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Topic: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: Bthebest
Posted 2012-11-09 11:37:58 and read 2455 times.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...educe-fleet-by-25-aircraft-378758/

As we've already heard Iberia are cutting their fleet by 25 aircraft: 5 long haul, 20 shorthaul.

In addition, there are apparently other fleet changes within IAG - and some conflicting information - reported in the IAG 2015 fleet plan:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...dicates-additional-ba-777s-378769/

I was wondering if anyone had any clarification, as some of these numbers don't add up.

For Iberia:

By 2015 - 21 A340, 8 A330. This is a reduction in 5 A340 as indicated by restructuring plan, and the replacement of 8 by the A333.

Short-haul wise the A320 fleet will be reduced from 77 at present to 52 in 2015 - a reduction of 25, NOT 20 as indicated in the restructuring plan. Is this a further reduction?

For BA:

Report says remaining delivery of 777s would take fleet to 54. At present it is 3 772, 43 77E and 6 77W + 4 77W on order, totalling 56? Report states that 777 fleet in 2015 would be 58, which leaves an additional 2 777 to be accounted for? 787 deliveries will also be deferred with only 12, instead of 16, in service by 2015.

Short-haul, BA will apparently have 120 A320 family by 2015 - which includes and order for 10 which doesn't currently exist.

So from the looks of it - quite a few changes happening, including some orders to be expected. Anyone know anything more to confirm any of this?

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: bluesky73
Posted 2012-11-09 11:52:17 and read 2461 times.

I was just reading this and interesting to see anticipated changes to fleet. Also confirms the additional 10 A320s we were discussing last month.

More A346 going to dessert or chopper. Wonder where the 25 A320s will go, if early models maybe also more drinks cans?

I read somewhere else Iberia may get a new or revised livery, can anyone confirm?

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: peterinlisbon
Posted 2012-11-09 11:56:08 and read 2461 times.

Perhaps some of the A320s taken away from Iberia will go to BA, that would account for the 10 extra planes that BA needs. It's amazing to me that in the space left after the collapse of Air Madrid, Air Comet and Spanair, and given that it has a monopoly on many routes to South America and an ideal geoghraphical location for Europe-South America flights, Iberia still can't make it work. As I remember on short-haul, Iberia had a very bad reputation (basically low-cost service for full service price, and it was famous for it's grumpy flight attendants) so I'm not surprised that people are choosing to fly on other airlines.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: HAJflyer
Posted 2012-11-09 12:33:10 and read 2461 times.

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 1):
More A346 going to dessert or chopper

The retirement of these A346 could present LX with an attractive opportunity to replace at least some of their A343 with a (slightly) larger and more modern aircraft that is already being flown by another carrier in the LH group. Given the fact that some of LX´s current A343 are second hand aircraft from Austrian and Air Canada, I would not be too surprised if they jumped at this opportunity to grab some relatively cheap airframes.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: bluesky73
Posted 2012-11-09 14:03:20 and read 2463 times.

Actually looking at IB fleet looks like the A343s would go first and that would leave 17 A346s along with new A333s.

Think IB 320s in fleet not ancient so may find new home with Vueling or someone else. Suppose BA could takes them for LGW ops.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: Bthebest
Posted 2012-11-09 14:05:34 and read 2463 times.

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 1):
More A346 going to dessert or chopper.

As I understand the the 343s are older than the 346s so surely these would be first to go? Can't imagine the CASM is too much different and the they'll be better placed with the 346s when/if things do turn around.

If they want a fleet of 29 long-haul, rather than have 17/4/8 346/343/333 respectively I'd scrap the the 343 subfleet and buy 4 more 333, or if they need the quads or range, acquire some more 346s - possibly ex QR?

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: VV701
Posted 2012-11-10 06:51:02 and read 2459 times.

This is what the article says about BA and the 777:

"Scheduled delivery of five remaining 777s on order would have taken BA's 777 fleet from 49 to 54 during 2011-15, but the amended plan shows an increase of nine 777s which will take the carrier's total from 52 this year to 58 in 2015."

This is a verbal appreciation of Charts 17 and 18 shown at the IAG "Capital Markets 2012 Presentation" that can be accessed here:

http://www.iagshares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=240949&p=irol-presentations

Chart 17, "Fleet plan detail 2011", shows (for the BA 777 Fleet):

Fleet was 49 as at start 2011
Fleet will be 54 in 2015
Deliveries will be 5 in 2012-15

Chart 18 "Fleet plan detail 2012 shows (for the BA 777 Fleet):

Fleet is 52 as at 2012
Fleet will be 58 in 2015
Deliveries will be 9 2012-15

So when the article says "Scheduled delivery of five remaining 777s on order would have taken BA's 777 fleet from 49 to 54 during 2011-15" it is talking of the now changed plan as presented earlier. When it says "the amended plan shows an increase of nine 777s which will take the carrier's total from 52 this year to 58 in 2015" it is talking about the current plan presnted on Thursday last.

This is reasonably clear if you read the article carefully. But you do need to read it carefully because the fact that it is comparing an OLD fleet plan with IAG's NEW and REVISED fleet plan may not hit you between the eyes.

So the changes we can expect to see to the BA long haul fleet between now and 2015 are (with the change in plan since the last presentation in brackets):

744 fleet down from 52 to 45 operational aircraft (no change)
763 fleet down from 14 to 1 aircraft (no change)
777 fleet up from 52 to 58 aircraft (+4)
787 fleet up from 0 to 12 aircraft (-4)
380 fleet up from 0 to 9 aircraft (no change)
318 fleet stable at 2 aircraft (no change)

In summary what it is saying is that BA have postponed the delivery of four 787s on order and have ordered 4 more 777s, presumably 77Ws, in their place.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: Bthebest
Posted 2012-11-10 07:42:06 and read 2462 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 6):
This is a verbal appreciation of Charts 17 and 18 shown at the IAG "Capital Markets 2012 Presentation" that can be accessed here:

http://www.iagshares.com/phoenix.zht...tions

Thanks for that, I tried to find something this but obviously wasn't aware where to look for it.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 6):
So the changes we can expect to see to the BA long haul fleet between now and 2015 are (with the change in plan since the last presentation in brackets):

744 fleet down from 52 to 45 operational aircraft (no change)
763 fleet down from 14 to 1 aircraft (no change)
777 fleet up from 52 to 58 aircraft (+4)
787 fleet up from 0 to 12 aircraft (-4)
380 fleet up from 0 to 9 aircraft (no change)
318 fleet stable at 2 aircraft (no change)

In summary what it is saying is that BA have postponed the delivery of four 787s on order and have ordered 4 more 777s, presumably 77Ws, in their place.

Easy to get confused though! Will actually be:

744 fleet down from 52 to 43 operational aircraft (-2)
763 fleet down from 14 to 7 aircraft (+6)
777 fleet up from 52 to 58 aircraft (+4)
787 fleet up from 0 to 12 aircraft (-4)
380 fleet up from 0 to 9 aircraft (no change)
318 fleet stable at 2 aircraft (no change)

So compared to 2011, they'll be dropping 2 744, which will be covered by (lets assume for now) the 2 77W ordered in July 2012. This brings their current backlog of 77W to 4, so we can expect another 77W order in due course. They'll also be holding on to 6 767s for longer but deferring 4 787s. This deferral could be due to Boeing delays of course as BA only has 8 -8s on order and the first -9 isn't due until 2014 - and BA aren't first in the queue.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: babybus
Posted 2012-11-10 10:49:08 and read 2461 times.

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 4):
Suppose BA could takes them for LGW ops.

I don't understand why Gatwick should be BA's dumping ground. It's had all the old Boeing 737s for years now you think it should have run down A320s?

Gatwick is as valid an airport as Heathrow. Having recently flown in one and out the other I can say that I prefer LGW.

IB does have a terrible reputation in the air and on the ground. Why would anyone want to fly with them when they can do so on a professional airline for the same price or less. How BA ever thought to form a partnership with them must be a tax dodge or something like that. The two airlines have no similarities in service.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: nclmedic
Posted 2012-11-10 11:31:23 and read 2459 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
Why would anyone want to fly with them when they can do so on a professional airline for the same price or less.

Must say I did have the same opinion but recently flew back from LIM with them (on an A346) and was pleasantly surprised. Very helpful service on the ground (guy went out of his way to sort out a tricky reservation problem) and in the air. FAs were mature, yes (when I fly BA long haul you can struggle to find a crew member under 40) but they were exceptionally gracious and helpful. The whole trip was a dream. Yes, no PTV's but most people knowing this in advance bring alternative entertainment (and my ipad actually had stuff on it I wanted to watch). IB is really not the horrific beast that it's been made out to be (and this from a long-term BA supporter).

As to the fleet question, the A343's will certainly go way before they dump any A346's.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: bluesky73
Posted 2012-11-10 12:33:16 and read 2461 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
I don't understand why Gatwick should be BA's dumping ground. It's had all the old Boeing 737s for years now you think it should have run down A320s?

IBs 320s aren't as old as the 734s so maybe history will repeat itself and older aircraft get transferred due to IB reducing short haul fleet? I too like LGW, but the last 10 years BA has retreated and sent "hand me downs" to LGW. Believe me Babybus I'd love to see BA add new short haul aircraft at LGW and just maybe and hopefully it will happen now that operating costs at LGW have been reduced.

I do agree with your last sentence, wasn't the perfect match but if we put this down to a nightclub pulling analogy all the other big fitter euros had linked up and left BA and IB on the dance floor. BA should have pulled KL but not wanting to go home alone was left with the pretty but not so financially sound Spanish one

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: RubberJungle
Posted 2012-11-10 12:50:52 and read 2461 times.

The 787 deferral is only slight, until early 2016.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-11-10 15:55:59 and read 2459 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
Gatwick is as valid an airport as Heathrow

What in the world makes an airport valid? The reason LGW gets hand me downs is that no one's ever made a business case to spend that much money on new aircraft.

The last new aircraft for short haul was G-BVNO, some twenty years ago, and only becuase it was inherited from someone elses order! (Dan Air)

[Edited 2012-11-10 15:59:39]

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: ZaphodB
Posted 2012-11-10 16:06:40 and read 2459 times.

Quoting nclmedic (Reply 9):

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
Why would anyone want to fly with them when they can do so on a professional airline for the same price or less.

Must say I did have the same opinion but recently flew back from LIM with them (on an A346) and was pleasantly surprised. Very helpful service on the ground (guy went out of his way to sort out a tricky reservation problem) and in the air. FAs were mature, yes (when I fly BA long haul you can struggle to find a crew member under 40) but they were exceptionally gracious and helpful. The whole trip was a dream. Yes, no PTV's but most people knowing this in advance bring alternative entertainment (and my ipad actually had stuff on it I wanted to watch). IB is really not the horrific beast that it's been made out to be (and this from a long-term BA supporter).

Hallelujah! I fly TATL r/t at least twice a year on IB and I have never, ever come across the terrible cabin crew or ground staff I keep hearing about. The only bad thing about them IMO is the short haul seat pitch which is horrific after (roughly) the first 10 rows. Are BA better? ... mostly (but not always), yes. Are IB terrible? No.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: MFC
Posted 2012-11-10 16:44:09 and read 2460 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
IB does have a terrible reputation in the air and on the ground. Why would anyone want to fly with them when they can do so on a professional airline for the same price or less. How BA ever thought to form a partnership with them must be a tax dodge or something like that. The two airlines have no similarities in service.

I have flown with Iberia many times and never found it terrible. Normally they are okay, and I have come across really nice staff, something more usual on short-medium haul I must say.
I have to admit that Emirates, Swiss or Thai are much better than Iberia, but the difference doesn't make me avoid flying with them, and they are not worse than Delta, American, Air Canada or Air France in terms of service. I think that with the new A330's, refurbished A346's and service improvements they are making, their product will be pretty good.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-11-10 17:49:14 and read 2459 times.

Quoting Bthebest (Thread starter):
Report says remaining delivery of 777s would take fleet to 54. At present it is 3 772, 43 77E and 6 77W + 4 77W on order, totalling 56? Report states that 777 fleet in 2015 would be 58, which leaves an additional 2 777 to be accounted for? 787 deliveries will also be deferred with only 12, instead of 16, in service by 2015.

Why is BA so restrained in only 2 777-300ER a year. IAG needs to do a deal for 20 777 now and future 30 777X planes. The 744 may be paid off, the day of the next C or D check is coming soon for some and is it worth it for BA to do the check.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: laca773
Posted 2012-11-10 17:51:35 and read 2457 times.

I wouldn't be surprised if BA new IB was in bad shape and in need of a major overhaul both on the ground and in the air.

Their shorthaul product is poor for the most part.Might as well fly Easy Jet and not have to deal with rude, ambivalent ground staff @ MAD. The majority of IB's shorthaul service is via MAD, which lets competition run the show in all other markets from Spain to the EU.
IB seems somewhat lost or confused what they're going to do with their short/midhaul routes and product compared to their partner.

There's no consistency in product across the board when it comes to IB-BA. They need to get this fixed, the sooner the better. It needs to be very close in comparison so they can provide seamless service, not drastically, different, which they are now.

BA is quite smart retiring those fuel thirsty A343s. I know the A346s are somewhat better, but again, comparing longhaul fleets, there again is nothing close to be similar.
Will BA transfer what A330s BD had left to IB?
Is there any chance we'll see IAG perhaps transfer a few 777s over to IB to get the A340s out of service sooner than later? Would the 777 be a better fit for IB on their longhaul flights to Latin America?

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: aamd11
Posted 2012-11-10 17:59:18 and read 2459 times.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 16):
Will BA transfer what A330s BD had left to IB?

No. There were two 332's... WWBM went to VCV for storage, and WWBD went to SFB to be broken up.

Doubt BA will be transferring 777s to MAD, I don't think they have any spare capacity in the longhaul fleet right now.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-11-10 18:34:21 and read 2456 times.

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 1):
More A346 going to dessert or chopper.
Quoting Bthebest (Reply 5):
As I understand the the 343s are older than the 346s so surely these would be first to go?

Which A340s are leaving the fleet? IIRC, two A343s will leave due to opportunistic lease expiration, but which of the others?

Quoting Bthebest (Reply 5):
If they want a fleet of 29 long-haul, rather than have 17/4/8 346/343/333 respectively I'd scrap the the 343 subfleet and buy 4 more 333, or if they need the quads or range, acquire some more 346s - possibly ex QR?

I would think the A343s would leave first, but is that the case? I suspect lease expiration/penalties will play a role as well as new lease rates. In other thread, it is being discussed how A346 lease rates have collapsed to $300k (USD)/month:
Fall 2012 Aircraft Values And Lease Pricing (by LAXintl Nov 5 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Along with other lease rates...

Quoting aamd11 (Reply 17):
Doubt BA will be transferring 777s to MAD, I don't think they have any spare capacity in the longhaul fleet right now.

I concur. I expect ex-BMI slots to become longhaul slots quickly (and profitably).

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: VV701
Posted 2012-11-10 19:13:01 and read 2457 times.

I have been thinking about the "BA - Short Haul - Other - 2012: 40 - 2015: 26" line of Chart 18 in the IAG presentation.

First the 40 "other" (non-Airbus) aircraft in 2012:

The LGW fleet of 734s is nineteen strong.

There are six E170s and seven E190s in service with BA CityFlyer based at LCY.

So that's 32 of those 40 frames.

What are the other eight?

There are three 752s operated out of ORY by Openskies. They are not included in the BA long haul aircraft listing on Chart 18 so they must be included in the short haul listing possibly because both BA and IB operated 752s primarily on short haul routes.

The remaining five aircraft are a problem. My only suggestion is the five RJ100s that I thought were bought by LX from BA in 2005-06. But they might be leased and therefore still on BA's books. Can anyone confirm or offer an alternative?

Assuming the above is correct, what are the implications of the figure of 26 "other" BA short haul aircraft in 2015?

I assume that the current plan for 2015 is that OpenSkies will still operate three 752s. After all they have just announced an ORY-JFK service so they are at least planning operations that will require three aircraft.

So that leaves the nineteen 734s and the five RJ100s.

The reduction of fourteen "other" aircraft therefore has to be either five RJ100s and nine 734s or up to fourteen 734s.

If it were fourteen 734s then they would need to be replaced. The Chart shows that BA will take delivery of ten new A320 Family aircraft between 2012 and 2015. These aircraft or those they displace in the BA LHR fleet would replace ten of the LGW 734s. Additionally there are spare aircraft that the BA LHR fleet will not need. One is 319 G-DBCA. It has been dedicated to the three-times-daily LHR-TXL-LHR rotation operated until 27 October for LH. Then there are two 320s, one of which is G-MIDY, that have been operating the three-times-daily rotations between FRA and both BHX and MAN again on behalf of LH and again discontinued on 27 October. Further, come the start of the Summer 2013 Timetable, BA will have to give up 15 LHR slot pairs as part of the condition for EU approval for IAG to buy BD. This means that a further three to five aircraft will be freed up.

I am therefore suggesting that the Chart indicates that fourteen 734s will be retired and be replaced by new or displaced Airbuses and that there will be and additional two or three Airbus aircraft available for service expansion at LGW.

Any alternative analysis and suggestions?

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: Tristarsteve
Posted 2012-11-11 05:45:30 and read 2457 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 19):
What are the other eight?

One B757 owned by BA and operated by Open Skies and 7 shorthaul B767

[Edited 2012-11-11 05:51:39]

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: Bthebest
Posted 2012-11-11 06:29:10 and read 2461 times.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 20):
One B757 owned by BA and operated by Open Skies and 7 shorthaul B767

Nice spot - shorthaul 767 just isn't the usual in Europe!

But Cityflyer actually has 8 E190s so adds up to 40 excl. 757s.

So assuming Cityflyer will stay the same, the combined shorthaul 737/767 fleet will be reduced by half. Could we see more A321 being added to partially cover the 767s? Who knows what's happening to the 737 fleet!

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: na
Posted 2012-11-11 06:37:27 and read 2459 times.

Doesnt sound good. More bread-and-butter planes, yawn. They should consider the 748I, as more 777s just mean they are anxiously staring at the Joneses without looking at planes able to offer a better onboard product than is technically possible on a simple tube.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: BA174
Posted 2012-11-11 12:26:15 and read 2456 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 19):
I assume that the current plan for 2015 is that OpenSkies will still operate three 752s. After all they have just announced an ORY-JFK service so they are at least planning operations that will require three aircraft

I fail to see how they can operate three daily flights will just three aircraft as even now with just two daily rotations to EWR all three aircraft seem fairly busy. They will need a fourth.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-11-11 13:01:19 and read 2456 times.

Quoting na (Reply 22):
They should consider the 748I,

They did, carefully and then ruled it out, like most other operators of the B747-400.

Topic: RE: IAG Fleet Restructuring
Username: r2rho
Posted 2012-11-23 06:35:23 and read 2438 times.

Quoting Bthebest (Thread starter):
For Iberia:

Short-haul wise the A320 fleet will be reduced from 77 at present to 52 in 2015 - a reduction of 25, NOT 20 as indicated in the restructuring plan. Is this a further reduction?

What is not clear to me is if that will be a net reduction, or if they could be transferred to Vueling for instance, which has announced an expansion and stated it wants more a/c. In that case it would be a reduction in IB's mainline fleet, but not a net total reduction considering they are transferred within the IB "group". IB older A320's should still have life in them, though they may need a bit of cabin refreshening.


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