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Topic: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: tioloko100
Posted 2012-11-03 19:30:59 and read 9554 times.

WE'VE all faced the dilemma when preparing for a flight. How much hand luggage can we get away with taking on board.
If your airline is Ryanair, it seems, you’d better be extra careful.
A Spanish lady got the shock of her life when she got booted off a flight because she was carrying books and scrolls.

http://flyingactive.com/content/49-w...g-book-scroll-off-their-plane.html

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-03 20:14:11 and read 9473 times.

Quoting tioloko100 (Thread starter):
A Spanish lady got the shock of her life when she got booted off a flight because she was carrying books and scrolls.

If this was all she was holding, she does need to remember that most airlines allow one carry on and one personal item. What those specifics are depends on the airline,

but if this was part of her baggage herself, shame on RyanAir but I'm the least bit surprised.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-11-03 21:29:04 and read 9324 times.

Quoting tioloko100 (Thread starter):
If your airline is Ryanair, it seems, you’d better be extra careful.

This applies to pretty much everything related to flying Ryanair, not just carry-on luggage.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-03 21:48:31 and read 9298 times.

Quoting tioloko100 (Thread starter):
If your airline is Ryanair, it seems, you’d better be extra careful

There seems ot be a bit more to it than just books and a scroll. If she behaved as Ryanair says she behaved, then I have some sympathy with the airline. Form the article:

"The airline defended its actions, claiming the woman had become disruptive and "pushed past its gate agents without showing any ID or her boarding card".

A spokesman said: "This passenger was in breach of airport security regulations, and having become disruptive was properly removed from the aircraft at the request of Ryanair agents."


I'd be fairly sure Ryanair wanted to get the plane off the ground, not waste time in a fight.

mariner

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-03 21:59:36 and read 9275 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):

I had a look at the video on Youtube, she had very little with her, I have seen people carry more than that from duty free before. I also saw her boarding pass in her left hand.

Personally this smells like the ground staff get a cut of the fees they raise, and appear to interpolate the rules to maximize their cut. They probably get paid next to nothing, and rely on the cut of the extra fees to make a living.

I remember seeing a comparisons a few years back between a full service airline I think it was BA ,and LCCs like Ryanair, by the time you add all of the fees etc up, there is actually very little between them. What appears cheap upfront actually costs a lot more with additional fees and charges.

Edit : I should add, I think using Police like this is an abuse of power and process. I have not seen anything to suggest that the airline did not provoke or escalate this. If other passengers were equally upset by the events like the person who posted this on facebook said she was crying for the passenger, I think this shows the passenger was only reacting to the way she was being treated.

[Edited 2012-11-03 22:05:54]

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-03 22:32:46 and read 9204 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 4):
I had a look at the video on Youtube, she had very little with her, I have seen people carry more than that from duty free before. I also saw her boarding pass in her left hand.

I've seen passengers with a boarding pass in their hand create a considerable fuss, especially about security.

if there had been a drama abut her credit card - she said "it wasn't working" - then I can imagine a situation developing. I'd get a bit agitated if my credit card didn't work in similar circumstances.

Quoting zeke (Reply 4):
Personally this smells like the ground staff get a cut of the fees they raise, and appear to interpolate the rules to maximize their cut.

The delay to the flight may have had the potential to cost the airline more than the fee associated with this. Ryananir often has tight turnarounds.

Quoting zeke (Reply 4):
I remember seeing a comparisons a few years back between a full service airline I think it was BA ,and LCCs like Ryanair, by the time you add all of the fees etc up, there is actually very little between them. What appears cheap upfront actually costs a lot more with additional fees and charges.

Ryanair is not, and has never been, a full service airline. It states it 's many fees and charges quite openly and does not make exceptions. The vast majority of people who fly with the airline cope with all this just fine.

The times I've flown with Ryanair, the staff have been efficient and moderately pleasant, while strictly enforcing the airline's policies.

Quoting zeke (Reply 4):
If other passengers were equally upset by the events like the person who posted this on facebook said she was crying for the passenger, I think this shows the passenger was only reacting to the way she was being treated.

I don't know that the other passengers were aware of all the facts that led up to this. I surely don't think that anyone here - including me - knows all the facts.

mariner

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2012-11-04 01:40:30 and read 8844 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
Ryanair is not, and has never been, a full service airline.

Ryanair had a business class cabin at one stage, alongside free drinks and snacks in economy.

www.ryanair.com/en/about

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-04 01:54:51 and read 8798 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 6):
Ryanair had a business class cabin at one stage, alongside free drinks and snacks in economy.

True. I'd forgotten that disastrous period, pre-Michael O'Leary and the restructure as LCC.

mariner

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-04 02:04:26 and read 8517 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
I've seen passengers with a boarding pass in their hand create a considerable fuss, especially about security.

Ryanairs statement why the passenger was booted off was because they did not show their boarding pass or ID when they went through the gate. I can see the boarding pass in their hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fFgSPBTHOg

I do not buy the official line, they state she was booted off for breech of security regulations, the trumped up reason I think how they got the police involved. If that was the case, the whole aircraft should have been offloaded, the aircraft checked, and then boarded again.

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):

The delay to the flight may have had the potential to cost the airline more than the fee associated with this. Ryananir often has tight turnarounds.

I would wager if they left the passenger alone, let them get to their seat, the aircraft would have departed on time. They were using the time before departure to generate more revenue, not with a concern of departure time or security regulations.

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):

I don't know that the other passengers were aware of all the facts that led up to this. I surely don't think that anyone here - including me - knows all the facts.

I do not claim to know all the facts either, considering Ryanair has chosen to not mention the hand carry item issue is in my view trying to deprive the public of the facts to make the passenger look like a villain.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: kl911
Posted 2012-11-04 04:22:06 and read 8322 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 4):
I had a look at the video on Youtube, she had very little with her, I have seen people carry more than that from duty free before. I also saw her boarding pass in her left hand.

Passengers should start reading the conditions of their ticket. This makes me sooo tired.... Yesterday I had a Ryanair flight from Treviso to Budapest and an American couple was making a huge fuss about the carry on luggage.

It is simple, so simple... you can bring ONE item onboard, not more, even taxfree has to fit in there...

Ryanair explains this in large bold letters on the boardingpass, and Ryanair sends everybody a special email about this before departure, explaining the hand luggage rules.

How can people still complain when an airline does so much to explain it before the flight??

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2012-11-04 04:45:40 and read 8215 times.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 9):
This makes me sooo tired.... Yesterday I had a Ryanair flight from Treviso to Budapest and an American couple was making a huge fuss about the carry on luggage.

I agree - the rules are the rules, if you don't like them, fly someone else.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-04 05:45:20 and read 8029 times.

She was prevented from accessing the aircraft by gate staff, but she turns up on board with prohibited items. If she's willing to break one set of rules, what else might she disobey. Rules are rules, she needs to learn to live with those or quit complaining when she's ejected.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-04 06:00:51 and read 7916 times.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 9):

Ryanair have said nothing about her carry on in their remarks, if it was indeed the real issue.

Police would not get involved if that was the case.

I have no issue with rules, I do have an issue with the lack of common sense being applied in this case, they were victimising the passenger. It could have been suggested she don the jack, put the book in the pocket, and then she would tick all the boxes. She could then take the jacket off when she got onboard. What has been gained out of all this ?

The American passengers you talk about, how many roll aboards did they have ? Often I see US passengers taking way in excess of even our business class hand carry allowance, some with two roll aboards and a laptop in economy. Often I have seen passengers unable to lift their hand carry overhead, way in excess of the limit. I can understand airlines cracking down on this.

Passengers get enough aggravation as it is with the security checks, the last thing we need is ground staff making it even worse when there is no safety benefit.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-11-04 06:08:36 and read 7816 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
I agree - the rules are the rules, if you don't like them, fly someone else.

Wouldn't matter, the rules apply to all airlines. Ryanair is enforcing rules, not company policy.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-04 06:11:13 and read 7794 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11):

That is not what Ryanair claim, they claim she did not show her ID and boarding pass, we can see her boarding pass in the video. What prohibited items did she have on her ?

I agree rules are rules, they should however not be abused to fit someone up.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: aloges
Posted 2012-11-04 06:25:26 and read 7620 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 13):
Wouldn't matter, the rules apply to all airlines. Ryanair is enforcing rules, not company policy.

a) The rules in Europe differ from those in the US. 1+1 may be a TSA rule, but thankfully, there is no TSA in Europe.
b) "ONE item only, you stupid idiot!" is the Ryanair way of treating paying customers. I've routinely boarded flights on e.g. Germanwings with two pieces of hand luggage, one of which contained nothing but my laptop and liquids - separated from everything else to speed up screening.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2012-11-04 07:33:31 and read 6965 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 13):
Wouldn't matter, the rules apply to all airlines. Ryanair is enforcing rules, not company policy.

No, this carry on policy is a Ryanair only affair (although many LCC's and even some "full service" have similar policies). Trying to gain entry to an aircraft that you've been barred from by gate staff is a different matter, of course.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: european742
Posted 2012-11-04 07:46:07 and read 6838 times.

From what I can see in that video is only her on the plane, therefore we have no evidence of what happened at the gate. Yes you can see she has a boarding pass but how do you know she showed that at the gate or not? She may have pulled it from her pocket as she walked to the aircraft. She has very little on her there but maybe the gate agents took a pull along bag off her and its at the gate. If that is the case then yes I am fully with the airline. It could be she was one of the last passengers, the gate agents saw her coming with a pull along bag AND those pieces you see there to which the airline very clearly states you cannot do and she agreed to that. Then the agents tried to charge her for this extra piece and before she showed a boarding pass and ID, pushed past the gate agents and made a run for it, therefore if she deliberately avoided security checks and becomes disruptive then Ryanair have every right to remove her. Just because she may have broken the rules, why should Ryanair break theirs? This seems yet another case of a passenger its kicked off a Ryanair flight so lets attack the airline without the evidence. Of course it could be thats all she had with her in which case I am on her side but I simply don't know. I heard passengers shouting "Verguenza, adios" which is disgusting, goodbye which sounds to me these passengers witnessed the woman in question being disruptive but of course it could well have been aimed at the guards.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: HOMsAR
Posted 2012-11-04 07:55:34 and read 6740 times.

Quoting european742 (Reply 17):
Yes you can see she has a boarding pass but how do you know she showed that at the gate or not?

Do we even know it's a boarding pass and not some other folded-up piece of paper? The video isn't that high-def.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2012-11-04 08:13:57 and read 6562 times.

She should have put the book under her blouse or in her jacket.
Ryanair seems to have the most confusing and money grabbing rules of any airline but for maybe Spirit here in the USA, it in part causes confrontations like this.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: Dogbreath
Posted 2012-11-04 08:17:35 and read 6521 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
Ryanairs statement why the passenger was booted off was because they did not show their boarding pass or ID when they went through the gate. I can see the boarding pass in their hand.

Are you sure that it's a boarding pass? Besides the video is taken inside the aircraft and not at the gate check-in area, where the alleged problem occurred. Do you have 'facts' as to what occurred at the gate? Please enlighten us, if you do!!

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
I do not buy the official line, they state she was booted off for breech of security regulations,

Again please give us the facts. An assumption doesn't make point of view correct.


Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
If that was the case, the whole aircraft should have been offloaded, the aircraft checked, and then boarded again.

Why?? I'm sorry I don't follow your logic.

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
They were using the time before departure to generate more revenue, not with a concern of departure time or security regulations.

You know this for a fact. do you? Don't know an airline that is more concerned with on-time departures than Ryanair.

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
I do not claim to know all the facts

Bingo!!

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-04 08:44:41 and read 6246 times.

Quoting european742 (Reply 17):

This is what Ryanair is saying officially .....

"Ryanair strongly deny the ruckus had anything to do with luggage restrictions, and claim police were called to deal with disruptive behaviour."

They made an earlier statement to other papers, they have dropped this ID and boarding pass line now as well.

"The airline defended its actions, claiming the woman had become disruptive and "pushed past its gate agents without showing any ID or her boarding card."

A spokesman said: “This passenger was in breach of airport security regulations, and having become disruptive was properly removed from the aircraft at the request of Ryanair agents.”

They have to say this, as you cannot call police for the reason the other passengers say she was harassed.

Neither gels with the passengers that have witnessed the event and posted online. Also if security regulations were breached, everyone is supposed to get off the aircraft, they aircraft gets another check, and then get the passengers back on.

The logic being applied by some posters above, if she had a jacket in one hand, and a cell phone in either hand that is two pieces, and therefore should pay excess baggage. She could put the jacket on, and cell in her pocket and have empty hands. Some common sense needs to prevail.

Quoting HOMsAR (Reply 18):

The version of the video on faceliners is better quality, one can make out the 2D barcode of the boarding pass.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-04 08:54:52 and read 6140 times.

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 20):
Are you sure that it's a boarding pass? Besides the video is taken inside the aircraft and not at the gate check-in area, where the alleged problem occurred. Do you have 'facts' as to what occurred at the gate? Please enlighten us, if you do!!

Why has Ryanair changed their story to the press ?

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 20):
Again please give us the facts. An assumption doesn't make point of view correct.

That was in the Ryanair original statement, I quoted it above.

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 20):
Why?? I'm sorry I don't follow your logic.

Standard procedure, is someone breaches the secure area, the area has to be rechecked. Otherwise terrorists would know if they make a fuss when they get on an aircraft knowing they would get kicked off, and could leave a package behind. Same if someone breaches the terminal security area, the whole terminal gets emptied and everyone re-screened.

As an additional measure airports also hold passengers kicked off flights in the terminal until it reaches the destination, just in case.

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 20):

You know this for a fact. do you? Don't know an airline that is more concerned with on-time departures than Ryanair.

All airlines are concerned over on-time departures, I do not know of an airline more concerned about generating additional fees than Ryanair.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: kl911
Posted 2012-11-04 09:12:44 and read 5976 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 12):
The American passengers you talk about, how many roll aboards did they have ? Often I see US passengers taking way in excess of even our business class hand carry allowance, some with two roll aboards and a laptop in economy. Often I have seen passengers unable to lift their hand carry overhead, way in excess of the limit. I can understand airlines cracking down on this.

Dont get me started on this couple... with 2 kids. On the outbound flight they were in the aisle across from us, with the kids playing very loud on an Ipad or something like that. Both times they tried to sneak in priority que, both times they were send back. But since they now boarded last they shouted and ranted about not being together on the plane..duh..

Anyway, they had normal carry on, but with lots of tax free stuff. And that didnt fit in the bags..  

Oh, and I forgot about the part where they brought a bag full of KFC stuff onboard... cant believe Ryanair staff allowed that..

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-04 09:43:13 and read 5701 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
A spokesman said: “This passenger was in breach of airport security regulations, and having become disruptive was properly removed from the aircraft at the request of Ryanair agents.”

I'd guess something happened between check-in and the aircraft because, from the article:

"...said the woman shouted out as she entered the cabin that she had tried to pay an oversized luggage fee with her credit card, but it had not been working."

If she owed the airline the fee, if her credit card wasn't working, and if she was in a mood to shout out that fact as she got on the plane, I'd suggest there is more to the story than we know.

mariner

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2012-11-04 10:08:17 and read 5650 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 4):
I think using Police like this is an abuse of power and process.

If an airline doesn't want you on their plane and you get on anyway, or refuse to get off when told to, what do you think is going to happen?
She may or may not be a victim, I have no idea, but there's no circumstance where a passenger refuses to leave an aircraft when told to and the airline just gives up and goes on with the flight, not on Ryanair, not on any other civilized carrier.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-04 10:41:21 and read 5362 times.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 23):
Anyway, they had normal carry on, but with lots of tax free stuff. And that didnt fit in the bags..

Oh, and I forgot about the part where they brought a bag full of KFC stuff onboard... cant believe Ryanair staff allowed that.

Stark Inconsistency, I can see how that would be beyond what is acceptable.

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):

If she owed the airline the fee, if her credit card wasn't working, and if she was in a mood to shout out that fact as she got on the plane, I'd suggest there is more to the story than we know.

I find it interesting that Ryanair have tried to distance themselves from that, if Ryanair feels the passenger owes them a fee, there are normal legal avenues available for any business to recover them. Ryanair has not stated she did not have a valid ticket, so she should have still traveled.

As I have also pointed out above there would have been options for her to put the items on her person, and therefore not hand carry, so not fee would have been payable. Also reports in the media from other passengers indicate they offered to place the items in their luggage, again within the rules, Ryanair would not allow this.

Seems there were a number of ways to defuse the situation without having to pay the fee, and I would question if a fee would actually need to be paid if she had the item on her person or let someone else put in their bag.

Using the police to remove the passenger is an abuse of power, it is not what they are there for. Yes she was disruptive, however from what other other passengers have said that were there, only after being provoked.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 25):
If an airline doesn't want you on their plane and you get on anyway, or refuse to get off when told to, what do you think is going to happen?

In the EU, they have passengers rights. Passengers are entitled to compensation if an airline denies boarding. The passenger then has a choice between a full refund and re-routing, they may also be entitled to compensation of between €125 and €600. Passengers are also have to have clear price transparency given to them at the time of purchase, no hidden fees.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: kl911
Posted 2012-11-04 10:45:46 and read 5330 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
I find it interesting that Ryanair have tried to distance themselves from that, if Ryanair feels the passenger owes them a fee, there are normal legal avenues available for any business to recover them. Ryanair has not stated she did not have a valid ticket, so she should have still traveled.

Ofcourse she could travel with a valid ticket, but WITHOUT the oversized bag. I am sure she didnt want that. So it's the pax's decision...

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: something
Posted 2012-11-04 10:57:49 and read 5211 times.

I don't quite understand why everybody here is jumping at Ryanair's defense and why zeke is catching so much flak. Ryanair is in the business to offer a service. What keeps them alive are their customers, not vice versa. The customers shouldn't have to thank Ryanair for transporting them, it should be the other way around. Personally, I would never fly Ryanair because of their business practices. Well, and the kind of people I would have to be on the flight with.

It is nothing short of astonishing to me how subordinate most people seem to be. You as the customer pay those clowns at Ryanair and they have a job because of you. Why would you take anything from them? They chose their career path.. if customer service is too much for them, then they're in the wrong profession. Completely regardless of what this woman's conduct was, or may have been. This is their job.

Lastly, all of what zeke said are valid points. I am not even suggesting the woman couldn't have conducted herself differently and thereby influenced the outcome of this situation, but this is beside the point: Ryanair live off of their customers. If they bite the hand that feeds them, and people are still willing to do business with them, then I think that speaks volumes about what characters you seat-neighbor with on your next Ryanair flight.

Hence why you won't ever find me on one of 'em.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-04 11:04:07 and read 5142 times.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 27):

Ofcourse she could travel with a valid ticket, but WITHOUT the oversized bag.

Only if that is in the conditions of contract, which it is not. Also good luck convincing an EU court that a roll of paper or a book is a bag, they do understand English. The only clear plastic bag she had in the video was not oversize.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-04 11:04:15 and read 5135 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
I find it interesting that Ryanair have tried to distance themselves from that, if Ryanair feels the passenger owes them a fee, there are normal legal avenues available for any business to recover them. Ryanair has not stated she did not have a valid ticket, so she should have still traveled.

I have to guess that the fee issue as somehow resolved, or how did she get the boarding card you say you can see?

The issue then becomes - how was it resolved and how much of a ruckus happened because of it before she got on the on the plane?

And why did she feel the need to shout that her credit card wasn't working when she got on the plane? If the situation was resolved, why say anything?

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
As I have also pointed out above there would have been options for her to put the items on her person, and therefore not hand carry, so not fee would have been payable. Also reports in the media from other passengers indicate they offered to place the items in their luggage, again within the rules, Ryanair would not allow this.

I'm not surprised Ryanair didn't allow it, it's a way to evade or avoid Ryanair's standard charges. I believe there have been several instances of passengers swapping stuff to try and avoid fees - trying to diddle the airline.

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
Seems there were a number of ways to defuse the situation without having to pay the fee, and I would question if a fee would actually need to be paid if she had the item on her person or let someone else put in their bag.

There may have been, I wasn't there, I don't know. I do know that Ryanair doesn't go looking for drama. It has clearly identifiable rules, and if you follow those rules, then usually all is well.

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
Using the police to remove the passenger is an abuse of power, it is not what they are there for. Yes she was disruptive, however from what other other passengers have said that were there, only after being provoked.

Once again, I don't know what happened at check-in - only that something did - or what happened outside the aircraft. I don't what was said, what was done or why the initial issue of the boarding pass - which you say you can see - came about.

But - again - it seems fairly clearly to me that the woman was agitated when she got on the aircraft else why she did shout out about the credit card as she got onboard? If all was well, why say anything?

mariner

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: kl911
Posted 2012-11-04 11:11:33 and read 5081 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 29):
Only if that is in the conditions of contract, which it is not. Also good luck convincing an EU court that a roll of paper or a book is a bag, they do understand English. The only clear plastic bag she had in the video was not oversize.

Two books in your hand, ore one book and one roll of paper are TWO items. Condition of travel, and pointed out at least 200x during checkin online and at the airport, is ONE item allowed onboard. They even explain that a laptop or book etc is counted as one item.

So pax is clearly wrong here. Just follow the rules or dont fly with them, is that so hard?

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-04 11:19:06 and read 5019 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):

I have to guess that the fee issue as somehow resolved, or how did she get the boarding card you say you can see?

Looked like a self check-in boarding pass to me, done on a printer.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
I'm not surprised Ryanair didn't allow it, it's a way to evade or avoid Ryanair's standard charges.

It is not written in their rules that you cannot have anything in your pockets or wear/carry a jacket, book, ipad, cell phone. The carry on rules refer only to baggage.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
I believe there have been several instances of passengers swapping stuff to try and avoid fees - trying to diddle the airline.

They say one cannot pool check-in allowances or swap, they do not say anything about carry on.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
But - again - it seems fairly clearly to me that the woman was agitated when she got on the aircraft else why she did shout out about the credit card as she got onboard?

I would be surprised if the police were so close by, my guess that is only a snippet of what happen on the aircraft, just the last little bit.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-04 11:24:38 and read 4947 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 32):
Looked like a self check-in boarding pass to me, done on a printer.

Then how did the issue of the malfunctioning credit card come about?

As I said from the git-go, there appears to be more to this than any of us know, and I won't rush to judgement - of the passenger or the airline - without knowing all the facts.

mariner

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-11-04 11:27:04 and read 4924 times.

I have read about this in a few local websites and, according to some supposedly passengers, the woman entered the aircraft without showing the proper identification after an argument with the gate agents.

That makes a lot of sense anyway. Why otherwise the woman would have been denied flying AFTER being allowed to board the plane (when in Ryanair you are checked your luggage before boarding)? Ryanair is not afraid to deny boarding to anyone at the gate, that would have been much easier and quicker for them... you leave the "issue" at the airport.

Pure speculation, but more than probably... typical Ryanair boarding... the woman is told that she cannot board two pieces of hand luggage, so is a) she pays, b) she puts everything in one that fits in their basket or c) she leaves the books behind. There is an argument (seen this a few times flying with FR) with no positive outcome (a) b) or c), that's all, she is not going to change Ryanair's regulations in Valencia at 6.00 AM) and she decides to do it her way and enter the aircraft. Even after the Guardia Civil is asking her to leave the aircraft, she argues with them... umm??? I think there is not much to argue when a policeman asks you to leave a plane. Luckily she was in Spain, in the US she would probably had been teased after a few words.

If she entered the aircraft without authorization... what did she expect? On the other hand, I can't see all this fuss with Ryanair's luggage policies. They are quite extreme and annoying, but there are dozens of companies in Europe that would welcome those passengers not satisfied with Ryanair.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-04 11:36:44 and read 4829 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 14):
That is not what Ryanair claim, they claim she did not show her ID and boarding pass, we can see her boarding pass in the video. What prohibited items did she have on her ?

The luggage. It is stated that she tried to pay an 'oversize baggage fee', therefore it can be gathered that her carry on did not comply with the regulations and was therefore prohibited in the cabin. Furthermore it is stated that she could not get her card to work, yet she appears on the plane with what appears to be her luggage. So the gate agents have prohibited her from boarding with said luggage, but she does it anyway - in the process she's hardly likely to have shown them her boarding pass and ID is she, because they would have stopped her.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: musapapaya
Posted 2012-11-04 11:50:45 and read 4704 times.

To sum up, the policy of Ryanair, or the way some peopletry to implement it, possibly to maximise revenue, or the share of pay for particular agents, stinks!

I can confirm all these 'one baggage only' policy, not even a coat in your arm, a bottle of water in a plastic bag, all needs to go into that one baggage. Last time in Stansted and Venice, I got told by the agent about this, but once I got passed, I took everything back out then slowly walked on the plane.

I also very dislike the way they try to push people to hurry up for a on time departure. Sorry to say this but when I am pushed, I act even slower, call me naive but I just hated this.

Hence, I am not flying with them anymore. So it doesnt bother me whether they still grow like 'gangbusters': http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20150776, or they go bust tomorrow.

I do feel sorry for their crew though, especially cockpit crew for the pressure from above which may be putting safety in danger, issues including their fuel policy, and also the lack of requirement to perform a walkround after each and every flight, as we see with people like LH or LX.

[Edited 2012-11-04 11:52:35]

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-04 11:56:39 and read 4647 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):

Then how did the issue of the malfunctioning credit card come about?

My guess she was directed to another desk at the time the boarding pass was scanned. It is often the first time an agent for the airline meets a passenger with web check-in. The Ryanair rules say a person must carry ID, and the types of acceptable ID, it does not say one has to produce it at the boarding gate.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 34):
Pure speculation, but more than probably... typical Ryanair boarding... the woman is told that she cannot board two pieces of hand luggage

I would not be surprised, however their rules refer to baggage, not the number items of hand carriage. Hand carried items would include a cell phone, jackets, wallet, purse, passport, boarding card etc. I would expect EVERY passenger to have more than one.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 35):

What luggage ? All I could see was a single clear plastic bag on one hand and a jacket in the other. The roll of paper was longer than 55 cm, but that is not a bag, or baggage. As I said before, good luck convincing any court in the EU that a roll of paper is a bag. The bag she has was not oversize.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-04 12:03:16 and read 4591 times.

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 36):
I can confirm all these 'one baggage only' policy, not even a coat in your arm, a bottle of water in a plastic bag, all needs to go into that one baggage. Last time in Stansted and Venice, I got told by the agent about this, but once I got passed, I took everything back out then slowly walked on the plane.

Pitty their "policy" is not the same as what they list on their website.

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 36):
Last time in Stansted and Venice, I got told by the agent about this, but once I got passed, I took everything back out then slowly walked on the plane.

Exactly as I suggest above, put the jacket on on, roll of paper/book in the pocket, tick the box, pass the agent and take it off again. A silly childish game that two can play.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-04 12:08:26 and read 4524 times.

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 36):
To sum up, the policy of Ryanair, or the way some peopletry to implement it, possibly to maximise revenue, or the share of pay for particular agents, stinks!

Every airline tries to maximise revenue, especially in this day and age, although other airlines just do it differently.

Then again, there have been instances in the US when passengers have been kicked off planes just because they "look foreign."

A friend of mine, Australian to the core but swarthy, passed all the rigorous El Al security checks, but then the other passengers on the aircraft refused to fly because he looked "Arab." So he was booted off that flight - but it didn't get a thread on a.net.

Airlines have rules. If the rules are offensive to you, then it is entirely your right to make the decision not to fly with them.

Quoting zeke (Reply 37):
My guess she was directed to another desk at the time the boarding pass was scanned. It is often the first time an agent for the airline meets a passenger with web check-in. The Ryanair rules say a person must carry ID, and the types of acceptable ID, it does not say one has to produce it at the boarding gate.

It is just hypothesis piling on hypothesis, but on many occasions I have been demanded to present ID at the gate, and with airlines other than Ryanair.

Try having Palestine as your birthplace in your British passport and enjoy the fun that gets you into.

mariner

[Edited 2012-11-04 12:11:59]

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-11-04 12:12:49 and read 4488 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 37):

Ryanair's website is very clear on that:

http://www.ryanair.com/en/terms-and-conditions

Quote:
CABIN BAGGAGE

Strictly one item of cabin baggage per passenger (excluding infants) weighing up to 10kg with maximum dimensions of 55cm x 40cm x 20cm is permitted. (handbag, briefcase, laptop, shop purchases, camera etc.) must be carried in your 1 permitted piece of cabin baggage.

Extra/oversized cabin baggage will be refused at the boarding gate, or where available, placed in the hold of the aircraft for a fee of £50/€50. If you are unsure, check at the Bag Drop desk before going through security. (...)

Those terms and conditions are available as well in Spanish and Catalan (which are the two official languages in the airport where that woman was boarding) in their website.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-04 12:13:06 and read 4504 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 37):
What luggage ? All I could see was a single clear plastic bag on one hand and a jacket in the other.

The case reported in the article:

"as she was carrying a scroll, which would not fit in her case, and a book."

Quoting zeke (Reply 37):
The roll of paper was longer than 55 cm, but that is not a bag, or baggage. As I said before, good luck convincing any court in the EU that a roll of paper is a bag. The bag she has was not oversize.

Errr, you might want to read their regulations then, because you are wrong:

"CABIN BAGGAGE

Strictly one item of cabin baggage per passenger (excluding infants) weighing up to 10kg with maximum dimensions of 55cm x 40cm x 20cm is permitted. (handbag, briefcase, laptop, shop purchases, camera etc.) must be carried in your 1 permitted piece of cabin baggage."

The scroll she was carrying is an item. It doesn't matter that it isn't a bag, it is still her one item of carry on luggage and as you identify, it appears to be oversize. She agreed to these terms when booking, after all...


Dan  

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: garpd
Posted 2012-11-04 12:15:21 and read 4466 times.

The rules of carriage are shown to you on booking, on completion of booking and on your boarding pass.

It is quite clear you are only allowed 1 piece of hand luggage.

The instructions on the booking site and your printed boarding pass clearly state that anything you want to carry on board must fit into the 1 piece of hand luggage and that the luggage must not exceed X amount of KG and be within certain dimensions.

This woman ignored these notices. Ignorance is not a defence. Perhaps the incident could have been dealt with more tactfully. But, if you pay peanuts, don't expect a red carpet!

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-04 12:16:28 and read 4447 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 38):
Pitty their "policy" is not the same as what they list on their website.

  

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 40):
Ryanair's website is very clear on that:

Exactly - they always have been too.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: kl911
Posted 2012-11-04 12:24:42 and read 4361 times.

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 36):
I also very dislike the way they try to push people to hurry up for a on time departure. Sorry to say this but when I am pushed, I act even slower, call me naive but I just hated this.Hence, I am not flying with them anymore.

I am happy you dont fly them anymore. Me and most other pax want to hurry up and get on the plane. I prefer therefore the Ryanair way over that from KLM for example. If everybody would just prepare and follow the rules boarding can be soo efficient. At Budapest airport mosr pax are very disciplined and prepared for the trip with FR.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 40):
Ryanair's website is very clear on that:http://www.ryanair.com/en/terms-and-conditionsQuote:CABIN BAGGAGEStrictly one item of cabin baggage per passenger (excluding infants) weighing up to 10kg with maximum dimensions of 55cm x 40cm x 20cm is permitted. (handbag, briefcase, laptop, shop purchases, camera etc.) must be carried in your 1 permitted piece of cabin baggage.Extra/oversized cabin baggage will be refused at the boarding gate, or where available, placed in the hold of the aircraft for a fee of £50/€50. If you are unsure, check at the Bag Drop desk before going through security. (...)Those terms and conditions are available as well in Spanish and Catalan (which are the two official languages in the airport where that woman was boarding) in their website.

And thats so easy to read. And dont forget Ryanair send everybody an email a few days before departure, with all luggage and checkin instructions.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 41):
"CABIN BAGGAGEStrictly one item of cabin baggage per passenger (excluding infants) weighing up to 10kg with maximum dimensions of 55cm x 40cm x 20cm is permitted. (handbag, briefcase, laptop, shop purchases, camera etc.) must be carried in your 1 permitted piece of cabin baggage."The scroll she was carrying is an item. It doesn't matter that it isn't a bag, it is still her one item of carry on luggage and as you identify, it appears to be oversize. She agreed to these terms when booking, after all...

Exactly. So to speak in MOL terms, she is really a 'stupid' woman.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: european742
Posted 2012-11-04 12:26:22 and read 4348 times.

As quoted from my Ryanair boarding pass I have in front of me..

WARNING - 1 cabin bag only - 55x40x20cm (Max 10kg)
Handbag, Briefcase, Laptop, Shope purchases, cameras etc must be carried within your 1 cabin bag.

Extra/Oversized cabin baggage will be REFUSED at the boarding gate, or where available, placed in the hold of the aircraft for a fee of £/€50. If you are unsure, check at the bag drop desk before going through security. N.B. There is no baggage allowance (cabin or checked) associated with the purchase of an extra seat.

IMPORTANT REMINDERS - please read
- Each passenger must present their valid photo ID (as specified and accepted in our general conditions). Driving licences are not accepted
- Passengers with pre booked special assistance must produce this boarding pass at the airport special assistance desk and again to assistance staff at the arrival airport
- Bag drop desks close strictly 40 minutes before the scheduled flight departure time
- EU Reg 261-Article 14.1 - If you are denied boarding or if your flight is cancelled for at least 2 hours, ask at the Ryanair desk or view online the text stating your rights, particularly with regard to compensation and assistance.

I am sorry if people find this confusing but to me I dont think you can get any clearer than that. If you choose to break any of these, why should Ryanair break them too? The bottom line is YOU agree at the time of booking with this. Ryanair does not have any hidden charges, they have a table of fees which you can quite clearly view before choosing a flight, once you have chosen a flight, you then choose what you want to add on and the relevant charges are added, then you go on to pay, all the extra charges are agreed to by you and once booked you are sent 3 e-mail reminders before you travel about their policies. I have flown with them many times and got from A to B cheap which is what i paid for and have never had a problem. This woman clearly breached one or more of what she agreed to, tried to make a run for it and therefore paid the price.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-04 12:29:54 and read 4311 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):
It is just hypothesis piling on hypothesis, but on many occasions I have been demanded to present ID at the gate, and with airlines other than Ryanair.

Same, however their rules do not say you have to produce it at the boarding gate. I do when asked, even if it is not required. I am just being silly, as they are being silly.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 40):
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 41):

In English, "one item of cabin baggage per passenger" and "one item per passenger" have different meanings. The former refers to the number of baggage, the later the number of items, they may or may not be the same. I would suggest EVERY passenger has more than one item (a boarding card and ID for a start are two).

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-11-04 12:36:33 and read 4240 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 41):
Strictly one item of cabin baggage per passenger (excluding infants) weighing up to 10kg with maximum dimensions of 55cm x 40cm x 20cm is permitted. (handbag, briefcase, laptop, shop purchases, camera etc.) must be carried in your 1 permitted piece of cabin baggage."

Sorry but what kind of syntax is that? What is that sentence that starts with "(handbag, briefcase, laptop, shop purchases, camera, etc.) must be carried..."? I guess something is missing before the parenthesis. Something like: "Any other items (handbag, briefcase, laptop, shop purchases, camera, etc.) must be...". It seems like Ryanair cannot be bothered to write their terms and conditions properly...

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-04 13:02:48 and read 4006 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 46):
Same, however their rules do not say you have to produce it at the boarding gate. I do when asked, even if it is not required. I am just being silly, as they are being silly.

We're just going round in circles.

Again, I've been asked at the gate to show both my boarding pass and my ID for security purposes. I haven't checked to see if it is in the "rules" of the various airlines because I don't think it's silly.

It is a legal requirement - at least down here - that the passenger listed is the passenger flying, and that the pax should have the correct paperwork.

mariner

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-04 13:11:37 and read 3959 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 46):
In English, "one item of cabin baggage per passenger" and "one item per passenger" have different meanings. The former refers to the number of baggage, the later the number of items, they may or may not be the same. I would suggest EVERY passenger has more than one item (a boarding card and ID for a start are two).

Sorry, but that is more than bordering on the pedantic. The regulations are perfectly clear and I cannot see where you are coming from.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 47):
It seems like Ryanair cannot be bothered to write their terms and conditions properly...

I would guess because it's short and to the point.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-11-04 13:28:52 and read 3813 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 49):
I would guess because it's short and to the point.

It is not. It is wrongly written. Something is clearly missing in the sentence that starts with "(handbag, briefcase,...".

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2012-11-04 13:34:54 and read 3736 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
In the EU, they have passengers rights.

They do indeed, however among them is not the right to remain onboard an aircraft after an airline has asked you to get off. She is entitled to claim denied boarding compensation if she wishes, she isn't entitled to do so on the plane she has been told to vacate.

If you refuse to leave an aircraft after an airline asked you to, the cops will remove you. It doesn't matter the country, the airline, or the motive behind the request.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-04 13:36:25 and read 3714 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 50):
It is not. It is wrongly written. Something is clearly missing in the sentence that starts with "(handbag, briefcase,...".

That it may be, but it was only a guess as I really have no interest in rearranging full stops and sentences.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-11-04 13:53:45 and read 3560 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 52):
I really have no interest in rearranging full stops and sentences.

That's fine. But they should write their terms and conditions properly. That sentence, as it is written, makes no sense, although its intended meaning is pretty clear.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-04 19:48:31 and read 1869 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 14):
That is not what Ryanair claim, they claim she did not show her ID and boarding pass, we can see her boarding pass in the video.

The video shows her arguing with the police. It does not show what happened before then. We can see a piece of paper in her hand but we do not know at what stage she produced the boarding card. Was it before or after police involvement? As we can see, she is asked several times to leave the aircraft and refuses to comply until a second police officer assists. If she was so argumentative with the police, can we assume that she was perfectly calm and co-operative with the gate staff and cabin crew?

The fact that she claimed her credit card wasn't working, suggests that she accepted that her luggage did not comply with the terms of carriage or why else would she have brought out the card in the first place?

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
how did she get the boarding card you say you can see?

Ryanair require that you print your own. If you want them to print one they charge € 60.

Quoting zeke (Reply 46):
their rules do not say you have to produce it at the boarding gate.

From FR's terms: "All passengers must present their valid travel document along with their online boarding pass at airport security and at the boarding gate for all flights." [Emphasis added]

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: Giancavia
Posted 2012-11-05 02:28:11 and read 1635 times.

Boring, Another woman who doesnt obey the rules giving the opportunity to resident Anet Ryanair bashers to harp on about the same snore bore stuff they always do. Follow the rules and read what you are buying and you will have no problems with Ryanair. So many clueless cretins I have no sympathy for.

Ryanair profits up 10% and passengers were up 7% in the first half of the year AFTER tax. So as much as you lil bambinos continue to cry and whinge, more and more people keep on flying with that pesky O'leary.

http://news.sky.com/story/1007038/ry...ofit-soar-10-percent-in-first-half

"haters gonna hate".

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-05 02:47:37 and read 1617 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 54):

From FR's terms: "All passengers must present their valid travel document along with their online boarding pass at airport security and at the boarding gate for all flights." [Emphasis added]

Happy to admit I am wrong there, I did not see that, I was referring to their T&C "TRAVEL DOCUMENTATION" section.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: offloaded
Posted 2012-11-05 04:43:10 and read 1581 times.

Regardless of what it says in Ryanair's T and C's it varies by airport. For example I have flown FR several times this year and at BOH and MAN it clearly states on several notices outside the airport shops that FR pax can buy items in the shops and carry them in addition to their hand baggage allowance. Flying from FAO or BHX and any purchases must go inside the single carry on bag. I can only guess that this depends on whatever deal the airport made with FR, and in the case of BOH maybe they FR that fees would have to go up if people didn't start buying "duty free" again. (I know it isn't actually free of duty!)

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2012-11-05 13:37:25 and read 1557 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):

Ryanairs statement why the passenger was booted off was because they did not show their boarding pass or ID when they went through the gate. I can see the boarding pass in their hand.
Quoting zeke (Reply 14):
they claim she did not show her ID and boarding pass, we can see her boarding pass in the video.

You must have super x-ray vision then, not to mention that just because she has it, doesn't mean she showed it.

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
they have dropped this ID and boarding pass line now as well.

Where did they do that?

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
Using the police to remove the passenger is an abuse of power, it is not what they are there for.

You're right, the police are there to... look pretty?

No, thatt is EXACTLY what they are there for. People may have a right to travel, and airlines might be covered under "common carrier" regulations, but people do NOT have a right to enter into an agreement and then ignore it when it comes due. That's not even touching any STATE-mandated LAWS the REQUIRE people to present their boarding pass and ID to board an airplane. If, as Ryanair stated, that the passenger refused to show their boarding pass or ID, that is a LEGAL matter to be dealt with by the POLICE.

Get it?

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-05 14:58:21 and read 1556 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 58):
Where did they do that?

Ryanairs first statement said she did not show the pass or ID and it was a security breech. If it had been, the aircraft should have been rechecked.

Their second statement they said she was removed for being disruptive, and said it was not associated with the carry on items.

I have provided the quotes above.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 58):

You're right, the police are there to... look pretty?

The role of the police is in legislation, and they have limited powers of what they can do. Their job is not to interfere with a civil contract despite, they can however remove disruptive passengers. Ryanairs statements changed in my view to make the use of force legal.

The passenger is then eligible under EU law to get passenger compensation for denied boarding.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 58):
Get it?

What I get is this happened in Europe, and "state mandated" US laws do not apply. One is not required to present ID when traveling in Europe everywhere with every carrier, and not at the gate. I have traveled from a number of countries in Europe without having done so, even last month. I provided ID at check-in to obtain the boarding pass from the e-ticket. ID is then not required for the security check like in the US, at the gate, all they are after is the boarding pass.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-11-05 15:14:53 and read 1554 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 59):
What I get is this happened in Europe, and "state mandated" US laws do not apply. One is not required to present ID when traveling in Europe everywhere with every carrier, and not at the gate. I have traveled from a number of countries in Europe without having done so, even last month. I provided ID at check-in to obtain the boarding pass from the e-ticket. ID is then not required for the security check like in the US, at the gate, all they are after is the boarding pass.

Definitely I haven't been asked any ID in some European airports for domestic/intra-EU flights (for instance FRA) BUT you have to scan (or be scanned) your boarding pass at the gate. I think that you have missed that in your comment   Maybe I am wrong and you know some European airport where you can freely board any aircraft once you are in the air side (no ID, no boarding pass check).

This woman has failed to show her boarding pass (or any alternative identification), so she has been removed from that aircraft.

[Edited 2012-11-05 15:16:38]

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2012-11-05 15:57:17 and read 1550 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 59):
Ryanairs first statement said she did not show the pass or ID and it was a security breech. If it had been, the aircraft should have been rechecked.

Not all security breaches demand that an entire aircraft be "rechecked", especially if the passenger in question has already cleared normal security measures and never accessed a secure area. Trust me on this one.

Quoting zeke (Reply 59):

Their second statement they said she was removed for being disruptive

Yes. In English, and in commercial aviation, being "disruptive" can mean anything from noncompliance with crewmember instructions to punching the guy sitting next to you.

In this case, it appears the passenger was originally denied boarding because she caused a ruckus about having to check her oversized item and the associated hassles with the credit card. It also appears that after being denied boarding, she attempted to get on the airplane anyways.

Quoting zeke (Reply 59):
The role of the police is in legislation

No it is not. Police are enforcers of said legislation. Legislation which allows airlines to deny boarding to someone for being disruptive. At that point, it is a legal trespassing matter.

Quoting zeke (Reply 59):
Their job is not to interfere with a civil contract despite, they can however remove disruptive passengers.

.... which is what they did here. Either way, the police were not out of bounds in removing the passenger. Like you said, this is not about some contract dispute. The airline told the woman to leave, and she didn't. She is now a trespasser.

Quoting zeke (Reply 59):
What I get is this happened in Europe, and "state mandated" US laws do not apply.

In English, "state" also means "national authority". In Europe, the laws for removing disruptive passengers are pretty similar to US laws.

Quoting zeke (Reply 59):
One is not required to present ID when traveling in Europe everywhere with every carrier, and not at the gate

One IS required to present ID to get their boarding pass, however, one is not necessarily required to present it at the gate, but they could be (AFAIK, there are no specific laws against it).

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: scutfarcus
Posted 2012-11-05 16:20:52 and read 1557 times.

Good ol' Ryan Air. Everyone knows Ryan air is nuts about their horrible restrictions. You just don't tempt fate with them.

I sympathize with this lady that their policy is completely awful, but at the end of the day, this is how they roll. You expect this when you buy a ticket with them. She should have stuffed it down her pant leg  

Why people continue to give their money to support this airline remains a great mystery to me, or perhaps a telling anecdote about human nature and out desire for the cheapest stuff we can get regardless of long term consequences.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-11-05 17:12:53 and read 1556 times.

Quoting scutfarcus (Reply 62):

I think there a few differences that might explain Ryanair's success in Europe, when looking at it from an American perspective (or NK/WN in the US).

In the EU I still feel that the prices differences legacy/low-cost (esp. Ryanair) tend to be higher than compared to the US. That's probably due to the fact that in the US there are four legacies (even if they have their hubs spread all over the country that gives them strength in their respective markets) and more competition, while in many Euro markets you basically have your local legacy (which probably still has very high base costs), maybe the legacy of the country you are flying to (if you are flying intra-European non-domestic) and LCs.

My local airport here in the US has Southwest and Spirit but I have never flown them... because they don't actually offer me anything better than any legacy even in terms of price or connectivity. Whenever I am in Europe I end up flying Ryanair all the time... not because I like them, but because many times are substantially way way cheaper than the legacy on that route or because they are the only carrier flying it (that doesn't mean that sometimes Ryanair is more expensive than Lufthansa or BA, particularly in major routes).

Let's take that woman, she was meant to fly VLC-SCQ (a Spanish domestic transversal route). Ryanair is the only carrier flying non-stop between those airports (and the two regions). Today in mainland Spain if you want to fly domestic, it means flying IB to MAD, VY to BCN and Ryanair which is almost always the "second option" (there is also UX in some random routes, esp. for the islands).

If she wouldn't fly Ryanair, she would rather have to do VLC-MAD-SCQ with Iberia. I just checked IB's website, and the cheapest fares for a return ticket in February (slow month) are on the $400s, about €300. In FR, there are returns from as low as €30 (plus all their charges and luggage... it would be at about €70... and maybe in a domestic route she does not even need to check luggage). The price differences are very substantial... and we are talking about a direct flight versus a connection (which most non-aviation enthusiastics would take any day   ). That's pretty much the same for Italy domestic or even UK-Ireland today.

And even from major metro areas with large Ryanair bases (Dublin, London, Milan or Brussels) and a good variety of destinations and carriers, there are many medium/small cities in Europe where FR is the only airline in place. So FR ends up being not only the cheapest, but quite a few times it is also the fastest and most convenient way to get to your destination, which I don't think it is very often the case for WN or NK in the US.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-05 23:01:57 and read 1553 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 61):
Trust me on this one.

What in your profile would make me suggest I should do that ? How often are involved with passenger boarding issues ?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 61):
In this case, it appears the passenger was originally denied boarding because she caused a ruckus about having to check her oversized item and the associated hassles with the credit card.

Where was that said ?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 61):

No it is not. Police are enforcers of said legislation. Legislation which allows airlines to deny boarding to someone for being disruptive. At that point, it is a legal trespassing matter.

The head of power for establishing a police force, and their role is in legislation.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 61):

In English, "state" also means "national authority". In Europe, the laws for removing disruptive passengers are pretty similar to US laws.

There is no state law like you claimed in reply 58 that a passenger must present their ID and boarding pass to get on the aircraft.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 61):
One IS required to present ID to get their boarding pass, however, one is not necessarily required to present it at the gate, but they could be (AFAIK, there are no specific laws against it).

That is not true either, in the EU one can obtain a boarding pass from a self service kiosk without ID, it just depends on the airline how they set it up. The ID I produced to get my boarding pass is my staff ID, not a passport or travel document. The ID in my case was requested to confirm I was eligible for the e-ticket booked.

Ryanair however in the T&C say they need ID and Boarding pass to be presented at time of boarding.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: peterinlisbon
Posted 2012-11-06 01:43:32 and read 1540 times.

The bottom line is that she broke the "one scroll only" rule. They take things literally and there's no reasoning with these people. But here's the deal - when you fly Ryanair the best thing to do is to have one of those big flexible plastic bags that you stick everything else inside. Then you can move things around so that it takes the shape of their box. Another idea is to have a really big coat with lots of deep pockets. Then, if your bag doesn't fit in their box you can put stuff in the pockets. I even knew a woman that had a special type of bag which she could hide under her arms in her coat to smuggle more stuff in.

I must have taken 20 or 30 flights with them this year and it seems that they're getting worse and worse. Flying with this company is such a hastle and the boarding process is always extremely unpleasant, with lots of loud arguments and people behind forced to pay large amounts of money or being threatened not to be let on the flight. I always have some things prepared that I can throw away if necessary, but it's still stressful. Now they have their box next to the gate and make everyone put their bag in it to see if it fits. If they don't like the shape / size of your bag and your credit card doesn't work (or their machine doesn't work) then they'll make you miss the flight. They really couldn't care less what the consequence might be for you.

I know Ryanair is cheap and they make a lot of money - but their behaviour is very unethical in my opinion, and I don't think that making the whole experience so miserable is really a good strategy in the long-term. It's a bit like buying cheap goods from someone you know is dishonest - sooner or later you know you're going to get screwed.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2012-11-06 01:48:05 and read 1539 times.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 65):
the whole experience so miserable is really a good strategy in the long-term

They have existed in their LCC form for 21 years now. Is that not the "long-term"?

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-06 02:19:43 and read 1541 times.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 65):
I must have taken 20 or 30 flights with them this year and it seems that they're getting worse and worse.

Twenty or thirty flights in ten months? If it is so bad, why do you keep flying with the airline?

There are plenty of other choices, though perhaps more expensive. You get what you pay for, perhaps.

mariner

[Edited 2012-11-06 02:20:59]

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2012-11-06 04:50:51 and read 1539 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 64):
There is no state law like you claimed
Aena Aeropuertos, operating for the Ministerio de Fomento, publishes the following advice:
"The documentation to be provided by passengers in order to confirm that their identity corresponds with the boarding pass, at check-in desks and at boarding gates, will be the following:

"Checking documentation

Type of flight (from Spain) - Domestic

Type of passenger -Domestic

Documentation required-

+ 14 years old: Spanish National Identity Card (DNI) or passport, not necessarily current.
Driving license issued in Spain.

- 14 years old: Exempt, under the responsibility of the person accompanying them on the flight.

It goes on to list requirements for other EU nationals and international travellers, before concluding:

"Not having the documentation required for your destination may mean you are not allowed to board the plane."

While other passengers travelling through Spain may not have been asked to show anything, when I last boarded my flight to DXB at MAD, I was asked to show my passport and boarding pass at the gate, just as I must do every time I leave PER.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2012-11-06 10:29:25 and read 1528 times.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 66):
They have existed in their LCC form for 21 years now. Is that not the "long-term"?

Their entire business model is based on the availability of brand-new (read low maintenance), cheap aircraft. Their future long-term prospect depends very much on this availability continuing, and with Ryanair being unable to agree terms with Boeing for a new order despite years of efforts, there is question as to whether their business model has a long term future.

When their costs climb and the difference in fare between them and the competition shrinks, Ryanair certainly cannot count on customer loyalty to fill its planes, as it is clear it is absolutely not interested in earning it.

To be sure, I am not predicting their demise overnight, but unless a global depression wipes out two third of the Max order book, I think Ryanair will have no choice but to look for a new business model within a few years. Perhaps, their plan is to so dominate the market now that, when the years of reckoning do come, they have a quasi-monopoly on so many routes that customers have no option but to fly with them even at higher prices...

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2012-11-06 12:10:16 and read 1529 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 64):
What in your profile would make me suggest I should do that ? How often are involved with passenger boarding issues ?

Fairly often. I know my profile says I'm merely a "baggage handler", but I am required to know the procedures involved in securing an airplane. Just because somebody pushes past a gate agent onto an airplane does not mean the airplane is no longer sterile.

Quoting zeke (Reply 64):
Where was that said ?

In the original article. It's not hard for me to figure out what happened next... like I said, I've dealt with that type of situation many times before.

Quoting zeke (Reply 64):
The head of power for establishing a police force, and their role is in legislation.

I know English isn't your first language, but you're terminology is wrong.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2012-11-06 12:23:52 and read 1528 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 70):
you're terminology is wrong

Like YOUR spelling.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: kl911
Posted 2012-11-06 13:16:38 and read 1526 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 64):
There is no state law like you claimed in reply 58 that a passenger must present their ID and boarding pass to get on the aircraft.

When flying KLM Budapest - Amsterdam I always have to show my boardingpass AND ID at the gate. Both ways.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-07 04:00:18 and read 1518 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 70):
Fairly often. I know my profile says I'm merely a "baggage handler", but I am required to know the procedures involved in securing an airplane. Just because somebody pushes past a gate agent onto an airplane does not mean the airplane is no longer sterile.

Do you know how many times in 20 odd years I have had a "baggage handler" assist in cabin security or passenger boarding issues ? Where I work, the operating crew would not even allow a "baggage handler" to be on-board while performing their security check, no ground personnel at all.

Please note it was Ryanair that originally claimed a "breach of airport security regulations", they later changed that.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 70):
In the original article.

Provide a quote then.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 70):

I know English isn't your first language, but you're terminology is wrong.

The Spanish 1986 Organic Law of the Security Corps and Forces is the legislative transition from Francoism to parliamentary democracy for the Spanish police force. The Spanish police used to part of the military up until a constitution change the late 1970s. The role of the police force is now in legislation, with the head of power for the legislation under the Spanish constitution.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 72):

When flying KLM Budapest - Amsterdam I always have to show my boardingpass AND ID at the gate. Both ways.

This is an answer I found given in the EU parliament this year regarding the use of an electronic machine alone to check boarding passes to gain access to an aircraft. What Ryanair is asking for would fall under "commercial reasons" IMHO, to do a proper document check one needs a UV light source and specific training. Visually checking the name on the ID against a boarding pass which is done by a lot of airlines does not absolve an airline from having to return a passenger later to be found to have invalid ID at the destination, it is useful to identify a large number of people that misplace their ID prior to boarding.

"For national flights and within the Schengen area of the Union there is no requirement to check an identity card before crossing an EU internal boarder. Identity checks at airports which are often border crossings follow in principle the same spirit.

As regards aviation security EU legislation based on international standards pursues the objective of prohibiting items identified as potentially dangerous for aviation from being brought into security relevant areas of an airport or on board a plane. It does not stipulate the identification of passengers but requires any passenger wishing to proceed beyond the airport security checkpoint to hold a valid boarding pass. Checked-in baggage must relate to a passenger on board. Whenever justified identity checks of air passengers for boarding may be required by Member States' aviation security authorities.

The Commission does not consider aviation security measures as best conceived to identify criminals or detect infringement of administrative or contractual law and deems these to be subject to action of wider law enforcement. Police, customs, or other authorities can intervene at any point in the boarding or disembarking process and perform identity checks to prevent people trafficking and other form of criminal offences. In addition several airline companies ask for visual identification at check-in or on boarding for commercial reasons and the verification of correct travel visas.

In the event of an accident or other emergency situation the transport operator discloses the passenger information at its disposal. EU safety legislation requests from airlines to provide validated lists of all persons on board an aircraft based on the best available information. "

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/...eference=E-2012-001984&language=EN

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2012-11-07 10:39:11 and read 1512 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 71):

Like YOUR spelling.

D'oh!

Quoting zeke (Reply 73):
Do you know how many times in 20 odd years I have had a "baggage handler" assist in cabin security or passenger boarding issues ? Where I work, the operating crew would not even allow a "baggage handler" to be on-board while performing their security check, no ground personnel at all.

That's cool. Do you know how many times in almost 7 years I, as a "baggage handler", had to deal with cabin security issues? Hundreds. We actually did the security sweeps until a couple of years ago. Passenger issues? A few, mostly related to personal oxygen devices.

And BTW, how many times in "20 odd years" did you ever fully rescreen an airplane because one person got kicked off for throwing a fit?

Quoting zeke (Reply 73):
Provide a quote then.
Quote:
The video was posted on Facebook by a user called Soraya Pla, who said the woman shouted out as she entered the cabin that she had tried to pay an oversized luggage fee with her credit card, but it had not been working.

Happy?

Quoting zeke (Reply 73):
The role of the police force is now in legislation

Really?

Quote:
The Guardia Civil ensure compliance with the laws, shall assist and protect people and ensure the preservation and custody of goods that are in danger from any cause, monitor and protect public buildings and facilities, ensure the safety and security of the high personalities, maintain order and security, prevent the commission of crimes, investigate crimes to discover and arrest the guilty and cooperate with civil protection services in cases of serious risk, catastrophe or public calamity.

From the Google translation of: http://www.guardiacivil.es/en/servicios/cuandirigirsegc/index.html

Also, having personally dealt with both the GC and the CNP, I can assure you their primary role is enforcing the law, not making it.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-08 01:43:26 and read 1503 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 74):
Do you know how many times in almost 7 years I, as a "baggage handler", had to deal with cabin security issues? Hundreds.

No regulator I am aware of has a "baggage handler" responsible for cabin security and cabin safety equipment.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 74):
And BTW, how many times in "20 odd years" did you ever fully rescreen an airplane because one person got kicked off for throwing a fit?

Once was ejected from the sterile side of the terminal where everyone in the terminal had to be re-screened due to a faulty scanner, and twice had to have everyone off the aircraft due to security breaches. Someone that is removed because they are disruptive is not a security breach. Ryanair originally claimed there was a "breach of airport security regulations".

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 74):
Happy?

No, it does not mention " the passenger was originally denied boarding because she caused a ruckus about having to check her oversized item and the associated hassles with the credit card. It also appears that after being denied boarding, she attempted to get on the airplane anyways" as you previously stated.

Ryanair now claim it had nothing to do with her hand carry items, just due to being disruptive. This change in story could simply be due to all the facts not getting up the chain to the PR people in time. Airlines are normally very careful with what they say in such statements.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 74):
Really?

Yes, this is the 1986 legislation I referred to above for the formation and role of the security and police forces (http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Admin/lo2-1986.html). The head of power reference to the constitution is in the legislation.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 74):
I can assure you their primary role is enforcing the law, not making it.

I did not say the Police make legislation, that is the role of the government. I said the head of power for establishing a police force, and their role is in legislation. The powers and role of the police are contained in the legislation, including the use of firearms.

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: mad99
Posted 2012-11-08 04:07:58 and read 1496 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
woman was agitated

All Spanish women are born agitated!

Topic: RE: Booted Off Ryanair For Carrying Books And Scrolls?
Username: pegasus1
Posted 2012-11-08 06:10:08 and read 1491 times.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 76):
All Spanish women are born agitated!

    rotfl 

[Edited 2012-11-08 06:10:46]


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