Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5604586/

Topic: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: g500
Posted 2012-11-05 12:46:31 and read 1750 times.

Hawaiian airlines' aggressive expansion across the Pacific and to the U.S mainland has given HNL it's status back as an international connecting hub".... Great article


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...reascendant-connecting-hub-378236/

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-05 13:09:34 and read 1771 times.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
Hawaiian airlines' aggressive expansion across the Pacific and to the U.S mainland has given HNL it's status back as an international connecting hub"..

It's OK to the South Pacific but HNL isn't a good connecting hub between North America and Asia due to the geography. It's much further via HNL than via hubs on the mainland or via NRT/ICN etc. HA will have to offer competitive fares (probably lower than other carriers to offset the several hours of additional travel) but it often means carrying the passenger up to a couple of thousand miles further in each direction. Doesn't sound very economic.

Just one example:

JFK-HKG nonstop 7014 nm

JFK-ICN-HKG 7117 nm
JFK-NRT-HKG 7461 nm
JFK-YVR-HKG 7683 nm
JFK-SFO-HKG 8266 nm
JFK-LAX-HKG 8459 nm
JFK-HNL-HKG 9169 nm (I realize there's no nonstop service HNL-HKG but it illustrates the mileage difference to Asia via HNL)

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: flyingalex
Posted 2012-11-05 13:15:11 and read 1764 times.

I think the key is that Hawaiian serves - and connects - secondary markets like PDX, SAN, SNA, OAK, SJC, PHX, FUK or CTS.

Journeys between them can take a lot longer on 2-stop connections via conventional hubs.

I that sense, I think you can compare Hawaiian with Emirates, whose customers accept a longer overall travel distance for a single-connection itinerary.

For example, PHX-HNL-FUK is easier than PHX-SFO-NRT-FUK, in the same way that GLA-DXB-PER is easier than GLA-LHR-SIN-PER.

[Edited 2012-11-05 13:26:07]

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: FlyingHollander
Posted 2012-11-05 13:24:18 and read 1765 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Just one example:

JFK-HKG nonstop 7014 nm

JFK-ICN-HKG 7117 nm
JFK-NRT-HKG 7461 nm
JFK-YVR-HKG 7683 nm
JFK-SFO-HKG 8266 nm
JFK-LAX-HKG 8459 nm
JFK-HNL-HKG 9169 nm (I realize there's no nonstop service HNL-HKG but it illustrates the mileage difference to Asia via HNL)

You should use a West Coast example instead. These connections are a lot more interesting as these are "real" transpacific flights as aposed to polar flights. Also the West Coast is a bigger market for them.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-11-05 13:33:27 and read 1761 times.

Its important to note, Hawaiian has to often sell such connections at discount compared to non stops, and even throws in free stop over, and most recently a free inter-island airfare as part of such itineraries.

But as HA CEO has repeatedly stated HA business is Hawaii and to sell Hawaii first and foremost.

As article mentions transfers to/from North America represent mere 1.7% of traffic. Even it were to double or triple its still small coconuts.

Simply put HNL will never regain the transfer business it had going back to the 1960s. Like Anchorage, that ship has long sailed.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: mham001
Posted 2012-11-05 13:33:59 and read 1760 times.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
I think the key is that Hawaiian serves - and connects - secondary markets like PDX, SAN, SNA, OAK, SJC, FUK or CTS.

Journey between them can take a lot longer via conventional hubs.

If you're speaking of Asia, I would count SJC and OAK out. SFO has it all covered..

Last time I looked, Hawaiian didn't have good connection times for my destination and no holiday time. One way required a 22 hour layover or some such thing. I am attracted to the idea of staying for a short holiday. Flying out of SJC was attractive too but not 22 hours, or even the additional hours of flight time, when SFO is 35 minutes up the road.

[Edited 2012-11-05 13:36:38]

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: redzeppelin
Posted 2012-11-05 13:38:08 and read 1762 times.

The article clearly states that HNL's geography is not suitable for most Asia-USA flights. It focuses on the current ability to connect passengers on USA-South Pacific routes and the potential for future connections between Asia and Latin America. I thought that some of the passenger statistics were very interesting. Especially the fact that >98% of foreign-to-USA connections at HNL are apparently connecting to other airports in the Hawaiian islands. Although I knew that HNL-TYO was a big market, I didn't realize that it was second only to NYC-LON for international routes from the US.

Quote:
"Honolulu is already a major international gateway. It handled 465,749 through passengers to the USA in 2011, according to a report from the Brookings Institution earlier in October. This makes it one of just 17 airports - including Atlanta, Los Angeles and Seattle - in the country that handled nearly 97% of all international through passengers during the year. Interestingly, only 1.7% of that traffic at Honolulu travelled through to the North American mainland.

"The city also hosts three of the 50 busiest international routes from the USA. According to Brookings, Honolulu to Tokyo was the second busiest route after New York to London with 1.4 million passengers in 2011, while Honolulu to Osaka was number 36 with 434,631 annual passengers and Honolulu to Seoul number 40 with 401,094 passengers. All of these are routes served by Hawaiian."

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-05 13:40:15 and read 1763 times.

HNL could be a very idealistic connecting point for Asian routes to the southern Americas, in my opinion, because of the geography. IIRC some south American airlines did do this back in the old days.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: flyingalex
Posted 2012-11-05 13:42:13 and read 1761 times.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 5):
If you're speaking of Asia, I would count SJC and OAK out. SFO has it all covered..

Last time I looked, Hawaiian didn't have good connection times for my destination and no holiday time. One way required a 22 hour layover or some such thing. I am attracted to the idea of staying for a short holiday. Flying out of SJC was attractive too but not 22 hours, or even the additional hours of flight time, when SFO is 35 minutes up the road.

Granted, a 22-hour layover wouldn't be attractive, but what you want to look at are destinations which are not served nonstop from SFO either. At first glance, that seems to be FUK, CTS and BNE.

If you live closer to SJC or OAK, and you're going to have at least one connection anyway, you might as well fly from the closer airport, and fly via HNL.

So there is some scope for expansion, but in the end, this will win out:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
But as HA CEO has repeatedly stated HA business is Hawaii and to sell Hawaii first and foremost.

As article mentions transfers to/from North America represent mere 1.7% of traffic. Even it were to double or triple its still small coconuts.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-05 13:44:19 and read 1765 times.

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 3):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Just one example:

JFK-HKG nonstop 7014 nm

JFK-ICN-HKG 7117 nm
JFK-NRT-HKG 7461 nm
JFK-YVR-HKG 7683 nm
JFK-SFO-HKG 8266 nm
JFK-LAX-HKG 8459 nm
JFK-HNL-HKG 9169 nm (I realize there's no nonstop service HNL-HKG but it illustrates the mileage difference to Asia via HNL)

You should use a West Coast example instead. These connections are a lot more interesting as these are "real" transpacific flights as aposed to polar flights. Also the West Coast is a bigger market for them.

LAX-HKG nonstop 6309 nm

LAX-SFO-HKG 6312 nm
LAX-ICN-HKG 6325 nm
LAX-NRT-HKG 6337 nm
LAX-YVR-HKG 6494 nm
LAX-HNL-HKG 7060 nm

SEA-ICN-HKG 5649 nm
SEA-YVR-HKG 5665 nm
SEA-NRT-HKG 5744 nm
SEA-SFO-HKG 6609 nm
SEA-HNL-HKG 7165 nm

Still over 700 nm further (close to 2 hours flying time) in each direction from LAX than most other routings. The difference gets bigger the further north you go. From SEA It's 1400-1500 nm further each way via HNL than via ICN/NRT/YVR (no nonstop service SEA-HKG).

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: jpetekyxmd80
Posted 2012-11-05 13:48:39 and read 1761 times.

This article is probably written a few years early for this to be any large scale impact in this regard. The new service to Oceania is intriguing though. Particularly AKL with ANZ having a near monopoly from the USA.

In terms of Asia, there are a few niche opportunities presented with the route network. However, with the kind of fares Hawaii service is commanding, not sure it's in HA's own best interest to really push or compete for most of this traffic. I'm sure the preference remains for the Hawaiian tourist.

[Edited 2012-11-05 13:53:12]

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-11-05 14:01:14 and read 1764 times.

"While Honolulu has no direct flights to the region currently, an A330-200 could fly nonstop to the west coast of South America, including Lima, Mexico City and Santiago, Chile, from the airport. "
Mexico yes, Lima possibly, Santiago definitely not.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: gemuser
Posted 2012-11-05 16:17:54 and read 1760 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
Mexico yes, Lima possibly, Santiago definitely not.

Why not? It's 5958 nm, a three class A332 has a nominal range of 7,250 nm, so it is well within the aircraft's specifications, QF operated AKL-LAX which is 5652 nm. Practically there would be days that it might take a payload hit, but I doubt it would be that often or that much. Mind you HA would need ETOPS 330, (not even ETOPS 240 would be enough), that is one *lonely* stretch of ocean.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: gemuser
Posted 2012-11-05 16:38:22 and read 1759 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
But as HA CEO has repeatedly stated HA business is Hawaii and to sell Hawaii first and foremost.

This is the key point! HA is developing HNL as a hub again BUT not in the normal sense where you want the connection to be quick and seamless, but where you stop over for a couple of days either going or coming or ideally both. That's the market they are developing the hub for from North America to Asia, not to compete with the non stops or better sited hubs. For Australia/NZ/South America they could develop the hub for both types of traffic. They do seem to be moving in that direction for the SW Pacific.

HNL will never be the major Trans Pacific hub it was before the B74L/744 came along, BUT there is potential for HA to develop NEW & DIFFERENT markets based around HNL's location and to make a very comfortable living in its niche.


Gemuser
.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-11-05 17:12:46 and read 1760 times.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 13):
This is the key point! HA is developing HNL as a hub again BUT not in the normal sense where you want the connection to be quick and seamless, but where you stop over for a couple of days either going or coming or ideally both.

How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days". Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: roadrunner165
Posted 2012-11-05 17:16:22 and read 1761 times.

My wife and I are traveling to the Philippines from Alaska via Honolulu in January. We have a 2 day layover in Honolulu in both directions. I find a layover in HNL much more attractive than flying from SEA of SFO. We view the layover as a bonus mini vacation. We're booked on Alaska Airlines and Philippine Airlines. Our only reason for not choosing Hawaiian is that Manila is not our final destination therefore Philippine Airlines offered much easier transfers to Cebu.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: jpetekyxmd80
Posted 2012-11-05 17:22:41 and read 1760 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):

How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days". Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.

True, I agree in most circumstances and this won't be any major part of their business plan for the foreseeable future. However, something like JFK-HNL-SYD...yeah, I can see there being a market for a stopover.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-11-05 19:11:28 and read 1759 times.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 12):

Why not? It's 5958 nm, a three class A332 has a nominal range of 7,250 nm, so it is well within the aircraft's specifications, QF operated AKL-LAX which is 5652 nm. Practically there would be days that it might take a payload hit, but I doubt it would be that often or that much. Mind you HA would need ETOPS 330, (not even ETOPS 240 would be enough), that is one *lonely* stretch of ocean.

Three problems:
1- Unless I missed something Airbus has not certified any airframe-engine package for ETOPS 330.
2- HA's A332 are higher density than QF's. About 55 more seats.
3- +300nm
When you add all 3 together it puts SCL out of range and LIM with a paylot hit most likely. HA will have to wait for the A350 if they want to venture into S.America.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: gemuser
Posted 2012-11-05 19:28:26 and read 1757 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days".
Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):

Three problems:
1- Unless I missed something Airbus has not certified any airframe-engine package for ETOPS 330.
2- HA's A332 are higher density than QF's. About 55 more seats.
3- +300nm
When you add all 3 together it puts SCL out of range and LIM with a paylot hit most likely. HA will have to wait for the A350 if they want to venture into S.America.

Disagree
1) I believe this can be done fairly quickly, from Airbus's point of view. In my opinion Airbus would be fairly amenable to doing this at a reasonable cost to HA. True HA will still need the experience required by the FAA, that will come with time.
2) So? Don't HA's A332s have the highest MTOW? QFs sure don't.
3) Its +306 nm  . HNL-SCL is still 1292 nm LESS than the A332's nominal range. This should be enough of a buffer, most days.
SunriseValley: do you have any input on its feasibility?

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: gemuser
Posted 2012-11-05 19:46:02 and read 1758 times.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 16):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):

How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days". Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.

True, I agree in most circumstances and this won't be any major part of their business plan for the foreseeable future. However, something like JFK-HNL-SYD...yeah, I can see there being a market for a stopover.

Not the majority of their business plan, of course not, but I can see a fair size "niche" market that would be well worth developing. Within 12/24 months HA will be uplifting THREE DAILY A332 out of the SW Pacific (SYD, BNE,AKL). That's 759 to 879 seats per day depending on exact cabin config. That's approaching UA total of around 900 per day!! If they add MEL, as rumored, they will exceed UAs uplift from the SW Pacific!!!
I cant see all three (let alone 4) surviving on just Hawaii O&D, it will be necessary to develop SW Pacific and some Asian traffic into transit traffic to North America. Which IMHO is very doable.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: qf002
Posted 2012-11-05 20:00:06 and read 1761 times.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 13):

To add to this point, it's important to remember the impact that through traffic can have on local tourism. Look at how tourism has boomed in DXB with the growth of EK, despite the fact that the vast majority of their traffic passes straight through the airport.

Developing the hub develops the network and makes HA a more competitive player for local traffic (ie flying to cities that other airlines can only offer with a stop). It's also very profitable, money which can then be invested in stimulating local traffic by promoting the airline and the destination.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-05 20:17:17 and read 1761 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days". Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.

I surely do, I don't like flying trans-Pac non-stop.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 19):
Not the majority of their business plan, of course not, but I can see a fair size "niche" market that would be well worth developing.

  

For any or Aussie or Kiwi, flying to SEA, PDX, SJC, SAN, LAS, PHX, JFK - (or even, for many, SFO) - is always one stop. There may be a fair few who would prefer to make that stop in Hawaii, with a bit of a holiday thrown in as a bonus.

I don't think anyone claims it would be huge numbers, but it does't need huge numbers. An aggregation of small numbers may well be sufficient.

mariner

[Edited 2012-11-05 20:26:36]

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: QFA380
Posted 2012-11-06 05:09:43 and read 1761 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days". Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.

I surely do, I don't like flying trans-Pac non-stop.

I know plenty of people who are using Hawaii as a stopover on a trip to (usually from) the US.

Fairly standard pattern seems direct to LAX or SFO, work your way across to the country, often to Chicago or New York. Then a direct flight to HNL and two or three days before flying home. No one wants to ruin a great holiday by sitting on planes for 24 hours when you can enjoy a fairly cheap tag on to your holiday on the beach and make the flying less painful.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: koruman
Posted 2012-11-06 06:10:00 and read 1762 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days".

Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.

Erm, we're called Australians - and that is why Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne and Auckland all have rapidly expanding flights to Honolulu, all of which are more than 80% "outbound" travellers except for Auckland.

Let me give you a few pointers.

1) I get 5 weeks paid vacation per year - like many Australians. But my primary employer also allocates 28 days per year for international travel. I usually combine them to the extent permitted by our equivalent of the IRS, and where the school semesters permit my wife and kids join me in Honolulu or Orange County for the first or last few days of a trip.

Last year, for example, I had four trips to or through Honolulu and two to or through Los Angeles.

2) Of my closest friends and colleagues, around a dozen went to Hawaii from Australia for leisure purposes last year, even for birthday and wedding celebrations, because for any stay longer than around 5 days it is now cheaper for Australians to go to Hawaii than Cairns.

I understand that Americans get very limited paid annual vacations, and have to use them judiciously.

But when Australians go on business to the USA, the time zone changes and once daily flight frequencies tend to mean that even a two day meeting (let's say Wednesday and Thursday in Seattle) means that the entire working week is lost back in Australia.

So when I recently had precisely that itinerary (Wednesday and Thursday meetings in Seattle), my starting point was that I knew that my directors expected me to take the whole week away.

I then applied for the preceding Friday as one single day of annual leave. I flew Friday, and thanks to the international dateline I had Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday in Honolulu before using most of Tuesday going to Seattle. I then flew back on Friday to Australia, and was properly rested before returning to work on Monday.

If I had simply tried to carve out the shortest possible trip and arrive the night before my meeting I would have worked Monday and flown on Tuesday to Seattle (one-stop) and I'd have had no margin for missed connections. I would have been stressed and exhausted and the company's investment could have been destroyed by a missed connection. I would have used one day less of my work travel entitlement and one day less of my annual paid vacation time.

But doing it my way I was happy - I got four full days in Hawaii for the use of 1 day of paid annual leave and judicious use of two weekends. My employer was happy - I participated fully and in an awake state as if I hadn't just got off an airplane. And I burned one of my 25 days of paid annual leave.

Hawaii is very much viable now as a stopover on business trips to the mainland USA for Australians.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: Cessna172RG
Posted 2012-11-06 06:24:09 and read 1764 times.

I just wish that SEA-HNL-FUK's price would be competitive with a routing like SEA-NRT-FUK. $3000 per person in coach for SEA-HNL-FUK is a bit insane.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: metsfan1
Posted 2012-11-06 06:28:54 and read 2026 times.

I think JFK-HNL-SYD is very attractive since in the GC map HNL is almost exactly on the route between NYC and SYD and just about halfway. If they could make the connecting flight times match up (which I believe they currently do not) it could be a very viable alternative to going to Australia from the NYC area. Personally, I love LAX for spotting but it is horrible to stop and transfer through (basically your main option to OZ out of NYC). I may not be majority but if I have to stop I actually prefer breaking the flight in half instead of a few hours to LAX then a really long flight to OZ.

Just my 2 cents. This isn't possible though until they adjust the JFK - OZ connecting flight times.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-11-06 07:21:30 and read 2016 times.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 18):
Disagree
1) I believe this can be done fairly quickly, from Airbus's point of view. In my opinion Airbus would be fairly amenable to doing this at a reasonable cost to HA. True HA will still need the experience required by the FAA, that will come with time.
2) So? Don't HA's A332s have the highest MTOW? QFs sure don't.
3) Its +306 nm . HNL-SCL is still 1292 nm LESS than the A332's nominal range. This should be enough of a buffer, most days.
SunriseValley: do you have any input on its feasibility?

I would love to see real data but I still don't think it's economically feasible. However on second look I don't think ETOPS330 is necessary. The route deviation to achieve ETOPS 240 looks to be very minor. Still, 6,000nm for a high density A332 over the South Pacific is a very long way  

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: CalebWilliams
Posted 2012-11-06 10:16:05 and read 2146 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 23):
I understand that Americans get very limited paid annual vacations, and have to use them judiciously.

Paid time off? What the h*ll is that? I'm I'm lucky I might get one week a year eventually, but I've been working for years have never had one day of PTO.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: flyingalex
Posted 2012-11-06 11:12:46 and read 2121 times.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 27):

Paid time off? What the h*ll is that? I'm I'm lucky I might get one week a year eventually, but I've been working for years have never had one day of PTO.

Vote with your feet and emigrate to a country that treats employees better.

Australia has some fascinating programs available for skilled migrants, and the commodities boom there has led to a lot of well-paid jobs being created.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: idlewildchild
Posted 2012-11-06 12:18:58 and read 2099 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days". Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.

Friends just stopped in HA both directions heading to Sydney. They LOVED HA service and said it was a great great experience. They flew from JFK and felt the HNL and I think LIH break was perfect way to start and end the trip. I definately think there's a major market here.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-06 15:56:22 and read 2045 times.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 18):
Don't HA's A332s have the highest MTOW? QFs sure don't.

You don't want higher MTOW than necessary as it means higher landing fees almost everywhere except at US airports where it's based on max. landing weight.

Quoting koruman (Reply 23):
Hawaii is very much viable now as a stopover on business trips to the mainland USA for Australians.

What percentage of traffic between the US and Australia is US-origin vs. Australia-origin?

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: koruman
Posted 2012-11-06 16:19:11 and read 2061 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 30):
What percentage of traffic between the US and Australia is US-origin vs. Australia-origin?

It depends upon the destination, but Australia-Honolulu is well over 70% outbound Australians going to or beyond Hawaii.

It's the combination of a strong A$ plus a booming economy and a market in which everyone has at least three weeks of paid annual leave, and the demographic groups who take long-haul vacations mainly are entitled to four or five weeks of paid annual leave.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: koruman
Posted 2012-11-06 16:45:55 and read 2065 times.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 27):
Paid time off? What the h*ll is that? I'm I'm lucky I might get one week a year eventually, but I've been working for years have never had one day of PTO.
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 28):
Vote with your feet and emigrate to a country that treats employees better.

Australia has some fascinating programs available for skilled migrants, and the commodities boom there has led to a lot of well-paid jobs being created.

Fair Work Australia's website ( http://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/ann...al-leave-does-an-employee-get.aspx ) reports that:

"An employee is entitled to 4 weeks paid annual leave for each 12 months of service; or 5 weeks paid annual leave for some shift workers for each 12 months of service."

Obviously the fact that the USA lags international standards so badly in terms of paid leave compromises Honolulu's viability as a hub, because it effectively has to act as an inbound hub with limited outbound long-haul leisure traffic.

If you consult http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_leave

.....you will see that the developed countries have an average of 25 working days (i.e. five weeks) of paid annual leave, whereas Japan has 18 days (3.6 weeks) and the USA brings up the rear with 12 days (2.4 weeks), which makes long-haul leisure travel an impossible dream for most Americans.

It's unfortunate, and it is why Hawaiian's flights to Sydney and Brisbane and Auckland will be dominated by Aussies and Kiwis.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-06 17:08:52 and read 2061 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 32):
whereas Japan has 18 days (3.6 weeks)

However I believe few Japanese take their full entitlement.

Quoting koruman (Reply 32):
Fair Work Australia's website ( http://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/ann...al-leave-does-an-employee-get.aspx ) reports that:

"An employee is entitled to 4 weeks paid annual leave for each 12 months of service; or 5 weeks paid annual leave for some shift workers for each 12 months of service."

The minimum is also 4 weeks in Switzerland (5 weeks for employees less than 20 years of age). Anything above 4 weeks is up to the employer but it's common to get an extra week or two after 10 or 20 years of service.

I believe the minimum in Germany is 6 weeks, which probably explains why Germany is usually #1 or close to it in longhaul international travel per capita.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: ha763
Posted 2012-11-06 20:26:48 and read 2019 times.

Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 24):

I just wish that SEA-HNL-FUK's price would be competitive with a routing like SEA-NRT-FUK. $3000 per person in coach for SEA-HNL-FUK is a bit insane.

What days are you looking at? I pulled up many days where it is $1200 or less each way. Many days are in the $600 range.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: thegeek
Posted 2012-11-06 22:11:41 and read 2011 times.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 18):
2) So? Don't HA's A332s have the highest MTOW? QFs sure don't.

All of QFs A332s have the 233t MTOW, which is the 2nd highest MTOW, only 5t short of the 238t highest. It's the A333s which are well off the mark.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 18):
3) Its +306 nm . HNL-SCL is still 1292 nm LESS than the A332's nominal range. This should be enough of a buffer, most days.

It's also more east-west which will strike more winds along the way. Is it necessary to go all the way to SCL for such a flight? Somewhere like LIM might result in more direct connections for a lot of people. I'm sure someone else could suggest something even better.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: flyingalex
Posted 2012-11-06 22:34:14 and read 2011 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
I believe the minimum in Germany is 6 weeks, which probably explains why Germany is usually #1 or close to it in longhaul international travel per capita.

For new hires, it's now 5 weeks, though that gets upgraded to 6 weeks after a few years.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: gemuser
Posted 2012-11-06 23:08:08 and read 2000 times.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 35):
It's also more east-west which will strike more winds along the way.

??? Whats more east-west? SCL? SCL is 122.2 degrees from HNL, its closer to SE/NW then EW. LIM is 104.4, which is closer to EW. Seems to me all things being equal LIM would be more wind affected than SCL, although only by a small (tiny?) amount.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: thegeek
Posted 2012-11-06 23:21:21 and read 2002 times.

^ I meant SCL-HNL as compared to AKL-LAX. The former has a 289 degree initial heading, the latter 50 degree.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: gemuser
Posted 2012-11-07 02:45:11 and read 1973 times.

Ah, I see. Yes that's true.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-11-07 05:47:13 and read 1971 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 32):
Obviously the fact that the USA lags international standards so badly in terms of paid leave compromises Honolulu's viability as a hub, because it effectively has to act as an inbound hub with limited outbound long-haul leisure traffic.

That's true but keep in mind that just because there's a lack of Federal regulation it doesn't mean that market forces don't play a role in it. Still 60% of American workers get paid time off. I work in the IT sector in the US and I have 4 weeks of paid vacation per year, plus 10 paid holidays, plus more sick days than I ever needed. So all combined I have at least 6 weeks of paid time off which I never fully use. Most people I know have similar vacation entitlements. Now if you work in a industry where there's a lot more suply on the labor side (construction, hospitality, etc), then employers have no incentive to provide a lot if any paid time off. There's also the fact that the US has a huge percentage of self-employed and small business owners.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 35):
It's also more east-west which will strike more winds along the way. Is it necessary to go all the way to SCL for such a flight? Somewhere like LIM might result in more direct connections for a lot of people. I'm sure someone else could suggest something even better.

IIRC, SCL is a much bigger market to Japan/China than LIM so if the point is to provide a viable alternative between S.America and Asia, SCL makes more sense than LIM otherwise it becomes a 2 stop route for passengers to/from SCL.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: thegeek
Posted 2012-11-07 15:11:34 and read 1944 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 40):
IIRC, SCL is a much bigger market to Japan/China than LIM so if the point is to provide a viable alternative between S.America and Asia, SCL makes more sense than LIM otherwise it becomes a 2 stop route for passengers to/from SCL.

Hmm, might be hard for 2 stop routes via HNL to compete with 1 stop routes via LAX between S America and the far east.

So is there a market to connect HNL and S America?

-
Back to the OP, it's really just BNE-HNL which adds a lot of value. NZ already connect AKL to HNL, SFO and YVR (perhaps others). I don't see the huge deal with HA flying AKL-HNL.

I'd wonder about MEL-HNL as well as BNE-HNL. DIdn't work for JQ, but with HA's connecting traffic, it is possible. The difference is that BNE-HNL prevents a backtrack, and MEL-HNL doesn't.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: koruman
Posted 2012-11-07 15:31:03 and read 1955 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 40):
That's true but keep in mind that just because there's a lack of Federal regulation it doesn't mean that market forces don't play a role in it. Still 60% of American workers get paid time off.

I work in the IT sector in the US and I have 4 weeks of paid vacation per year, plus 10 paid holidays, plus more sick days than I ever needed.

So all combined I have at least 6 weeks of paid time off which I never fully use. Most people I know have similar vacation entitlements.

Now if you work in a industry where there's a lot more suply on the labor side (construction, hospitality, etc), then employers have no incentive to provide a lot if any paid time off. There's also the fact that the US has a huge percentage of self-employed and small business owners.

But it's the lack of regulation that affects this. If my staff don't use their 4-5 weeks' annual paid leave over any 2 year span I have to pay it out to them, so I have a very, very strong incentive in ensuring that they take it all, or it costs me $$$$.

There seems to be no equivalent in the US to cashing out unused leave entitlements - but in Australia it is the law:

http://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/ann...ages/cashing-out-annual-leave.aspx

So any manager nationwide will do everything within his or her power to ensure that every hour of staff leave entitlements is taken.

(BTW, there is clearly a culture clash here: your comments that "60% of Americans have paid time off" reads to me as being as shocking as "60% of Americans can read" or "60% of Americans aren't slaves" would read. It's a horrifying figure to the rest of us, but I guess we just have to respect one another's different values.)

Quoting thegeek (Reply 41):
I'd wonder about MEL-HNL as well as BNE-HNL.

DIdn't work for JQ, but with HA's connecting traffic, it is possible.

The difference is that BNE-HNL prevents a backtrack, and MEL-HNL doesn't.

Firstly, JQ had no connecting traffic, so MEL-HNL was an O+D route for them.

Secondly, we've already established in this thread that Australians get at least twice as long as paid annual leave than Americans do. Americans get more one-off public holidays, but they do not enable long-haul travel.

When JQ's MEL-HNL route failed, the Australian dollar bought US$0.71. Now it buys US$1.04, and has been worth more than $1 for almost the entire last two years.

That equates to a 46.5% increase in purchasing power for Australians visiting the USA, and it means that demand for Hawaii has skyrocketed in Australia.

[Edited 2012-11-07 16:13:32]

[Edited 2012-11-07 16:15:34]

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2012-11-08 11:03:37 and read 1888 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 40):
IIRC, SCL is a much bigger market to Japan/China than LIM so if the point is to provide a viable alternative between S.America and Asia, SCL makes more sense than LIM otherwise it becomes a 2 stop route for passengers to/from SCL.

Sorry, but that's not true at all. If anything, it's quite the opposite: LIM is a much bigger market to Japan/rest of Asia than SCL. SCL can't even support non-stop flights to LAX on a year-round basis.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: g500
Posted 2012-11-08 13:45:34 and read 1872 times.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 43):

Yes but Chile's export market is much larger than Peru's. Isn't it?

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-11-09 05:22:02 and read 1844 times.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 43):
Sorry, but that's not true at all. If anything, it's quite the opposite: LIM is a much bigger market to Japan/rest of Asia than SCL. SCL can't even support non-stop flights to LAX on a year-round basis.

Interesting on the market size considering Chile's per capita GDP is almost twice that of Peru's. But what does LAX have to do with traffic to Asia? From SCL today you can get to Asia via CDG, ATL, JFK, DFW, all of which are about the same distance as going via LAX and quite possibly better. Transiting at LAX can be an absolute nightmare. JFK is not that much better tho  

On the topic of HNL becoming a viable option between S.America and Asia I say, absolutely. Even more so if HNL got an exemption to allow intl2intl transit passengers without having to clear immigration and customs like they used to pre 9/11. LAX already allows transiting without clearing customs so even that setup would be an improvement. The only ? I have is whether HA can stimulate the O&D market between S.America and Hawaii enough so the routes wouldn't have to rely entirely on connecting passengers.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-11-09 08:04:32 and read 1843 times.

I don't see Hawaiian in Latin America for a very very very long time.

Why - there simply is virtually no local traffic to Hawaii from the region.

In 2011 the entire Latin America region only produced 22,116 visitors to the islands.(that's barely 60 per day!)
Of these about 10,000 were from Brazil and about 7,000 from Mexico.

So you'll see HA in Europe which is a rather small market itself to Hawaii before you see HA in Latin America.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2012-11-09 10:08:41 and read 1831 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 44):
Chile's export market is much larger than Peru's. Isn't it?

Of course it is. Chile started signing market liberalization agreements like 10 years before Peru. That said, Peru also has such agreements (FTAs) with Japan, South Korea, China, Thailand and Singapore and it's a full member of APEC, so there are important economic ties between Peru and those Asian economies.


.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 45):
Interesting on the market size considering Chile's per capita GDP is almost twice that of Peru's. But what does LAX have to do with traffic to Asia?

As interesting as the fact that Chile's per capita GDP at PPP is almost twice that of Brazil's too, yet that doesn't mean Brazilians can't afford to fly long-haul. Well, the same applies to Peruvians.

Now, when I mentioned LAX in my previous post, I meant that if SCL-LAX nonstop (or the entire US west coast for that matter) cannot work on a year-round basis (which is a fact), then SCL-HNL doesn't stand a chance.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: Ben175
Posted 2012-11-09 10:24:57 and read 1833 times.

I still dream for a PER-HNL direct flight to connect me to JFK!

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-11-09 10:50:21 and read 1829 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 46):
In 2011 the entire Latin America region only produced 22,116 visitors to the islands.(that's barely 60 per day!)
Of these about 10,000 were from Brazil and about 7,000 from Mexico.

But that's only 1 part of the equation and with a huge barrier that is a roundabout route via the US to get to Hawaii. Add a more direct route from S.America and that traffic is likely to double. The traffic between Latin America and Asia is quite large and getting larger by the day and that's a market that HA can get a piece of if they decide to grow from being an Hawaii tourist board tool and become a real hub airline in the Pacific. Personally I think there's more potential in S.America-Asia then in Europe-Hawaii.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-09 10:57:00 and read 1827 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 45):
From SCL today you can get to Asia via CDG, ATL, JFK, DFW, all of which are about the same distance as going via LAX and quite possibly better.

You forgot to mention that SCL has non-stop flights to both AKL and SYD where connections to Asia are available.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-11-09 11:03:58 and read 1822 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 49):
But that's only 1 part of the equation and with a huge barrier that is a roundabout route via the US to get to Hawaii. Add a more direct route from S.America and that traffic is likely to double. The traffic between Latin America and Asia is quite large and getting larger by the day and that's a market that HA can get a piece of if they decide to grow from being an Hawaii tourist board tool and become a real hub airline in the Pacific. Personally I think there's more potential in S.America-Asia then in Europe-Hawaii.

Double, or even triple its still a tiny market.

Remember my totals are for an entire continent.

There is no such thing as a single gateway for the continent. So it does not matter if you pick LIM, SCL or MEX, each gateway will be problematic in capturing the traffic from the rest of the region one reason or another.

You think the person in Argentina will do EZE-XXX-HNL-NRT when they could do EZE-ATL-NRT or EZE-Europe-NRT already? Or someone in Mexico back track down to Lima when they come up the US or Canada?


And lastly remember HA has explicitly and repeatedly said they are not chasing after or looking to build a Pacific hub.
Their mission is to sell Hawaii first and foremost. Whatever connection traffic they get it by happenstance, not by design.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: incitatus
Posted 2012-11-09 11:07:44 and read 1802 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 46):
In 2011 the entire Latin America region only produced 22,116 visitors to the islands.(that's barely 60 per day!)
Of these about 10,000 were from Brazil and about 7,000 from Mexico.

Travel between Hawaii and Brazil is simply not convenient. The schedules suck.

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: gemuser
Posted 2012-11-09 15:02:10 and read 1802 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 51):
And lastly remember HA has explicitly and repeatedly said they are not chasing after or looking to build a Pacific hub.
Their mission is to sell Hawaii first and foremost. Whatever connection traffic they get it by happenstance, not by design.

I see absolutely no conflict between your first and second sentence. HA can build a "stay a few days" hub at HNL and it appears to me that is exactly what they have started to do. There is plenty of precedence for such a hub on the Kangaroo Route, SIN has done it and DXB is doing it (admittedly neither is that exclusively, but they do it). It just requires a bit of "out of the box" thinking about what a "hub" is about.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-11-10 06:19:18 and read 1776 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 51):
There is no such thing as a single gateway for the continent. So it does not matter if you pick LIM, SCL or MEX, each gateway will be problematic in capturing the traffic from the rest of the region one reason or another.

With the incoming fleet of A350's HA could potentially reach GRU, SCL, LIM, CCS, MEX and link just about every major city in Latin America to Asia and Australia. If they wish to do so.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 51):
You think the person in Argentina will do EZE-XXX-HNL-NRT when they could do EZE-ATL-NRT or EZE-Europe-NRT already? Or someone in Mexico back track down to Lima when they come up the US or Canada?

No. EZE is an edge case for that but SCL/LIM-HNL all of a sudden makes Hawaii a much more accesible destination from Brazil and Argentina.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 51):
And lastly remember HA has explicitly and repeatedly said they are not chasing after or looking to build a Pacific hub.
Their mission is to sell Hawaii first and foremost. Whatever connection traffic they get it by happenstance, not by design.

My point exactly:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 49):
The traffic between Latin America and Asia is quite large and getting larger by the day and that's a market that HA can get a piece of if they decide to grow from being an Hawaii tourist board tool and become a real hub airline in the Pacific.

The potential for HA to be more than "to sell Hawaii" is huge, if they chose to go that route. The two fastest growing airline markets in the World are Asia and S.America. The fastest growing economies in the World are in Asia and S.America.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/