Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5607931/

Topic: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: WN787
Posted 2012-11-10 16:42:14 and read 1696 times.

I just heard a report that a plane slid off the runway at DEN. This is according to 9 news. Can't find anything on it right now. Does anyone have any info?

[Edited 2012-11-10 17:13:34]

Topic: RE: Plane Off Runway At DEN
Username: kingcavalier
Posted 2012-11-10 17:10:03 and read 1717 times.

Hear it's WN. Slid off 35L.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Runway At DEN
Username: WN787
Posted 2012-11-10 17:11:20 and read 1722 times.

http://www.9news.com/news/article/29...339/Plane-slides-off-runway-at-DIA

Just posted on 9news

Topic: RE: Plane Off Runway At DEN
Username: nzblue
Posted 2012-11-10 17:12:21 and read 1716 times.

9News is now reporting: "A Southwest Airlines passenger plane slid off the taxiway at DIA Saturday afternoon. Flight #1905 was traveling from Oakland to Denver."

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-10 17:15:07 and read 1723 times.

LOL!!!!

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 1):
Hear it's WN. Slid off 35L.

It is WN. But according to 7News, it was on a taxiway.

Source with pics: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...es-off-runway-at-dia-after-landing

Seems like WN can't get a break here in DEN. Something tells me that they may have been taxiing too fast. They really need to slow the hell down in this weather. There is a winter advisory here in the Front Range area.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: WN787
Posted 2012-11-10 17:15:35 and read 1707 times.

No injuries reported at the moment. Sorry for my original post when I said runway. Jumped the gun there.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: nzblue
Posted 2012-11-10 17:16:56 and read 1715 times.

Taken from thedenverchannel.com

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: AA94
Posted 2012-11-10 17:18:50 and read 1728 times.

Twitter user @mrbuddylee posted some photos of the plane off the runway - he claims to have been onboard.

http://pic.twitter.com/a1gjlBdO

http://pic.twitter.com/gIPcgRvt

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: WN787
Posted 2012-11-10 17:22:26 and read 1714 times.

Looks like the main gear collapsed and a partial nose gear collapse

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-10 17:24:53 and read 1711 times.

Quoting WN787 (Reply 9):
Looks like the main gear collapsed and a partial nose gear collapse

Source?

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: Spacepope
Posted 2012-11-10 17:25:37 and read 1705 times.

Strange. Not a hint of snow down here at COS.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: WN787
Posted 2012-11-10 17:26:13 and read 1709 times.

Trying to confirm. The twitter photos don't show what I said so I'm probably mistaken

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: HiFlyerAS
Posted 2012-11-10 17:30:27 and read 1716 times.

WN pilots are renowned for taxi-ing too fast. They probably don't know how to drive their car in snow either.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2012-11-10 17:43:39 and read 1710 times.

Quoting WN787 (Reply 9):
Looks like the main gear collapsed and a partial nose gear collapse

Could this be a result of the plane going into the grass, or is it the reason that the plane slid into the grass?

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-11-10 17:48:46 and read 1713 times.

From the looks of the first twitter picture:

Quoting AA94 (Reply 8):

http://pic.twitter.com/a1gjlBdO

The #1 engine cowl is resting on the ground. This does not look like a simple "oops, I taxied off the taxiway."

However, the second picture looks like the wing is at a normal height off the ground.

That said, both photos are pretty poor, so it's hard to tell much.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: WN787
Posted 2012-11-10 17:49:19 and read 1712 times.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...es-off-runway-at-dia-after-landing

Pax report "the jet had just landed and was turning onto a taxiway when it hit a patch of ice and two of the three landing gears went off the pavement."

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-11-10 17:56:24 and read 1713 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
The #1 engine cowl is resting on the ground.

Looks like one of the news outlets won the bidding for exclusive rights to the pictures. Link no longer works.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: stasisLAX
Posted 2012-11-10 18:02:28 and read 1709 times.

Per Denver Post website (just updated a moment ago) - there is NO confirmed condition regarding the aircraft. All passengers were successfully bussed from the airfield to the terminal.

Source: http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...ay-at-denver-international-airport

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: aamd11
Posted 2012-11-10 18:14:23 and read 1712 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 17):
Looks like one of the news outlets won the bidding for exclusive rights to the pictures. Link no longer works.

Just an error with the HTML formatting that came with the link... try this:

http://t.co/a1gjlBdO

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: wingnutmn
Posted 2012-11-10 18:20:56 and read 1711 times.

Quoting WN787 (Reply 9):

I would guess that they just slid off into soft wet ground, not a collapse but the wheels are now completely buried in mud. In the first pic it looks like the engine is not touching the ground.

Wingnut

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: lasairlinerenth
Posted 2012-11-10 18:36:11 and read 1705 times.

Not sure of its accuracy, of course, but this news report from MSN.com claims the WN jet was turning off of 35R after landing at DIA onto a high-speed taxiway; that might account for something as to why this event happened: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...nver?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=3

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: F9Fan
Posted 2012-11-10 19:38:08 and read 2245 times.

WN posted the following on Facebook

Quote:
OFFICIAL STATEMENT REGARDING FLIGHT #1905:

Southwest Airlines Flight #1905 from Oakland landed safely at Denver International Airport this afternoon at approximately 5:00 p.m., Mountain Time. While taxiing to the terminal, the nosewheel of the aircraft departed the taxiway. There were 125 Customers and five crew members onboard, all of whom were deplaned and bussed back to the terminal. No injuries have been reported. Weather.com reported blowing, snowy conditions in Denver this evening. We are working with those Customers who were connecting to other cities and reaccommodating them as quickly as possible.


[Edited 2012-11-10 19:48:59]

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: ATCtower
Posted 2012-11-10 20:21:39 and read 2155 times.

And WN buys us all pizza and beer to ensure they get to their destination the fastest.

Sorry but until the NTSB says otherwise, I have no reason to believe the crew of this WN or any WN taxi any A/C faster than a safe speed given conditions. Do they on average taxi faster than other carriers, some do, sure. WN crew is also not paid by the minute as some of the other carriers I would expect to go balls to the wall or lag back.

Things happen and wx plays a role in a lot of A/C movements including touchdown and taxi. WN has an mu checklist the same as every other carrier and it should not be assumed they exceeded it.

My $.02

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: FlyDeltaJets
Posted 2012-11-10 20:56:25 and read 2107 times.

First and foremost I would like to say that I am greatly relieved to hear that no one was injured today. With that said I don't think that every single Southwest flight deck crew does things that in my opinion would be a little dangerous, but I would say there are many that do. I worked the last year on the ramp at BDL and between the Southwest ground crew and the flight deck crew there were things done with airplanes that I rarely have seen done before. I have personally witnesses WN planes cut off other planes whether taxing into the gate or the ground crew pushing out to try and beat a nearby gate to the start-up line. So no I have not seen not even close to most of Southwest planes being moved but I can say in comparison to the other airlines even at the same airport they definitely seem to have a different attitude towards safety.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: SXDFC
Posted 2012-11-10 21:05:53 and read 2080 times.

Do we even know the full story yet of how the plane ended up off the taxiway? NO.. Unless there is actual proof ( news report, witness account, etc ) then saying that WN pilots taxi fast is nothing but speculation.. WN isn't the first airline to end up on the side of a taxiway..

[Edited 2012-11-10 21:06:50]

Does anyone know what "Tail/ Nose Number" was involved in this incident? I am pretty sure its was a -700..


[Edited 2012-11-10 21:08:05]

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-11-10 21:21:50 and read 2304 times.

Plane off the pavement stuck in the snow? Call Patroni at Lincoln Intl and have a box of cigars at the ready.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: iowaman
Posted 2012-11-10 21:51:42 and read 2271 times.

Woah, you all need to be patient. The report will be out from the NTSB eventually with factual events. No one even got injured and I can recall other airlines sliding off taxiways as well besides Southwest:

DL Incident At DTW, Plane Skids Off Taxiway (by PSU.DTW.SCE Jan 29 2012 in Civil Aviation)
Aircraft Slides Off Taxiway In IND (by Allstarflyer Dec 17 2008 in Civil Aviation)
UA 747 Runs Off Taxiway At Melbourne Airport (by ADG Mar 7 2003 in Civil Aviation)
FL Flight Off Taxiway At GRR (by CaptSkibi Feb 10 2012 in Civil Aviation)
Allegiant Off Taxiway At YNG (Lake Effect Snow) (by YNGguins Jan 2 2012 in Civil Aviation)
ASA Plane Off Taxiway In TUL (by comairguycvg Aug 19 2011 in Civil Aviation)

Doesnt sound like a big deal to me. Appears to be a -700 but this is uncomfirmed I believe:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/S...5/history/20121110/2140Z/KOAK/KDEN

The Denver post is confirming no snow accumulation at DEN today on paved surfaces, but no mention of ice. This is what we know is factual as of now, unless someone else can provide a source of more information as it comes.

Quoting F9Fan (Reply 30):
WN posted the following on Facebook

Quote:OFFICIAL STATEMENT REGARDING FLIGHT #1905:

Southwest Airlines Flight #1905 from Oakland landed safely at Denver International Airport this afternoon at approximately 5:00 p.m., Mountain Time. While taxiing to the terminal, the nosewheel of the aircraft departed the taxiway. There were 125 Customers and five crew members onboard, all of whom were deplaned and bussed back to the terminal. No injuries have been reported. Weather.com reported blowing, snowy conditions in Denver this evening. We are working with those Customers who were connecting to other cities and reaccommodating them as quickly as possible.


[Edited 2012-11-10 22:04:10]

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-10 22:30:57 and read 2588 times.

I apologize if I have offended the WN folks here. I thought this was A.net, the last time I checked. I had no idea that speculation was forbidden in the rules and I am not allowed to an opinion. I guess I was truly mistaken, and for that I apologize.

My bad totally. I'll go back to the F9 threads and leave you guys in peace.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: WN787
Posted 2012-11-10 22:33:29 and read 2497 times.

I had no idea an accident would spark a bash event on WN.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: mtnwest1979
Posted 2012-11-10 22:55:35 and read 2527 times.

OK if you look at the one photo out the window looking out onto the taxiway and the arff folks, you can see that the taxiway that they were trying to turn onto was ED, which is at the N end of 35R. That is a 90 degree turn and not a high speed taxiway that is located prior to taxiway ED. Just look at DEN layout to see what I mean. At least that is what I see. As for final cause? Don't know and we'll see. Have a nice day.

[Edited 2012-11-10 22:58:10]

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-11-11 05:57:47 and read 2452 times.

Quoting WN787 (Reply 56):
I had no idea an accident would spark a bash event on WN.

Every incident sparks a bash event on this forum. It's nothing personal about the people or the airline - just A.net SOP.

As far as this incident - if the plane was turning off on a high speed taxiway - that has nothing to do with airline taxi practices. It is a pilots' decision, often encouraged by ATC, to clear the runway as quickly as possible.

While no snow accumulation was reported, we all know patches of snow or ice can happen and cause unexpected problems. The airplane could have hit a patch of ice as small as a couple feet and it would be enough to start a skid.

Even if it was not a high speed taxiway, the same thing could happen during a 90 degree turn.

Either way - everyone was safe. The airline made arrangements for the passengers and the replacement aircraft was able to takeoff and continue the flight in less than three hours.

Very good, efficient dealing with a problem by the airline.

Much better than another thread about passengers being stranded yesterday.

BTW - I assume the plane was removed and the taxiway/ runway cleared and back in operation last night. Can anyone confirm?

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: AustrianSimon
Posted 2012-11-11 06:57:59 and read 2481 times.

Aircraft N287WN slid off the high speed turn off, didn't make the turn along the high speed exit after vacating runway 35R. Runway 35R was not affected at all, one departure was delayed by two minutes until emergency services had reached the aircraft, but then runway 35R was used without restriction again.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2012-11-11 07:04:58 and read 2395 times.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 27):
I have personally witnesses WN planes cut off other planes whether taxing into the gate or the ground crew pushing out to try and beat a nearby gate to the start-up line.

And I always thought the tower had to give them clearance for movement... Boy was I wrong.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: mcdu
Posted 2012-11-11 08:49:32 and read 2309 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 36):
And I always thought the tower had to give them clearance for movement... Boy was I wrong.

Many of these areas ramp areas are non-atc controlled. The crew will only call ATC when at an exit point and will be free of atc at the entry point. I too have witnessed WN over the years taxiing in front of a/c that were pushed back and doing things that many would consider hazardous at a minimum and unsafe in many aspects.

This incident however took place on a ATC controlled surface. The High Speed taxiways on 35R at DEN do have some slope to them. Have used those same taxiways in situations similar to last night. Slower is better on P7 and the junction of ED. The ED has a significant slope upward from East to West. However, with all of the movements at DEN in all of the WX conditions that have existed at the airport it is WN that finds the grass.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 30):
Woah, you all need to be patient. The report will be out from the NTSB eventually with factual events. No one even got injured and I can recall other airlines sliding off taxiways as well besides Southwest:

Every airline has had incidents of aircraft departing the hard surface, however WN has had some high profile incidents of excessive speed and SOP compliance.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1455
"At 1810:24 the ground proximity warning system (GPWS) began to sound a "sink rate" warning in the cockpit. The aircraft was descending at an angle of 7 degrees, when the angle of descent for most aircraft landing on that runway was 3 or 4 degrees. Both pilots ignored the warnings. At 1810:44 the warning system in the cockpit began to sound. The captain responded to these warnings with "that's all right."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1248

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...y-runway-accident-so_n_854055.html

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-11-11 09:13:38 and read 2305 times.

News teams have been working on a story about WN taxi speeds!

I have been out all morning with a news team! We have verified that WN taxi speeds are much higher than other airlines. They have another team in LAS and PHX doing the same. This ought to be an interesting story!

[Edited 2012-11-11 09:44:23 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: SXDFC
Posted 2012-11-11 09:19:22 and read 2263 times.

Does anyone know how much damage occurred to A/C 287?

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-11-11 09:27:38 and read 2292 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 31):
can almost guarantee it was a high speed turn off the runway. If that is the case, it might have been better to wait until they got to a slower speed and taken the next taxi way to avoid sliding off. UA and F9 seem to handle the weather conditions just fine.

With 1.1M arrivals a year nationally, and 58,000 arrivals a year at DEN alone, WN doesn't seem to be having any abnormal amount of issues relative to UA, F9, or anyone else.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 39):
I have been out all morning with a news team! We have verified that WN taxi speeds are much higher than other airlines. They have another team in LAS and PHX doing the same. This ought to be an interesting story!

Wow.....And this has what to do with this incident exactly?

-Dave

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2012-11-11 09:31:06 and read 2262 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 41):
Quoting F9animal (Reply 39):
I have been out all morning with a news team! We have verified that WN taxi speeds are much higher than other airlines. They have another team in LAS and PHX doing the same. This ought to be an interesting story!

Wow.....And this has what to do with this incident exactly?

Exactly.

They must be reading this thread for inspiration.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: northwestair
Posted 2012-11-11 09:51:18 and read 2225 times.

It will be interesting to read the final report over this incident. Until then we should take anything the news media says with a grain a salt.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-11 11:21:38 and read 2192 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 33):
however WN has had some high profile incidents of excessive speed and SOP compliance.

What carrier hasn't? UA (CO) had a completely preventable runway excursion at the very same airport a few years ago. AA has had a couple (JAC and KIN) along with any number of pilot error crashes and near misses (AA 587 at JFK, M83 in to the trees at BDL in 2001 or 2002, etc.). Is there some evidence that WN has more of these per capita than any other carrier?

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2012-11-11 11:47:13 and read 2166 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 39):
Is there some evidence that WN has more of these per capita than any other carrier?

given that WN has more than 500 planes making 3-4 flights a day... I'd say WN has as close to perfect safety rating as one can expect. Someone would have to run the numbers, but I'd put money on you are more likely to be killed by a bear inside your own home than by a WN safety issue.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: mtnwest1979
Posted 2012-11-11 11:52:26 and read 2150 times.

...of course on further thought after I had shut down laptop, I guess they could have been on the high speed and came to its end at ED and just couldn't make the turn left.
As this was noted in an earlier post.

[Edited 2012-11-11 11:57:17]

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: mcdu
Posted 2012-11-11 12:15:36 and read 2149 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 39):
What carrier hasn't? UA (CO) had a completely preventable runway excursion at the very same airport a few years ago. AA has had a couple (JAC and KIN) along with any number of pilot error crashes and near misses (AA 587 at JFK, M83 in to the trees at BDL in 2001 or 2002, etc.). Is there some evidence that WN has more of these per capita than any other carrier?



Some creative posting on your behalf, below is the entire quote. I said EVERY airline has had incidents. WN has had more of the same type of incident reoccurring than the other carriers. Perhaps it is symptom of complacency in flying one aircraft type, many cycles etc. However, we don't see the RJ carriers have the same type of incidents over and over and those crews fly similar legs/schedules to WN.

Just to clarify the CO accident in DEN was before the UA merger so it is NOT an UA crash. The AA incident at BDL was 1995 NOT 2001. If you guys wish to believe that WN doesn't have an issue with taxi speeds and agressive flying then that is fine. You are entitled to your opinion. I know I have sat in a WN jumpseat in 1994 going into BWI that was eye opening on the unstablized approach, ignored GPWS warnings at night and long landing that didn't seem to faze either pilot. It was business as usual. Even had an FAA inspector on my jumpseat several years ago say he was giving route check to a Captain he just happened to know from WN. During the flight the crew operated the airplane with the overspeed clacker going off for extended periods of time. The FO told the inspector the clacker noise was the "Southwest victory song". The inspector said he had a long talk with the Capt when they landed.

The incident from last night will be investigated and eventually we will learn the cause. I happen to have enough local knowledge of DEN to appreciate the difficulty involved on P7 and ED. It is interesting to note that the airplane was routed for an east downwind to 35R and landed behind schedule. WIth the minimum turn times there may have been added pressure for the crew to get to the gate quickly to recover some fo the ground time. From what I could find it was due to arrive at 1638 and actually touched down at 1704. Does anyone have details of the allotted ground time for this flight?

Quoting mcdu (Reply 33):
Every airline has had incidents of aircraft departing the hard surface, however WN has had some high profile incidents of excessive speed and SOP compliance.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-11-11 13:34:57 and read 2135 times.

AA in Chicago
AA in Little Rock
AA in New York
AA in Colombia
AA in Kingston

Remind me not to fly them anymore - clearly their pilots are not as safe as those of safer airlines...like Southwest.

(Maybe I'm misunderstanding - I'm getting the impression that anecdotal evidence is proof enough that a systemic problem exists a a carrier)

-Dave

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: WN787
Posted 2012-11-11 14:59:24 and read 2073 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 33):

Every airline has had incidents of aircraft departing the hard surface, however WN has had some high profile incidents of excessive speed and SOP compliance.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1455
"At 1810:24 the ground proximity warning system (GPWS) began to sound a "sink rate" warning in the cockpit. The aircraft was descending at an angle of 7 degrees, when the angle of descent for most aircraft landing on that runway was 3 or 4 degrees. Both pilots ignored the warnings. At 1810:44 the warning system in the cockpit began to sound. The captain responded to these warnings with "that's all right."

Cause Wiki is the most reliable source. ANYONE can change it!

Quoting F9animal (Reply 34):
We have verified that WN taxi speeds are much higher than other airlines.

Who's we? And how do you know this? At DEN, all areas are controlled by ATC. I think all airlines have there moments of "high speed taxing," although iif this news report comes out and says WN is the only one fast on the aapron, I bet they won't compare WN to all other airlines.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: mariner
Posted 2012-11-11 15:15:08 and read 2060 times.

Quoting WN787 (Reply 44):
Cause Wiki is the most reliable source. ANYONE can change it!

Yes, anyone can change it - but it isn't open slather, they have to answer to a gaggle of experts if they do change anything.

I've made changes on Wiki and have been grilled about them and I have seen the most minute editorial details thrashed out and argued about in the forum where the leading Wiki analysts and editors gather.

If you feel some fact is wrong or it has escaped their attention, you can raise it with Wiki.

mariner

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-11-11 15:16:31 and read 2089 times.

PSA always had takeoffs steeper than any other airline. Western was chronically late. Aeroflot can't tell the difference between a runway and an interstate.

All are statements that reflect my personal experiences. Doesn't make them true.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2012-11-11 16:06:39 and read 2022 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 46):
PSA always had takeoffs steeper than any other airline. Western was chronically late. Aeroflot can't tell the difference between a runway and an interstate.

All are statements that reflect my personal experiences. Doesn't make them true.

Well said. Funny, isn't it? That anecdotal evidence seems to always support one's bias?

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-11-11 16:09:40 and read 2043 times.

Quoting WN787 (Reply 44):
Cause Wiki is the most reliable source. ANYONE can change it!

Okay - how about the exact words from the NTSB Report

Quote:
From 1810:24 until 1810:59, the ground proximity warning system (GPWS) alerts were
being continuously broadcast in the cockpit, first as “sink rate” and then, at 1810:44, switching to
“"whoop, whoop, pull up".” At 1810:29, the captain stated, "“flaps thirty, just put it down.”"

At 1810:33, the captain stated, “"put it to [flaps] forty. [I]t won’t go, I know that. [I]t’s all right.
[F]inal descent checklist.”"

After the GPWS “whoop, whoop, pull up” alert sounded at 1810:47,
the captain stated, "“that’s all right",” at 1810:53.

Is that a good enough source?

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2002/AAB0204.pdf

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-11-11 16:18:59 and read 2035 times.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 47):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 46):PSA always had takeoffs steeper than any other airline. Western was chronically late. Aeroflot can't tell the difference between a runway and an interstate.

All are statements that reflect my personal experiences. Doesn't make them true.
Well said. Funny, isn't it? That anecdotal evidence seems to always support one's bias?

Back when I used to be able to go to the park overlooking the runways at SEA, I would see things that just seemed to repeat themselves. PSA was one example. Their maddogs would seem to aim for the sky at lift-off, while those of AA, AS, and othes were more subtle. But I don't know if that was just my perception or if it reflected something else.

At the same time (period), it did seem that WN had a faster clip to their taxiing. But that was more than 15 years ago. Today, anytime I've witnessed or been on a WN plane, I have seen zero difference between them and anyone else. Again, that might not reflect reality either, but it sure beats going on a witchhunt with the media to prove something that may have little or no real bearing to anything.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: WN787
Posted 2012-11-11 16:44:29 and read 1996 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 48):
Is that a good enough source?

Thank you for the info. And come on, yes the NTSB is a good source. Wiki isn't. Regardless of the "gaggle."

IMO, I still believe this event at DEN, 10 NOV 2012, has no relevance to the report I just read on WN 1455.

Let's see what the NTSB, not Wiki, has to say about this incident, before we attack airlines for taxi speed. And if everyone complains about one airline taxiing too fast, wouldn't you think the FAA, or NTSB, or someone would step in and investigate the issue??

Weather your an FA, FO, Captain, Ramp agent (AWE YEAH) or whatever, your entitled to your own opinions. No one knows what really happened unless you were in the front of the airplane. Even then, if it was black ice that was reported as clear, or no reports existed, then exiting the runway on a high speed taxiway is what everyone would have done.

Seems like I should have titled this thread differently, although my intention was not to start an attack on any airline.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-11-11 17:09:57 and read 1978 times.

Is there an exact maximum ground speed to take this runway exit or would an incident like this simply be the equivalent of "Driving too fast for road conditions", even if there was no clear evidence that the road had ice, and I was driving at or under the posted speed limit?

Just curious.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: Barney Captain
Posted 2012-11-11 17:13:31 and read 1994 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 42):
I have sat in a WN jumpseat in 1994 going into BWI that was eye opening on the unstablized approach, ignored GPWS warnings at night and long landing that didn't seem to faze either pilot. It was business as usual. Even had an FAA inspector on my jumpseat several years ago say he was giving route check to a Captain he just happened to know from WN. During the flight the crew operated the airplane with the overspeed clacker going off for extended periods of time.

While that *may* have occasionally happened at the WN of 18 years ago (I've been here 20 and never saw it) - it certainly isn't the case today. FDAP records everything - and has for the better part of the last decade. In the case of an unstable approach - an independent Gatekeeper will discuss the event with the crew to determine why it happened. In the case of a speed exceedance (mach, flap etc) there will be an automated ACARS notification delivered to the crew upon block-in, notifying them of the exceedance and requiring a logbook write-up. This recently happened to me after a .01 mach over-speed caused by mountain wave.

So your anecdotal reference from 18 years ago is just that - anecdotal, from 18 years ago and not representative of the way we do things today.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-11-11 17:16:41 and read 1987 times.

Quoting WN787 (Reply 50):
IMO, I still believe this event at DEN, 10 NOV 2012, has no relevance to the report I just read on WN 1455.

I agree.

I also agree that WN pilots push the limits while on the ground. They are trying to meet very tight timetables. The fastest taxi I've experienced since Danang was on a WN departure from SDF. The pilot made up 20 minutes of the 45 he was behind schedule on a Gate to Gate SDF-STL leg, and 22 more minutes on STL-MCI.

His speed made up it possible for me to make my connection to DAL and not have to spend another night on the road.

For the record - WN is my favorite airline to use in the US. I do not consider them unsafe, their pilots unsafe, their policies unsafe.

But then again, I don't work on a ramp.

[Edited 2012-11-11 17:21:38]

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-11 18:17:30 and read 1938 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 42):
WN has had more of the same type of incident reoccurring than the other carriers

I'm still not sure what your evidence of this is. If you want to talk about overrun/off pavement incidents, AA would seem to take the cake in that regard - JAC, LIT, KIN, ORD off the top of my head, not to mention AA 587, which was unquestionably pilot error and the near-crash at BDL that you seem to think is ancient history even though it occurred around the same time as your fateful WN jumpseat ride.

Look, we understand that you despise WN. What you have not presented is any factual evidence that WN has a disproportionate number of incidents, accidents or anything else.

How many hull losses does WN have in its history?

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: ytib
Posted 2012-11-11 19:39:57 and read 1928 times.

The FAA and airport will investigate the incident, 9News has reported the NTSB will not investigate.

http://www.9news.com/news/local/arti...y-will-not-be-investigated-by-NTSB

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: ATCtower
Posted 2012-11-11 20:02:23 and read 1946 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 51):
Is there an exact maximum ground speed to take this runway exit or would an incident like this simply be the equivalent of "Driving too fast for road conditions", even if there was no clear evidence that the road had ice, and I was driving at or under the posted speed limit?

Just curious.

Sort of. While DEN has high speed taxiway exits, generally the airlines (on dry pavement) will split the difference between a 'turning' taxi speed and a 'straight taxi' speed. I am not a WN captain and do not want to be quoted but if I am not mistaken their numbers are 15kt and 25kt respectively but that is on DRY ground. The aircraft manufacturer (in this case Boeing) sets limits for wet, snowy, and icy taxi speeds that have been flight checked and tested. The coefficient of friction required and breaking pressure are listed as 'mu' speeds are I have never heard of an airline exceeding exceeding its mu speed by policy.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 54):
Look, we understand that you despise WN. What you have not presented is any factual evidence that WN has a disproportionate number of incidents, accidents or anything else.

This is kind of what I am wanting to see as well. Sorry, but no matter your opinion on any airline, you need to cite a source or proof.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 54):
I'm still not sure what your evidence of this is. If you want to talk about overrun/off pavement incidents, AA would seem to take the cake in that regard - JAC, LIT, KIN, ORD off the top of my head, not to mention AA 587, which was unquestionably pilot error and the near-crash at BDL that you seem to think is ancient history even though it occurred around the same time as your fateful WN jumpseat ride.

I thankfully get to jumpseat fairly regularly and have not noted a single irregularity of any airline when it comes to taxiing. Sure, sometimes shit happens, the industry is not perfect but safety strides are certainly being taken everywhere.

Quoting ytib (Reply 55):
The FAA and airport will investigate the incident, 9News has reported the NTSB will not investigate.

As well they should not. There were no pax injuries, the A/C did not sustain substantial damage, and there is no reason to suspect gross negligence by any member of the flight crew.

My $.02

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: FlyDeltaJets
Posted 2012-11-11 22:49:00 and read 1894 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 32):
And I always thought the tower had to give them clearance for movement... Boy was I wrong.

Tower generally controls only taxiways and runways "movement area". Aprons and ramps are in many cases uncontrolled or have a ramp controller "non-movement area".

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2012-11-11 23:48:49 and read 1896 times.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 57):
Quoting usflyguy (Reply 32):
And I always thought the tower had to give them clearance for movement... Boy was I wrong.

Tower generally controls only taxiways and runways "movement area". Aprons and ramps are in many cases uncontrolled or have a ramp controller "non-movement area".

While it might look like planes are cutting each other off on the ramp areas, there are times when planes are told to wait for a plane to pull in to a gate before they are cleared to begin their taxi. It's still organized out there, while it might look like it's every plane for themselves.

If that makes any sense...

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-11-12 06:22:42 and read 1870 times.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 56):
but if I am not mistaken their numbers are 15kt and 25kt respectively but that is on DRY ground. The aircraft manufacturer (in this case Boeing) sets limits for wet, snowy, and icy taxi speeds that have been flight checked and tested

I would also add - there is no speedometer on aircraft.

Taxi speeds are most often 'measured' by the pilot's experience. In some aircraft the GPS can display a ground speed, and it can be useful such as a small GA prop with a G-1000 MFD. It is very clear and easy to read.

In other aircraft, with FMC computers it can be difficult to use / display where it is useful.

I do not know the PFD/MFD layout used by WN pilots in the B737-700 while on the ground - which this aircraft was.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: 737tanker
Posted 2012-11-12 07:12:21 and read 1878 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 59):
I would also add - there is no speedometer on aircraft.

Taxi speeds are most often 'measured' by the pilot's experience.

In other aircraft, with FMC computers it can be difficult to use / display where it is useful.

I do not know the PFD/MFD layout used by WN pilots in the B737-700 while on the ground - which this aircraft was.


I've been flying for WN for 18 years and we use the groundspeed readout generated by the GPS/IRS, which to me is very easy to see.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: N766UA
Posted 2012-11-12 07:29:52 and read 1866 times.

LOL I love these people. The airplane slips off a taxiway and they're saying they're glad they "survived a plane crash." Yeah, cuz when a plane crashes you have 20 minutes to sit in your seat taking cell phone video, then you take a bus to the terminal. Get real.

And why do people always insist on saying "tarmac?" It's not some country lane in Cornwall; there's absolutely zero tarmacadam at DIA. Someone should tell these people they don't sound initiated, they sound ignorant.

[Edited 2012-11-12 07:32:32]

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: N766UA
Posted 2012-11-12 07:36:07 and read 1853 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 59):
I do not know the PFD/MFD layout used by WN pilots in the B737-700 while on the ground

I believe they get a ground speed readout on their displays which would be perfectly useful for taxiing, as with most if not all 737NGs.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: ATCtower
Posted 2012-11-12 14:35:09 and read 1818 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 59):
I would also add - there is no speedometer on aircraft.

Taxi speeds are most often 'measured' by the pilot's experience. In some aircraft the GPS can display a ground speed, and it can be useful such as a small GA prop with a G-1000 MFD. It is very clear and easy to read.

In other aircraft, with FMC computers it can be difficult to use / display where it is useful.

I do not know the PFD/MFD layout used by WN pilots in the B737-700 while on the ground - which this aircraft was.

You would be adding completely incorrect information.

The left side of the MFD (installed on all WN 737-700 and -800 series) shows airspeed and comes alive at 1kt. While it may not be the most accurate instrument imaginable on the ground it will be within +/- 3kts which is sufficient to use a normal taxi speed and certainly enough Boeing recommends its use when figuring mu speeds. The numbers are as legible and easy to read as possible.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: n92r03
Posted 2012-11-12 14:55:43 and read 1809 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 59):
there is no speedometer on aircraft

According to my Garmin 60CSx, my WN flights have taxied up to 20mph. Other carriers I've flown have usually topped out at 15-17mph. So, while I always thought WN taxied faster, it really isn't by that much.

Yes, apologies to all the cabin crew to which I stashed my GPS in the seat pocket and then made sure to hold it close to the side of the fuselage, concealed of course in a magazine, in order to gather this most important data.

That was years ago, if I was to do it today, I would make sure to hold the GPS up to the window and then take a pic of the screen while showing identifying info in the background (to prove it was WN) and then post it online for the world to see, to finally put a rest to this.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: CM
Posted 2012-11-12 20:09:41 and read 1767 times.

If you slide off a taxiway when you are exiting the runway, you are going too fast. However, I don't think we actually know if the airplane slid. It may be that the pilot simply had an excursion. Barring a NLG steering issue or some other technical issue (unlikely) it seems this one will almost certainly be on the crew.

As for WN getting bashed for skidding one off the taxiway... the airline has more than 1M movements a year. They could go 10:1 with incidents compared to a little carrier like F9 and still have the better safety record. Given who is making the critical remarks here, it seems WN's success makes them a target.

In terms of fatal events per aircraft movement, WN has the lowest accident rate of any major carrier in the world: http://planecrashinfo.com/rates.htm

When safety is measured using ARTA's far more complex "holistic" safety measure, WN ranks 8th safest among the 92 largest airlines world: http://www.atra.aero/

Quoting mcdu (Reply 42):
During the flight the crew operated the airplane with the overspeed clacker going off for extended periods of time.

If you are not precise with your energy management in a 737, it is a very easy aircraft to get overspeed warnings in. That's different than saying it is a very easy aircraft to overspeed.

You would have been on a classic in 1994, and the 737NG is arguably easier to get overspeed warnings in than the classic. What's important to understand is that getting stick shaker from approaching buffet boundary (or flap placcard speeds) does not mean someting "unsafe" has happened. The stick shaker comes on to remind you of an impending problem with your energy state. It comes on in order to prevent the unsafe exceedance from happening. I think many 737 pilots will tell you the buffet boundary margins and associated warnings are overly conservative in the 737, making stick shaker pretty commonplace in the type.

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: 737tdi
Posted 2012-11-12 23:44:27 and read 1737 times.

Some good info. and some not so. You can read your ground speed if the ADIRU/IRS is aligned. It would be with any flight. We, as mechs. are required to align to prevent excessive taxi speed.

You guys that are spouting about excessive speed. Have you ever thought that the tower told them to expedite. Have you ever thought that they were told to hold then expedite, then go like hell.????? None of you know what the hell you are talking about?? Planes are asked to speed up? I was, was taxing an aircraft from gate to CO hanger in DEN and was asked to increase my speed, also happened back the other way. I was doing 20 kts. at the time. Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong. I was there, it happened and .....Not being mean here. Just realize what happens. I am not a pilot, I am a qualified run/taxi dude from Dallas. I got my ass eat so hard in DEN. West/East/Ramp is ridiculous but that is the way they are. Did not realize that???? Get the hell over the fast taxing, SWA pilots do not taxi over 20 knots. I have been in 100 cockpits this year and they just do not.

Sorry to break you guys bubble but they taxi under 20 kts always. Just like I have to and just like they have to. 20

20 knots does look fairly fast I think. Thats the law and the way they taxi. Get over it.

737

Topic: RE: Plane Off Taxiway At DEN
Username: mcdu
Posted 2012-11-13 01:35:14 and read 1742 times.

Quoting CM (Reply 65):
What's important to understand is that getting stick shaker from approaching buffet boundary (or flap placcard speeds) does not mean someting "unsafe" has happened

Sir,


You have not understood what was written. There is a difference between a stick shaker and an over speed clacker. Operating an aircraft with with either warning is unsafe. If you feel flying around with the stick shaker is safe I would like to know what flight you are flying, as I would think it prudent to warn the traveling public plus the FAA and your company.

What I wrote was in regard to the OVERSPEED clacker. It is completely different to the stick shaker and notifies the crew they have exceeded a limitation of the airplane. At a minimum this requires a logbook entry and maintenance inspection at post flight. No normal crew would operate the airplane with the OVERSPEED warning activated as a regular practice.

I am not sure you have an understanding of what takes place on a flight deck. If you are a WN pilot then you have confirmed many of the assertions made by other airline crews. Simultaneous to this thread there is a debate on another pilot forum regarding WN practice of ignoring ATC instructions to give way to other traffic while taxiing


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/