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Topic: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-06 09:41:12 and read 2440 times.

INSTRUCTIONS

WHAT IS THIS REPORT?
This compares what is for sale THIS WEEK for the stated period versus what was for sale LAST WEEK...It does NOT compare to last year or now (UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED).

HOW DO I READ IT?
XXX-YYY DEC 4>5 JAN 4>5 ; means that the listed airline changed the frequency between the two airports to add from 4 to 5 roundtrips in December and January. No other months were changed. I only list one direction, although it is possible the listed change is only one way. It is too difficult to average the two directions. I assume the change is roundtrip and that is most often the case.

HOW ARE THE DAILY DEPARTURES CALCULATED?
This report uses total operations for the month listed, divided over the days in the month.

WHAT ARE THE FRACTIONAL FLIGHTS?
Non-daily operations create fractional weekly service. In most cases flights are rounded, but in the case of international service or markets with low frequency, fractions are shown. If a flight operated 5 days out of 7, it would show 0.8 flights.

WHY ARE THERE WEIRD FREQUENCIES IN FAR AWAY MONTHS FOR LCCs?
Most airlines publish schedules 11 months in advance. This report covers the next 9 months. That avoids seeing schedules as they are loaded. Several LCCs load their schedules less than 9 months into the future. Their schedules may also end mid-month. If B6 loads their schedule until Jan15, all flights in Janaury will show half frequency because of the way the report is created.

WHY IS A WHOLE AIRLINE'S SCHEDULE SHOWN AS CHANGING FOR A FUTURE MONTH?
Similarly to the previous question, some airlines load their schedule from nothing inside the 9 month window of this report. When their schedule is extended it will show as new service because there was no previous schedule to compare to. In some instances I will show a more valid comparison against another period.

THOSE FLIGHTS AREN'T DELTA, THEY ARE PINNACLE
This report only shows the marketing code. It is too complicated to show all the operators.

THE FREQUENCIES MAY HAVE CHANGED AS YOU SHOW, BUT THE SEATS DIDNT CHANGE BECAUSE OF EQUIPMENT SWAPS
That is a natural weakness of a frequency based report, but it provides something to discuss below.

THE FREQUENCY DOESN'T SHOW A CHANGE, E.G. 4>4
This happens as a result of rounding. There is a change in service that is large enough to be listed, but through rounding it does not appear.

I marked some of the ones I thought were interesting with an "*".

9V MIA-BLA DEC 0.8>1.0 JAN 0.8>1.0

*AA DFW-BPT FEB 0>3 MAR 0>4 APR 0>4 MAY 0>4 JUN 0>4 JUL 0>4
*AA DFW-COU FEB 0>1.0 MAR 0>1.8 APR 0>1.9 MAY 0>1.9 JUN 0>1.8 JUL 0>1.9
*AA DFW-FAR MAR 0>1.0 APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
*AA DFW-ICN MAY 0>0.7 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
*AA DFW-LIM APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
*AA JFK-DUB JUN 0>0.6 JUL 0>1.0
*AA ORD-COU MAR 0>1.0 APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
*AA ORD-DUS APR 0>0.7 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0

AM DEN-MEX JAN 0.5>0.7
AM LAX-GDL JAN 1.8>1.0 FEB 2>1.0 MAR 2>1.0 APR 2>1.0 MAY 2>1.0 JUN 2>1.0 JUL 2>1.0

*AS LAX-LAP MAR 0.4>0.2 APR 0.4>0.0 MAY 0.4>0 JUN 0.4>0 JUL 0.5>0
AS LAX-LTO MAR 0.7>1.0 APR 0.7>1.0
AS LAX-STS JUN 1.8>3 JUL 1.9>3
AS PDX-BIL JUL 1.0>0.7
*AS SEA-SLC APR 0>1.8 MAY 0>2 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2

BA PHX-LHR APR 0.9>1.0 MAY 0.8>1.0 JUN 0.9>1.0 JUL 0.8>1.0

BB SJU-VQS DEC 0.6>0 JAN 0.5>0.2
BB VQS-SJU DEC 0.6>0 JAN 0.5>0.2

DL ATL-BOG JUN 1.0>1.8 JUL 1.0>2
DL BOS-CMH JAN 1.6>0.8 FEB 1.7>1.3
DL DTW-NGO MAY 0.7>0.9 JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0
DL JFK-CHS MAR 1.0>2 APR 1.0>2 MAY 1.0>2 JUN 1.0>2 JUL 1.0>2
DL JFK-IST APR 0>0.1 MAY 0.3>1.0
DL LAX-JFK MAR 8>7 APR 8>7 MAY 8>7 JUN 8>7 JUL 8>7
DL LGA-CLE JAN 5>4
DL MEM-MCO JAN 3>1.8
DL MOT-MSP MAR 8>7 APR 8>7 MAY 8>7
Uh oh...
*DL PIT-CDG MAY 0.7>0.5 JUN 1.0>0.7 JUL 1.0>0.7
DL SPN-NRT JUN 3>2

Looks like NK is driving F9 out of another market in peak season.
F9 DEN-BIL JAN 1.0>0.7 FEB 0.9>0 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0
F9 DEN-FLL FEB 2>1.0 MAR 2>1.0 APR 1.6>1.0

FL MCO-SJU APR 3>1.3 MAY 3>0
FL SJU-TPA APR 1.0>0.4 MAY 1.0>0

G3 MIA-SDQ DEC 0>0.5 JAN 0>1.0 FEB 0>1.0 MAR 0>0.8 APR 0>0.7 MAY 0>0.7 JUN 0>0.7 JUL 0>1.0

IB LAX-MAD MAR 0.4>0

JJ MCO-GRU JAN 2>3
JJ MIA-BSB DEC 0.6>0.7 JAN 0.5>0.8
JJ MIA-GIG DEC 1.0>1.3 JAN 1.0>1.5
JJ MIA-MAO JAN 1.0>1.2

KE DFW-ICN MAY 0.7>1.0 JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0

OR LAX-AMS JUN 0.1>0.3 JUL 0.2>0.3
OR MIA-AMS MAY 0.1>0.3 JUN 0.1>0.3 JUL 0.2>0.5
OR OAK-AMS JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>0.1

P7 ROR-HKG DEC 0>0.3 JAN 0>0.3 FEB 0>0.3 MAR 0>0.3 APR 0>0.3 MAY 0>0.3 JUN 0>0.3 JUL 0>0.3
P7 ROR-TPE DEC 0.6>0.4 JAN 0.5>0.4 FEB 0.6>0.4 MAR 0.6>0.4 APR 0.6>0.4 MAY 0.6>0.5 JUN 0.6>0.4 JUL 0.6>0.5

PR GUM-MNL DEC 0.7>3 JAN 0.7>3 FEB 0.7>3 MAR 0.7>3 APR 0.7>4 MAY 0.7>3 JUN 0.7>3 JUL 0.7>3

UA EWR-AVL APR 0.7>0
UA EWR-BDA JUN 1.0>1.3 JUL 1.0>1.4
UA EWR-GSO MAR 4>3
UA EWR-MCI MAR 5>4
UA EWR-MHT MAR 4>3
UA EWR-MSP MAR 6>5
UA EWR-NAS APR 1.1>3 MAY 1.0>2 JUN 1.0>2 JUL 1.0>2
UA EWR-PHL MAR 4>3
UA EWR-SAV MAR 3>1.7
UA EWR-SEA MAR 2>3
UA EWR-YVR JUN 0>0.8 JUL 0>1.0
UA IAH-ACA JUL 0.7>1.0
UA IAH-LIR APR 1.8>3 JUN 1.8>3 JUL 2>3
UA IAH-MBJ JUN 0.9>1.0 JUL 1.0>1.1
UA IAH-MGA JUN 2.0>3 JUL 2>3
UA IAH-SAL JUN 2>3 JUL 2>3
UA IAH-SAP APR 1.1>1.3 MAY 1.0>1.3 JUN 1.0>1.9 JUL 1.0>2
UA IAH-SJD MAY 1.7>1.8 JUN 1.7>3 JUL 1.7>1.9
UA LAX-ITO MAR 1.0>0.7
UA LAX-ITO MAR 1.0>0.7
UA LAX-KOA MAR 2>1.7
UA LAX-PIT MAR 1.0>0.7
UA ORD-YVR APR 4>3
UA SFO-KOA MAR 2>1.9

UN JFK-DME FEB 0.3>0.4 MAR 0.4>0.5
UN LAX-DME FEB 0.3>0.1 MAR 0.3>0.2

UP MIA-NAS MAY 3>4 JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4

US BOS-CUN JUN 0>0.2 JUL 0>0.1
US CLT-MYR FEB 8>9
US DCA-ORF FEB 4>5
US DCA-YOW FEB 1.8>1.5
Interesting. Smaller planes or do they sniff B6 on the route?
*US PHL-BOS FEB 16>18 MAR 15>17 APR 15>18 MAY 15>18 JUN 15>17 JUL 15>18
US PHL-EWR FEB 6>7
US PHL-GSO FEB 6>5
US PHL-MDT FEB 8>7
US PHL-RDU FEB 8>7
*US PHL-SNN MAY 0>0.3 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
US PHL-YOW FEB 4>3
US PHX-FLG FEB 6>5
US PHX-LAS FEB 10>8 MAR 11>8 APR 11>8 MAY 11>8 JUN 11>8 JUL 11>8

W3 JFK-LOS APR 0>0.4 MAY 0>0.4 JUN 0>0.4 JUL 0>0.4

WP HNL-JHM DEC 5>4
WP HNL-KOA JAN 0>0.4 FEB 0>0.4 MAR 0>0.5 APR 0>0.4 MAY 0>0.4 JUN 0>0.5 JUL 0>0.4
WP HNL-LIH DEC 1.0>2.0 JAN 1.0>3 FEB 1.0>3 MAR 1.0>3 APR 1.0>3 MAY 1.0>3 JUN 1.0>3 JUL 1.0>3
WP HNL-LNY DEC 5>3
WP HNL-MKK DEC 6>5 JAN 6>5 FEB 6>5 MAR 6>5 APR 6>5 MAY 6>5 JUN 6>5 JUL 6>5
WP HNL-OGG JAN 3>4 FEB 3>4 MAR 3>4 APR 3>4 MAY 3>4 JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4
WP JHM-HNL DEC 6>5 JAN 6>5 FEB 6>5 MAR 6>5 APR 6>5 MAY 6>5 JUN 6>5 JUL 6>5
WP KOA-HNL JAN 0>0.4 FEB 0>0.4 MAR 0>0.5 APR 0>0.4 MAY 0>0.4 JUN 0>0.5 JUL 0>0.4
WP KOA-OGG DEC 1.5>1.0 JAN 1.4>1.0 FEB 1.4>1.0 MAR 1.5>1.0 APR 1.4>1.0 MAY 1.4>1.0 JUN 1.5>1.0 JUL 1.4>1.0
WP LIH-HNL DEC 2>3 JAN 2>3 FEB 2>3 MAR 2>3 APR 2>3 MAY 2>3 JUN 2>3 JUL 2>3
WP LIH-OGG DEC 1.5>1.0 JAN 1.4>1.0 FEB 1.4>1.0 MAR 1.5>1.0 APR 1.4>1.0 MAY 1.4>1.0 JUN 1.5>1.0 JUL 1.4>1.0
WP LNY-HNL DEC 6>5 JAN 6>7 FEB 6>7 MAR 6>7 APR 6>7 MAY 6>7 JUN 6>7 JUL 6>7
WP LNY-JHM DEC 0>0.5
WP MKK-HNL DEC 4>3 JAN 4>3 FEB 4>3 MAR 4>3 APR 4>3 MAY 4>3 JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3
WP MKK-JHM DEC 1.0>0 JAN 1.0>0 FEB 1.0>0 MAR 1.0>0 APR 1.0>0 MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0
WP MKK-LNY DEC 1.0>2 JAN 1.0>2 FEB 1.0>2 MAR 1.0>2 APR 1.0>2 MAY 1.0>2 JUN 1.0>2 JUL 1.0>2
WP OGG-HNL DEC 1.5>2.0 JAN 1.4>4 FEB 1.4>4 MAR 1.5>4 APR 1.4>4 MAY 1.4>4 JUN 1.5>4 JUL 1.4>4
WP OGG-KOA DEC 1.5>1.0 JAN 1.4>1.0 FEB 1.4>1.0 MAR 1.5>1.0 APR 1.4>1.0 MAY 1.4>1.0 JUN 1.5>1.0 JUL 1.4>1.0
WP OGG-LIH DEC 3>1.5 JAN 3>1.0 FEB 3>1.0 MAR 3>1.0 APR 3>1.0 MAY 3>1.0 JUN 3>1.0 JUL 3>1.0

ZK DEN-FMN APR 3>4 MAY 3>4 JUL 3>4
ZK FMN-SOW APR 0>0.7 MAY 0>0.7 JUL 0>0.7

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: MountainFlyer
Posted 2012-11-06 09:48:43 and read 2447 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
F9 DEN-BIL JAN 1.0>0.7 FEB 0.9>0 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0


What happened here? Did I miss something from prior weeks? Interesting.

[Edited 2012-11-06 09:49:09]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-06 09:49:40 and read 2449 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
BA PHX-LHR APR 0.9>1.0 MAY 0.8>1.0 JUN 0.9>1.0 JUL 0.8>1.0

Hm I guess it didn't 100% load into the system as daily when it was announced a while ago. That's what I'm thinking, at least.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL PIT-CDG MAY 0.7>0.5 JUN 1.0>0.7 JUL 1.0>0.7

Why "uh-oh?" Maybe it's just a seasonal drawback?

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL SPN-NRT JUN 3>2

What a/c does this one fly on? An intra-asia 757? Are these ETOPS?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: crosswinds21
Posted 2012-11-06 09:53:32 and read 2453 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
KE DFW-ICN MAY 0.7>1.0 JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0

Well this is an interesting and immediate response to AA. I'm REALLY curious to see who's going to win this one out.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2012-11-06 10:00:43 and read 2446 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter): *DL PIT-CDG MAY 0.7>0.5 JUN 1.0>0.7 JUL 1.0>0.7
Why "uh-oh?" Maybe it's just a seasonal drawback?

Doesn't really warrent the "uh-oh" but I digress.

PIT-CDG is seasonal in the first place, instead now they are planning to run it at 5x per week instead of daily.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-06 10:04:17 and read 2449 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
Doesn't really warrent the "uh-oh" but I digress.

Pulling down a route in the one season it makes money? It's definitely not a *good* sign.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-06 10:04:27 and read 2448 times.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 3):
Well this is an interesting and immediate response to AA. I'm REALLY curious to see who's going to win this one out.

I think there has to be an equilibrium. DFW-ICN can support 10x weekly, but I dont know about daily.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: as739x
Posted 2012-11-06 10:05:54 and read 2446 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
Why "uh-oh?" Maybe it's just a seasonal drawback?

Reduction during the high travel summer season, doesn't make sense.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: panamair
Posted 2012-11-06 10:17:08 and read 2442 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
Pulling down a route in the one season it makes money? It's definitely not a *good* sign.
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):

PIT-CDG is seasonal in the first place, instead now they are planning to run it at 5x per week instead of daily.

PIT-CDG has never ever run daily. DL always default loads all their summer flights at daily frequency and then adjusts them. You can also see JFK-AGP, JFK-KEF, JFK-PSA all loaded as daily, but I can almost guarantee these will not run daily and will be adjusted in the coming weeks. Most of these have been running at less than daily the past few summers.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-06 10:21:04 and read 2443 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Looks like NK is driving F9 out of another market in peak season.
F9 DEN-BIL JAN 1.0>0.7 FEB 0.9>0 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0
F9 DEN-FLL FEB 2>1.0 MAR 2>1.0 APR 1.6>1.0

Should I be puzzled that Frontier's addition of (new) winter service DEN-JAC doesn't appear in this or the last two OAG threads?

I could easily have missed it, I guess, but I've checked back the pevious two threads and I don't see it, although it is publicly available for sale.

An even earlier thread, perhaps? Or it isn't loaded in OAG?

mariner

[Edited 2012-11-06 10:22:14]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: SANFan
Posted 2012-11-06 10:22:37 and read 2444 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
Why "uh-oh?" Maybe it's just a seasonal drawback?

Seasonal frequency reduction -- in the May, June and July? "Huh-oh" is right! This definitely needs watching...

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*AS LAX-LAP MAR 0.4>0.2 APR 0.4>0.0 MAY 0.4>0 JUN 0.4>0 JUL 0.5>0
AS LAX-LTO MAR 0.7>1.0 APR 0.7>1.0

Looks like LAP is being shut down -- or at least suspended -- with the capacity being shifted to LTO. Makes sense as I would think SJD would be able to accomodate those headed for LAP.

bb

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-06 10:24:39 and read 2444 times.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 1):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
F9 DEN-BIL JAN 1.0>0.7 FEB 0.9>0 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0
What happened here? Did I miss something from prior weeks? Interesting.

I posted articles to the same effect in another thread. It is gone, like so many other things.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL PIT-CDG MAY 0.7>0.5 JUN 1.0>0.7 JUL 1.0>0.7
Why "uh-oh?" Maybe it's just a seasonal drawback?
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
Doesn't really warrent the "uh-oh" but I digress.
PIT-CDG is seasonal in the first place, instead now they are planning to run it at 5x per week instead of daily.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
Pulling down a route in the one season it makes money? It's definitely not a *good* sign.
Quoting as739x (Reply 7):
Reduction during the high travel summer season, doesn't make sense.

Maybe it was 5/week last year, don't remember, but it isn't going to be daily this Summer. Clearly they hoped it would. It's not true that they publish all routes as daily in the Summer. NGO is a great example. It went the other way. It was loaded 5/week and was increased to daily. Clearly they hoped it would be daily in its one season and now it is 5/week.

One thing I do know is that PIT-CDG ran from March 26 to October this year and it now doesn't even start (at 5/week) until mid-May. Not good at all...

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2012-11-06 10:30:05 and read 2445 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL DTW-NGO MAY 0.7>0.9 JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0

This is good news, and should end the rumours on ANet that DL would end DTW-NGO, and move the flight to SEA.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: SANFan
Posted 2012-11-06 10:30:56 and read 2445 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 8):
PIT-CDG has never ever run daily

Well, except according to the June and July 2011 DL timetables which show it operated DAILY. Here, for example, is the llisting under "PIT" for June 2011:

Quote:
PARIS, FRANCE 3909 mi
C-Charles De Gaulle; O-Orly
6:35 8:20C 204 0 D 752 æ

bb

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-06 10:32:48 and read 2441 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 8):
PIT-CDG has never ever run daily. DL always default loads all their summer flights at daily frequency and then adjusts them. You can also see JFK-AGP, JFK-KEF, JFK-PSA all loaded as daily, but I can almost guarantee these will not run daily and will be adjusted in the coming weeks. Most of these have been running at less than daily the past few summers.
Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
One thing I do know is that PIT-CDG ran from March 26 to October this year and it now doesn't even start (at 5/week) until mid-May. Not good at all...

It does not seem to be that high demand of a route though, but I'm assuming someone in PIT is subsidizing a lot of it. Either way I'm none too worried about this route.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: panamair
Posted 2012-11-06 10:41:40 and read 2442 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Maybe it was 5/week last year, don't remember, but it isn't going to be daily this Summer.

I know you have a flair for DRAMA, but the flight ran at 4x weekly in March/Apri/Mayl this year, and then went to 5x weekly during the summer, before going back to 4x weekly in the fall.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...new-direct-flight-to-paris-655796/

".....In 2013, the flight is scheduled to start on May 12 and run until the last week of October. Delta plans to operate the service five days a week through most of the season, from June until Oct. 25, spokesman Anthony Black said.

This year, the flight started at four days a week, expanded to five during the summer, and now is back at four..."

[Edited 2012-11-06 10:44:02]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: panamair
Posted 2012-11-06 10:46:05 and read 2441 times.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 13):
Well, except according to the June and July 2011 DL timetables which show it operated DAILY. Here, for example, is the llisting under "PIT" for June 2011:

Yes, you're right, my mistake then - sorry about that. Don't remember if 2011 was still under the subsidy.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: clrd4t8koff
Posted 2012-11-06 10:48:50 and read 2443 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*US PHL-BOS FEB 16>18 MAR 15>17 APR 15>18 MAY 15>18 JUN 15>17 JUL 15>18

18 daily flights?!?!? And WN couldn't even make 2-3 flights a day work?? Is this a route B6 would/should look at entering?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-06 11:20:00 and read 2444 times.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 12):
This is good news, and should end the rumours on ANet that DL would end DTW-NGO, and move the flight to SEA.

That would not be a good move. DTW-NGO is a huge auto industry route. There is a reason why DTW-NGO can be supported yet, SFO-NGO cant. DTW-NGO is high yielding and a large local market. Its niche route that SEA simply couldnt do as well as DTW.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2012-11-06 11:20:54 and read 2444 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 15):
".....In 2013, the flight is scheduled to start on May 12 and run until the last week of October. Delta plans to operate the service five days a week through most of the season, from June until Oct. 25, spokesman Anthony Black said.

This year, the flight started at four days a week, expanded to five during the summer, and now is back at four..."

Look at DL's TATL flying planned in totality for Summer 2013. Capacity on routes, expect for hub-to-hub, is way down. Most of the seasonal TATL flights have a shorter season that in year's past. This speaks more about DL's overall strategy than it does specifically for the health of PIT-CDG.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-11-06 11:25:44 and read 2442 times.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 10):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*AS LAX-LAP MAR 0.4>0.2 APR 0.4>0.0 MAY 0.4>0 JUN 0.4>0 JUL 0.5>0
AS LAX-LTO MAR 0.7>1.0 APR 0.7>1.0

Looks like LAP is being shut down -- or at least suspended -- with the capacity being shifted to LTO. Makes sense as I would think SJD would be able to accomodate those headed for LAP.

Is this a seasonal suspension during the hot summer? AS has already dropped LAP once and then reinstated it years later. They ran it with a 734 around 2000 (I forget the exact years) and then discontinued it. Then it came back several years ago with a 734; then was changed to a QX CR7; then Q400.

SJD can accommodate it if you like a several hour bus ride. That's what I had to do in between AS serving LAP. So I'd dispute that SJD is sufficient. Sure, LAX can accommodate FAT traffic too, but wouldn't you rather just fly to your destination than several hours of grand transportation?

Personally I liked LAP much more than SJD. LAP is very authentic Mexico and the malecon is wonderful.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: PITrules
Posted 2012-11-06 11:36:43 and read 2442 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):

One thing I do know is that PIT-CDG ran from March 26 to October this year and it now doesn't even start (at 5/week) until mid-May. Not good at all...

At the same time, I believe it will run 5x weekly for a longer stretch than it has this year.

Quoting panamair (Reply 16):

Yes, you're right, my mistake then - sorry about that. Don't remember if 2011 was still under the subsidy.

It did operate daily in the summer of 2011, without subsidy. The subsidy ended after the spring of 2011.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
but I'm assuming someone in PIT is subsidizing a lot of it.

Only the paying customers.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-11-06 11:40:40 and read 2443 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Maybe it was 5/week last year, don't remember, but it isn't going to be daily this Summer. Clearly they hoped it would. It's not true that they publish all routes as daily in the Summer. NGO is a great example. It went the other way. It was loaded 5/week and was increased to daily. Clearly they hoped it would be daily in its one season and now it is 5/week.

most of Europe is loaded daily then adjusted.
Asia not so much.

Quoting panamair (Reply 16):
Yes, you're right, my mistake then - sorry about that. Don't remember if 2011 was still under the subsidy.

I do believe it was.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: jetsetter629
Posted 2012-11-06 11:47:26 and read 2442 times.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 17):
18 daily flights?!?!? And WN couldn't even make 2-3 flights a day work?? Is this a route B6 would/should look at entering?

That is exactly the reason why WN couldn't make it work - US had the FF base and frequency. With a flight ever hour, it was great for customer. PHL-BOS might as well be considered a "shuttle route"

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: SANFan
Posted 2012-11-06 12:19:11 and read 2442 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
SJD can accommodate it if you like a several hour bus ride. That's what I had to do in between AS serving LAP. So I'd dispute that SJD is sufficient.

The map shows Cabo to La Paz as 75 miles on a fairly direct road (highway?) I haven't been to LAP or driven the area so I don't know from personal experience what the condIitions are like or how long it normally takes so I will take your word for it.

However, as the LAX-LAP route has been flown (lately) with a Q400 less than daily, I would have to presume that AS has decided that their resources are better used elsewhere, such as for more capacity between LA and LTO (which does NOT have any other airport nearby.) Alaska has kept their station at LAP open for at least the last year or two with only 1, 75-pax flight, 3 days a week, and I'm sure that situation has been looked at pretty closely. I stick by my original thinking about the route.

The Q400 fleet is not increasing (as far as I know) so it is a constant chess game for route planning to keep moving the pieces around the board to where they are most profitable. And I think we'll be seeing more of the same game in 2013, both domestically and trans-border.

bb

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: COSPN
Posted 2012-11-06 12:33:16 and read 2578 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
What a/c does this one fly on? An intra-asia 757? Are these ETOPS?

Yes I believe so but not required IWO (Iwojima) is 1/2 way between NRT and SPN so it has been flown on non-etops in the past

Who is the new airline to ROR P7 ????

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: PHLwok
Posted 2012-11-06 12:36:08 and read 2633 times.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 17):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*US PHL-BOS FEB 16>18 MAR 15>17 APR 15>18 MAY 15>18 JUN 15>17 JUL 15>18

18 daily flights?!?!? And WN couldn't even make 2-3 flights a day work?? Is this a route B6 would/should look at entering?

US has run literally everyone else off this route. B6 might like to serve it, but probably just views it as a money pit.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 23):
That is exactly the reason why WN couldn't make it work - US had the FF base and frequency. With a flight ever hour, it was great for customer. PHL-BOS might as well be considered a "shuttle route"

With the Shuttle brand already in BOS, I've often wondered if it were worth extending it to this service. It is shuttle like, and like the LGA-BOS piece of the shuttle operation in recent years, has been dominated by the E90.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-11-06 13:06:32 and read 2750 times.

I don't get UA cutting ORD-YVR from 4 to 3 roundtrips in April. That's a bit ahead of the start of the Alaska cruise ship season. Unless it's a seasonal cut from the ski season at nearby Whistler.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2012-11-06 14:24:38 and read 2741 times.

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 26):
B6 might like to serve it, but probably just views it as a money pit

B6 should probably venture to PHL though via Florida routes: PHL-FLL since WN is downsizing, PHL-SRQ (not flown by US), PHL-PBI (disappearing from WN metal), and PHL-MCO, which had 3 carriers prior to WN buying FL, and maybe PHL-TPA instead of SRQ or with it. B6 is strong at all these Florida cities.

I also think it could be complemented with an ABE and ACY effort, with ABE-MCO (bye F9), ABE-FLL and maybe it could do 2x daily on ABE-BOS and 3x daily on ACY-BOS.

If fund cuts affect the Amtrak Keystone line making Harrisburg to NYC frequencies poor, B6 could open at MDT with MDT-JFK and MDT-Florida as well. MDT-BOS is flown already by US.

It should be noted that FL does CAK-BOS as an alternate airport into BOS strategy. Rather than it ending, WN route management is increasing it to 2x daily from 1x daily, with a departure added arriving at BOS in the AM. Perhaps it's experimental, but it makes me think it's given a shot that WN converts it over. It makes more sense as a B6 route and I don't know why the same approach for increasing BOS couldn't or hasn't been done by B6.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: CIDFlyer
Posted 2012-11-06 15:18:25 and read 2710 times.

Cant believe no one has commented yet on DFW-FAR. Good for AA, and good for FAR to gain access to a warm weather/southern hub.

[Edited 2012-11-06 15:18:59]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-06 15:46:25 and read 2685 times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 21):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
but I'm assuming someone in PIT is subsidizing a lot of it.

Only the paying customers.

Well that's at least decent news. If the subsidy ended then the entire population who is purchasing tickets is able to support whatever amount of flights that the 75 can do.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 25):
Yes I believe so but not required IWO (Iwojima) is 1/2 way between NRT and SPN so it has been flown on non-etops in the past

I see, that makes sense. I wonder what that flight is like; it's likely an O&D route because many Japanese go to SPN for vacay in the summer

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: steeler83
Posted 2012-11-06 15:48:44 and read 2687 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):
I do believe it was.

I do believe it was subsidized for only a part of 2011. After the subsidy expired, they upped the service to daily until it was discontinued in September or October. Regarding the subsidies, they were in place from June 2009 thru June 2011. Since then, they collected zero subsidies to keep PIT-CDG in the air. Actually, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but did they use any subsidy money from Allegheny County and Pennsylvania for the 2nd year? I know they used all of it the first year.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: kcrwflyer
Posted 2012-11-06 15:55:55 and read 2734 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
Pulling down a route in the one season it makes money? It's definitely not a *good* sign.

PIT-CDG makes money? Ever!?

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 28):
It should be noted that FL does CAK-BOS as an alternate airport into BOS strategy. Rather than it ending, WN route management is increasing it to 2x daily from 1x daily, with a departure added arriving at BOS in the AM. Perhaps it's experimental, but it makes me think it's given a shot that WN converts it over. It makes more sense as a B6 route and I don't know why the same approach for increasing BOS couldn't or hasn't been done by B6.

That route's been 2x daily in the past, I'm pretty sure.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 28):
If fund cuts affect the Amtrak Keystone line making Harrisburg to NYC frequencies poor, B6 could open at MDT with MDT-JFK and MDT-Florida as well. MDT-BOS is flown already by US.

I can't imagine MDT having the traffic to make JFK work, but who knows with some low fares. That's only 160sm by air and they should be able to make fares to New York extremely affordable. I'm sure all of the Florida stuff could work, but B6 doesn't seem to have any faith at all in small or even mid sized markets outside of the extreme northeast US.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: PITrules
Posted 2012-11-06 16:20:12 and read 2703 times.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 31):
Actually, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but did they use any subsidy money from Allegheny County and Pennsylvania for the 2nd year? I know they used all of it the first year.

Unlike the first year in which both the public and private portions of the subsidy were exhausted, the second year of the two year program didn't use any public funds at all and only took a portion of the private half of the program. The private portion of the subsidy program consisted of a coalition of corporations, and the amount they actually did dip into for 2010 was never made public.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 32):
PIT-CDG makes money? Ever!?

???

If you have any info at all related to revenue and/or profit/loss on this flight I'd love to know.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: kcrwflyer
Posted 2012-11-06 16:31:19 and read 2697 times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 33):
If you have any info at all related to revenue and/or profit/loss on this flight I'd love to know.

I don't. I was asking. I would be thoroughly impressed by the business community in PIT if this route has been profitable.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: steeler83
Posted 2012-11-06 19:30:42 and read 2671 times.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 34):

I don't. I was asking. I would be thoroughly impressed by the business community in PIT if this route has been profitable.

This route must have done something for DL that they liked. Otherwise, they would not have restarted the route even if on a seasonal 4-5x weekly basis...

PIT has a lot of European travel demand among business travelers. Sure, it's not exacly enough that airlines would be kicking in the doors to jump on, but it is there. I've said this before and I'll say it again. If the PIT region is smart, they'll use this service to target France-based companies to either expand or establish a presence in the greater PIT area. Right now, there's a ton of travel demand for Germany. Folks travel to CDG and likely connect to a flight to FRA, especially if they're high-up execs for Bayer USA.

I've looked at bookings for these particular flights in previous months, and it looked strong...

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: PHLwok
Posted 2012-11-06 22:00:27 and read 2637 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 28):
B6 should probably venture to PHL though via Florida routes: PHL-FLL since WN is downsizing, PHL-SRQ (not flown by US), PHL-PBI (disappearing from WN metal), and PHL-MCO, which had 3 carriers prior to WN buying FL, and maybe PHL-TPA instead of SRQ or with it. B6 is strong at all these Florida cities.

There will be a race to the bottom on yields on all those routes, though. They're not obvious money makers and US would likely stiffly flight them.

Not sure what amount of traffic goes PHL-SRQ even at peak season, but even then US only puts several CR9s on CLT-SRQ and a daily E70 from DCA, while it puts much greater capacity into TPA. While some SRQ nonstops from PHL would be handy for me with a client in the area, I tend to doubt US sees enough opportunity there. Unless they're not getting that based on price, I'm not convinced there's a lot of untapped demand for B6 there either.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 28):
I also think it could be complemented with an ABE and ACY effort, with ABE-MCO (bye F9), ABE-FLL and maybe it could do 2x daily on ABE-BOS and 3x daily on ACY-BOS.

I don't have a sense for demand for potential B6 travel out of ABE or ACY, but those of us in the Philly area don't generally view either as real alternates for PHL at this point, both due to location, and of course the dearth of service there. WN seemed not to either by opening PHL instead.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 28):
If fund cuts affect the Amtrak Keystone line making Harrisburg to NYC frequencies poor, B6 could open at MDT with MDT-JFK and MDT-Florida as well. MDT-BOS is flown already by US.

I think the Keystone will get funding - it not only provides a quick way to NYC for this region but also provides a good amount of commuter traffic from Dauphin, Lancaster and western Chester counties to Center City Philly supplementing SEPTA's busy Paoli/Thorndale service, and this helps Pennsylvania tax revenues. A good amount of folks get off at 30th Street Station in Philly, and much of the crowd that's on the train when it gets to NY Penn got on in Philly or points in between. Funding issues may well increase fares, though, and they went up slightly a few weeks ago.

I wouldn't generally want to even entertain flying MDT-JFK/LGA/EWR, and particularly not Harrisburg-Manhattan via JFK with that oft-painful backtrack, unless I really had no other choice. In the absence of rail, driving would be better unless going to Long Island.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: AirAfreak
Posted 2012-11-06 23:03:47 and read 2647 times.

After one flight in AA Economy DFW-ICN, I don't see why KE cannot win the majority DFW-ICN to support the daily flight.

And for UA to drop EWR-AVL is a bit of a surprise considering AVL is a higher-yielding airport - especially when you compare AVL to GSP.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: AVLAirlineFreq
Posted 2012-11-07 04:31:58 and read 2623 times.

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 37):
And for UA to drop EWR-AVL is a bit of a surprise considering AVL is a higher-yielding airport - especially when you compare AVL to GSP.

Disappointed. UA has now dropped both IAH and EWR from AVL since the merger, leaving only ORD.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2012-11-07 05:40:48 and read 2608 times.

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 38):
Disappointed. UA has now dropped both IAH and EWR from AVL since the merger, leaving only ORD.

EWR-AVL is not permenantly cut. They are delaying the start due to resume seasonal service. The route does not operate Jan-April.

Note the report only shows a change for April, so they pushed back the start date a few weeks. The nonstop is back in May.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-07 06:11:04 and read 2618 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
It does not seem to be that high demand of a route though, but I'm assuming someone in PIT is subsidizing a lot of it.
Quoting panamair (Reply 15):
Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Maybe it was 5/week last year, don't remember, but it isn't going to be daily this Summer.
I know you have a flair for DRAMA
Quoting panamair (Reply 16):
Yes, you're right, my mistake then - sorry about that.
Quoting PITrules (Reply 21):
At the same time, I believe it will run 5x weekly for a longer stretch than it has this year.

So I "have a flair for DRAMA", but I was right???

Since you are going for zero out of three, let me mention regarding your third baseless supposition that the "5x weekly for a longer stretch" by saying that there is no month through August 2013 where PIT-CDG shows any more operations than in 2012 based on the current published schedule. Maybe a tiny bit of research is in order before making these comments?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: AVLAirlineFreq
Posted 2012-11-07 06:22:55 and read 2598 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 39):
EWR-AVL is not permenantly cut. They are delaying the start due to resume seasonal service. The route does not operate Jan-April.

Note the report only shows a change for April, so they pushed back the start date a few weeks. The nonstop is back in May.

Thanks. Serves me right for not checking!

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: PITrules
Posted 2012-11-07 08:19:18 and read 2581 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
Since you are going for zero out of three, let me mention regarding your third baseless supposition that the "5x weekly for a longer stretch" by saying that there is no month through August 2013 where PIT-CDG shows any more operations than in 2012 based on the current published schedule. Maybe a tiny bit of research is in order before making these comments?

If you want to make an issue about it, both Sept and Oct 2013 are showing 5x weekly, where it was 4x weekly this year. So yes "5x weekly for a longer stretch" is correct, and is verified here as well:
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...-paris-flight-another-year-655684/

So consider it "researched". No need to get snotty about it.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-07 08:20:26 and read 2590 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):

I wasn't calling you a drama king, I was simply saying that something is keeping this route afloat, even if it is drawn back a little more.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2012-11-07 22:05:26 and read 2553 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL LGA-CLE JAN 5>4

In a three-way competition, I expected AA to be the one to drop a flight first, although this DL drop apparently returns in February. At almost $1,000 a seat for a 364 nm flight, I guess there is money to be made.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: smoot4208
Posted 2012-11-07 23:20:48 and read 2536 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AS LAX-LAP MAR 0.4>0.2 APR 0.4>0.0 MAY 0.4>0 JUN 0.4>0 JUL 0.5>0

Wonder if it's going seasonal or just ending all together?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-08 00:01:38 and read 2538 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
I think there has to be an equilibrium. DFW-ICN can support 10x weekly, but I dont know about daily.

But you'd agree it's one airline serving daily and one serving 3 days per week, right? Not each serving 5 days per week?

And if one is serving 3 days per week with reduced yields, that airline probably says, "Not worth it," no?

Quoting ckfred (Reply 27):
I don't get UA cutting ORD-YVR from 4 to 3 roundtrips in April. That's a bit ahead of the start of the Alaska cruise ship season. Unless it's a seasonal cut from the ski season at nearby Whistler.

Maybe you don't get it because you have never worked in network planning for an airline? I highly doubt much time was wasted considering either one of the two reasons. "Oh, Jim, are you sure you want to cut a frequency a couple of weeks before the Alaska cruise ship season. Ah, Bob, this cut is really related to the ski season at nearby Whistler."

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 35):
PIT has a lot of European travel demand among business travelers.

More than Cincinnati. (Not being sarcastic, I would agree with your comment, and that is the reason why DL is giving the route a try.)

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 35):
If the PIT region is smart, they'll use this service to target France-based companies to either expand or establish a presence in the greater PIT area.

Overly simplistic argument. So Pittsburgh should send trade delegations to Paris that advertise, "Come to Pittsburgh! We have a nonstop flight to Paris that operates on most days, most months of the year!"

And the response probably is (although it's never stated explicitly), "If that's the business case, I have more than 1 nonstop a day, every month a year, to plenty of cities."

Or stay close to home and visit the (many?!) Pittsburgh companies that have operations in France and say, "Expand! We have a nonstop flight to Paris that operates on most days, most months of the year!"

And the response probably is (although it's never stated explicitly), "If you think I'm expanding production because I don't have to connect in Philadelphia, Washington, or New York, well, God help us, you don't get what really matters to my business's success (BTW, it sure as hell isn't a nonstop flight to Paris that operates on most days, most months of the year), and I hope you'd spend money on something that really matters."

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 37):
After one flight in AA Economy DFW-ICN, I don't see why KE cannot win the majority DFW-ICN to support the daily flight.

My longest flight on record was IAD-ICN in a middle seat on a KE 744 while in grad school in 2004. I have distinct memories of the boarding process being complete misery, but no recollection of being uncomfortable whatsoever on the plane for 15 hours.

Unfortunately, I think KE is gone from DFW.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-08 07:08:57 and read 2530 times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 42):
If you want to make an issue about it, both Sept and Oct 2013 are showing 5x weekly,

The SEP/OCT 2013 schedules are far from final. They are just now tweaking early Summer.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: steeler83
Posted 2012-11-09 08:04:01 and read 2510 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 46):
Overly simplistic argument. So Pittsburgh should send trade delegations to Paris that advertise, "Come to Pittsburgh! We have a nonstop flight to Paris that operates on most days, most months of the year!"

And the response probably is (although it's never stated explicitly), "If that's the business case, I have more than 1 nonstop a day, every month a year, to plenty of cities."

Or stay close to home and visit the (many?!) Pittsburgh companies that have operations in France and say, "Expand! We have a nonstop flight to Paris that operates on most days, most months of the year!"

And the response probably is (although it's never stated explicitly), "If you think I'm expanding production because I don't have to connect in Philadelphia, Washington, or New York, well, God help us, you don't get what really matters to my business's success (BTW, it sure as hell isn't a nonstop flight to Paris that operates on most days, most months of the year), and I hope you'd spend money on something that really matters."

The idea is to do something to retain the PIT-CDG service if not get it to go daily year-round. Do you have a better idea than mine? The companies that PIT does have that send employees (namely the Bayer executives traveling between PIT and FRA) to Europe regularly are bickering that their particular airport isn't directly served. If not enough people make use of the CDG flights they do have, then DL will pull them...

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-09 09:11:57 and read 2504 times.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 48):
Do you have a better idea than mine? The companies that PIT does have that send employees (namely the Bayer executives traveling between PIT and FRA) to Europe regularly are bickering that their particular airport isn't directly served. If not enough people make use of the CDG flights they do have, then DL will pull them...

Yes.

The strategy you argued for, i.e., to try to get Pittsburgh-based companies with operations in France to expand and vice-versa, is, in my opinion, a weak one, especially if one is concerned with near-term route performance, as it is an argument for expanding the size of the local market, over which ACAA has little, if any, control, for the reasons I tried to outline in my original post.

Here's a better short-term strategy. The market is big enough (not PIT-CDG alone, but PIT-CDG-beyond), so ACAA's (or local business leaders) best efforts to make sure those flying PIT-Europe today are using the PIT-CDG flight to get there, and if they're not, why, and if and how that behavior can be changed.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-11-09 09:33:29 and read 2505 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL ATL-BOG JUN 1.0>1.8 JUL 1.0>2

This is due to openskies, correct. And I do remember ATL-BOG going to a 757 this year. I'm guessing since it's going to be 2x daily now, at least for a portion of the year, we won't a a 57 down there anymore.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
What a/c does this one fly on? An intra-asia 757? Are these ETOPS?

The orinigal interport 757s (75Js) returned to the US some time back. Only 2 are ETOPS certified. The 75As (original NW international 757s configured 16J 150Y) went to Asia and now serve as the interport 757s.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: United_fan
Posted 2012-11-09 09:49:27 and read 2499 times.

Well,DL is now putting the A319 into ROC from ATL on flight # 1111 . Replacing the MD88 . Not usual for DL to fly the A319 here.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: izbtmnhd
Posted 2012-11-10 07:44:47 and read 2482 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 49):

I think there's an opposite angle as well. When the PIT-CDG flight was being subsidized there were billboards on I-70 East between Columbus and Wheeling advertising the service. Also, the flight was advertised on Ohio.com (the Akron Beacon Journal) and Cleveland.com. I don't know if the flight is being advertised regionally anymore but it seems to me that it would be logical to look beyond Pittsburgh to keep a flight like this afloat with the almost complete lack of TATL service in Ohio.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-10 08:03:55 and read 2481 times.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 52):
I think there's an opposite angle as well. When the PIT-CDG flight was being subsidized there were billboards on I-70 East between Columbus and Wheeling advertising the service. Also, the flight was advertised on Ohio.com (the Akron Beacon Journal) and Cleveland.com. I don't know if the flight is being advertised regionally anymore but it seems to me that it would be logical to look beyond Pittsburgh to keep a flight like this afloat with the almost complete lack of TATL service in Ohio.

If I were ACAA (or whatever organization was paying the ad money), I'm not sure I'd waste money on this. The only group of people in any number that might (key word: MIGHT) find this flight attractive would be people in Columbus and Cleveland who want to go to Paris and are willing to drive 3 hours for the convenience of a nonstop flight.

Otherwise they're probably happy (or should we say "happy enough") connecting at DTW, IAD, ORD, EWR, or JFK for flights to most of the large European destinations (and probably pay a lower fare). And when they arrive after an 8 hour transatlantic journey, they don't have a 3-hour return drive ahead of them. (Not to mention the number of people who fall into this bucket that would even consider doing it in the first place may be 10 PPDEW tops, and that's probably generous.)

I can't believe that this type of advertising (like the "Leave CVG BehIND" nonsense) is very effective. Sure Cincinnattians fly out of IND, but I doubt many more people are because of the marketing campaign. Granted, it's very VISIBLE, which I think makes people think on here that it is highly effective, but I don't think it's a winning strategy.

As I said, the size of the PIT-Europe market is more than enough to fill up a 757. The best efforts would be spent on figuring out why probably around 50% of that market is still going via other hubs. If it's largely because of fares, not much ACAA can do, except I guess ask Delta to lower them, but I don't think that's a winning strategy.

[Edited 2012-11-10 08:04:54]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/9/2012: AA/AS/DL/F9/UA/US
Username: Coronado
Posted 2012-11-11 09:41:32 and read 2452 times.

With fuel where it is currently , if PIT-CDG is not profitable in a 757 it is tough to argue that Delta should be serving this route daily barring a sufficient subsidy from metro Pittsburgh. They, meaning DL, do have 3 daily 2 class non stop flights from PIT to JFK that seem to work well with the great many non stop flights on DL and its SkyTeam partners from JFK to beyond points in Europe. If the CDG terminal reorganization improves the facility, to actually permit hassle free connections in Paris, this may stimulate demand for additional frequencies or a longer summer season of flights from non hub airports such as PIT to CDG. I think experience over coming months by business passengers with an improved CDG connections experience will play a large role in prolonging such significant cities n/s service to CDG, as long as oil does not spike (again).


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