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Topic: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2012-11-22 13:58:34 and read 18388 times.

Iberia is currently studying the possibility of suspending its operations between its MAD hub and Havana, Santo Domingo and San José. Apparently, these 3 long-haul routes aren't profitable enough for IB.


Full story: http://www.preferente.com/noticias-d...o-domingo-y-costa-rica-235052.html

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-11-22 14:05:50 and read 18435 times.

IB made a huge mistake not ordering A330s 5-6 years ago and now they're paying the price of having to operate their TATL routes with some of the least efficient aircraft there are for these routes.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: nostrum
Posted 2012-11-22 14:52:29 and read 18165 times.

Since IB merged with BA their future looks like a hell. Cutting most of its short-haul routes, reducing their long haul ancient a/c and thousands of job cuts. After the merger, service remains as horrible as before and ancient looking cabins (even in brand new A346s).

Thanks to no competition, they were only good with its Latin American routes, but aren't even good at that anymore. This winter AF offered 10x 77W to HAV and KL offered 3x MD11 (6 extra frequencies in total compared to last year's AF daily), SU offered 5x (compared to last winter's 3x), VS added an extra frequency to HAV as well.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: runway23
Posted 2012-11-22 14:53:00 and read 18155 times.

I have a hard time believing there isn't enough volume to make these flights profitable.

Is this the case of having aircraft that are perhaps too many premium seats on their long haul aircraft? Perhaps a small sub fleet of less premium heavy aircraft would enable them to be profitable on these markets.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: MFC
Posted 2012-11-22 15:00:18 and read 18096 times.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 3):
Is this the case of having aircraft that are perhaps too many premium seats on their long haul aircraft? Perhaps a small sub fleet of less premium heavy aircraft would enable them to be profitable on these markets.

They already converted 7 A340s to high density configuration for that destinations. 24J+265Y instead of 36J+218Y. Anyway, I have read that they are planning to end PTY, GUA, SJU and SSA too. Nothing about SJO thought...

I have also read that they are thinking about ending MVD, LAX, GIG and LAD. But nothing is sure as the sources are not trustful.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: peterinlisbon
Posted 2012-11-22 15:02:27 and read 18099 times.

If they cut the San José route, that's really bad for people that live in Costa Rica - it's the only direct flight they have to Europe and to go via the USA they would need a visa (which most people can't easily get).

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-22 15:06:35 and read 18049 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
Anyway, I have read that they are planning to end PTY, GUA, SJU and SSA too.

IB does not serve SSA.

Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
I have also read that they are thinking about ending MVD, LAX, GIG and LAD. But nothing is sure as the sources are not trustful.

Interestingly, it has been mentioned that LATAM is interested in launching GIG-MAD...

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: MFC
Posted 2012-11-22 15:11:31 and read 18016 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
IB does not serve SSA.

Sorry, I meant SAL, San Salvador. I mess up between that two cities often.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: RCS763AV
Posted 2012-11-22 15:13:29 and read 18016 times.

Wow! Of those three the only market which doesn't have heavy demand to Europe would be SDQ. But HAV and SJO?

Quoting nostrum (Reply 2):
Thanks to no competition, they were only good with its Latin American routes, but aren't even good at that anymore. This winter AF offered 10x 77W to HAV and KL offered 3x MD11 (6 extra frequencies in total compared to last year's AF daily), SU offered 5x (compared to last winter's 3x), VS added an extra frequency to HAV as well.

The only competitors that IB have on TATL that have inferior service to them are AR and AA. Every other airline offers a much superior product than Iberia on every market they serve. It's kinda sad, 10 years ago they dictated the market.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: MFC
Posted 2012-11-22 15:16:11 and read 17985 times.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 5):
If they cut the San José route, that's really bad for people that live in Costa Rica

I don't think they are ending SJO. Iberia CEO said they want to keep all destinations to 7-14 flights a week. Iberia flies daily to SJO, so it isn't on the list. Anyway, this is pure speculation, I thought PTY was profitable and it seems not.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-22 15:18:11 and read 17975 times.

Quoting nostrum (Reply 2):

Since IB merged with BA their future looks like a hell. Cutting most of its short-haul routes, reducing their long haul ancient a/c and thousands of job cuts. After the merger, service remains as horrible as before and ancient looking cabins (even in brand new A346s).

It's not entirely related to the merger. Spain's economy is in dire straights. Also, IB has no one but itself to blame if their Latin American routes are turning out to be a disaster; they have long enjoyed many competitive advantages (geography of the MAD hub, little to no competition, ethnic ties, OneWorld connections, etc) to sustain their long-haul network. Put simply, the airline lost its way and its brand has suffered a a result.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: polot
Posted 2012-11-22 15:31:14 and read 17901 times.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 8):
Wow! Of those three the only market which doesn't have heavy demand to Europe would be SDQ. But HAV and SJO?

But how much of that traffic is actually high(er) yielding business traffic versus VFR and tourists? (Note I am legitimately asking, not trying to make a point)

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2012-11-22 15:55:19 and read 17784 times.

Quoting nostrum (Reply 2):
After the merger, service remains as horrible as before and ancient looking cabins (even in brand new A346s).

That's true. Some people, including myself, believed that after the merger IB's customer service and their passenger experience would improve, but alas, this was not the case.


.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 3):
I have a hard time believing there isn't enough volume to make these flights profitable.

I think it's not a matter of volume, but a matter of yields.



.

Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
I have read that they are planning to end PTY, GUA, SJU and SSA too. Nothing about SJO thought...
I have also read that they are thinking about ending MVD, LAX, GIG and LAD. But nothing is sure as the sources are
not trustful.

I have a hard time believing they would end Panama City and San José as they're the richest cities in Central America with a decent premium demand.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: IBERIA747
Posted 2012-11-22 16:33:11 and read 17710 times.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Thread starter):
San José
Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
Nothing about SJO thought...
Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 5):
If they cut the San José route, that's really bad for people that live in Costa Rica
Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 8):
SJO?
Quoting MFC (Reply 9):
Iberia flies daily to SJO, so it isn't on the list.

It's SJU that has been mentioned, not SJO. Someone must have mixed the codes when writing that report.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 12):
I have a hard time believing they would end Panama City and San José as they're the richest cities in Central America with a decent premium demand.

Well...actually, the "star" destination for Iberia in Central America (according to IB) has always been GUA (largest city in Central America by far). It has been served without interruption since 1971. San José has only gained more traffic due to leisure (CR has become the most important touristic destination in Central America) as well as connections to MGA, TGU, SAP, end even SAL and GUA, and this seems to be what will save them from being slashed off from Iberia's network while GUA, PTY and SAL will probably be axed.

Premium demand in Central American routes has never been very good.

[Edited 2012-11-22 16:39:33]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-22 16:34:45 and read 17673 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 1):
IB made a huge mistake not ordering A330s 5-6 years ago and now they're paying the price of having to operate their TATL routes with some of the least efficient aircraft there are for these routes.

That would have been a bad plan - consider the particulars of their hub at MAD. It's only recently that the A333 has caught the A343 up in terms of economics and performance from hot/high airports, which is why they went with the four engine types in the first place. An A332 could have been used, but that would have been a drop in capacity and at the time Spain's economy wasn't in melt-down.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2012-11-22 16:38:20 and read 17632 times.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 13):
It's SJU and NOT SJO that has been mentioned.

Well, that makes sense. Thanks for correcting the news article.

[Edited 2012-11-22 16:39:36]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: laca773
Posted 2012-11-22 17:27:21 and read 17549 times.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 12):
That's true. Some people, including myself, believed that after the merger IB's customer service and their passenger experience would improve, but alas, this was not the case.

I think many of us thought we would see IAG go in there and do an overhaul to IB's hard and soft products, including their inconsistent cabin crews. Clearly this has happened. Perhaps they have put off doing anything until they decide what they were going to have to do with a/c and routes first before committing millions of euros to fix their ancient products.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 14):
That would have been a bad plan - consider the particulars of their hub at MAD. It's only recently that the A333 has caught the A343 up in terms of economics and performance from hot/high airports, which is why they went with the four engine types in the first place. An A332 could have been used, but that would have been a drop in capacity and at the time Spain's economy wasn't in melt-down.

I know it's too late now, but why didn't IB go with 767/777s instead? It would seem they would have been a good fit for the international flying they do,.

Thoughts about IAG adding 777/787s to the IB fleet?

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: AA767LOVER
Posted 2012-11-22 17:34:28 and read 17506 times.

Well, how are load factors on SJO? Last time I saw, in April, the whole departures lounge at Gate 2 was completely full. I was greatly encouraged to see this. It was really stunning seeing an IB 346 given that I live in HKG. The only 346 coming this way is VS.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: avi8
Posted 2012-11-22 17:50:19 and read 17474 times.

I hear GUA is doing excellent. I doubt it will be axed. GUA is the largest city in Central America. I also doubt SJO will be axed as SJO is a huge turist destination. Maybe not SJO but Costa Rica as a country

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: AR385
Posted 2012-11-22 18:22:45 and read 17394 times.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 5):
f they cut the San José route, that's really bad for people that live in Costa Rica - it's the only direct flight they have to Europe and to go via the USA they would need a visa (which most people can't easily get).

They can always fly to MEX with AM and connect seamlessly to MAD. Same with AV at BOG.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 12):
I have a hard time believing they would end Panama City and San José as they're the richest cities in Central America with a decent premium demand.
Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 13):
Premium demand in Central American routes has never been very good.

Exactly. Those routes have always been about ethnic and VFR traffic, which tends to be the lowest yielding. Otherwise CM and TA would have already launched TATL flights. Maybe if IB configured a few A343s as economy only, high density, Central America may work.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 13):
It's SJU that has been mentioned, not SJO. Someone must have mixed the codes when writing that report.

Oh. That makes sense. Still, SJO remains mostly a toruist market.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2012-11-22 18:36:13 and read 17323 times.

The real problem lies with SAL.....GUA does well but has runway length / altitude issues so they need a triangle route. Perhaps they should move it to SAP...

Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
I have read that they are planning to end PTY, GUA, SJU and SSA too. Nothing about SJO thought...

Then why did they increase PTY last year? SJO is going nowhere...that flight does well.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 5):
If they cut the San José route, that's really bad for people that live in Costa Rica - it's the only direct flight they have to Europe and to go via the USA they would need a visa (which most people can't easily get).

o, boo hoo....they would suffer like the rest of us!  
Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 12):
I have a hard time believing they would end Panama City and San José as they're the richest cities in Central America with a decent premium demand.


Not to mention in PTY, Minister Salo would bust out the checkbook to keep them as it was him that busted out the checkbook in the first place to decouple MAD-GUA-PTY and make it dedicated. Lotta pride there.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-22 18:39:30 and read 17315 times.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 16):
I know it's too late now, but why didn't IB go with 767/777s instead? It would seem they would have been a good fit for the international flying they do,.

For largely the same reason; in hot and high conditions the advantage big twins have over quads is compromised - this was especially the case when IB ordered their first A340s. Also the 767 would have been a little small. It's not such a problem if you have one or two airports in your network where a twin won't perform as well as a quad, but when it's your home airport you need to make decisions around that factor. This is also why SAA went for the A340, because JNB is considerably higher than MAD.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: cosyr
Posted 2012-11-22 19:25:10 and read 17036 times.

Maybe, they should add a couple extra daily flights to MIA, and AA can add some additional flights from MIA to each of these destinations (except HAV obviously). Maybe it would even be possible to do a Joint Venture from MIA to central America and Caribbean.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: danimarroquin
Posted 2012-11-22 19:30:24 and read 17010 times.

Sounds to me for a great opportunity for AV to bring a A330 to SJO and cover the route .

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: AR385
Posted 2012-11-22 19:40:09 and read 16951 times.

Quoting danimarroquin (Reply 23):
Sounds to me for a great opportunity for AV to bring a A330 to SJO and cover the route .

Exactly. Same good opportunity for AM, but how are the bilaterals structured for this?

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-22 21:18:32 and read 17110 times.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 3):
I have a hard time believing there isn't enough volume to make these flights profitable.
Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 12):
I think it's not a matter of volume, but a matter of yields.

It's a combination: If this was Spain, during their economic boom, we wouldn't be talking about this. Spain has 50%-something unemployment, and these are services to some rather poorer countries, in comparison and relation. Sure they can fill the plane, but at what price? the A346, coupled with pared-down fares to actually fill the planes with customers able to afford the flights, coupled with the fact that Spain is taxing the living jesus out of anything moving right now....yeah, it is hell over at IB right now.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: NASCARAirforce
Posted 2012-11-22 21:30:32 and read 17017 times.

Maybe they need to do what they did back in the 1990s when IB had the hub at MIA. I believe IB used to base 2-3 MD-87s at MIA and bring in an extra A340 or 747 from MAD and send the MD-87s to South America from MIA. Maybe they need to bring in an extra A340 earlier in the day and base 3-4 A319s at MIA to feed to the Carribean routes. Air France is currently doing it to Port Au Prince with an A320 out of MIA

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: danimarroquin
Posted 2012-11-22 21:43:54 and read 17323 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 24):

well I think more for AV , since TA will disappear and become AV and SJO is the new central America connection center for Star alliance , sounds like a better deal for AV to operate the route then AM . AV colombia will received the firsts 787s around 2014 and will be spreading there A330s around central America , Brazil and PERU . LIM already received the first A330 and will be flying to Madrid soon !!!!

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2012-11-22 22:15:08 and read 17178 times.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 22):
Maybe, they should add a couple extra daily flights to MIA, and AA can add some additional flights from MIA to each of these destinations (except HAV obviously).
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 26):
Maybe they need to do what they did back in the 1990s when IB had the hub at MIA. I believe IB used to base 2-3 MD-87s at MIA and bring in an extra A340 or 747 from MAD and send the MD-87s to South America from MIA.

Not gonna work. You do remember that Latin Americans need a regular US Visa just to transit any US airport, right ?


As for basing a single A330 at SJO to fly TATL, that doesn't sound like a good idea. I think AV would rather prefer Central Americans to fly to Europe via its BOG hub.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: fraapproach
Posted 2012-11-22 23:24:20 and read 16926 times.

I flew MAD-SJO-MAD in March / April this year on A 346. Inbound I got upgraded to business and next to me was the only empty seat on the whole plane. Return was likewise full (but no upgrade). On this trip I read in the Iberia onboard magazine that IB wanted to go all days full year A346 on the MAD-SJO route (was a mix of A346 and 343 before).

Considering the short runway with only one takeoff direction and the cliff at the end of the runway I felt quite comfortable in a fourholer. There is not a lot of margin for errors taking off / landing in SJO with a widebody.

[Edited 2012-11-22 23:37:40]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: santos
Posted 2012-11-22 23:32:01 and read 16845 times.

I read online that Iberia says only 8 of 24 long-haul routes and 2 of 40 domestic routes are profitable.
If this is true, some routes will have to be cut to "save" the airline.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: summa767
Posted 2012-11-22 23:35:40 and read 16784 times.

Quoting danimarroquin (Reply 27):
well I think more for AV , since TA will disappear and become AV and SJO is the new central America connection center for Star alliance , sounds like a better deal for AV to operate the route then AM

First of all, the original article does NOT mention SJO as being one of the destinations to be cut: It mentions SJU.
Second of all, AV has no spare aircraft at the moment, and indeed i only has one A330 to come next year to be based in LIM, which will only just about be enough to serve MIA.
Third, AM cannot operate flights from SJO o MAD, but the implication is that they pax can connect!

Anyway, IB needs to do some cutting, and the lower yielding routes such as Santo Domingo and Havana that may well have to go, at least until the company gets a grip on the cost base.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-11-22 23:58:19 and read 16669 times.

Considering IAG just 2-weeks ago stated they will remove 25 aircraft from IB this winter including 5 long-haul birds, its only natural the bottom performing long-haul markets will get the axe. There simply are not enough birds to operate the current network.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LH506
Posted 2012-11-23 01:37:14 and read 16120 times.

I guess another reason is that IB has more and more competition on its routes compared to a couple of years ago:

Just some examples of airlines adding Latin American cities recently.
HAV: AF, KL, VS...
PTY: KL
BOG: LH
LIM: AF
GIG: LH, AZ, QR?, EK?, KL, BA
GRU: TK, EK, QR
EZE: BA (non-stop), KL

Having an inferior product, means that you lose high yielding (connecting) traffic.

Now I believe this will only get worse.

It is matter of time until either CM, AV or LH will start LIM or SJO or PTY to FRA/MAD. By that more high yielding *A traffic will move away. Curently they do not have an alternative.

It is a matter of time until EK, TK or QR will start MEX, CCS, BOG, LIM, SCL, PTY...

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: r2rho
Posted 2012-11-23 01:42:46 and read 16149 times.

The A340's are not the reason, despite a.net myths - high labor costs (remaining internal structures from the government-monopoly days, low productivity, etc) are IMO. The A330's (which only today can perform routes that were not possible when IB bought their A340's for very good reason) will help to increase profitability, but they are not a silver bullet. And it is not being said that these routes are not profitable, but not profitable enough.

I wonder what will be of IB with the severe cuts announced with no real known recovery plan. I would have expected the cuts to happen in North America, handing the routes to BA-AA, but not in LatAm. IB without LatAm is nothing. If they retreat from there, they will hand over the market to LAN-TAM and Avianca-TACA, and may never gain it back again.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: migair54
Posted 2012-11-23 04:25:05 and read 15350 times.

IB dig their on grave during all this years offering far more inferior product and ignoring the paxs, so now they will pay the consequences, I used to fly MAD-HAV and as soon as UX introduce the A330 I started flying with them, 10 hours in a IB plane is a pain but at least in UX (it´s not much better) I could enjoy watching movies and the planes where more comfortable. Services is the same by the way.

I guess some of the A333 joining soon will operate this routes exactly, but this is also a descend in the yields given the big economical crisis Spain is suffering as well.

Soon LAN will be flying a state of the art B787 with all the entertainment, comfort levels and on board new products to MAD and IB will be flying an almost 20 year old A340 to SCL, if you compare after flying both, what would you do next to fly the route again??, it´s an easy answer.

Quoting LH506 (Reply 33):
It is a matter of time until EK, TK or QR will start MEX, CCS, BOG, LIM, SCL, PTY...

In my opinion this will hurt much more to AF, BA and LH than IB because middle east carriers will steal pax flying to Asia and IB don´t go there that much, only TLV, CAI and DME could be affected a bit.

Quoting santos (Reply 30):
I read online that Iberia says only 8 of 24 long-haul routes and 2 of 40 domestic routes are profitable.
If this is true, some routes will have to be cut to "save" the airline.

If this is true it is better they close down and start on another business....

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 26):
Maybe they need to do what they did back in the 1990s when IB had the hub at MIA. I believe IB used to base 2-3 MD-87s at MIA and bring in an extra A340 or 747 from MAD and send the MD-87s to South America from MIA. Maybe they need to bring in an extra A340 earlier in the day and base 3-4 A319s at MIA to feed to the Carribean routes. Air France is currently doing it to Port Au Prince with an A320 out of MIA

That was close because of the problems for many people connecting to Central America to obtain a transit visa, but i think IB could start a codeshare with an airline like Cubana and send pax to some caribbean and central America destinations using HAV, a place where they can grow together and sooner or later Cuba will have a big boom in the air travelling, so getting positions now will give them a nice advantage. Places, like Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras, Yucatan, Haiti, El salvador, Cuba, they can be serve from HAV with Cubana and Aerocaribbean if they make an effort to work out the schedules and using IB and CU metal.
I know it´s difficult but given COPA and TACA are already taken, Mexicana gone, what else is left in the zone???

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: AF086
Posted 2012-11-23 05:13:59 and read 15057 times.

Quoting LH506 (Reply 33):
Just some examples of airlines adding Latin American cities recently.

GIG: LH, AZ, QR?, EK?, KL, BA

Having an inferior product, means that you lose high yielding (connecting) traffic.
BA wasn't a new carrier. They have been serving GIG continously for decades. The change made a few years ago was, like EZE, the change to a dedicated nonstop service.

QR didn't start GIG yet. Romours are circulating for quite some time. And EK did begin GIG last year.

As far as GIG is concerned IB has two major "yield killers": the inferior product and the lousy and inconsistent schedule. IB keeps changing it every other month!

So far it is:

IB6025 MAD 1135 1925 GIG 343/346 SaSu
IB6025 MAD 1245 2035 GIG 343/346 TuThFr
IB6027 MAD 1325 2115 GIG 343/346 Mo

IB6026 GIG 0055 1405 MAD 343/346 TuWeFrSa
IB6024 GIG 2055 1005 MAD 343/346 SaSu

It is VERY hard to prevail with this commitment to the market. It is known that redeye flights both ways attact higher yields, hence LH that recently changed their GIG schedule from daylight/redeye to redeye/redeye.

BA, for that matter, also have a bad schedule at GIG but they don't keep changing the number of weekly flights and schedules every other month or so. BA could use a redeye/redeye service as well given their more premium approach but I guess LHR slots are the catch there.

[Edited 2012-11-23 05:16:02]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2012-11-23 05:39:35 and read 14865 times.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 26):
used to base 2-3 MD-87s at MIA and bring in an extra A340 or 747 from MAD and send the MD-87s to South America from MIA. Maybe they need to bring in an extra A340 earlier in the day and base 3-4 A319s at MIA to feed to the Carribean routes.

And what do they do with the aircraft after this run.....untilization of 5 hours per day jsut won't cut it. I used to to see the IB MD sit on the tarmac in GUA for long periods every day and all night.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 28):
Not gonna work. You do remember that Latin Americans need a regular US Visa just to transit any US airport, right ?

Well it can if there is no other choice. I get my 10yr visa to go thru MIA on my way to Europe. Also the vast majority of those that can fly to Europe can get a US visa. Its a hassle yes, US FIS is a hassel yes, but will it stop us.....no.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-11-23 05:47:42 and read 14826 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 14):
That would have been a bad plan - consider the particulars of their hub at MAD. It's only recently that the A333 has caught the A343 up in terms of economics and performance from hot/high airports, which is why they went with the four engine types in the first place. An A332 could have been used, but that would have been a drop in capacity and at the time Spain's economy wasn't in melt-down.

That's all true but for much older variants. Not for 2006-2007 and newer A333s.
They desperately need A333's now and have needed them for about 5 years when oil prices really started to go up. These A333's would have been very helpful for N.American routes like BOS, IAD, ORD, HAV, SDQ, SJU, MIA.
They finally ordered some A333's last year. Lets hope that's not too little too late. Considering they don't have any A350's or 787's on order yet, that means they will be operating A330/A340's when most of the competition will be flying A350's/787's and the price of fuel shows no signs of going down.
One last thing. A drop in capacity operated at a profit is still better than a larger plane operated at a loss, which is what is happening with some of the A340 routes.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LH506
Posted 2012-11-23 06:38:53 and read 14511 times.

Quoting AF086 (Reply 36):
BA wasn't a new carrier. They have been serving GIG continously for decades. The change made a few years ago was, like EZE, the change to a dedicated nonstop service

I always thought that BA came back to GIG two or three years ago, after having it discontinued for many years. They were one of the first to return during the GIG hype. AZ, LH and KL followed. But then I am not 100% sure.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: danimarroquin
Posted 2012-11-23 07:54:57 and read 14017 times.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 31):

My friend read the article well ..... is SJO " costa rica " not SJU !!!!! TA's first N279AV A330 is already at LIM with the SA colors and getting ready for operations to US and BOG . MAD will be ready for next year are the plans , and of course AV has no planes now ! In order for AV to spare the plane , it will receive the extra A330 that gets deliver next year and the 787s will start to arrived on 2014 making the wide body fleet larger .

[Edited 2012-11-23 07:58:23]

[Edited 2012-11-23 07:59:33]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: peterinlisbon
Posted 2012-11-23 08:14:08 and read 13851 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
They can always fly to MEX with AM and connect seamlessly to MAD. Same with AV at BOG.

Sure, but those options both add 3 hours of flying time and Avianca / Mexican don't offer many destinations in Europe (Iberia can get you almost anywhere). Plus I imagine, with less competitions prices will skyrocket and they are already ridiculous.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: AF086
Posted 2012-11-23 09:19:12 and read 13451 times.

Quoting LH506 (Reply 39):
I always thought that BA came back to GIG two or three years ago, after having it discontinued for many years. They were one of the first to return during the GIG hype. AZ, LH and KL followed. But then I am not 100% sure.

I am 100% sure. BA serves GIG continously for decades since British Caledonian, actually IIRC. Until a few years ago BA flew LHR-GRU-GIG 3x weekly and LHR-GRU-EZE 4x weekly. First with the 772 then with the 744. Then it became LHR-GIG 3x weekly daylight/redeye with the 772 and LHR-GRU-EZE daily with the 744. Then they separated EZE.

Nowdays BA flies LHR-GIG 6x weekly daylight/redeye with the 772.

LH, KL and AZ served GIG for decades as well but discontinued the service resuming their services a bit more than a year ago (AZ first then LH and after KL).

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: danimarroquin
Posted 2012-11-23 09:20:51 and read 13413 times.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 41):

well the idea is that if IB decides to leave SJO , AV would transfer one of the A330s to SJO like it did with LIM . since TA name will go away and become AV , people wont have to fly to BOG to get to the flight to MAD in order to fly on AV . AV is a member of the SA and the owner of TAP " by then " , which would make great connections in europe with TAP , LH and other star alliance members in Europe .

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: MFC
Posted 2012-11-23 09:23:30 and read 13422 times.

Iberia is working on improving their inflight and ground service. A346s will start to be retrofitted on December with new Business Plus and Economy (with PTVs) cabins. The chosen seats are:
- Sogerma Solstys for Business Plus ( which can be found on Alitalia or Etihad planes)
- Weber 5751 for Economy Class ( http://www.weberair.com/seating-systems/economy-class.htm# )

IFE system will be Panasonic. A330s will be delivered with that seats.

If I had to choose between flying in Economy to SCL on a LAN's 787 or on an Iberia's 346 with the new interior, I would go for the later, no matter how modern the 787 were, and just for a simply reason: 3-3-3 cramped configuration on the 787 vs. 2-4-2 on the 346.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-11-23 09:25:53 and read 13386 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 34):
The A340's are not the reason, despite a.net myths

Well at the November 9th meeting when the IB transformation plan was revealed one of the two bullet point challenges in the longhaul network listed in their presentation was.

"A340 fleet cost"

Additionally later they again made mention the A340 fleet leaves IB with "gap in cost and product"


So the A340s are certainly part of the problem.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: AA767400
Posted 2012-11-23 09:31:50 and read 13356 times.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 31):
First of all, the original article does NOT mention SJO as being one of the destinations to be cut: It mentions SJU.

Which is weird because that would mean they want to eliminate all their Caribbean services. However - unlike HAV/SDQ, SJU has no other direct flights to Europe, which IB has no competition on.

Quoting danimarroquin (Reply 40):
My friend read the article well ..... is SJO " costa rica " not SJU !!!!!

Interesting indeed.

Out of the three Caribbean destinations, SJU would be the most profitable IMHO. A sheer monopoly, with a stronger currency, and viable cruise ship/tourist factor. SDQ/HAV has several other airlines undercutting IB, with generally lower yielding all-inclusive resorts.

Time shall tell...

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-23 10:01:41 and read 13112 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 38):
That's all true but for much older variants. Not for 2006-2007 and newer A333s.

It was more recently than that according to my sources. The A333 has been suitable for some routes for a while but until recent upgrades (aside of HGW variant) it didn't significantly outperform the A343 on enough to make it worthwhile. Yes the A333 burns less fuel, but the A343 could lift more payload.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 38):
They desperately need A333's now and have needed them for about 5 years when oil prices really started to go up. These A333's would have been very helpful for N.American routes like BOS, IAD, ORD, HAV, SDQ, SJU, MIA.

Yes and no. Something like the A333HGW would sound ideal for IB, but they've not gone for it, apparently because they wouldn't come close to being able to use the extra weight or range out of MAD.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: regupilot
Posted 2012-11-23 10:16:59 and read 13011 times.

Quoting danimarroquin (Reply 40):
My friend read the article well ..... is SJO " costa rica " not SJU !!!!!

Being from Colombia, I am sure you do read Spanish well. In this copy paste, it mentions SAN JUAN PUERTO RICO way too clearly.

Quote:
Iberia está estudiando dejar de volar desde Madrid hacia La Habana (Cuba), Santo Domingo (República Dominicana) y San Juan (Puerto Rico), según han asegurado a preferente.com fuentes del sector. El motivo es la baja rentabilidad de estas conexiones.
Quoting AA767400 (Reply 46):
Out of the three Caribbean destinations, SJU would be the most profitable IMHO.

I'm not sure if this is true. I haven't flown the route but, even though it is the only direct flight, locals and visitors have waaayy tooo many options to choose from at lower prices by connecting through mainland USA. Remember Puertorricans need no visa to visit Spain, much less to connect through USA. Same for Spaniards. They don't even fly daily to SJU. While visiting Spain, I noticed few people knew about Puerto Rico. By comparison, the Dominican Republic was advertised as a paradise island everywhere and people did knew about so, I'm surprised about SDQ. Sometimes they even have 2 flights a day to the island. At the end, I guess competition is the issue... people could go direct with Air Europa or go through France or Germany without stepping on USA land, which would pose visa issues to Dominicans.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: miaskies
Posted 2012-11-23 10:35:47 and read 12903 times.

Quoting regupilot (Reply 48):

In essence IB does not need SJU anymore. Perhaps in the stronger days of the massive AA/AE hub operation at SJU it worked but not anymore. IB can easily route Spain bound passengers via MIA (AA Kingdom) who has non stop service to Madrid and Barcelona on AA and of course non stop service to Madrid on IB. An extra stop for passengers? yes, but business wise perhaps it is a smarter move. While SJU has been served for many years due to the cultural ties (as in Cuba), the market now a days has changed, Spain's economy is not doing very well as is that of Puerto Rico.

I would be shocked to see SDQ pulled, perhaps reducing flights but not pulling out overall. Have they or ever considered serving PUJ instead?

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: AR385
Posted 2012-11-23 10:39:48 and read 12879 times.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 41):
Sure, but those options both add 3 hours of flying time and Avianca / Mexican don't offer many destinations in Europe (Iberia can get you almost anywhere). Plus I imagine, with less competitions prices will skyrocket and they are already ridiculous.

Yes, it is inconvenient, but I was responding to this:

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 5):
If they cut the San José route, that's really bad for people that live in Costa Rica - it's the only direct flight they have to Europe and to go via the USA they would need a visa (which most people can't easily get).


If you don´t have a VISA for the US, then what do you do?

Now, can someone clear up once and for all if we are talking about San Jose, Costa Rica, or San Juan Puerto Rico? Most of the discussion on this thread is meaningless if that can´t be established for good.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LH506
Posted 2012-11-23 10:50:37 and read 12765 times.

Quoting AF086 (Reply 42):

That's it. They started the nonstop again    

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: summa767
Posted 2012-11-23 11:23:14 and read 12459 times.

Quoting danimarroquin (Reply 40):
My friend read the article well ..... is SJO " costa rica " not SJU !!!!!
Quoting AR385 (Reply 50):
Now, can someone clear up once and for all if we are talking about San Jose, Costa Rica, or San Juan Puerto Rico?

There is nothing official in any case. Both destinations still appear on Amadeus. However, it makes sense that it would be SJU and *not* SJO for 2 reasons:

First: the source. Preferente is notoriously unreliable and biased. Other sources, including national newspaper ABC, went for SJU.
Second: IB has been quoted as saying that long haul destinations are more efficiently served either at 1 daily or 2 daily frequencies, and less than that does not work out well. SJO is daily, SJO is 3 x weekly.

Quoting danimarroquin (Reply 40):
and of course AV has no planes now ! In order for AV to spare the plane , it will receive the extra A330 that gets deliver next year and the 787s will start to arrived on 2014 making the wide body fleet larger .

Yes, that A330 is going to LIM. It cannot possibly be spared for SJO. Or do you think that LIM-MAD should be sacrificed for SJO-MAD?! or perhaps wait until 787s are delivered in 2014 for a hypothetical SJO-MAD in the also hypothetical case that IB stop serving that destination? By then, IB might have got over the worse and be in growing mood again.
I would hope so, except that the pilots might well get in the way.



Talking about unreliable publications, there are some ridiculous things being written in Spain about how IB is doing badly, because BA is stealing its business. That is following the tune of Iberia's pilot union. Some comments and opinions are outright xenophobic.

As a mild example, there is this:
http://vozpopuli.com/empresas/17527-...s-rutas-al-caribe-de-habla-hispana

In which it says that Iberia's commercial director, the British Gavin Halliday, has proposed to grant to BA Iberia's routes to Spanish speaking caribbean (!). Simply delusional. As if such markets were interchangeable.

[Edited 2012-11-23 11:31:35]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-11-23 11:28:51 and read 12387 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 47):
It was more recently than that according to my sources.

I don't know the delivery dates of the different variants but I do know this: US has been flying MAD-PHL with A333's since 2003. Another spanish carrier that I can't remember now was flying MAD-PUJ also as early as 2003. NW was operating TPAC routes as early as 2007. So the idea that a 2006-2007 A333 could not fly IB's routes to N.America doesn't hold much water. No, it was not as capable as the A340 but you don't need A340 performace to fly from MAD to the cities mentioned. The MAD hot and high is not as detrimental as some people make it seem. It's only 600m above sea level. IB's need for hot&high performance has more to do with the S.American cities that they operate from, rather than MAD itself.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: BommerJan
Posted 2012-11-23 11:48:37 and read 12325 times.

Iberia.... on my last IB flight (MAD-DUS) flight attendants put their feet on the galley counter and read the papers.....

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2012-11-23 11:50:22 and read 12270 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
They already converted 7 A340s to high density configuration for that destinations. 24J+265Y instead of 36J+218Y. Anyway, I have read that they are planning to end PTY, GUA, SJU and SSA too. Nothing about SJO thought...

I have also read that they are thinking about ending MVD, LAX, GIG and LAD. But nothing is sure as the sources are not trustful.

Good heavens, where will they fly to once all these cities are axed? It is like IB is withdrawing from Central and So. America completely! It doesn't strike me as a strategy for rebuilding an airline - it seems once a route is withdrawn, it takes a lot of resources - and time - to rebuild it.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-23 13:04:13 and read 11866 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 53):
So the idea that a 2006-2007 A333 could not fly IB's routes to N.America doesn't hold much water

That is not what I am saying. As I said, the A333 has been capable of flying certain routes for a while, which I implied to mean since before 2006-7. Whether it can fly the route or not is only part of the equation, what really counts is the performance. Do you go with the A333, burn less fuel but carry less payload, or go with the A343, burn more fuel but carry more payload. I have no reason to disbelieve that the economic balance was only recently tipped in the A333's favor - the fleet planners and bean counters at IB are no fools.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 53):
I don't know the delivery dates of the different variants but I do know this: US has been flying MAD-PHL with A333's since 2003.

As I mentioned above, it's not such a big deal when it's just one direction to one destination in your network.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 53):
NW was operating TPAC routes as early as 2007.

I would be very surprised if these were not restricted. I've sat on a NW A333 burning fuel just to bring us under MTOW for a DTW-AMS flight.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 53):
Another spanish carrier that I can't remember now was flying MAD-PUJ also as early as 2003.

Iberworld, now named Orbest. About the only cargo they carried were the pax's bags and it was still no picnic on the outbound.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 53):
The MAD hot and high is not as detrimental as some people make it seem. It's only 600m above sea level. IB's need for hot&high performance has more to do with the S.American cities that they operate from, rather than MAD itself.

Don't underestimate the effect MAD's elevation and temperatures have on performance, the airport doesn't have such long runways for the sake of it. If it really was insignificant, IB would have adopted a dual twin and quad fleet long ago.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-23 14:04:27 and read 11511 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 44):
If I had to choose between flying in Economy to SCL on a LAN's 787 or on an Iberia's 346 with the new interior, I would go for the later, no matter how modern the 787 were, and just for a simply reason: 3-3-3 cramped configuration on the 787 vs. 2-4-2 on the 346.

Oh please, we know IB will not be happy to see LAN's 787s at MAD. The fact of the matter is that pax will choose to fly on the airline that gives them the most economical fare. LAN will soon operate the most economical and efficient aircraft on the SCL-MAD-FRA route; thus reducing its operating costs on the route. IB will not be able to lower its operating costs on the route. Also, SCL pax are already used to flying to Europe on AF's B77W, which has a 3-4-3 configuration in Y!

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: AA767400
Posted 2012-11-23 15:48:25 and read 11328 times.

Quoting regupilot (Reply 48):
I'm not sure if this is true. I haven't flown the route but, even though it is the only direct flight, locals and visitors have waaayy tooo many options to choose from at lower prices by connecting through mainland USA. Remember Puertorricans need no visa to visit Spain, much less to connect through USA. Same for Spaniards. They don't even fly daily to SJU. While visiting Spain, I noticed few people knew about Puerto Rico. By comparison, the Dominican Republic was advertised as a paradise island everywhere and people did knew about so, I'm surprised about SDQ. Sometimes they even have 2 flights a day to the island. At the end, I guess competition is the issue... people could go direct with Air Europa or go through France or Germany without stepping on USA land, which would pose visa issues to Dominicans.

I agree on many things you mentioned. Especially Spaniards not knowing about Puerto Rico, and advertising the Dominican Republic. Not to mention there's a load of Dominican immigrants in Spain, and pretty much zip for Puerto Ricans. Whether which three destinations are most profitable for IB is anyone's guess. We shall see how it plays out, but hopefully IB will maintain their schedule to their three Spanish speaking - Caribbean destinations.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: laca773
Posted 2012-11-23 16:53:41 and read 11207 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 21):
For largely the same reason; in hot and high conditions the advantage big twins have over quads is compromised - this was especially the case when IB ordered their first A340s. Also the 767 would have been a little small. It's not such a problem if you have one or two airports in your network where a twin won't perform as well as a quad, but when it's your home airport you need to make decisions around that factor. This is also why SAA went for the A340, because JNB is considerably higher than MAD.


Dan

I was thinking the same thing, Dan, however, IB could've made changes long ago regarding their longhaul fleet and chose not to do so.
The bottom line is, reality is setting in for IB and nobody likes what they are hearing and will soon see. They are going to have to change and that's the bottom line,. If the IB staff doesn't want to do so, IAG will act accordingly.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-23 18:12:03 and read 11107 times.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 59):
I was thinking the same thing, Dan, however, IB could've made changes long ago regarding their longhaul fleet and chose not to do so.

Ultimately the aircraft are not the problem, and generally nor are Iberia's longhaul services. Long ago there was even less choice than now, quads were the only logical option and still are for much of their network. Although I do think they missed a trick by not ordering the A332 around the time they placed the first A346 order, that would have been a much better route opener from MAD and a better fit than the A343 for services out of BCN.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2012-11-23 19:55:58 and read 11036 times.

Attention: The press release in Spanish talks about San Juan, Puerto Rico (SJU), not San Jose, Costa Rica (SJO).




.

Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
I have read that they are planning to end PTY, GUA


Source, please.
The dedicated IB MAD-PTY 5x weekly and back was decoupled in the past as the triangular route called IB MAD-GUA-PTY-MAD. Furthermore, IB is now code-sharing with Copa Airlines in selected flights heading to Central America.
These facts demonstrates the progress of Iberia in Panama City lately.
GUA wasn't mentioned in the article.




.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 12):
I have a hard time believing they would end Panama City and San José as they're the richest cities in Central America with a decent premium demand.


I second that. IB MAD-SJO 7x weekly is the stellar Central American route.
Air Madrid and Air Comet from Marsans group flew the MAD-SJO sector in the past.
Speaking about the Central American landscape, only SJO is sustaining daily flights to Spain at this time.




.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 13):
actually, the "star" destination for Iberia in Central America (according to IB) has always been GUA (largest city in Central America by far).


Not true.
As a matter of fact, Guatemala City is the largest Central American city but it doesn't mean GUA is capable to feed the largest traffic to MAD.
During the last ten years, GUA hasn't been capable to sustain daily flights to Madrid and all their flights were coupled with other regional airport: IB MAD-GUA-SJO-MAD, IB MAD-GUA-PTY-MAD and the current IB MAD-GUA-SAL-MAD.




.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 20):
The real problem lies with SAL.....GUA does well but has runway length / altitude issues so they need a triangle route.


Correct.
IB did operate SAL in the past and it was resumed due to the demise of IB MAD-GUA-PTY-MAD.




.

Quoting danimarroquin (Reply 23):
Sounds to me for a great opportunity for AV to bring a A330 to SJO and cover the route


That makes sense in the hypothetical case of the withdrawal of IB SJO-MAD. I don't believe it.




.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 35):
Places, like Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras, Yucatan, Haiti, El salvador, Cuba, they can be serve from HAV with Cubana and Aerocaribbean if they make an effort to work out the schedules and using IB and CU metal.


The Central American stations are now bearing the IB code on flights operated by Copa Airlines. CU is not forming part of this equation.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: OB1504
Posted 2012-11-23 22:59:25 and read 10893 times.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 26):
Maybe they need to do what they did back in the 1990s when IB had the hub at MIA. I believe IB used to base 2-3 MD-87s at MIA and bring in an extra A340 or 747 from MAD and send the MD-87s to South America from MIA. Maybe they need to bring in an extra A340 earlier in the day and base 3-4 A319s at MIA to feed to the Carribean routes. Air France is currently doing it to Port Au Prince with an A320 out of MIA

As mentioned earlier, this would not be feasible due to the United States requiring visas even for passengers who are transiting between international flights. This is what killed the hub the first time around.

Air France's MIA-PAP-PTP service is not timed to connect with the CDG-MIA flight and is targeted at the local market instead. The A320 is instead based in the Caribbean and only overnights at MIA.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 16):
I know it's too late now, but why didn't IB go with 767/777s instead? It would seem they would have been a good fit for the international flying they do,.

I recall reading that Iberia felt that the 777, being a twin, would've taken too much of a performance hit operating from hot and high airfields such as MAD and MEX. Of course, this was before the advent of the -200LR and -300ER. I think there was also some kind of falling out between Boeing and Iberia, when it became obvious that Iberia wasn't actually planning on buying any Boeing products and was just using them for leverage to get a better deal from Airbus.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-11-24 03:55:32 and read 10677 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 4):
Anyway, I have read that they are planning to end PTY,

KLM would be very pleased if they would do this (though I seriously that it). Only problem for KLM will be how to increase capacity to PTY as they'll be flying the 77W (their largest plane) to PTY 2 days a week in W12 and they don't have many 77W orders left.

Quoting LH506 (Reply 33):
It is a matter of time until EK, TK or QR will start MEX, CCS, BOG, LIM, SCL, PTY...

I seriously doubt you'll see these airlines in PTY, LIM or BOG anytime soon (or at all). If PTY is such a high yielding long haul market i reckon you would see more airlines flying to it (yes I know KL and IB increased capacity). This also applies to LIM and BOG. SCL is another story as it can be a tag from GIG or GRU. MEX and CCS are possible, but I think you'll have to wait a long to time see these airlines at MEX or CCS (it's a very long flight and there is not so much demand from Asia to/from CCS and MEX already is already connected to Asia (NRT/PVG).

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-24 04:24:36 and read 10632 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 63):
SCL is another story as it can be a tag from GIG or GRU.

SCL could be a tag from EZE as well when EK and QR decide to operate non-stop to EZE. Also, Chile just signed a full Open Skies treaty with Qatar.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: avion660
Posted 2012-11-24 06:02:53 and read 10456 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 57):
Oh please, we know IB will not be happy to see LAN's 787s at MAD. The fact of the matter is that pax will choose to fly on the airline that gives them the most economical fare. LAN will soon operate the most economical and efficient aircraft on the SCL-MAD-FRA route; thus reducing its operating costs on the route. IB will not be able to lower its operating costs on the route.

True enough..LAN will likely have lower costs but will they reduce fares accordingly? Whenever I check there's never much difference between IB and LAN (literally only 30 euros), and often they are selling seats on each others metal which confuses things even more. Sometimes LAN isn't LAN.. it's TAM or IB! And I still can't find the 787 on LAN's schedules via MAD out to March .. did I miss the start date announcement?

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-24 06:18:19 and read 10422 times.

Quoting avion660 (Reply 66):

LAN hasn't loaded the 787 flights on the SCL-MAD-FRA route as yet. However, the switch over to the 787 will occur sometime in March. As a reference, LA704/LA705 are LAN operated flights and LA5994/LA5995 are TAM operated flights via the GRU hub.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-11-24 06:20:18 and read 10429 times.

Quoting miaskies (Reply 49):
While SJU has been served for many years due to the cultural ties (as in Cuba), the market now a days has changed, Spain's economy is not doing very well as is that of Puerto Rico.

There are very few cultural, economical and tourism ties between Puerto Rico and Spain/Europe, despite the fact that it is a former Spanish colony and it is a (somehow) Spanish-speaking country. Nothing to do with the economy. It is not at all comparable with Cuba, which is a way more popular destination in Europe, and that has certainly more historical ties with Spain (many Cubans are still 2nd or 3rd generation from Spain). BA is also cancelling (the weekly) SJU-AUA-LGW, and hence the only other remaining service will be Condor from FRA, which is a holiday flight. That can give you an idea of how (not) popular PR is in Europe, since the IB flight is the only "regular" flight. Compare it to HAV, SDQ or PUJ that see multiple service from almost any major capital in Europe.

I guess there are a few reasons for that. Puerto Ricans looking for jobs outside their island will go to the US (obviously, they have an US passport, an advantage that does not have any other Latin American country, so what's the point to migrate to Europe for low-skilled jobs), and they are not the kind of people that will travel on holiday to Spain or Europe (despite they don't need a visa). Wealthy PR are probably more geared as well to live, shop or work in the likes of Miami or New York, which is not necessarily the same for wealthy Brazilians, Argentinian or Peruvians (of course there are tons of those nationals in the US, but there are sheer numbers of them vacationing or with second homes in London, Paris or Madrid... which is not the case for PRicans).

PR is a popular holiday destination in the US because it is close (to the East Coast) and probably the most exotic thing you can get without issuing a passport. For Europeans... if they want an all-included Caribbean holiday, there are tons of more scenic and cheaper resorts in Punta Cana or Varadero. If they want a more cultural experience (on top of the beach)... Cuba. And if they want American glitz and fun... Florida.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-11-24 06:29:05 and read 10407 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 56):
I have no reason to disbelieve that the economic balance was only recently tipped in the A333's favor - the fleet planners and bean counters at IB are no fools.

I'm not so sure of that. IB has been losing money for 5 years. The current Spanish economic situation is just the latest excuse for the losses. Their current financial situation certainly doesn't help your statement that "fleet planners and bean counters at IB are no fools".

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 56):
Don't underestimate the effect MAD's elevation and temperatures have on performance, the airport doesn't have such long runways for the sake of it. If it really was insignificant, IB would have adopted a dual twin and quad fleet long ago.

Again, I don't know all the factors that play into their fleet planning but with all the evidence it's hard to believe that the A333 performance was a significant factor.
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 56):
I would be very surprised if these were not restricted. I've sat on a NW A333 burning fuel just to bring us under MTOW for a DTW-AMS flight.

At a time when fuel is the single biggest cost item for airlines, that is a pretty crazy thing to say, but then again I've heard all kinds of nonsense as excuses for tarmac delays  

[Edited 2012-11-24 06:33:24]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-11-24 07:36:56 and read 10309 times.

According to the Spanish newspaper "La Razon" (not the most reliable newspaper though http://www.larazon.es/noticia/9022-i...ilotos-y-cierra-otras-seis-rutas), they also plan to cut ATH, CAI, IST and MVD, but they don't mention SJU.

Not surprising given the economic conditions in Spain, and how those three medium-haul destinations were probably much about carrying Spanish tourists there. Also, they have to compete with the local airlines (Aegean, Turkish and Egyptair) that certainly offer a better product and service.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: luckyone
Posted 2012-11-24 07:43:43 and read 10262 times.

Quoting miaskies (Reply 49):
While SJU has been served for many years due to the cultural ties (as in Cuba), the market now a days has changed, Spain's economy is not doing very well as is that of Puerto Rico.

I don't know how long they had served it in the past, but Iberia's recent stay at SJU only began in 2010. They had been absent for several years before that at the very least.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 46):
SJU has no other direct flights to Europe, which IB has no competition on.

Until March 2013 SJU does indeed have direct, not nonstop, but direct service to LGW on BA. Also owned by IAG. So what is most likely happening is IAG cutting it's low-yield destinations and sending those passengers to it's Transatlantic Joint Venture partner, American Airlines.

[Edited 2012-11-24 07:47:24]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-11-24 08:30:42 and read 10160 times.

Quoting avion660 (Reply 66):

True enough..LAN will likely have lower costs but will they reduce fares accordingly?

Why would LAN? Lower operating cost at existing prices will mean higher margins and thus higher profits for the same passenger. It's not that LAN is a non-profit organisation which pass the benefits of lower costs to its clients

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: MFC
Posted 2012-11-24 09:10:45 and read 10068 times.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 71):
I don't know how long they had served it in the past, but Iberia's recent stay at SJU only began in 2010. They had been absent for several years before that at the very least.

That's not true. Iberia has been flying to SJU before 2010. I invite you to do a search on the photo database. It has been served by the 343, 346 and 747-400 (one of the last long haul destinations to get an Iberia 747) in the last 10 years.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-24 09:22:28 and read 10038 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 69):
I'm not so sure of that. IB has been losing money for 5 years. The current Spanish economic situation is just the latest excuse for the losses. Their current financial situation certainly doesn't help your statement that "fleet planners and bean counters at IB are no fools".

Knowing what to do and always being able to do it are, unfortunately, two different things when you factor in the militant unions. It has been Iberia's inability to react to the rapidly changing domestic and short-haul markets at MAD which has caused them losses - long haul is predominantly profitable and has been throughout. The reaction to Iberia Express sums up what Iberia are dealing with when trying to streamline the company.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 69):
At a time when fuel is the single biggest cost item for airlines, that is a pretty crazy thing to say, but then again I've heard all kinds of nonsense as excuses for tarmac delays

Not nonsense at all, but I agree that having to do it is rather crazy and very wasteful. The plane held for around five minutes, brakes on, with the engines running at reasonably high power - enough to make the fuselage 'wobble' from side to side. Reason given was burning excess fuel to come in under take off weight, which there is no reason to doubt. Aircraft was a 2004 build -300X and had a full hold of cargo. Cargo being very relevant to this topic in fact, which comes back to what I have been saying about the A343 until recently being able to lift more compared to the A333 - what goes in the hold is as valuable as what sit upstairs.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 69):
Again, I don't know all the factors that play into their fleet planning but with all the evidence it's hard to believe that the A333 performance was a significant factor.
All the evidence? Only Iberia have all the evidence, but I have to disagree with your conclusion based on what I am aware of.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-24 09:51:01 and read 9991 times.

IB would need a fleet of 789s, but that backlog i scary!

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: luckyone
Posted 2012-11-24 09:57:26 and read 9955 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 73):
That's not true. Iberia has been flying to SJU before 2010. I invite you to do a search on the photo database. It has been served by the 343, 346 and 747-400 (one of the last long haul destinations to get an Iberia 747) in the last 10 years.

My apologies. It seems I had my facts crossed. Thanks!

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: avion660
Posted 2012-11-24 12:34:59 and read 9820 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 72):
Why would LAN? Lower operating cost at existing prices will mean higher margins and thus higher profits for the same passenger. It's not that LAN is a non-profit organisation which pass the benefits of lower costs to its clients

Sadly, I agree with you. If IB is your main competition, and you can get away with a higher margin and keep capturing the pax I wouldn't either.

[Edited 2012-11-24 12:37:27]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2012-11-24 13:51:29 and read 9853 times.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 61):
During the last ten years, GUA hasn't been capable to sustain daily flights to Madrid and all their flights were coupled with other regional airport: IB MAD-GUA-SJO-MAD, IB MAD-GUA-PTY-MAD and the current IB MAD-GUA-SAL-MAD.

GUA is entirely capable of sustaining flights to MAD on its own. IB would dearly love to do GUA n/s both ways, but it is the airport altitude and runway length that are the issues, so they went in search of a partner destination. If GUA was not performing, I think you would have seen IB drop it all together when they decoupled PTY.

Remember KL served GUA for many years. There are alot of people of European decent living the GUA (much like SJO).

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2012-11-24 15:30:30 and read 9708 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 78):
GUA is entirely capable of sustaining flights to MAD


I don't dispute if GUA is capable to sustain flights heading to Madrid on its own.
In my view and speaking solely about the Central American scenario, GUA is ranked third in terms of the market-share heading to MAD on IB and behind of SJO and PTY, respectively.
None of the mentioned Central American stations has been questioned in the press releases attached in this thread.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-11-24 18:33:52 and read 9556 times.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 31):
Third, AM cannot operate flights from SJO o MAD, but the implication is that they pax can connect!

Correct, but that would imply a lot of backtracking. I know that for someone without a U.S. visa, that might be one of the only ways to do it, but I think it would be more efficient to fly from SJO to, say, GUA or PTY on TA or CM and then fly nonstop to MAD from there. MEX is as I said kind of out of the way.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 35):
t is a matter of time until EK, TK or QR will start MEX, CCS, BOG, LIM, SCL, PTY...

In my opinion this will hurt much more to AF, BA and LH than IB because middle east carriers will steal pax flying to Asia and IB don´t go there that much, only TLV, CAI and DME could be affected a bit.

I agree. The implications of the launching of LatAm service by Middle Eastern airlines are mostly neutral for IB... they are negative for the airlines that currently serve as West-to-East connectors.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 62):
I recall reading that Iberia felt that the 777, being a twin, would've taken too much of a performance hit operating from hot and high airfields such as MAD and MEX. Of course, this was before the advent of the -200LR and -300ER. I think there was also some kind of falling out between Boeing and Iberia, when it became obvious that Iberia wasn't actually planning on buying any Boeing products and was just using them for leverage to get a better deal from Airbus.

Airbus pitched the A346 and Boeing the 77W to IB if I am not mistaken. IB was very smart to have the manufacturers fight for the order and Airbus won on price. I am not so sure if this was a perfectly clean competition where the lowest bidder would win, or whether Boeing was used as leverage as you say... could have well been the case. The Wall Street Journal had back then a good article on that purchase; I remember reading it. Now, with respect to the 77E, AM flies those to MAD all-year long and, to the best of my knowledge, without penalties (GE-powered).

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-24 18:50:03 and read 9568 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 74):
It has been Iberia's inability to react to the rapidly changing domestic and short-haul markets at MAD which has caused them losses - long haul is predominantly profitable and has been throughout.

That's not what Iberia's CEO is saying. He says ALL their markets are now unprofitable.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...2ee02c546250286789452318133210.451

Excerpt:

Iberia "is unprofitable in all its markets. We have to take tough decisions now to save the company and return it to profitability," said Sanchez-Lozano.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: regupilot
Posted 2012-11-24 20:57:09 and read 9483 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 68):

Right, Right, Right & Right. Couldn't have said it better.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 71):
I don't know how long they had served it in the past, but Iberia's recent stay at SJU only began in 2010. They had been absent for several years before that at the very least.

Thing is, Iberia comes and goes. I don't recall being a yearlong without them but, it has gone from daily.. way back in the days to, some days a week, weekly, sometimes gone for months and then back again... usually increasing frequency on Winter. I guess the system shows the last "full come back" date... but indeed, Iberia has been around SJU forever..

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Carlos Aleman - SJU Aviation Photography
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Photo © Fernando Perez


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Pedro Pacheco (SJU Aviation Photography)
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Carlos Aleman - SJU Aviation Photography

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: AA767400
Posted 2012-11-25 00:01:52 and read 9382 times.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 71):
I don't know how long they had served it in the past, but Iberia's recent stay at SJU only began in 2010. They had been absent for several years before that at the very least.

As been mentioned before - IB's stay did not begin the other day. They've been serving the market continuously from inception. It was however routed via SDQ on certain days in the past. Further back, it was even routed via the Canary Islands.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 71):
Until March 2013 SJU does indeed have direct, not nonstop, but direct service to LGW on BA. Also owned by IAG. So what is most likely happening is IAG cutting it's low-yield destinations and sending those passengers to it's Transatlantic Joint Venture partner, American Airlines.

BA has served SJU in the past nonstop. They left the market a couple of years ago, and then returned with service via ANU - which is being discounted. Once a week, via ANU didn't really count in my book. Without IB, SJU will only have DE's Saturday only SJU-FRA.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 68):
BA is also cancelling (the weekly) SJU-AUA-LGW, and hence the only other remaining service will be Condor from FRA, which is a holiday flight.

Yes - but it's SJU-ANU-LGW.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 68):
That can give you an idea of how (not) popular PR is in Europe, since the IB flight is the only "regular" flight. Compare it to HAV, SDQ or PUJ that see multiple service from almost any major capital in Europe.

That's because Puerto Rico lacks the all-inclusive resorts that the other islands have. Cheap all-inclusive resorts abound in POP,PUJ,HAV,VRA, and many others. A lower peso makes for an economical holiday.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 68):
Wealthy PR are probably more geared as well to live, shop or work in the likes of Miami or New York, which is not necessarily the same for wealthy Brazilians, Argentinian or Peruvians (of course there are tons of those nationals in the US, but there are sheer numbers of them vacationing or with second homes in London, Paris or Madrid... which is not the case for PRicans).

I beg to differ on that. South Americans have a sheer number of holiday homes in Miami. Very few have homes in Europe. Heck, they don't call certain parts little Buenos Aires for nothing.

Back on topic - Hopefully IB will maintain service to SJU. But the good old days of KL, AF, BA, and LH on the route are long gone.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-25 05:07:02 and read 9222 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 81):
That's not what Iberia's CEO is saying. He says ALL their markets are now unprofitable.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...2ee02c546250286789452318133210.451

Excerpt:

Iberia "is unprofitable in all its markets. We have to take tough decisions now to save the company and return it to profitability," said Sanchez-Lozano.

That's not quite the full picture according to IAG. Long-haul is still predominantly profitable, but there are routes making heavy losses which has dragged it into an overall loss. It is these loss making routes which will go and the fleet will shrink accordingly, giving an idea of how many routes we will see axed, as described by IAG's release which that article is based on:

"In the short term the transformation will focus on stemming the losses and creating a profitable route network. This will include suspending loss making routes and frequencies and ensuring there is effective feed for profitable long haul flights"


Dan  

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-11-25 13:28:41 and read 8943 times.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 83):
That's because Puerto Rico lacks the all-inclusive resorts that the other islands have. Cheap all-inclusive resorts abound in POP,PUJ,HAV,VRA, and many others. A lower peso makes for an economical holiday.

Umm I am afraid your argument is untenable. Havana itself is a very popular destination for Europeans... they are looking for good weather, history and visiting a friendly (if we compare it the North Koreas, etc.) communist country in the XXI century...hardly an all-resort included city. Varadero is certainly a resort destination but it has its own airport with multiple long-haul destinations to Europe (which does not mean many tourists will combine same history in Havana and some beach in Varadero flying via HAV).

Same for Miami or South Florida... not much if any of an all-included resort culture there, and it is still very popular because Europeans are looking for sun but also shopping, glitz or nightlife.

The ""problem"" with PR in Europe if that it is stuck in the middle. It is a long haul flight, you need a passport (same as any other island or the US in the area) and it does not have the wow factor and amenities of Miami, the history and culture of Havana or the beaches and resorts (I agree with you on that) of Punta Cana or Varadero. Also, I think it does not help that PR is regarded as a relatively dangerous and expensive place, at least compared to the likes of South Florida or Cuba.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 83):
I beg to differ on that. South Americans have a sheer number of holiday homes in Miami. Very few have homes in Europe. Heck, they don't call certain parts little Buenos Aires for nothing.

I haven't said that Florida is not a popular destination for Latin Americans (it is obvious that it is... just stroll down Aventura Mall and there will be more Argentinean or Brazilian accents than Cuban's).

My comment was regarding the supposedly interest in Puerto Ricans to travel to Europe. Wealthy PRicans will likely tend to travel to the US and own houses there... as your average American US-passport holder.

This is not necessarily the case for other Latin Americans... who are likely to own houses, study, travel or going shopping in Florida or NYC... but also in major European capitals. On the other hand, there are literally millions of Latin Americans (from Mexico, Venezuela, Brazil or Argentina) who are only 2nd or 3rd generation (primarily from Spain, Portugal, Italy and Germany; and they are very likely to hold an European passport that will allow them to work/study/travel freely through the European Union), many of them in healthy economic shape, who will travel very frequently to Europe. Just to give some numbers, there are almost 700,000 Italian-passport and 400,000 Spanish-passport holders living in Argentina alone today.

Believe it or not, it is not every wealthy Latin American's dream to own a condo in Key Biscayne and take their children to college in Florida... many of them will likely do the same in London, Madrid or Paris.

And obviously I am just avoiding the business traffic Puerto Rico - Europe, which must be of little interest looking at the long-haul services to the island. Even in such a place as Cuba there are quite a few European hotel companies running operations there (your all-included resorts in Varadero, for instance)... so I would not be surprised if there is more business traffic between Europe and a communist country like Cuba (ironically the restrictions on US companies operating there are beneficial for European corporations) than between Europe and a free-market island such as Puerto Rico.











[Edited 2012-11-25 14:05:11]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2012-11-25 15:15:42 and read 8836 times.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 26):
Maybe they need to do what they did back in the 1990s when IB had the hub at MIA. I believe IB used to base 2-3 MD-87s at MIA and bring in an extra A340 or 747 from MAD and send the MD-87s to South America from MIA. Maybe they need to bring in an extra A340 earlier in the day and base 3-4 A319s at MIA to feed to the Carribean routes. Air France is currently doing it to Port Au Prince with an A320 out of MIA

IB hub in MIA won't work as long as the U.S. requires hub passengers U.S. visas.
Now that IB is code-sharing w/CM, IB could well fly its biggest A340 daily to PTY (+ extra flights 2-3 per week) and let CM hub their passengers there.
And surely if IB leaves Central America, the new AV may take care of any GUA/SAL/SJO-MAD demand.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: AA767400
Posted 2012-11-26 17:16:23 and read 8314 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 84):
Umm I am afraid your argument is untenable. Havana itself is a very popular destination for Europeans...

My point is justifiable. Cuba offers a more economical holiday destination for Europeans than PR does. Of course Cuba has a rich culture, and history. No one is arguing that. Simple put, Cuba, and the Dominican Republic are heavily promoted in Europe for said reason. Cheaper doesn't necessarily mean inferior. Politics play a major role in the circumstances.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 84):
This is not necessarily the case for other Latin Americans... who are likely to own houses, study, travel or going shopping in Florida or NYC... but also in major European capitals. On the other hand, there are literally millions of Latin Americans (from Mexico, Venezuela, Brazil or Argentina) who are only 2nd or 3rd generation (primarily from Spain, Portugal, Italy and Germany; and they are very likely to hold an European passport that will allow them to work/study/travel freely through the European Union), many of them in healthy economic shape, who will travel very frequently to Europe. Just to give some numbers, there are almost 700,000 Italian-passport and 400,000 Spanish-passport holders living in Argentina alone today.

Most of these 2nd or 3rd generation Latin Americans don't own property in Europe. They go there to better themselves economically. (Although that's changing these days with the EU's economy) Brazil, Argentina, and Venezuela can support Euro flights. SJU/HAV/SDQ depend pretty much on tourism to support theirs.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 84):
Believe it or not, it is not every wealthy Latin American's dream to own a condo in Key Biscayne and take their children to college in Florida... many of them will likely do the same in London, Madrid or Paris.

Your'e right - I don't believe it. They LOVE Miami. Europe just doesn't hold a candle to Miami in that aspect. We'll agree to disagree.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 84):
And obviously I am just avoiding the business traffic Puerto Rico - Europe, which must be of little interest looking at the long-haul services to the island.

Which I will agree is zero. The business traffic is US-PR related. Textiles being number one.

I agree with most of your points. I know why HAV and SDQ support their MAD flights. In my opinion, so can SJU.  

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: r2rho
Posted 2012-11-27 04:31:49 and read 8177 times.

We might as well start an official "IB Route Cutting Thread", as there is a new annoucement on a near weekly basis...

IB/I2 Suspends AMS, ARN, TXL (by SCQ83 Oct 29 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Iberia To Cut 4,500 Jobs Under IAG Restructuring (by BreninTW Nov 8 2012 in Civil Aviation)

IB Eliminates MAD-MVD, Effective April 2013 (by Gonzalo Nov 26 2012 in Civil Aviation)

What will be announced next?   

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: r2rho
Posted 2012-11-27 04:40:06 and read 8163 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 45):
Well at the November 9th meeting when the IB transformation plan was revealed one of the two bullet point challenges in the longhaul network listed in their presentation was.

"A340 fleet cost"

Additionally later they again made mention the A340 fleet leaves IB with "gap in cost and product"

So the A340s are certainly part of the problem.

They may be part of the problem in the case of North/Central America (not deep South America routes for which IB uses the full payload-range capabilities of the A340). But they are not the problem. IB's core cost base is. A333's will not return IB to profitability. But once/if IB reduces its cost inefficiencies, they will help to increase profitability.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 38):
Lets hope that's not too little too late. Considering they don't have any A350's or 787's on order yet, that means they will be operating A330/A340's when most of the competition will be flying A350's/787's and the price of fuel shows no signs of going down.

It already is too little too late. One can only hope that the A333's are an interim solution and that IB will get 789's or A359's via IAG some day.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 80):
long haul is predominantly profitable and has been throughout.

That's not what Iberia's CEO is saying. He says ALL their markets are now unprofitable.

Given that IB is in an all-out internal labor war, we have to be critical of what each side says, and that includes statements from management. There are likely a handful of long-haul routes that are not profitable, but not most. This drags down overall long-haul profitability. And short-haul is bleeding so much money, with long-haul is no longer profitable enough to compensate, giving a large overall loss. That is at least my interpretation of the situation.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 55):

Good heavens, where will they fly to once all these cities are axed? It is like IB is withdrawing from Central and So. America completely! It doesn't strike me as a strategy for rebuilding an airline - it seems once a route is withdrawn, it takes a lot of resources - and time - to rebuild it.

I share your concern. Pulling out of LatAm - IB's core bread and butter market - is a strategic mistake. Their pax will eventually be handed over to LAN-TAM and Avianca-TACA on a one to one ratio. By the time IB attempts a return, it may be too late to retake a market that they've given up.
I would have understood giving up their North America routes to AA-BA, but LatAm?
Without LatAm, IB is nothing. Just another JK. Will the remaining long-haul destinations be enough for the airline to remain a viable entity in the long term? I certainly see a risk.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-11-27 04:54:22 and read 8167 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 88):
I share your concern. Pulling out of LatAm - IB's core bread and butter market - is a strategic mistake. Their pax will eventually be handed over to LAN-TAM and Avianca-TACA on a one to one ratio. By the time IB attempts a return, it may be too late to retake a market that they've given up.
I would have understood giving up their North America routes to AA-BA, but LatAm?
Without LatAm, IB is nothing. Just another JK. Will the remaining long-haul destinations be enough for the airline to remain a viable entity in the long term? I certainly see a risk.

Iberia does not have a responsability to fly to every country in Latin America, it has a responsability to fly profitably. IF IB only makes money in GRU, EZE, SCL, Lima in the south & Lima, CCS, MEX and BOG in the north, then that is all the South America they need to fly to. Havana generates next to zero passengers from Cuba, most has to be originanting from the European end.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2012-11-27 05:19:47 and read 8146 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 88):
I share your concern. Pulling out of LatAm - IB's core bread and butter market - is a strategic mistake. Their pax will eventually be handed over to LAN-TAM and Avianca-TACA on a one to one ratio. By the time IB attempts a return, it may be too late to retake a market that they've given up.
I would have understood giving up their North America routes to AA-BA, but LatAm?

Remember when UA gave up their MIA hub to LatAmerica. THey are still kicking themselves over that one.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-11-27 07:35:18 and read 8023 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 80):
That's not what Iberia's CEO is saying. He says ALL their markets are now unprofitable.

He also said this which I find more telling:
Sanchez-Lozano said "the Spanish and European economic crisis has impacted on Iberia, but its problems are systemic and pre-date the country's current difficulties."

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 86):
My point is justifiable. Cuba offers a more economical holiday destination for Europeans than PR does.

Heck, PR is not even affordable for Americans.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 88):
They may be part of the problem in the case of North/Central America (not deep South America routes for which IB uses the full payload-range capabilities of the A340). But they are not the problem. IB's core cost base is. A333's will not return IB to profitability. But once/if IB reduces its cost inefficiencies, they will help to increase profitability.

Wouldn't operating more efficient aircraft at a time when fuel costs are the single biggest expense, be an important step to lower the cost base? I would think so. For half of their long haul network, the A340 has been the least efficient aircraft available for the last 5-6 years, even longer if you include the A332.
I'm not saying this is the and all be all solution but it has to be an important factor and one that can't be ignored. The airline can lower their labor costs all it wants but if it's fleet is less efficient than the competition, they will continue to lose as fuel costs go up and up.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-27 09:15:50 and read 7965 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 90):
Remember when UA gave up their MIA hub to LatAmerica. THey are still kicking themselves over that one.

They're kicking themselves because it has become a goldmine for AA. That doesn't mean that it was a mistake to drop the hub. Ultimately, it was fight or flight for UA and there was absolutely zero bandwidth to keep the hub going. They failed to invest properly in the hub long before they ultimately dismantled it, and by that point it was too late to do anything about it.

I don't think IB will suffer a similar fate if it has to withdraw from a few lower-performing Latin American markets as it restructures. While I think that some of the aforementioned ones on the chopping block (namely PTY, GUA, and GYE) are hurtful, I don't think that IB's trunk network will suffer greatly if some of the lower-yielding Caribbean ones like SJU, SDQ and HAV are suspended temporarily.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-11-27 13:29:06 and read 7817 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 91):
For half of their long haul network, the A340 has been the least efficient aircraft available for the last 5-6 years

I know you keep saying this, but that view is only your opinion and not one which can be corroborated by my understanding of the issue or those I know who are familiar with the A330's performance. Yes they could have flown the A333 for the past few years, but they would have been leaving cargo behind at MAD whilst the A343 could fly with a full load of passengers and cargo. The increased fuel burn was more than offset by the increased revenue - that is what really counts, or yes they would have ordered the A333 before.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2012-11-27 18:55:46 and read 7646 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 88):
in the case of North/Central America (not deep South America routes for which IB uses the full payload-range capabilities of the A340).


I think the 340 is a suitable plane for Central America on IB.
Based on the Great Circle Mapper, the path on IB SJO-MAD is larger than IB MAD-CCS, IB MAD-BOG, IB MAD-GIG and IB MAD-GRU, among others.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: MFC
Posted 2012-12-07 09:30:05 and read 7028 times.

It's official now:

http://grupo.iberia.es/portal/site/g...f8d257b310VgnVCM1000005ffe15acRCRD

They are canceling touristic routes: ATH, IST, CAI, SDQ, HAV, SJU and MVD. But, from the article:

"Next year, and within the Transformation Plan, Iberia will increase its capacity to long haul destination like Brazil, Mexico, Miami, Central America, Chile or Ecuador. It will also increase seat supply to London, Casablanca, Algiers, Dakar, Nouakchott or Malabo."

So, not everything's bad.

Aegean flies to ATH, Turkish to IST, Egypt Air to CAI (although not many people would like to fly there nowadays) and Air Europa to SDQ and HAV. So we have alternatives to that destinations from MAD. They also haven't say anything about LAX or BOS, so I suppose they will keep them.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: JU068
Posted 2012-12-07 11:20:53 and read 6775 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 95):
They are canceling touristic routes: ATH

Iberia flies daily in summer while Aegean operates 4 weekly flights. I am sure they will increase to at least a daily flight unless Iberia Express launches it in the meantime.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: MFC
Posted 2012-12-07 11:44:33 and read 6724 times.

During Summer Iberia operated two flights some days, not sure if it was double daily. I don't know if Iberia Express will be able to operate to ATH, because of legal issues their fleet is limited to 14 airplanes currently, so no possible expansion by the moment, maybe in next months things change. Iberia Express flew to Mykonos last Summer, it would strange to have an Iberia Group flight to Mykonos and not to Athens next Summer.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: JU068
Posted 2012-12-07 11:55:40 and read 6711 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 98):

I am not sure about Madrid but I think Iberia operated double daily flights from Barcelona. Shame Vueling can't operate this route, it would be a perfect market for them.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: laca773
Posted 2012-12-08 09:04:16 and read 6325 times.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 94):
think the 340 is a suitable plane for Central America on IB. Based on the Great Circle Mapper, the path on IB SJO-MAD is larger than IB MAD-CCS, IB MAD-BOG, IB MAD-GIG and IB MAD-GRU, among others.

Perhaps, but IB has a big problem of not making any money. The A340 is a gas guzzler and far from being efficient in this day and age. It seems they waited too long to order the A330s needed to fly these routes much more efficiently.

Might we ever see IAG-BA, place a few 77Es into the IB fleet?

The 787 would be a good a/c for IB as well.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-08 10:26:55 and read 6200 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 95):
Iberia will increase its capacity to long haul destination like Brazil, Mexico, Miami, Central America, Chile or Ecuador

Interesting. I wonder if MAD-MEX will be double-daily or whether they are planning another destination such as MTY or GDL.

I also wonder what IB will replace its A343s and A346s with. Depending on the time frame IB wants to follow, there are many, many options ranging from the new enhanced A332 and -3s, to the 787 family, to the A350 family, to the 777X.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: anstar
Posted 2012-12-08 10:33:26 and read 6191 times.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 99):
Perhaps, but IB has a big problem of not making any money. The A340 is a gas guzzler and far from being efficient in this day and age.

I wonder if the 343's are running on better economics than the 346's?

VS seem to be getting rid of 346's ahead of 343's.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LHRFlyer
Posted 2012-12-08 11:34:59 and read 6188 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 95):
"Next year, and within the Transformation Plan, Iberia will increase its capacity to long haul destination like Brazil, Mexico, Miami, Central America, Chile or Ecuador. It will also increase seat supply to London, Casablanca, Algiers, Dakar, Nouakchott or Malabo."

So, not everything's bad.

It seems to have a lot of similarity with BA's "Future Size and Shape" initiative from ten years ago with inefficient long-haul routes being dropped and Iberia competing on frequency on key business routes.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: migair54
Posted 2012-12-08 12:00:37 and read 6144 times.

Big problem for the touristic long haul destinations are the A340´s, but i was expecting to see the A333 to HAV for example like UX does or Iberworld used to do.

However I think it´s a smart move to cut routes that are losing money and try to go back to the good way, i´m sure HAV will come back, it´s not only touristic destination, there´re also some important investmnets in Cuba but now with the Spanish crisis that investment and business travelers are much less.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 100):
Interesting. I wonder if MAD-MEX will be double-daily or whether they are planning another destination such as MTY or GDL.

I guess they will go double daily, i don´t see MTY or GDL coming soon, however now the problem with MEX is the lack of partners after the closing of Mexicana.

Quoting MFC (Reply 95):
They also haven't say anything about LAX or BOS, so I suppose they will keep them.

I think they are doing ok nowadays and they have what IB is looking for and that´s the Yields, but again BOS is a perfect route for an A330. We saw some charters to LAS and SFO last summer i really hope one day IB can fly to SFO but i´m not very sure about it.

Quoting MFC (Reply 95):
"Next year, and within the Transformation Plan, Iberia will increase its capacity to long haul destination like Brazil, Mexico, Miami, Central America, Chile or Ecuador. It will also increase seat supply to London, Casablanca, Algiers, Dakar, Nouakchott or Malabo."

I have always said that Iberia should focus much more in West Africa, where offer is not that big and yields are usually good. Connecting pax from Europe and North America to Africa could be a nice way to raise good money, specially given that they can serve all west Africa with A320´s like they do, offering a nice business class and acceptable economy, and that´s a good advantage over LH-SN and AF-KLM because they need to use wide-body aircraft.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 89):
Havana generates next to zero passengers from Cuba, most has to be originanting from the European end.

I lived in Cuba 2 years and i can tell you that they fly mainly with AF in that awfully cramped B77W, because many of them connect to places where IB doesn´t fly, like China, the ones going from HAV to MAD are mainly VFR and tourist like in VS.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-12-08 12:04:12 and read 6125 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 95):

"Next year, and within the Transformation Plan, Iberia will increase its capacity to long haul destination like Brazil, Mexico, Miami, Central America, Chile or Ecuador. It will also increase seat supply to London, Casablanca, Algiers, Dakar, Nouakchott or Malabo."

Didn't they intended to reduce the number of long haul aircraft by 5? Thus how to increase capacity when you reduce the number of aircraft. Moreover, it looks like every current long haul destination (with the exception of EZE and the US excluding MIA) can have more capacity... Seems more like a PR statement than a real plan (or is the word "or" incorrect).

Edit just read the Englsh translatio and it talks about "Next year, and within the Transformation Plan, Iberia will increase its capacity to long haul destination like Brazil, Mexico, Miami, Central America, Chile and Ecuador.". What is correct?

[Edited 2012-12-08 12:18:40]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-12-08 12:28:59 and read 6103 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 103):
that´s a good advantage over LH-SN and AF-KLM because they need to use wide-body aircraft.

Which is incorrect as proven by AF who flew A319s to SSG and NKC (dedicated service). LH/LX/SN and AF/KL fly widebodies becasue they can fill it and they want a piece of the cargo market.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: AR385
Posted 2012-12-08 12:54:23 and read 6059 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 100):
Interesting. I wonder if MAD-MEX will be double-daily or whether they are planning another destination such as MTY

A MAD-MTY-MAD coneection is long overdue. It´s a good mix of tourist and business traffic. I´m not sure if a tag on to GDL might work or GDL could stand on its own.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 103):
I guess they will go double daily, i don´t see MTY or GDL coming soon, however now the problem with MEX is the lack of partners after the closing of Mexicana.

It was a problem a the beginning. Now they can codeshare with either Interjet or Volaris. Both would benefit.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-08 17:02:59 and read 5897 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 106):
Now they can codeshare with either Interjet or Volaris. Both would benefit.

I know Volaris interlines or will do so with Southwest Airlines, but traditionally LCCs do not interline and much less codeshare... not among themselves and much less with "legacy" carriers. Other than VW, there is not much choice for IB in Mexico in terms of codesharing possibilities.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2012-12-09 09:28:38 and read 5631 times.

If IB leaves MVD too, since Air Europa will be flying MAD-HAV and MAD-SDQ on behalf of IB, Could that same Air Europa fly MAD-MVD non-stop or MAD-VCP-MVD and that way Uruguay keeps a MAD flight?

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: MFC
Posted 2012-12-09 10:21:23 and read 5560 times.

Air Europa won't operate MAD-HAV and MAD-SDQ on behalf of IB, they have been operating that routes for a long time. Iberia mentioned Air Europa in the notice, as well as Egypt Air and Turkish, just to say that they are not leaving the country without services to that cities.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-12-09 13:39:36 and read 5441 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 109):
Air Europa won't operate MAD-HAV and MAD-SDQ on behalf of IB, they have been operating that routes for a long time

Moreover, UX is in Skyteam and does its best to compete with IB. They don't need IB and probably don't want toi help them either.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 108):
Could that same Air Europa fly MAD-MVD non-stop or MAD-VCP-MVD and that way Uruguay keeps a MAD flight?

MAD-VVI is twice weekly (any idea about the laods and yield?). Moreover I doubt that's possible given the current 6hr down time and the fact that it would be difficult from an operational point of view (they'll need a crew to do VVI-MVD-VVI). Maybe prospects for MAD-MVD are better than for MAD-VVI (and thus UX may exchange VVI for MVD), but MVD can also be reached via Buenos Aires, thus no real need to fly to MVD).

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-09 18:32:52 and read 5257 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 110):
MAD-VVI is twice weekly (any idea about the laods and yield?). Moreover I doubt that's possible given the current 6hr down time and the fact that it would be difficult from an operational point of view (they'll need a crew to do VVI-MVD-VVI). Maybe prospects for MAD-MVD are better than for MAD-VVI (and thus UX may exchange VVI for MVD), but MVD can also be reached via Buenos Aires, thus no real need to fly to MVD).

2travel2know2 was proposing a new flight by UX either nonstop to MVD or via Viracopos, Brazil, not via Santa Cruz, Bolivia. I don't think that would happen either, but VVI has nothing to do with his post.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-12-09 19:15:35 and read 5226 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 93):

I know you keep saying this, but that view is only your opinion and not one which can be corroborated by my understanding of the issue or those I know who are familiar with the A330's performance. Yes they could have flown the A333 for the past few years, but they would have been leaving cargo behind at MAD whilst the A343 could fly with a full load of passengers and cargo. The increased fuel burn was more than offset by the increased revenue - that is what really counts, or yes they would have ordered the A333 before.

Maybe. But IB did finally order the 235t A333 last year while the 233t version has been available since 2003. Is a mere 2 tons really that significant for IB? I think they were very slow to react but that's just my opinion of course.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 99):

Perhaps, but IB has a big problem of not making any money. The A340 is a gas guzzler and far from being efficient in this day and age. It seems they waited too long to order the A330s needed to fly these routes much more efficiently.

  
I think o too. At least the N.American routes and the failed secondary Brazilian cities.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: MFC
Posted 2012-12-10 01:09:08 and read 5142 times.

One of the reasons Iberia might not have ordered A330s before is that pilots didn't want to fly them across the Atlantic. I know it makes no sense, but Iberia's pilots have special opinions. I had the opportunity to chat with a crew, and when I asked them about the A330, they said something like it was crazy to fly with only two engines across the pond...  

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: r2rho
Posted 2012-12-10 05:16:49 and read 5030 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 95):
"Next year, and within the Transformation Plan, Iberia will increase its capacity to long haul destination like Brazil, Mexico, Miami, Central America, Chile or Ecuador.

This statement is in direct contradiction with their fleet plan (shrinking an already stretched-thin fleet by 5 aircraft, A333's only replacing one-by-one A343's as they are retired, not for growth). So one of the two statements is wrong.

Quoting MFC (Reply 95):
. It will also increase seat supply to London, Casablanca, Algiers, Dakar, Nouakchott or Malabo."

West Africa is definitely an area with potential for IB that needs to be further developed - high yields, little served destinations, and a geographical advantage with MAD being able to serve the whole region with A32x-family aircraft. MAD can be a great West Africa gateway if they get it right. But at the same time, they are shrinking the short haul fleet by 20 aircraft...  
Quoting MFC (Reply 97):
I don't know if Iberia Express will be able to operate to ATH, because of legal issues their fleet is limited to 14 airplanes currently, so no possible expansion by the moment,

ATH, IST and CAI could easily be done by I2. If the legal conflict is resolved and I2 is allowed to expand, the routes could come back... if there are aircraft left for them in the reduced fleet.
By the way, LH is going to do the same thing with 4U as IB is doing with I2 & VY - I wonder if they will run into the same legal conflicts.

Quoting MFC (Reply 95):
Aegean flies to ATH, Turkish to IST, Egypt Air to CAI (although not many people would like to fly there nowadays) and Air Europa to SDQ and HAV.

What surprises me though is that IB explicitly cites those airlines in their press release, almost inviting customers to book with competitors.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 112):
IB did finally order the 235t A333 last year while the 233t version has been available since 2003. Is a mere 2 tons really that significant for IB? I think they were very slow to react

They were definitely too slow. They could have been covering North America with A333's for a long time now, and A332's for secondary LatAm routes that don't work with A340's. While keeping A340's for the routes that really needed them. There is near-full commonality between A330's and A343's, except for the engines. A "dual" fleet would have been viable since a long time.

Quoting MFC (Reply 113):
One of the reasons Iberia might not have ordered A330s before is that pilots didn't want to fly them across the Atlantic.

I have my doubts about being afraid to fly across the pond on 2 engines, but I have heard rumors that pilot demands - whatever they were - have contributed to delay the A330 decision.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: migair54
Posted 2012-12-10 05:29:03 and read 5001 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 113):
One of the reasons Iberia might not have ordered A330s before is that pilots didn't want to fly them across the Atlantic. I know it makes no sense, but Iberia's pilots have special opinions. I had the opportunity to chat with a crew, and when I asked them about the A330, they said something like it was crazy to fly with only two engines across the pond...  

The mistake is the management, pilots will fly the plane you buy for them, since when pilots can decide to fly or not a type of plane?? it they don´t want and refuse to fly, they just need to fire them and get new pilots, and i´m sure that´s not a big problem in Spain, so they can solve 2 problems with one shot, that was a stupid position by pilots, but we all know that IB pilots are going to say the opposite that the management. Thousand of ETOPS flight everyday, even transpacific like SYD-LAX or flighst like PER-DOH, PER-DXB, even people crossing the atlantic in B-737´s, B757,s and A319´s.


As soon as the first A330 arrive the fleet, i´m sure they will replace the A343 as soon as possible and try to get more A333, now they are doing the same mistake, they should have ordered A350 or B787 time ago, otherwise by the time they can get the slots it will be a very long time, and they will need to retire all that A343 and A346, so they really need to start thinking well in advance.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: airbazar
Posted 2012-12-10 05:40:13 and read 4973 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 114):
I have my doubts about being afraid to fly across the pond on 2 engines, but I have heard rumors that pilot demands - whatever they were - have contributed to delay the A330 decision.

I find this to be a much more plausible reason. We have seen at many other airlines the influence that pilot unions have in fleet planning.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 115):
The mistake is the management, pilots will fly the plane you buy for them, since when pilots can decide to fly or not a type of plane??

It's both. The pilot unions have a lot of influence in fleet planning. In most airlines, management can't introduce a new airplane type without agreement from the unions.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 115):
now they are doing the same mistake, they should have ordered A350 or B787 time ago

I agree with this statement entirely.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-12-10 05:44:42 and read 4969 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 114):
What surprises me though is that IB explicitly cites those airlines in their press release, almost inviting customers to book with competitors.

They are citing them on the press release because they are rebooking direct flights with those companies if possible (i.e. if you have a MAD-IST with IB for February, they will likely place you in the Turkish flight). I guess for connections (let's say CAI-MAD-JFK) you might be rebooked with BA or someone else.

Also there was quite of a controversy in Spain because even in the press they started with biased "patriotic" information suggesting that "historic destinations such as Havana and Santo Domingo will no longer be served from Spain and Spaniards will be forced to fly with BA via LHR" (no kidding)... unfortunately some people forget that there is more in this world other than Iberia, British Airways and Ryanair.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: MFC
Posted 2012-12-10 07:29:34 and read 4860 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 117):
I guess for connections (let's say CAI-MAD-JFK)

I don't think anybody booked that flight, Iberia flight from CAI arrived in MAD at 3AM, not very convenient I guess. CAI is mainly a point to point destination.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 117):
"historic destinations such as Havana and Santo Domingo will no longer be served from Spain and Spaniards will be forced to fly with BA via LHR"

That's right, it's what unions are saying. By the moment, in every cancelled route BA is not the alternative, with the exception of JNB maybe, as BA don't fly to HAV, SDQ, MVD or SJU, and flying via LHR to IST, ATH or CAI is just pointless.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2012-12-10 07:51:53 and read 4829 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 111):
2travel2know2 was proposing a new flight by UX either nonstop to MVD or via Viracopos, Brazil, not via Santa Cruz, Bolivia. I don't think that would happen either, but VVI has nothing to do with his post.

My doubt is if VCP would create such demand. I don't see a lot of Spanish business around Campinas area. They are mostly in Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo city's as well as some in the Northeast.
Also, UX have a very poor record of sustained services. By the way, it seems they will run MAD-GRU next year.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-12-10 07:53:12 and read 4845 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 118):

That was just a sample, but I have flown CAI-MAD a few times myself with IB (also with MS) and I have crossed a few people (mostly Egyptian families) connecting to US destinations... cheap fares do miracles.

But I am not surprised they are axing CAI. Horrible schedules (to connect... but even if MAD is your final destination, getting to the city at 3-4 AM is kind of awkward because it completely breaks your night - it is not such a long flight to sleep or anything; and you will not sleep if you are flying those A319 in Economy   ) with mostly Spanish tourists, and Latin American tourists doing their Israel-Egypt tour. The political situation in Egypt and the economic situation in Spain do not mix well to keep the figures of 2 or 3 years ago. Also, compared to other more exotic mid-haul destinations (SSG, DKR), there are many choices to do one-stop to CAI from MAD or other cities (MS - I think - still flies BCN-CAI, but let's say you are flying from VLC... you can do a VLC-IST-CAI, VLC-ZRH-CAI... no need for a VLC-MAD-CAI).

And keep in mind Egyptair is still flying that route... and they offer a better product (not that MS offers a good product at all) in both cabins (now with the new IB mid-haul Business you can argue they are comparable).

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: migair54
Posted 2012-12-10 08:02:38 and read 4809 times.

Quoting MFC (Reply 118):
I don't think anybody booked that flight, Iberia flight from CAI arrived in MAD at 3AM, not very convenient I guess. CAI is mainly a point to point destination.

So IMO this is another point that makes CAI an unprofitable flight, only point to point and terrible schedule for connecting pax. If we add the spanish crisis, the lack of political stability in Egypt, and competence with MS then we have a loss making route.

I´m sure Iberia Express could do OK in this flight, it´s a late afternoon flight and arrival in the night so they can optimize the fleet utilization, up to 3 am and they by 6 start again a new day.

After transiting via CAI a few times I must say that is a very nice and friendly airport, an every time i see more and more spanish people connecting to Africa and Asia via CAI.

Quoting MFC (Reply 118):
That's right, it's what unions are saying. By the moment, in every cancelled route BA is not the alternative, with the exception of JNB maybe, as BA don't fly to HAV, SDQ, MVD or SJU, and flying via LHR to IST, ATH or CAI is just pointless.

Very true, whoever wrote that press stament didn´t know much about IAG network. By the way, was JNB a loss making route, fares were always super high and I heard that plane was usually quite full.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-12-10 08:09:05 and read 4800 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 121):
After transiting via CAI a few times I must say that is a very nice and friendly airport, an every time i see more and more spanish people connecting to Africa and Asia via CAI.

Terminal 3 (MS and Star) is a new and "nice" (however I think its layout is kind of messy), T1 (where IB is now) is the previous MS/Star terminal that was also renovated and it is quite decent. However IB and most non-Star carriers used T2 (now closed, I don't know if they are doing something with it) until 2009 (when T3 opened, so MS moved there)... and that terminal... wow, it was literally a dump.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2012-12-10 08:23:00 and read 4783 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 119):
My doubt is if VCP would create such demand. I don't see a lot of Spanish business around Campinas area. They are mostly in Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo city's as well as some in the Northeast.
Also, UX have a very poor record of sustained services. By the way, it seems they will run MAD-GRU next year.

I mentioned VCP because: it's so hard to get premium slots @ GRU and flying to VCP still can be disguised as flying to Great Sâo Paulo, also a possible MAD-VCP-MVD may be cheaper to operate than a MAD-MVD non-stop, specially if there's some demand for Uruguay from that part of SAO.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2012-12-10 09:08:40 and read 4724 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 123):
I mentioned VCP because: it's so hard to get premium slots @ GRU and flying to VCP still can be disguised as flying to Great Sâo Paulo, also a possible MAD-VCP-MVD may be cheaper to operate than a MAD-MVD non-stop, specially if there's some demand for Uruguay from that part of SAO.

Understood !
The point of VCP-MVD i got, and agreed. But São Paulo was the only one market that got enough to replace PU operations (with an extra JJ and one G3 flight). Rio also got 1 A32A replacing 2 PU flights, but others... zero.
The fact is PU demand was also made by connections to Buenos Aires, for example.
Question would be the demand VCP-MAD to replace those flying MVD-VCP in a profitable way.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: trinxat
Posted 2012-12-10 10:24:40 and read 4666 times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 35):
Quoting santos (Reply 30):
I read online that Iberia says only 8 of 24 long-haul routes and 2 of 40 domestic routes are profitable.
If this is true, some routes will have to be cut to "save" the airline.

If this is true it is better they close down and start on another business....

haha and when they pulled out of BCN they did it because of "non profitable operations"

Quoting MFC (Reply 44):
Iberia is working on improving their inflight and ground service. A346s will start to be retrofitted on December with new Business Plus and Economy (with PTVs) cabins. The chosen seats are:
- Sogerma Solstys for Business Plus ( which can be found on Alitalia or Etihad planes)

So IB's benchmark in terms of cabin equipment is Alitalia? Seriously?

Quoting summa767 (Reply 52):
Talking about unreliable publications, there are some ridiculous things being written in Spain about how IB is doing badly, because BA is stealing its business. That is following the tune of Iberia's pilot union. Some comments and opinions are outright xenophobic.
Quoting migair54 (Reply 115):
The mistake is the management, pilots will fly the plane you buy for them, since when pilots can decide to fly or not a type of plane?? it they don´t want and refuse to fly, they just need to fire them and get new pilots, and i´m sure that´s not a big problem in Spain, so they can solve 2 problems with one shot, that was a stupid position by pilots, but we all know that IB pilots are going to say the opposite that the management.

In IB and Spain as a whole, SEPLA are the olympic gods, they decide who goes or not on holidays, who is to blame when there's a plane crash, etc so not surprised if they also decide on the A/C types, the food onboard or even the uniforms of the crew. Personally I do not feel any sympathy at all for them, they just deserve the chaos they have just created. They have ruined so many of my holidays and business trips with their seasonal strikes (always in the summer, Christmas, and Easter - every year), that I even feel a bit revengeful now. These unions have ruined IB for many years now, let them face it and explain it to the poor workers that are being laid off

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: MFC
Posted 2012-12-10 10:48:48 and read 4642 times.

Quoting trinxat (Reply 125):
So IB's benchmark in terms of cabin equipment is Alitalia? Seriously?


Installing the same seat as Alitalia doesn't mean that. If you buy the same car as your neighbor is because he is your benchmark or because you also like that car? I put the example so you can see the seat they are installing, anyway, I also mentioned Etihad, is that any bad?

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-12-10 11:10:24 and read 4674 times.

Quoting trinxat (Reply 125):
So IB's benchmark in terms of cabin equipment is Alitalia? Seriously?

I think that AZ is probably a very good benchmark for IB... in fact part of IB's new management comes from there.

Both airlines used to be quite similar; public airlines (then privatized) in Southern Europe (relatively similar countries) with an abysmal service and hard product. Alitalia has gone through a make over and now I think it is even profitable, despite it probably carries a bad reputation (such as Iberia).

They are opening routes like ICN, RUH or AUH. It would be unthinkable in 2012 about IB starting HKG or DOH (Oneworld hubs such as ICN/AUH for SkyTeam). They got their new A330s and even their "old" 777s have PTVs (one very common critique for IB). In fact, the newest A320 in Alitalia's fleet even have personal IFE in Economy class, which is kind of an oddity in intra-European flights for any European carrier. Personally, I still find the service in Alitalia (quite often) kind of "old Southern European monopoly style" (if you know what I mean) but at least they have largely improved in their hard product, and AZ today is quite comparable to other European majors (based on my experience, I would take anyday Alitalia over Air France, for instance).

AZ is not and will not be SQ's in terms of service or EK's in terms of amenities, but they are becoming a decent airline that will carry you from A to B. And that is probably what Iberia could achieve... not just a carrier that many people will fly only as their last resort... the only major European airline with no entertainment in Economy, with more than often rude workers that go on strike whenever they wish and so on.

[Edited 2012-12-10 11:11:48]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-12-10 14:18:05 and read 4541 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 111):
2travel2know2 was proposing a new flight by UX either nonstop to MVD or via Viracopos, Brazil, not via Santa Cruz, Bolivia. I don't think that would happen either, but VVI has nothing to do with his post.

I though it was a mistake as there is no way UX can get another destiantion online given their current fleet doesn't open possibilities. Moreover there is no way they'll go for VCP as it doesný fit in their strategy (or better Skyteams strategy)

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 119):
Also, UX have a very poor record of sustained services. By the way, it seems they will run MAD-GRU next year.

Will be interesting where they'll get the aircraft from as they need an additional A332 if they want to open a new destination in Latin America (they have none on order and the 787s won't come soon).

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 127):
I think that AZ is probably a very good benchmark for IB... in fact part of IB's new management comes from there.

I doubt AZ is a good benchmark. AZ has always been a more worldwide airline than IB. They don't have a single primary market (which IB has). Italy is not similar to Spain if you look at the economy (Italy has much more industry than Spain). The only reason why AZ starts ICN, RUH and AUH is due to Skyteam (whereby AUH will probably be gone should EY enter Skyteam).

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-12-10 14:47:48 and read 4513 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 128):
I doubt AZ is a good benchmark. AZ has always been a more worldwide airline than IB. They don't have a single primary market (which IB has). Italy is not similar to Spain if you look at the economy (Italy has much more industry than Spain). The only reason why AZ starts ICN, RUH and AUH is due to Skyteam (whereby AUH will probably be gone should EY enter Skyteam).

So can you name a better airline to compare to Iberia? Alitalia and Iberia's problems were very much a product of their job market regulations, internal structure (that resembles more a government cabinet than a real corporation) and the fact that they were a state monopoly for decades, with no real market strategy or interest to make a profit. They were privatized but they carried that mentality and practices, and that's when everything burst. In that sense, they are very similar.

Obviously Italy and Spain or Alitalia and Iberia are not identical, but not that far apart; it is not comparing Portugal and Italy in terms of GDP, population or tourism. Whilst I am sure, let's say, Asia generates more traffic to Italy than to Spain (and FCO has a better location than MAD to connections from Europe to Asia), UK-Spain is 3x times larger than UK-Italy, or Germany-Spain is 2x times larger than Germany-Italy in total PAX... and that's millions of passengers. Even if Spain-UK is the busiest pair of countries in the world (more than 30 million of passengers annually... and yes, I know most are holidaymakers to the likes of ALC or AGP) and IB's partner is British, IB cannot even maintain a single route other than LHR to the UK.

Certainly those AZ routes probably have to do a lot with SkyTeam (as I said), but not necessarily entirely. AZ also flies to NRT, KIX, TBS, EVN and IKA east of Italy (none of them SkyTeam hubs) and they plan to open DEL in the future. They are even starting FOR and REC next year... Iberia tried them a couple of years ago and failed. ICN is a Korean/SkyTeam hub, but not much connectivity is possible in any direction (from Korea mostly to Japan - where AZ already flies -; and from Italy to Spain or Portugal - and KE also flies to Spain -). However it is certainly hard to imagine IB today opening HKG (a major OW hub with excellent connectivity to Asia and Australia, currently not served from Spain/Portugal) or NRT (both Oneworld hubs).

[Edited 2012-12-10 14:48:53]

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-10 15:17:33 and read 4469 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 128):
though it was a mistake as there is no way UX can get another destiantion online given their current fleet doesn't open possibilities. Moreover there is no way they'll go for VCP as it doesný fit in their strategy (or better Skyteams strategy)

Yes, I agree. I do not think we will see IB or UX flying to VCP. I do not think UX will pick MVD up. If any, we will see IB or UX codesharing on Uruguayan airline BQB's to-be-launched services to MVD.

Quoting LJ (Reply 128):
the 787s won't come soon)

Do they have 787s or A358XWB's on order?

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-12-10 15:31:49 and read 4448 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 119):
I don't see a lot of Spanish business around Campinas area. They are mostly in Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo city's as well as some in the Northeast.

Has LAN applied for SCL-GIG-MAD as yet?

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 130):
If any, we will see IB or UX codesharing on Uruguayan airline BQB's to-be-launched services to MVD.

Certainly not IB. IB has stated that flights to Montevideo will be offered, "via other Iberia destinations in the region."

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-10 17:36:49 and read 4386 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 120):
And keep in mind Egyptair is still flying that route... and they offer a better product (not that MS offers a good product at all) in both cabins (now with the new IB mid-haul Business you can argue they are comparable).

I expect many Spanish passengers like a glass or two of wine with their meal, and aren't alcoholic drinks still free on IB?. MS doesn't serve alcohol.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: juanchito
Posted 2012-12-10 18:22:49 and read 4351 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 130):
Do they have 787s or A358XWB's on order?

Yes they have 12 on order.

Juanchito

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2012-12-10 18:55:56 and read 4338 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 132):

Far from setting MS as any standard of quality, I would rather have better pitch (esp. in Economy, which is quite generous in MS' mid-haul... and not IB's A319) or a real AVOD (and not a PSP like in IB) in Business for a 4/5-hour flight rather than a beer or a glass of wine. And don't forget that until 2009, IB's A319 only had an "European" business class... for a mid-haul flight.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2012-12-11 14:49:17 and read 4133 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 131):
Has LAN applied for SCL-GIG-MAD as yet?

Not yet !

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 131):
Certainly not IB. IB has stated that flights to Montevideo will be offered, "via other Iberia destinations in the region."

Considering their partnerships, i don't expect them to have that. Nowadays the best options are EZE and GRU. GIG is not a good option for MAD-GIG as the sole MVD flight departs very early.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2012-12-11 19:02:05 and read 4077 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 110):
MAD-VVI is twice weekly (any idea about the laods and yield?).


Boliviana de Aviacion has just started the MAD-VVI sector as 4x weekly with 332.
The first flight began on December 07th.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: r2rho
Posted 2012-12-13 06:07:06 and read 3828 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 117):
"historic destinations such as Havana and Santo Domingo will no longer be served from Spain and Spaniards will be forced to fly with BA via LHR" (no kidding)... unfortunately some people forget that there is more in this world other than Iberia, British Airways and Ryanair.

Journalists neet to do a bit more investigation and less "re-tweeting"... and UX clearly needs to increase public awareness...Then again:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 119):
UX have a very poor record of sustained services.

Indeed they have flown to many LatAm destinations during their history, but they don't seem to do it with continuity and consistency, trying out new destinations and dropping others rather frequently. And more leisure-oriented and not so attractive to the business pax.

However, the first reaction is already here, UX is going 14x weekly (a doubling of frequency) to SDQ. This is in addition to 7x weekly PUJ:

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2012/12/12/economia/1355340400.html

...and BQB taking over MAD-MVD:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-madrid-montevideo-flights-380096/

It seems that others believe that they can make money on IB's routes, proving that the so-called "unprofitable routes" are not due to lack of market demand but a problem with IB's cost base.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: PDPsol
Posted 2012-12-13 06:30:11 and read 3805 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 131):
Certainly not IB. IB has stated that flights to Montevideo will be offered, "via other Iberia destinations in the region."
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 135):
Considering their partnerships, i don't expect them to have that. Nowadays the best options are EZE and GRU. GIG is not a good option for MAD-GIG as the sole MVD flight departs very early.

That is not what Flightglobal reported earlier this week:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-madrid-montevideo-flights-380096/

"The flights will be operated on a codeshare basis with Iberia."

This is from their spokesperson, do not know where you are getting your information.

If they do not code share with IB, they can always code share with UX.

BQB must operate with a code share partner in MAD to offer ongoing connections as well as mileage plan benefits for a major global alliance.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-12-13 06:54:23 and read 3782 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 137):

However, the first reaction is already here, UX is going 14x weekly (a doubling of frequency) to SDQ. This is in addition to 7x weekly PUJ:

Does this mean PUJ is no longer nonstop? Seems to me they'll be doing a daily MAD-SDQ-PUJ-SDQ-MAD rotation. If not, where will they get the aircraft from?

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2012-12-13 07:20:03 and read 3749 times.

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 138):
That is not what Flightglobal reported earlier this week:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-madrid-montevideo-flights-380096/

"The flights will be operated on a codeshare basis with Iberia."

Thanks for sharing.
This brings a different color to their operation and a better perspective. Without IB, any new player trying MVD-MAD would have a lot of trouble to deal with the connections.
We will have to see how their product (BQB) will look like.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2012-12-13 09:51:15 and read 3673 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 137):
UX is going 14x weekly (a doubling of frequency) to SDQ. This is in addition to 7x weekly PUJ:

Wow, that seems to me like a lot of capacity to the D.R. I suppose UX would not do this if there were not sufficient demand. All the best to UX.

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 138):
"The flights will be operated on a codeshare basis with Iberia."

This is from their spokesperson, do not know where you are getting your information.

If they do not code share with IB, they can always code share with UX.

BQB must operate with a code share partner in MAD to offer ongoing connections as well as mileage plan benefits for a major global alliance.

I agree that BQB will need a codeshare partner. Otherwise, the success prospects for this venture would be seriously diminished. In all honesty, IB seems to be the best candidate. It would give a lot of feed to BQB at MAD, so that would be good for BQB. On the other hand, IB would keep a revenue stream from ops to/from MVD, which is also good for them.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2012-12-13 10:19:50 and read 3639 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 112):
Maybe. But IB did finally order the 235t A333 last year while the 233t version has been available since 2003. Is a mere 2 tons really that significant for IB?

It would appear so, at least in part.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 114):
They were definitely too slow. They could have been covering North America with A333's for a long time now, and A332's for secondary LatAm routes that don't work with A340's. While keeping A340's for the routes that really needed them. There is near-full commonality between A330's and A343's, except for the engines. A "dual" fleet would have been viable since a long time.

I agree regarding the A332s - that would have been ideal for route opening/long and thin from MAD and as a workhorse from BCN.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: SJOtoLIR
Posted 2012-12-13 18:18:55 and read 3541 times.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 137):
UX is going 14x weekly (a doubling of frequency) to SDQ. This is in addition to 7x weekly PUJ:


UX MAD-HAV will also increase their services in Cuba as it goes from 7x to 11x weekly.
This sector was attended by IB MAD-HAV 7x weekly. IberWorld flew the same route before, if I remember correctly.

Regards.

Topic: RE: Iberia Might Suspend HAV, SDQ & SJO Services
Username: r2rho
Posted 2012-12-14 04:48:37 and read 3439 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 139):
Does this mean PUJ is no longer nonstop? Seems to me they'll be doing a daily MAD-SDQ-PUJ-SDQ-MAD rotation. If not, where will they get the aircraft from?

I was only quoting the article, which doesn't go into specifics about non-stops or rotations. I agree that's a lot of frequency for the limited UX fleet, and a lot of capacity being offered, so perhaps a daily non-stop plus a daily rotation make more sense.


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