Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5607255/

Topic: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: mffoda
Posted 2012-11-09 11:21:37 and read 772 times.

Have not seen this posted yet... We now have China potentially canceling more wide bodies..

Quoting:

"Nov 9 (Reuters) - HNA Group, China's fourth-largest aviation group, is in talks with Airbus and may cancel its order for 10 A380 aircraft with a total list price of $3.8 billion due to weak market conditions, chairman Chen Feng said on Friday."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...irbuis-china-idUSL3E8M985D20121109

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: MCIGuy
Posted 2012-11-09 11:41:54 and read 773 times.

This sounds like political wrangling to me. I'm sure they could use the lift.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2012-11-09 11:44:42 and read 773 times.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 1):

Yup...
Probably something to do with EU ETS...they've warned against this in the past, have they not?

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-09 11:48:38 and read 775 times.

It was in the news before. HNA Group halted the expansion of Hong Kong Airlines duo the weak market conditions.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-09 11:49:41 and read 775 times.

I'm sure there's a political component to this but I also think there's no where HU can economically place a 380.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: MCIGuy
Posted 2012-11-09 11:54:12 and read 773 times.

Convsersion to A350? I couldn't help but notice that the A350 order isn't mentioned in the article, only A330s and A380s.

[Edited 2012-11-09 12:00:35]

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-11-09 12:08:11 and read 773 times.

So we aren't allowing for the possibility that 10 A380s is just too much growth for Hong Kong Airlines at this point in time?

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: mffoda
Posted 2012-11-09 12:08:19 and read 774 times.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 5):
Convsersion to A350? I couldn't help but notice that the A350 order isn't mentioned in the article, only A330s and A380s.

Personally, I was thinking it could turn out like the 787 for 737 deal. Except A320's in this case.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: boeingbus
Posted 2012-11-09 12:13:16 and read 775 times.

How about the order of the 747-8 that was announced long ago???

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...es-orders-b747-8-and-a380-aircraft

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-11-09 12:20:14 and read 778 times.

First one A380 customer goes belly-up (Kingfisher), and now Hong Kong Airlines is about to cancel their order. Hmmm... trouble in Toulouse?

I wonder, with UA in the market for a 744 replacement, if Leahy will make a sweetheart deal to sell those 15 A380s that HX and IT ordered to UA for part of their 744 replacement plan (the rest being a switch of A350-900s for -1000s). HX's deliveries were to start in 2015 and IT's in 2016 (and neither have chose their engine option), which dovetails perfectly with when UA will need those planes.

[Edited 2012-11-09 12:26:04]

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: Revelation
Posted 2012-11-09 12:35:57 and read 775 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):

I wonder, with UA in the market for a 744 replacement, if Leahy will make a sweetheart deal to sell those 15 A380s that HX and IT ordered to UA for part of their 744 replacement plan (the rest being a switch of A350-900s for -1000s)

Is UA in a position to throw that much more capacity onto the routes that the 744s are flying?

I thought they were happy to reduce capacity to A350-900 to try to drive up yields.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-11-09 12:52:59 and read 779 times.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 1):
This sounds like political wrangling to me. I'm sure they could use the lift.

Would hainan be as affected by politics since they are private unlike the other large Chinese airlines?

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-11-09 12:54:52 and read 777 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Is UA in a position to throw that much more capacity onto the routes that the 744s are flying?

I thought they were happy to reduce capacity to A350-900 to try to drive up yields.

That was Tilton's plan.

Smisek sees room for at least a A350-1000 or 77W-sized airplane to replace the 744s. UA has also expressed interest in the 748I and (more recently) the A380.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: fcogafa
Posted 2012-11-09 14:15:05 and read 778 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):

First one A380 customer goes belly-up (Kingfisher), and now Hong Kong Airlines is about to cancel their order. Hmmm... trouble in Toulouse?

Surely Skymark will soon add to this list.....

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-09 14:30:22 and read 778 times.

Quoting boeingbus (Reply 8):
How about the order of the 747-8 that was announced long ago?

Never firmed and likely never will be (they never firmed their 787 MoU, either).

I expect part of the reason is that Hong Kong's aviation regulator has denied their requests to expand the airline, so they either may not be allowed to add a VLA - be it the A380 or the 747-8, much less both - or feel that trying to add one will hurt their position with the regulators.

[Edited 2012-11-09 14:33:31]

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-11-09 14:39:12 and read 778 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Is UA in a position to throw that much more capacity onto the routes that the 744s are flying?

I thought they were happy to reduce capacity to A350-900 to try to drive up yields.

As FWAERJ, the A359 is no longer UA's planned replacement for the 744s. A separate thread discusses that it is possible that the A35K will be ordered to replace the 744 fleet. I suppose the plan to downsize to A359 came before the merger with CO.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-11-09 16:05:36 and read 776 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
I suppose the plan to downsize to A359 came before the merger with CO.

That is correct. The decision to shrink from the 744 to the A359 was made about three years before the UA/CO merger under Glenn Tilton. After the UA/CO merger, the plans started to change with Smisek in charge.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-09 18:33:59 and read 776 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):

Hong Kong Airlines is not allowed by the regulator to add additional aircraft, the regulator has he opinion that it has expanded too quickly and the internal people (eg trainers) are not there at the moment. From what I hear it is taking a very long time to get people online.

They are however only one small part of the group.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: Newark727
Posted 2012-11-10 09:56:16 and read 773 times.

Something else in that article:

Quote:
HNA, which bought a 48 percent stake in France's second-largest airline Aigle Azur last month

1. It is? Last I checked they had like twelve planes. But then there isn't much besides AF anyway...
2. Why?

But on topic, while Hong Kong Airlines is one HNA thing that they've been growing aggressively, they also have regular old Hainan Airlines- isn't Hainan a decent sized tourist destination for mainland China? I think that's what they're trying to build it into, anyway. So maybe they'd rather upgauge on those routes if they can't make HKG work yet, and the A380 is less suitable for the task.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: babybus
Posted 2012-11-10 10:55:28 and read 775 times.

When Europe and the western world was on the up in the 1980s every airline couldn't get hold of big enough aircraft.

China and India are supposed to be on the up and yet they are not looking for big aircraft. You'd think they'd be in an A380 buying frenzy to handle their new vibrant markets. Is the definition of a booming market different nowdays I wonder.

It might be that they can't generate capacity to fill those aircraft. They are very big.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: Prost
Posted 2012-11-10 11:14:44 and read 774 times.

Perhaps China sees their model of route development to be similar to the USA. Several large cities where airlines can hub from, so they can have multiple flights from multiple cities instead of funneling all traffic into one hub?

The Chinese are pretty intelligent about their business development, and I'm sure that they'll pick the best model that works for them. They may still be in that decision making process, if there is even one.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: AustrianZRH
Posted 2012-11-10 11:14:49 and read 773 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 19):
every airline couldn't get hold of big enough aircraft

Partly it was surely caused by the size of a 747. But keep in mind that there was nothing else but the 747 on the market that was able to do Europe-West Coast or Europe-Hong Kong or Europe-South Africa nonstop rangewise!

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: Newark727
Posted 2012-11-10 11:59:29 and read 773 times.

Quoting Prost (Reply 20):
Perhaps China sees their model of route development to be similar to the USA. Several large cities where airlines can hub from, so they can have multiple flights from multiple cities instead of funneling all traffic into one hub?

China is way too huge to funnel through only a handful of hubs, they've got dozens of cities with 1 million+ people all over the country. I can see it becoming more like the decentralized hubs of the United States given enough time but since so much of the current prosperity and growth is in coastal cities it doesn't seem unreasonable that they'd have a need for high-capacity aircraft on short-ish intra-China hauls for some time to come.

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: Aither
Posted 2012-11-10 12:24:41 and read 771 times.

Quoting Prost (Reply 20):
Perhaps China sees their model of route development to be similar to the USA. Several large cities where airlines can hub from, so they can have multiple flights from multiple cities instead of funneling all traffic into one hub?


American airlines were making losses and did close secondary hubs to concentrate only on a few.

Hong Kong Airlines dropped the London route recently. They were just operating the A330 on this route and could not make it work. So It's more an airline problem than a market problem.

It is true growth in China will be more distributed but in term of volumes cities like Shanghai or Beijing will continue to get much bigger than everything we have seen in the world. As an example the tallest skycrapers in the world are being built in Pudong. For Chinese airlines it's a chance to operate from such big markets and should concentrate there to build superhubs allowing them to expand where no competitors could penetrate.

[Edited 2012-11-10 12:33:54]

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: shankly
Posted 2012-11-11 08:35:18 and read 772 times.

The number of airline Chairmen and CEO's who are simply willy wavers never ceases to amaze me

Weak market conditions = crap business plan

Fact is the A380 is a big boys toy and if operated correctly is a cash cow. Pretenders should stick to 737's and A320's

Topic: RE: HNA Group May Cancel 10 A380s - Chairman
Username: Polot
Posted 2012-11-11 08:40:02 and read 772 times.

Quoting shankly (Reply 24):
The number of airline Chairmen and CEO's who are simply willy wavers never ceases to amaze me

Weak market conditions = crap business plan

Fact is the A380 is a big boys toy and if operated correctly is a cash cow. Pretenders should stick to 737's and A320's

Except of course, as Zeke mentioned, Hong Kong Airlines is not currently allowed to expand the number of aircraft in their fleet, and their long haul flights to LGW were a miserable failure. Perhaps they should spend more time with 737s and A320s before playing with big boy toys...they obviously are not ready yet.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/