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Topic: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: avi8
Posted 2012-11-08 15:46:38 and read 972 times.

I apologize if thishas been discussed before, but I was wondering that, given that SWA has more than 100 of the 300's, why are they not getting WiFi? I know they have plans to eliminate them from the fleet, but replacing the entire sub-fleet will take time; so why not install wifi on newest 300's?


BTW: I would like to congratulate all those who work on SWA, it has become by far my favorite airline. Flew them for the first time today! Service was awesome, the plane was clean and I really liked the new interiors. I don't know why people complain about them. I am definitely flying them whenever I can.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: RavenTech
Posted 2012-11-08 15:53:42 and read 974 times.

They will probably be retired before any kind of ROI will be seen, same thing for only retrofitting only 90 300s aircrafts with winglets and none of the 500s, they will be gone before SWA will get there investment back.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: Turkish350XWB
Posted 2012-11-08 15:57:41 and read 976 times.

When those aircraft were build, electricity was not invented yet. No electricity on board --> no WiFi

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: mffoda
Posted 2012-11-08 15:57:57 and read 976 times.

Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):
why are they not getting WiFi?

Because they are analog not digital...    

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: 737tdi
Posted 2012-11-08 16:16:02 and read 982 times.

No certification for the Radome. I wish I could find the info. that we were given, but there were some problems with buffeting/installation on the Classic. Plus as said above, the recoup of costs of installation/certification for aircraft that are going to be retired (and are being retired) just isn't feasible.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: mtnwest1979
Posted 2012-11-08 16:16:43 and read 982 times.

Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):
BTW: I would like to congratulate all those who work on SWA, it has become by far my favorite airline. Flew them for the first time today! Service was awesome, the plane was clean and I really liked the new interiors. I don't know why people complain about them. I am definitely flying them whenever I can.

What routing did you fly them?

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: chrisair
Posted 2012-11-08 16:31:41 and read 978 times.

Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):
I don't know why people complain about them.

How tall are you?

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: burnsie28
Posted 2012-11-08 16:33:13 and read 978 times.

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 2):
When those aircraft were build, electricity was not invented yet. No electricity on board --> no WiFi

Yet the DC-9's at DL have it.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: southwest737500
Posted 2012-11-08 16:36:41 and read 977 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 7):

Well if delta wanted to invest the money they can obviously WN isn't. I guess delta thought it was neccsearry

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: aklrno
Posted 2012-11-08 16:39:00 and read 976 times.

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 2):

When those aircraft were build, electricity was not invented yet. No electricity on board --> no WiFi


I''ll miss those kerosene reading lamps in the overhead PSU.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-08 16:53:43 and read 974 times.

By the way, not to hijack the thread or anything but today Global Eagle Acquisition Corp announced they were acquiring Row 44.

http://row44.com/news-post/global-ea...transaction-valued-at-approximate/

Quoting chrisair (Reply 6):
How tall are you?

Its now the same as other airlines, people are complaining for no reason.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: avi8
Posted 2012-11-08 17:31:52 and read 976 times.

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 5):

I flew BOS-MDW-HOU. It was awesome.

A bit out of topic, but does SWA bank flights at MDW? I know they don't operate hubs but I saw 26 aircraft parked at the gates and 3 (mine included) headed towards the runway.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: IMissPiedmont
Posted 2012-11-08 17:55:14 and read 974 times.

At the rate the -300s and -500s are appearing here in Tucson to be scrapped I'd be surprised if many will ever even undergo heavy maintainance.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-08 17:55:48 and read 974 times.

Quoting avi8 (Reply 11):
A bit out of topic, but does SWA bank flights at MDW?

SWA does not bank flights at all. Your looking at a big operation, 3 flights leaving at once is to be expected.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2012-11-08 18:20:57 and read 975 times.

Quoting avi8 (Reply 11):
A bit out of topic, but does SWA bank flights at MDW? I know they don't operate hubs but I saw 26 aircraft parked at the gates and 3 (mine included) headed towards the runway.
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 13):
SWA does not bank flights at all. Your looking at a big operation, 3 flights leaving at once is to be expected.

SWA absolutely banks flights at it's large connecting cities. I don't care what anyone says, WN now operates hubs and more so with every new flight schedule. I can speak for SAN especially where we have periods of the day where every gate files in one by one in minutes and other periods where there is little to nothing going on. Over the summer during the 10am hour we had 13 schedules departures (we only have 11 gates) and then later during the 12 noon hour we had 3 scheduled flights.

[Edited 2012-11-08 18:21:43]

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-08 19:58:37 and read 973 times.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 14):
SWA absolutely banks flights at it's large connecting cities. I don't care what anyone says, WN now operates hubs and more so with every new flight schedule.

I agree completely that SWA has hubs. Those hubs (which we are talking about) are not banked hubs however. Now whether SAN is banked is a separate question but we were talking hubs/focus cities or what ever you want to call them.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: countrymalenc
Posted 2012-11-08 20:35:21 and read 977 times.

You can call it what you want but at the larger SWA cities. Lots of connections are made available some as short as 25 min, others much longer. I believe the term is called ICO Inner connect opportunities. Probably one of the reasons many of the flights from east coast come to BNA, STL, DEN and HOU.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: SXDFC
Posted 2012-11-08 20:53:48 and read 975 times.

Although the -300s are not getting wifi, I have heard that the 90 -300s with winglets will also be the same ones getting the new "Evolve" interior..

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2012-11-08 21:15:42 and read 981 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 7):

DL has seperation anxiety with those vintage 9's. This was a trait that merged into them with NW. If most of the world ended and NW was still a stand alone carrier, the only survivors would be cockroaches and those DC-9's.   

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-11-09 06:24:00 and read 976 times.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 9):

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 2):

When those aircraft were build, electricity was not invented yet. No electricity on board --> no WiFi


I''ll miss those kerosene reading lamps in the overhead PSU.

I miss the evacuation cards on scrolls.  
Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 12):
At the rate the -300s and -500s are appearing here in Tucson to be scrapped I'd be surprised if many will ever even undergo heavy maintainance.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if WN went on a plan to stop heavy maintenance on any non-wingleted 737 and scrap them when the time comes.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 18):
If most of the world ended and NW was still a stand alone carrier, the only survivors would be cockroaches and those DC-9's.

   MadMax with T-tails...

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: Alnicocunife
Posted 2012-11-09 13:02:35 and read 974 times.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Yet the DC-9's at DL have it.
Quoting aklrno (Reply 9):
I''ll miss those kerosene reading lamps in the overhead PSU.

DC-9's were refitted with LED lights to eleminate the kerosene reading lamps and to free up electrons for wifi and seat power.

[Edited 2012-11-09 13:11:53]

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: cschleic
Posted 2012-11-09 13:04:27 and read 974 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 18):
If most of the world ended and NW was still a stand alone carrier, the only survivors would be cockroaches and those DC-9's.

Those 9's were built to last!

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2012-11-09 13:11:10 and read 974 times.

Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):
it has become by far my favorite airline. Flew them for the first time today!

Wow. You my friend are easily swayed... That's like going on one date with someone and saying you'd marry them.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 15):
hose hubs (which we are talking about) are not banked hubs however

They are banked, look at the schedules.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-09 13:36:56 and read 974 times.

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 2):

When those aircraft were build, electricity was not invented yet. No electricity on board --> no WiFi


Wrong! You can still put wifi equipment on any 733 regardless of age. One poster says DL's DC9's has the wifi, yet it's older than the 733's.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2012-11-09 14:05:47 and read 979 times.

Some of the -300's without winglets are leased so they'll be going back to the lessor

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2012-11-09 14:24:06 and read 1094 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 2):

When those aircraft were build, electricity was not invented yet. No electricity on board --> no WiFi


Wrong! You can still put wifi equipment on any 733 regardless of age. One poster says DL's DC9's has the wifi, yet it's older than the 733's.


But electricity wasn't invented yet!!  

           

[Edited 2012-11-09 14:29:34]

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: JHCRJ700
Posted 2012-11-09 14:34:21 and read 1105 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 18):
DL has seperation anxiety with those vintage 9's. This was a trait that merged into them with NW. If most of the world ended and NW was still a stand alone carrier, the only survivors would be cockroaches and those DC-9's.   

It'll be a sad day when the last one is retired. Fortunately the 9's will out live all of us and we won't have to see it!   

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: chrisair
Posted 2012-11-09 16:11:43 and read 1087 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
Wrong! You can still put wifi equipment on any 733 regardless of age. One poster says DL's DC9's has the wifi, yet it's older than the 733's.

Do you understand sarcasm...?  

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-09 16:19:46 and read 1077 times.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 27):
Do you understand sarcasm...?

There was not one of these at the end of said post -------->   

So, thats why I responded the way I did.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-11-09 19:06:07 and read 1072 times.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 9):
I''ll miss those kerosene reading lamps in the overhead PSU.

They upgraded to kerosene? How lovely. The last time I flew on one of their -300's, the tallow from the torches kept dripping on my trousers. Left unsightly burn stains.  

Where does the unit on the WN birds go? Same place as GoGo's under the fuselage, or does it go on top?

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: 737tdi
Posted 2012-11-09 22:22:00 and read 1049 times.

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 17):
Although the -300s are not getting wifi, I have heard that the 90 -300s with winglets will also be the same ones getting the new "Evolve" interior..




This is absolutely true. The Evolve interior takes one night to accomplish and does not require much in the way of certification. Basically weigh a few of the aircraft once the mod. is complete and voila, a new interior. The WiFi is much more complicated, I was involved in the initial wiring certifications on this with the NG and it was no cake walk.

Another thing to keep in mind, the wiring would be completely different. Such as IRS/ADIRU, power to the system itself would require a complete redesign, weight off/on wheels/10,000 ft. callout for activation. It's not just a matter of installing a piece of electronics in your car. Remember the Classic is almost completely analog. Remember just changing from one type of coffee maker to another can require a DER to investigate, inspect and certify. AFAIK, there are no other operators using Row44 on the Classic. If that is the case then WN would foot the majority of certification costs. It is just not worth it IMO and WN's opinion, as I understand it.

Hopefully, they will replace the kerosene lanterns on the classics. 

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: chrisair
Posted 2012-11-09 22:25:00 and read 1046 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
There was not one of these at the end of said post -------->   

So, thats why I responded the way I did.

Really? Do you think electricity was invented after 1980 or something?  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Same place as GoGo's under the fuselage, or does it go on top?

Top. Gogo is mounted in an unused antenna bay, I believe.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-11-09 22:54:03 and read 1045 times.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 31):
Really? Do you think electricity was invented after 1980 or something?  

Electricity was invented on October 27, 1992. Just in time for Boeing to install it into the first 73G's.   

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 30):
AFAIK, there are no other operators using Row44 on the Classic. If that is the case then WN would foot the majority of certification costs.

Why would Delta consider it worth it to do all this on the DC-9?

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: 737tdi
Posted 2012-11-09 23:25:20 and read 1039 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Why would Delta consider it worth it to do all this on the DC-9?




I will speak/write a little out of old knowledge. I don't know what system DL uses on the DC9/MD80/??

I do know that the 737 and DC9 are completely different critters. Not even close to being the same engineering. I think you probably understand but the structural differences in the two are considerable. I have worked many McD products and the differences are enormous. Have you ever heard of a external skin crack on a McD? I haven't, but sure have on the Classic 737. I think the the McD product is probably much easier to install a external ant./radome doubler and move on.

Plus maybe the wiring would be easier with the engines on the tail??? Staying away from fuel quantity and fuel shutoff wiring?? I just don't really know, that's just a guess. By spec. you have to maintain a set distance between the fuel qty. wiring and firewall shutoff wiring to be approved for any "after mods".

As I say, that is just a guess, slightly educated, but still a guess.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: mandala499
Posted 2012-11-09 23:37:15 and read 1033 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Where does the unit on the WN birds go? Same place as GoGo's under the fuselage, or does it go on top?

Gogo goes on belly antennas. Row-44 use topside satellite antennas.
The wi-fi doesn't care what plane it goes on... as long as it can have adequate DC power (or on older systems, AC).

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: chrisair
Posted 2012-11-09 23:39:15 and read 1033 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Electricity was invented on October 27, 1992. Just in time for Boeing to install it into the first 73G's.

Ah yes. How could I forget. Boeing also invented plumbing and running water on Dec. 8, 1989.  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Why would Delta consider it worth it to do all this on the DC-9?

Perhaps they piggybacked on the STC for the MD-8x installation? Either way, Gogo and Row 44 are completely different animals. Supposedly Gogo can be installed on an overnight stop, whereas Row 44 requires a lot more work. So I hear, this is why Alaska (sadly) opted for the Gogo system.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-11-09 23:58:10 and read 1035 times.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 35):
Boeing also invented plumbing and running water on Dec. 8, 1989.

Actually, that was Airbus. They installed it on the A320, thus developing the -200 variant.  

Up until then, passengers on airliners had to... Well, let's just say it wasn't pleasant.  covereyes 

[Edited 2012-11-09 23:59:21]

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: 737tdi
Posted 2012-11-10 00:08:09 and read 1032 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 34):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Where does the unit on the WN birds go? Same place as GoGo's under the fuselage, or does it go on top?


It is a satellite tracking unit on the top of the aircraft.



Gogo goes on belly antennas. Row-44 use topside satellite antennas.
The wi-fi doesn't care what plane it goes on... as long as it can have adequate DC power (or on older systems, AC).




Wow, that is not true in the least little bit. The Row44 system has to be able to track/follow satellites, so it has to know exactly where it is in space. The older IRU systems can not necessarily maintain that lock. The avionics of the Classic 737 v the NG are decades apart. Unless you are just speaking of the Gogo system. That system is no different then the cell service you used 20 years ago onboard. Faster of course but the same basic system.

If you are planning on over water operations, I don't think that makes alot of sense.

For all of you airline gurus, what systems does the WiFi system go through. Everybody seems to make it so simple. Can it work below 10,000', if not/or so what makes it so. Can it work on the ground? If not/or so what makes it so.

Bottom line it does not work well on the Classic 737, the doublers required, the enginering required, the money required. It Just isn't worth it. You wouldn't install $2000 worth of wheels on a $1000 car to get more money out of it....

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: mandala499
Posted 2012-11-10 00:24:44 and read 1034 times.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 37):
Wow, that is not true in the least little bit.

Not true in the least little bit?
Hello, it is an antena ontop!
Row44 on WN uses the Ku-Stream/QEST low-profile Ku-Band Antennas. It has to be put on the top side of the fuselage.

Gogo, is a CDMA antenna at the lower part of the fuselage that goes down to ground base stations.
If you think that's not true... I dunno what is then...

The Ku-band antennas does not have to take in position from the avionics if "it is too unreliable". Independent GPS antennas, and even a mini "Satellite Referece Unit" (pitch, roll, compass, GPS position) can be installed to provide the position and attitude reference to the Beam Control Unit... but, WN's choice, is its choice... besides, it'll just means more STC work!   

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 37):
For all of you airline gurus, what systems does the WiFi system go through. Everybody seems to make it so simple. Can it work below 10,000', if not/or so what makes it so. Can it work on the ground? If not/or so what makes it so.

Depending on which system you use, it CAN be as simple as people say it is, or it can be extremely complex. Just depends on the WiFi access point vendors, onboard LAN cables & network... get the STC, and operational approval... (yes, it sounds a lot easier like this than in reality... no one's trying to fool anyone here).

Can it work below 10,000ft, yes... regulators don't allow it, so, autoshutoff switch is available in some system. Can it work on the ground? The WiFi? Yes... but again, regulators...
On the ground? Put a TWLU on the planes...

But, yes, it is an economic issue... If the Row44 system is worth more than the market value of the aircraft... well, no one's going to get it, even if it's on a new aircraft. I sell satcom / IFEC stuff cheaper than the Row44/Ku system... and airlines will always complain that whatever you bring to them, "it's too expensive".

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: 737tdi
Posted 2012-11-10 00:42:26 and read 1030 times.

Let's just put it this way,.

There is no way to install Row44 on the Classic. This is not necessarily true but the cost is far beyond the financial viability of the installation. Maybe a tweak on the radome, maybe a little massage of the structure. Really? Not going to happen. I don't know what else to say. I gave the reasons so I am out.

Topic: RE: Why Aren't SWA's 300's Getting WiFi?
Username: mandala499
Posted 2012-11-10 00:47:40 and read 1029 times.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 39):
This is not necessarily true but the cost is far beyond the financial viability of the installation.

This is simply, and rightly, the reason!

And, yes, manufacturers of competing systems also said, "737 Classics? Get a SRU for the antenna otherwise the system will just be dead weight!"


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