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Topic: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: aacun
Posted 2012-10-24 04:24:36 and read 21461 times.

AA annouces Dallas/Ft. worth-Seoul service....... Also ORD-DUS, JFK-DUB and DFW-LIM
Also several domestic cities out of DFW and ORD on eagle

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 04:31:39 and read 21514 times.

Great news.

I knew it! DFW-ICN is a market that has made sense for AA for years - I hope that works out.

The return of DFW-LIM, especially given LAN's rapidly-growing hub there, also makes total sense (and also has for years).

JFK-DUB is an interesting in that it is relatively seasonal, and a competitive market, although it's a market that - like so many others - should not be all that difficult to fill during the summer.

ORD-DUS I am surprised by, given that AB already announced ORD-DUS service - I was somewhat more expecting ORD-BER, but ORD-DUS still seems reasonable. I will be interested to see how it does.

Domestically, DFW-FAR makes sense, and the COU service was already previously known. Return to BPT after so many years is interesting, though.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AmricanShamrok
Posted 2012-10-24 04:34:03 and read 21437 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
ORD-DUS I am surprised by, given that AB already announced ORD-DUS service

Air Berlin is launching Berlin-Chicago next summer, not Dusseldorf-Chicago. AA will go head to head with Lufthansa on this route.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 04:38:45 and read 21384 times.

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 2):
Air Berlin is launching Berlin-Chicago next summer, not Dusseldorf-Chicago. AA will go head to head with Lufthansa on this route.

Ah - sorry I got those mixed up. I question how successful AA's 767 product will be up against Lufthansa's, which is superior, but perhaps with the hub on one end and the partner hub on the other, it will work. Interesting that this markets AA's return to DUS after nearly 20 years.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-10-24 04:40:31 and read 21376 times.

Finally AA finds Asia outside Japan or China. When will Hong Kong begin ? Dusseldorf not a complete surprise, its good they a starting a European flight from ORD, not cancelling one.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 04:50:54 and read 21283 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Finally AA finds Asia outside Japan or China. When will Hong Kong begin ?

Yeah - DFW-ICN has and does make sense, and I agree that it rounds out AA's route portfolio to Asia which has obviously been entirely Japan and China (and China really only for about the last 5-6 years). I have to say I'm personally a bit surprised that LAX-PVG has lasted thus far - didn't think it would with all the competition.

Five months ago, back in May, I argued that, given the alliance and competitive landscape as it now stands, AA needed to three "surgical adds" to their Asia network to be broadly competitive with Delta. This, DFW-ICN, was one of them. The others were DFW-HKG, which I still see as entirely plausible once the 77Ws arrive, and LAX-PEK. With those two additional markets, plus the network JAL and Cathay bring, AA would - in general - be where it needed to be competitively in Asia.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
its good they a starting a European flight from ORD, not cancelling one.

Agreed. I'll be interested to see if ORD-DUS makes it long-term.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: jcwr56
Posted 2012-10-24 04:59:20 and read 21211 times.

Since the cat is out of the bag, AA had been planning 2 new international routes from ORD but only ended up with DUS.

With AB to TXL and now AA to DUS, it will give options for flyer's to connect and compete with Star to Germany and beyond.

[Edited 2012-10-24 05:23:49]

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 05:00:48 and read 21190 times.

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 6):
Since the cat is out of the bag, AA had been planning 2 new international routes from ORD but only ended up with DUS.

Any hints as to what #2 was? Aircraft type to have been used? Region of the world?  

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: Mats
Posted 2012-10-24 05:06:01 and read 21129 times.

Düsseldorf doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe they're hoping to connect with AirBerlin. But AB is in its own financial turmoil. Also, Germany itself is facing tough financial times.

I remember Northwest's very brief DTW-Düsselforf experiment with a 757.

American actually flew from Chicago to Berlin/Tegel in about 1992. It was not successful. The same year, Air Canada tried Toronto-Berlin/Schönefeld with no luck. I love Berlin, but I think it's a tough market for transatlantic service.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: realsim
Posted 2012-10-24 05:10:20 and read 21118 times.

International:

Starts 02APR2013:

AA2193 | DFW-LIM | 17:30-00:25 | 752 | D
AA2194 | LIM-DFW | 02:00-09:15 | 752 | D

Starts 11APR2013:

AA242 | ORD-DUS | 17:00-08:15 | 763 | D
AA241 | DUS-ORD | 12:10-14:20 | 763 | D

Starts 09MAY2013:

AA27 | DFW-ICN | 10:30-15:00 | 772 | D
AA26 | ICN-DFW | 17:00-16:20 | 772 | D

Starts 12JUN2013:

AA290 | JFK-DUB | 18:55-06:55 | 752 | D
AA291 | DUB-JFK | 09:00-11:30 | 752 | D

Domestic:

Starts 14FEB2013:

AA2543 | DFW-BPT | 08:40-09:50 | CR2 | D
AA2521 | DFW-BPT | 11:20-12:35 | CR2 | D
AA2523 | DFW-BPT | 15:10-16:20 | CR2 | D
AA2525 | DFW-BPT | 18:25-19:35 | CR2 | x6
AA2510 | BPT-DFW | 06:30-07:45 | CR2 | D
AA2543 | BPT-DFW | 10:20-11:30 | CR2 | D
AA2521 | BPT-DFW | 13:05-14:15 | CR2 | D
AA2523 | BPT-DFW | 16:50-18:00 | CR2 | x6

Starts 14FEB2013:

AA2537 | DFW-FAR | 12:05-14:30 | CR2 | D
AA2537 | FAR-DFW | 15:05-17:50 | CR2 | D

Starts 14FEB2013:

AA3396 | DFW-COU | 12:00-13:25 | ER4 | D
AA3348 | DFW-COU | 18:55-20:25 | ER4 | x6
AA3215 | COU-DFW | 06:45-08:35 | ER4 | D
AA3291 | COU-DFW | 17:40-19:25 | ER4 | x6

Starts 14FEB2013:

AA3919 | ORD-COU | 15:55-17:10 | ER4 | D
AA3900 | COU-ORD | 13:55-15:20 | ER4 | D

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: Andie007
Posted 2012-10-24 05:11:23 and read 21055 times.

Berlin isn't really a large scale business destination lilke Munich, Frankfurt and Düsseldorf. LH is quite profitable on their longhaul routes and quite good protected this market within the last few years (esp. in granting large scale regional companies quite good fares on their busses).

AA does not surprise me. DUS is currently one of the major hubs in Germany for Air Berlin (and other OW carriers). AB itself will start TXL-ORD besides running already JFK from DUS and TXL. Let's see whether they're able to acquire enough business traveller on the route (which should be more easy comparted to Berlin).

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 05:19:31 and read 21008 times.

With regard to DFW-ICN specifically, it is now going to be interesting to see what impact AA's entrance into the market will have on KE, which has been flying the route for years. AA will obviously have a more convenient schedule (daily) although KE will obviously have the better hard/soft product in all cabins.

I suspect the two can coexist in the market, given that KE is targeting a largely different customer set than AA (more VFR and beyond-ICN connections vs AA's more U.S.-originating, corporate and O&D focus), although I do think KE will probably go back down to year-round 3x weekly 777.

Also of note - unimportant, but interesting - the new DFW-ICN flights will get the old SEA-NRT flight numbers.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: jcwr56
Posted 2012-10-24 05:19:35 and read 20993 times.

Quoting realsim (Reply 9):
Starts 11APR2013:

AA242 | ORD-DUS | 17:00-08:15 | 763 | D
AA241 | DUS-ORD | 12:10-14:20 | 763 | D

This arrival time into ORD is a place holder. It will fall somwhere between 1155-1420.

AA would love the earlier arrival time but issues in DUS is pushing it back to 1420 and probably playing safe by using this time.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: FSDan
Posted 2012-10-24 05:35:02 and read 20855 times.

So is JFK-DUB coming at the expense of ORD-DUB, or is that one back as well?

It is interesting that 3 of the 4 long haul routes will have competition:

DFW-ICN vs KE
ORD-DUS vs LH
JFK-DUB vs EI and DL (and indirectly UA at EWR)

Nonetheless, good to see AA adding international routes, and I hope they do well.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: drerx7
Posted 2012-10-24 05:47:04 and read 20741 times.

DFW-BPT was also a seemingly wise move - with UA pulling air service and sending a bus there from IAH.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mhkansan
Posted 2012-10-24 05:49:07 and read 20740 times.

This is SUPER exciting news! DFW-LIM (Where is BOG!?) has been a LONG time coming, I know ICN is going to do spectacularly with AA"s heavy military traffic, and DUS? Wow! A new European destination!!

Note the domestic trips are on CR2s - those will be OO... Hmmm...

[Edited 2012-10-24 06:01:51]

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-10-24 05:57:12 and read 20654 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 15):
This is SUPER exciting news! DFW-LIM (Where is BOG!?) has been a LONG time comin

Didn't AA fly previously from DFW to Lima ?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 05:58:43 and read 20635 times.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 13):
So is JFK-DUB coming at the expense of ORD-DUB, or is that one back as well?

Good question.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 13):
DFW-ICN vs KE
ORD-DUS vs LH
JFK-DUB vs EI and DL (and indirectly UA at EWR)

Personally, I think AA should be able to hold its own against the competition in all those markets, with the possible exception of ORD-DUS. I will be interested to see if that makes it past the summer 2013 season.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16):
Didn't AA fly previously from DFW to Lima ?

Yes - from 1996 to 2006.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2012-10-24 06:05:39 and read 20576 times.

From what route will AA pull the 772s for the ICN run? I suppose AA will have two or so 77Ws by this time? How many aircraft does it take to run DFW - ICN?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-10-24 06:07:59 and read 20545 times.

All sensible adds except for ORDDUS--that's going to be a bit like JFKBUD but I'm sure the connectivity to PMI will be great . I'm a little surprised ICN came before HKG but there is a lot of high yield traffic to and flowing over DFW that should be right in AA's wheelhouse, rather than--or perhaps in addition to--KE. Also a interesting DUB comes before a secondary UK destination given the BA/AA JV...

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 06:09:13 and read 20524 times.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18):
From what route will AA pull the 772s for the ICN run? I suppose AA will have two or so 77Ws by this time?

Yes. By next May AA will certainly have 2 77Ws - but AA has slack 777 capacity anyway.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18):
How many aircraft does it take to run DFW - ICN?

2 or, more likely, 1.5 if they combine it with a South America route. Example: DFW-ICN and DFW-EZE on their own each require 2 aircraft (for a total of 4) for a daily round-trip with their current schedule, but you can run both daily with only 3 aircraft if you rotate the jets between the two routes.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: gdg9
Posted 2012-10-24 06:11:10 and read 20490 times.

I'm curious to see how the AA DFW-ICN route will fare against KE, who are running 5x a week if I'm not mistaken. KE on board product is superior to AA IMHO, and KE has built up a nice reputation on this route locally over the years.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 06:15:59 and read 20430 times.

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 21):
against KE, who are running 5x a week if I'm not mistaken.

With this, I suspect KE will be reducing frequency again back to where it traditionally was up until recently.

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 21):
KE on board product is superior to AA IMHO, and KE has built up a nice reputation on this route locally over the years.

KE's product is superior, and they do have a good reputation, but AA is also going to capture a large portion of the U.S.-originating traffic in this market, much of which used to transfer over NRT (despite the nonstop KE flight) because of the AAdvantage allegiance. I was once told - and wasn't a bit surprised - that ICN was the single largest connecting market between AA and JAL over NRT.

Ultimately, I do think the two can coexist because they are targeting very different markets. KE focuses more on Asia-originating, or U.S.-originating that is primarily VFR - with lots of connections to the big ethnic markets around Asia. AA is obviously going to be focused far more on the U.S.-originating, business-based market.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-10-24 06:16:46 and read 20417 times.

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 21):
KE on board product is superior to AA IMHO, and KE has built up a nice reputation on this route locally over the years.

It's not really about product, although the new AA product should be competitive. People in DFW, GRK, SAT, etc are going to want AA miles, and that is where AA will have a tremendous advantage over KE, where Skyteam is of much lesser value.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: jcwr56
Posted 2012-10-24 06:17:41 and read 20408 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 6):Since the cat is out of the bag, AA had been planning 2 new international routes from ORD but only ended up with DUS.

Any hints as to what #2 was? Aircraft type to have been used? Region of the world?

763 and Europe

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: neutral
Posted 2012-10-24 06:22:11 and read 20955 times.

Dublin to Chicago still bookable in June/July so looks as if we'll have 2 daily flights to Dublin during the summer....

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: hohd
Posted 2012-10-24 06:25:03 and read 20943 times.

With the addition of DFW-BPT, may be UA will reconsider IAH-BPT plane service (instead of a bus). They will lose quite a few passengers to AA. Also the DFW-LIM will be a good competition to IAH-LIM, which has outrageous fares. Bet quite a few will be willing to go via DFW to save money, unless AA also prices same as UA.

DFW-ICN, I am not sure, it is a long route, not enough traffic to support to two airlines may be, bulk of the traffic is from West Coast. I think one of the airlines KE or AA will pull out eventually.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 06:25:22 and read 21503 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
It's not really about product, although the new AA product should be competitive. People in DFW, GRK, SAT, etc are going to want AA miles, and that is where AA will have a tremendous advantage over KE, where Skyteam is of much lesser value.

Not to mention that AA will be able to do with DFW-ICN what it has for years been doing with DFW-NRT - namely, moving tons of people and cargo over DFW to/from Latin America. GRU, GIG, SCL, EZE and now LIM not only will be contributing significant feed to DFW-NRT, but also DFW-ICN. That is something else AA will definitely benefit from in the DFW-ICN market.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: aaexecplat
Posted 2012-10-24 06:26:42 and read 21391 times.

Quoting Mats (Reply 8):
Düsseldorf doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe they're hoping to connect with AirBerlin.

I can't make sense of this route either. JFK-FRA would have been a much better option especially with regard to yields.

Quoting Mats (Reply 8):
Also, Germany itself is facing tough financial times.

Not nearly to the same degrees as most developed nations on this planet.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: Tdan
Posted 2012-10-24 06:27:21 and read 21423 times.

Love all the new adds except ORDDUS is a head scratcher. Even ORDHEL (which was a terrible add) made more logical sense. DUS-US is almost entirely DUS point of sale, predominantly coach and the vast majority of premium traffic flies on LH. If AA can't make ORDBRU work, there's no way ORDDUS works.

DFWICN will be a home run. Large local ethnic traffic + significant military connections + booming ICN-US traffic will make it a hit. Only issue is that the F/C cabin traffic is a little skinny.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-10-24 06:29:53 and read 21446 times.

Wowowowowowowowowowowow. This made my day!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TWO new exciting international routes from DFW, although not unserved previously - and ORD-DUS and JFK-DUB

Revolutionary for AA standards  
Quoting commavia (Reply 11):

With regard to DFW-ICN specifically, it is now going to be interesting to see what impact AA's entrance into the market will have on KE, which has been flying the route for years. AA will obviously have a more convenient schedule (daily) although KE will obviously have the better hard/soft product in all cabins.

This was the first thing that came to mind. I hope that KE stays, they've had a long history with DFW and have weathered through some tough times to remain a success story.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
although I do think KE will probably go back down to year-round 3x weekly 777.

Yes, probable.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AmricanShamrok
Posted 2012-10-24 06:39:13 and read 21227 times.

Quoting realsim (Reply 9):
Starts 12JUN2013:

AA290 | JFK-DUB | 18:55-06:55 | 752 | D
AA291 | DUB-JFK | 09:00-11:30 | 752 | D

This is competing head to head with United from Newark in terms of timings and aircraft type. To compare:

UA22 | EWR-DUB | 19:10-06:55 | 752
UA23 | DUB-EWR | 09:00-11:40 | 752

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: HeeseokKoo
Posted 2012-10-24 07:03:56 and read 21014 times.

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 21):
KE on board product is superior to AA IMHO, and KE has built up a nice reputation on this route locally over the years.

DFW-ICN used to be the last destination with KE's latest product. When KE upgraded cradle style business class to angled lie-flat and installed AVOD on all classes, DFW wasn't see those up-to-date products until the last 772 plane was refurbished. Currently, while many other routes see full flat business class, still angled lie-flat equipped planes run on DFW route. When other destinations see frequency increase, DFW got upgauged to 747 instead. In the end, it became 5/w (from 3/w for a long time), but missing on Monday and Friday sucks when scheduling a short trip. Discrimination of the ICN-DFW happened because of the lack of competition and weaker premium class traffic (I guess).

AA offers much better schedule. And for many Americans, AA service makes more sense. KE planes don't have individual air conditioning system, and keeps temperature warm. I saw one person undress his shirt (gross) because flight attendant hesitated in dropping temperature on DFW-ICN a couple of weeks ago. Temperature was fine with me, but I bet it was warm for many Americans. Also KE doesn't accept non-Korean credit card on the phone or web. Only in-person. No exceptions. It created problem when purchasing award ticket or when purchasing AUS-DFW-ICN ticket directly through Korean air. Latter issue can only be avoided if I buy through a travel agency, though. (I had to miss 5% chase freedom credit card cashback)

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: sw733
Posted 2012-10-24 07:08:34 and read 20885 times.

Quoting realsim (Reply 9):
AA27 | DFW-ICN | 10:30-15:00 | 772 | D
AA26 | ICN-DFW | 17:00-16:20 | 772 | D

I am a happy camper now! I think I'll be doing more business in Korea, and it usually ends at about 12:00pm on the final day so I can make it out that night...how nice!

To say that I am thrilled to see ICN is an understatement. Tired of connecting through NRT!

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 07:12:42 and read 20850 times.

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 32):
AA offers much better schedule.
Quoting sw733 (Reply 33):
it usually ends at about 12:00pm on the final day so I can make it out that night...how nice!

The joint AA/JL schedule out of ICN heading east is now going to be quite competitive. JL has 2 daily ICN-NRT flights, one in the morning (0800) and one in the afternoon (1335), and both connect to the eastbound NRT-U.S. banks, and now AA will have an evening ICN-DFW nonstop (1700). That provides great flexibility throughout the day for those heading back ICN-U.S. on oneworld.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-10-24 07:17:24 and read 20792 times.

Quoting aacun (Thread starter):
AA annouces Dallas/Ft. worth-Seoul service....... Also ORD-DUS, JFK-DUB and DFW-LIM
Also several domestic cities out of DFW and ORD on eagle

Doubt ORD-DUS will work with Star Alliance so strong at both ends. I hope they do DFW-ICN wit ha 773 cuz the yields will be low and they need a place with a low CASM

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
The return of DFW-LIM, especially given LAN's rapidly-growing hub there, also makes total sense (and also has for years).

I agree

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
Domestically, DFW-FAR makes sense

Good ad, but long for an ERJ.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
With regard to DFW-ICN specifically, it is now going to be interesting to see what impact AA's entrance into the market will have on KE, which has been flying the route for years. AA will obviously have a more convenient schedule (daily) although KE will obviously have the better hard/soft product in all cabins.

KE has more connections beyond ICN.


[quote=mhkansan,reply=15]Where is BOG!?[/quoteA ]
A good A319 market

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: crAAzy
Posted 2012-10-24 07:18:56 and read 20764 times.

Good news on all fronts. I'm particularly excited about the ORD-DUS route although personally I would have preferred AA to fly ORD - Berlin on it's own metal with AB on ORD-DUS. AA should do well on this route given it fills a nice gap in AA's Northern European route map, the business in the area, and the partnership with AB.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18):
From what route will AA pull the 772s for the ICN run? I suppose AA will have two or so 77Ws by this time? How many aircraft does it take to run DFW - ICN?

It's likely to be a 3 class 772 when the route starts, but this is a route screaming for the 77W or a 789 (with an F product) in the future, especially if AA can capture more of the Samsung business travel.

Quoting realsim (Reply 9):

AA2193 | DFW-LIM | 17:30-00:25 | 752 | D
AA2194 | LIM-DFW | 02:00-09:15 | 752 | D

Timing on LIM is quite interesting for AA ... there aren't too many AA flights schedule for 02:00 departures but I guess the article alludes to this also being geared towards Japan/Pacific connections. Is this going to be one long down and back for the crew on these flights?

Quoting realsim (Reply 9):

Starts 12JUN2013:

AA290 | JFK-DUB | 18:55-06:55 | 752 | D
AA291 | DUB-JFK | 09:00-11:30 | 752 | D

If I remember correctly AA used to run a JFK-DUB almost year round (via SNN) with a 767. Not a big surprise to see them return (if in fact it turns out to be only seasonally with a 752).

[Edited 2012-10-24 07:37:12]

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: crAAzy
Posted 2012-10-24 07:26:51 and read 20744 times.

Also interesting is that DFW-ICN will now become AA's second longest route (only about 200 miles behind ORD-PVG).

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-10-24 07:30:23 and read 20607 times.

This is the single best piece of news I've heard all year. I'm serious.

I am ecstatic!

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-24 07:33:17 and read 20637 times.

It goes without saying that this pretty much made my month!!!!!      

Ill go one by one:

DFW-ICN - This route has been rumored since I moved to Dallas three years ago. There is a lot of DFW originating traffic bound for ICN so I do think this will be a success, however it may come at the expsense of KE. In the Dallas market, KE has sort of become the airline for the Asian ethnic community in the subrubs to the North and West of Dallas (like Plano, Carrollton, Irving, etc.). I do always enjoy talking with the KE flight attendents when I visit the King Spa in Dallas' Koreatown. I dont know if they have ever really been able to capture much of the business traffic. That is where AA will be able to one-up them I think. I am not sure if they both can co-exist on DFW-ICN. Perhaps a reduced frequency on DFW-ICN will be in order. 10x weekly is more than doable on DFW-ICN between two carriers.

DFW-LIM - To me this one should have happened a while ago. AA has a closer relationship with LAN than when this was previously flown. Given how much LAN has expanded out of LIM, this should work nicely. Not to mention the South American community in Texas (primarily Houston and Dallas) has grown exponentially as have the business ties. This flight goes a long way toward completeing a DFW-South America hub. The only other route that should be flown from DFW is BOG. After that, DFW-South America will be complete. That one could be a good 319 route.

ORD-DUS - Finally, its nice to see some growth in the ORD-Europe market. A big disappointment has always been that AA let ORD-Europe slide the way it did. Im glad to see a new route from Chicago and Im hoping for more in the future.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-10-24 07:47:49 and read 20444 times.

Since AB has hubs at both Berlin and DUS, AA/AB/Oneworld must expect to capture traffic that can connect through AB's hubs in Germany, as well as U.S. traffic connecting at ORD.

Remember that long before Star, LH and AA codeshared on flights out of ORD. When the old international terminal was torn down to build the current UA terminal, a ticketing and customs/immigration facility was built on the first level of the parking garage, with buses moving passengers to and from remote hard stands.

Some carriers decided to sublease gate space and ticket counters in Terminals 2 and 3. LH sublet space from DL on Concourse L. So, LH flew a DC-10-30 on ORD-DUS (which continued on to MUC). AA flew a 767 on ORD-MUC. Each flew an ORD-FRA roundtrip. When LH decided to shift its codeshares in the U.S. to UA, in anticipation for starting the Star Alliance, AA started flying ORD-DUS with its own aircraft.

With no connecting feed at MUC and DUS, both routes were eventually dropped.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-10-24 08:05:58 and read 20291 times.

Will this make ICN the Asian airport served by the most amount of US-based (passenger) airlines? There will be AA, UA, DL and HA.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 08:07:06 and read 20339 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 35):
I hope they do DFW-ICN wit ha 773

I don't expect AA to put a plane that large on DFW-ICN.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 35):
cuz the yields will be low and they need a place with a low CASM

With the amount of corporate and O&D traffic that exists in that market, I'm not so sure it is going to be all that particularly low-yielding.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 35):
KE has more connections beyond ICN.

And AA has more connections beyond DFW.  
Quoting crAAzy (Reply 36):
although personally I would have preferred AA to fly ORD - Berlin on it's own metal with AB on ORD-DUS.

  

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 36):
Timing on LIM is quite interesting for AA ... there aren't too many AA flights schedule for 02:00 departures. Is this going to be one long down and back for the crew on these flights?

That schedule is very close to what AA's schedule on DFW-LIM used to be - and it is timed perfectly for domestic and international connections.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 36):
If I remember correctly AA used to run a JFK-DUB almost year round (via SNN) with a 767.

I may well be wrong but I do not believe AA has flown New York-Ireland since the AOA days (circa 1950s).

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 36):
Not a big surprise to see them return (if in fact it turns out to be only seasonally with a 752).

I don't know if AA would be able to make JFK-DUB work in the winter.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-10-24 08:15:45 and read 20284 times.

ORD - PEK / PVG
LAX - PVG
DFW - ICN

It's nice to see them finally expanding to Asia, but a single TPAC hub probably would serve them better than seemingly p2p services.

Regarding DFW-HKG rumors, it feels like ORD-HEL : hub-to-hub for the sake of it. 8123mi for a mostly connection-oriented route requires EK-level CASM to make it work (i'd dread 3-4-3 on this 17 hour flight)

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 08:47:59 and read 19937 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 43):
ORD - PEK / PVG
LAX - PVG
DFW - ICN

It's nice to see them finally expanding to Asia, but a single TPAC hub probably would serve them better than seemingly p2p services.

P2P? All of those link major foreign markets with major U.S. hubs for AA. A "single TPAC hub" is not economically or strategically feasible for AA - or really any U.S. carrier - just because of the sheer size of the U.S. No U.S. carrier - including Delta and United - have a "single TPAC hub."

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 43):
Regarding DFW-HKG rumors, it feels like ORD-HEL : hub-to-hub for the sake of it.

Well, "hub-to-hub for the sake of it," when the hubs on both ends are massive like with DFW-HKG, isn't such a bad thing.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 43):
8123mi for a mostly connection-oriented route requires EK-level CASM to make it work

I suspect not.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 43):
(i'd dread 3-4-3 on this 17 hour flight)

Would it be 17 hours? It's less than 60 miles longer than EWR-HKG, which is scheduled at or just below 16 hours westbound.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: YYZBound
Posted 2012-10-24 08:57:06 and read 19755 times.

I'm not sure why everyone is dogging the ORD-HEL route...it actually is quite full according to my friends who work it.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-10-24 09:16:44 and read 19410 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 44):
P2P? All of those link major foreign markets with major U.S. hubs for AA. A "single TPAC hub" is not economically or strategically feasible for AA - or really any U.S. carrier - just because of the sheer size of the U.S. No U.S. carrier - including Delta and United - have a "single TPAC hub."

UA has a single core TPAC hub at SFO with bespoke services out of other hubs. DL used to have a single DTW hub but started to realize SEA is more geographically favorable. AA could easily pick LAX or ORD.

Quoting commavia (Reply 44):
Would it be 17 hours? It's less than 60 miles longer than EWR-HKG, which is scheduled at or just below 16 hours westbound.

DFW-HKG westbound would require a much more southerly routing (i.e. headwinds) than a near pure-polar routing of EWR-HKG. Also, the great circle routing goes straight through Pyongyang, so I'd imagine some sort of detour is in order.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-24 09:23:06 and read 19318 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 46):
UA has a single core TPAC hub at SFO with bespoke services out of other hubs.
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 46):
AA could easily pick LAX or ORD.

While UA has SFO as its largest Asian hub, UA's Asian network (ex-NRT) is scattered between SFO, ORD, and EWR. For that reason, I dont think the first statement is accurate. The only destinations served from SFO that arent from ORD or EWR are KIX, ICN, and TPE.

DL has DTW as its primary hub, but has built up SEA to Asia and ATL has service to NRT and ICN. They arent centralized either.

As for AA, why force everything through one place when they dont have to? UA and DL dont, why should AA?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-10-24 09:26:52 and read 19273 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 44):
Well, "hub-to-hub for the sake of it," when the hubs on both ends are massive like with DFW-HKG, isn't such a bad thing.

DL's ATL-PVG is also massive on both ends, and that failed miserably (with 500 mile shorter routing, longer range equipment, better brand recognition, and less backtracking for mainland China)

I'm not saying AA won't succeed on DFW-HKG, but if history is of any guidance, they would need a lot of luck.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: cgnnrw
Posted 2012-10-24 09:46:55 and read 18931 times.

Happy to see another carrier/destination from DUS to the States. Although I was secretly hoping for DUS-DTW or DUS-PHL (previously discussed on another thread) I'm not as pessimistic about this as other posters. Even with a limited amount of AB connections on the DUS side I think this could prove to be a success for AA.

The catchment area for DUS is very large and reaches over into the Netherlands. The rail connections are very good. This alone speaks for DUS. Yes, rail connections with the ICE to FRA are convenient but many trains pass by the DUS station anyway so why not hop out at the DUS station and leave from there?

What type of product do the AA 767s have?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 09:48:27 and read 18907 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 46):
UA has a single core TPAC hub at SFO with bespoke services out of other hubs. DL used to have a single DTW hub but started to realize SEA is more geographically favorable. AA could easily pick LAX or ORD.

Okay, so ... in other words ... as I said, the other two U.S. carriers also don't have a "single TPAC hub," which was the original assertion. Core hub - that's a different story. United certainly has their "core TPAC hub" in SFO - no question about that. Delta really doesn't have a "core TPAC hub" though - they seem to be pretty evenly distributing their non-NRT flying between DTW and SEA. That's similar to AA - which will now have flights nonstop from 3 U.S. gateways to 2 Asian destinations each, with the exception of ORD which will have 3. Seems reasonable to me - no reason to "force" all that traffic through a single point that is suboptimal economically or from a network perspective.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 48):
I'm not saying AA won't succeed on DFW-HKG, but if history is of any guidance, they would need a lot of luck.

Well, I guess it depends on which "history" you choose to base predictions of the future upon. I seem to remember a certain amount of "skepticism" regarding the prospects for DFW-SYD, which is arguably an even more challenging hub-to-hub market to make work given its stage length, the peculiarity of nonstop one way and 1-stop the other, and the fact that the hub at the other end is smaller. And yet, the success of that route speaks for itself. Personally, I think that given the plethora of connections available at both ends of a hypothetical DFW-HKG route, that would also be a highly successful route if added (and I personally fully expect DFW-HKG to happen at some point in the future as long as Cathay Pacific stays in oneworld).

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 49):
I'm not as pessimistic about this as other posters. Even with a limited amount of AB connections on the DUS side I think this could prove to be a success for AA.

I agree. I don't think it's a definite failure, but not a guaranteed success, either. I'll be interested to see how it does.

Quoting cgnnrw (Reply 49):
What type of product do the AA 767s have?

Outdated J, horribly outdated Y.

[Edited 2012-10-24 09:50:05]

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: VC10DC10
Posted 2012-10-24 10:00:02 and read 18733 times.

Quoting YYZBound (Reply 45):
I'm not sure why everyone is dogging the ORD-HEL route...it actually is quite full according to my friends who work it.

I still think this route makes a lot of sense (and a lot more sense than a lot of ORD-XYZ Europe routes that some have suggested).

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 46):

UA has a single core TPAC hub at SFO with bespoke services out of other hubs. DL used to have a single DTW hub but started to realize SEA is more geographically favorable. AA could easily pick LAX or ORD.

Except LAX is swamped with competition from a dozen major Asian carriers, and UA has a pretty extensive ORD-Asia operation as well.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 46):

DFW-HKG westbound would require a much more southerly routing (i.e. headwinds) than a near pure-polar routing of EWR-HKG. Also, the great circle routing goes straight through Pyongyang, so I'd imagine some sort of detour is in order.

  

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: pesit4a
Posted 2012-10-24 10:03:07 and read 18508 times.

Dublin Airport advise JFK-DUB will be all year round.

I doubt AA will have much of a problem here. NYC is not nearly as seasonal as other US routes from Ireland. Of the current 4 daily flights in the market, only DL downgauges in winter.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: YYZBound
Posted 2012-10-24 10:07:50 and read 18418 times.

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 51):
I still think this route makes a lot of sense (and a lot more sense than a lot of ORD-XYZ Europe routes that some have suggested).

People said the same about BUD but it was always full as well. And it made sense to provide the traffic to Malev's network until they ceased operations

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: styles9002
Posted 2012-10-24 10:18:24 and read 18223 times.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 36):
If I remember correctly AA used to run a JFK-DUB almost year round (via SNN) with a 767. Not a big surprise to see them return (if in fact it turns out to be only seasonally with a 752).

AA operated BOS-SNN with a B757 in 2005 and some of 2006 in addition to ORD-DUB. When BOS-SNN was axed, AA re-routed ORD-DUB to be ORD-DUB-SNN to comply the then bilateral in force. Once Open Skies was implemented in 2008, AA reverted back to just ORD-DUB which it still operates today.

JFK-DUB should do well. It is not really a seasonal route like JFK-SNN is and should have a fair amount of premium demand.

ORD-DUS is a route I didn't expect to see but hopefully AA will do well with it. DUS is a great catchment area so maybe the route planners see something there that will work.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2012-10-24 10:28:56 and read 18068 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 30):
Wowowowowowowowowowowow. This made my day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  


.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 39):
DFW-LIM - To me this one should have happened a while ago. AA has a closer relationship with LAN than when this was previously flown. Given how much LAN has expanded out of LIM, this should work nicely. Not to mention the South American community in Texas (primarily Houston and Dallas) has grown exponentially as have the business ties. This flight goes a long way toward completeing a DFW-South America hub. The only other route that should be flown from DFW is BOG. After that, DFW-South America will be complete. That one could be a good 319 route.

        

This flight was long overdue and with the Peruvian economy booming it should do WELL. I'm sure AA will test the waters first with the 757 and will eventually deploy the 767 to offer a more seamless product for those flying LIM-Asia via DFW.

Now LAN has to fly to Chicago-O'Hare and then LIM will be connected to most (if not all) of AA's cornerstone hubs.  

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: upsmd11
Posted 2012-10-24 10:29:44 and read 18098 times.

Interesting to see CR2 on the AA schedule, I thought they were all CR7 and ER4.

Who is flying these for AA?

John

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-10-24 10:40:19 and read 17940 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 3):
I question how successful AA's 767 product will be up against Lufthansa's,

Well, don't forget, the 763 biz class will "soon" be getting the new "biz suite" seats. The question is, how "soon" is "soon" which for AA could be 8 to 10 years!

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 36):
It's likely to be a 3 class 772 when the route starts,

And if it stays a 772, it would become a 2 class 772 once they take F out and put in the new "biz suite" seats.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-10-24 10:57:25 and read 17761 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 50):
Well, I guess it depends on which "history" you choose to base predictions of the future upon. I seem to remember a certain amount of "skepticism" regarding the prospects for DFW-SYD, which is arguably an even more challenging hub-to-hub market to make work given its stage length, the peculiarity of nonstop one way and 1-stop the other, and the fact that the hub at the other end is smaller. And yet, the success of that route speaks for itself. Personally, I think that given the plethora of connections available at both ends of a hypothetical DFW-HKG route, that would also be a highly successful route if added (and I personally fully expect DFW-HKG to happen at some point in the future as long as Cathay Pacific stays in oneworld).

No one knows how DFW-SYD is doing other than vague statements from management. We all thought EWR-SIN or ORD-DEL was doing fine since each kept it around for so many years but eventually both collapsed when the red ink starts to creep in. Strangely enough, airlines are willing to keep loss-leaders a lot longer than we think.

For China originating pax, going to N.A. via HKG is a major backtrack compared to NRT. For HKG originating pax going to N.A., CX's existing services to LAX / ORD / JFK would already cover most U.S. connections more efficiently. For HKG going to deep south America, say GRU, via DFW is 17.5% longer than via JNB.

If the route is so profitable, why isn't CX doing it ?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: boberito6589
Posted 2012-10-24 11:03:59 and read 17636 times.

Quoting upsmd11 (Reply 56):
Who is flying these for AA?

ExpressJet out of DFW and SkyWest out of LAX

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-24 11:07:39 and read 17584 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 58):
No one knows how DFW-SYD is doing other than vague statements from management.

Well, the scheduled has been continually increased and very few people ever though ORD-DEL was doing well. Managment from American never once said they were pleased with the preformance. They have with the QF DFW flight. It has been successful.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 58):
For China originating pax, going to N.A. via HKG is a major backtrack compared to NRT. For HKG originating pax going to N.A., CX's existing services to LAX / ORD / JFK would already cover most U.S. connections more efficiently. For HKG going to deep south America, say GRU, via DFW is 17.5% longer than via JNB.

If the route is so profitable, why isn't CX doing it ?

I would say because the 77W is too large for the market. A 787 or 350 would be a great plane for a route like that.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-10-24 11:08:32 and read 17584 times.

Quoting Reply 54):
ORD-DUS is a route I didn't expect to see but hopefully AA will do well with it. DUS is a great catchment area so maybe the route planners see something there that will work.

This is the one I'm actually unsure of. AA couldn't hack ORDFRA (although UA/LH just simply steamrolled them on this route). With an existing ORDDUS route on LH, who knows if both airlines will be able to sustain daily services in the weak winter and shoulder periods. I'm more surprised that they announced this one as a year-round route rather than seasonal, like ORDHEL.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 55):
Now LAN has to fly to Chicago-O'Hare and then LIM will be connected to most (if not all) of AA's cornerstone hubs.

That would be nice, but there really isn't a need for LAN to fly to ORD at the moment.

Also, if anything, I am hoping that the new DFWLIM route serves as an early indicator that LATAM will remain in OneWorld.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 58):
No one knows how DFW-SYD is doing other than vague statements from management.

If DFWSYD were under-performing at this juncture, then QF would have probably axed it by now. It is soon to become the world's longest flight on an extremely high-CASM aircraft. QF has not hesitated to restructure their international network considerably over the years and DFW has survived round after round of chopping. I think it's fairly safe to say it's staying in the longer realm.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 58):
We all thought EWR-SIN or ORD-DEL was doing fine since each kept it around for so many years but eventually both collapsed when the red ink starts to creep in. Strangely enough, airlines are willing to keep loss-leaders a lot longer than we think.

It was hoped that ORDDEL would thrive with all the growth and wealth in India at the time it was launched, as well as the partnerships and codeshare agreements with carriers such as Jet Airways and the eventual entrance of Kingfisher into OneWorld. Once all of that faded, and a government-propped airline such as AI flooded the market with more capacity, it basically drove a dagger through its heart.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 11:09:57 and read 17575 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 58):
No one knows how DFW-SYD is doing other than vague statements from management.

Well ... that ... and the fact that QANTAS has substantially grown its operation on the route since it started. I realize that doesn't necessarily "prove" anything, but that doesn't seem like something an airline would do if a route was a loser, particularly an airline like QANTAS that has been so intently focused of late on turning around their struggling international network.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 58):
We all thought EWR-SIN or ORD-DEL was doing fine since each kept it around for so many years but eventually both collapsed when the red ink starts to creep in.

No, actually there was a great deal of debate and discussion about the relative success of both of those routes for years before they were cancelled. Outside of A.net, everything else - at least publicly - seems to indicate that DFW-SYD has been quite successful, up to and including vocal statements from QANTAS, and the fact that QANTAS has substantially expanded capacity on the route since it launched.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 58):
For China originating pax, going to N.A. via HKG is a major backtrack compared to NRT.

And yet thousands of people do just that every year.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 58):
If the route is so profitable, why isn't CX doing it ?

I have no idea - perhaps it doesn't fit with their strategy, or fleet plan. But just as you are correct that merely the continued existence of a route does not, in and of itself, indicate that the route is profitable, it is also true that merely the lack of a nonstop route does not, in and of itself, indicate that one couldn't or wouldn't or won't be profitable if it were started.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2012-10-24 11:22:58 and read 17351 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 61):
That would be nice, but there really isn't a need for LAN to fly to ORD at the moment.

Let me disagree with you on this one as LAN expressed an interest in flying into ORD from LIM as recently as this year. Also, if i'm not mistaken, LAN Perú currently holds the route authority for LIM-ORD flights.


.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 61):
Also, if anything, I am hoping that the new DFWLIM route serves as an early indicator that LATAM will remain in OneWorld.

LAN is staying with OneWorld. Not so sure if TAM will eventually join the alliance.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: realsim
Posted 2012-10-24 11:24:10 and read 17371 times.

Quoting upsmd11 (Reply 56):
Interesting to see CR2 on the AA schedule, I thought they were all CR7 and ER4.

Who is flying these for AA?

They will be flown as "American Eagle" by EV with 11 CRJ-200. From LAX, OO will fly 12 CR2 as well.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-10-24 11:43:51 and read 17095 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16):
Didn't AA fly previously from DFW to Lima ?

Yep, I flew it back in 2002. Was totally full going down, but only about half full coming back.

So what's next left for DFW-South America?

DFW-BOG
DFW-CLO
DFW-LPB
DFW-UIO
DFW-GYE


I wouldn't have expected DFW-GIG either, so I suppose any of these have a chance.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: caliboy78
Posted 2012-10-24 11:48:53 and read 17045 times.

I'm wondering what AA has in store for LAX      

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-24 11:49:06 and read 17085 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 65):
So what's next left for DFW-South America?

DFW-BOG
DFW-CLO
DFW-LPB
DFW-UIO
DFW-GYE

DFW-CLO/LPB/UIO/GYE are all non-starters. Those wouldnt work from DFW. UIO barely works from IAH and ATL. The former as a larger O&D and the later is in a much better geography to serve those markets.

DFW-BOG, I maintain, would work nicely. Its an excellent route for a 319.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2012-10-24 12:08:49 and read 16822 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
Any hints as to what #2 was? Aircraft type to have been used? Region of the world?  

IST was mentioned in the post by an "insider" who broke the DFW-ICN news on 10/18, then quickly erased his/her post on FT.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mtnwest1979
Posted 2012-10-24 12:21:35 and read 16588 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 35):
Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
Domestically, DFW-FAR makes sense

Good ad, but long for an ERJ.

True, but it will be flown with CR2s.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-10-24 12:32:56 and read 16435 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 65):
I wouldn't have expected DFW-GIG either, so I suppose any of these have a chance.

GIG is a far more promising candidate than small, think markets like UIO, GYE and CLO.

AA also has to maintain an optimal balance between its MIA and DFW hubs when it comes to the Latin American network to avoid cannibalization. DFW is better-suited for all of Mexico and core markets in Central/South America + some Caribbean. For MIA, it's pretty much the opposite.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-10-24 12:45:25 and read 16262 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 60):
.... very few people ever though ORD-DEL was doing well. Managment from American never once said they were pleased with the preformance.

And yet they flew it for how many years ? 6 ? 8 ?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-24 12:48:53 and read 16204 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 71):
And yet they flew it for how many years ? 6 ? 8 ?

It did fine for portions of the time, it was never a barn burner. It wasnt until AI also entered the market that ORD-DEL became a high-speed money bleeder.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-10-24 12:50:40 and read 16221 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 42):
KE has more connections beyond ICN.

And AA has more connections beyond DFW.

Are there more people flying to ICN beyond DFW or more people flying from DFW to points beyond ICN? It is telling that DL couldnt make ATl-ICN work, but KE can.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-10-24 13:34:15 and read 15738 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 72):
It did fine for portions of the time, it was never a barn burner. It wasnt until AI also entered the market that ORD-DEL became a high-speed money bleeder.

AI is an airline with a so-so reputation and can't even close the deal to enter Star Alliance. Don't really understand why AA has trouble competing with that (but would do fine against Korean Air) ?

ORD-DUS would also be interesting to see how well they go against LH (and whether it's self-sustainable in case AirBerlin bails on oneworld)

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-24 13:46:57 and read 15594 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 74):
AI is an airline with a so-so reputation and can't even close the deal to enter Star Alliance. Don't really understand why AA has trouble competing with that (but would do fine against Korean Air) ?

Its very simple to understand actually. AI is owned by the government. There is no pressure to make any profit at all because they know that India will never let them die, so they can charge bottom barrell fares that no one else can compete with. To put this in perspective, when AI and AA shared ORD-DEL, the average paid fare on ORD-DEL was less than that of ORD-MAN. Yet the distance is over twice as long with a larger much more expensive aircraft to opperate. Its pretty clear as to why AA might be able to compete with an Asian carrier, but not AI.

The only market where a North American carrier can co-exist with Air India is Newark and thats only because the market size is so massive because of the huge Indian community in New Jersey.

American and Korean Air dont have the luxury that Air India does. We do have the Chapter 11 process (which UA, AA, DL, NW, CO, and US all have used), but eventually the airline is forced to stand on its own. I actually think KE will end up going back to 3x weekly from DFW-ICN.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-10-24 14:04:29 and read 15496 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 75):
To put this in perspective, when AI and AA shared ORD-DEL, the average paid fare on ORD-DEL was less than that of ORD-MAN.

ORD-MAN is a totally different animal. The fares are high because it has some BA cust base on the other side and monopoly status. If UA ever enters the yields would be flushed in no time.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-24 14:07:57 and read 15428 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 76):

ORD-MAN is a totally different animal. The fares are high because it has some BA cust base on the other side and monopoly status. If UA ever enters the yields would be flushed in no time.

Perhaps, but the point is still there. Competing with Air India is a lot harder than with most reputable carriers. Not because Air India is better, but because they can get away with fares that no carrier can make a profit matching.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: pilotfox
Posted 2012-10-24 14:27:42 and read 15228 times.

Anyone know when these become bookable, looking to redeem AA miles to PRG in July and hoping they open up some award space on the DUS route.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: Fly2yyz
Posted 2012-10-24 14:34:06 and read 15153 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 75):
I actually think KE will end up going back to 3x weekly from DFW-ICN.

It'll be interesting to see how AA does in the market. I think connecting traffic will be vital for this route to survive on the AA side. But I don't know if KE will revert back to its 3x weekly... I mean even with an alliance partner DL on the ICN-ATL route competing on the route KE didn't back down.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2012-10-24 14:35:08 and read 15217 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 73):
It is telling that DL couldnt make ATl-ICN work, but KE can.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 75):
I actually think KE will end up going back to 3x weekly from DFW-ICN.

Samsung. Samsung. Samsung.

Of anywhere in Asia that AA could have picked for strong O&D traffic from the DFW hub, it would be ICN if you understand the level of S. Korean business ties there are to TX. That said, I expect AA's service to be rather easy to score SWU upgrades on, at least initially. I bet it was killing AA to only be able to carry premium traffic from AUS to ICN as far as DFW.

Just this past August, Samsung announced a further $4B investment in the Austin area.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-24 14:43:24 and read 15087 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 80):
Samsung. Samsung. Samsung.

Of anywhere in Asia that AA could have picked for strong O&D traffic from the DFW hub, it would be ICN if you understand the level of S. Korean business ties there are to TX. That said, I expect AA's service to be rather easy to score SWU upgrades on, at least initially. I bet it was killing AA to only be able to carry premium traffic from AUS to ICN as far as DFW.

True that. Samsung Telecommunications America is headquatered in Dallas and Samsung has a huge semiconductor opperation in Austin.

I also dont know if it has been mentioned this thread, but DFW-ICN is the largest Texas-Asia O&D market. Maybe not large enough to fill two planes on O&D, but large enough where connections on both ends could help.

[Edited 2012-10-24 14:44:35]

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-10-24 14:45:36 and read 15067 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 74):
and whether it's self-sustainable in case AirBerlin bails on oneworld

And seemingly quite probable with EY very openly saying they want AB to develop a broad partnership with AF/KL.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 80):
I bet it was killing AA to only be able to carry premium traffic from AUS to ICN as far as DFW.

I suspect they do DFW-NRT today and connect to ICN on JL. Korea is a market already under the AA-JL ATI JV.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-10-24 15:03:21 and read 14887 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 81):
I also dont know if it has been mentioned this thread, but DFW-ICN is the largest Texas-Asia O&D market. Maybe not large enough to fill two planes on O&D, but large enough where connections on both ends could help.

What's the O&D PDEW ? 200 ? 500 ? And does AA or KE have the Samsung contract ?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: Tdan
Posted 2012-10-24 15:13:48 and read 14812 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 81):
True that. Samsung Telecommunications America is headquatered in Dallas and Samsung has a huge semiconductor opperation in Austin.

I also dont know if it has been mentioned this thread, but DFW-ICN is the largest Texas-Asia O&D market. Maybe not large enough to fill two planes on O&D, but large enough where connections on both ends could help.

   Only thing is that Samsung travels in the coach cabin. DFW-ICN will be a star with very high-yielding coach traffic (local O&D, Samsung, US Military predominantly out of GRK/SAT), but it will be light up front in terms of paid LF. Still, the coach cabin will more than make up for the lack of front cabin demand.

Also, don't forget cargo. ICN and DFW are two of the largest airfreight markets in the world and this will make a tangible difference at the margin.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-24 15:15:04 and read 14781 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 83):
What's the O&D PDEW ? 200 ? 500 ? And does AA or KE have the Samsung contract ?

Um, no its closer to 75-90 range depending on the year. The ICN local market that are near that size are LAX and NYC. Not even SFO-ICN is that large and there are 4 flights a day in that market. I do know that there is more traffic from DFW-Korea than there is from Korea-DFW.

Where KE (and AA for that matter) will fill up is on connection at both the ICN and DFW ends respectively. Those flights arent there to soley serve the O&D market. When you throw in the connection at ICN for KE and the connections at DFW for AA, then filling the planes become easy. There will probably be some balancing out of the market. 12x weekly is too much without hubs at both ends. However 7-10x weekly is perfectly doable.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-24 15:15:33 and read 14775 times.

Quoting caliboy78 (Reply 66):
I'm wondering what AA has in store for LAX

I don't realistically see an enormous amount of additional organic growth left for AA at LAX. They already fly to most of the major markets they need to. There are a few more surgical domestic adds I think could potentially be plausible at some point (MCI, PHL, SAT, maybe even MSY and/or RDU) and a few more international markets that might work (PEK, KIX), but overall AA already has about the network it needs and can support in and out of LAX. The only potential change to that would be if AA "lost" Alaska - which, for the record I don't see happening anytime soon if ever. If that were to occur, the online connections might just be enough for AA to justify 2x daily A319s LAX-SEA, but not much else.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 67):
DFW-BOG, I maintain, would work nicely. Its an excellent route for a 319.

  

BOG seems logical, as does SAP.

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 79):
I think connecting traffic will be vital for this route to survive on the AA side.

Yes, and I suspect AA will have little trouble finding that connecting traffic. As has already been alluded to, commercial trade linkages between Korea and the U.S., and in particular Texas and the south, are large and growing. There are tons of Korean companies with factories and/or large operations in the U.S. south, for whom this flight is going to be a perfect fit.

And, of course, that doesn't even touch on the O&D:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 80):
Samsung. Samsung. Samsung.

Of anywhere in Asia that AA could have picked for strong O&D traffic from the DFW hub, it would be ICN if you understand the level of S. Korean business ties there are to TX. That said, I expect AA's service to be rather easy to score SWU upgrades on, at least initially. I bet it was killing AA to only be able to carry premium traffic from AUS to ICN as far as DFW.

Just this past August, Samsung announced a further $4B investment in the Austin area.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 81):
True that. Samsung Telecommunications America is headquatered in Dallas and Samsung has a huge semiconductor opperation in Austin.

I also dont know if it has been mentioned this thread, but DFW-ICN is the largest Texas-Asia O&D market. Maybe not large enough to fill two planes on O&D, but large enough where connections on both ends could help.

Yes.

The O&D in this market is substantial. Beyond Samsung, there are other commercial ties in other areas including telecom, aerospace/defense, energy, etc.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2012-10-24 15:21:28 and read 14700 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 82):
I suspect they do DFW-NRT today and connect to ICN on JL. Korea is a market already under the AA-JL ATI JV.

True, which is why I feel we'll see one fewer DFW-NRT flights over time if DFW-ICN takes hold, and as the US-Japan O&D market continues to shrink, as the numbers you've posted recently attest to.

Staying on one airline all the way through AUS-ICN (or from other U.S. points) is far more attractive than a double-connect, including one to another carrier at a foreign airport. It'll be interesting to see how much traffic the ICN flight cannibalizes off DFW-NRT, or KE's through flight to GRU via LAX.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-24 15:24:05 and read 14687 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 87):
True, which is why I feel we'll see one fewer DFW-NRT flights over time if DFW-ICN takes hold, and as the US-Japan O&D market continues to shrink, as the numbers you've posted recently attest to.

I have hypothisized that DFW-NRT will eventually be one daily 77W. Long term, what I think may be doable:

Daily 77W - DFW-NRT
Daily 777 - DFW-ICN
Daily 787 - DFW-HKG

3-5x weekly DFW-ICN on KE with 777.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-10-24 15:25:12 and read 14782 times.

Dallas-Seoul is one of the largest Southeast U.S.-Asia markets. Goes approximately something like this:

1) Atlanta-Seoul
2) Orlando-Tokyo
3) Dallas-Seoul
4) Dallas-Tokyo
5) Houston-Tokyo
6) Atlanta-Tokyo
7) Miami-Manila
8) Atlanta-Shanghai
9) Atlanta-Beijing
10) Miami-Hong Kong

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-10-24 15:40:48 and read 14531 times.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 55):
Now LAN has to fly to Chicago-O'Hare and then LIM will be connected to most (if not all) of AA's cornerstone hubs.  

The resumption of the DFW-LIM service is great news for the LIM hub. With the addition of AA's DFW-LIM service; oneworld will offer non-stop flights from LIM to five cities in the U.S.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 63):
Also, if i'm not mistaken, LAN Perú currently holds the route authority for LIM-ORD flights.

That is correct. LAN Perú also holds the route authority for LIM-IAD, hint, hint...However, LAN Perú's current priority is to reinforce frequencies from LIM to JFK, LAX and MIA. Remember that LAN Perú recently increased frequency on the LIM-LAX route and will soon increase frequency on the LIM-MIA route to 17x weekly! Plus, LAN Perú will launch LIM-JFK early next month; which will operate alongside LAN's daily SCL-LIM-JFK service.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2012-10-24 15:48:20 and read 14441 times.

Quoting Tdan (Reply 84):
Also, don't forget cargo. ICN and DFW are two of the largest airfreight markets in the world and this will make a tangible difference at the margin.

AA may have to fight it out with OZ's new 747F cargo flights into DFW which started this fall. Contracts may already be in place.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-10-24 16:50:43 and read 14056 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 86):
I don't realistically see an enormous amount of additional organic growth left for AA at LAX. They already fly to most of the major markets they need to. There are a few more surgical domestic adds I think could potentially be plausible at some point (MCI, PHL, SAT, maybe even MSY and/or RDU) and a few more international markets that might work (PEK, KIX), but overall AA already has about the network it needs and can support in and out of LAX.

Kansas City, Colorado Springs, Spokane and Calgary were set to be announced before BK happened, just to give some examples of where to go.

In addition to what you mentioned, there is definitley the possibilities long-term of Nagoya and Sydney, as well as returning to San Savlador and San Juan, and trans-con to Atlanta. And, Alaska or not, there is a huge advantage to having its own metal to Portland, Seattle and Vancouver that AA needs to consider, IMO.

In terms of what AA "needs," it's at a good position in LAX and it does not need to do much more, but plenty of opportunity if it elects to chase it.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: miaami
Posted 2012-10-24 16:59:32 and read 13858 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 89):
Dallas-Seoul is one of the largest Southeast U.S.-Asia markets. Goes approximately something like this:

1) Atlanta-Seoul
2) Orlando-Tokyo
3) Dallas-Seoul
4) Dallas-Tokyo
5) Houston-Tokyo
6) Atlanta-Tokyo
7) Miami-Manila
8) Atlanta-Shanghai
9) Atlanta-Beijing
10) Miami-Hong Kong

Welcome Back MAH4546!!!! - you have been missed.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: miaintl
Posted 2012-10-24 17:05:27 and read 13813 times.

Would a nonstop flight to either HKG or NRT from MIA be viable, or is Asia service out of Miami just out of the question. If AA and its partner airlines launch them they could make it work by have them feed latin america traffic. I found it funny that compared to the other Southeast metro areas that Miami never developed any strong ties and connections to the orient.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mhkansan
Posted 2012-10-24 18:01:38 and read 13382 times.

Quoting Tdan (Reply 84):
US Military predominantly out of GRK/SAT

And MHK, CSG, ROW, LAW, SPS, SGF, and ATL-and onward connections that military travel agencies love to book on AA. And that traffic is high-yielding. Military fares are almost always Y,B,L,N fares. Add to that the VFR traffic from soldiers and their families and this route is going to be very popular with officers. Its also well timed for connections to/from these very heavy military markets where AA has been expanding a lot.

If AA really wanted to capture the military market, KWI would be next!! (I can dream...)

I think AA will find a gem at DUS. Germany is a gigantic market. Absolutely gigantic. Its one of the world's top exporters and top economies. The NRW area of Germany has a HUGE catchment area and has excellent rail links to all points, and its convenient to Denmark, Belgium, and The Netherlands. Add a well timed bank of AB connections and DUS could be successful with business travellers. Remember the route is daily unlike many of AB's routes to the USA. AA really should try and make inroads into Germany and see what works. It lost a whole lot when it lost the codeshare relationship with LH and I think they've finally found a suitable replacement with AB. I think the relationship will be successful.

And if anybody wants to meet me on the inaugural - Gosh, I'm just so excited to see some new Intl expansion ex-ORD. I hope that AA can remake ORD into a profitable connection point to Europe again. While its competitive, it has a lot of ties to Europe and there are still a healthy number of unserved routes.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-10-24 18:09:25 and read 13304 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 95):
I think AA will find a gem at DUS.

Let's hope. Europe is kind of in shambles right now. While it's great that oneworld is starting two new Chicago-Germany routes this spring, I want to be able to say that 2x daily flights isn't ambitious year-round, but can't until there are firmer data points to prove otherwise.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 88):
I have hypothisized that DFW-NRT will eventually be one daily 77W. Long term, what I think may be doable:

Curious to know why you think that's the case. It seems to me that 2x daily DFWNRT flights provide convenient options without running into cannibalization issues or yield dilution. Could you shed some further light on this?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: YYZAMS
Posted 2012-10-24 19:04:47 and read 12849 times.

Am I the only one who thinks the ICN route is odd?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: Fly2yyz
Posted 2012-10-24 19:12:05 and read 12793 times.

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 97):
Am I the only one who thinks the ICN route is odd?

Why do you think its odd? Does it seem like an oddball route to you?

I'm glad that OneWorld is paying attention to ICN

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: PA101
Posted 2012-10-25 03:38:21 and read 11090 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):

Yeah!  
It's great to see AA back in Germany for more than just FRA-DFW. I'd think they can make it work well as long as AB remains their OW codeshare partner, causing LH and Star* some headache in DUS... I would have had expected BER too, IF the new airport had openend on time... With the chaos going on here though, they obviously left it to AB to start out TXL-ORD with less than daily service...

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AAplat4life
Posted 2012-10-25 04:30:05 and read 10923 times.

I'm going to have to put my money on the Star team to prevail on the ORD-DUS route. It has a better product than the AA 767 and more capacity (A343 I believe but one could see an A333). At this stage, relying on AB is a gamble. We have Air France courting AB to join Skyteam. Etihad now owns more than 20% of AB, and one of its competitors, Qatar, is joining oneworld. So there is little reason to think that it would stand in the way of AB leaving oneworld. Some analysts have suggested that AB receives little out of oneworld, because most of oneworld remains focused on Frankfurt and not on the German cities where AB has better market presence. Delta could provide more traffic to AB than AA's one flight from ORD to DUS, and that could bolster the case for AB leaving oneworld. Although at this point it does not appear that AB has decided to leave oneworld, keep in mind that AB is also a struggling airline and has to weigh its options.

Moreover, history has shown that AA cannot compete with Star out of ORD to Germany. There was a time when AA had the most destinations to Europe out of ORD, but no longer as Star has shown it is the better competitor on most EU routes.

This looks like another half-baked decision by AMR management to address its weakened network and trying to placate AB to stay in oneworld. I have nothing against AB, but financially it is not a strong airline right now. Under the circumstances, I would have been more impressed with DFW-DUS. I don't see AA surviving on ORD-DUS.

Which brings me to DFW-ICN. If this was such a high demand route, AA would have started it years ago. To the extent that this is an effort by AA to make some in-roads on a route controlled right now by Korean Air, then let's give management some credit for trying. However, as AA begins to reconfigure its 777 with 10 abreast seating in coach and KE investing in high end aircraft, let the better airline win. Time will tell. If AA prevails, then it also may want to consider ORD-ICN, which is another KE route. (I think Asiana dropped this route.) Frankly though I would have liked to have seen AA start LAX-ICN and bolster its LAX network.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-10-25 04:46:25 and read 10899 times.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
However, as AA begins to reconfigure its 777 with 10 abreast seating in coach and KE investing in high end aircraft, let the better airline win. Time will tell. If AA prevails, then it also may want to consider ORD-ICN, which is another KE route. (I think Asiana dropped this route.) Frankly though I would have liked to have seen AA start LAX-ICN and bolster its LAX network.

AA going tfrom 9 to 10 seats per row on their 777 is just adjusting to the market. They are killing First Class on their 777-200ER fleet and will have an awesome Cathay Pacific J class which looks like a winner.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-25 05:13:36 and read 10841 times.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
I'm going to have to put my money on the Star team to prevail on the ORD-DUS route. It has a better product than the AA 767 and more capacity (A343 I believe but one could see an A333).

In terms of hard and soft product, LH will win hands down. Ironically, though, LH - the German carrier - will actually probably not have quite as big an advantage at the German end of the route as at the U.S. end. LH will obviously benefit from UA's huge ORD hub, but I actually believe - could be wrong though - that AB has a larger operation at DUS than LH (not sure if that includes LH's partners, though).

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
At this stage, relying on AB is a gamble. We have Air France courting AB to join Skyteam. Etihad now owns more than 20% of AB, and one of its competitors, Qatar, is joining oneworld. So there is little reason to think that it would stand in the way of AB leaving oneworld.

It's not that much of a gamble, because very little is being "gambled." If AB leaves oneworld, AA stops the flight. It's that simple. It's not like AA is sinking huge investment into the DUS market.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
This looks like another half-baked decision by AMR management to address its weakened network

Does it? I'm not so sure.

To be clear: I actually do share your skepticism about AA's long-term prospects on ORD-DUS. But perhaps AA would simply like to bolster its presence in Germany, the world's fourth largest economy and the best-performing country in Europe right now, and feel that a surgical addition into the hub of a partner in Germany makes sense. That makes sense to me. This isn't a large investment, and if the flight doesn't work, they can kill it next September at little cost or penalty.

On the "weakened network," I actually think yesterday's announcements constitute AA making some smart, strategic moves to bolster their global network and make it competitive with DL and UA. (In other words: what they should have done five years ago.) In Latin America, AA's lead is enormous and will continue to be. Across the Pacific, AA is now not far off from where it needs to be - just a few more additions and I think AA is competitively set. In Europe, AA is still far behind DL and UA, but of course DL and UA (for obvious reasons) have been cutting Europe left and right and retreating, in many cases, to the relative safety of their partners hubs. (In other words: AA's strategy all along.) AA needs to add a few more markets in Europe, and to some extent bolster their domestic network to orient it towards European connections, and then there, too, I think AA will be generally getting closer to where it needs to be. Don't get me wrong AA still has work to do on their network - no question. But I think yesterday's announcement gets them closer to where they need to be, and wasn't a "half-baked decision" that gets them further away.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
and trying to placate AB to stay in oneworld.

I highly doubt that any airline - especially AA - would invest in adding a route simply to "placate" another carrier, particularly one with which it does not have any sort of joint business or revenue-sharing agreement.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
Which brings me to DFW-ICN. If this was such a high demand route, AA would have started it years ago.

That is a logical fallacy. Just because something hasn't happened before doesn't disprove that it could happen in the future. Saying that because AA has not in the past found sufficient demand to justify service on a route means that it will not be able to find such demand in the future is false.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
However, as AA begins to reconfigure its 777 with 10 abreast seating in coach and KE investing in high end aircraft, let the better airline win.

It will all depend on how consumers define "better airline." For some that will mean better hard and soft product (AA will soon be nearly competitive in J, not in Y when it comes to hard product, KE will always win on soft product). For some that will mean schedule convenience - AA's daily flight will likely often win there. For some it will be frequent flyer program - AA will benefit on the DFW end, KE on the ICN end. For some it will be connectivity - again, AA will win on the DFW end, KE on the ICN end. You seem to imply that KE is the clear "better airline," but in this market, I think AA should definitely be able to more than hold its own. The two carriers are to a large extent catering to different market segments - and as such I think they should be able to coexist.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
If AA prevails, then it also may want to consider ORD-ICN, which is another KE route.

Doubtful. ORD-ICN is a totally different market with an entirely different competitive dynamic. The reasons why AA should be able to make DFW-ICN work are unique to the DFW-ICN market, and don't translate elsewhere.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
Frankly though I would have liked to have seen AA start LAX-ICN and bolster its LAX network.

With the massive amount of capacity KE has on LAX-ICN, to say nothing of OZ, I doubt any U.S. carrier - AA or otherwise - could profitably make an LAX-ICN flight work.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 101):
AA going tfrom 9 to 10 seats per row on their 777 is just adjusting to the market. They are killing First Class on their 777-200ER fleet and will have an awesome Cathay Pacific J class which looks like a winner.

  

Much has been made of AA's move (eventually) to 10-across Y on the 777s, but I doubt it will have all that much impact since the majority of people are still going to book their travel based on a variety of considerations other than the width of the seat. They might notice it somewhat when they're on the plane, but the vast majority of travelers are still going to prioritize schedule, frequent flyer program, connectivity, and above all price before seat width.

And as for the premium cabin - yeah, the new J AA is going to be rolling out on the 777s is going to be incredible. That new J seat - essentially a modified version of the CX J seat - is nicer than AA's original 777 F seat, and nicer than just about any other J product on the market today. That should be quite competitive.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AAplat4life
Posted 2012-10-25 05:16:14 and read 10811 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 101):

AA going tfrom 9 to 10 seats per row on their 777 is just adjusting to the market. They are killing First Class on their 777-200ER fleet and will have an awesome Cathay Pacific J class which looks like a winner.

The J class may very well prove to be a winner, but I don't think we can conclude yet that the 10 abreast in coach is adjusting to the market. On the specific route that I was referring to, DFW-ICN, I don't believe that the competitor, KE, has gone to 10 abreast in coach. Out of ORD or JFK, I don't believe that UA or DL has gone there as well. Yes, some airlines have gone to 10 abreast in coach, but overall not the ones that AA directly competes with. In fact, I don't even think that other major oneworld carriers have gone there yet as well. They might, but then again a competitor like United or Delta might also uses their configuration as a marketing advantage.

For now, I would say that the new 777 configuration will be to AA's disadvantage in competing on several routes including DFW-ICN. AAdvantage miles don't compensate for everything.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-25 05:29:35 and read 10797 times.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 103):
Out of ORD or JFK, I don't believe that UA or DL has gone there as well. Yes, some airlines have gone to 10 abreast in coach, but overall not the ones that AA directly competes with.

UA is 9-across on their 787s which, I believe, is essentially the same seat-width as a 10-across 777, so if I'm not mistaken, yes, AA's direct competitors are beginning to move in this direction.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 103):
They might, but then again a competitor like United or Delta might also uses their configuration as a marketing advantage.

I think more likely if AA moves to a slightly narrower longhaul Y seat, and the market doesn't push back dramatically, UA and DL will soon match. The cost advantage that will give AA - of being able to cram in more Y seats in the same metal tube - will be more than UA or DL can bear, in my opinion. If AA does successfully go to the new configuration, UA and DL will have no choice but to compete.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 103):
For now, I would say that the new 777 configuration will be to AA's disadvantage in competing on several routes including DFW-ICN. AAdvantage miles don't compensate for everything.

And I would say that is false, in my opinion. I don't think AA's configuration will put AA at much, if any, competitive disadvantage at all. And of course what it will do is substantially reduce the CASM of those aircraft, which will help AA price competitively. And while you say that AAdvantage miles "don't compensate for everything" - which is true - I think there are plenty of AA FFs who would say they compensate for a lot. And besides, in this market, AA is going to be able to bring to bear other competitive advantages besides just AAdvantage. AA's schedule will be daily, and it will offer massive connections on the DFW end, just to name two.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AAplat4life
Posted 2012-10-25 05:38:00 and read 10768 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 102):
To be clear: I actually do share your skepticism about AA's long-term prospects on ORD-DUS. But perhaps AA would simply like to bolster its presence in Germany, the world's fourth largest economy and the best-performing country in Europe right now, and feel that a surgical addition into the hub of a partner in Germany makes sense. That makes sense to me. This isn't a large investment, and if the flight doesn't work, they can kill it next September at little cost or penalty.

Well you are correct, AA should have a better presence in Germany. Right now, it is down to 1 maybe 2 flights a day into FRA? I think 1 flight out of DFW. Although I am encouraged by more ORD flight options, I think the DUS route is not going to succeed. Hence, another half-baked effort by AMR management.

Quoting commavia (Reply 102):
You seem to imply that KE is the clear "better airline," but in this market, I think AA should definitely be able to more than hold its own.

I did not imply that KE is the clear better airline, just probably the better airline. I said let the market decide and, if AA succeeds, then perhaps it can explore its other options such as ORD-ICN. However, I do not think that KE and AA will both prosper on the DFW-ICN route and there will ultimately be one survivor. I think AA has a shot given its huge DFW presence to win, but it is competing against a better airline.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2012-10-25 06:10:35 and read 10700 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 92):
In terms of what AA "needs," it's at a good position in LAX and it does not need to do much more, but plenty of opportunity if it elects to chase it.

How tight is AA's gate space situation at LAX?

We've had past discussions here that AA's growth at LAX is constrained because they are already maxing out their facilities at T4, and it will be a couple of years before AA gets access to gates at an expanded TBIT.

Would it be possible for AA to add more mainline flights at LAX without using remote parking?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: gdg9
Posted 2012-10-25 06:35:40 and read 10602 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 88):
I have hypothisized that DFW-NRT will eventually be one daily 77W

A few years ago at least, DFW-NRT was filling both planes with freight, not sure how it is today. Surely there is also enough freight for DFW-ICN and two DFW-NRT flights?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-25 06:45:43 and read 10597 times.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 105):
I did not imply that KE is the clear better airline
Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 105):
but it is competing against a better airline.

 
Quoting gdg9 (Reply 107):
A few years ago at least, DFW-NRT was filling both planes with freight, not sure how it is today. Surely there is also enough freight for DFW-ICN and two DFW-NRT flights?

I think DFW-NRT may well still be able to support 2x daily flights even with DFW-ICN. A nonstop DFW-ICN will absolutely pull a lot of traffic off the DFW-NRT flights, but as the JBA develops I suspect that will boost volume on DFW-NRT. Look at what has happened on DFW-LHR: the amount of demand that the JBA with BA has generated has led to frequency and capacity beyond anything AA has ever previously been able to support. The growth of DFW-LHR has been phenomenal. DFW-NRT may end up being the same.

I still don't think it's impossible that in a few years we could still be seeing 2x daily on DFW-NRT 1x AA 77W, and 1x JL 77W.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-10-25 06:54:51 and read 10573 times.

I will definitely be a frequent flyer on the new AA DFW-ICN route, even if it means enduring 3-4-3 in Y.

Why? AAdvantage is an amazing FFP. Korean Air SkyPass is a total joke, as are most other SkyTeam FFPs. What would only require 50,000 EQMs on AA would require 500,000 on KE for the same type of perks. AAdvantage off-peak redemption rates are incredibly competitive as well.

My goal for next year is to reach Platinum status, and eventually Executive Platinum after I graduate from university.

I've flown American on numerous occasions and they've always been good to me. What also benefits me is that AA also has a decent network out of my primary airport, YYZ.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-10-25 06:56:52 and read 10578 times.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
If AA prevails, then it also may want to consider ORD-ICN, which is another KE route. (I think Asiana dropped this route.)

Quite the contrary, ICN-ORD is the first route that Asiana is deploying their brand new First suite (actual suite with sliding doors) with industry-leading 32" TV screen.

Quoting commavia (Reply 104):
UA is 9-across on their 787s which, I believe, is essentially the same seat-width as a 10-across 777, so if I'm not mistaken, yes, AA's direct competitors are beginning to move in this direction.

787 with 9-abreast is rumored to be same seat width as 737/747 economy. From my experience on AF 77W, there's no way that 10-abreast 77W is the same as 747 (and by inference, the 787). And my shoulders are already narrower than the average American. Have you actually sat in one ?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-10-25 07:05:34 and read 10558 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 110):
Quite the contrary, ICN-ORD is the first route that Asiana is deploying their brand new First suite (actual suite with sliding doors) with industry-leading 32" TV screen.

Indeed.

AA would never, in my view, be able to make ORD-ICN work. And not just because OZ will always have a superior product. AA's ORD hub is also not sufficiently strong enough to support such a flight, in my opinion, and that market (local ORD-ICN) is also not large enough to support that much additional capacity.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 110):
787 with 9-abreast is rumored to be same seat width as 737/747 economy.

My mistake then.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 110):
Have you actually sat in one ?

Nope - can't say I have, honestly. That's why you'll note that I wasn't commenting on the actual comfort of 10-across 77W Y. I have no doubt it will be less comfortable, and I myself am certainly not looking forward to it. But I still don't think it is going to have all that detrimental an impact on AA's demand, and if it does, AA will have no choice but to quickly reverse course.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-10-25 07:19:31 and read 10461 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 111):
But I still don't think it is going to have all that detrimental an impact on AA's demand, and if it does, AA will have no choice but to quickly reverse course.

That's why it's best to deploy it on routes where no strong competitor exist, out of dominant hubs where the captive audience are loyal regardless. Basing them out of DFW and MIA seems better than JFK/LAX, where consumers have tons of alternatives to pick and choose.

The new F is nice, J is top notch, but on JFK-LHR i'd much prefer taking BA over AA in all 3 classes.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-25 09:05:54 and read 10276 times.

Quoting realsim (Reply 9):
AA2193 | DFW-LIM | 17:30-00:25 | 752 | D
AA2194 | LIM-DFW | 02:00-09:15 | 752 | D
Quoting realsim (Reply 9):
AA27 | DFW-ICN | 10:30-15:00 | 772 | D
AA26 | ICN-DFW | 17:00-16:20 | 772 | D

Looking at this schedule, will you be able to connect between LIM and ICN at DFW? I dont know what the market size is, but I would think they would try to arrange it so connections could be made?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2012-10-25 09:18:25 and read 10258 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 104):
I think more likely if AA moves to a slightly narrower longhaul Y seat, and the market doesn't push back dramatically, UA and DL will soon match.

DL's 777 fleet is a minor percentage of their international lift. My guess is DL won't follow the crowd, as they've invested a lot lately in the passenger experience. Reducing seat width on their 777s would make them an oddball in relation to their 767s, A330s and 747s where they don't have the combination of small seat+small aisle width that a 3-4-3 configuration on the 777 yields.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-10-25 09:30:10 and read 10215 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 113):
Looking at this schedule, will you be able to connect between LIM and ICN at DFW? I dont know what the market size is, but I would think they would try to arrange it so connections could be made?

I would think the connecting market for the DFW-LIM flight is more geared towards SEA, SJC, SNA, PDX, SLC, AUS, etc rather than ICN. Likewise, I would expect that AA is targeting connections to the DFW-ICN flight to me more like MIA, MCO, LFT, MSY, IAH, etc rather than LIM.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AA767400
Posted 2012-10-25 09:33:24 and read 10198 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 43):
ORD - PEK / PVG
LAX - PVG
DFW - ICN

It's nice to see them finally expanding to Asia, but a single TPAC hub probably would serve them better than seemingly p2p services.

Regarding DFW-HKG rumors, it feels like ORD-HEL : hub-to-hub for the sake of it. 8123mi for a mostly connection-oriented route requires EK-level CASM to make it work (i'd dread 3-4-3 on this 17 hour flight)

What will it take - in your opinion, for AA to compete against UA/DL? You seem to downplay any positive from the airline, and nothing seems to work for you. So please, do tell what would work?

AA gutted their labor contracts in order to level the laying field, and be able to better compete. Once they settle the pilot contract, they will be able to expand more.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-10-25 09:33:58 and read 10210 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 113):
Looking at this schedule, will you be able to connect between LIM and ICN at DFW?

Looking in GDS no. It says the minimum legal connection time needed is 1:30.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-10-25 09:42:20 and read 10147 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 117):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 113):
Looking at this schedule, will you be able to connect between LIM and ICN at DFW?

Looking in GDS no. It says the minimum legal connection time needed is 1:30.

Just because it's allowable doesn't mean it's wise. I never schedule less than probably 2:30 in an international connection - more if possible. I've seen people schedule foolishly short connecting times that leave no padding for delays, and then blame the airline when they miss their connection.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: miaami
Posted 2012-10-25 09:50:40 and read 10187 times.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 116):
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 43):
ORD - PEK / PVG
LAX - PVG
DFW - ICN

It's nice to see them finally expanding to Asia, but a single TPAC hub probably would serve them better than seemingly p2p services.

Regarding DFW-HKG rumors, it feels like ORD-HEL : hub-to-hub for the sake of it. 8123mi for a mostly connection-oriented route requires EK-level CASM to make it work (i'd dread 3-4-3 on this 17 hour flight)

What will it take - in your opinion, for AA to compete against UA/DL? You seem to downplay any positive from the airline, and nothing seems to work for you. So please, do tell what would work?

AA gutted their labor contracts in order to level the laying field, and be able to better compete. Once they settle the pilot contract, they will be able to expand more.


They also convienetly omit
ORD - NRT
LAX - NRT
DFW NRT X2
JFK -HND
all of which, through their joint venture with JAL connect to most all of Asia.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-25 09:57:55 and read 10118 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 115):

I would think the connecting market for the DFW-LIM flight is more geared towards SEA, SJC, SNA, PDX, SLC, AUS, etc rather than ICN. Likewise, I would expect that AA is targeting connections to the DFW-ICN flight to me more like MIA, MCO, LFT, MSY, IAH, etc rather than LIM.

No doubt, but I would have thought that they would try to maximize connections from those flights anyway. I dont know how big the ICN-LIM market is, but DFW would have been a great place for connections.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: realsim
Posted 2012-10-25 10:15:30 and read 10067 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 115):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 113):
Looking at this schedule, will you be able to connect between LIM and ICN at DFW? I dont know what the market size is, but I would think they would try to arrange it so connections could be made?

I would think the connecting market for the DFW-LIM flight is more geared towards SEA, SJC, SNA, PDX, SLC, AUS, etc rather than ICN. Likewise, I would expect that AA is targeting connections to the DFW-ICN flight to me more like MIA, MCO, LFT, MSY, IAH, etc rather than LIM.

In the press release they only explicitly mentioned Tokyo as a connection destination from LIM, so I guess it's one of they main targets.

The schedule for this connection will be:

AA2194 | LIM-DFW | 02:00-09:15 | 752 | D
AA0061 | DFW-NRT | 11:40-16:15 | 772 | D

AA0060 | NRT-DFW | 19:10-15:45 | 772 | D
AA2193 | DFW-LIM | 17:30-00:25 | 752 | D

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-10-25 10:22:06 and read 10055 times.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 116):
What will it take - in your opinion, for AA to compete against UA/DL? You seem to downplay any positive from the airline, and nothing seems to work for you. So please, do tell what would work?

Read my posts again before jumping to conclusions. Europe and LatAm is large enough that multi hub strategy could prevail. For AA, Asia is small enough of a market that not concentrating non-NRT services onto a single hub diminishes the value proposition for all of them.

Since DL likes SEA and UA has SFO locked down how about AA take a stab at LAX ? since all of AA's current non-NRT routes have no feed on the other side, it's even more important to concentrate the fire power on this side of the ocean.

If I'm from PEK i could only go to ORD
If i'm from LAX i could only go to PVG
If i'm from ICN i could only go to DFW

3 out of 4 routes and I could list 6 airports.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: dcajet
Posted 2012-10-25 10:57:30 and read 9947 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 89):
7) Miami-Manila

   

Miami - Manila? Where did you pull that one from?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AA767400
Posted 2012-10-25 11:02:36 and read 9947 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 122):
Read my posts again before jumping to conclusions. Europe and LatAm is large enough that multi hub strategy could prevail. For AA, Asia is small enough of a market that not concentrating non-NRT services onto a single hub diminishes the value proposition for all of them.

I have, in fact many times. No conclusions here. Since UA has SFO, and DL somewhat has SEA, what does AA need to do to compete?

Add LAX- PEK/NGO/HKG/ICN/TPE/MNL/CAN/KIX/SYD/AKL? Nix 10 across on the 77W? Set up NRT hub? Add channel 9?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2012-10-25 11:08:59 and read 9924 times.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 123):
Miami - Manila? Where did you pull that one from?

That one made me blink too. I can only guess at it's from Filipino staffing in the hospitality industry plus shipping/cruise lines based in Miami/S. Florida. I'd be interested to see if my guess was right.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-10-25 11:19:00 and read 9967 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 101):
AA going tfrom 9 to 10 seats per row on their 777 is just adjusting to the market. They are killing First Class on their 777-200ER fleet and will have an awesome Cathay Pacific J class which looks like a winner.

The 773 will have Cathay J.

The 772 will have a brand new J product that AA itself is helping develop.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2012-10-25 11:48:07 and read 9959 times.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 58):
No one knows how DFW-SYD is doing

Actually, QF itself has said they are quite pleased with the results thus far.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
We have Air France courting AB to join Skyteam

Even if AB switched to SkyTeam, couldn't they still codeshare with AA? It seems many airlines in each alliance are going outside the alliance to codeshare anyway.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-10-25 11:52:49 and read 9954 times.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 123):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 89):
7) Miami-Manila



Miami - Manila? Where did you pull that one from?

It's a large local market. Cruise ship crews need to get to their ships.

[Edited 2012-10-25 11:53:15]

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-10-25 11:55:45 and read 9896 times.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 124):
Add LAX- PEK/NGO/HKG/ICN/TPE/MNL/CAN/KIX/SYD/AKL? Nix 10 across on the 77W? Set up NRT hub? Add channel 9?

No, they should totally stay the course. Hand off everyone at NRT and LHR then sit back and count the joint venture money.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: dcajet
Posted 2012-10-25 12:21:53 and read 9818 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 128):

It's a large local market. Cruise ship crews need to get to their ships

Can you quote the source from where you got that ranking please? Miami - Manila and to a lesser extent Miami - Hong Kong have very little grounding in reality to be on such ranking. There are very few or non existing business or leisure economic ties between the Philippines, HK SAR and the Miami/Ft Lauderdale metro area.

Even if you get a steady stream of cruise ship crews, how many are there per day? That does not make a large local market. And not all of them are from the Philippines!

And regarding hotels workers, in the Miami area with its ample supply of immigrants from the Caribbean and LatAm there is no need for Filipino workers to cover.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: aaway
Posted 2012-10-25 22:47:26 and read 9257 times.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 106):
How tight is AA's gate space situation at LAX?

We've had past discussions here that AA's growth at LAX is constrained because they are already maxing out their facilities at T4, and it will be a couple of years before AA gets access to gates at an expanded TBIT.

Would it be possible for AA to add more mainline flights at LAX without using remote parking?

The short answer is yes, but any additional mainline flights would likely be shorthaul operations during off peak hours.

To expound a bit, the current schedule, fleet mix, and gate geometry affects AA's ability to add longhaul flying during peak hours. As an example, gates 41 and 43 were purposely designed to accommodate up to Group V aircraft. The trade off restricts (closes) gate 45 when 43 is occupied by said design group a/c. The current 777 rotations close 45 for several hours each day.

Regarding TBIT - Not only will all AA international flights gate there, I believe AA will gate a high-frequency domestic destination at TBIT.

Additionally, don't be surprised if AA decides to partially redevelop the south end of T4 (the gates 46 through 48 area) into a complex of 5 to 6 gates in order to accommodate larger gauge Eagle a/c. Think in terms of that portion of the fleet containing a first class section.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-10-25 23:37:31 and read 9250 times.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 130):
Can you quote the source from where you got that ranking please? Miami - Manila and to a lesser extent Miami - Hong Kong have very little grounding in reality to be on such ranking. There are very few or non existing business or leisure economic ties between the Philippines, HK SAR and the Miami/Ft Lauderdale metro area.

It's MIDT data, not publicly quoteable. Those are approximately the largest Southeast U.S.-Asia markets. MIAMNL sees significant cruise ship employee traffic, end of story. It's a big market, yield sucks. How many people per day? It's around 50-55.

There are significant economic ties between Miami and Hong Kong, most prominently with Swire having its key base of operations in this hemisphere out of Miami. Not only is MIAHKG a good size local market, the average fares are extremely high. They are two of the world's largest trade hubs, which drives a lot of demand in a market that is largely premium. Cathay officials have been at MIA in the past few months discussing service, and publicly mentioned plans to inaugurate passenger service to Miami in the future at the media event for the inaugural Cathay cargo 747-8 flight.

[Edited 2012-10-25 23:40:17]

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: texan
Posted 2012-10-26 13:14:20 and read 8782 times.

But I thought eliminating the Wright Amendment made DFW-LIM unprofitable  

Texan

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: WROORD
Posted 2012-10-26 18:41:05 and read 8501 times.

I hope ORD-DUS works for AA I flew several times with LH on this route and the plane was full. Many pax prefer to transfer in DUS vs. FRA. However LH fie to many European destinations from DUS and AB mostly to leisure places in Spain, Italy, Greece and Turkey with minimal European coverage. Not sure f that alone can make this route a success, unless AB will add new destinations out of DUS.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: miaintl
Posted 2012-10-26 22:13:44 and read 8418 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 132):

What aircraft is able to fly MIA-HKG nonstop? Plus just because the fares are high does not mean that has anything to do with premium demand.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: DTWLAX
Posted 2012-10-27 10:18:49 and read 8084 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 41):
Will this make ICN the Asian airport served by the most amount of US-based (passenger) airlines? There will be AA, UA, DL and HA.

I think NRT is served by all four. Or does HA not fly to NRT?

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 74):
AI is an airline with a so-so reputation and can't even close the deal to enter Star Alliance. Don't really understand why AA has trouble competing with that (but would do fine against Korean Air) ?

Not being able to close the deal with Star does not have any impact on AI competing with AA. If AI offers rock bottom fares on the route irrespective of alliance, it is going to hurt AA.
Regarding AI's so-so reputation, what makes you think the AA reputation is better especially for those outside USA?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-10-27 14:30:01 and read 7929 times.

In 2011, these were the largest South-Asia O&D markets:

1) Atlanta-Seoul
2) Dallas-Seoul
3) Houston-Saigon
4) Miami-Manila
5) Orlando-Tokyo
6) Houston-Manila
7) Dallas-Tokyo
8) Houston-Singapore
9) Dallas-Saigon
10) Houston-Tokyo

Of interesting note, there is a large gap between ATLICN and DFWICN and there is also a large gap between DFWICN and IAHSGN. IAHSGN, MIAMNL, and MCONRT are all almost identical in size. DFWNRT, IANSIN, DFWSGN, and IAHNRT are also very close in size.

Looking at the data, traffic to Japan is way down in 2011. No doubt due to the tsunami.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2012-10-27 15:09:06 and read 7804 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 137):
In 2011, these were the largest South-Asia O&D markets:

Do you have the point of sale ie:US or South Asia for the markets listed?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-10-27 15:22:09 and read 7782 times.

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 136):
I think NRT is served by all four. Or does HA not fly to NRT?

HA flies to HND instead of NRT.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 137):
In 2011, these were the largest South-Asia O&D markets:

Thanks for the info! Not a surprise that ATL will get the KE A380.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: AAIL86
Posted 2012-10-27 15:45:01 and read 7739 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 137):
3) Houston-Saigon
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 137):
9) Dallas-Saigon

Shouldn't that be Ho Chi Minh City?  

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-10-27 18:15:05 and read 7584 times.

http://www.traveldailynews.asia/news...744/american-airlines-will-land-in

The article above states that KE plans to increase DFW service to daily starting next spring...I think not!

I'd expect to see either a 3x weekly 772 service or a complete withdrawal from the Metroplex.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-10-28 08:22:04 and read 7175 times.

Quoting texan (Reply 133):
But I thought eliminating the Wright Amendment made DFW-LIM unprofitable

No, it was adding Missouri to the Wright Amendment states. Just think of all of that connecting traffic from Kansas City and St. Louis to Lima!

That was 6 years ago for DFW . . . fast forward 6 years from today and we'll see what UA is doing at IAH 6 years after its nonsensical threats.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-10-28 11:11:50 and read 7020 times.

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 140):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 137):
3) Houston-Saigon
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 137):
9) Dallas-Saigon

Shouldn't that be Ho Chi Minh City?

This is just like the debate on the recent thread on NH NRT-RGN, about whether it's Myanmar or Burma or Rangon or Yangoon. For political reasons, some people (myself included) choose to call places like Saigon and Burma by their per-dictatorship or per-communism names. Of course if I were talking to officials then I'd say Ho Chi Min City or Myanmar.

AA code-shares with JL on the NRT-SGN and NRT-HAN flights but if DFW/IAH-SGN have so much traffic then perhaps AA should consider sending one of their 777s DFW-NRT-SGN? AA hasn't yet tried beyond NRT flights on their own metal they way NW/DL and UA have. Maybe it's time?

Quoting neveragain (Reply 142):
Quoting texan (Reply 133):
But I thought eliminating the Wright Amendment made DFW-LIM unprofitable

No, it was adding Missouri to the Wright Amendment states. Just think of all of that connecting traffic from Kansas City and St. Louis to Lima!

I think that was partially meant as a joke. When AA discontinued DFW-LIM and a few other routes they made it sound like it was because of the Wright Amendment, which people commented at the time was ludicrous. I suspect the poster was poking fun at that. I did DFW-LIM in 2002: completely full going down but only about 50% load factor on the flight back to DFW.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-10-28 12:42:17 and read 6940 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 143):
I think that was partially meant as a joke.

Of course it was entirely meant as a joke. However, I think DFW-LIM was stopped after Missouri was added as a state, but before the settlement to fully repeal the WA restrictions was reached.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: HeeseokKoo
Posted 2012-11-02 03:48:44 and read 6339 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 141):

http://www.traveldailynews.asia/news...744/american-airlines-will-land-in

The article above states that KE plans to increase DFW service to daily starting next spring...I think not!

I'd expect to see either a 3x weekly 772 service or a complete withdrawal from the Metroplex.

For now, it seems KE is planning daily service from May 6th to Aug 31st. Still angled lie-flat business class equipment is deployed, but KE may upgrade to the fully flat one to beat AA's J product. We'll see how this competition goes.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: miaami
Posted 2012-11-04 05:51:14 and read 5795 times.

DFW-ICN, DFW-LIM, ORD-DUS, JFK-DUB, were all loaded into Reservations last night and are now avail for purchase. Great to see AA expanding and specially into Asia.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-05 14:45:09 and read 5279 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 117):
Looking in GDS no. It says the minimum legal connection time needed is 1:30.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 118):
Just because it's allowable doesn't mean it's wise. I never schedule less than probably 2:30 in an international connection - more if possible. I've seen people schedule foolishly short connecting times that leave no padding for delays, and then blame the airline when they miss their connection.

Just FYI, ICN-LIM through DFW is being sold as a legal connection with the current schedule. It is available that way on AA.com and GDS. The schedule is below and can be purchased normally:

AA2194 15MAY LIMDFW 200A 915A
AA 27 15MAY DFWICN 1030A 300P
AA 26 22MAY ICNDFW 500P 420P
AA2193 22MAY DFWLIM 530P 1225A

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-05 20:00:50 and read 5222 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 147):
It is available that way on AA.com and GDS. The schedule is below and can be purchased normally:

Oof. Those are pretty tight connection times though.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-05 21:12:52 and read 5214 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 147):
ust FYI, ICN-LIM through DFW is being sold as a legal connection with the current schedule.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 117):
Looking in GDS no. It says the minimum legal connection time needed is 1:30.

So this was updated?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-06 07:24:09 and read 5208 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 149):

So this was updated?

Nope, the connection times have always been the same.

However, what we failed to bring up is that minimum connect times vary even within the same airport. In this case, the inbound flights from ICN/LIM will arrive at Terminal D and the connections to ICN/LIM will also depart Terminal D. Since there is no terminal change, they can get away with a shorter connection.

I feel quite sure that AA positioned these two flights for the absolute minimum time to connect, while still making sure they could sell ICN-DFW-LIM legally.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-06 08:19:24 and read 5206 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 150):
However, what we failed to bring up is that minimum connect times vary even within the same airport. In this case, the inbound flights from ICN/LIM will arrive at Terminal D and the connections to ICN/LIM will also depart Terminal D. Since there is no terminal change, they can get away with a shorter connection.

This may be cumbersome, but let's envision two hypothetical scenarios: an arrival from LIM and arrival from ICN.

Which other international flights are processing before 9:15 AM and, oh, let's say 3 PM-4:30 PM?

The arrival time from ICN is more worrisome I'd say. A missed connection onward to LIM would mean the PAX has to be re-booked via MIA, or next day. That would not be fun.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-06 08:47:17 and read 5289 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 151):
This may be cumbersome, but let's envision two hypothetical scenarios: an arrival from LIM and arrival from ICN.

Which other international flights are processing before 9:15 AM and, oh, let's say 3 PM-4:30 PM?

The arrival time from ICN is more worrisome I'd say. A missed connection onward to LIM would mean the PAX has to be re-booked via MIA, or next day. That would not be fun.

Im not too worried about a LIM-DFW-ICN routing. A 915 arrival isnt too busy at DFW customs. The deep South America flights all arrive much earlier and the Central American flights arrive in the 1pm time frame. That connection should not be a problem.

However, a ICN-DFW-LIM routing (based on the scheduling) is much more concerning. The ICN-DFW flight arrives at 420 which will be not much later than all the European flights as well as one of the flights from NRT. If a delay happens with some of the flights from Europe, then customs would easily take more than one hour.

Ill be curious to see how it works. DFW is now becoming the best and quickest transit point between Seoul and Lima so a lot of people will book that routing.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-06 09:32:42 and read 5271 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 152):
Ill be curious to see how it works. DFW is now becoming the best and quickest transit point between Seoul and Lima so a lot of people will book that routing.

Good to know.

What are the other 1-stop options, you have ATL, and I suppose you have SFO, LAX, IAD and JFK but on unaligned carriers.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-06 09:43:00 and read 5280 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 153):
What are the other 1-stop options, you have ATL, and I suppose you have SFO, LAX, IAD and JFK but on unaligned carriers.

On that routing, these are the fastest travel times in order:

AA 26 ICNDFW 500P 420P
AA2193 DFWLIM 530P 1225A

KE 17 ICNLAX 315P 1025A
LA 601 LAXLIM1230P 1105P

KE 85 ICNJFK 730P 840P
LA 531 JFKLIM1155P 650A

KE 35 ICNATL1030A 1100A
DL 151 ATLLIM 530P 1115P

As you can see, the AA option provides the fastest and single alliance/single carrier option. The option through ATL would be ok but the layover is very long.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2012-11-06 09:46:52 and read 5281 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 152):
Ill be curious to see how it works. DFW is now becoming the best and quickest transit point between Seoul and Lima so a lot of people will book that routing.

Indeed. AA's move comes as no suprise given that Korean Air is supposedly launching flights between Seoul and Lima from April 2013.


.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 153):
What are the other 1-stop options, you have ATL, and I suppose you have SFO, LAX, IAD and JFK but on unaligned carriers.

In North America you have LAX, SFO, JFK, ATL, but not IAD. In Europe you have AMS and CDG.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-06 09:56:14 and read 5290 times.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 155):
AA's move comes as no suprise given that Korean Air is supposedly launching flights between Seoul and Lima from April 2013.

Well, AA's target for both of these isnt the ICN-LIM market, its more of an icing on the cake. The DFW-ICN flight is aimed at O&D and connections from AUS, IAH, and smaller markets in the Midwest and South. Texas-ICN could fill a 777 based on O&D with over half of that being DFW-ICN traffic.

DFW-LIM is aimed at traffic from the West Coast, Midwest, Texas, and NRT. DFW-LIM is nowhere near as large as DFW-ICN, so this flight will be more dependent on connections. However, given the close ties between AA and LA, it shouldnt be hard to make work.

But I dont see that KE has loaded any flights to LIM, when will they be available?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2012-11-06 10:10:39 and read 5282 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 156):
But I dont see that KE has loaded any flights to LIM, when will they be available?

The whole schedule will be announced next month according to this press article (in Spanish):

http://www.tnews.com.pe/noticias/kor...l-entre-marzo-y-junio-del-2013.htm

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-06 11:22:45 and read 5275 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 154):
KE 17 ICNLAX 315P 1025A

LAN code-shares on this flight operated by KE and markets it as LA 5861.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 154):
LA 601 LAXLIM1230P 1105P

KE code-shares on this flight operated by LAN and markets it as KE 7693.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-06 12:54:39 and read 5260 times.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 155):
In North America you have LAX, SFO, JFK, ATL, but not IAD. In Europe you have AMS and CDG.

Ahh, yes. I forgot that IAD never materialized for LA?

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 155):
Indeed. AA's move comes as no suprise given that Korean Air is supposedly launching flights between Seoul and Lima from April 2013.

Is there a huge local market between Seoul and Lima to make this work? I do know there is a large Japanese community in Peru.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-06 12:56:28 and read 5272 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 159):

Is there a huge local market between Seoul and Lima to make this work? I do know there is a large Japanese community in Peru.

NRT-LIM is much larger than ICN-LIM. It will be interesting to see if that flies. However, KE does fly NRT-LAX so passengers could use NRT-LAX-LIM all on KE planes.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: ADent
Posted 2012-11-06 13:46:34 and read 5266 times.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 134):
I hope ORD-DUS works for AA I flew several times with LH on this route and the plane was full. Many pax prefer to transfer in DUS vs. FRA. However LH fie to many European destinations from DUS and AB mostly to leisure places in Spain, Italy, Greece and Turkey with minimal European coverage.

LH announced it was cutting all flying (intra-Europe) that doesn't include FRA or MUC. So you will now be connecting to Germanwings in DUS.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-06 13:47:02 and read 5268 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 159):
Ahh, yes. I forgot that IAD never materialized for LA?

LA recently transferred two B-767-316ERs over to LAN Perú in order to launch the LIM-JFK route and to increase frequencies on the LIM-LAX and LIM-MIA routes. The LIM-JFK route now operates 11x weekly and the LIM-LAX route now operates 13x weekly. This week, LAN Perú will increase frequency on the LIM-MIA route to 17x weekly. The SCL-LIM-LAX route will soon operate daily with the B-787; thus freeing up two B-767-316ERs for further expansion, (plus LAN will receive 4 more new B-767-316ERs later this year).

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 159):

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 155):
Indeed. AA's move comes as no suprise given that Korean Air is supposedly launching flights between Seoul and Lima from April 2013.

Is there a huge local market between Seoul and Lima to make this work? I do know there is a large Japanese community in Peru.

KE is more interested in cargo traffic between Asia and Perú; however KE could offer connections between LIM and NRT via LAX, (similar to the ICN-LAX-GRU service).

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-06 14:13:14 and read 5255 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 162):
LA recently transferred two B-767-316ERs over to LAN Perú in order to launch the LIM-JFK route and to increase frequencies on the LIM-LAX and LIM-MIA routes. The LIM-JFK route now operates 11x weekly and the LIM-LAX route now operates 13x weekly. This week, LAN Perú will increase frequency on the LIM-MIA route to 17x weekly. The SCL-LIM-LAX route will soon operate daily with the B-787; thus freeing up two B-767-316ERs for further expansion, (plus LAN will receive 4 more new B-767-316ERs later this year).

Thank you for this very detailed information.

I did some research to answer my original question and found out that LAN received approval to launch IAD but I still cannot see if it actually materialized.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-06 14:28:32 and read 5259 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 163):
I did some research to answer my original question and found out that LAN received approval to launch IAD but I still cannot see if it actually materialized.

Perú has Open Skies with the U.S., thus LAN Perú can launch new routes and increase frequencies on existing routes between LIM and the U.S. anytime. A very important component to a future route between LIM and IAD is connecting traffic to/from Bolivia, and LAN just added a second daily flight between LIM and LPB/VVI...

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-06 14:34:30 and read 5251 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 164):
Perú has Open Skies with the U.S., thus LAN Perú can launch new routes and increase frequencies on existing routes between LIM and the U.S. anytime. A very important component to a future route between LIM and IAD is connecting traffic to/from Bolivia, and LAN just added a second daily flight between LIM and LPB/VVI...

Again, the supporting details are appreciated, but you're not answering my question. Did the route ever materialize and if not, why didn't it ever go live?

Anybody else have information for me?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-06 14:38:58 and read 5258 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 165):
Did the route ever materialize and if not, why didn't it ever go live?

Nope. LAN Perú did not launch the route back in 2009 due to the economic crisis in the U.S.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-06 15:02:00 and read 5251 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 166):
Nope. LAN Perú did not launch the route back in 2009 due to the economic crisis in the U.S.

Thank you. That's what I was looking for all along.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-07 12:03:25 and read 5249 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 141):

http://www.traveldailynews.asia/news...744/american-airlines-will-land-in

The article above states that KE plans to increase DFW service to daily starting next spring...I think not!

I'd expect to see either a 3x weekly 772 service or a complete withdrawal from the Metroplex.
Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 145):
For now, it seems KE is planning daily service from May 6th to Aug 31st. Still angled lie-flat business class equipment is deployed, but KE may upgrade to the fully flat one to beat AA's J product. We'll see how this competition goes.

Officially added into GDS inventory today. Service now operates on Mondays and Fridays as well.

KE031 ICN1100 – 0930DFW 772 D
KE032 DFW1210 – 1630+1ICN 772 D

This is really great for DFW.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-11-07 14:48:54 and read 5230 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 168):
Officially added into GDS inventory today. Service now operates on Mondays and Fridays as well.

KE031 ICN1100 – 0930DFW 772 D
KE032 DFW1210 – 1630+1ICN 772 D

This is really great for DFW.

I have a rather hard time believing that this capacity increase will be sustainable. Perhaps it's just a seasonal increase?

If the market can't support two airlines, I sincerely hope that AA emerges as the victorious one. ICN definitely needs more OneWorld presence and competition can only be good.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-07 15:48:07 and read 5241 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 169):
I have a rather hard time believing that this capacity increase will be sustainable. Perhaps it's just a seasonal increase?

Time will tell. The DFW marketplace has definitely evolved a LOT over the past 5 years. We've seen increased presence from both foreign flag and domestic US carriers (aka Non-AA) with pretty high success in terms of long-term traction. This is attributable largely to Dallas being pretty recession-proof as well as the growing ethnic community in North Texas.

IMO, it's a positive sign that KE is choosing to boost capacity/frequency in response to AA's market entry, showing their willingness to stay committed to DFW and compete. I would love nothing more than for both carriers to coexist.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 169):
If the market can't support two airlines, I sincerely hope that AA emerges as the victorious one. ICN definitely needs more OneWorld presence and competition can only be good.

Well, the reverse scenario can be said for DFW: competition is a good thing, and the carrier needs more SkyTeam presence.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: HOONS90
Posted 2012-11-07 16:47:36 and read 5257 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 170):
Well, the reverse scenario can be said for DFW: competition is a good thing, and the carrier needs more SkyTeam presence.

Good point. If KE pulls out of DFW, there will be no Far Eastern carriers serving DFW.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 170):
Well, the reverse scenario can be said for DFW: competition is a good thing, and the carrier needs more SkyTeam presence.

I'm sure that AA's incredibly strong hub at DFW and vastly superior frequent flyer program will help.

On the other hand, KE has a very extensive network out of ICN that connects to Southeast Asia and China. Perhaps KE will carry the bulk of the lower-yielding VFR traffic. Given KE's lower costs, that might actually be sustainable.

KE's frequent flyer program is rather dismal, and DL Skymiles can only be earned with certain fare codes. I think that's a major advantage that AA has, especially with higher yielding corporate traffic.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-08 00:12:56 and read 5225 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 150):
Nope, the connection times have always been the same.

However, what we failed to bring up is that minimum connect times vary even within the same airport.

Aha, there is the answer!!

It's a very logical connection that should be sold. And, if a lot of passengers are flying this route, and most end up missing their connections, the schedule will change.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 170):
with pretty high success in terms of long-term traction.

I think if you put it on a timeline, I think you wouldn't use the words "long-term."

What I think you're trying to say is that KL, QF, and EK have pitched up, and KL has stuck around (which is impressive, actually, after going seasonal).

But all of this has happened relatively recently.

KL--2008?

QF--2010?

EK--2011?

(My years are guesses here.)

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 148):
Oof.

Proper Spanish spelling (if that's what you're going for) is "Uf," no?

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-08 10:02:16 and read 5202 times.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 171):
KE's frequent flyer program is rather dismal, and DL Skymiles can only be earned with certain fare codes. I think that's a major advantage that AA has, especially with higher yielding corporate traffic.

Indeed. DL and KE hopefully will establish stronger links to continue to attract higher-yielding traffic.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 172):
I think if you put it on a timeline, I think you wouldn't use the words "long-term."

In the context of this industry, yes, duration is somewhat relevant, but once you factor in additional indicative parameters/measurements other than exact time frames, you can actually have a pretty compelling story attesting to the "success" of the route over a shortened period of time.

A lot of it boils down to the volatility of the airline industry. Many of the carriers that have expanded into DFW over this period (2008 - present) have undergone massive restructuring resulting in network overhauls, and DFW has stayed largely unaffected. That says a lot.

A perfect example of this is Qantas: although only 18 months has elapsed ever since launching DFW in May 2011, Qantas has done an about-face in its approach to managing its long-haul operations in an effort to stop the bleeding. One might argue that DFW, on paper, would be the easiest and most logical target for a cut: it's one of QF's newest routes, it's by far QF's longest route, it's flown on a high-CASM 747-400ER, business confidence in global travel, as well as freight, is still hovering at an all-time low, and there isn't a huge O&D market between Dallas and Australia.

Despite all of these conditions going against it, QF is now flying daily to DFW, up from an initial experiment of 3-4x weekly flights. That says a lot.

The commitments by Air Canada, Lufthansa, IAG Group and Korean Air also fit into this category, along with the growth of NK.

Hopefully, the future will also hold promising stories for VX, B6, AM and EK (although the latter rarely, if ever, retreats from a market).

Quoting neveragain (Reply 172):
What I think you're trying to say is that KL, QF, and EK have pitched up, and KL has stuck around (which is impressive, actually, after going seasonal).

AF-KL has probably been the most dramatic, altering the DFW spoke from year-round to seasonal. Nevertheless, it's still impressive that they've stuck to the market given the carrier's very weak position and the Eurozone crisis.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 172):
Proper Spanish spelling (if that's what you're going for) is "Uf," no?

I have no idea.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-08 10:08:50 and read 5213 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 172):
It's a very logical connection that should be sold. And, if a lot of passengers are flying this route, and most end up missing their connections, the schedule will change.

Yes, or AA will figure out a way for the transfer passengers to get priority immigration handling or AA will hold the outbound flights. There are a lot of ways to skin that cat if the connecting traffic is important.

Does DFW have ITI? If so, that'll help the connection time.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-09 05:47:26 and read 5181 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 173):
A lot of it boils down to the volatility of the airline industry. Many of the carriers that have expanded into DFW over this period (2008 - present) have undergone massive restructuring resulting in network overhauls, and DFW has stayed largely unaffected. That says a lot.

I would agree. DFW's generous air service incentive program helps a great deal as well (but probably doesn't make or break the route), especially for new international service. Keeping KL for so long in this environment is the biggest accomplishment. I'm not saying that QF or EK or going anywhere, but I'd say the service is too new to make a call one way or the other.

Topic: RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-09 06:31:32 and read 5187 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 175):
Keeping KL for so long in this environment is the biggest accomplishment. I'm not saying that QF or EK or going anywhere, but I'd say the service is too new to make a call one way or the other.

Yeah, KL is going to be the challenge.

I will go ahead and say that EK wont be going anywhere. That route has made a very good start.

QF wont go anywhere either unless QF and AA dissolve their partnership. If they dont, QF will be at DFW for a very long time.


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