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Topic: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your opinion please?
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2012-11-11 08:56:52 and read 1901 times.

I know most of what we read on here is opinion, but I am curious as to the current state of Delta. Where do they make their money? I ask, because over the past several weeks on this site, I have read that (paraphrasing):
-DL loses a billion dollars a year in NYC
-DL can’t compete with AA & UA in Latin America
-DL loses money in SLC & LAX
-DL has inferior hubs vs. AA & UA (I would argue that UA does have the best hubs in the US)
-DL’s Asian portfolio is inferior to UA’s
-DL's "split-hub" operation in NYC is a mistake
-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

How, then did DL earn $768 million in 3Q? (Net income was $1Billion). Is all this from ATL? Is it all from fees and services? The oil refinery? Codeshares? I really am curious. Living in Chicago, I fly AA & UA more now, but as a former employee of both DL & UA, I tend to want them to do well! (Don’t get me wrong, I do like AA too). It’s difficult sometimes to separate fact from “fanboyism” on this site. Interested in hearing other’s views.

Topic: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your opinion please?
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2012-11-11 09:17:37 and read 1936 times.

Much of what is said on this site is hearsay, plain and simple. DL is doing the best of the major carriers in this country, something that many on this site don't like. There's a large and vocal clan of people here who dislike DL and chime in whenever possible to dismiss any accomplishments DL makes. I decided I'd respond to the things you listed with what my knowledge of the issues are:

-DL loses a billion dollars a year in NYC

If this is indeed the case then it's likely that AA, B6, and even UA are all losing substantial amounts of money as well. The market is so huge and so competitive that it's hard for airlines to make money in NYC, just look how much lower fares are in competitive markets from NYC compared to other large metropolitan areas. And somehow, in spite of these enormous losses, DL continues to expand in the market and invest billions building and improving their facilities. For the US carrier that made the most money last year and this year, thus far, that doesn't add up. If it doesn't add up it's not true.

-DL can’t compete with AA & UA in Latin America+

And AA can't compete to the Asia/Pacific region. Every carrier has its weaknesses and can't be all things to all people. DL has the smallest presence in Latin America, but serves nearly all of the major markets. DL doesn't need to have a hub in MIA to operate into South America, bigger is not always better.

-DL loses money in SLC & LAX

DL makes money in SLC, as told by their executive team at many investor relations meetings, so unless they're lying, which is criminal, that is simply false. Who knows about LAX, but like NYC, it's too important a market for DL, or any airline, to let go of, and thus losses could mount and DL would continue to provide ample service.

-DL has inferior hubs vs. AA & UA (I would argue that UA does have the best hubs in the US)

This is stated over and over by armchair CEOs, and it's false. DL's ATL hub is the envy of the US airline industry, and extremely profitable. DL's MSP hub is also one of the highest margin hubs in the country, while DTW has also may headway in recent years. Stats were posted here not too long ago that showed DL's MSP and DTW hubs (individually) provide almost identical revenues to AA's ORD hub and are on par with UA's ORD hub, but with higher yields. Is it better to control two medium sized markets or to share one large market? I'd choose the former.

-DL’s Asian portfolio is inferior to UA’s

And? DL still has a large presence in the market and has competed effectively. Again, bigger isn't better.

-DL's "split-hub" operation in NYC is a mistake

This is yet to be seen, and according to DL's executive team, NYC has beat their expectations so far.

-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

This will all be changing next year. And in terms of being inferior, in what way? They'll have a clean, modern, efficient operation to serve their customers. This is the United States, not Dubai.

Jeremy

Topic: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your opinion please?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-11-11 09:25:49 and read 1926 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL loses a billion dollars a year in NYC

We are? As long as we make it up elsewhere.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL can’t compete with AA & UA in Latin America

AA is nowhere to be found in Africa, only 4 places in Asia, and 9 in Europe. UA is in one place in Africa, 10 in Europe. Can't AA and UA compete there? Please make any necessary corrections

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL loses money in SLC & LAX

They do? Sources please.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL has inferior hubs vs. AA & UA (I would argue that UA does have the best hubs in the US)

ATL is hardly an inferior hub, MIA will be ours eventually...and EWR should be recoded EWW.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL’s Asian portfolio is inferior to UA’s

Doesn't DL serve more Asian cities than UA? How's UA's South American, African, European portfolio compared to Delta's?

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL's "split-hub" operation in NYC is a mistake

I certainly don't think so. The others WISH thay had as big an operation at LGA or JFK.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

Nolo contendere. But they're better than UA's at JFK. And when DL gobbles up AA assets at MIA and JFK, what will you say then?

Bottom line (and that's where it really counts), DL is doing just fine.

Topic: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your opinion please?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-11-11 09:31:11 and read 1926 times.

I think the answer here is fortress hubs.......and Delta has very strong following and loyalty in smaller/medium markets near its hubs. Some markets like IDA, BOI, SUN, JAX, SAV, FAR etc etc and many more all cities where Delta does very well and just feeds people to its hubs all small but when you add all those up its great money. These cities are all much higher fare than ORD, DEN, LAX etc so they can be very profitable even if they are so much smaller they are making more per passenger.

SLC is the best example its smaller but is consistently profitable and i am sure they are much happier there with a consistently profitable hub rather than fighting it out in Denver for example or they are happier in DTW and in MSP than ORD. Delta is clearly doing things right in this tough industry.

NYC probably is loosing alot of money right now but thats all temporary it takes time to win people over and pay for all the expenses of a new hub and advertising. Give NYC time i think both DL and US got what was best in the end and it was a fantastic deal for both. It is just going to take them some time to develop and see what works/fails thats all.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

This one is totally 100% accurate. It is a dump. To put a positive spin they are going to totally replace it so its only for a limited amount of time we have to deal with that dump.



Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
DL loses money in SLC & LAX

LAX is not a hub so it cant really loose/make that much and they fill the planes with people coming from the Delta hubs/historically strong delta markets. They loose money when they try to fill planes with LAX origin passengers but they have abandoned all those markets for the most part. I cant see it loosing that much its just not killing it either they wont rehub it, they clearly are more interested in a little city in the pac-northwest along the coast for international possibilities.


[Edited 2012-11-11 09:42:47]

Topic: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your opinion please?
Username: andygarrett
Posted 2012-11-11 09:44:42 and read 1929 times.

They are now doing a lot right. For what started out as Huff Daland Dusters, Incorporated is now a dominate global airline. C. E. Woolman should be proud.

On my flight back to ATL from BRU they served a fillet steak that would have been very difficult to grill better in the backyard.

If the economy doesn't fall off the cliff again, which many economists are predicting, delta should be on very solid ground in a couple of years as often mentioned investments really begin to pay off.

Anderson and Bastien have taken some huge risks and made some big bets in the past 5 years and I see them really paying off now and the future.

Topic: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your opinion please?
Username: DualQual
Posted 2012-11-11 09:58:38 and read 1921 times.

My opinion? Delta is trying to run an actual airline with a product you want to buy. Are they perfect? Of course not, no entity is. But they seem to display leadership and some innovative thinking. That alone will hit more often than miss. While others seem more focused on spreadsheets and data, DAL is trying to work on the actual product.

Topic: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your opinion please?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-11 10:07:50 and read 1921 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):

Most of this should probably be considered flame bait, which proves that you can discount at least half of what you see & hear, here on A.net if these are indeed the facts you've gleened from reading on this forum.


I think I could probably name the members that may have brought up each of these individual points, but I think you know who they are. You can almost guarantee that their names will be on any post, disparaging DL and whatever they do.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: AA94
Posted 2012-11-11 11:27:08 and read 1918 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):


  

I agree with all of your points, with the exception of one.

DL's facilities in JFK are not up to par. Granted, they will be in the next couple of years, but the facility is very dated, the layout is somewhat non-conducive to running an operation like they run, and the amount of space in the terminal is in no way proportional to the amount of people traveling through it. This is really the only thing I can fault DL on, and I think it's minor in the grand scheme of things.

Quoting DualQual (Reply 5):
My opinion? Delta is trying to run an actual airline with a product you want to buy. Are they perfect? Of course not, no entity is. But they seem to display leadership and some innovative thinking. That alone will hit more often than miss. While others seem more focused on spreadsheets and data, DAL is trying to work on the actual product.

Agreed. DL is doing a lot of things very well. They don't need to do everything. It's better to be good at what you do than try to do everything and let quality suffer.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-11 11:31:14 and read 1917 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
-DL can’t compete with AA & UA in Latin America+

And AA can't compete to the Asia/Pacific region.

I'd argue that AA is better positioned in Asia than either UA or DL because it doesn't have the dead weight of an unprofitable NRT hub. BKK and SIN aren't making or breaking things for UA or DL.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
Is it better to control two medium sized markets or to share one large market? I'd choose the former.

Me too (and your argument applies equally if not more strongly to SLC versus DEN), but that ignores the fact that I'd rather control MIA than deal with FL/WN at ATL, and I'd rather control EWR or PHL than deal with a split hub at JFK/LGA. Wouldn't you?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2012-11-11 11:59:35 and read 1920 times.

Delta is managing their costs, debt, and capital expenses brilliantly. Right now, it's costing them in terms of share price, but it will pay off in a few years. The refinery purchase may or may not work, but that wasn't a bet-the-company transaction.

Obviously, they hope NYC will pay off, too. I think we'll have to wait and see about that part.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: NWAESC
Posted 2012-11-11 12:00:37 and read 1923 times.

Q: What is Delta doing right?

A: Network Planning & Revenue Management. Everything else flows from there.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: sxf24
Posted 2012-11-11 12:19:10 and read 1918 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
I'd argue that AA is better positioned in Asia than either UA or DL because it doesn't have the dead weight of an unprofitable NRT hub. BKK and SIN aren't making or breaking things for UA or DL.

Your point only makes sense if there was space for new participants. In reality, AA doesn't have the infrastructure or assets to compete against incumbent carriers and there are very few - if any - ex-US markets to Asia in need of additional competition.

A NRT hub in and of itself is not a great asset. However, the slots, history, and presence in every major Asian market gives DL and UA a distinct advantage. UA has already de-emphisized ex-NRT connections and DL will follow down the same path. DL has already deployed more NRT slots to beach markets with significant success.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: OOer
Posted 2012-11-11 12:37:49 and read 1917 times.

What is Delta doing right?

This is easy...

Delta is making a boatload of money when the world economy is in a recession. In 2-3 years when Europe climbs out of their hole Delta will be a cash cow.

How's that for an answer?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: seatback
Posted 2012-11-11 13:13:47 and read 1919 times.

I think overall, DL's doing great. But what I think is interesting is when we talk about hubs, there's no mention of CVG and MEM. Two very week hubs, which brings down their portfolio in comparison to it's competitors. AA doesn't have hubs in second tier markets and UA has by far the best hub markets (with maybe the exception of CLE).

From a service perspective, I'd like to see DL work on their domestic premium product. First Class and SkyClub offerings are pretty bad.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 2):
Nolo contendere. But they're better than UA's at JFK. And when DL gobbles up AA assets at MIA and JFK, what will you say then?

Sorry, but who can take you seriously when you say things like this? Things are looking in the right direction for AA. Their new cost structure along with its cornerstone hubs and a boat-load of new airplanes are a huge threat to Delta (not to mention the potential hook up with US to make them #1 in size.)

Now, AA just needs to take a page from DL's book, and sharpen their marketing, brand and become more aggressive internationally.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: ca2ohHP
Posted 2012-11-11 14:43:59 and read 1912 times.

What is Delta doing right? Employee relations are among the best in the industry, definitely better than AA. Heck even during bankruptcy, DL employees were 110% behind management. Also, when it comes to aircraft modifications (especially painting), they get it done quick. Look how long it took US to re-configure 9 A330's with sleeper seats (almost 2 years). I'd personally love to work for Delta, and would jump ship in a minute.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-11-11 14:45:21 and read 1910 times.

Quoting seatback (Reply 13):
Sorry, but who can take you seriously when you say things like this?

Apology accepted, but I couldn't care less if you take me seriously. Just wishful thinking on my part. Feel free to bypass any of my posts, you'll have less to apologize for.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2012-11-11 14:48:54 and read 1913 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):

I'd argue that AA is better positioned in Asia than either UA or DL because it doesn't have the dead weight of an unprofitable NRT hub. BKK and SIN aren't making or breaking things for UA or DL.

I disagree completely. It's much easier to re-shift and/or rightsize a market operation than it is to grow organically. If BKK and SIN don't make money for DL and UA, then they can stop serving these markets. It's easier and cheaper to end service then it is to start service. It would take a decade or more for AA to grow its own Pacific operation to equal what UA and DL currently have, which is something DL also was incapable of doing prior to the merger with NW. The role of ATI and JVs has diminished this tremendously, but in the absence of this AA would really struggle in the market. Still, NRT serves as the centerpiece of all three major's Asia/Pacific operations, something that, while changing, will continue throughout the foreseeable future.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):

Me too (and your argument applies equally if not more strongly to SLC versus DEN), but that ignores the fact that I'd rather control MIA than deal with FL/WN at ATL, and I'd rather control EWR or PHL than deal with a split hub at JFK/LGA. Wouldn't you?

MIA and ATL really don't compare. DL's ATL hub is more than three times the size of AA's MIA and serves as DL's main hub as well as the world's largest. MIA serves as the gateway to Latin America but can never function as a giant continental connection hub the way that ATL does nor can it serve as a good connecting point to Europe and Asia. DFW vs. ATL would be a more apt comparison, and I'd take ATL over any functioning US hub, the economies of scale are simply too large to ignore. But to your other points, yes, I'd take one large hub at PHL or EWR over the split operation at JFK/LGA, although all of the aforementioned markets are heavily competitive. However, the jury is still out on this one; let's see where DL stands with a hub at JFK and LGA (something that's never been done fully to the extent that DL has) in a few years once the dual hub strategy has matured.

Jeremy

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-11 15:04:18 and read 1909 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL loses a billion dollars a year in NYC
Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL's "split-hub" operation in NYC is a mistake

The Wall Street view is that it is losing that much and I don't doubt it. I'm not sure you can say that the split hub is a mistake as there is no other option for having a viable domestic and int'l operation. I *DO* think DL would be smart to start lobbying the Port of NY/NJ to eliminate the perimeter rule and start allowing transcons at LGA. DL has the most to gain from that.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
Where do they make their money?

ATL/DTW/MSP, probably in that order. I think all three are fabulously profitable. ATL is probably lower margin that the other two, but more in absolute profit due to size. I suspect with WN taking apart ATL, DL will now mint even more money in ATL and all three hubs will have margins of ~15%.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL loses money in SLC & LAX

SLC is around breakeven, again from Wall Street coverage. LAX is purportedly losing a good chunk of what NYC loses. I don't think that is surprising. They are flying tons of RJs up against Southwest and LCCs. They have fiercely competitive long-hauls and I think they are probably losing a ton on transcon which is why they are upgrading the product.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL has inferior hubs vs. AA & UA (I would argue that UA does have the best hubs in the US)

DL's successful hubs are not in the "sexy" cities, but the "sexy" cities are VERY competitive and that's why they are losing money in those cities. Any hub that is massively profitable isn't inferior.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

Yes, they are horrible. I think it's an embarrassment for America to welcome the poor huddled masses yearning to be free into the country through that disaster. Hopefully the new terminal fixes it.

I think the best thing Delta has done in the last couple of years is to vastly reduce the tit-for-tat retaliatory flying they did every time somebody entered one of their markets. It seems like once WN came into MSP they just gave up on such things. Retaliatory flying loses lots of money. I think DL is now being much smarter about that.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-11-11 15:05:10 and read 1912 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 3):
They loose money when they try to fill planes with LAX origin passengers but they have abandoned all those markets for the most part.
SFO/SAN/PHX/LAS/SMF/IND/RDU/CMH/LIH/KOA/OGG/SYD/HNL/HND/MCO/TPA/MIA are Delta hubs?

Jeesh i would nearly pay you to look at a timetable before you post about Delta and LAX.

and if they loose money in all those markets above....1) prove it. Please I beg you to prove me wrong. You have been speaking this crap for years....so prove it. So me that data. 2) why has nearly all of LAX's growth....up nearly 40% over the last few years....been in non-hub markets?

as normal i think you have no idea what your talking about.




Quoting enilria (Reply 17):

The Wall Street view is that it is losing that much and I don't doubt it. I'm not sure you can say that the split hub is a mistake as there is no other option for having a viable domestic and int'l operation. I *DO* think DL would be smart to start lobbying the Port of NY/NJ to eliminate the perimeter rule and start allowing transcons at LGA. DL has the most to gain from that.


this "wall street view" what is that? what does that mean? do they have P&Ls on wall street.

me thinks its people talking out of their a**es.




Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
ATL/DTW/MSP, probably in that order.


ATL/MSP/SLC/DTW/NYC......




Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
SLC is around breakeven, again from Wall Street coverage


*sigh* go ahead and explain this one too.


I can see this thread as nothing but bad. I personally think 99% off it will be people talking out of their butts with no real proof of anything they say.

[Edited 2012-11-14 20:36:27 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2012-11-11 15:18:12 and read 1909 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):

ATL/DTW/MSP, probably in that order. I think all three are fabulously profitable. ATL is probably lower margin that the other two, but more in absolute profit due to size. I suspect with WN taking apart ATL, DL will now mint even more money in ATL and all three hubs will have margins of ~15%.

1. ATL 2. MSP 3. Everything else after that is questionable. DL has stated repeatedly that MSP is its highest margin hub, while ATL pulls the highest numbers. DTW was actually unprofitable following the merger; DL has gained a lot of traction in DTW, with DL recently reporting that DTW is now making money.

Jeremy

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Mir
Posted 2012-11-11 15:44:49 and read 1910 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):
DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are)

Not "kinda". They definitely are.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 2):
But they're better than UA's at JFK.

First of all, no they're not - T7 is better than T2/T3. And second of all, why are you comparing the JFK facilities when you should be comparing DL and JFK and UA at EWR (and where UA still comes out ahead, despite having the very inconvenient terminal setup).

-Mir

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: pu
Posted 2012-11-11 15:52:23 and read 1909 times.

I think most of this story is a little less about Delta and a little more about the rationalisation of the American airline market.

Two competitors disappeared: CO and NW. Is it certain that UA and CO combined are worse for Delta than those competitors remaining unmarried? I don't think so! In the legacy world, the tendency is to stake out territory but let the legacy competitors have THEIR fiefdoms almost without challenge. Delta works best as hub-and-spoke entrants decline in number.


United made 500 million in the quarter, and this is with their integrtion problems. Their upside is higher.


Pu

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: commavia
Posted 2012-11-11 16:23:46 and read 1911 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 16):
It's easier and cheaper to end service then it is to start service. It would take a decade or more for AA to grow its own Pacific operation to equal what UA and DL currently have

It's true - it definitely takes longer, and costs more, to grow organically. But it's not impossible. And if the major economies of Asia grow in the coming decades as convention wisdom projects they will (and by the way, I don't think they will), then AA should be able to get in there and grow some more organically.

So it's true that now, today, and even in the future after AA grows further organically, they will not reach the critical mass that DL and especially UA already have. No argument. Although I would argue that AA doesn't really need to.

As it is now, today, AA's nonstop U.S.-Asia network ex-Japan is already approaching broad competitiveness with Delta. And Japan is largely taken care of by the JAL JBA. Excluding the flights from NRT, AA has now or soon will have as many or more flights nonstop from U.S. gateways to ICN and PVG each week as DL, and PEK is 7 vs DL's 14, so no drastic differentiation like both of them vs UA. Beyond that, every single other point DL serves in Asia is served via NRT, anyway, and none of those (HKG, TPE, MNL, BKK, SIN) except HKG would ever be places AA would be able to fly anyway - too low-yielding, too much competition from foreign flags. (And of course all of this is before the "right-sizing" occurs with DL's NRT operation, which I suspect is coming at some point.) With JAL they don't need to - they benefit from the same feed, and the same ability to coordinate schedules and optimize pricing, as DL can do over its own network, only AA gets to do it at a fraction of the capital cost and with far more flexibility.

There are drawbacks, certainly, to not having your own plane flying into these big Asian markets. The local DL (and UA) brand presence in those markets helps DL (and UA) relative to AA, and AA is unlikely to ever catch up to that in some markets. But again, they don't need to. It's similar to the situation in South America - which is substantially more dominated by AA than any other world region is by either DL or UA or any other U.S. carrier. AA is so far out ahead of everybody else that it's unlikely DL or UA will ever catch up. But do they need to? Are DL and UA still doing fairly well and holding their own in Latin America even despite the fact that AA is essentially as big as DL and UA combined? There is nothing to say AA can't do the same in Asia - AA will never be nearly as big as DL or UA, but I think they'll be "big enough" to be competitive.

[Edited 2012-11-11 16:26:28]

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-11-11 16:55:51 and read 1907 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 23):
too low-yielding, too much competition from foreign flags. (And of course all of this is before the "right-sizing" occurs with DL's NRT operation, which I suspect is coming at some point.)

but even with any right sizing, the cities you list will be staying around in the Delta network. I do think TPE will end up with a Delta flight from the US....mainly due to the SkyTeam hub at TPE.

MNL/BKK/SIN will keep its NRT flights....along with SPN/GUM. Any slots Delta gets from dumping...say PEK....will likely end up going to other beach markets....which are making Delta tons of money right now.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-11 16:59:13 and read 2235 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
And second of all, why are you comparing the JFK facilities when you should be comparing DL and JFK and UA at EWR (and where UA still comes out ahead, despite having the very inconvenient terminal setup).

Because the original statement was about DL's facilities at JFK, not EWR.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 20):
1. ATL 2. MSP 3. Everything else after that is questionable.

Unless I'm mistaken, SLC was 2nd in profitability until the NW merger.

Quoting pu (Reply 22):
Their upside is higher.

Not if they don't get their integration problems ironed out.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-11 17:10:51 and read 2325 times.

DL is doing one thing right, if anything: focusing older aircraft which can be acquired and maintained for cheap and outfitting them with the most modern interiors known to man, (or at least known to Americans    ) and focusing them on routes/airports that make the most money. Simple

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-11-11 17:11:34 and read 2521 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 25):
Unless I'm mistaken, SLC was 2nd in profitability until the NW merger.

Your not. SLC makes money. MSP just makes more(which is the general idea when you have 200-300 more flights a day)

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Max Q
Posted 2012-11-11 18:08:16 and read 2449 times.

They just have good management, probably the best in the American airline industry.


They actually believe in running a successful airline by treating employees well, planning for the future and thinking out of the box.


Like I've said before, I wish we had their management at UA.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: warren747sp
Posted 2012-11-11 18:20:44 and read 2429 times.

Make it impossible to book standard awards on almost any international flights especially business class to Asia!

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-11 18:27:28 and read 2486 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 20):
DTW was actually unprofitable following the merger; DL has gained a lot of traction in DTW, with DL recently reporting that DTW is now making money.

DL has done many things right at DTW since the merger, but bear in mind also that the merger happened almost right at the bottom of the recession, and this was a particularly large issue in DTW. A strong automotive industry helps DTW's numbers tremendously.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 16):
However, the jury is still out on this one; let's see where DL stands with a hub at JFK and LGA (something that's never been done fully to the extent that DL has) in a few years once the dual hub strategy has matured.

I think DL at least has a shot at succeeding with the dual hub, but I can't argue with a straight face that a dual hub is preferable to a single hub of similar size.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: spiritair97
Posted 2012-11-11 18:33:06 and read 2448 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 21):

I was gonna say that, but I didn't wanna offend anybody. I fly out of T7 quite often and find it a very enjoyable experience, whereas flying DL out of JFK is annoying and tedious. Last time I flew out of JFK on DL, it involved a two hour delay (which wasn't DL's fault, but still annoying), and upon showing up to our assigned gate, we waited 25 minutes while the gate displays said "Santo Domingo" instead of "Atlanta". We then overheard an announcment saying that all ATL passengers on our flight (DL269), had to go to another part of the terminal and get the shuttlebus to terminal 4. The 10 minute walk that exshausted my 85 year old grandfather who was traveling with us found us waiting in line for 10 minutes for the shuttle to take us across the airport. They blamed the terminal change on the fact that the flight arrives from BOG, but they should know this beforehand, eliminating the need for the trudge across the airport.

What I'm saying is, yes DL's facilities are WAAY inferior to UA's @ JFK. Though this will probably change when the new terminal is finished.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-11 18:42:45 and read 2476 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
If this is indeed the case then it's likely that AA, B6, and even UA are all losing substantial amounts of money as well.

A bit simplistic. DL's domestic yields underperform AA and UA's in many markets from NYC.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 19):
this "wall street view" what is that? what does that mean? do they have P&Ls on wall street.

While they don't have access to DL's own figures, you can bet that the analysts have models that generate estimates of route and hub profitability (and probably pretty decent ones) using data published in DL financial statements and the U.S. DoT and other databases. It's part of what they're paid to do.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: RamblinMan
Posted 2012-11-11 19:44:08 and read 2408 times.

Quoting DualQual (Reply 5):
While others seem more focused on spreadsheets and data, DAL is trying to work on the actual product.

Agreed. The new website they just rolled out speaks volumes for what they are trying to deliver. It looks clean and it's very functional.

I'd also say that the expansion of Economy Comfort is something they are doing right. Premium economy offerings are becoming very popular, DL's is a good value and people want to buy it.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 2):
and EWR should be recoded EWW.

You're not kidding. I spent the night in the terminal a while back...totally miserable experience. So while DL at JFK has crappy facilities it's not like UA has a huge advantage there.

And for all the whining people do about JFK, the Delta Terminal at LGA is quite nice IMHO, especially compared to the crappy CTB. And then there's the Marine Air building and the shuttle operation as a whole- top notch. The terminal feels more like a nice FBO, no line at security, free beer on the plane. While trains have largely replaced planes on NYC-BOS, the market to Chicago is huge and DL unquestionably offers the best product on the route.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: pu
Posted 2012-11-11 20:02:19 and read 2419 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 23):

by the JAL JBA

Neither relying on BA in London to serve customers going to Europe nor relying on JAL in Tokyo to serve customers going to Asia will EVER beat Delta serving destinations themselves, (who collect revenue without having to share with a partner.)

...of course the messianic love affair with AA and everything failed AA management "explains" about the world airline market prevents (for some) any thought about Delta except that it is inferior to AA's code-share philosphy.



Pu

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: aa777lvr
Posted 2012-11-11 20:51:59 and read 2382 times.

Allright, here goes for what many may perceive as an unpopular opinion on what DL is doing right........

IMO, one of the best things DL has going for it was it's ability to hold off unionized labor in many of it's workgroups. Richard Anderson was a genius in merging 2 airlines with complimentary strengths and dismantling the labor unions that were a stronghold at PMNW. DL did well to get rid of many expensive PMNW (historically very pro-union) folks prior to the union voting a couple of years ago in favor of the more anti-union PMDL folks. Anderson took the planes, routes and hubs that were complimentary to building DL and shed the unions that would have hindered the merger (example - UA/CO).

The ready reserve program, while a revolving door of entry-level labor for above wing and below wing operations, is a genius maneuver to keep labor costs low. They pay these folks ~$11 an hour plus flight benefits and avoid the expense of offereing them health insurance, 401K, etc.

DL I feel was also ahead of the ball in seeing that investing in in-flight technology (WiFi) was a better bet than investing in enhanced in-flight entertainment. Several years ago some carriers were putting dollars into new entertainment systems instead of equipping their fleets with WiFI which is what both business and leisure travellers are demanding. Carriers now are attempting to play catch-up to equip their mainline and regional aicraft.

Their upgrade policy is genius (IMO) as well. They upgrade their premium folks based on a combination of status and fare (not just status as with many airlines). Therefore, for many it seems to level the playing field in terms of the potential for upgrade (low status, high fare = you may just get upgraded after-all). I would venture to say even for the HVC who didn't get upgraded they assume someone with a lower status probably had a more expensive ticket. In the end, it's a more equitable system of handing out upgrades.

Service disruptions are another way DL handles things well. DL is one airline that tries to minimize the impact of service failures (delays, cancellations) at the FPOC. Instead of telling a customer "just write into our consumer relations department" they actually will give a meal voucher or a voucher for $50 off your next flight (based on severity). This gives customers less time to "brew" about their inconvenience. While many never use the food voucher (in the event of a minor delay) it still makes it appear as though DL cares and wants to make ammends for the issue. Many airlines don't approach customer service issues this way. The experience has more time to "fester" in these cases where front-line employees brush off the issue to an anonymous web link on the company website for logging complaints.

Anywho...just my opinions.

-AA777LVR

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-11-11 21:02:33 and read 2352 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 30):

I think DL at least has a shot at succeeding with the dual hub, but I can't argue with a straight face that a dual hub is preferable to a single hub of similar size.

I agree...but I think if can be made to work....NYC is about the only city that it can be done in....

Quoting neveragain (Reply 32):

While they don't have access to DL's own figures, you can bet that the analysts have models that generate estimates of route and hub profitability (and probably pretty decent ones) using data published in DL financial statements and the U.S. DoT and other databases. It's part of what they're paid to do.

and i have yet to see anyone on wall street post a single thing about SLC losing money anyways....but still. They don't have anymore info than we do.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2012-11-11 21:19:46 and read 2363 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 3):

DL has a huge number of routes that rely on O&D traffic at LAX. They clearly don't just make money at LAX by shuttling people to their hubs. You say that LAX is a lower-fare market compared to smaller cities, but consider how many passengers DL has coming into and out of LAX every day (both on O&D and connecting flights). I mean, they have 9 or 10 daily flights from ATL alone! They clearly see LAX as a lucrative market, somewhat for connections, but mostly for O&D traffic because the L.A. metropolitan area is such a popular destination.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-11 21:22:09 and read 2356 times.

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 35):
DL did well to get rid of many expensive PMNW (historically very pro-union) folks prior to the union voting a couple of years ago in favor of the more anti-union PMDL folks.

Unions are gone, most of the people are still there.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-11-11 21:52:34 and read 2376 times.

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 35):
DL did well to get rid of many expensive PMNW (historically very pro-union) folks prior to the union voting a couple of years ago in favor of the more anti-union PMDL folks.

huh? who did Delta "get rid of"?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Max Q
Posted 2012-11-12 00:07:49 and read 2338 times.

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 35):
Anderson took the planes, routes and hubs that were complimentary to building DL and shed the unions that would have hindered the merger (example - UA/CO).

Er, what, he 'shed the unions' ?!!!


Please explain this. I won't even start on how unions have 'hindered' the CO/UA merger.... yet.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2012-11-12 02:21:36 and read 2304 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 32):
A bit simplistic. DL's domestic yields underperform AA and UA's in many markets from NYC.

I would like to see a breakout of this. There are many different categories here:

- Point-to-Point JFK flying (JFK-AUS/CMH)
- Competitive Point-to-Point LGA flying (LGA-IAH/CLT)
- Non-Competitive Point-to-Point LGA flying (LGA-CAE/MHT)
- JFK Transcontinental Routes (JFK-LAX/SFO)
- Domestic LGA/JFK Connect Markets (LGA-DTW-OKC)
- International Connect Traffic (JFK-CDG-WAW)
- International O&D Nonstop Traffic (JFK-DUB/GRU/NRT)
- International Hub Traffic Using JFK Nonstops (CMH-JFK-DUB)

To get a clearer picture of what, exactly, is not profitable, it would be best to break out markets by competitive set. I don't think saying that all of DL's operations underperform its competitors really means much until you look at the numbers and identify where the problem areas are.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: aa777lvr
Posted 2012-11-12 04:09:50 and read 2277 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 40):
huh? who did Delta "get rid of"?



I'm referring to early-out programs....voluntary separations from the company (NW).

AA777LVR

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-12 04:54:02 and read 2266 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 36):
They don't have anymore info than we do.

They probably do, but even if they don't, they probably have it organized a hell of a lot better than anywhere on here not working in DL network planning or finance (i.e., those who have the "real" answer) does.

I have not read anything about SLC, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the poorer-performing hubs.

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 35):
Their upgrade policy is genius (IMO) as well. They upgrade their premium folks based on a combination of status and fare (not just status as with many airlines).

How does DL's upgrade policy differ from UA's or US's?

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 41):
I would like to see a breakout of this.

Be my guest:

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/DL_Sele...rigin%20and%20Destination%20Survey

(International data are not publicly available.)

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2012-11-12 05:01:11 and read 2270 times.

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 33):
I'd also say that the expansion of Economy Comfort is something they are doing right. Premium economy offerings are becoming very popular, DL's is a good value and people want to buy it.

Thanks for pointing that out. Do any airlines really make money flying people from A to B or is it from ancillary fees and upsells like Economy Comfort? Do airlines break it down like that? I'd be interested to see that.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-12 06:02:41 and read 2247 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 2):
Nolo contendere. But they're better than UA's at JFK. And when DL gobbles up AA assets at MIA and JFK, what will you say then?
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 2):
MIA will be ours eventually...

As much as you think this may happen, you should hold off on saying this type of thing because you lost a lot of credit for it. If you are in an AA Bankruptcy thread go for it but when you are trying to be serious and bring facts it just ruins your post.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-12 06:29:48 and read 2257 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 19):
this "wall street view" what is that? what does that mean? do they have P&Ls on wall street.
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 19):
ATL/MSP/SLC/DTW/NYC......
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 19):
*sigh* go ahead and explain this one too.

You do realize that Delta releases all its revenue data down to the O&D level? They also release fairly detailed cost data. The only piece of data not publicly available is Delta's operating cost at each airport, but that is fairly easily estimated within 1.5 margin points. The reason why *you* can't do it is because you need to be an analyst to get access to the detailed international revenue data. It is not publicly available. It is very easy to completely recreate Delta's entire network profitability...or any U.S. airline. You weren't aware of this. Just go over to bts.gov and start downloading it. It is free.

...and yes, NYC is awful.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 20):
DL has stated repeatedly that MSP is its highest margin hub, while ATL pulls the highest numbers.

Delta's stage adjusted average fare is $2 higher in DTW than MSP in the most recent quarter. LF is virtually the same. They should have a margin that is nearly identical. Also, in the last four quarterly calls they have said "both are doing very well". If MSP is higher it is only by 1 margin point or less. Public data and public statements from the company support this.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-12 06:41:38 and read 2232 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 46):
Delta's stage adjusted average fare is $2 higher in DTW than MSP in the most recent quarter. LF is virtually the same. They should have a margin that is nearly identical.

Are facilities costs or debt service (related to the McNamara terminal) significantly higher at DTW?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: csavel
Posted 2012-11-12 06:44:50 and read 2263 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 3):
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

This one is totally 100% accurate. It is a dump. To put a positive spin they are going to totally replace it so its only for a limited amount of time we have to deal with that dump.

Agree, am a big Delta fan and it sucks. But, frankly, I think the quality of a terminal factors in much, much, less in people's decisions that we at A.net think. After all most people want to be in a terminal, any terminal *for as little time as possible!*. Thus while being stuck in a delay at T3 in JFK is a lot worse than, say T4 or T1 or most other terminals anywhere, people won't care. They *will* care if they are stuck with delays a lot in *any* terminal. My company (based in NY) has made many decisions on which airline to do their corporate travel business. Factors include price, where they fly to (We go to Africa a lot), and scheduling. I can tell you the relative niceness of dumpy T3 vs. American's terminal or UAL's EWR terminal has never, EVER, come up.

Bottom line, yeah it stinks, yeah they are finally working on it, but it's factor on the bottom line is less than you think.

PS We've been Delta people for a long time, mostly because of the KLM/AF code share since we do a lot of work in Africa. If UAL or AA had better alliances and connections to Africa we'd probably use them. (We did almost switch to AA because of BA's African network, but AF KLM's combo was and still is better, IMHO)

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 36):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 30):

I think DL at least has a shot at succeeding with the dual hub, but I can't argue with a straight face that a dual hub is preferable to a single hub of similar size.

I agree...but I think if can be made to work....NYC is about the only city that it can be done in....

What should be done is take the Airtrain, extend it to LGA, and then have "sealed trains" that go from JFK to LGA, bypassing Jamaica - have a cart for luggage. SO transferring from LGA to JFK is like transferring between terminals. You might have to do security again, but still muy conveniente!

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-11-12 07:27:20 and read 2210 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 45):

Who said I was trying to be serious? Again, wishful thinking. Feel free to bypass my posts.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-12 07:40:15 and read 2204 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 46):

...and yes, NYC is awful.

That certainly jibes with what I have heard, although everyone should take that with a grain of salt.

I think everyone will note in public statements that DL is very careful when it talks about its performance in New York. While the situation may be constantly improving, that does not mean it's improving from an initial position of profitability.

It must also be stated that anything the analysts produce will be an estimate, and there will probably be some disagreement among them on the specifics due to different cost allocation algorithms and methodologies. But they do undertake such calculations, as evidenced by the analyst who claimed AA was losing money on JFK-LHR, ORD-DEL, and JFK-EZE (or was it MIA-EZE)? There were a couple others.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
Are facilities costs or debt service (related to the McNamara terminal) significantly higher at DTW?

The residual business deal in DTW is more advantageous to DL than the deal in MSP, with PFCs fully leveraged, the airlines getting essentially all nonairline revenues, and virtual control over the operating budget (not to mention strong influence over parking rates and business terms for concessionaires).

I don't have a recent CPE to compare, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were fairly close, even with the new terminal at DTW.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-12 07:44:20 and read 2215 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 50):
I don't have a recent CPE to compare, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were fairly close, even with the new terminal at DTW.

That's good to hear. At least for the past decade or so, DTW has seemed to me to be very well-managed. The North Terminal is a good example of a functional (and sorely needed) new facility that didn't break the bank. It's not flashy, but there are only a few functional things that could have been done better.

I think there's something to be said for having your hubs at airports with competent management. US also seems to do a good job of that.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-12 07:59:17 and read 2164 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 49):
Who said I was trying to be serious? Again, wishful thinking. Feel free to bypass my posts.

Your post was completly right except for this. I would just mark that as wishful thinking if the rest of your post is going to be serious so people don't confuse the two.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2012-11-12 08:14:14 and read 2190 times.

As a member of the Delta family and somewhat biased, I would offer the following reasons why DL made a billion dollars in the last quarter:

1. Serious cost controls.
2. Upgrading the fleet with inflight entertainment options, seating, better food offerings and Wifi.
3. Having a flexible fleet that can change instantly based on load projections and needs.
4. Superior yield management.
5. An involved leadership with a serious open door policy for any employee. An email to the CEO is answered within a day!
6. EIG's--Employee Involvement Groups that identify small problems before they become big ones.
7. The finest employees in the industry that sincerely love their jobs, the airline business and have a vested interest in Delta's fortunes through profit sharing and a monthly reward system (CASH!) for meeting operational goals. And everyone got a pay raise this year and another in January.
8. A merger that will be studied in MBA schools as an example in how to properly merge, encourage and treat both groups of employees as equals. We became instant friends and never adversaries. That deeply affects customer service. Delta met every single project date for the merger right on the day they had set! That included cross-training nearly 80,000 employees in nine months.
9. State of the art training facilities with constant training, both hands-on, classroom and computer-based instruction.
10. A meteorology department second to none that sees weather issues and positions aircraft and crews appropriately for a rapid return to normal operatons, even after an event like Sandy.
11. Recognition of and special attention to HVC's--High Value Customers. You'd be amazed when I would stop at a business class seat and say "Mr. Jones, I see that you are a Platinum Member. Delta and I thank you for your loyalty. Or is it that you just really love our food?" Always got a smile in return. They LIKE and appreciate the recognition.
12. The JFK/LGA terminal projects are well underway and will make a terrific difference. Both airports suffer from the same problem--not enough geography. At one point there had been discussion about expanding JFK over to the old Floyd Bennett Field which would have helped but would be a tremendous engineering project. Personally, I wish they would move the Delta Shuttle from the Marine Air Terminal (a beautiful building) to the new terminal complex. DL is adding new destinations constantly out of both airports with a current special emphasis on Africa--where the yields are very high.
13. Delta is the "stealth" airline. You will never know what they are going to do until they do it. Planning is kept close among a very small group of the leadership. No sense in tipping your hand to the competition. And you can be assured that there are notebooks filled with contingency plans for various opportunities that may crop up.
14. HINT--if you want to win your way into a Delta employee's heart, stop and say "thank you for what you do every day." We are human and like to be appreciated. Even when things seem to be going squirrely, just stop and say "sorry this is going to be such a tough day for you. We appreciate your efforts." You'll get a big grin in return. Guaranteed.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-12 08:16:50 and read 2160 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
Are facilities costs or debt service (related to the McNamara terminal) significantly higher at DTW?

It appears from airport data that the CPE difference is only about $1.50. That's a fraction of a margin point.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 50):
I think everyone will note in public statements that DL is very careful when it talks about its performance in New York. While the situation may be constantly improving, that does not mean it's improving from an initial position of profitability.

I think you are correct. They always say things in the quarterly calls like: "above expectations", "beating plan", "continuing to move in the right direction". Those are all code for its losing money, but we aren't giving up on it. I'm not suggesting they should give up on NYC. They are "investing" and the expectation is that at some point they will "win". The slot situation at LGA now gives them a new weapon in their efforts to succeed in charging customers a premium in NYC. Whether it will succeed who knows and it will definitely take years to play out. I do think they should get the perimeter rule removed which further throws all the balls in the air. One of the reasons AA remains so strong in NYC with really minimal service (arguably, but it's certainly not a "hub") is that they do well to California. DL is an "also-ran" in the market. They could reset the situation by lifting the LGA perimeter. I think it's only good for them:
a) removes competition from JFK where they will gain share.
b) moves the transcon market where DL has a huge slot advantage and accompanying connectivity advantage.
c) because of the smaller slot portfolio for AA/UA/B6 (none for VX) they will be forced to pull other shorter markets to fund the transcon slots and that benefits DL which has a much more vast array of slots to move around and can backfill in markets like BNA where AA would likely steal slots to run LAX.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 50):
It must also be stated that anything the analysts produce will be an estimate
Quoting neveragain (Reply 50):
different cost allocation algorithms

Well, cost allocation is not a science, it is a matter of choices. You could argue that an analyst could produce a more valid cost allocation scheme than DL uses in their own system. Can they replicate the same allocation decisions DL uses, no. That doesn't mean, however, that the Wall Street analyst's system is "wrong". It's kind of like grading against the scorecard you created yourself or the scorecard an independent party created for grading everyone on the same scale. So, I wouldn't call it wrong. There is no right or wrong in cost allocation, it's just an argument/discussion/debate as to what is more valid.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-12 08:25:52 and read 2150 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 54):
There is no right or wrong in cost allocation, it's just an argument/discussion/debate as to what is more valid.

You're absolutely right, but I would argue by its very nature, it's an estimate.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2012-11-12 08:41:06 and read 2168 times.

Even though I am NOT one of the DL FanBoys on ANet, I feel the anti-DL comments of some people here are factually wrong; the only other place where I see so many erroneous comments about DL is in the Minneapolis Star Tribune.

Personally, I feel DL has only two real problem areas:

1. Their third world facilities in JFK, which will be fixed in a few years.

2. Their efforts in LAX. I feel DL is making a mistake trying to compete in LAX "because they need to be there". I feel DL would be better off focusing on SEA, where they could be the truly dominant airline, just as UA dominates SFO. SEA is much closer to Asia than Los Angeles is, and the combination of shorter flying times and weaker competition could turn SEA into a real cash cow.

Even though ORD is a huge market, DL has chosen not to compete with UA, AA, and WN there just because of its size. I think DL would be much better off applying their ORD strategy to LAX.

With the exception of these two areas, I think DL is doing everything almost perfectly - employee relations, fleet strategy, route development, etc. As others have said, the DL / NW merger will go down in history as the smoothest merger of all time.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 53):
14. HINT--if you want to win your way into a Delta employee's heart, stop and say "thank you for what you do every day." We are human and like to be appreciated. Even when things seem to be going squirrely, just stop and say "sorry this is going to be such a tough day for you. We appreciate your efforts." You'll get a big grin in return. Guaranteed.

I agree 100%; this applies to all public contact airline employees, not just DL.

Three weeks ago, I got a schedule change notification from DL that had a big impact on my XMas travel plans. I called DL reservations. Even though the DL res agent was not able to resolve the problem to my satisfaction, and I'm now stuck on flights I don't want to be on, instead of taking out my frustrations on her, I was able to get her laughing. The amazing thing is - after the call, even though I'm not happy with how things worked out, I felt happier than if I'd allowed my frustrations to provoke me into losing my temper.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-11-12 08:55:36 and read 2158 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 41):
To get a clearer picture of what, exactly, is not profitable, it would be best to break out markets by competitive set. I don't think saying that all of DL's operations underperform its competitors really means much until you look at the numbers and identify where the problem areas are.

I dont think analyzing JFK/LGA routes seperately matters solely on numbers. Of course Delta does not want to loose a ton on a route but i think each route has its own limits on development trying to build an overally product competative with United. They are trying to develop an overall product like United has out of EWR to everywhere important. United needs to operate the very short express EWR-YUL and mainline long distance EWR-SEA both all are important to offer an overall product even if they are not making alot of money on a single route etc. Delta is basically looking to offer a product in NYC like united has out of EWR its just split to two airports. Its important that overall operation makes money which i really think it will in the end and thats all that really matters. I think Delta is willing to give NYC some time to develop and cares more about what routes are under demand and important than actually make money here in the short term building stage. They need to build a solid base of travellers in NYC and they offer enough flights now to probably keep building it over the years so of course some routes will bomb and stink and they will be cut but i dont think its as simple as which are profitable and which are not i think they will keep flying some loosers to build a product and overally NYC will be profitable and thats what matters.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: XJetflyer
Posted 2012-11-12 09:16:40 and read 2163 times.

I have flown Delta off and on for certain trips. They do a pretty good job and no real complaints. Some of their aircraft feel very old and dated. Besides that, they do a good job in my book.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-12 09:20:47 and read 2168 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 43):
I have not read anything about SLC, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the poorer-performing hubs.

And why would that be? SLC has always been one of the better performing hubs, and for this reason, it was chosen over DFW to remain as a hub.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-12 09:30:33 and read 2156 times.

I don't think anyone is arguing that split hubs are better than single hubs, but really, it is impossible to merge DL's NYC operations into one airport.

I'll even argue that LGA/JFK are NOT split hubs... they are two very different hubs that so happen to be very close to each other. The goal of NYC isn't to have someone travel ATH-JFK then LGA-EYW... JFK and LGA are two completely different markets and really don't work together that much. JFK is mainly the gateway to Europe, while LGA is more of a regional hub with very high O&D.

If DL could magically spawn a new airport and merge LGA/JFK together, they would, but they can't and they are making due with what they have.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-12 09:33:35 and read 2166 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 59):

And why would that be? SLC has always been one of the better performing hubs, and for this reason, it was chosen over DFW to remain as a hub.

My saying that I wouldn't be surprised if it SLC was "one of the poorer-performing hubs" and your saying that it has "always been one of the better-performing hubs" isn't going to advance the discussion because neither of us is presenting any data.

I can tell you the rationale for my statement, though, and that is that SLC is (1) primarily a domestic-oriented hub to an airline increasingly focused on international traffic, which that airline labels as "more profitable"; and (2) the unique, uncompetitive traffic flows served via SLC are small in number and small in size. Sure, SLC is a great place to connect to get from PDX to AUS, but I can almost guarantee without looking at the data that WN has that market along with a good portion of other similarly "big" markets not large enough to support a nonstop flight.

Finally, we're arguing the profitability of the following hubs:

ATL
DTW
MSP
SLC
CVG
MEM
JFK

Maybe SLC is the "strongest" of the last 4 and could very well be profitable, but based on the reductions in service at SLC since 2000, I don't think I'd label it as a "strong performer."

It could indeed be the case that SLC was very profitable for DL in years past. But one would expect that could have changed because of (1) high fuel prices; (2) the Northwest merger and competition with the MSP hub; and (3) increased competition for connecting traffic in large east-west domestic markets attributable to WN's buildup at DEN.

As for SLC chosen over DFW to remain a hub, I'd say that choice was a pretty clear one.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: seatback
Posted 2012-11-12 09:52:15 and read 2180 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 53):
Upgrading the fleet with inflight entertainment options, seating, better food offerings and Wifi.

First of all, I've become a big DL fan (Diamond Level). However, their food in first class on domestic flights is pretty bad (just finished a bowl of raisin bran on my flight from CVG to DEN). Also, cold sandwiches on a flight 2.5 hrs is unacceptable. Same goes with the food offerings at the SkyClub.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 53):
Recognition of and special attention to HVC's--High Value Customers. You'd be amazed when I would stop at a business class seat and say "Mr. Jones, I see that you are a Platinum Member. Delta and I thank you for your loyalty

Very nice touch. I hear this frequently from ground agents as well.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-12 10:13:35 and read 2158 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 55):
Quoting enilria (Reply 54):
There is no right or wrong in cost allocation, it's just an argument/discussion/debate as to what is more valid.

You're absolutely right, but I would argue by its very nature, it's an estimate.

Then I would argue that DL's own internal profitability system is by the same definition, also an estimate. I often find it funny when on quarterly calls the execs are asked about a particular route and they say "it's profitable" when it's clear from the data they have provided it is not profitable. The problem is that the term "profitable" is ill-defined when it comes to airline routes. In these situations where these comments are made, they are usually using the most favorable reference to profitability by looking at full O&D revenue and only variable/incremental cost which makes anything profitable, but most would agree that measure is pretty meaningless. I would say the only relevant measure of profitability is "segment" profitability where all costs across the whole organization are allocated to flights and revenue is pro-rated using a standard ratio to the flight. Everything other than that is more of a political P&L used to justify various types of loss-leading. That is one reason why a Wall Street analyst might actually have a more valid measure of profitability than the airline's system.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 56):
Their efforts in LAX. I feel DL is making a mistake trying to compete in LAX "because they need to be there". I feel DL would be better off focusing on SEA, where they could be the truly dominant airline,

It's the same thing they are doing in NYC. I don't think the logic is different. I'm not even sure it is a bad idea. Sure, it is costing a lot of money, but it's necessary for relevance in a world where there will be 3 large network carriers.

To get SEA they need to buy AS and they know that. It would also help with LAX. The time will come.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 61):
Maybe SLC is the "strongest" of the last 4 and could very well be profitable, but based on the reductions in service at SLC since 2000, I don't think I'd label it as a "strong performer."

I think the strong position of WN in SLC has always made the yields there sub-optimal. WN is not so large that its like PHX, but there is a lot more yield pressure there than in MSP. MEM and CVG were just an empty egg shell. There was no yolk. Without a local market there is no high yield traffic to offset the low-yield connects. The remaining hubs have decent % local situations. The worst hub in the USA on local mix is now CLT. I think the % local is under 20%.

[Edited 2012-11-12 10:13:59]

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-12 10:19:58 and read 2154 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 61):
Maybe SLC is the "strongest" of the last 4 and could very well be profitable, but based on the reductions in service at SLC since 2000, I don't think I'd label it as a "strong performer."

Well, I was working there in 2000 and I don't remember alot of "reductions" in service (except for a period after 9/11) from then until when I retired in '05. Except for 9/11 it always seemed strong, to me. I don't know how much the airline climate has affected how well SLC does, now. Recently I stated that except for ATL, from what I knew SLC was the most profitable hub and I was corrected that SLC was now behind MSP.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-12 10:20:09 and read 2159 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 63):
Then I would argue that DL's own internal profitability system is by the same definition, also an estimate.

Hmm . . . interesting conclusion. I certainly understand the logic. But however DL views profitability and makes asset allocation decisions is probably the "right" methodology.

That said, I'm sure this "right" methodology changes from time to time.

But I'm not one to argue semantics.  
Quoting enilria (Reply 63):
The worst hub in the USA on local mix is now CLT. I think the % local is under 20%.

Yes (and more like 15% for US's operations alone). Now that we've got the Salt Lakers riled, might as well throw Charlotteans into the mix.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-12 10:31:15 and read 2165 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 65):
But however DL views profitability and makes asset allocation decisions is probably the "right" methodology.

That system led them to getting a cr@pton of 50 seat regional jets that were a bad idea at that number of airplanes even with fuel lower. I suspect they biased the system to give the RJs some of the beyond revenue connecting to mainline or gave them a free ride on some of the ground handling costs at hubs. Both are common cheats in airline profitability systems. So, I wouldn't say that leads to good decisions.

They are not alone in that. I think they just went way overboard partially because their pilots allowed it. In a funny way, ALPA did some of the other carriers a long-term favor by limiting them more on RJs.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 65):
Quoting enilria (Reply 63):
The worst hub in the USA on local mix is now CLT. I think the % local is under 20%.

Yes (and more like 15% for US's operations alone). Now that we've got the Salt Lakers riled, might as well throw Charlotteans into the mix.

Well, there's two factors of course. One is the size of the local market and the other is how overbuilt the hub is. CVG might be viable at the current level (probably not). CLT's problem isn't that the local market doesn't exist, the problem is that the hub is overbuilt for the size of it. OTOH, I suspect the demise of the FL hub at ATL and the rise in fares for the N-S corridor will breathe enough fresh air into CLT to even see more expansion.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2012-11-12 11:20:28 and read 2168 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 63):
To get SEA they need to buy AS and they know that. It would also help with LAX. The time will come.

Watch out, that kid will start berating you too!

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-11-12 11:22:45 and read 2171 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 61):
Maybe SLC is the "strongest" of the last 4 and could very well be profitable, but based on the reductions in service at SLC since 2000, I don't think I'd label it as a "strong performer."

What reductions has SLC seen? The number of seats has remained very high post merger in fact i think its higher. All hubs have had some routes dissapear and add others, its natural.

SLC is consistantly profitable and that is very important and probably the reason why Delta has loved it. consistancy is rare in this industry and those are the hubs that have survived the ones that are consistant and can make it when fuel prices are high. I think any airline would be happy with the performance DL has seen from a fortress SLC

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-12 11:58:01 and read 2171 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 68):
What reductions has SLC seen? The number of seats has remained very high post merger in fact i think its higher.

Read post 25 in this thread, which you participated in, but failed to acknowledge many of the facts presented.

Changes In Capacity At DL-NW Hubs Since Merger (by neveragain Oct 13 2012 in Civil Aviation)

2012 seats are 20% less than in 2000 and 25% less than in 2005. 130 fewer average daily departures in 2012 than in 2005.

As presented in this thread, DL's seats were up 1.8% in October 2012 compared with October 2008 (when the merger occurred). (Something strange must have happened in October 2008 to generate this result given the results below--perhaps a strong reaction to the initial days of the financial crisis--but I checked the data again and they were correct.) However, average daily seat and departure numbers for the full year are as follows:

2008: 25,250/301 (DL+NW combined)

2009: 25,650/298

2010: 25,550/295

2011: 23,970/267

2012: 22,975/244

In other words, a slight increase in 2009 followed by a slight decrease in 2010, then larger decreases in 2011 and 2012. All told, DL's departing seat numbers were 9.0% less in 2012 than in 2008. Departure numbers decreased every year since the merger. DL is flying 57 less daily departures from SLC in 2012 than it did in 2008.

DL is not bigger in SLC in 2012 than DL and NW were together in 2008 by all measures, except market share.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 68):
SLC is consistantly profitable.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 68):
probably the reason why Delta has loved it.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 68):
I think any airline would be happy with the performance DL has seen from a fortress SLC

On what basis do you continue to make these statements when the data indicate otherwise? Because you want it to be true? Because you're from Salt Lake City? Because you like to ski there?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-12 12:01:29 and read 2165 times.

Quoting seatback (Reply 62):
Very nice touch. I hear this frequently from ground agents as well.

I think it's sometimes misplaced, though. Many platinums have that status because they live in markets like Detroit or Atlanta and have no choice but to fly Delta. Those of us who live in New York, L.A., or what Delta calls or called "S-curve markets" do have choice and may not have the ability to fly DL enough (from a scheduling perspective) to get that status. I can drop a ton of money on full-fare tickets on DL or AA and still not do better than silver or gold.

Aren't those who fly a fair amount and always buy full fare tickets more valuable than those who fly more but always buy the cheapest ticket they can find?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: COalways
Posted 2012-11-12 12:25:28 and read 2198 times.

The most Profitable Airline Hub in America?

#1-UA (EWR)
#2-US (DCA)
#3-UA (IAH)

So why would UA be envy of ATL when they have the Top 2 profitable hubs in America?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-12 12:32:09 and read 2179 times.

Quoting COalways (Reply 71):
So why would UA be envy of ATL when they have the Top 2 profitable hubs in America?

Maybe because DL is making more money than UA by almost every measure?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-12 13:06:41 and read 2158 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 69):
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 68):
SLC is consistantly profitable.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 68):
probably the reason why Delta has loved it.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 68):
I think any airline would be happy with the performance DL has seen from a fortress SLC

On what basis do you continue to make these statements when the data indicate otherwise?

Why can't any of these three statements, still be true even IF there are fewer seats?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-12 13:19:17 and read 2156 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 73):
Why can't any of these three statements, still be true even IF there are fewer seats?

Fair enough, you have a point indeed.

I don't think the general perception of an airline "loving" an airport, though, doesn't normally involve an airline reducing capacity at that airport.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2012-11-12 13:19:43 and read 2181 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 46):
...and yes, NYC is awful.
Quoting enilria (Reply 54):
I think you are correct. They always say things in the quarterly calls like: "above expectations", "beating plan", "continuing to move in the right direction". Those are all code for its losing money, but we aren't giving up on it. I'm not suggesting they should give up on NYC.

So the point of this is that Delta is but a few months into a giant expansion of its NYC operation. There exists no publicly available data that would give any clue as to the initial performance of the fully built-out LGA hub. So what in the world is the point in trying to make valid observations at this point? We know that Delta is never going to give up this operation, and anyone with any sense at all knows that eventually they'll mint money from their combination of NYC assets. Market growth coupled with capacity constraints ensure this.

Quoting enilria (Reply 54):
One of the reasons AA remains so strong in NYC with really minimal service (arguably, but it's certainly not a "hub") is that they do well to California. DL is an "also-ran" in the market.

My friend, I challenge you to take a closer look at the revenue trends in the NYC Trans-Con markets as well as the in the major CA markets. I think you'll be very surprised to see just how far DL has come.

AA's overall LAX revenue advantage has nearly disappeared versus Delta. In 2Q12 AA generated $2.47M a day in outbound O&D Revenue. Delta generated $2.25M. Delta is bigger in SFO and SAN. In fact, across the entire state of California, Delta generated $5.2M versus $5.0M for AA.

Delta is smaller in JFK-LAX than AA today. But the gap has been shrinking. Delta is #2 in terms of Revenue Share in JFK-LAX, generating more revenue in the market than VX or B6.

And here is something very interesting:

2Q12 revenues for JFK-LAX/SFO/SAN/PDX/SEA
AA $527K per day (Outbound revenue from JFK)
DL $519K per day

So they are nearly neck & neck in trans-cons before the LGA expansion and JFK facility improvements are even in place.

"Also-ran" is clearly the wrong terminology to use there. And here is the real gist of the issue. Delta's biggest competitive obstacle in the JFK-LAX market isn't the competition. The biggest issue is the JFK facility. This issue is well-understood on Virginia Avenue. Once that is resolved, and the full impact of the NYC expansion is baked in, I think you will see Delta making even more significant gains in Revenue Share.

I don't mind the conversation (debate) here, but the tone sometimes strikes me as stuck in the past. A close look at recent trends and an eye to the future ought to dismiss any idea that Delta is permanently disadvantaged in NYC or in the NYC trans-con markets. Physics will win out here. Delta's NYC mass will become a greater factor as we move forward.


Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 70):
The most Profitable Airline Hub in America?

#1-UA (EWR)
#2-US (DCA)
#3-UA (IAH)

So why would UA be envy of ATL when they have the Top 2 profitable hubs in America?

Where are you getting this from?

Every U.S. airline envies ATL to some degree. While it may not be the #1 margin hub in the country, it is near the top. The difference is that the margin is on a revenue number that is dramatically higher than any other hub. It also suffers from few competitive challenges and is insanely operationally efficient. There is a LOT to envy.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-12 14:14:55 and read 2166 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 74):
I don't think the general perception of an airline "loving" an airport, though, doesn't normally involve an airline reducing capacity at that airport.

Unless I'm mistaken, hasn't DL reduced capacity, domestically, systemwide over the last few years, so to single out SLC as being "less" profitable because they've reduced capacity is wrong?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2012-11-12 14:30:53 and read 2180 times.

If anything, DL has increased capacity. They retired the 100 seat DC-9-30 and upgraded to the MD-90. Later this year the B717 and 737-900MAX will come online and now they are hinting the DC-9-50's will hang around for a while longer than originaly planned. Some of the older 767's, A320's and early 757's will retire but they will take delivery of nearly 200 aircraft over the next 2 1/2 years. I am just glad to see the 50 seat RJ's going away!

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-12 14:38:27 and read 2176 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 76):
Unless I'm mistaken, hasn't DL reduced capacity, domestically, systemwide over the last few years, so to single out SLC as being "less" profitable because they've reduced capacity is wrong?

Total domestic departing seats on DL for 2012 were 8.4% less than on DL and NW together in 2008, so SLC fared worse than average. In fact, SLC fared better than every DL hub but ATL and JFK.

ATL: 9.1% (of a very big number)

JFK: -2.5%

SLC: -8.2% (9.0% quoted above included international)

DTW: -10.3%

MSP: -12.0%

MEM: -42.4%

CVG: -63.2%

That said, unless SLC has some sky-high margins, we know it probably has to generate less profit than MSP and DTW because of a much lower volume. As for comparison by profit margin, I'd be surprised if it was more profitable than MSP and DTW, but I admittedly haven't done the analysis.

Let's say CVG's is now "profitable" and that margins have improved. That required a 63.2% reduction in departing seats. If it is now "consistently profitable," surely you wouldn't say that Delta "loved" CVG?

But, in fairness, you weren't the one to make that comment. If you return to the thread I linked above, you'll see that that SLC booster was arguing that the new terminal was needed for capacity and that's why the data were cited. I'd say the data strongly indicate that that's probably not the case, unless DL is planning on some major buildup that we don't know about.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
There exists no publicly available data that would give any clue as to the initial performance of the fully built-out LGA hub.

This is true.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
Delta is smaller in JFK-LAX than AA today. But the gap has been shrinking. Delta is #2 in terms of Revenue Share in JFK-LAX, generating more revenue in the market than VX or B6.

Only because it carries more passengers.

But enilria is right in that DL's yield lags competition. (It may now very well be higher than B6, but I haven't seen recent data.)

It may be trending in the right direction, but aren't we talking about profitability today?

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
Once that is resolved, and the full impact of the NYC expansion is baked in, I think you will see Delta making even more significant gains in Revenue Share.

Certainly possible.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
2Q12 revenues for JFK-LAX/SFO/SAN/PDX/SEA
AA $527K per day (Outbound revenue from JFK)
DL $519K per day

Only relevant if you also want to compare ASMs.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
Where are you getting this from?

Scott Kirby of US stated that at an industry conference earlier this year.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
Every U.S. airline envies ATL to some degree.

If it were offered to UA, I'm sure it wouldn't take long for UA to accept.




Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 77):
If anything, DL has increased capacity.


No. LGA has grown dramatically. ATL has grown. JFK the same. Not enough to offset the fact that (1) CVG and MEM have shrunk dramatically, and (2) DTW, MSP, and SLC all got 10% "haircuts."

But most airlines have shrunk domestically since the financial crisis, which coincides with the date of the DL-NW merger closing

[Edited 2012-11-14 20:24:07 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-12 15:18:06 and read 2181 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 78):
Let's say CVG's is now "profitable" and that margins have improved. That required a 63.2% reduction in departing seats. If it is now "consistently profitable," surely you wouldn't say that Delta "loved" CVG?

DL and CVG/Cincinnati have a love/hate relationship with each other. I won't extrapolate because I've pretty much said this a million times before  

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Flaps
Posted 2012-11-12 15:40:33 and read 2169 times.

I skipped over the last 20 or so replies so I apologize if this has been said but as a very loyal DL customer I'll throw in the following:

- Reliable frequent service to a very extensive set of destinations.
- Good geographic hub locations throughout the US.
- Decent customer service, (I say decent in comparison to other industries) downright outstanding by US airline standards.

DL might not be the best or biggest in many individual comparisons but they are very consistent. I know what to expect on board, I know what to expect on the ground. When there is a delay DL more often than not has already made alternate accommodations for me before I even ask. I can only remember having to stand in line one time in the past year (well over 200 segments) for such a reason and that was only because the last flight of the day had left. They treat people pretty well and they make an effort. They are very good at the little things that keep people coming back.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-12 16:01:29 and read 2178 times.

Delta is one of the best-managed network carriers in the world.

Delta is sincerely thankful for your business and treats you as a person of value.

Delta is a HIGHLY innovative, forward-thinking company that delivers on its promises and doesn't speak through the side of its mouth.

Delta may have its flaws, and may not be the best with mileage redemption, but it is at least reliable. It is so worthy of my respect.

I never thought this day would come, but I am sincerely envious of every Delta elite flyer on this thread.

Sincerely,

Beyond disappointed United elite flier,
Who has come to accept the fact that UA has failed me time and time again, and probably will fail me again.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-12 17:05:51 and read 2152 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 77):
Later this year the B717 and 737-900MAX will come online and now they are hinting the DC-9-50's will hang around for a while longer than originaly planned.

We are not in 2013 yet...  

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2012-11-12 18:24:24 and read 2145 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 78):
Only because it carries more passengers.

But enilria is right in that DL's yield lags competition. (It may now very well be higher than B6, but I haven't seen recent data.)

It may be trending in the right direction, but aren't we talking about profitability today?

Yields aren't the same as profits? Part of the reason that AA and UA enjoy higher yields in these markets is because a significant part of their capacity offering is in premium cabins. These products are much more expensive to offer. The truth is that even on lower average fares, Delta could very well be more profitable on these routes due to lower CASMs.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 78):
Scott Kirby of US stated that at an industry conference earlier this year.

Airline hub profitability is not static and never has been.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-12 18:42:12 and read 2124 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 84):
Part of the reason that AA and UA enjoy higher yields in these markets is because a significant part of their capacity offering is in premium cabins.

VX, with its denser configuration than DL, also enjoys higher yields.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-12 18:46:54 and read 2131 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 84):
Yields aren't the same as profits? Part of the reason that AA and UA enjoy higher yields in these markets is because a significant part of their capacity offering is in premium cabins.
VX has higher yields than DL on JFK-SFO and LAX the last time I checked, with much less premium capacity, not to mention, zero lie-flat seats. And I'm sure VX has much lower costs. May not be around much longer, but I'm sure it has lower costs than DL.

And I did bother to look it up. B6 does have lower yields than DL in the JFK-SFO and LAX markets:

JFK-LAX, 2Q 2012 (most recently available) nonstop yield (cents per mile)

UA: 18.92

AA: 16.43

VX: 14.11 (20% higher than DL)

DL: 11.67

B6: 9.81

JFK-SFO

UA: 20.67

AA: 13.03

VX: 12.77 (15% higher than DL)

DL: 11.12

B6: 9.24

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 84):
Airline hub profitability is not static and never has been.

Of course it's not. Is anyone saying it isn't? It changes every day with the price of fuel, for one.

If you're trying to say DL's profitability in the NYC market will improve, it probably will. But I think most of the points being made were about today.

[Edited 2012-11-12 18:49:53]

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2012-11-12 19:12:50 and read 2123 times.

Quoting COalways (Reply 71):
The most Profitable Airline Hub in America?

These statistics are estimates and are margins based. To compare US's largely niche "hub" at DCA to DL's megahub at ATL is misleading.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 77):
If anything, DL has increased capacity.

No, as per the previously shown statistics, DL has cut capacity systemwide quite a bit since the merger.

Jeremy

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-12 19:18:20 and read 2129 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 86):
But I think most of the points being made were about today.

And yet there were those on this thread that, when talking about AA, were saying that watch out for AA when they get their act together (whenever that is) and AA will have a boatload of new a/c, compared to DL, etc., which are all conjecture and looking at the future, not what is happening, today. The same with UA, they're looking at them in the future, when they get their integration problems solved, not today.

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 35):
Anderson took the planes, routes and hubs that were complimentary to building DL and shed the unions that would have hindered the merger (example - UA/CO).

"Shed the unions"?? You mean when the employees voted to NOT have representation?

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 35):
The ready reserve program, while a revolving door of entry-level labor for above wing and below wing operations, is a genius maneuver to keep labor costs low.

Which was started in the mid 80s and hardly a "genius" move by current management. I dare say any of this management team was even with the company when this was thought of.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-11-12 19:21:10 and read 2150 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 63):
The worst hub in the USA on local mix is now CLT. I think the % local is under 20%.

CLT is an interesting one. In the September edition of the US Airway Magazine, Doug Parker stated that US has more flights from CLT than BA at LHR or AF at CDG. If that's true then I guess it is fair to say that CLT is over served.

Nonetheless, doesn't it have very low user costs which makes it better for a connector hub than IAD or PHL, and most definitely MIA?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2012-11-12 19:34:21 and read 2143 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 85):
VX, with its denser configuration than DL, also enjoys higher yields.

True. But its kind if irrelevant, no?

Quoting neveragain (Reply 86):
VX has higher yields than DL on JFK-SFO and LAX the last time I checked, with much less premium capacity, not to mention, zero lie-flat seats. And I'm sure VX has much lower costs. May not be around much longer, but I'm sure it has lower costs than DL.

What I said above.

Here is the thing. My only point here is there was a general tone in some of these comments that Delta just underperforms in trans-cons. It does versus some carriers in some markets, but it certainly isn't an "also-ran" as Enilria indicated. More importantly, any discussion of past performance is just that...history. Its interesting to recount but a more intriguing discussion relates to what is going to happen in the future. You can't often forecast a carrier making significant gains in a competitive market, but I think that Delta is going to have a very good next 12-24 months in the NYC and Trans-Con markets.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-13 05:11:49 and read 2119 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 88):
And yet there were those on this thread that, when talking about AA, were saying that watch out for AA when they get their act together (whenever that is) and AA will have a boatload of new a/c, compared to DL, etc., which are all conjecture and looking at the future, not what is happening, today. The same with UA, they're looking at them in the future, when they get their integration problems solved, not today.

Certainly not me. DL is indisputably the best positioned of all 3, for now at least. Anything different is contingent upon speculation, and, as you allude to, colored by biases of rooting for the "home team."

That said, I don't understand the sensitivity in this thread (or in most other posts). Why can't, for example, people acknowledge or contemplate the idea that DL could very well be losing money in NYC today and may very well not "love" SLC, or at least not need additional capacity there? Instead people seem to grasp tighter on to their rigidly-held beliefs and find ways to rationalize them.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 90):
It does versus some carriers in some markets, but it certainly isn't an "also-ran" as Enilria indicated.

I personally try not to use such emotionally charged words, but I'm sure I fail from time to time.

In any case, if the point of your argument is that the jury is still out on DL's performance in NYC, I agree. I think relating that underperformance solely to inadequate facilities is a bit of an oversimplification (and, yes, I've connected through JFK plenty of times). New terminals arguably weren't of much help to AA. The underperformance is probably most attributable to the fact that DL has changed its service patterns at JFK (and now LGA) so much in the last 5 years that it is to be expected during the buildup phase.

But help me with this one. Why do you claim the following?

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 90):
True. But its kind if irrelevant, no?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-13 08:10:39 and read 2088 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 91):
Certainly not me. DL is indisputably the best positioned of all 3, for now at least. Anything different is contingent upon speculation, and, as you allude to, colored by biases of rooting for the "home team."

I think what I was alluding to was an apples to oranges comparison.....comparing DL's performance, now to what AA and UA will do in the future, just to make them look better in the comparison than DL. Strange discussion tactic. And I wasn't focusing on you, either.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 91):
and may very well not "love" SLC, or at least not need additional capacity there?

I think you're too hung up on the "love" for SLC statement.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 91):
Instead people seem to grasp tighter on to their rigidly-held beliefs and find ways to rationalize them.

That goes BOTH ways, friend. Those that disparage DL (just because of their dislike) are just as guilty of this. All I try to do is give some historical perspective with having worked for 23 years in SLC and my 33 years with DL. I do this because some on here were very young when some of this happened. Also, some on here seem to think that airline history began the day they became interested in it. I can't change my "rigidly-held" beliefs if there's not a reason to change them.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-13 08:15:55 and read 2086 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 92):
I think you're too hung up on the "love" for SLC statement.

Wouldn't be the first time.

But I think there's a pretty good general idea of what "love" on this board means, annoying as such word usage can be. There are weekly posts on airline X not showing airport Y "love." Never in these posts is "love" equated with shrinking service.

If DL "loves" Salt Lakers because most of them fly DL, OK, I guess.

Quoting mayor (Reply 92):
All I try to do is give some historical perspective with having worked for 23 years in SLC and my 33 years with DL.

Which is much appreciated from someone with an interest in airline history (going back many years from before I was born).

Quoting mayor (Reply 92):
I can't change my "rigidly-held" beliefs if there's not a reason to change them.

Comment not really meant for you, but understood.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: holzmann
Posted 2012-11-13 09:15:30 and read 2075 times.

As a customer who must regularly choose between the major players for business travel, I simply prefer the Delta Experience the most. From the fun safety videos, to the genuinely cheerful and polite FAs, to the leather seating, to the on-board WiFi, to the Biscoff cookies, Delta makes me a happy customer. I can't say the same for any of the other mainlines. And from their Habitat plane to their "Spirit" aircraft to their customer service call centers to the Hartsfield-Jackson Delta employee shuttles that read, "Carrying the Best Employees in the World" it seems apparent to me as a customer that Delta is at least trying when it comes to the whole B2E relations game.

I would like to reiterate as well that every single UAL FA I have ever met has come off as simply dissatisfied, disgruntled, unhappy, and generally unpleasant. The different between them and Delta FAs is night and day.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-13 09:21:00 and read 2075 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 67):
Watch out, that kid will start berating you too!

Like most other people. :p

Quoting COalways (Reply 71):
#3-UA (IAH)
Quoting COalways (Reply 71):

The most Profitable Airline Hub in America?

Ahh yes, I forgot UA management is at war with the residents of the 3rd most profitable hub in America.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
There exists no publicly available data that would give any clue as to the initial performance of the fully built-out LGA hub.

Yes, but new capacity rarely performs well out of the gate, but it is also true that initial performance is not much of an indicator of the future.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
We know that Delta is never going to give up this operation

Never is a big word, but certainly with the current management I agree.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
and anyone with any sense at all knows that eventually they'll mint money from their combination of NYC assets

Well, I have some sense and I do not think it is a forgone conclusion that they will mint money in NYC. There are too many variables. If US/AA merge and DP sells the Shuttle, the Eagle slots at LGA, and parts of AA's JFK operation to B6 in order to tie them into OW (which is very very plausible) I think it gets much harder for DL. I also think that you discount the fickle-ness of New Yorkers. Most of the New Yorkers I know make fun of Delta as a Southern airline. Loyalty in New York is more complicated than Atlanta. Anything could happen. Don't count your chickens.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
AA's overall LAX revenue advantage has nearly disappeared versus Delta. In 2Q12 AA generated $2.47M a day in outbound O&D Revenue. Delta generated $2.25M. Delta is bigger in SFO and SAN. In fact, across the entire state of California, Delta generated $5.2M versus $5.0M for AA.
Quoting neveragain (Reply 78):
But enilria is right in that DL's yield lags competition. (It may now very well be higher than B6, but I haven't seen recent data.)
Quoting jetlanta (Reply 84):
Yields aren't the same as profits? Part of the reason that AA and UA enjoy higher yields in these markets is because a significant part of their capacity offering is in premium cabins.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 85):
VX, with its denser configuration than DL, also enjoys higher yields.
Quoting neveragain (Reply 86):
B6 does have lower yields than DL in the JFK-SFO and LAX markets:
Quoting neveragain (Reply 86):
UA: 18.92
AA: 16.43
VX: 14.11 (20% higher than DL)
DL: 11.67

Thanks to Jetlanta for saving me the time of pulling the data. I think you completely made my point and I appreciate that. DL's yield which directly translates to profit margin given equal load factors is terrible. Again, VX's premium is particularly damning. Basically DL has been chasing market share which gets you nothing in terms of profitability. The 20-40% yield gap is incredible. That's why they are putting wide-bodies in. It's also why they should be running newspaper ads right now demanding the Port lift the perimeter rule which New Yorkers should support and helps them immensely with their yield gap.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 89):
CLT is an interesting one. In the September edition of the US Airway Magazine, Doug Parker stated that US has more flights from CLT than BA at LHR or AF at CDG. If that's true then I guess it is fair to say that CLT is over served.

I think it is true. That hub is huge. It's basically a satellite of ATL, however. I still think as WN draws down in ATL it gives CLT a lot of breathing room.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: dalfannyc
Posted 2012-11-13 09:34:14 and read 2080 times.

The question is only "What is Delta Doing Right?", it is "What are its competitors doing wrong?"

As someone who is a strong advocate for DL (you can see from my name), but currently lives in a town where they are not the dominant carrier, I can say that the two main competitors (UA, AA) have spent their time competting for the most bad press over the last few months.

Every time I opened a airline news email or newsbrief, I read about the poor customer treatment by these two carriers.
If you recall:
Losing a 10 year old girl at ORD
Reservations systems failing
Wide epidemic of cancelled flights
The list did go on and on...

All DL has to do to be "doing things right" is to do right by the passengers. I have not had a smooth reservation on UA (Star Gold) in months, but as it offers the best schedule for my work, I am forced to take them. I am let down time and time again that the CO of old has all but disapeared and the passengers get treated so poorly.
I don't think I'll bother tackling AA at this time...

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-13 09:41:46 and read 2071 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 95):
Most of the New Yorkers I know make fun of Delta as a Southern airline.

They make fun of almost ANYTHING outside of New York.





[Edited 2012-11-13 09:54:36]

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-13 10:03:36 and read 2074 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 95):
Thanks to Jetlanta for saving me the time of pulling the data.

I'll pretend my feelings aren't hurt.

Quoting enilria (Reply 95):
Well, I have some sense and I do not think it is a forgone conclusion that they will mint money in NYC. There are too many variables.
Quoting enilria (Reply 95):
Anything could happen. Don't count your chickens.

I certainly agree. I don't know how anyone in the industry could argue otherwise in good faith. "Winning in New York" is a big IF. Things may be going in DL's direction for now, and the chances may be that they will continue to, but any prognostications about future outcomes are just that--prognostications and speculation. They may be informed prognostications and speculation, but they're still rife with uncertainty.

Quoting enilria (Reply 95):
I still think as WN draws down in ATL it gives CLT a lot of breathing room.

I have no reason to disagree, as I haven't really considered the question, but am interested to hear more your thought process. Less competition for connecting traffic to Florida due to a pulldown of connecting activity in ATL leads to higher yields for US out of Florida? I guess volumes could increase as well . . . but do you think it makes long-term sense for US's operation at CLT to be a 90% connecting operation?

Can't we expect WN to increase point-to-point flying to Florida bypassing ATL?

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-11-13 10:49:21 and read 2068 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 78):
That said, unless SLC has some sky-high margins, we know it probably has to generate less profit than MSP and DTW because of a much lower volume

It probably does make less than MSP but its profitable and serves a totally different geographical area and market so why does it really matter. I dont remember when anyone said on here SLC is more profitable than those cities, do you? It is indeed consistantly profitable and Delta does love it for that reason. Consistantly making money is rare in this industry and that is why Delta is so happy with it and wont leave. Also remember SLC is very cheap to operate from both expenses and has very few delays.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 78):
But, in fairness, you weren't the one to make that comment. If you return to the thread I linked above, you'll see that that SLC booster was arguing that the new terminal was needed for capacity and that's why the data were cited. I'd say the data strongly indicate that that's probably not the case, unless DL is planning on some major buildup that we don't know about.

DL has way too many CRJ-200 only gates and not enough gates that can handle larger mainline or larger RJs. That is a fact and the new terminals being built are designed to solve this exact problem.

Delta has limitations at SLC and has to use way more CRJ-200s than it wants. SLC has a ton of CRj-200 only gates that is a fact. Its not the number of gates its what the gates can handle that is the problem. Delta worked with the airport planners and is 100% in favor of the new construction and wants it for a reason. It has to do with oil prices and SLC being a long term hub not that they are planning a major gang busters exapansion its just they want more larger planes and less CRJ-200s. Its about oil prices and you can see they already have less 200s out there. No one is saying Delta is planning some major expansion but it is limited right now especially since it is trying to limit 200 flying. I dont remember anyone saying Delta is planning a major SLC expansion but they will have more options once the new terminals are in for less 200s and more 700/900/mitsubishsi/319 etc etc. They will have to ability to add a few cities like MKE or RDU or PIT back at the main prime connection bank time once there are more mainline gates and we all know those routes wont work not at the main connection bank times. Delta tried MKE in a CRJ-700 not in one of the two main banks and its gone. If they could fly it with the CRJ-200 i bet they would but the gates are limiting them. That along with places like RDU or PIT or CMH have chances of coming back in the future.

You posted these numbers. There is no way to know how many errors you made. If it were a user like enilria i would trust the numbers since he clearly know how to do this stuff but i dont know how many mistakes you made so i wont use them its not a fact and who knows how accurately you did this   I could go and post some numbers also

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-13 11:17:12 and read 2068 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 99):
DL has way too many CRJ-200 only gates and not enough gates that can handle larger mainline or larger RJs. That is a fact and the new terminals being built are designed to solve this exact problem.

How many mainline/RJ gates does DL need at SLC? On the day of the DL/WA merger, IIRC, we had 162 MAINLINE flights a day, with only 26 gates. I'm not sure how much that flight total went up, over the years, but I don't think it was much. Also, during that time, there were times of the day, during the smaller banks, when only one cocourse was being used, for the most part, so there were plenty of gates available for the amount of mainline flights.



I should have added that I do think that SLC needs a new terminal, but not necessarily for gate space. Just to not have to push an a/c out to the end of the concourse, backwards, would be a big improvement and a time saver, too. Before the WA merger, when DL's gate was D-1, we would back the flights out tail first towards the concourse and then pull the a/c, at least as far as D-5 before we unhooked, just to protect the connector between C & D concourse from damage. The way the terminal is set up, now, there is no room for a/c to pass each other between concourses. It doesn't seem possible, but "D" concourse is about 26 years old, now......"C" of course, being much older.

[Edited 2012-11-13 12:15:21]

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: cslusarc
Posted 2012-11-13 14:28:39 and read 2082 times.

My main beef with DL, is that it announced in 2008 that it was putting the Thompson Vantage seat on its 767s. The first 764 went in for conversion in January 2009. Now 4 years later DL is just starting to progress through its 763ER fleet. I would have thought that DL should've completed its flat-bed conversion on the 763s before it started the 744s.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2012-11-13 15:50:35 and read 2057 times.

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 105):

But the topic is what is delta doing right.........

Employee relations and profit sharing are other noteworthy additions.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2012-11-13 16:43:57 and read 2051 times.

The topic title should be, "What are airlines doing right?"

Even carriers in the middle of integrations and bankruptcy are doing pretty well. Almost all of them outside of it are doing very well, DL being one of them. My answer to the question would be that the market has adjusted into the airlines' favor.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2012-11-13 16:48:02 and read 2069 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 107):

Then start your own topic. It pains some that Delta is doing some things better than their
Competitors.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: neveragain
Posted 2012-11-13 16:59:07 and read 2072 times.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 108):
Then start your own topic. It pains some that Delta is doing some things better than their
Competitors.

What a sensitive, defensive bunch.

But I guess every airline has them.

Better that than completely bitter and disenchanted, I suppose.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2012-11-13 17:05:36 and read 2086 times.

DELTA seems to be doing everything right! They're making $, they're innovative, dynamic, thirsty for growth and fly everywhere...I don't see anything wrong w/DELTA.  

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-11-13 17:24:56 and read 2097 times.

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 105):
My main beef with DL, is that it announced in 2008 that it was putting the Thompson Vantage seat on its 767s. The first 764 went in for conversion in January 2009. Now 4 years later DL is just starting to progress through its 763ER fleet. I would have thought that DL should've completed its flat-bed conversion on the 763s before it started the 744s.

I disagree. The 744s fly some of the longest routes in the DL system, second only to the 77L. For the routes served by the 744, having flat beds is probably more important than the shorter routes served by the 763ERs.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: mogandoCI
Posted 2012-11-13 17:31:08 and read 2082 times.

Quoting delta2ual (Thread starter):

-DL loses a billion dollars a year in NYC
-DL can’t compete with AA & UA in Latin America
-DL loses money in SLC & LAX
-DL has inferior hubs vs. AA & UA (I would argue that UA does have the best hubs in the US)
-DL’s Asian portfolio is inferior to UA’s
-DL's "split-hub" operation in NYC is a mistake
-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

-DL loses a billion dollars a year in NYC

Hard to imagine that's the case, unless they're spending too much on their ad campaign.

-DL can’t compete with AA & UA in Latin America

No one can compete against Miami, so it's not a DL-only problem

-DL loses money in SLC & LAX

They're struggling in LAX, but SLC should be fine if it's right-sized. It provides unique geographic coverage between MSP, LAX, and Alaska at SEA.

-DL has inferior hubs vs. AA & UA (I would argue that UA does have the best hubs in the US)

DL hubs in smaller cities but frequently being king of the hill, which cancels the downsides.

-DL’s Asian portfolio is inferior to UA’s

I'd say DL is definitely comparable to UA. They even have unique routes like Nagoya. They also have a true NRT hub instead of a tiny focus city that UA has.

-DL's "split-hub" operation in NYC is a mistake

A split hub like LHR/LGW makes sense - one is for business and transit, one is mostly for leisure O&D. Splitting between JFK and LGA when both are business oriented (international vs. domestic) is just an odd arrangement.

-DL's JFK facilities are 3rd world (they kinda are); and even when they are done with the upgrades, they will still be inferior

Definitely true. Anyone arriving at JFK T-3 just went through a space-time warp to go back 50 years.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: B757forever
Posted 2012-11-13 17:51:05 and read 2087 times.

1. Making money. (most in DL history)
2. Paying down debt aggressively.
3. Controlling costs.
4. Managing CAPEX well.
5. Building consistent product / branding.
6. Modernizing existing fleet affordably. (interiors, winglets etc)
7. Growing fleet affordably (MD90's, B717's B737-900's)
8. Maximizing use of current fleet.
9. Managing labor relations very well. (profit sharing and shared rewards)
10. Running a good operation (on-time, bags, completion factor etc)
11. New delta.com
12. Bought a refinery (some may disagree but this will save big $$$)
13. Managing IROPS much better than in the past.

I'm sure there are a few I have left off. As with all airlines, they are far from perfect but I feel DL is making an enormous effort to give passengers what they want: safe, reliable, prompt transport (when things are going well) and by giving them better options when things do not go so well (IROPS)

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: NWAESC
Posted 2012-11-13 18:40:58 and read 2074 times.

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 35):
DL did well to get rid of many expensive PMNW (historically very pro-union) folks prior to the union voting

Interestingly (or not), NW had early out language in it's ramp CBA. Ahead of the vote, there were a few hundred unused spots "left over" from previous years. The IAM asked DL to allow those to be used, but were turned down.

Quoting mayor (Reply 38):
Unions are gone, most of the people are still there.

Yep.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 53):
9. State of the art training facilities with constant training, both hands-on, classroom and computer-based instruction.

I'm gonna disagree here. IMO, the training program- both content and delivery- are seriously deficient.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 109):
What a sensitive, defensive bunch.

Indeed.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 113):
2. Paying down debt aggressively.
3. Controlling costs.
4. Managing CAPEX well.

+1 to all of the above, though for #4, there's definitely room for improvement at the station(s) level.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: denverdanny
Posted 2012-11-14 06:04:01 and read 2047 times.

I only few Delta once, back in 2004. I booked a flight from Denver to Rome via Cincinnati. It was a real steal of a price. Anyway, on the way back, we stopped again in Cincinnati. Our plane back to Denver was broken. After a couple of gate changes and walking this way and that, they found a plane to replace ours. It didn't turn out to be a horrible delay like I've seen on other airlines. I was happy. So, I saw my trip with Delta as positive all the way around. They were accommodating and the customer service was at least sufficient. No problems. I would fly them again.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: huxrules
Posted 2012-11-14 21:13:17 and read 1964 times.

I'd say delta has focused on building a better product since their merger. And they have. It might not be lightyears ahead of everyone but they have managed to move forward while the rest of the US majors have slipped backwards. My recent flight from ATL to JNB was a dream. Over the last two years they have pulled me away from CO and I'm sure other business travelers have had the same experience. I don't live in a hub city so I have a choice.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: airtechy
Posted 2012-11-14 21:27:31 and read 1967 times.

I have been a loyal Delta customer since I first flew them in 1966 on a DC-7.....TYS to ATL. During the years, there have been low spots and high spots, but the customer facing people that I have dealt with have always been great. Especially in the 70's when money wasn't looked at under a green eye shade, they made some great accommodations for me...once turning an aircraft around on the taxiway to pick me up.

I'm sure that some of the iterations of management were viewed better than others, but in general the employees never let me... as a customer... feel that they were unhappy. As a result, I am now a million miler plus.

The last merger with Northwest will go down as one of the best executed mergers in aviation history.....and they have had others in the past that have gone just as well.

One major complaint seems to be with Skymiles redemption availability. If they can address that issue without breaking the bank, a lot the medallion flyers will be certainly be a lot happier and have more reason to fly Delta.

Jim

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2012-11-16 08:14:51 and read 1947 times.

There is a nice article about DL on the front page of WSJ with nifty pics!!!

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: n471wn
Posted 2012-11-16 12:00:12 and read 1933 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 112):
There is a nice article about DL on the front page of WSJ with nifty pics!!!

Indeed a great article and one that rebuffs all this propaganda about how you can only make money with new aircraft. Delta and Allegiant are showing how keeping and acquring older aircraft is a smart (and profitable) strategy. It has been painful to watch other airlines retire their fleets prematurely.

Topic: RE: What Is Delta Doing Right? Your Opinion Please?
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-16 12:20:08 and read 1931 times.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 96):
Things may be going in DL's direction for now,

They are in terms of market share, but profits could be improving or getting worse. Unknown.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 96):
I have no reason to disagree, as I haven't really considered the question, but am interested to hear more your thought process.
Quoting neveragain (Reply 96):
but do you think it makes long-term sense for US's operation at CLT to be a 90% connecting operation?

I think that it's pretty clear that WN is taking apart the hub in Atlanta. ATL has existed as a pipe to Florida from the NE, particularly for AirTran. The elimination of all those Florida connecting seats improves yields on NE to Florida a lot. That helps US immensely since CLT is essentially a clone of ATL (it helps DL even more). To whatever extent CLT is now profitable (I would expect it is marginally profitable) that should improve performance in CLT. That could either allow higher profits or justify further expansion. In general I agree that the local market is not big enough to sustain this hub. Either the local market will grow to support it, or we are just witnessing a bubble that will be rightsized when another LCC gains traction on NE-Florida and sucks traffic back out of CLT.


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