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Topic: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: Tobias2702
Posted 2012-11-13 11:57:20 and read 2548 times.

Hi all, according to German news channel n-tv, AB plans a 10% job cut, which would affect more than 900 people. On 15 November, the Q3 figures will be published.

Nothing is official yet, though Tagesspiegel newspaper is citing AB boss Mehdorn from a speech he held this Monday that he "may not be able to keep his promise that AB can be restructured without cutting jobs". According to Mehdorn, the current situation the airline is in is "not because of its employees or the management, but politics is to blame".

source (German only): http://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaf...massiven-stellenabbau/7385024.html

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-11-13 12:05:45 and read 2566 times.

I don't think things will brighten up at AB until they truly decide what are they as an enterprise and place all their efforts on a single task.

Today they are trying to be 4 airlines in one. 1) European sun charter airline. 2) European hybrid LCC. 3) Longhaul scheduled operation 4) European network hub carrier.

This all goes back to the history of AB and how various airlines like LTU, Deutsche BA, Germania Express, Niki and legacy Air Berlin have been cobbled together under a single roof.

I also guess things need to play out with Etihad and if AB will remain in OW or move over to Skyteam.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: photoshooter
Posted 2012-11-13 12:15:54 and read 2563 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Today they are trying to be 4 airlines in one. 1) European sun charter airline. 2) European hybrid LCC. 3) Longhaul scheduled operation 4) European network hub carrier.

This all goes back to the history of AB and how various airlines like LTU, Deutsche BA, Germania Express, Niki and legacy Air Berlin have been cobbled together under a single roof.

Perhaps this could have worked if they all created an alliance.

I was already waiting for such news... Perhaps the future domination plans at BER might help them out a bit.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: ushermittwoch
Posted 2012-11-13 12:39:08 and read 2562 times.

There is a reason why I'm burning all my AB miles as fast as I can.
I have lost all faith in this airline.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2012-11-13 12:44:41 and read 2565 times.

First of all, Air-Berlin is a fantastic airline. They have a very good product in Y - very comfortable seats, great entertainment, and the crews tend to be very good (experienced and pro but friendly as well). I am a huge fan and have had some great flights with them - including sightseeing at the North Pole.

They are hurting badly by putting a lot of eggs in the Brandenburg basket. Tegel is way too small for the operation they have there, let alone what they plan - which was supposed to take place at SXF ("BER") - and god knows how long before that is open, could be another year. Insiders are saying Oct 2013 easy. For Air-Berlin, this is an existential threat.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
This all goes back to the history of AB and how various airlines like LTU, Deutsche BA, Germania Express, Niki and legacy Air Berlin have been cobbled together under a single roof.

Don't forget Interflug, lots of their top people inc most of operations started their careers at SXF! Moving back there will be a homecoming for many - if it ever happens...

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: CARST
Posted 2012-11-14 00:51:24 and read 2558 times.

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 3):
There is a reason why I'm burning all my AB miles as fast as I can.
I have lost all faith in this airline.

EY did not buy a major part of AB to let them go to the bankruptcy court. They have already put so much money into AB, that I expect them to have plans for ABs future role.

Regarding the EY-AF/KL and (forced) AB-AF/KL tie-up I still can not say if AB will be an feeder for this three new partners or if these codeshares will just bring additional revenue to ABs primary role as a real hub-and-spoke airline in the OneWorld network. At least AB and BA want the letter part and have plans for AB as a reliever (to LHR) on the Asia to Middle and Eastern Europe routes.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: Tobias2702
Posted 2012-11-14 01:42:53 and read 2554 times.

Quoting CARST (Reply 5):
At least AB and BA want the letter part and have plans for AB as a reliever (to LHR) on the Asia to Middle and Eastern Europe routes.

But how is this going to work? EY won't let AB operate to any destinations beyond AUH. In terms of longhaul, AB is heavily focused on the USA.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-11-14 03:11:42 and read 2556 times.

Quoting CARST (Reply 5):
ABs primary role as a real hub-and-spoke airline in the OneWorld network.

Is that what AB really is - a "real hub and spoke airline"?

To me as mentioned prior the biggest problem with AB is a lack of definition as to what its place in the market really is.

Quoting CARST (Reply 5):
At least AB and BA want the letter part and have plans for AB as a reliever (to LHR) on the Asia to Middle and Eastern Europe routes.

Seems much of AB operations eastward are restricted and guided by the EY relationship - certainly not beneficial to BA or OW.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-14 03:34:16 and read 2554 times.

I saw just today that SK, a *alliance member, has a code share with Etihad on a CPH-DUS flight. So much to that.

Is AB a hib and spoke airline? Yes, they may have too many hubs, but they operate hub and spoke and one can check his bags through to the destination.

Is AB a leisure airline? Yes, but so are EZY and FR. look at all the routes, some only once a week, FR is opening and closing almost weekly. typical what any leisure airline does since decades.

AB has scheduled operations and offeres low fares.

So does LH, LH even charters aircraft to organisations like the DFB German Soccer association and others.

AB offeres more choices to passengers than FR. That may be expensive, but many people don't like that "sit down and shut up" attitude of FR.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: r2rho
Posted 2012-11-14 07:13:11 and read 2555 times.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
Tegel is way too small for the operation they have there, let alone what they plan - which was supposed to take place at SXF ("BER") - and god knows how long before that is open, could be another year. Insiders are saying Oct 2013 easy. For Air-Berlin, this is an existential threat.

The opening of BER is a necessary, if not sufficient condition for AB's profitability. Unfortunately BER will also be too small but at least it will be much better suited for handling connecting flights.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
At least AB and BA want the letter part and have plans for AB as a reliever (to LHR) on the Asia to Middle and Eastern Europe routes.

Seems much of AB operations eastward are restricted and guided by the EY relationship - certainly not beneficial to BA or OW.

I suspect that the original intention of AB management was OW, but they were forced into the AF-KL deal by EY, who may not have majority ownership but provides the cash that pays AB's bills, and therefore has a decisive influence. However, I see much more development potential for AB in OW than in Skyteam.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-14 07:28:23 and read 2554 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):

To me as mentioned prior the biggest problem with AB is a lack of definition as to what its place in the market really is.

  

Quoting r2rho (Reply 9):

The opening of BER is a necessary, if not sufficient condition for AB's profitability. Unfortunately BER will also be too small but at least it will be much better suited for handling connecting flights.

There are already too many hubs in Europe; in fact LH is turning into a bit of a European USAir of the 90s--too many hubs competing for the same traffic. Probably 2-3 of the LH group hubs are unlikely to last in the long run, so adding *another* hub in Europe is an extremely costly venture that is unlikely to work in the longrun, particularly in a city that really doesn't have the business demand to back it up (BER).

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: CARST
Posted 2012-11-14 09:49:35 and read 2555 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
There are already too many hubs in Europe; in fact LH is turning into a bit of a European USAir of the 90s--too many hubs competing for the same traffic. Probably 2-3 of the LH group hubs are unlikely to last in the long run, so adding *another* hub in Europe is an extremely costly venture that is unlikely to work in the longrun, particularly in a city that really doesn't have the business demand to back it up (BER).

Are you aware that AB is not part of the LH group? It is LHs only significant competitor in Germany.

LH = Star Alliance

AB = OneWorld

And when we are talking of BER as a hub we are talking about AB who want to move a good part of their operations to Berlin and establish BER as their hub in Middle Europe, compared to the LH Group at FRA, MUC and ZRH.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: Tobias2702
Posted 2012-11-14 10:27:37 and read 2558 times.

Quoting CARST (Reply 11):
we are talking about AB who want to move a good part of their operations to Berlin and establish BER as their hub in Middle Europe

I don't think so. Once BER opens, AB will just move everything over from TXL, there will be no further relocation of flights. DUS won't shrink.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: CARST
Posted 2012-11-14 10:30:49 and read 2557 times.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 12):
I don't think so. Once BER opens, AB will just move everything over from TXL, there will be no further relocation of flights. DUS won't shrink.

Not DUS, but NUE. And A330s will come from both airports to BER.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-14 10:32:06 and read 2556 times.

Quoting CARST (Reply 11):
Are you aware that AB is not part of the LH group? It is LHs only significant competitor in Germany.

Yes I know--LH is going to have to prune its own hubs. Europe in general is going to lose hubs and network carriers over the next few years--they already are. AB setting up yet another hub, and network, is going to be swimming against the tide.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-14 12:34:38 and read 2557 times.

Quoting CARST (Reply 13):
Not DUS, but NUE. And A330s will come from both airports to BER.

are you sure? DUS is where the business is, not BER. They can't fill all these A330 at BER.

LH could not fill a D10 for the JFK flight at CGN so they moved it to DUS where they had an average 40 pax a day moe than they would have had at CGN.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
Yes I know--LH is going to have to prune its own hubs. Europe in general is going t

Europe is roughly 200 Million more people on a smaller area than the US.

LH hs 2 1/2 hubs in Germany FRA MUC (which is also an Italian hub) and DUS. VIE and ZRH are on their own and BRU as well. Once when traffic rights are moved to the EU jurisdiction, like it is already with the open skies agreement, it might be that hubs like BRU or VIE are moved.

I doubt that however.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: Tobias2702
Posted 2012-11-14 13:21:54 and read 2561 times.

According to Bloomberg:

Quote:
Air Berlin Plc (AB1) said quarterly profit rose 4.5 percent, trailing analysts’ estimates, even as a reorganization helped reduce spending at Europe’s third-largest discount airline.

Third-quarter earnings before interest and taxes climbed to 101.2 million euros ($129.1 million) from 96.8 million euros a year earlier, the carrier said in a statement today. That missed the 116.8 million-euro average of five estimates compiled by Bloomberg. Revenue rose 1.4 percent to 1.4 billion euros.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-14 13:25:19 and read 2556 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
LH hs 2 1/2 hubs in Germany FRA MUC (which is also an Italian hub) and DUS. VIE and ZRH are on their own and BRU as well. Once when traffic rights are moved to the EU jurisdiction, like it is already with the open skies agreement, it might be that hubs like BRU or VIE are moved.

The US currently has 4 network carriers and a handful of LCCs; probably more than 10 hubs have bit the dust in the last decade or two. The LH group alone has 4 network carriers spread over 6+ hubs, and that's before considering any other European carrier. It's not so much that hubs will be 'moved' so much as they will cease to be viable; frankly I don't think more than one hub will survive in the longrun between ZRH/MUC/VIE. It's already crowded and it's only going to get moreso, particularly with growth flatlining.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2012-11-14 17:12:40 and read 2555 times.

European aviation will likely be in for many changes over the coming few years, and AB is likely to feel the brunt of this due to its confused market position. Its trying to be everything to everyone, but failing to hit any real success in any of its areas.

As a few have stated, its needs to sort out its offering and focus on that first, then branch out if it can find a profitable niche in the crowded marketplace.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-14 22:28:35 and read 2555 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
The US currently has 4 network carriers and a handful of LCCs; probably more than 10 hubs have bit the dust in the last decade or two. The LH group alone has 4 network carriers

you cannot compare the US with Europe where a single market just exists since about 10 years. mWe have structures here, called countris or states, which have grown over centuries. Before the number of hiubs can be reduced, open sky agreements between the EU and third countries must be negotiated. This can take another decades or longer. Only then it will be possible to merge a carrier like Austrian into LH but even then, VIE would possibly be a valuable hub, only with less costs than before the merged operations.

Why give that up?

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2012-11-14 23:50:28 and read 2558 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Only then it will be possible to merge a carrier like Austrian into LH but even then, VIE would possibly be a valuable hub, only with less costs than before the merged operations.

I can see a point that there are many more focus cities targeting significant O&D pax numbers, but a reduction in hub flying will occur in the not too distant future.

As airlines look for further efficiencies, the only way to do this at a certain point is to increase co-operation with partners and re-evaluate the network.

Airlines can specifically target cities with strong O&D, but do not require a hub operation as this will bring greater operational efficiencies, limiting duplication of capacity from various hubs, whilst gaining increased yield potential and best serving the market needs of a city.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-11-15 00:29:14 and read 2558 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
The US currently has 4 network carriers and a handful of LCCs; probably more than 10 hubs have bit the dust in the last decade or two. The LH group alone has 4 network carriers spread over 6+ hubs, and that's before considering any other European carrier

Current hubs in the US for those 4 network carriers: EWR, PHL, IAD, CLT, ATL, MIA, CLE, DTW, MEM, ORD, DFW, IAH, MSP, DEN, PHX, SFO, LAX. Total: 17. We could add SEA (AS), HNL (HA), JFK (B6), plus WN"s non-hubs.

Current hubs in Europe: LIS, MAD, LHR, CDG, FCO, AMS, BRU, ZRH, MUC, DUS, FRA, VIE, CPH, HEL, IST. Total: 15.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-15 01:36:47 and read 2556 times.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 20):
I can see a point that there are many more focus cities targeting significant O&D pax numbers, but a reduction in hub flying will occur in the not too distant future.

It depends a lot on the structure of a country. Both the UK and France are centred on LON and PAR, whereas Germany is polycentric structured. The largest O&D area is Rhine/Ruhr centred on DUS. This allows slot constraint DUS a role a tertiary hub. The polycentric structure also gives more diversity. Germany can support 2 major and one smaller hub plus 3 large and about 5 smaller focus cities.

Efficient high speed rail changes the playgroud as well and increases the catchment area of FRA. In short, due to a higher population concentration in Europe and much better intermodal infrastructure, a comparison between Notrth America and Europe is difficult. The single market gives new opportunities, such as MUC having developed as a hub for northern Italy due to far better accessability and range of destinations than MXP. .

Point to point flying between non hub cities has long time been part of LH and due to the costs involved will now be transfered to 4U, so that's nothing new here either.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: Tobias2702
Posted 2012-11-15 01:37:13 and read 2559 times.

...and here come the figures: http://ir.airberlin.com/en/ir/financ...lin-increases-third-quarter-profit

Quote:
In the third quarter, airberlin was able to increase its net income to EUR 66.6 million (2011: EUR 30.2 million), an increase of more than 120 percent over the corresponding quarter of the previous year. The operating result improved by 4.5 percent to EUR 101.2 million (EUR 96.8 million). Revenue increased by 1.4 percent over the previous year, to EUR 1,395.1 million (EUR 1,375.5 million), despite a targeted capacity reduction of 5.4 percent. Capacity utilization increased slightly by 0.4 percentage points to 84.54 percent (84.14 percent). Yield (revenue per passenger) improved by 3.1 percent to EUR 115.84 (EUR 112.39). EBITDAR (Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, amortization and leasing expenses) increased by 3.8 percent to EUR 279.5 million (EUR 269.3 million). Total equity at the end of the quarter amounted to EUR 186.3 million, which corresponds to an equity ratio of eight percent.


So far, there has been no word of any job cuts.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-15 03:02:40 and read 2560 times.

according to FAZ 900 jobs will be axed

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-15 06:42:23 and read 2669 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):

you cannot compare the US with Europe where a single market just exists since about 10 years

Why not? The only difference are the obstacles to capacity cutting.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Before the number of hiubs can be reduced, open sky agreements between the EU and third countries must be negotiated.

That may be true, but it is only going to prolong the pain; the competitive issues and travel patterns are the same as anywhere.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Only then it will be possible to merge a carrier like Austrian into LH but even then, VIE would possibly be a valuable hub, only with less costs than before the merged operations.

I just don't see ZRH, VIE, MUC all lasting; politics probably makes winding ZRH or VIE down, plus ZRH seems to be the most profitable by far. Perhaps MUC is the odd man out? It got a pretty deep cut to Transatlantic this winter.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 21):
Current hubs in the US for those 4 network carriers: EWR, PHL, IAD, CLT, ATL, MIA, CLE, DTW, MEM, ORD, DFW, IAH, MSP, DEN, PHX, SFO, LAX. Total: 17. We could add SEA (AS), HNL (HA), JFK (B6), plus WN"s non-hubs.

How many have closed or wound down over the last decade? And in Europe? It's not really about the number of hubs but creative destruction in capacity.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: ushermittwoch
Posted 2012-11-15 07:19:10 and read 2689 times.

I can't see VIE losing its status as a hub. Just look at the vast (imho by far the best) route network through Eastern Europe. It's the old Austro-Hungarian Empire in aviation form and beyond.  
Seriously though, there are a lot of business ties between Austria and the Balkans. So don't underestimate that when you talk about VIE as a hub.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-15 07:34:57 and read 2808 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 25):
How many have closed or wound down over the last decade? And in Europe? It's not really about the number of hubs but creative destruction in capacity.

I said that due to traffic rights the present situation will go on for some time to come. Plus, we haqve a single market, economical, but not political. Lufthansa can merge its subsidiary Austrian into their system up to the point where they take the red and white paint away. That won't go. May be in a few years but now there is no reason.

MUC is a viable hub, as is FRA, however the night curfew was a shot into the foot, no slots available already now past 9 pm and Condor is evaluating to base some long distsnce jets in MUC and VIE plus medium distance around the Mediterranean. FRA is no longer attractive for jets based here. That#s also a way to destroy a hub but the sheer massive violume of up to 126 movements per hour, at least beteen 6 am and 8 pm will do it.

With growth in mind and no extensions down the road, rest assured, the present hubs will stay.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-15 10:00:09 and read 2807 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
I said that due to traffic rights the present situation will go on for some time to come. Plus, we haqve a single market, economical, but not political. Lufthansa can merge its subsidiary Austrian into their system up to the point where they take the red and white paint away. That won't go. May be in a few years but now there is no reason.

It's not about merging so much as managing capacity. The LH group has so many hubs doing the same thing, competing for the same traffic, and all that traffic is either down in yield, passengers, or both, never mind every other EU carrier competing for that same traffic. It's going to get rough(er).

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
With growth in mind and no extensions down the road, rest assured, the present hubs will stay

What growth? The EU is not growing any time soon and Asian carriers and LCCs are hoover up any remaining traffic growth from the network carriers. Something has got to give.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: CARST
Posted 2012-11-16 05:50:33 and read 2790 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
It's not about merging so much as managing capacity. The LH group has so many hubs doing the same thing, competing for the same traffic, and all that traffic is either down in yield, passengers, or both, never mind every other EU carrier competing for that same traffic. It's going to get rough(er).

Why do you think the LH hubs doing the same thing is a bad thing? As long as they don't take passengers away from each other it is a good system that works well for the LH Group.

The advantage of a multi-hub-system for LH is that they can get the full O&D traffic from the areas around the hubs, have shorter feeder flights into the hubs, have no congested hubs as they can spread overflow traffic to the less congested hubs.

The one-stop-flights from a spoke airport to some international destination can be routed through all their hubs with the price staying at the same level. It doesn't matter if I fly from TXL to JFK via FRA, MUC, DUS, ZRH, VIE or BRU, there won't be huge differences regarding the price and I did not heard of LH complaining about low load-factors.

And there will never be a possibility to combine the traffic at one hub, there is no possibility to build such a mega hub in Germany. For the same reasons why there will never be one mega-hub close to New York or London combining all the existing airports.


And going back to the topic of AB cutting jobs and restructuring, they can just not compete with LH at their home airports, there won't be AB-hubs at FRA or MUC. AB has another business plan, they are a full service airline for years already, but they try to remain a competitor to LH with lower costs and lower fares, perhaps also with offering a little less perks and little a lower service-standard. There also will be less business travellers on AB than on LH.
AB is smart in having hubs at DUS, TXL and NUE with DUS and BER being their future hubs. Their announcement today to axe unprofitable routes and strengthen their routes to other OneWorld hubs instead of parking the aircraft is another step in the right direction.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-16 08:00:33 and read 2800 times.

Quoting CARST (Reply 29):
Why do you think the LH hubs doing the same thing is a bad thing?

It's not just LH hubs, but also AF/KL, IB/BA, LCCs, and everyone else. There are too many hubs in Europe competing for the same traffic.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-16 08:09:54 and read 2801 times.

In Europe, the hubs have a historic background since the major hubs are where the nformer national carriers have their domicile.

That makes us different from the US. There are changes, SK is just going through a change where the 3 hub strategy CPH OSL ARN seems not to be sustainable any longer due to weak traffic and fierce competition from a leaner carrier, DY.

But as CARST has pointed out, no LH Group hub could take over considerable traffic from any other hub, there is simply not enough capacity at each of them.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-16 08:51:22 and read 2806 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
In Europe, the hubs have a historic background since the major hubs are where the nformer national carriers have their domicile.

That makes us different from the US

The only difference is the obstacles to consolidation. The cost/revenue/traffic flow issues are virtually identical

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
there is simply not enough capacity at each of them.

AF/IB/SK/LH/AB are all slashing and burning whatever they can to reduce costs--that's not because there's not enough capacity to take all the profitable traffic.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-11-16 09:06:48 and read 2796 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 30):
There are too many hubs in Europe competing for the same traffic.

Well, as I mentioned above, there are more hubs in the US competing for a not too dissimilar amount of traffic...

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-16 14:15:01 and read 2790 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 33):

Well, as I mentioned above, there are more hubs in the US competing for a not too dissimilar amount of traffic...

How many hubs have closed in the US? How many full on mergers have there been in the US?

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-11-16 14:27:00 and read 2786 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
How many hubs have closed in the US? How many full on mergers have there been in the US?

And what does this have to do with your statement that there are too many hubs in Europe, when there are actually way more in the US?

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-16 14:49:09 and read 2789 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 35):

And what does this have to do with your statement that there are too many hubs in Europe, when there are actually way more in the US?

Much more than the absolute count of hubs in the EU vs US--it's not about how many each region has, but how many they need, versus how many they have. The US has already lost probably at least half ten hubs--the EU? Maybe 1-2? If that?

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-11-16 18:23:47 and read 2777 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
it's not about how many each region has, but how many they need, versus how many they have.

And how do you establish how many they need? The US has reduced the number of hubs (not by so many actually: STL, comes to mind, what else?), Europe maybe hasn't. But maybe Europe already has the right number of hubs.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-11-17 11:17:43 and read 2770 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 37):
The US has reduced the number of hubs (not by so many actually: STL, comes to mind, what else?)

MEM, CVG.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 37):
But maybe Europe already has the right number of hubs.

Moreover, not all EU hubs are having an equal importance. BRU, LIS and VIE are hubs for niche markets (BRU for Africa, LIS for Brazil and VIE for Eastern Europe) which are based on historic and O&D grounds.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-11-17 14:08:01 and read 2750 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 38):
MEM, CVG.

MEM and CVG are still hubs of sorts... Although probably not for much longer.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-11-17 14:33:26 and read 2756 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Today they are trying to be 4 airlines in one. 1) European sun charter airline. 2) European hybrid LCC. 3) Longhaul scheduled operation 4) European network hub carrier.

To be fair to AB, this is a problem that seems to afflict other LCCs that become network carriers. I'm still struggling to understand precisely who VA are, other than QF and JQ rolled into one.

On the one hand they are approaching a legacy carrier, with domestic J class (including lie-flat TransCons), a 3 class full service international network, and are on the prowl to steal as many corporate contracts from QF as possible.

On the other they are a fully blown LCC flying buckets and spades to PPP, HTI, DPS etc

Quoting LJ (Reply 38):
MEM, CVG.

PIT, BNA, RDU, SJC, BOS (do B6 count it as a hub or focus city?)

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 36):
The US has already lost probably at least half ten hubs--the EU? Maybe 1-2? If that?

MXP, MAN, BHX, BCN, BUD + AF's draw back in the French regions

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-11-17 14:40:38 and read 2749 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 40):
PIT, BNA, RDU, SJC, BOS

PIT was a bona fide hub. The rest? Not so much, really.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 40):
MXP, MAN, BHX, BCN, BUD + AF's draw back in the French regions

Similarly, MXP was indeed an important AZ hub. Not so much for the rest.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: Humberside
Posted 2012-11-17 14:42:54 and read 2752 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 40):
MXP, MAN, BHX, BCN, BUD + AF's draw back in the French regions

BCN has been 'rebuilt' into a short haul hub by Vueling

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-11-17 14:49:59 and read 2761 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 41):
PIT was a bona fide hub. The rest? Not so much

At it's peak RDU had 211 daily departures: http://www.departedflights.com/AARDUhub.html

BNA had 265: http://www.departedflights.com/AABNAhub.html

DL had a peak of 218 at BOS: http://www.departedflights.com/DLBOShub.html

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-11-17 14:50:16 and read 2771 times.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 42):
BCN has been 'rebuilt' into a short haul hub by Vueling

I wouldn't call BCN a hub. It's just a place where you can connect from one VY flight to another. But there are no banks. If we add BCN, then we need to add LAS, MDW, BWI, HOU and all the other WN no-hubs.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-19 18:36:40 and read 2731 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 37):
But maybe Europe already has the right number of hubs.

If multiple carriers in the region are on the verge of collapse, and/or slashing their workforce and cutting costs to remain viable, then there are still too many seats chasing too few passengers.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 44):
If we add BCN, then we need to add LAS, MDW, BWI, HOU and all the other WN no-hubs.

I don't think anyone is really connecting in BCN--maybe 10% if that. WN on the other hand is at most a third connecting traffic, but that number is going to be on the higher side at its major airports such as LAS/MDW/BWI and less so HOU.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: UALWN
Posted 2012-11-19 23:53:28 and read 2709 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
there are still too many seats chasing too few passengers.

That might be true, but it's not directly related to the number of hubs.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
I don't think anyone is really connecting in BCN--maybe 10% if that. WN on the other hand is at most a third connecting traffic, but that number is going to be on the higher side at its major airports such as LAS/MDW/BWI and less so HOU.

Agreed. So, again, there are many more hubs in the US than in the EU.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-20 07:17:23 and read 2676 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 46):

Agreed. So, again, there are many more hubs in the US than in the EU.

The two are really unrelated, since the traffic flows are so different. The US may be able to support more, for any number of reasons, but it is able to support many fewer hubs than it could merely a decade ago.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 46):

That might be true, but it's not directly related to the number of hubs.

It is, since many of those hubs are chasing the same connecting traffic, as opposed to Vueling's operation at BCN for example, which is mostly local and not competing with any other hub for local BCN traffic.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-11-21 14:07:29 and read 2599 times.

Air France CEO says they want to see a partnership with AB and that this "depends on Etihad".

No timeline is given, but AF says it wants to utilize a AB partnership to bolster Eastern Europe and Germany links with feed into CDG.

Air France CEO wants to partner with Air Berlin
http://atwonline.com/airline-finance...-ceo-wants-partner-air-berlin-1121


Frankly, I think EY will work to align AB with AF whether the German carriers current management want to do so or not.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: Stratofish
Posted 2012-11-21 15:00:03 and read 2514 times.

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 26):
I can't see VIE losing its status as a hub. Just look at the vast (imho by far the best) route network through Eastern Europe. It's the old Austro-Hungarian Empire in aviation form and beyond.

I'm currently doing a research project on just that and let me tell you VIE is nowhere near the "hub into the east" it wants to be...
But that's off topic so I'll leave it at that.

As far as AB is concerned, let's see where they will cut those staff... management should be top priority. Even with Unhold gone, his replacement(s) is only marginally more reputable, if at all.

And if they don't decide what they want to be and who they want to belong to all those layoffs will have been in vain.
Also wouldn't it be more feasible if they ended their leas agreement with TuiFly instead of laying off their own workforce?

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: billreid
Posted 2012-11-21 15:47:16 and read 2480 times.

Quoting CARST (Reply 5):
Regarding the EY-AF/KL and (forced) AB-AF/KL tie-up I still can not say if AB will be an feeder for this three new partners or if these codeshares will just bring additional revenue to ABs primary role as a real hub-and-spoke airline in the OneWorld network. At least AB and BA want the letter part and have plans for AB as a reliever (to LHR) on the Asia to Middle and Eastern Europe routes.

I envisioned the move to OW by AB as desperation.
If AB is eventually driven to SKY then it will be very interesting. I see all the MIA as gone and the RSW as gone as well. AB would be relegated to the feeder role for AMS and CDG for westbound. But would offer connect possibilities in GE with EY.
In the end AB has a tough road to go.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-22 06:16:33 and read 2316 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 50):
I envisioned the move to OW by AB as desperation.

joining an alliance is the way to do business these days. The interesting fact here is that AB is courted by 2 cpompeting alliances. To say it with the lyrics of a famous song: This could be heaven this could be hell.

The MIA and RSW routes are legacy routes talken from LTU and are self sustainable. More to that, MIA as well as JFK feeds into AA hubs.

Next, an alliance is a club, the club does not own it's members. A club can issue wishes and offer options, but the company is run by it's own management. AF / KL can feed their traffic at BER into the AB network, to connect places that might not be viable from CDG or AMS. But whoich German traffic can AB feed through CDG and AMS both AF and KL cannot do themselves? Both are experts at that since over 60 years, befor elH existed Germany was the grazing field for all surrounding flag carriers. Neither AF nor KL needs an airline based in Germany for that. That goes for BA as well, BTW, who was, during gthre times the allied forces had sovereignty over Berlin, basically a German airline. BEA had these domestic services and BOAC ran long distance flights via DUS with Comets and VC10s. Plus connecting LHR with all major German cities.


If one of the group of suitors needs AB more than the others, it is Etihad. But that value os limited either.

EY for AB is valuable as an investor more than a traffic source. OW suits AB nbetter than SKY. Difficult decision to make, bu then, in some places more than 1 spouse is allowed............

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: billreid
Posted 2012-11-22 10:36:35 and read 2198 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 51):
The MIA and RSW routes are legacy routes taken from LTU and are self sustainable. More to that, MIA as well as JFK feeds into AA hubs.

This is true.
But DL and AF would NEVER approve of another airline in the alliance overflying the Alliance.
Whether KL wants to fly to FLA or not it MUST have approval by DL/AF/KL jointly.

After AA comes out of CH11, I feel the CHARTER operation to RSW once or twice weekly is gone. AB is taking away from the alliance what should be contributing to MIA revenues. It simply contributes NOTHING to the alliance and in so much, why did they join if CHARTERS are there strategy?

So the question is what is AB?
A low-cost intra-EU airline
A Charter Airline a-la LTU
An Alliance member

You pick and choose but all of the above is a sure fire route to receivership and eventual collapse.
You can not be everything to everybody. It has never worked in this industry and never will.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2012-11-22 12:32:50 and read 2106 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 52):
I feel the CHARTER operation t
Quoting billreid (Reply 52):
A Charter Airline a-la LTU

it is not aq charter operation. LTU started as a charter operation, as did AB, these flights are regular scheduled flights and they serve a particular market. LTU became a scheduled service carrier long before they were bought by AB. Any LTU flight carried pax who made their own arrangements as well as holiday makers who bought through tour operators.
Very few flights were not on open sale.

Quoting billreid (Reply 52):
So the question is what is AB?
A low-cost intra-EU airline
A Charter Airline a-la LTU
An Alliance member

all of it, except may be the charter airline but then the question is, what is a "charter airline" Next Jet is one. L

So, what is your point?

Lufthansa serves leisure routes as well, some in Europe on a weekly base. Lufthansa does charters, they fly for the German Soccer Association. Air Berlin sometimes defines itself as a leisure airline.
Ryanair and Easy start to serve holiday destinations in the Med, away from the original city point to point services on daily basis.

AB is streamlining their route system but why should they axe a successful destination like RSW which is making money for them? If they axe RSW Condor would take it up next day.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: billreid
Posted 2012-11-22 15:04:42 and read 2016 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 53):
it is not aq charter operation.

OK. Tell the German Tour Operators that!
Yes you can buy a seat, but it is 90% supportd by the likes of TUI, Thomas Cook, Canusa, etc.
Yes they do sell on thier own via GDS, so they sell 100 seats every flight as flight only. But drop those tour operators and you have classic fail.

LH is trying to eliminate tour operator space, as is the case with BA, DL, UA, AA, etc. They see no need to grow somebodys tour business when they can offer the same and reap the benefits. The squeeze is the same as was seen by the Travel Agents in the USA twenty years ago.
Hence Delta Vacations, BA Holidays, etc.

Perhaps if you went to Pow Wow, ITB, WTM you would understand the evolving changes in the industry.
The airlines see no need to give up revenue to Tour Operators who want low fares to mark up. Why do that when you can provide he same internally and you manage the revenue stream. They control complex RM models and third parties just aren't needed. That is the fundamental reason that RSW and its Tour Operator business is at risk through time. AB needs to choose between supporting the Alliance or supporting a dying Tour Operator business.

Anyone that does not see that the Airlines and the Global Alliances are directly killing the tour operator business is living deep in the past.

We and I include myself need to understand that POS is changing, each day the world is becoming more adept at researching and buying via the net. And every day the world becomes more adept as the youth of a decade ago is slowly becoming the buyers of today.

Quoting billreid (Reply 52):
AB is streamlining their route system but why should they axe a successful destination like RSW which is making money for them? If they axe RSW Condor would take it up next day.

They axe it because they can make far more on direct sales without traditional dying sales methods, take the planes somewhere they control all revenue, contribute to the alliance, and are more profitable.
We need to understand that the model to RSW is dying and is being replaced by a new model. If you want P2P then you have to be able to generate enough GDS demand to drive P2P.

In short my, children aren't going to use T.O.'s when they have the web to shop.

Topic: RE: Air Berlin Facing Major Job Cuts?
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-11-22 16:19:41 and read 1968 times.

Air Berlin to sell its 3-million member topbonus frequent flyer scheme -

Air Berlin to sell its frequent flyer program
http://atwonline.com/operations-main...ll-its-frequent-flyer-program-1121

Apparently a buyer has been identified, but German privacy advocates concerned that the company is trying to make money on private customer data

Story (in German)
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaf...eberall-frisches-geld/7421622.html

Article also mentions company is "committed" to oneworld, but could still collaborate with Air France/KLM thanks to Etihad.


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