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Topic: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: tioloko100
Posted 2012-11-19 17:27:12 and read 6218 times.

For the last 20 years we have been seeing a lot of innovation in all sectors including the airline industry but sadly the last new innovation in the airline sector which featured all transgender cabin crews failed to remain in the sky for long as it was ground weeks after its inaugural flight in Thailand. This is uncommon to the industry but i thought this could have been the industry's Gangnam Style.

http://flyingactive.com/content/69-t...nd-s-ladyboy-airline-grounded.html

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2012-11-19 19:13:24 and read 6223 times.

Can't say I'm overly surprised. They had a well, interesting, idea. Plus a one aircraft operation puts you at a disadvantage if it goes tech.
Blue

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2012-11-20 11:22:26 and read 6224 times.

I guess this means that there are no longer any 312's remaining in passenger service..

Martijn

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: DrColenzo
Posted 2012-11-20 12:12:07 and read 6223 times.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 3):
I doubt transgender crews were ever going to bring enough perverts to run profitably, even in Thailand.

Well, transgender people are not perverts in themselves and we all have our kinks and fetishes, so I cannot judge the airline on that score.

However, you are quite right, a similar marketing concept such as the Hooters one didn't work and this would have been no different; I guess the people that came up with this idea must feel like a bunch of dicks right now...

Sorry, that was an awful pun   

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: kaitak
Posted 2012-11-20 12:33:18 and read 6221 times.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 3):
If Hooters was never able to make it work with hot busty chicks, I doubt transgender crews were ever going to bring enough perverts to run profitably, even in Thailand.

Well, that's a bit unfair; ever think that someone thought these people could have career aspirations beyond just been dancing girls and participating in the sex trade? Airlines need crewmember and the airline judged these people able to do that job, which they did; I certainly don't think it was with the intention of attracting "perverts" to Thailand!

Many "western" airlines - even AF, but also BA, AA, KL and LH - employ transsexual crewmembers and thankfully, EU law makes discrimination against them illegal. Live and let live!

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-20 12:48:52 and read 6221 times.

Quoting tioloko100 (Thread starter):
This is uncommon to the industry but i thought this could have been the industry's Gangnam Style.

Hahahahaha. That's pretty great. Sad news though.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 3):
.
If Hooters was never able to make it work with hot busty chicks, I doubt transgender crews were ever going to bring enough perverts to run profitably, even in Thailand.

There is nothing perverted about being transgender. Most mature/civilized humans are aware of this and despite what you may falsely believe, the airline industry is anything but fighting to stay "normalized" when it comes to gender identity/sexual orientation, etc.

Get with the times.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: francoflier
Posted 2012-11-20 13:50:44 and read 6218 times.

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 4):
Well, transgender people are not perverts in themselves and we all have our kinks and fetishes, so I cannot judge the airline on that score.
Quoting kaitak (Reply 5):
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 6):

I was misunderstood. I have nothing against transgenders or any other.

The perverts I'm referring to are the passengers who would want to go out of their way to fly with an airline where the crews exert some kind of sexual attraction on them. Why else would people want to fly on an airline whose crews are so explicitly selected? The same goes for Hooters airlines, where, presumably, people would choose them to be served a half can of Sprite by a big busted lady... I call that perversion, even though I know it does help businesses of all kinds.

And, yes, I've eaten at Hooters several times.
It was for the wings, I swear!   

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: rlwynn
Posted 2012-11-20 13:59:34 and read 6218 times.

Why would anybody think this would work? And who would be stupid enough to put up the money for it to run? Amazing.

[Edited 2012-11-20 14:00:50]

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-20 14:15:53 and read 6218 times.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 9):
I was misunderstood. I have nothing against transgenders or any other.

Your comment was still inappropriate. You made a generalization without any basis of information.

If you actually did some fact-checking, you would realize that Thailand happens to be a country that is very open to transexuals, and ladyboys are widely employed in the service industry. It just so happens that when PC Air intended to launch its initial charter operations, it received an overwhelming number of applications from transvestites and transexual applicants, and decided to set itself apart from other airlines by interviewing and hiring a certain number of them (in addition to its male and female staff) as long as they met the selection criteria.

Contrary to your assumption, the airline did not design its business model around purely staffing ladyboy flight attendants and using it as a marketing ploy to lure a particular traveling segment. In fact, I don't even believe that the majority of its attendant base comprised of people from this category. The move simply represented the airlines' stance on being very pro-equality and tolerant in a world that otherwise generally views transgenders with much prejudice and bias. I'm sure plenty of these applicants were seeking positions at several different airlines and encountered difficulties in the hiring process along the way due to the varying attitudes among other network carriers.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 9):
The perverts I'm referring to are the passengers who would want to go out of their way to fly with an airline where the crews exert some kind of sexual attraction on them.

Again, another huge generalization on your part. Do you have a first-hand experience to back this up?

The Hooters to PC Air comparison is stupid and baseless. One bases their business specifically on branding the "hooters girls" with revealing outfits trying to play up sex appeal. That was never the case with PC Air. They were simply and purely an airline that was more open to the idea of staffing ladyboys, and that is all.

[Edited 2012-11-20 14:22:45]

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: starrymarkb
Posted 2012-11-20 14:22:23 and read 6217 times.

I hope everyone finds new employment elsewhere in the industry...

Ironic that this gets posted on the Transgender Day of Remembrence

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: KC135Hydraulics
Posted 2012-11-20 14:30:39 and read 6216 times.

The name certainly does sound unappealing, though. LadyBoy?

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: iowaman
Posted 2012-11-20 14:31:07 and read 6216 times.

This is not a debate on whether transgenders are perverts. Please stay on topic and respectful to avoid this thread from being locked and/or additional posts deleted.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: DrColenzo
Posted 2012-11-20 14:35:57 and read 6218 times.

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 11):
Transgender Day of Remembrence

Very noble of you to point that out and I do think we should all take a second to remember that Transgender People are human beings that have been unfairly discriminated against.

http://www.transgenderdor.org/

Yep, I made a coarse joke earlier - my bad, apologies.

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 11):

I hope everyone finds new employment elsewhere in the industry...

Hear, hear! It is a tough time for everyone at the moment regardless of what industry we work in, but particularly in the constant flux of the airline business and I think you have made two very excellent points this evening.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: starrymarkb
Posted 2012-11-20 14:38:47 and read 6218 times.

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 12):

The name certainly does sound unappealing, though. LadyBoy?

The airlines actual name is PC Air - Ladyboy airlines was the media's name for them *rolls eyes*

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: DrColenzo
Posted 2012-11-20 14:45:46 and read 6218 times.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 13):

This is not a debate on whether transgenders are perverts. Please stay on topic and respectful to avoid this thread from being locked and/or additional posts deleted.

Sorry, I think I speak for quite a few of us a-net members on this thread when I say that is a very, very unnecessary intervention on the part of a moderator.

We are discussing the failure of an airline aimed at a particular market sector, which is the transgender market and the market for those who want to fly a transgender airline. That is completely within the spirit of Airliners.net and very much in line with the usual discussions we have on these pages, for example we have discussed Halal food before, bible quotes included with meals on Alaskan Airlines (was it Alaskan Airlines?) and many other similar topics and this is one of those.

Just as there is a demand for Hooters, there is also a Transgender market, or a gay, lesbian, bisexual market and believe me, airlines do cater for this and these are all human beings with feelings, emotions and more importantly money to burn on flights, which is what we are talking about here.

Because of this and the way we are discussing the subject in no way have we veered off topic to any real extent.

Also, if someone made a racist or bigoted comment of any other nature, then we would all be up in arms: just because we are discussing an airline run by Transgender people for a particular market doesn't mean we act in an inappropriate way in referring to them.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-20 14:48:57 and read 6218 times.

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 16):
Sorry, I think I speak for quite a few of us a-net members on this thread when I say that is a very, very unnecessary intervention on the part of a moderator.

   Completely agree 100%.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: iowaman
Posted 2012-11-20 14:56:45 and read 6218 times.

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 16):

Sorry, I think I speak for quite a few of us a-net members on this thread when I say that is a very, very unnecessary intervention on the part of a moderator.

We are discussing the failure of an airline aimed at a particular market sector, which is the transgender market and the market for those who want to fly a transgender airline. That is completely within the spirit of Airliners.net and very much in line with the usual discussions we have on these pages, for example we have discussed Halal food before, bible quotes included with meals on Alaskan Airlines (was it Alaskan Airlines?) and many other similar topics and this is one of those.
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 17):
Completely agree 100%.

I'm not sure if you guys saw some of the posts I removed. Please keep it respectful is all I'm asking.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-20 17:58:03 and read 4981 times.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 8):
The perverts I'm referring to are the passengers who would want to go out of their way to fly with an airline where the crews exert some kind of sexual attraction on them.

Yes, that business model would never work.
http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.airportjournals.com/Photos/0803/X/0803019_9.jpg&sa=X&ei=2TSsUNy8FuP00gGx84HYDg&ved=0CAoQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNEaBRAYAZd4NYtkAVs1Vmnv3QdeTw

Tom.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2012-11-20 18:18:13 and read 4907 times.

Personally, I would go out of my way to fly an airline if Ru-Paul were a featured flight attendant. (I'm not sure if he considers himself transgender of course) He is a hoot and that would be a fun flight.

So what was the concept of the Ladyboy airline? Many transgendered guys are entertainers - and top notch ones at that. Was it intended as an over-the-top flying experience, or was the airline simply intending to provide good jobs for folks who can't always find them? I think lots of customers enjoy flight attendants who have a fun spirit about them - but still, people primarily fly to get from one point to the next. If the airline can't do that well, then whatever concept it has, isn't going to save it.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: lawair
Posted 2012-11-20 19:06:55 and read 4803 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 10):
That was never the case with PC Air. They were simply and purely an airline that was more open to the idea of staffing ladyboys, and that is all.

This is absolutely correct. While the airline did employ some transgender flight attendants, this was not the primary focus of the airline and it was more of a short term marketing gimmick, if anything. The vast majority of the airline's flight attendants were not transgender. (I think at one point they only publicly employed about four, or a few more.)

The airline failed in the same way that a lot of start-ups do, particularly in Thailand as of late: they did not have sufficient capital to start and maintain adequate operations. The requirements for acquiring an operating certificate in Thailand have also been relatively lax, I believe. There's an article on this in the Bangkok Post http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/...airlines-run-into-cash-turbulence.

Here's another article regarding PC Air's position when the ICN incident occurred: http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/...ir-case-leads-to-new-charter-rules The article suggests new rules for charter carriers like PC Air were being considered as a result of this problematic start-up.

[Edited 2012-11-20 19:10:54]

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: neutrino
Posted 2012-11-21 07:11:04 and read 4252 times.

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 16):
Sorry, I think I speak for quite a few of us a-net members on this thread when I say that is a very, very unnecessary intervention on the part of a moderator.


Go easy on him. He might be a little too eager on his trigger but so are most new guys on the job (any job).
Important thing is his enthusiasm in what he signed up to do, and to do the best he can.
Even politicians have their 100 days "honeymoon" so lets bear with his inexperience and let him fulfil his potential to be a damn good moderator.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: readytotaxi
Posted 2012-11-21 07:24:09 and read 4199 times.

Quoting neutrino (Reply 22):

Nicely put.  

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: rcair1
Posted 2012-11-21 07:46:00 and read 4126 times.

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 15):
The airlines actual name is PC Air - Ladyboy airlines was the media's name for them *rolls eyes*

That is unfortunate if it lead to their demise. However, is seems pretty clear it had more to do with operations of a startup than anything about staff - transgender or otherwise.

It brings to mind a trip to Thailand to do a product presentation to tech press (used to travel the world doing that). In this case the press event was held in a rather well known night club (I don't remember the name) and the 'theme' was to guess what "sexy slim model wearing see thru clothes had I been seen hanging around with". Of course - the sexy, slim model was a product and the see thru clothes referred to an aspect of the product (which was a computer product). The tech press crowd was to guess from a parade of lovely 'ladies' - and of course, being Thailand, one of the models was a transgender model.

It was all in good fun, if a bit off the wall for a geeky computer guy like me. (And - no, nobody was wearing any see thru clothes - I worked for a large multinational company and that would NOT have been tolerated). It was a bit of a challenge making my technical presentation (and it was technical - I'm a Ph.D. Techy guy) fit the venue..... The transgender model helped a lot!

The point is that having a transgender as part of the product presentation to technical press from a rather stodgy tech company was not viewed at all as riske' by the technical press there. I think that might give a sense of the environment there - for those who have not been there. BTW - this was probably 8 years ago...

I don't know anything about PC's operations or routes - but if they catered to a mostly 'local' crowd (people who know Thailand well) I doubt it was an issue at all. In some parts of the world I can see needing smelling salts for some of the more 'traditional' people when being served by a transgender flight attendant (if they even realized, which they probably would not).

Quoting neutrino (Reply 22):
Go easy on him. He might be a little too eager on his trigger but so are most new guys on the job

As he noted, not everybody here may have seen some of the posts he removed. Being a moderator is a very difficult job - it is a balancing act of trying to allow free discussion, but keep it focused on a topic so it does not go crazy. And - yes - before you ask, crew members like myself (support, not mod) are subject to the same rules. I had a post removed not that long ago because it drifted a bit too far.

Our great forums depend on the hard work of our moderators - so I hope you can join me in being supportive.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: sq_ek_freak
Posted 2012-11-21 09:38:48 and read 3961 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 19):
Yes, that business model would never work.

Yes I suppose referring to a photo that was taken 30 years ago reflecting a business model that is certainly no longer in effect at that airline today makes for a very useful and relevant comparison to the topic at hand.  

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-21 13:36:33 and read 3662 times.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 25):
Yes I suppose referring to a photo that was taken 30 years ago reflecting a business model that is certainly no longer in effect at that airline today makes for a very useful and relevant comparison to the topic at hand.

So we're going to pretend that airlines don't still use flight attendant sex appeal as a marketing tool? The "Singapore Girl" has been part of Singapore's marketing for 30+ years now. I was just responding to the concept that customers were "perverts" for being attracted to attractive cabin crew. PC Air is hardly unique in this regard.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: Lafite82
Posted 2012-11-21 17:34:17 and read 3401 times.

Just out of curiosity, how does a transsexual passport show their sex? And how do they fill in the immigration form (for sex M or F) of countries they are flying into?

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: 777way
Posted 2012-11-22 04:40:46 and read 3046 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 10):
t Thailand happens to be a country that is very open to transexuals,

That may be secular Thailand but in Bhuddism they are not accepted are even considered cursed and bad for their families so should be disowned, this was said ona Nat Geo show on the same issue.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: trent1000
Posted 2012-11-22 05:50:59 and read 2969 times.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 6):
The perverts I'm referring to are the passengers who would want to go out of their way to fly with an airline where the crews exert some kind of sexual attraction on them.

You must be referring to those who choose to travel on SQ because they are attracted to sexy Singapore girls, right?...
Well, that's what's actively advertised.

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2012-11-22 07:00:38 and read 2851 times.

As for transgender crew, couldn't give a toss either way. We had a pilot who decided he'd rather be a sheila than a bloke and went through the whole ordeal, including having his manhood lobbed off and getting silicone breasts and arse implants. She's still the same quality pilot she was when she was a he, and that's all I care about. Only "problem" is that her face didn't change and I've mistakenly called her by her male name a couple of times, as have many others. But she's a good egg and doesn't take offense.

We also have a transgender Flight Engineer, and that's a bit harder to get used to. I mean, all our F/Es are of the professional type (PFE), not pilots flying sideways for a few years until they can secure a forward facing seat. And PFE's are, by and large, the most hairy arsed, beer swinging, womanising, foul mouthed breed in aviation, always knowledgeable of where the slutties of sluts can be found in any backwater town. Which is why we love them so much  

Topic: RE: Thailand's Ladyboy Airline Grounded
Username: kaitak
Posted 2012-11-22 09:28:45 and read 2639 times.

Quoting Lafite82 (Reply 25):
Just out of curiosity, how does a transsexual passport show their sex? And how do they fill in the immigration form (for sex M or F) of countries they are flying into?

I think that one of the problems for transgender people in Thailand is that Thai officialdom does not recognise transgenderism (though they're inching in that direction), so Thai MTF transsexuals still have to travel with "M" in their passports. In the EU and many US states, they can change their gender in their passport to show their new gender, which obviously makes things a lot easier for them.

Quoting tioloko100 (Thread starter):
For the last 20 years we have been seeing a lot of innovation in all sectors including the airline industry but sadly the last new innovation in the airline sector which featured all transgender cabin crews failed to remain in the sky for long as it was ground weeks after its inaugural flight in Thailand.

For the record, there were only four of them.


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