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Topic: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: Barney Captain
Posted 2012-11-06 12:56:48 and read 8831 times.

I'm hearing rumours that WN has recently gotten on board with a more "787-esque" overhead panel design and possibly other ergonomic improvements. Has anyone "in the know" heard anything that supports this? All we've been hearing up until recently is that minimal/no improvements were being considered to keep design costs to a minimum. I'm hoping that has changed.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-11-06 13:14:38 and read 8865 times.

A friend of mine has been a 738 captain with AA for 3 years, having been and F/O and Captain on 757/767 for a total of 15 years. He has said that the overhead panel on the 737NG was more like that of the 727 (which he flew as F/E and F/O for 5 years) than the 757.

His understanding is that WN wanted all pilots to be checked out on the 737 Classic (-200, -300, and -500) and the 737NG (-700). Uncertain that the FAA would allow that with significantly different cockpits, WN (as a launch customer) got Boeing to install a panel that was similar to the 737 Classic.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: KC135Hydraulics
Posted 2012-11-06 13:18:47 and read 8858 times.

I also know that the WN cockpits have their digital engine displays layed out on the MFD (or whatever Boeing calls their center engine display) in such a manner that they are in the same position as if they were on a 737 Classic, presumably for type rating purposes.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: Barney Captain
Posted 2012-11-06 13:20:38 and read 8848 times.

Ckfred,

Your friend is correct. But as stated, we're hearing rumours that very recently, that mentality wrt the MAX my have changed. All the press I can find on the subject states minimal changes planned - but I'm hoping that has changed as well.

[Edited 2012-11-06 13:22:42]

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: Aesma
Posted 2012-11-06 13:33:44 and read 8843 times.

I thought it wasn't about costs but rather commonality with older 737s ?

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: PassedV1
Posted 2012-11-06 14:37:58 and read 8843 times.

The option is called "Dials On Glass" and saves a grand total of ZERO hours of training. Alaska pilots switch between dials and glass (777 esque, not the SWA/Old CAL kind) on a daily basis and the FAA gives you no credit for having the "Dials on Glass" option installed. This is definetly one of those situations that regulation is making flying less save. The NG shold have/could have had an overhead panel more like a 777 then a 727. I guess the FAA doesn't think that pilots can be counted on to adjust between pushing a button or flipping a switch. I hope this rumor is true.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: Cactus739
Posted 2012-11-06 15:01:14 and read 8843 times.

So did anyone actually read the thread title?

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: capri
Posted 2012-11-06 16:27:57 and read 8843 times.

Talking about improvements?? I get a feeling that the launch customer with big orders is the one who dictates, is it true??? Does that mean that WN will not change 737max cockpit???

Slightly off topic, is there a scientific evidence that crews can't fly uncommon cockpits, let's say 744 and 777 in same monthly schedule, or a 737 classic. efis, and ng???

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: Barney Captain
Posted 2012-11-06 16:35:23 and read 8843 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 7):
Does that mean that WN will not change 737max cockpit???

Precisely why I raised the question in my OP. Rumour has it WN now WANTS the change - I'm looking confirmation.

Quoting capri (Reply 7):
Slightly off topic, is there a scientific evidence that crews can't fly uncommon cockpits, let's say 744 and 777 in same monthly schedule, or a 737 classic. efis, and ng???

Not for the 737 - at least at WN. I flew a 2 day trip (5 legs total) that started in an 800, and then proceeded to transition through the 300, 500 and 700.

[Edited 2012-11-06 16:52:12]

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: TWA772LR
Posted 2012-11-06 17:10:07 and read 8844 times.

I heard that the MAX was going to have the same cockpit as the NG. I imagine with some minor improvements such as ergonomics and a HUD.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-06 18:11:44 and read 8846 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 7):
Slightly off topic, is there a scientific evidence that crews can't fly uncommon cockpits, let's say 744 and 777 in same monthly schedule, or a 737 classic. efis, and ng???

Yes. If there weren't, common type rating wouldn't be nearly as big a deal as it is.

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 8):
Quoting capri (Reply 7):
Slightly off topic, is there a scientific evidence that crews can't fly uncommon cockpits, let's say 744 and 777 in same monthly schedule, or a 737 classic. efis, and ng???

Not for the 737 - at least at WN. I flew a 2 day trip (5 legs total) that started in an 800, and then proceeded to transition through the 300, 500 and 700.

But you were on WN models that all have the same display layout, right? You weren't switching between EFIS and PFD/ND systems, were you?

Tom.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: aviateur
Posted 2012-11-06 18:23:53 and read 8844 times.

You want my recommendation for cockpit improvements:

How about a QWERTY-style keyboard on the ACARS and FMS interfaces. It's been how long, forty years?

Do you know how tedious it is typing out a message on a keyboard that is set up ABCDEF.... instead of the kind of keyboard people actually type on?

And while we're at it: how about a pen holder, a side-sill clipboard that you can actually use, and some decent sun visors.

it's the ergonomics, stupid!


PS

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: odwyerpw
Posted 2012-11-06 20:06:08 and read 8846 times.

Perhaps something could be applied that is cheaper to produce/install, cheaper to maintain, asthetically pleasing, but still maintain complete backwards compatability and common type rating. Afterall, not much was done to the overhead area after the eyebrow windows were removed.

Afterall, the 757/767 maintain common type ratings, but the cockpits are not absolute duplicates of one another.
1. I always found this page useful: http://www.757.org.uk/diff/index.html it shows the extent that the two planes differ from a handling perspective (ground & air), yet enjoy a common type rating.
2. Also, The overhead panel is slightly different in each. The air conditioning, hydraulic, and bleed air portions of the panels are slightly different. (credit to: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091125074158AADqOTB).
3. The B767-200s have a panel for Fuel Jettison. B757s don't. The B7672 has a very different maintenance panel (P61) than the B757. The Hydraulic control panel is a little different. Anti-Ice panel is different to allow an added system. (credit to: 767/757 Cockpit Differences (by Ups763 Sep 19 2002 in Tech Ops))
4. On the 757 you have hydraulic isolation switches for the 3 systems going to the tail but on the 767 you can isolate the wings aswell. There are 6 switches one for each system for the tail and one for each system going to the wings.
The squib test lights are different, there is two test switches and only the test switch one will light up the APU light because there is only one squib for the APU. (credit to: B757 & 767 Flight Deck Differences (by HAWK21M Aug 18 2006 in Tech Ops))
If you look at fotos of the overhead panel....they look quite different on many 757/767 planes, yet you still enjoy a common type rating.

So, perhaps there is room to take advantage of newer technology that might push the overhead panel up a critical inch or two to ease egress/ingress into the pilot seats, but still maintain identical operational characteristics? It might not be too far fetched of an idea that the overhead panel could be improved if it cuts costs and maintaince with out violating the type rating.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: zbbylw
Posted 2012-11-06 20:20:37 and read 8846 times.

Quoting aviateur (Reply 11):
And while we're at it: how about a pen holder, a side-sill clipboard that you can actually use, and some decent sun visors

Like the bus?   

The flight deck ergonomics of the 320 is simply just that much better. It's 30 years newer in design which isn't something you can blame the plane on but definitely shows.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: Barney Captain
Posted 2012-11-07 02:15:27 and read 8844 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 10):
But you were on WN models that all have the same display layout, right? You weren't switching between EFIS and PFD/ND systems, were you?

We "switch" from PFD/ND displays to the classic round dials yes. Almost an everyday occurrence.

[Edited 2012-11-07 02:42:40]

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-07 05:39:21 and read 8843 times.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 9):
and a HUD.

Good pull. The HUD have been designed and implemented on the P-8A. It would not cost too much to get it on the MAX if pilots and airlines clamor for them.

bt

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: speedbird128
Posted 2012-11-07 07:03:16 and read 8843 times.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 9):
and a HUD.

Are you referring to a different HUD than is installed on the -800?

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-07 07:41:21 and read 8845 times.

Quoting aviateur (Reply 11):
How about a QWERTY-style keyboard on the ACARS and FMS interfaces. It's been how long, forty years?

The A380 and 787 don't even have that (and not for technology limitations)...ain't gonna happen on a 737.

Quoting aviateur (Reply 11):
And while we're at it: how about a pen holder, a side-sill clipboard that you can actually use, and some decent sun visors.

It's already got pen holders. A side-sill clip in the 737 cockpit is going to be tricky...the 777 and 787 ones are great. As for sun visors, Boeing continues the proud tradition of providing them through Jeppesen.

Quoting aviateur (Reply 11):
it's the ergonomics, stupid!

Pilot ergonomics don't show up in CASM therefore airlines don't actually care.

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 12):
So, perhaps there is room to take advantage of newer technology that might push the overhead panel up a critical inch or two to ease egress/ingress into the pilot seats, but still maintain identical operational characteristics?

It's certainly technically possible, although physically moving the panel would bring in a host of new certification testing. It's would be a lot simpler to change the under-the-hood parts but keep the human-machine interface constant.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 15):
Good pull. The HUD have been designed and implemented on the P-8A. It would not cost too much to get it on the MAX if pilots and airlines clamor for them.

What am I missing? The commercial 737 has had a HUD (as an option) for years now.

Tom.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: davidkunzVIE
Posted 2012-11-07 09:10:47 and read 8846 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 17):
The A380 and 787 don't even have that

The A380 certainly does:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Lufth...d=ce48c6b9278d751afaa03366600f7cc0

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: mrskyguy
Posted 2012-11-07 09:12:00 and read 8846 times.

As someone "in the know" on the subject, I can confirm the following:

a) Southwest *IS* pushing Boeing to do more with the 737MAX to take it away from the "dumb" NG to a "smart" MAX, similar in capabilities to Airbus aircraft. This is not opinion, these are the actual quotes.

b) Boeing *IS* listening.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: CM
Posted 2012-11-07 09:21:13 and read 8846 times.

Quoting davidkunzVIE (Reply 18):

The picture you have linked shows is an external QWERTY keyboard, similar to what can be plugged into Boeing models. What Tom was refering to was the CDU on the aisle stand (behind the keyboard in your photo), which has an ABCDEF keyboard on all aircraft I am aware of.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-07 09:49:38 and read 8841 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 17):
What am I missing? The commercial 737 has had a HUD (as an option) for years now.

Missing is my update knowledge of a commercial 737 cockpit 

bt

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: KC135Hydraulics
Posted 2012-11-07 09:50:52 and read 8841 times.

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 12):
So, perhaps there is room to take advantage of newer technology that might push the overhead panel up a critical inch or two to ease egress/ingress into the pilot seats, but still maintain identical operational characteristics? It might not be too far fetched of an idea that the overhead panel could be improved if it cuts costs and maintaince with out violating the type rating.

I think the 727 and 737 overhead heights came from the 707-135ish era. While putting on power in the KC-135 yesterday I bumped my head into the overhead panel and nearly knocked myself out. It's VERY low

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: Barney Captain
Posted 2012-11-07 10:37:03 and read 8838 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 17):
What am I missing? The commercial 737 has had a HUD (as an option) for years now.

Exactly. Even our 300/500's have had them since the mid 90's.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: Barney Captain
Posted 2012-11-07 10:38:31 and read 8838 times.

Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 19):
As someone "in the know" on the subject, I can confirm the following:

a) Southwest *IS* pushing Boeing to do more with the 737MAX to take it away from the "dumb" NG to a "smart" MAX, similar in capabilities to Airbus aircraft. This is not opinion, these are the actual quotes.

b) Boeing *IS* listening.

This is great to read - but just to be clear, you're referring to the cockpit correct?

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: chrisair
Posted 2012-11-07 10:51:16 and read 9108 times.

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 2):
I also know that the WN cockpits have their digital engine displays layed out on the MFD (or whatever Boeing calls their center engine display) in such a manner that they are in the same position as if they were on a 737 Classic, presumably for type rating purposes.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 10):
But you were on WN models that all have the same display layout, right? You weren't switching between EFIS and PFD/ND systems, were you?

WN switched from the "dials on glass" display to the standard NG displays a while ago.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Kevin Boydston



Here's the old look:
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dan Brownlee

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: starrymarkb
Posted 2012-11-07 11:39:35 and read 9074 times.

Quoting CM (Reply 20):

If you look closely at the keyboard on the pedestal you'll see it is also qwerty... IIRC the MDCU is controlled through those while the table keyboards are for controlling the chart/info screens

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: odwyerpw
Posted 2012-11-07 15:48:35 and read 9036 times.

Quoting davidkunzVIE (Reply 18):
The A380 certainly does:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Lufth...f7cc0

Needs a Macadamia Nut receptacle.

Topic: RE: 737 MAX Cockpit Design Improvements?
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-07 17:45:37 and read 9054 times.

Quoting davidkunzVIE (Reply 18):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 17):
The A380 and 787 don't even have that

The A380 certainly does:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Lufth...f7cc0

Like CM said, I was referring to the CDU keyboard. You can plug a QWERTY external keyboard into a 787 too. However, as starrymarkb noted, the A380 CDU keyboard looks like it is QWERTY also, which is cool. I'm glad to see that.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 25):
WN switched from the "dials on glass" display to the standard NG displays a while ago.

I need to get with the times. Good for them!

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 26):
If you look closely at the keyboard on the pedestal you'll see it is also qwerty... IIRC the MDCU is controlled through those while the table keyboards are for controlling the chart/info screens

Yeah, I agree from that photo. Good for them also!

Tom.


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