of a jet being spread across so many fewer seats. Higher fuel prices only make this even worse. However, the offsetting effect is that by constraining capacity through shifting to smaller jets, airlines can keep fares and yields high. Finding the equilibrium between those two forces is precisely what has led AA - and United - to shift so much of their flying in and out of ORD to regionals. Look at United's most recent schedule at ORD - it is obviously larger, in terms of mainline and overall, than AA's - but it's not all-that-much more mainline. United, too, has essentially moved virtually all but the largest and/or longest markets to RJs, too. It's just economic and competitive reality.

What AA really needs, in order to be cost- and schedule-competitive in Chicago against United and Southwest - is a viable 90-seater aircraft. In many markets, including, I suspect, ORD-EWR, that would have an absolutely transformative impact on AA's competitive position.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: usairways85
Posted 2012-10-23 15:30:26 and read 3748 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
Makes sense. It's a highly competitive market where AA is up against a massively-entrenched carrier with huge megahubs at both ends.

AA is down to ~7 flts/day in ORD-PHL with only ~2 mainline. Yes they are going up against UA/US/WN but not too long ago UA/AA offered the best frequency and US was the one flying RJs, now it's AA.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-10-23 16:07:51 and read 3668 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
It's no different than United which is now sending regional jets on certain flights ORD-BOS and ORD-LGA

But unless I'm wrong UA aren't sending CR2s meaning that they are offering F (and Y+). In comparison AA's CR7s are 1 class. Obviously this isn't altogether AA's fault and I'm not saying that UA are inherently better for it, but their RJs are more competitive than AA's.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: American 767
Posted 2012-10-23 16:08:05 and read 3660 times.

I remember when back in the 90s it used to be a 727 or a Fokker 100. Back then when I was flying American from NYC to BRU and vice versa, there was no direct JFK-BRU flight, I would fly to or from EWR instead of LGA just to fly on a 727 because I knew they would be gone by the early 2000s.
Ah the good old days...

Ben Soriano

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-23 16:28:51 and read 3593 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 7):
But unless I'm wrong UA aren't sending CR2s meaning that they are offering F (and Y+). In comparison AA's CR7s are 1 class.

Incorrect. AA's CRJ700s are now all configured in 2 classes, with F and Y, just like United's Embraer EJets used on ORD-BOS/LGA.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: frontierflyer
Posted 2012-10-23 16:32:20 and read 3578 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 7):
But unless I'm wrong UA aren't sending CR2s meaning that they are offering F (and Y+). In comparison AA's CR7s are 1 class. Obviously this isn't altogether AA's fault and I'm not saying that UA are inherently better for it, but their RJs are more competitive than AA's.

AA cr7s are 2 class. I just flew ELP ORD in F.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: tommy767
Posted 2012-10-23 16:53:26 and read 3534 times.

What's funny is how AA used to fly 2x 738 on EWR-ORD as late as 2010

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-10-23 17:05:25 and read 3503 times.

I would suspect that there is a bit of a vicious circle, both for UA and AA. As one airline starts to add RJs to a route, businesses may get complaints from employees about being stuck on RJs. Taking that into account, a business may switch from one carrier to the other, assuming that it can negotiate a favorable deal. So, as regular traffic moves to the other carrier, more flights are switched to RJs.

Going back to the 1980s and 1990s, AA and UA were flying DC-10s, 767s, and other mainline jets between ORD and BOS, LGA, BWI, EWR, and PHL. One friend of mine was reguarly flying UA DC-10s to EWR. Another was flying AA DC-10s to BOS. A friend of mine is an AA pilot. For a good long time, he was flying ORD-PHL, when he was a 757/767 F/O.

For AA, I would suspect that the A319s could wind up working some routes that are now flown with CRJs (say morning and evening rush times), while Embrear 170/190s would handle other flying now done by the CRJs

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: usairways85
Posted 2012-10-23 17:43:53 and read 3419 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 12):

For AA, I would suspect that the A319s could wind up working some routes that are now flown with CRJs (say morning and evening rush times), while Embrear 170/190s would handle other flying now done by the CRJs

If I remember correctly the F100s were a staple on the ORD-East coast flts. I remember ORD-PHL was almost all F100s in the mid 90s.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-10-23 18:00:42 and read 3377 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 9):
AA's CRJ700s are now all configured in 2 classes

Oh I didn't realise that. When were they fitted with F?

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-23 18:01:32 and read 3377 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 12):
I would suspect that there is a bit of a vicious circle, both for UA and AA. As one airline starts to add RJs to a route, businesses may get complaints from employees about being stuck on RJs. Taking that into account, a business may switch from one carrier to the other, assuming that it can negotiate a favorable deal. So, as regular traffic moves to the other carrier, more flights are switched to RJs.

Yes. Although the last ten years has shown us that in and out of ORD, consumers now have less and less choice if they want to avoid RJs. Outside of hubs, major O&D markets or longer flights, RJs are now the norm almost everywhere. Look at all the places AA flies RJs today where it used to fly mainline. It's a lot of places. But - look at United's schedules in those same markets. Outside of a relatively small number of exceptions, United is often also flying RJs. The two have steadily followed each other down the RJ path at ORD, and thus in some cases Southwest is actually now the only airline flying from Chicago to some places on mainline-size jets anymore.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 12):
Going back to the 1980s and 1990s, AA and UA were flying DC-10s, 767s, and other mainline jets between ORD and BOS, LGA, BWI, EWR, and PHL. One friend of mine was reguarly flying UA DC-10s to EWR. Another was flying AA DC-10s to BOS.

Yep. But, of course, it was a lot easier back in the 1980s and 1990s for AA and UA to fill DC10s and 767s on these shorter domestic routes because there was so much less competition. Back then, there was no Southwest, JetBlue, etc. in many of these markets, fare competition was less intense, and fuel was much cheaper. The legacy airlines today - all of them - made the conscious decision years ago to dramatically reduce capacity in all but their highest-yielding and most-dominant fortress hubs and reap the profits of lower capacity, less competition and higher yields (essentially trading market share for yield). It didn't work that well 10 years ago when the legacies would pull capacity out and AirTran, Frontier, JetBlue and Southwest would go right in behind them and add it back in, but now those low-fare airlines are also not nearly as low-cost and nimble of carriers as they once were, and are also beginning to behave more like legacies in terms of capacity restraint and less emphasis on market share.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 13):
If I remember correctly the F100s were a staple on the ORD-East coast flts. I remember ORD-PHL was almost all F100s in the mid 90s.

  

The F100 was AA's default aircraft on virtually all of the prime ORD-Northeast routes with the exception of LGA. Just about every other Northeast route (BOS, BDL, HPN, EWR, PHL, DCA, IAD, ALB, ROC, SYR, BUF) was either partly or predominantly F100. There were only a few that seemed to more regularly keep predominantly MD80s (PVD, ironically often being one of them) or later 737s.

[Edited 2012-10-23 18:05:35]

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: Acey559
Posted 2012-10-23 20:06:34 and read 3177 times.

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 4):
I flew ORD-BWI-ORD last week on AA

Which day, if you don't mind me asking? I flew a BWI turn on Saturday.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: American 767
Posted 2012-10-23 20:16:12 and read 3149 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 12):
For AA, I would suspect that the A319s could wind up working some routes that are now flown with CRJs (say morning and evening rush times), while Embrear 170/190s would handle other flying now done by the CRJs

I don't think AA, neither mainline nor Eagle, ordered the E170/190 did they?

Quoting commavia (Reply 15):
The F100 was AA's default aircraft on virtually all of the prime ORD-Northeast routes with the exception of LGA. Just about every other Northeast route (BOS, BDL, HPN, EWR, PHL, DCA, IAD, ALB, ROC, SYR, BUF) was either partly or predominantly F100.

ORD-DTW also saw the F100 during the 90s and early 2000s, and I believe ORD-MSP and ORD-BNA also.
ALB...yes...I remember very well. In 1993 when I was still an RPI student, I flew ALB-ORD on a F100. The airplane was brand new then.
Didn't American have options for 75 more of those?

Ben Soriano

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: iloveboeing
Posted 2012-10-23 20:28:19 and read 3120 times.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 16):
Which day, if you don't mind me asking? I flew a BWI turn on Saturday.

It was on Tuesday, the 16th. I flew from BWI to ORD and then continued home to SGF (both flights were regional jets).

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-10-23 20:49:39 and read 3093 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
What AA really needs, in order to be cost- and schedule-competitive in Chicago against United and Southwest - is a viable 90-seater aircraft. In many markets, including, I suspect, ORD-EWR, that would have an absolutely transformative impact on AA's competitive position.

Agree 100%. And if that plane had transcon capabilities, I could see AA using it on EWR-LAX too.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: Acey559
Posted 2012-10-23 21:40:50 and read 3017 times.

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 18):

Ah wasn't me then. Other than being RJs the whole way, I hope we took care of you.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-10-23 22:42:22 and read 2953 times.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 17):
I don't think AA, neither mainline nor Eagle, ordered the E170/190 did they?

No AMR carrier has ordered any jets between the CRJ 700 and the A319, yet. According to a friend of mine, AMR has been "kicking the tires" on the larger Embrears for some time. Also, 2 or 3 years ago, Gerard Arpey made a comment during an earnings call about the potential of the Canadair C-Series.

My guess is that AMR will either look at buying Embrears or contracting with a regional carrier to use the 170 and/or 190, after it gets a contract with the APA.

Quoting commavia (Reply 15):
The F100 was AA's default aircraft on virtually all of the prime ORD-Northeast routes with the exception of LGA. Just about every other Northeast route (BOS, BDL, HPN, EWR, PHL, DCA, IAD, ALB, ROC, SYR, BUF) was either partly or predominantly F100. There were only a few that seemed to more regularly keep predominantly MD80s (PVD, ironically often being one of them) or later 737s.

Most of those routes you listed often had a combination for F100s, MD-80s, 757s, and even 722s during the 1990s. Smaller cities, such as ALB, ROC, SYR, HPN, GRR, and RST were pretty much all Fokkers. As the 722 fleet downsized and moved to MIA, the 738s started flying ORD routes, often with MD-80s and Fokkers.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2012-10-24 07:12:12 and read 2713 times.

I have no doubt that once AA exits BK and starts taking their new planes, we will see more mainline back to the East coast form ORD.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2012-10-24 08:08:25 and read 2653 times.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 17):
ALB...yes...I remember very well. In 1993 when I was still an RPI student, I flew ALB-ORD on a F100. The airplane was brand new then.

Towards the end of mainline service at ALB, as well as 2000, ALB was a Maddog station as well.

Topic: RE: AA: All American Eagle EWR-ORD Since When?
Username: usairways85
Posted 2012-10-24 08:39:26 and read 2622 times.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 21):
Most of those routes you listed often had a combination for F100s, MD-80s, 757s, and even 722s during the 1990s. Smaller cities, such as ALB, ROC, SYR, HPN, GRR, and RST were pretty much all Fokkers. As the 722 fleet downsized and moved to MIA, the 738s started flying ORD routes, often with MD-80s and Fokkers.

But at the time the F100s & 722s left it was either an ERJ or an MD80/738. That is a huge seat difference. So AA struggled to maintain frequency & capacity. In the past 5 years as UA/US/DL have all used CR7, CR9, 170, 175, 190s, A319, 73Gs to serve key routes during offpeak times or provide 2 cabin service to 2nd tier cities AA is still struggling with just the CR7 and MD80/738.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/