Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5615840/

Topic: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: vlad1971
Posted 2012-11-20 11:44:16 and read 11963 times.

US AIRWAYS awarded new services between CLT and LHR as of March 2013 .

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-air...ded-london-heathrow-190000401.html

Does it mean LGW base will be closed for US ??

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: wn676
Posted 2012-11-20 12:03:41 and read 11977 times.

Quoting vlad1971 (Thread starter):
Does it mean LGW base will be closed for US ??

I would think so. LGW didn't last long from PHL after they started LHR service.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: usairways85
Posted 2012-11-20 12:22:08 and read 11977 times.

No details about the time slot they received.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-20 12:22:41 and read 11980 times.

Wow! Great for US.

The flight will originate in MIA? Interesting...

Quoting vlad1971 (Thread starter):
Does it mean LGW base will be closed for US ??

Most definitely. No reason to keep it open and split operations between two airports, esp with the higher-yielding traffic headed to one largely over the other.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: usairways85
Posted 2012-11-20 12:28:49 and read 11981 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 3):
The flight will originate in MIA? Interesting...

Likely all that means is the flight number will originate in MIA, highly doubt it will be the same aircraft on MIA-CLT-LHR.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: ORDBOSEWR
Posted 2012-11-20 12:33:01 and read 11978 times.

So they did not buy the slot from someone.
How did they get the slot? Auction?

I guess that other *A members did not want so share.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-11-20 12:35:24 and read 11979 times.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 4):
Likely all that means is the flight number will originate in MIA, highly doubt it will be the same aircraft on MIA-CLT-LHR.

Not quire sure. Might be a slot coming from AA/BA, which I think might require the plane to originate in Miami, too.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: C010T3
Posted 2012-11-20 12:35:27 and read 11979 times.

Well, the press release says:

The new service from Charlotte, N.C. will supplement the airline's existing daily service between its international gateway in Philadelphia and London Heathrow.

It's clear that Gatwick is as good as gone.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: FL787
Posted 2012-11-20 12:36:34 and read 11984 times.

This slot pair is from AA/BA as part of their carve out which is why it originates in MIA. DL was recently awarded a pair of slots from the carve out which will be a third ATL-LHR flight originating in DFW.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: C010T3
Posted 2012-11-20 12:51:30 and read 11978 times.

Quoting FL787 (Reply 8):
This slot pair is from AA/BA as part of their carve out which is why it originates in MIA. DL was recently awarded a pair of slots from the carve out which will be a third ATL-LHR flight originating in DFW.

Can we consider US on MIA-CLT-LHR an alternative allowed by the antitrust organs to replace DL's MIA-LHR?

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: FL787
Posted 2012-11-20 12:57:08 and read 11977 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 9):

Yes. The terms of the oneworld ATI were that they had to divest 4 slot pairs: 2 to BOS, 1 to DFW and MIA. If the DFW/MIA pairs were not used by 2013, they could be used for direct flights as we're seeing with US/DL.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: Byrdluvs747
Posted 2012-11-20 13:20:25 and read 11976 times.

If the merger occurs would the slot revert to being a carve out again thus discontinuing the CLT-LHR flight?

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: C010T3
Posted 2012-11-20 13:20:50 and read 11973 times.

Quoting FL787 (Reply 10):
Yes. The terms of the oneworld ATI were that they had to divest 4 slot pairs: 2 to BOS, 1 to DFW and MIA. If the DFW/MIA pairs were not used by 2013, they could be used for direct flights as we're seeing with US/DL.

Well, thank you for the info!

I guess it's the end of an era, then. There will be no US airlines left at Gatwick.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2012-11-20 18:47:43 and read 11398 times.

Been waiting for this for years, nice to see it will actually happen.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 7):
Well, the press release says:

The new service from Charlotte, N.C. will supplement the airline's existing daily service between its international gateway in Philadelphia and London Heathrow.

It's clear that Gatwick is as good as gone.

I'm not quite sure. Supplement usually means in addition to, does it not? The Charlotte Observer release says:

Quote:
US Airways said the new flights will supplement existing service from Charlotte to Gatwick, and hasn’t reached a final decision on whether the Gatwick service will continue or be shifted to Heathrow.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-11-20 18:53:05 and read 11358 times.

Once CLT-LHR is open, what do you think will happen to yields on CLT-LGW as US cannibalises it's own route? CO, NW, DL and now US all said they'd operate from both. Only DL lasted more than one summer at LGW after getting LHR slots.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: usairways85
Posted 2012-11-20 18:57:13 and read 11321 times.

With the current TA schedule including CLT-LHR hasn't US pretty much maxed out its 330s? If they want to continue CLT-LGW will it have to be a 762 or 752?

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: FI642
Posted 2012-11-20 19:03:42 and read 11289 times.

BA used to file a flight plan CLT-BWI-LHR and just cxl the CLT-BWI portion. Not sure why they did that- maybe to hold the slot?

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: C010T3
Posted 2012-11-20 20:00:17 and read 11038 times.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 13):
I'm not quite sure. Supplement usually means in addition to, does it not? The Charlotte Observer release says:

Well, I hadn't read the Charlotte Observer's article, but you see that the press release says that the service will supplement PHL-LHR, while the article attributes the supplement to CLT-LGW. Perhaps CLT-LGW will operate for the summer only to make US's case to axe it afterwards.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2012-11-20 20:22:15 and read 10930 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 14):
Once CLT-LHR is open, what do you think will happen to yields on CLT-LGW as US cannibalises it's own route? CO, NW, DL and now US all said they'd operate from both. Only DL lasted more than one summer at LGW after getting LHR slots.

US indeed flew PHL-LGW after launching LHR, I forget how long it lasted for...I think they lasted more than one summer. It was a 752 at the end.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):
Perhaps CLT-LGW will operate for the summer only to make US's case to axe it afterwards.

I could see this happening. I have noticed that on the LGW end, US has attracted quite a leisure based crowd connecting onwards to Florida. I wonder if this will change with the switch to LHR.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: shamrock604
Posted 2012-11-20 21:52:35 and read 10470 times.

Not strictly related to the new LHR service, but is there any truth in the rumour that the two seasonal Euro routes from CLT (Dublin and Madrid) are not doing so great?


I'd agree with others about LGW - It's probably as good as toast, which LGW's new owners will not be pleased about.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: fcaa321
Posted 2012-11-20 23:15:48 and read 10094 times.

I flew with US into Gatwick overnight this Sunday and the flight was full in both classes! they were even offering incentives due to overbooking. Fab airline with a great inflight product - shame about the staff and flight meal.

[Edited 2012-11-20 23:16:48]

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: ual777uk
Posted 2012-11-21 00:56:51 and read 9665 times.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 13):
I'm not quite sure. Supplement usually means in addition to, does it not?

Its clear its supplementing LHR - LHR. Sorry to say but US days at LGW are nearly over but i think its a good move, more higher yielding passengers will use LHR and lets be honest money talks.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: AussieItaliano
Posted 2012-11-21 01:28:54 and read 9500 times.

If only the authors of Bermuda II could see this! All US based airlines are now operating into LHR from all their US gateways. If LGW-CLT gets the axe, as I'm fairly certain it will, then only British carriers will be flying from LGW to the US.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-11-21 04:30:25 and read 8773 times.

Quoting vlad1971 (Thread starter):

Does it mean LGW base will be closed for US ??

Hope so. LHR is where people want to fly to when coming from North America for connections to other parts of the world, i.e. me. Now only if they could improve on their in-flight service that would be something.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-11-21 04:50:19 and read 8648 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 14):
Once CLT-LHR is open, what do you think will happen to yields on CLT-LGW as US cannibalises it's own route? CO, NW, DL and now US all said they'd operate from both. Only DL lasted more than one summer at LGW after getting LHR slots

The logical event to happen is that USairways ends flights to LGW and starts LHR the next day. WHY would US run double London flights to both airports ? Does US even have enough planes for such a crazy thing.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-11-21 05:43:39 and read 8653 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 24):
WHY would US run double London flights to both airports ? Does US even have enough planes for such a crazy thing.

They did it with LON-PHL with LGW reduced to a B757 and LHR getting the A333. It lasted a few months as much of the existing LGW traffic just used LHR. I think with the new STAR LHR Terminal 2 coming on line soon, it's a good move for them.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: southwest737500
Posted 2012-11-21 06:23:45 and read 8458 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 24):

Yep there getting 5 new A332 next year, GRU is getting a A332 next year, I have no idea when that routes starts

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-21 07:04:15 and read 8285 times.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 18):
I could see this happening. I have noticed that on the LGW end, US has attracted quite a leisure based crowd connecting onwards to Florida. I wonder if this will change with the switch to LHR.

If DFW, IAH, ATL, and PHL could not support both LHR and LGW, no way CLT can.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2012-11-21 07:22:59 and read 8109 times.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 19):
Dublin and Madrid) are not doing so great?

I was wondering the same, however they are both still in the schedule and US recently talked about CLT-DUB during the SNN press release.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: PHLwok
Posted 2012-11-21 07:29:58 and read 8097 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 25):
hey did it with LON-PHL with LGW reduced to a B757 and LHR getting the A333. It lasted a few months as much of the existing LGW traffic just used LHR. I think with the new STAR LHR Terminal 2 coming on line soon, it's a good move for them.

I flew PHL-LGW a fair bit back shortly after PHL-LHR started and before it was dropped as I had a client site relatively close to Gatwick. Loads were weak in the summer in coach and worse in business. When I flew to LHR, they were much healthier.

I see a lot more Star Alliance connections through LHR as well when I fly US there, which of course wasn't really ever possible at LGW save some regional flights within Europe.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-11-21 11:32:55 and read 6590 times.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 18):

I could see this happening. I have noticed that on the LGW end, US has attracted quite a leisure based crowd connecting onwards to Florida. I wonder if this will change with the switch to LHR

These are low yield customers, not the passengers that are needed to make money. The leisure crowd generally would like to go direct to Florida and generally use British based airlines. The end of Bermuda II crated a mass evacuation to LHR from LGW for every US based carrier, due to demand of the passengers.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2012-11-21 11:49:11 and read 6505 times.

So is Gatwick now basically a ghost town compared to what it was in years past? The only stories I ever read on here about LGW involve airlines leaving the airport.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: jumpjets
Posted 2012-11-21 12:25:26 and read 6392 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 31):
The only stories I ever read on here about LGW involve airlines leaving the airport.

Its not all doom and gloom, besides easyjets ever increasing presence Gatwick has recently attracted services to China Korea Vietnam and Turkey, to name a few.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-11-21 15:14:02 and read 6054 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 31):
So is Gatwick now basically a ghost town compared to what it was in years past? The only stories I ever read on here about LGW involve airlines leaving the airport.

Have a look at the Flight Arrivals / Departures on http://www.gatwickairport.com/flights/arrivals/

It's as busy as it ever was and remains the busiest single runway airport on Earth. It has however lost the BA hub, NW / DL, CO and now looks like losing US as well, however short haul remains busy and LGW's status as LHR's waiting room means both KE and CA have flights as well.
It's the ability to keep long haul in an open market where LHR dominates that's an issue, and the new owners GIP, may have gotten that part wrong. They've spent billions making LGW look awesome (in parts) when the main users are easyJet, Thomson, Virgin's beach fleet and nine based BA B777s on holiday flights. The based BA short haul fleet of 20 something B737/A319s remains for the minute as well.
They have also alienated flybe by overcharging them and lost much of Ryanair by....er charging them. However Norwegian is growing well and may be the next big thing. A long haul hub, well it's not(!)

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: cipango
Posted 2012-11-21 15:15:33 and read 6048 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 31):
So is Gatwick now basically a ghost town compared to what it was in years past? The only stories I ever read on here about LGW involve airlines leaving the airport.

Completely disagree. All airports have a few airlines leaving, even LHR.

LGW has done extremely well this year securing flights to Vietnam and China.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2012-11-21 23:44:07 and read 5601 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 14):
Once CLT-LHR is open, what do you think will happen to yields on CLT-LGW as US cannibalises it's own route?

I don't think the yields were anything great to begin with... but either way it's not gonna be pretty for the LGW flight.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):
Perhaps CLT-LGW will operate for the summer only to make US's case to axe it afterwards.

I see this as the most likely scenario.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-22 05:34:41 and read 5399 times.

Quoting cipango (Reply 34):
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 31):
So is Gatwick now basically a ghost town compared to what it was in years past? The only stories I ever read on here about LGW involve airlines leaving the airport.

Completely disagree. All airports have a few airlines leaving, even LHR.

LGW has done extremely well this year securing flights to Vietnam and China.

EK still has 3 daily LGW-DXB in addition to their 5 daily LHR-DXB. Not certain but I believe EK may be the only non-UK longhaul carrier (other than US currently) still serving both LHR and LGW.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-11-22 05:49:47 and read 5369 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 36):
Not certain but I believe EK may be the only non-UK longhaul carrier (other than US currently) still serving both LHR and LGW.

Air China and Korean Air are both thrice weekly while they wait for a suitable LHR slot to open up. Vietnam Airlines is also four weekly.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2012-11-22 15:48:15 and read 4921 times.

I don't understand how LGW doesn't have a tonne of US routes, including by US carriers. The airport serves a massive catchment area of millions, in some of the UK's wealthiest villages and towns. Brighton and the south coast alone! The success of Emirates, with three flights a day to DXB, mostly (all?) op by 777-300ER shows that the demand and yield is there. But the good people of Sussex are going west as well as east, surely. Yet there is no appetite from any airlines to fly from Sussex to North America, except for Caribbean resorts, charters to Canada and Vegas. Weird!

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 22):
only British carriers will be flying from LGW to the US

Very sad - and BA's network to the US is almost non-existent - Las Vegas, Tampa and Orlando. Wow.

PS I really hope US keep the CLT route at LGW as well as LHR. Time will tell.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-22 16:25:42 and read 4860 times.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 38):
But the good people of Sussex are going west as well as east, surely. Yet there is no appetite from any airlines to fly from Sussex to North America, except for Caribbean resorts, charters to Canada and Vegas. Weird!

Regardless of the potential market, it's been proven over many years that yields are significantly higher at LHR. Serving two airports also increases costs. If U.S. carriers had the same cost structure as EK, they might have a different position on serving both airports.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: miaami
Posted 2012-11-22 17:11:44 and read 4778 times.

Quoting FL787 (Reply 10):

Yes. The terms of the oneworld ATI were that they had to divest 4 slot pairs: 2 to BOS, 1 to DFW and MIA. If the DFW/MIA pairs were not used by 2013, they could be used for direct flights as we're seeing with US/DL.

Do the terms dictate that the same aircraft type be used? If they keep the same flight number MIA-CLT-LHR, could US fly a 320 or 737 from MIA-CLT and then a widebody from CLT to LHR?

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2012-11-22 17:49:07 and read 4726 times.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 38):
I don't understand how LGW doesn't have a tonne of US routes, including by US carriers. The airport serves a massive catchment area of millions, in some of the UK's wealthiest villages and towns. Brighton and the south coast alone! The success of Emirates, with three flights a day to DXB, mostly (all?) op by 777-300ER shows that the demand and yield is there. But the good people of Sussex are going west as well as east, surely. Yet there is no appetite from any airlines to fly from Sussex to North America, except for Caribbean resorts, charters to Canada and Vegas. Weird!

It's not complex and it has been covered off numerous times. To serve LGW long haul one ideally needs to duplicate a LHR service, as to not serve LHR is to miss the higher yielding and connecting traffic. This is a commonly understood market behaviour. There are numerous examples of which we have discussed on these very boards.

CO moving to LHR and pulling all LGW after having said they would serve both.
NW doing the same, DL finally pulling out and now US.

How does the success of Emirates show yield is there for long haul US traffic when BA's worst yielding service to JFK was the recently re-re-introduced then axed LGW-JFK? LGW has point to point well coevered but has never been a hub in the way LHR is. Hence serving LHR one gets both point to point and connectivity whereas serving LGW gets point to point with lower yield and much loess connectivity. The bottom line is profit and that is a LGW v LHR battle which explains why no US carrier remains at LGW.
The remaining long haul fleets are very strong on point to point going West. Emirates have a niche ALL of their own. Remember in recent years both QR and EY gave up at LGW and moved everything to LHR. EK are quite the exception to the rules.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: N62NA
Posted 2012-11-22 20:21:51 and read 4522 times.

Quoting miaami (Reply 40):
could US fly a 320 or 737 from MIA-CLT and then a widebody from CLT to LHR?

That would be my guess.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2012-11-23 18:01:39 and read 4016 times.

Quoting miaami (Reply 40):
If they keep the same flight number MIA-CLT-LHR, could US fly a 320 or 737 from MIA-CLT and then a widebody from CLT to LHR?

Yes. This is the standard for all TATL routes that US flies where the flight number doesn't originate in PHL or CLT. For example, US700 currently serves LAX-PHL-FRA. The LAX-PHL segment is on an A321, while the PHL-FRA is on an A333.

The technical term is "change-of-gauge".... another term (and practice) from the railroads.

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: southwest737500
Posted 2012-11-23 18:19:05 and read 3987 times.

I mean it not complicated

LAX-CLT 704 A321 then it turns into CLT-FRA 704 on a A333 I took this flight in the summer it probably because they have a lot of passengers connecting to go FRA

Topic: RE: US Airways To LHR From CLT
Username: planesailing
Posted 2012-11-23 19:03:03 and read 3923 times.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 38):
I don't understand how LGW doesn't have a tonne of US routes, including by US carriers. The airport serves a massive catchment area of millions, in some of the UK's wealthiest villages and towns. Brighton and the south coast alone! The success of Emirates, with three flights a day to DXB, mostly (all?) op by 777-300ER shows that the demand and yield is there. But the good people of Sussex are going west as well as east, surely. Yet there is no appetite from any airlines to fly from Sussex to North America, except for Caribbean resorts, charters to Canada and Vegas. Weird!

It is a phenomenon of human psychology why the money prefers to fly from LHR over LGW.

I worked for DL before they pulled the 9 from LGW. Whilst loads would have appeared reasonable over the time I was there, it was dominated by strong loads in Y and weak loads in J. Most of the time we were upgrading FQTV's and SFE Y passengers into the J seats as class wise we were oversold, but cross ship had space available. Obviously for the bottom line, it isn't good to have a £400 Y passenger sitting in a £3000 J seat. Furthermore, there is little incentive for the FQTV's to be purchasing J class seats if they know the worst they are going to get for their money is a Y+ seat and the best, a J seat, all for a Y fare.

LGW has made a rod for it's own back now allowing U2 to expand to the level it has now become, there is little to no chance of a carrier making long haul ops from the airport work without connections. The only connections I ever had whilst with DL was EK passengers going to PTY.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/