Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5606112/

Topic: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: quickmover
Posted 2012-11-07 18:35:16 and read 2020 times.

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/a/...-end-flights-a-matter-of-fairness/

Sorry to see this. Maybe Frontier will consider DEN service.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-07 18:51:37 and read 2024 times.

Sounds like horrendous mismanagement on the airport's part. What did they expect when they threw a bunch of money at MQ? Is there any reason they would have wanted DL gone?

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-07 19:04:45 and read 2023 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Sounds like horrendous mismanagement on the airport's part.

Isn't this similar to what happened at ICT, over the Airtran subsidies there?:

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/104...-to-cut-seven-flights-from-wichita

"Delta To Cut Seven Flights From Wichita

Delta and the city have fought for months over subsidies the city gives to AirTran Airways.

Earlier this month, the city rejected Delta's offer to add daily nonstop flights to Orlando, Fla., in exchange for the same $2.5 million annual subsidy the city gives AirTran."


mariner

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: quickmover
Posted 2012-11-07 19:12:56 and read 2023 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):

Sounds like horrendous mismanagement on the airport's part.

Absolutely
The Delta service wasn't costing the city a dime and connected COU to the biggest hub in the world.
Hasn't been that long ago that COU didn't have ANY service. The fares were not that high and there was no need to beat them up with a major competitor.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: thegoldenargosy
Posted 2012-11-07 19:51:12 and read 2025 times.

I'm really disgusted by COU Airport management. Delta turned COU from a city that could barely fill Beechcraft 1900 to offering CRJ service with being subsidized. They gave Delta a crap deal after providing COU good service for four years. AA is not gonna bring CRJ-700's into COU. If anyone could have it would've been DL.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: quickmover
Posted 2012-11-07 20:33:53 and read 2025 times.

The market is very promising in that area, just not developed yet. The terminal used to barely accommodate 50 passengers. They brought in some modular buildings enhancing capacity to 150 or so. A more perminent solution is probably in the works, but would have been alot easier to sell to taxpayers if DL was still in the picture.

DL was perfect for a quick connection to the Southeast. Now, to go to the Southeast, passengers will have to fly to ORD or DFW.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: Triple7LR
Posted 2012-11-07 21:53:19 and read 2023 times.

This will undoubtedly stunt the airports growth.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: HeeseokKoo
Posted 2012-11-07 22:37:22 and read 2023 times.

Quoting quickmover (Reply 5):
DL was perfect for a quick connection to the Southeast. Now, to go to the Southeast, passengers will have to fly to ORD or DFW.

It seems AA will offer better connection through DFW and ORD. Currently everyone should go via ATL and it's not convenient for those going west, north or south.

Different from what the article suggests, DL already suspended MEM flight. According to the article, DL was doing great with MEM flight, but it began to make loss after transitioned those flights to ATL. MEM is much closer and better location for connecting throughout U.S. while ATL is only convenient to the Southeast and East maybe. Feel sorry to hear that, but it appears to be DL's fault, not something the city can do. DL could offer flights to other directions (MSP or SLC) and ask money.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: usxguy
Posted 2012-11-07 23:12:18 and read 2023 times.

Btw, this was NOT the move of the local airport but the local mayors and politicians. I know the airport manager and she's a smart cookie... I'll bet you she was warning of this...

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: catiii
Posted 2012-11-08 00:23:42 and read 2023 times.

Let's face it, only one airline offered the best connections to all those Mizzou SEC away football games. Good luck finding timely connections to Gainesville, the other Columbia, Athens and Auburn via ATL etc. for your SEC East games. Although, lookingnat Mizzou's SEC record this year do they still have a football team ?  

EDIT: now that I think about it, DL may also still be the best carrier to get you to your SEC West games too!

[Edited 2012-11-08 00:35:32]

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2012-11-08 02:39:37 and read 2022 times.

What I wonder is whether COU could realistically support service to both DFW and ATL, although they seem to serve different cities. ORD can potentially serve places in the Southeast, but it's inconvenient. You do need something for the upper Midwest, and Chicago is great for that, while DFW is a major gateway to the Southwest. It's a shame COU couldn't cobble something together to keep DL, as they do serve an important niche that should not be overlooked. Service to MEM would have sunset anyway due to cutbacks at the hub, which has been offering fewer connections throughout the day, especially on Saturdays.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-11-08 04:57:44 and read 2022 times.

I agree that this should have been handled differently, and better, by the city. It was certainly unfair to offer financial incentives to Eagle and not again to Delta.

Nonetheless, I do also think that Eagle is probably a better fit for the market than Delta, anyway, given the city's geographic position relative to AA's vs Delta's hubs. While ideally COU should have been striving to keep both carriers, in the long-run if they have to have one, DFW and ORD probably provide a broader range of connectivity - in multiple directions - than would ATL.

I would also guess that if history is any guide, Eagle, too, will be able to support itself self-sufficiently without financial incentives in due course - Eagle seems to have been able to do that in several smaller midwestern markets in the last few years.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-08 05:15:03 and read 2022 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
Nonetheless, I do also think that Eagle is probably a better fit for the market than Delta, anyway, given the city's geographic position relative to AA's vs Delta's hubs. While ideally COU should have been striving to keep both carriers, in the long-run if they have to have one, DFW and ORD probably provide a broader range of connectivity - in multiple directions - than would ATL.

I would also guess that if history is any guide, Eagle, too, will be able to support itself self-sufficiently without financial incentives in due course - Eagle seems to have been able to do that in several smaller midwestern markets in the last few years.

I agree with both of those points. Still, it seems silly to annoy the one carrier you have, especially when, as you observe, it's likely that in the long run Eagle will not require subsidy. I suspect - but cannot prove - that DL and AA could have coexisted in the market. There is likely still a lot of leakage to STL, which is an easy drive.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: AVLAirlineFreq
Posted 2012-11-08 05:15:32 and read 2022 times.

The city wanted DL to commit to flying larger equipment? What?

What year is this?

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: diverdave
Posted 2012-11-08 05:39:21 and read 2022 times.

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 7):
Different from what the article suggests, DL already suspended MEM flight. According to the article, DL was doing great with MEM flight, but it began to make loss after transitioned those flights to ATL. MEM is much closer and better location for connecting throughout U.S. while ATL is only convenient to the Southeast and East maybe. Feel sorry to hear that, but it appears to be DL's fault, not something the city can do. DL could offer flights to other directions (MSP or SLC) and ask money.

The flights were transitioned to ATL because the connecting hub in MEM is largely shut down.

David

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-08 06:48:55 and read 2022 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Sounds like horrendous mismanagement on the airport's part.
Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
Isn't this similar to what happened at ICT, over the Airtran subsidies there?:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
I agree with both of those points. Still, it seems silly to annoy the one carrier you have

Well, despite Delta's indignation, they take identical subsidies in numerous markets and, in fact, actively solicit them from airports. So, for them to complain is certainly not an example of having a moral problem with this. It's just a case where it didn't benefit them. The incentive was not being offered in a market where DL flew, so it is far different from ICT. I don't see anything unusual about what the airport did. I suspect DL was already unhappy with the market and left for that reason. I doubt they would leave a profitable market preemptively.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-11-08 08:27:28 and read 2022 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
Well, despite Delta's indignation, they take identical subsidies in numerous markets and, in fact, actively solicit them from airports. So, for them to complain is certainly not an example of having a moral problem with this. It's just a case where it didn't benefit them. The incentive was not being offered in a market where DL flew, so it is far different from ICT. I don't see anything unusual about what the airport did. I suspect DL was already unhappy with the market and left for that reason. I doubt they would leave a profitable market preemptively.

I don}t think anyone was saying DL had a problem with the subsidy itself. Of course it{s widely known that most to all carriers operate under some sort of subsidy in many markets. The problem was that they )the airport) was offering new financing to American. And then turned around and told DL to accept another months down the road, and oh, operate a bigger a}c. How is that fair?

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: quickmover
Posted 2012-11-08 16:22:23 and read 2023 times.

Maybe wishful thinking, but if AA and USAir were to merge, maybe COU-CLT. That would solve the southeast problem.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-08 17:43:53 and read 2023 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 16):
The problem was that they )the airport) was offering new financing to American. And then turned around and told DL to accept another months down the road, and oh, operate a bigger a}c. How is that fair?

Offering the incentive to an existing carrier for existing service is virtually unheard of. I can't think of a single other case where a community gave a subsidy to an existing carrier because they gave an incentive to a carrier for another market. For example, communities give incentives all the time for new businesses. They never give them to existing businesses. The point is job creation. Giving it to existing companies for doing nothing is just a giveaway of taxpayer money for no benefit.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: CIDFlyer
Posted 2012-11-08 17:59:09 and read 2023 times.

Quoting quickmover (Reply 17):
Maybe wishful thinking, but if AA and USAir were to merge, maybe COU-CLT. That would solve the southeast problem.

that is true and something to think about. Its too bad DL is pulling out, but DL only to ATL while it does provide alot of connections to the southeast its out of the way for the northeast and west coast. ORD will provide great connections to the midwest and northeast/east coast, while DFW will provide great connections to the southeast and west coast. DFW serves alot of smaller southeast interior markets as well. Back when CID was without its non stop ATL flight I used DFW alot on AA to get to the southeast (PNS in this case) for a one stop connection where DL would have forced me on 2 connections. AA is also stronger in ths region as well. AA will be a good fit for COU.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: quickmover
Posted 2012-11-08 18:18:33 and read 2023 times.

Delta had very reasonable fares out of COU. I really don't understand what the city was trying to accomplish with the extra carrier. Delta was growing that market without a subsidy and the terminal was already maxed out. The city could have put their money towards a larger terminal and perhaps spent a little to get a COU-MSP flight. When they are closer to having adequate facilities and passenger traffic, then go after another carrier. That market will eventually be too big for Delta to walk away from.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-08 18:30:07 and read 2024 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 18):
I can't think of a single other case where a community gave a subsidy to an existing carrier because they gave an incentive to a carrier for another market.

I can't think of a single other case where a carrier had a route that was subsidized, that route no longer needed the subsidy, and the community's reaction was to turn around and start subsidizing someone else. The situation is unique from that perspective.

Topic: RE: Delta Pulling Out Of COU. American Taking Over
Username: iowaman
Posted 2012-11-08 19:05:56 and read 2022 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 9):
Let's face it, only one airline offered the best connections to all those Mizzou SEC away football games. Good luck finding timely connections to Gainesville, the other Columbia, Athens and Auburn via ATL etc. for your SEC East games. Although, lookingnat Mizzou's SEC record this year do they still have a football team ?

It would be interesting to know how many people flying out of COU are flying to those cities. It could be a double digit percentage, but honestly I have know idea.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
agree with both of those points. Still, it seems silly to annoy the one carrier you have, especially when, as you observe, it's likely that in the long run Eagle will not require subsidy. I suspect - but cannot prove - that DL and AA could have coexisted in the market. There is likely still a lot of leakage to STL, which is an easy drive.

That is one of the disadvantages JEF has also suffered from - easy four lane access to STL in two hours or even a little less of a drive time. The concept of COU suddently getting limited mainline flights to MCO plus jet service to DFW and ORD is a good amount of seats, far different from the Air Midwest and Saab flights that use to fly out of COU. None the less I'm glad to see another local airport doing well and wish the best.

Quoting diverdave (Reply 14):
The flights were transitioned to ATL because the connecting hub in MEM is largely shut down.

MEM certainly has been cut back from it's days of three nice banks. DSM is down to one daily from three to MEM and that's probably because of DSM being a CR9 maintnance base.

Quoting quickmover (Reply 17):
Maybe wishful thinking, but if AA and USAir were to merge, maybe COU-CLT. That would solve the southeast problem.
Quoting quickmover (Reply 20):
That market will eventually be too big for Delta to walk away from.

It'll be interesting to see if it ever gets to that point, I'm not sure it will be any time in the next few years at least.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/