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Topic: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-26 09:57:25 and read 11493 times.

INSTRUCTIONS

WHAT IS THIS REPORT?
This compares what is for sale THIS WEEK for the stated period versus what was for sale LAST WEEK...It does NOT compare to last year or now (UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED).

HOW DO I READ IT?
XXX-YYY DEC 4>5 JAN 4>5 ; means that the listed airline changed the frequency between the two airports to add from 4 to 5 roundtrips in December and January. No other months were changed. I only list one direction, although it is possible the listed change is only one way. It is too difficult to average the two directions. I assume the change is roundtrip and that is most often the case.

HOW ARE THE DAILY DEPARTURES CALCULATED?
This report uses total operations for the month listed, divided over the days in the month.

WHAT ARE THE FRACTIONAL FLIGHTS?
Non-daily operations create fractional weekly service. In most cases flights are rounded, but in the case of international service or markets with low frequency, fractions are shown. If a flight operated 5 days out of 7, it would show 0.8 flights.

WHY ARE THERE WEIRD FREQUENCIES IN FAR AWAY MONTHS FOR LCCs?
Most airlines publish schedules 11 months in advance. This report covers the next 9 months. That avoids seeing schedules as they are loaded. Several LCCs load their schedules less than 9 months into the future. Their schedules may also end mid-month. If B6 loads their schedule until Jan15, all flights in Janaury will show half frequency because of the way the report is created.

WHY IS A WHOLE AIRLINE'S SCHEDULE SHOWN AS CHANGING FOR A FUTURE MONTH?
Similarly to the previous question, some airlines load their schedule from nothing inside the 9 month window of this report. When their schedule is extended it will show as new service because there was no previous schedule to compare to. In some instances I will show a more valid comparison against another period.

THOSE FLIGHTS AREN'T DELTA, THEY ARE PINNACLE
This report only shows the marketing code. It is too complicated to show all the operators.

THE FREQUENCIES MAY HAVE CHANGED AS YOU SHOW, BUT THE SEATS DIDNT CHANGE BECAUSE OF EQUIPMENT SWAPS
That is a natural weakness of a frequency based report, but it provides something to discuss below.

THE FREQUENCY DOESN'T SHOW A CHANGE, E.G. 4>4
This happens as a result of rounding. There is a change in service that is large enough to be listed, but through rounding it does not appear.

I marked some of the ones I thought were interesting with an "*".

AC MDT-YYZ JAN 1.8>1.6
AC MIA-YUL JAN 1.0>0.8
AC PBI-YYZ JAN 2>1.7
AC PHX-YYZ JAN 2>1.9
AC PVD-YYZ JAN 1.6>1.5
AC PWM-YYZ JAN 1.7>1.6
AC RIC-YYZ JAN 1.7>1.6
AC ROC-YYZ JAN 1.7>1.6
AC SYR-YYZ JAN 1.7>1.6

AF DTW-CDG JAN 0.8>0.7

AM LAX-LTO JAN 0.2>0
AM LRD-MTY JAN 0>1.0 FEB 0>1.0 MAR 0>1.0 APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
AM MIA-MEX JAN 5>4
AM SMF-GDL JAN 0.7>0.9

B6 BOS-BUF MAY 4>5
B6 BOS-BWI MAY 5>6
B6 BOS-EWR MAY 5>6
B6 BOS-JAX MAY 1.0>2
Interesting
*B6 BOS-LAS MAR 1.8>3 APR 1.9>3 MAY 2>3
B6 BOS-NAS MAR 1.0>1.2 APR 1.0>1.2
B6 BOS-PDX MAR 0.4>0.2 APR 1.0>0.6
*B6 BOS-PIT MAY 3>4
B6 BOS-PUJ MAR 0.5>0.6
B6 BOS-RIC MAY 2>3
B6 BOS-SAN MAY 1.0>1.9
B6 BOS-SJC APR 1.0>0.5
B6 BOS-SJU MAR 3>4
B6 HPN-NAS APR 0.9>0.8
B6 JFK-AUS MAR 2>3
B6 JFK-BGI MAR 1.0>0.7
B6 JFK-BTV APR 4>3
B6 JFK-LIR APR 1.0>0.8
B6 JFK-PBI MAR 8>7 APR 8>7
B6 JFK-PLS FEB 1.2>1.4 MAR 1.1>1.2
B6 JFK-PUJ FEB 1.4>1.9 MAR 1.4>1.6 APR 1.1>1.5
B6 MCO-SJU FEB 7>6 MAR 7>6 APR 7>6
B6 SJU-SDQ FEB 4>3 MAR 4>3 APR 4>3

*DL ATL-LHR APR 2>3 MAY 2>3 JUN 2>3 JUL 2>3
DL GUM-NRT JUL 3>4
DL ISN-MSP MAR 2>3 APR 2>3 MAY 2>3 JUN 2>3 JUL 2.0>3
DL JFK-IAD JUN 3>2 JUL 3>2
*DL JFK-KEF MAY 0.3>0 JUN 1.0>0.7 JUL 1.0>0.9
DL JFK-RSW APR 1.0>0.2 MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0
DL LGA-BGR MAR 3>4 APR 3>4 MAY 3>4 JUN 3>4
Wow, here comes the axe we expected...About 21 more...
*DL MEM-BHM JAN 3>0.1 FEB 3>0 MAR 3>0 APR 3>0 MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0
*DL MEM-BNA JAN 3>1.6 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-FLL APR 1.0>0.2 MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0.7
*DL MEM-JAN JAN 3>1.7 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.5 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-JAX JAN 1.6>0.1 FEB 1.6>0 MAR 1.7>0 APR 1.7>0 MAY 1.7>0 JUN 1.7>0 JUL 1.7>0
*DL MEM-LAX FEB 2.0>1.4 MAR 3>1.3 APR 3>1.4 MAY 3>1.4 JUN 3>1.6 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-LIT JAN 1.6>0.9 FEB 1.6>0.8 MAR 1.7>0.8 APR 1.7>0.9 MAY 1.7>0.8 JUN 1.7>0.8 JUL 1.7>0.9
*DL MEM-MCI JAN 3>1.6 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-MCO MAY 3>1.8
*DL MEM-RDU JAN 3>1.6 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-SAT MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-SEA JUN 0.7>0 JUL 1.0>0
*DL MEM-SFO JUL 0.8>0
*DL MEM-STL JAN 3>1.6 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-TUL JAN 1.6>0.8 FEB 1.6>0.8 MAR 1.7>0.8 APR 1.7>0.9 MAY 1.7>0.8 JUN 1.7>0.8 JUL 1.7>0.9
*DL MEM-TYS JAN 3>1.6 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
DL MSP-YVR JAN 2.0>1.8 FEB 1.9>1.8
DL ROR-NRT APR 0.4>0.3 MAY 0.4>0.3 JUN 0.4>0.3
DL SLC-BOS MAR 1.0>1.9
DL SLC-YVR APR 1.6>1.8 MAY 1.5>1.8
DL SLC-YYC JAN 1.8>1.7

K5 EAT-YKM DEC 1.5>0.7 JAN 1.6>0 FEB 1.6>0 MAR 1.5>0 APR 1.6>0 MAY 1.6>0 JUN 1.5>0 JUL 1.6>0
K5 PDX-YKM DEC 1.5>0.7 JAN 1.6>0 FEB 1.6>0 MAR 1.5>0 APR 1.6>0 MAY 1.6>0 JUN 1.5>0 JUL 1.6>0

LA MHC-PMC MAR 0.1>0.6

LW BRL-ORD DEC 0>2
LW BRL-STL DEC 0>1.7
LW DEC-ORD DEC 0>3
LW DEC-STL DEC 0>3
LW JBR-STL DEC 0>3

LY JFK-TLV APR 2.0>1.8


*NK ATL-DFW FEB 1.0>2 MAR 1.0>2 APR 1.0>1.8
NK DFW-LAS FEB 2>3 MAR 2>3 APR 2>3
*NK DFW-PDX JAN 1.0>0.2 FEB 1.0>0 MAR 1.0>0 APR 1.0>0.2
*NK DFW-TLC JAN 1.0>0.3 FEB 1.0>0 MAR 1.0>0 APR 1.0>0.2

SY DFW-CUN MAR 0.3>0.4

UA CLE-BTV MAY 1.5>1.0
UA CLE-MCO JUL 3>2
*UA CLE-PWM MAY 0>0.7 JUN 0>0.9 JUL 0>1.0
UA DEN-ABQ MAY 6>5 JUN 6>5 JUL 6>5
UA DEN-ASE MAY 7>5
UA DEN-BOS MAY 4>3
UA DEN-MAF MAY 2>3 JUN 2>3 JUL 2>3
UA DEN-MEM MAY 1.9>1.0
UA DEN-PSP MAY 4>3 JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3
UA DEN-PVR MAY 0.4>0.3
UA DEN-SJD MAY 0.3>0.4
UA EWR-ANU MAY 0.4>0.3
*UA EWR-BZE MAY 0>0.1 JUN 0>0.2 JUL 0>0.1
UA EWR-PUJ MAY 1.0>1.3
UA EWR-PVR MAY 0.1>0.3
UA EWR-SJD MAY 0.3>0.4
UA EWR-SXM MAY 1.0>0.8
UA IAD-BGM MAY 4>3 JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3
UA IAD-CUN MAY 0.5>0.7
UA IAH-GCM MAY 0.7>1.0
UA IAH-RTB MAY 0.5>0.7
UA IAH-SJD MAY 1.8>1.7
UA ORD-ANC MAY 0>0.6 JUN 0.8>1.0
UA ORD-SJD MAY 0.1>0.3
UA SFO-HNL MAR 4>5 APR 4>5

US CLT-YUL FEB 1.7>1.3 MAR 1.8>1.0 APR 1.9>1.6
US PHX-HNL APR 1.6>1.7
US PHX-KOA APR 0.9>0.7
US PHX-KOA APR 0.9>0.7

WN/FL combined 2013 vs. 2012
WN ABQ-ELP MAY 1.8>0 JUN 1.8>0 JUL 1.9>0
WN ABQ-STL MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0
WN ABQ-TUS MAY 2.0>1.0 JUN 2>0.0 JUL 2>0
WN ALB-MCO JUN 2>1.2 JUL 2>1.1
Looks like ATL is down around 20 RTs YOY
WN ATL-AUA MAY 1.0>0.6 JUN 0.3>0.6 JUL 0.4>0.6
WN ATL-BKG MAY 2>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2>0
WN ATL-BWI MAY 10>9 JUN 11>10 JUL 11>10
WN ATL-CLT MAY 3>0 JUN 4>0 JUL 4>0
WN ATL-CUN JUL 3>2
WN ATL-DEN JUN 5>4 JUL 6>4
WN ATL-FNT MAY 3>0 JUN 4>0 JUL 4>0
WN ATL-HOU JUN 9>8 JUL 10>8
WN ATL-LAS MAY 5>4
WN ATL-LAX JUL 5>4
Wow, Delta must be happy. The "hub" is disintegrating.
*WN ATL-LGA MAY 9>8 JUN 9>6 JUL 9>6
WN ATL-MCO MAY 11>10
WN ATL-MDW JUN 11>10 JUL 12>10
WN ATL-MEM MAY 4>5
WN ATL-MSY JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4
WN ATL-ORF MAY 0>3 JUN 0>3 JUL 0>3
WN ATL-PHL MAY 5>4
WN ATL-PHX MAY 3>2 JUN 3>2 JUL 3>1.9
WN ATL-RDU MAY 4>3 JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3
WN ATL-ROC MAY 2>0 JUN 2.0>0 JUL 2>0
WN ATL-SDF MAY 0>3 JUN 0>3 JUL 0>3
WN ATL-SEA MAY 1.0>0 JUN 3>1.0 JUL 2>1.0
WN ATL-SFO MAY 3>2
WN ATL-SJU MAY 3>1.3
WN AUS-CUN MAY 0.1>0.4
WN AUS-DAL JUN 12>11 JUL 12>11
WN AUS-DCA MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN AUS-ELP JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3
WN AUS-EWR MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN AUS-LBB JUN 1.7>1.0 JUL 1.7>1.0
WN AUS-MDW JUL 2>3
WN BDL-RSW MAY 0>0.9
WN BHM-BNA MAY 1.9>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2>0
WN BHM-JAX JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0
WN BHM-MSY JUN 1.8>0.0 JUL 1.9>0
WN BHM-PHX MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0
WN BKG-DAL MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN BKG-HOU JUN 1.0>2.0 JUL 1.0>2
WN BNA-BOS MAY 0>1.8 JUN 0>1.8 JUL 0>1.9
WN BNA-BWI MAY 7>6
WN BNA-EWR MAY 0>2 JUN 0>1.9 JUL 0>1.9
WN BNA-FLL MAY 2>3
WN BNA-LGA MAY 0>2 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2
WN BNA-MSY MAY 3>4 JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4
WN BNA-SAN MAY 1.9>1.0
WN BOI-PDX MAY 1.9>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2.0>0
WN BOS-MCI MAY 0>1.9 JUN 0>1.8 JUL 0>1.9
WN BOS-MCO JUN 0.1>1.8 JUL 0>1.9
WN BOS-MKE JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3
WN BOS-RSW MAY 1.0>0
WN BUF-BWI MAY 7>6
WN BUR-DEN MAY 1.9>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2>0
WN BWI-AUA MAY 0.3>0.7 JUN 0.3>0.7 JUL 0.3>0.7
WN BWI-BDA MAY 1.0>0.3
WN BWI-CLT MAY 3>2 JUN 3>2 JUL 3>2
WN BWI-CUN MAY 1.3>2 JUN 1.2>2 JUL 1.1>2
WN BWI-ECP MAY 2>1.1
WN BWI-EWR MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0
WN BWI-FLL MAY 8>11 JUN 8>11 JUL 7>11
WN BWI-FNT MAY 0>3 JUN 0>3 JUL 0>3
WN BWI-GRR JUN 3>2 JUL 3>2
WN BWI-ISP JUL 6>5
WN BWI-LAX JUN 3>2.0 JUL 3>1.9
WN BWI-LGA MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0
WN BWI-MBJ MAY 1.0>1.6 JUN 1.3>2 JUL 1.3>2
WN BWI-MCO JUN 13>11 JUL 13>11
WN BWI-PUJ MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN BWI-PVD MAY 9>8
WN BWI-ROC MAY 3>2 JUN 3>2 JUL 3>2
WN BWI-SEA JUN 3>1.8 JUL 3>1.8
WN BWI-SJU JUN 2>4 JUL 2>4
WN BWI-TPA JUN 9>7 JUL 9>7
WN CAK-DEN MAY 0>1.0
WN CAK-MDW MAY 0>1.9 JUN 0>1.8 JUL 0>1.9
WN CLT-HOU MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN CLT-MDW MAY 0>2 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2
WN CMH-MCO MAY 4>3
WN CMH-TPA JUN 3>2 JUL 3>2
WN DAL-HRL MAY 0>1.9 JUN 0>2.0 JUL 0>2
WN DAL-ICT JUN 0>1.9 JUL 0>2
WN DAL-MAF MAY 6>5 JUN 6>5 JUL 6>5
WN DAL-MSY MAY 7>8 JUN 7>8 JUL 7>8
WN DAL-OKC JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4
WN DAL-SAT JUN 13>12 JUL 13>12
WN DAY-DEN MAY 0>1.0
WN DAY-TPA MAY 0.1>1.0 JUN 0.2>1.1 JUL 0.1>1.1
WN DCA-STL MAY 0>2 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2
WN DEN-CUN JUL 0.7>1.0
WN DEN-EWR MAY 3>1.9 JUN 3>2.0 JUL 3>2
WN DEN-FLL JUN 2>1.2 JUL 2.0>1.1
WN DEN-LGA MAY 0>2

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-26 09:58:13 and read 11543 times.

WN DEN-MKE MAY 3>1.8 JUN 3>2.0 JUL 3>2
WN DEN-RDU JUN 1.0>2.0 JUL 1.0>2.0
WN DEN-SDF MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN DEN-SMF JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4
WN DSM-MDW MAY 0>2 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2
WN DTW-LAS MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN ECP-HOU MAY 2>3
WN ECP-MCO MAY 2>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2>0
WN ECP-STL MAY 0>1.0
WN ELP-PHX JUN 6>5 JUL 6>5
WN EWR-HOU MAY 1.9>3 JUL 1.9>3
WN EWR-MSY MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN EWR-PHX MAY 2.0>1.0 JUN 2>1.0 JUL 2>1.0
WN EYW-MSY MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN FLL-ISP JUN 2>1.2 JUL 2>1.1
WN FLL-MCO MAY 5>0 JUN 5>0 JUL 4>0
WN FLL-MSY MAY 2>3 JUN 2>3 JUL 2>3
WN FLL-SJU MAY 0.5>2.0
WN FLL-TPA MAY 7>5 JUN 6>5 JUL 6>5
WN FNT-TPA MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0.1>1.0 JUL 0.1>1.0
WN GEG-PDX MAY 2>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2.0>0
WN HOU-HRL MAY 5>4 JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4
WN HOU-IND MAY 0>1.9 JUN 0>1.8 JUL 0>1.9
WN HOU-JAN JUN 3>2 JUL 3>2
WN HOU-JAX JUN 1.0>1.8 JUL 1.0>1.8
WN HOU-LGA JUN 0>1.9 JUL 0>2
WN HOU-MAF MAY 1.7>3 JUL 1.8>3
WN HOU-MCI MAY 1.0>1.7 JUL 1.0>1.7
WN HOU-MDW MAY 6>7
WN HOU-PHL MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.8>0 JUL 1.9>0
WN HOU-PIT MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN HOU-RDU MAY 1.0>1.7 JUL 1.0>1.7
WN HOU-SNA MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN HRL-SAT MAY 1.7>0.9 JUN 1.7>1.0 JUL 1.7>1.0
WN IAD-MDW MAY 6>5
WN ICT-LAS JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN ICT-MDW JUN 0>1.9 JUL 0>2
WN IND-MCO JUN 6>5 JUL 6>5
WN IND-MDW MAY 4>0 JUN 4>0 JUL 4>0
WN IND-RSW MAY 0.3>2
WN IND-TPA MAY 4>3 JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4
WN ISP-PBI MAY 3>2
WN JAX-ORF JUN 1.8>1.0 JUL 1.8>1.0
WN LAS-MAF MAY 1.0>1.7 JUN 1.0>1.8 JUL 1.0>1.8
WN LAS-MDW MAY 10>9 JUN 10>9 JUL 10>9
WN LAS-MHT MAY 1.0>0
WN LAS-MKE MAY 5>3 JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4
WN LAS-PHX JUN 13>12 JUL 13>12
WN LAS-PVD MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0
WN LAS-SEA MAY 5>4
WN LAS-SLC MAY 7>6 JUN 7>6 JUL 7>6
WN LAS-SNA MAY 7>8
WN LAS-TUS JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4
WN LAX-MCI MAY 1.9>3
WN LAX-MKE MAY 1.9>1.0
WN LAX-PHX JUN 10>9 JUL 10>9
WN LAX-TUS MAY 5>4 JUN 5>3 JUL 5>3
WN LGA-MDW MAY 5>6 JUN 5>6 JUL 5>6
WN LGA-MKE MAY 5>4 JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4
WN LGA-STL MAY 0>2.0 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2
WN LIT-STL MAY 1.7>1.0 JUN 1.8>0.0 JUL 1.9>0
WN MCI-MSP MAY 0>2 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2.0
WN MCI-MSY MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN MCO-MBJ MAY 1.0>0.7
WN MCO-MDW JUN 10>11
WN MCO-MKE JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4
WN MCO-PHL MAY 7>6
WN MCO-ROC MAY 1.0>1.9 JUN 1.0>2.0 JUL 1.0>2
WN MCO-RSW MAY 4>0 JUN 4>0 JUL 4>0
WN MCO-SAT MAY 2.0>1.0
WN MCO-SJU MAY 4>3 JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4
WN MCO-STL JUN 5>6 JUL 5>6
WN MDW-CUN MAY 0>2 JUN 0.9>1.0
WN MDW-MHT JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3
WN MDW-MSY JUN 2>3 JUL 2>3
WN MDW-OKC MAY 0>1.9 JUN 0.9>1.7 JUL 1.0>1.7
WN MDW-PVD JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3
WN MDW-ROC MAY 0>2 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2
WN MDW-SFO MAY 3>2
WN MDW-TUL JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN MHT-TPA JUN 2>1.2 JUL 2>1.1
WN MKE-MSP MAY 4>3 JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3
WN MKE-MSY JUN 0.1>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
WN MKE-PHX MAY 4>3 JUN 4>2 JUL 3>2.0
WN MKE-RSW MAY 1.2>2
WN MKE-SEA JUN 1.8>1.0 JUL 1.9>1.0
WN MKE-SFO MAY 2>1.0
WN MSY-STL MAY 1.0>1.7 JUN 1.0>1.8 JUL 1.0>1.9
WN MSY-TPA JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4
WN OAK-ONT MAY 8>7
WN OAK-RNO MAY 3>1.9 JUN 3>0.1 JUL 3>0
WN OAK-SEA MAY 7>6
WN OAK-SNA MAY 7>8
WN OMA-PHX JUN 2>1.2 JUL 2>1.1
WN ORF-TPA MAY 1.0>0.1 JUN 1.0>0.0 JUL 1.0>0
WN PBI-TPA MAY 4>0 JUN 4>0 JUL 3>0
WN PDX-RNO MAY 3>2.0 JUN 3>2 JUL 3>2.0
WN PDX-SLC MAY 3>2.0 JUN 3>2 JUL 3>2
WN PHL-PHX JUN 1.9>1.1 JUL 2.0>1.1
WN PHL-RDU MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0
WN PHL-TPA JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3
WN PHX-SMF MAY 6>5 JUN 6>5 JUL 6>5
WN PHX-SNA MAY 8>7
WN PHX-TUL MAY 2.0>1.0
WN PIT-TPA MAY 2.0>3 JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4
WN RDU-STL JUN 1.0>1.8 JUL 1.0>1.8
WN RNO-SLC MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0
WN RSW-STL MAY 1.0>1.8
WN SAN-SMF JUN 10>9 JUL 10>9
WN SAN-STL MAY 0>1.0
WN SAT-CUN MAY 0.2>0.4
WN SAT-MEX MAY 0.3>1.0
WN SAT-STL MAY 0>1.8 JUN 0>1.8 JUL 0>1.8
WN SEA-SLC MAY 3>2
WN SFO-SNA MAY 6>7
WN SJC-SNA MAY 8>9 JUN 8>9 JUL 8>9
WN SJU-TPA MAY 2>1.0 JUN 2>1.0 JUL 2>1.0
WN SMF-SNA MAY 6>7
WN SNA-MEX MAY 0>1.0
WN SNA-SJD MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0.9>2.0 JUL 1.0>2
WN TPA-SJU MAY 2>1.0 JUN 2>1.0 JUL 2>1.0

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-26 09:59:55 and read 11517 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Wow, here comes the axe we expected...About 21 more...
*DL MEM-BHM JAN 3>0.1 FEB 3>0 MAR 3>0 APR 3>0 MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0
*DL MEM-BNA JAN 3>1.6 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-FLL APR 1.0>0.2 MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0.7
*DL MEM-JAN JAN 3>1.7 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.5 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-JAX JAN 1.6>0.1 FEB 1.6>0 MAR 1.7>0 APR 1.7>0 MAY 1.7>0 JUN 1.7>0 JUL 1.7>0
*DL MEM-LAX FEB 2.0>1.4 MAR 3>1.3 APR 3>1.4 MAY 3>1.4 JUN 3>1.6 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-LIT JAN 1.6>0.9 FEB 1.6>0.8 MAR 1.7>0.8 APR 1.7>0.9 MAY 1.7>0.8 JUN 1.7>0.8 JUL 1.7>0.9
*DL MEM-MCI JAN 3>1.6 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-MCO MAY 3>1.8
*DL MEM-RDU JAN 3>1.6 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-SAT MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-SEA JUN 0.7>0 JUL 1.0>0
*DL MEM-SFO JUL 0.8>0
*DL MEM-STL JAN 3>1.6 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
*DL MEM-TUL JAN 1.6>0.8 FEB 1.6>0.8 MAR 1.7>0.8 APR 1.7>0.9 MAY 1.7>0.8 JUN 1.7>0.8 JUL 1.7>0.9
*DL MEM-TYS JAN 3>1.6 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7

I think the only reason they don't go down to 20RTs right now is the exit stream of CRJs. I think this takes them from 80 to 60 rts, but I'm not sure that is exactly accurate.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-26 10:01:29 and read 11475 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*NK DFW-TLC JAN 1.0>0.3 FEB 1.0>0 MAR 1.0>0 APR 1.0>0.2

That had to be dreadful. Like a daily flight in the middle of the night to ISP 

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: krsw757
Posted 2012-11-26 10:07:04 and read 11400 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL JFK-RSW APR 1.0>0.2 MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0

So was this route only meant to be seasonal? Doesn't even start for a few more weeks.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: steex
Posted 2012-11-26 10:11:08 and read 11354 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
I think the only reason they don't go down to 20RTs right now is the exit stream of CRJs. I think this takes them from 80 to 60 rts, but I'm not sure that is exactly accurate.

According to the other threads, this latest cut leaves MEM at just over 90 daily departures (down from 110+).

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
LW BRL-ORD DEC 0>2
LW BRL-STL DEC 0>1.7
LW DEC-ORD DEC 0>3
LW DEC-STL DEC 0>3
LW JBR-STL DEC 0>3

Anyone have any info about this? I've been doing some searching and can't seem to find any news about one of the Pacific Wings carriers taking over these routes from Air Choice One (which operates them under the 3E/Weber code).

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: FlyPeoria
Posted 2012-11-26 10:22:31 and read 11259 times.

Quoting steex (Reply 5):

The only thing I could find was this:

http://m.herald-review.com/news/loca...2-02e5-11e2-a365-0019bb2963f4.html

"CEO Shane Storz said the airline has found a way to establish electronic ticketing and baggage transitions with major airlines, enabling a more seamless experience for passengers connecting to a larger carrier in Chicago or St. Louis. He made the announcement at the Decatur Park District Board of Commissioners’ regular meeting Wednesday.

Such agreements are difficult for small airlines to establish with large carriers, Storz said, and he has experienced challenges trying to do so over the past few years. He said he was essentially leasing the access through an agreement with Hawaii-based Pacific Wings Holdings."

So maybe Air Choice One flights are simply operating under Pacific Wings Holdings' code?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-26 10:24:51 and read 11241 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
That had to be dreadful. Like a daily flight in the middle of the night to ISP 
Quoting krsw757 (Reply 4):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL JFK-RSW APR 1.0>0.2 MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0

So was this route only meant to be seasonal? Doesn't even start for a few more weeks.
Quoting steex (Reply 5):
According to the other threads, this latest cut leaves MEM at just over 90 daily departures (down from 110+).

I only see 82rts in December before this cut even happens. I think part of the difference is that DL is basically flying everything 5/week or less. My numbers of monthly average. The "daily flights" they are referring to is probably the number of departures on MON and FRI.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-11-26 10:26:36 and read 11216 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL SLC-BOS MAR 1.0>1.9

Spring Break seems like theyshould have no problem filling the seats

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL SLC-YVR APR 1.6>1.8 MAY 1.5>1.8
DL SLC-YYC JAN 1.8>1.7

DL loves to tweek these routes so often its rediculous

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-26 10:27:34 and read 11220 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL JFK-KEF MAY 0.3>0 JUN 1.0>0.7 JUL 1.0>0.9

This route always does horrible. Does Icelandair have service to JFK?

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL MEM-LAX FEB 2.0>1.4 MAR 3>1.3 APR 3>1.4 MAY 3>1.4 JUN 3>1.6 JUL 3>1.7
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL MEM-SEA JUN 0.7>0 JUL 1.0>0
*DL MEM-SFO JUL 0.8>0

Jeeez.....two Asian gateways slashed and one down to the bare minimum. I wonder if AS will come into MEM at all...

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: rgreenftm
Posted 2012-11-26 10:31:38 and read 11172 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
WN ATL-SEA MAY 1.0>0 JUN 3>1.0 JUL 2>1.0

What's with WN cutting ATL-SEA completely for only 1 month? It seems that WN is cutting SEA flights across the board some in May - ATL, BWI, OAK, SLC, MKE, LAS

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-26 10:37:23 and read 11130 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL JFK-KEF MAY 0.3>0 JUN 1.0>0.7 JUL 1.0>0.9

This route always does horrible. Does Icelandair have service to JFK?

Double daily in the Summer and single in Winter. DL probably thought they'd push FI out easily and eliminate a pricing problem. Not working out so far.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL MEM-LAX FEB 2.0>1.4 MAR 3>1.3 APR 3>1.4 MAY 3>1.4 JUN 3>1.6 JUL 3>1.7
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL MEM-SEA JUN 0.7>0 JUL 1.0>0
*DL MEM-SFO JUL 0.8>0

Jeeez.....two Asian gateways slashed and one down to the bare minimum. I wonder if AS will come into MEM at all...

AS in MEM? That's not planned is it? I'd be shocked.

Quoting rgreenftm (Reply 10):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
WN ATL-SEA MAY 1.0>0 JUN 3>1.0 JUL 2>1.0

What's with WN cutting ATL-SEA completely for only 1 month? It seems that WN is cutting SEA flights across the board some in May - ATL, BWI, OAK, SLC, MKE, LAS

WN is just cutting ATL right and left.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-26 10:48:44 and read 11045 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
LA MHC-PMC MAR 0.1>0.6

I do not know why this route continues to pop up in this thread. MHC-PMC is a domestic route in Chile.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-11-26 10:53:52 and read 11019 times.

NK isn't doing so well in DFW
I predict that ATL will rue the day WN bought FL.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-11-26 10:56:54 and read 10982 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
AS in MEM? That's not planned is it? I'd be shocked.

MEM wouldn't be first on my list of cities that I expect AS to expand to next. However, MCI and SAT weren't either, so stranger things have happened.

Any AS people know if MEM is anywhere in AS's sights?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2012-11-26 10:58:59 and read 10972 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):
I predict that ATL will rue the day WN bought FL.

I know the folks at the DL Headquarters couldn't be more happier about the FL acquisition. More airplanes and a slash of competition at your fortress. What a deal.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: ChrisNH
Posted 2012-11-26 11:14:07 and read 10825 times.

WN LAS-MHT is coming back, not leaving. It's seasonal, though.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: sdoyon
Posted 2012-11-26 11:22:37 and read 10751 times.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 16):
WN LAS-MHT is coming back, not leaving. It's seasonal, though.

I believe it comes back June 1st, which is why it shows up as 0 for the month of May.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: beechtobus
Posted 2012-11-26 11:47:58 and read 10592 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):

"NK isn't doing so well in DFW"

How do you figure that NK isn't doing well DFW? TLC and PDX go down to seasonal, not operating starting in Jaunary '13 but returning in april of '13. LAS and ATL each get an additional daily frequency (LAS in Jan, ATL in FEB). That looks like no loss of frequency FEB-APR and net addition of 2 flights when TLC and PDX return in April. An overall addition of flights seem to indicate that they are doing pretty good.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2012-11-26 11:53:20 and read 10554 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
B6 JFK-BGI MAR 1.0>0.7
B6 JFK-LIR APR 1.0>0.8

B6 not the only one struggling in LIR lately....CM is too. There was a rush of capacity into LIR (including existing carriers increasing frequencies) and the market just cannot absorb it. Yields are being trashed. I predict you will see lots of cuts at LIR until demand catches up.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*UA EWR-BZE MAY 0>0.1 JUN 0>0.2 JUL 0>0.1

Finally, someone wakes up and sees that there is some decent VFR on NYC-BZE (esp during the summer) . DL has been mining it (via ATL). B6 has been ignoring it. UA is going to give it a shot. I predict that it will do well if UA can convince the hoards of Belizeans living in Queens. Brooklyn and Long Island that they should take the train over to EWR.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 15):
I know the folks at the DL Headquarters couldn't be more happier about the FL acquisition. More airplanes and a slash of competition at your fortress. What a deal.
Maybe there was a handshake and a wink?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-26 11:56:44 and read 10533 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 12):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
LA MHC-PMC MAR 0.1>0.6

I do not know why this route continues to pop up in this thread. MHC-PMC is a domestic route in Chile.

One of the cities must be marked as a U.S. city. Nothing I can do about it as it's not something I can alter.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):

NK isn't doing so well in DFW

I wouldn't say that. Compared to all the stuff they've added and cut, DFW has moved backward pretty infrequently. They also backfilled the two cut departures with two other flights. I think they are committed to DFW. Given the company's overall results and their shrinking in FLL, it would imply DFW is doing pretty well.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):
I predict that ATL will rue the day WN bought FL.

Easy prediction. I'm sure they do already.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 15):
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):
I predict that ATL will rue the day WN bought FL.

I know the folks at the DL Headquarters couldn't be more happier about the FL acquisition. More airplanes and a slash of competition at your fortress. What a deal.

I'll keep saying this. The end results will be the same as if DL had bought FL and been forced to shed some gates in ATL to WN by DOJ. That's how much of a win this was for DL. WN just gifted them hundreds of millions of dollars and a whole fleet of airplanes. WN doesn't look too smart in all of that.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Kcrwflyer
Posted 2012-11-26 12:02:25 and read 10492 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Wow, Delta must be happy. The "hub" is disintegrating.

DL planning are probably doing cart wheels and back flips, summersaults..etc. Personally, I think they should do a champagne toast at every WN schedule release until the hub is officially gone.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):
NK isn't doing so well in DFW

Are you basing that statement on all of the rapid growth there?

Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
I'll keep saying this. The end results will be the same as if DL had bought FL and been forced to shed some gates in ATL to WN by DOJ. That's how much of a win this was for DL. WN just gifted them hundreds of millions of dollars and a whole fleet of airplanes. WN doesn't look too smart in all of that.

  

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-26 12:10:06 and read 10451 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 15):
I know the folks at the DL Headquarters couldn't be more happier about the FL acquisition. More airplanes and a slash of competition at your fortress. What a deal.
Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
WN is just cutting ATL right and left.
Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
That's how much of a win this was for DL. WN just gifted them hundreds of millions of dollars and a whole fleet of airplanes. WN doesn't look too smart in all of that.

I think you all need to slow down and wait. WN is doing something very difficult and it takes time. We are seeing many cuts in ATL right now but none of you know what the future for WN in ATL will bring. When all of this is done WN could be just as large as FL was in ATL if not larger just serving it differently. Many of you are calling this merger a failure, its not done, you are way to early to call it a failure.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: clrd4t8koff
Posted 2012-11-26 12:26:03 and read 10355 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
UA DEN-BOS MAY 4>3

This route consistently seems to go back and forth between 3 and 4 flights a day. I took this route last year when flying BOS-LAS and during May of 2012 it was at 4x day, now May 2013 it's down to 3. Does UA struggle on the route?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-26 12:26:10 and read 10355 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 22):
When all of this is done WN could be just as large as FL was in ATL if not larger just serving it differently.

Doubtful--FL was bigger in ATL in terms of departures than just about any WN hub, with the exception of LAS where it clearly dominates. FL was able to do that on a cost advantage, which it will no longer have once it is WN.

Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
Given the company's overall results and their shrinking in FLL, it would imply DFW is doing pretty well.

  

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2012-11-26 12:34:04 and read 10638 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 8):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):DL SLC-YVR APR 1.6>1.8 MAY 1.5>1.8
DL SLC-YYC JAN 1.8>1.7
DL loves to tweek these routes so often its rediculous

Those are such minor changes in the grand scheme of everything. DL tweaks their capacity and tailors their schedule down the to the day of the week. All this means is they may be flying one flight daily and the second flight 5x per week.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
Jeeez.....two Asian gateways slashed and one down to the bare minimum. I wonder if AS will come into MEM at all...

MEM still has very easily to access to Asia over DTW, MSP, and ATL.
MEM likely doesn't even break the top 40 markets for traffic to Asia in the first place.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):
MEM wouldn't be first on my list of cities that I expect AS to expand to next. However, MCI and SAT weren't either, so stranger things have happened.

Any AS people know if MEM is anywhere in AS's sights?

I would find it extremely unlikely for AS to even be considering MEM. MEM is not a big market at all. You would be more likely to see AS in a market like RIC or JAX instead of MEM. If MEM did not have a legacy hub from days gone by, it would barely ever get a mention on A.net except for all the Fed-Ex planes.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL ISN-MSP MAR 2>3 APR 2>3 MAY 2>3 JUN 2>3 JUL 2.0>3

The new route to the DL network must be doing well with the oil-related traffic to get a 3rd flight for next spring.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-26 12:36:45 and read 10583 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
AS in MEM? That's not planned is it? I'd be shocked.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):
MEM wouldn't be first on my list of cities that I expect AS to expand to next. However, MCI and SAT weren't either, so stranger things have happened.

Agreed, I don't see it either, but it seems like SEA would be a lucritive market for MEM. I mean, besides LAX, how are these people going to get to Asia or the west coast?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: redzeppelin
Posted 2012-11-26 12:41:59 and read 10753 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26):
Agreed, I don't see it either, but it seems like SEA would be a lucritive market for MEM. I mean, besides LAX, how are these people going to get to Asia or the west coast?

West coast via SLC, Asia via MSP, DTW or maybe ATL or JFK. The same way that people in most spoke markets get to those get to those destinations. The GC distance for MEM-MSP-NRT is only 11 miles more than MEM-SEA-NRT.

[Edited 2012-11-26 12:45:49]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MasseyBrown
Posted 2012-11-26 12:47:38 and read 10655 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*UA CLE-PWM MAY 0>0.7 JUN 0>0.9 JUL 0>1.0

This has been seasonal service for a number of years. The *surprise would be if UA didn't do it.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2012-11-26 12:55:04 and read 10630 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26):
Agreed, I don't see it either, but it seems like SEA would be a lucritive market for MEM. I mean, besides LAX, how are these people going to get to Asia or the west coast?
Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 27):
West coast via SLC, Asia via MSP, DTW or maybe ATL or JFK. The same way that people in most spoke markets get to those get to those destinations. The GC distance for MEM-MSP-NRT is only 11 miles more than MEM-SEA-NRT.

Exactly.

MEM is no different and in fact has less O&D service than many much larger airports that do not have service to Asia or more than a few flights to LAX (if any).

Cities like BDL, ORF, BUF, PVD, and even places like MCI, CMH, JAX, SAT, etc.

Connections over hubs, as most cities have good one-connection service to every major west-coast destination and Asian market.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: tommy767
Posted 2012-11-26 12:59:16 and read 10571 times.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 23):
This route consistently seems to go back and forth between 3 and 4 flights a day. I took this route last year when flying BOS-LAS and during May of 2012 it was at 4x day, now May 2013 it's down to 3. Does UA struggle on the route?

Nah it's all part of the merger. There isn't as much connecting traffic needed to go into DEN when it seems like UA likes to filter BOS pax via EWR. I've seen BOS-DEN go as low as 2x daily this past fall. The frequency cuts at BOS have been to DEN and ORD. BOS to EWR, IAH, CLE, SFO, IAD seem unaffected.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-26 13:03:32 and read 10552 times.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 21):
DL planning are probably doing cart wheels and back flips, summersaults..etc. Personally, I think they should do a champagne toast at every WN schedule release until the hub is officially gone.

No doubt. They should cater the Thursday night party on WN's HQ party deck in perpetuity.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 22):
We are seeing many cuts in ATL right now but none of you know what the future for WN in ATL will bring.
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 22):
When all of this is done WN could be just as large as FL was in ATL if not larger just serving it differently.

Well, I think most of the planners at WN will tell you that ATL will be smaller when the smoke clears after you get a beer or two in them. There is no plan for expansion there. It's more a question that what can survive without a hub. Cutting the frequency on ATL-LGA is huge in my mind because it says that not even the major markets are untouchable.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 22):
Many of you are calling this merger a failure, its not done, you are way to early to call it a failure.

I never said a failure. I said it is a lot better for DL than WN. That's pretty inescapable. WN's goal was primarily to eliminate a loose cannon competitor with lower costs than they had. They accomplished that, but that's exactly why I have said this was the worst merger for the consumer.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
Doubtful--FL was bigger in ATL in terms of departures than just about any WN hub, with the exception of LAS where it clearly dominates. FL was able to do that on a cost advantage, which it will no longer have once it is WN.

I expect WN will have 80 flights when it is all said and done. To do more than that they will need to essentially bank the flights to create connections. They may be forced into that. They do it to some extent in DEN.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 25):
I would find it extremely unlikely for AS to even be considering MEM.

Agreed

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-26 13:04:47 and read 10548 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
Doubtful--FL was bigger in ATL in terms of departures than just about any WN hub, with the exception of LAS where it clearly dominates. FL was able to do that on a cost advantage, which it will no longer have once it is WN.
LAS, MDW and BWI are all larger then ATL ever was at FL and continue to grow.

Quoting enilria (Reply 31):
Cutting the frequency on ATL-LGA is huge in my mind because it says that not even the major markets are untouchable.

This frequency cut or any on a major route is not a huge surprise nor a huge deal. They have said multiple times they want to get more O&D and less connecting passengers. That is all this is.

Quoting enilria (Reply 31):
I expect WN will have 80 flights when it is all said and done.

I expect more of 150-175. There are so many destinations they can and probably plan on adding, SAN, ABQ, OAK, SLC, SAT and SNA. There are also a lot of smaller opportunities if they choose to go for some such as ALB, OKC, LIT, PVD, BDL, MHT. So decrease some frequencies and get rid of about 3 more destinations then add even a few of these cities and you are easily at 150.

[Edited 2012-11-26 13:15:20]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: N766UA
Posted 2012-11-26 13:05:56 and read 10535 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*UA CLE-PWM MAY 0>0.7 JUN 0>0.9 JUL 0>1.0

When did Portland get cut?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-11-26 13:23:27 and read 10419 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 32):
LAS, MDW and BWI are all larger then ATL ever was at FL and continue to grow.

Incorrect. About 4-5 years ago FL was close to 250 departures/weekday at ATL. That is certainly larger than WN in LAS and BWI and was at the time at least larger than WN in MDW, though not now.

Quoting enilria (Reply 31):
I expect WN will have 80 flights when it is all said and done. To do more than that they will need to essentially bank the flights to create connections. They may be forced into that. They do it to some extent in DEN.

I think in addition to the current markets, WN will fly from ATL to:
TPA
FLL
MSY
STL
MCI
DAL
SAT
LGA
DCA

And that is about it. Hope Im wrong

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 15):
I know the folks at the DL Headquarters couldn't be more happier about the FL acquisition. More airplanes and a slash of competition at your fortress. What a deal.

You bet.

Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):
I predict that ATL will rue the day WN bought FL.

Easy prediction. I'm sure they do already.

I dont think anyone in ATL in the city or airport is sharp enough to figure out that is going to happen just yet.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 22):
When all of this is done WN could be just as large as FL was in ATL if not larger just serving it differently.

I use to think that WN might be at 250-300 flights per day, but it isnt going to happen. WN's cost structure is simply too high to make a profit off the marginal connecting passenger in ATL. So they will go for locals only. Problem is DL has the local market and DL doesnt exactly underserve the markets theyre in. In short WN's costs are too high to operate a 110 seat airplane or a hub with 70% connecting traffic.

WN got rid of a potential competitor and FL shareholders made out, but WN hasnt handled this merger well at all.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-26 13:25:35 and read 10395 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 32):
LAS, MDW and BWI are all larger then ATL ever was at FL and continue to grow.

MDW yes, BWI no; I'm not sure any of them are consistently growing either.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: FL787
Posted 2012-11-26 13:26:35 and read 10403 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 32):
LAS, MDW and BWI are all larger then ATL ever was at FL and continue to grow.

Not true. FL at ATL got as high as ~270 flights which is larger than any WN city ever has been. At the time of the merger only MDW and LAS were larger than FL/ATL in terms of flights.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: sdoyon
Posted 2012-11-26 13:31:43 and read 10373 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 34):
I use to think that WN might be at 250-300 flights per day

From day 1 they said there were going to wind-down ATL by at least 13%.

I think ATL will be around STL-sized: 100. Do I have any evidence? Not a shred. Just playing the a.net game.

WN clearly can't utilize ATL like FL could. Is that a problem? Maybe. Looking at the other side of the coin, could DL be as effictive as WN in STL or SAN?

It's all a $$$ game, folks. I'd rather WN keep a low profile in ATL and not bleed money over going all-in against DL and losing.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-26 13:35:27 and read 10348 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 32):
LAS, MDW and BWI are all larger then ATL ever was at FL and continue to grow.

Alright, let me rephrase this. LAS, MDW and BWI are all larger then ATL was at FL at the time the acquisition was announced and yes, MDW and BWI continue to grow, LAS is relatively flat.

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 37):
It's all a $$$ game, folks. I'd rather WN keep a low profile in ATL and not bleed money over going all-in against DL and losing.

This is a very smart point. If we look at AirTran, they might have been serving ATL very well but they must have been hurting in ATL because they moved most if not all of their focus from ATL to MCO, BWI and MKE.

[Edited 2012-11-26 13:38:55]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: OzarkD9S
Posted 2012-11-26 15:00:33 and read 9737 times.

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 37):


From day 1 they said there were going to wind-down ATL by at least 13%.I think ATL will be around STL-sized: 100. Do I have any evidence? Not a shred. Just playing the a.net game. WN clearly can't utilize ATL like FL could. Is that a problem? Maybe. Looking at the other side of the coin, could DL be as effictive as WN in STL or SAN?

WN doesn't need ATL to the extent FL did. WN's been overflying ATL very successfully until very recently. ATL will be an important station for WN, but it's not make or break. The overflying to Florida alone on WN negates any real need for an ATL "hub" on the WN side. It'll probably morph into a decent sized jumping off point to the Caribbean for WN and a rolling connection station.

Those 717's are being replaced by larger aircraft as well so the net loss of seats when all is said and done will probably be minor, with more destinations available to ATL based travelers and the connections they do manage to muster up.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-26 15:19:34 and read 9627 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 38):
LAS, MDW and BWI are all larger then ATL was at FL at the time the acquisition was announced and yes

In SEP10 when the acquisition was announced WN had 160+/- daily deps at BWI, while FL had 200+/- in ATL.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 38):
MDW and BWI continue to grow, LAS is relatively flat.

Combined WN/FL BWI is down about 10 daily deps from its recent 2011 peak, LAS is down about 30 daily deps from its 2008 peak; MDW is pretty flat.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: RWA380
Posted 2012-11-26 15:54:25 and read 9373 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
K5 EAT-YKM DEC 1.5>0.7 JAN 1.6>0 FEB 1.6>0 MAR 1.5>0 APR 1.6>0 MAY 1.6>0 JUN 1.5>0 JUL 1.6>0
K5 PDX-YKM DEC 1.5>0.7 JAN 1.6>0 FEB 1.6>0 MAR 1.5>0 APR 1.6>0 MAY 1.6>0 JUN 1.5>0 JUL 1.6>0

Anyone here surprised? I am so amazed that K5 is still operating anything here at PDX, wonder how long PDT stays?

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*NK DFW-PDX JAN 1.0>0.2 FEB 1.0>0 MAR 1.0>0 APR 1.0>0.2
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
WN BOI-PDX MAY 1.9>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2.0>0
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
WN GEG-PDX MAY 2>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2.0>0
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
WN SEA-SLC MAY 3>2
Quoting rgreenftm (Reply 10):
What's with WN cutting ATL-SEA completely for only 1 month? It seems that WN is cutting SEA flights across the board some in May - ATL, BWI, OAK, SLC, MKE, LAS

And for those who say that other carriers can compete here in the Northwest with AS/QX, here are some indications otherwise. WN sure made a go of it, and although NK seems to be a seasonal reduction, it wouldn't be reduced if it were a big smashing success. I know many who have tried NK up here, myself included, all of us said next time take AS.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2012-11-26 15:59:41 and read 9326 times.

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 39):
Those 717's are being replaced by larger aircraft as well so the net loss of seats when all is said and done will probably be minor, with more destinations available to ATL based travelers and the connections they do manage to muster up.

More destinations, highly arguable. Certainly not more nonstop destinations. And many of the former FL destinations are in the process of being closed. ATL is not hurting for service to unserved markets - DL already serves more markets nonstop from just ATL than WN has in its entire network.

Even without the 717 deal, DL comes out a big winner in ATL.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: mtnwest1979
Posted 2012-11-26 16:15:45 and read 9205 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 41):
Anyone here surprised? I am so amazed that K5 is still operating anything here at PDX, wonder how long PDT stays?

Just as long as the EAS money keeps coming in.

If the OTH and PDT routes end for whatever reason, be kind of a misnomer for the airline who's closest airport to the sea would be Athens,GA lol.

[Edited 2012-11-26 16:16:07]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-11-26 16:26:32 and read 9101 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 31):
Cutting the frequency on ATL-LGA is huge in my mind because it says that not even the major markets are untouchable.

They'll probably make better use of the LGA slots by spreading out the departures to more destinations than by having so many to ATL. Certainly ATL is taking a hit, though.

-Dave

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2012-11-26 17:04:13 and read 8864 times.

ATL-LGA is currently all 717 for FL. A drop to 6x 737s is not a large drop in capacity, especially if any 738s are involved.

Anyway, FL is not making money in ATL. The hub network in ATL is all about volume for DL, not yield. For WN, ATL will be more about O&D than FL was. That's the area where DL has to be concerned with WN's entrance. And the winners and losers will be determined over the long run, not in 2013.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-26 17:20:39 and read 8728 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 45):
And the winners and losers will be determined over the long run, not in 2013.

Thank You, I completely agree, 100%.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 44):
They'll probably make better use of the LGA slots by spreading out the departures to more destinations than by having so many to ATL.

Absolutely.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
In SEP10 when the acquisition was announced WN had 160+/- daily deps at BWI, while FL had 200+/- in ATL.

I am comparing the solo FL ATL to the current SWA/FL because with WN it is restructuring and we are talking FL alone anyway.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
Combined WN/FL BWI is down about 10 daily deps from its recent 2011 peak, LAS is down about 30 daily deps from its 2008 peak; MDW is pretty flat.

Do you have a source, because BWI is having record passengers flying in and out of BWI.... I don't see DL adding but I sure see WN/FL adding, MDW is at monumental flights, how is that flat?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-11-26 17:47:47 and read 8520 times.

Interesting to see the various takes on WN's plans for ATL. We'll see how it plays out. It is apparent many making the comments are on the outside.  

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-26 18:05:47 and read 8429 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 32):
This frequency cut or any on a major route is not a huge surprise nor a huge deal. They have said multiple times they want to get more O&D and less connecting passengers. That is all this is.

That's why cutting LGA is very interesting. It's a major O&D.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 32):
I expect more of 150-175. There are so many destinations they can and probably plan on adding, SAN, ABQ, OAK, SLC, SAT and SNA.

Of those I'm betting you only see SAT and seasonal SAN.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 32):
There are also a lot of smaller opportunities if they choose to go for some such as ALB, OKC, LIT, PVD, BDL, MHT.

I'm betting none of those get added.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 34):
I dont think anyone in ATL in the city or airport is sharp enough to figure out that is going to happen just yet.

Of course, there is really nothing ATL could do to stop it.

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 37):

WN clearly can't utilize ATL like FL could...I'd rather WN keep a low profile in ATL and not bleed money over going all-in against DL and losing.
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 38):
If we look at AirTran, they might have been serving ATL very well but they must have been hurting in ATL because they moved most if not all of their focus from ATL to MCO, BWI and MKE.

AirTran was certainly breaking even or slightly worse in ATL and they only achieved that by trashing Florida fares to fill up on connects. WN won't do that and without out all the stimulus, the trickle down is that all the little markets won't work. There is not enough local market to have 10 or 12 ATL-SDF flights and have it be locally supported.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 41):

And for those who say that other carriers can compete here in the Northwest with AS/QX,

I think AS wins because they are the only carrier with hubs up there. The local market is very seasonal and without a hub to survive Winter the other guys die off.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 44):
Quoting enilria (Reply 31):
Cutting the frequency on ATL-LGA is huge in my mind because it says that not even the major markets are untouchable.

They'll probably make better use of the LGA slots by spreading out the departures to more destinations than by having so many to ATL. Certainly ATL is taking a hit, though.

Agreed, but you make the same decision over and over again that ICT works better to DAL and FNT works better to BWI and some of the LGA slots work better to HOU and pretty soon ATL has 80 flights. The question is not whether they are properly optimizing, the question is whether they should have bought FL. I think if the goal was only to eliminate them then I guess they should have, but that is something they would never admit.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 47):
Interesting to see the various takes on WN's plans for ATL. We'll see how it plays out. It is apparent many making the comments are on the outside.

There are probably only about 8 people at WN who really know where this is going...and frankly, I think it is evolving quickly. I don't think they lied when they said they intended to grow ATL. I think they are learning that their model doesn't work in the face of the world's largest hub. They didn't even succeed in PHL. DEN was only because loyalty was split between carriers. How many other times have they gone into somebody else's mega-hub and won?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Atrude777
Posted 2012-11-26 18:36:34 and read 8245 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 48):
How many other times have they gone into somebody else's mega-hub and won?

STL..TWA.

WN entered in 1985 in the busiest of when TWA was expanding in STL with Ozark Merger. Look who is around in STL still...TWA is gone, AA left..and WN is slowly building more then ever.

For years WN had stayed away from big major hubs mostly due to competition or slow taxi times, STL and LAX back then was the big exception. Now WN is entering everything they can and trying, they will lose some, PHL, and win some, STL and DEN. ATL is probably still too early, and we could argue, if WN intended to make it a hub and couldn't against DL it is a loss for sure. But if WN intended to reduce it by 13% as they have said, it isn't losing if that was their intention in the first place.

You have to credit WN for trying at least, any airline that tries is admirable because you win some, and you lose some, you won't find out if you sit idle.

However I don't think WN's intention of going into "Hubs" was to win in the sense people are thinking. There intention was to go into the hubs, take the OD folks WN thrives on and make it work for them, other airline's hub be damned.

There is going to be a small list of hubs WN won because back then WN didn't do hubs in the sense of doing banks, nor was it their intention to take over a hub, WN didn't have the planes and the capacity in the world to do just that.

But I suppose, STL-TWA, LAS-AWA, LAX--Hmmh? BWI-US, MCO-DL/Comair, there are many cities on this list where they were hubs for other airlines, and by now, WN is still there, and the airline doesn't exist or cut way back, is that a win in your eyes?

Alex

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-26 18:38:37 and read 8195 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 48):
and frankly, I think it is evolving quickly.

No, its not.

Quoting enilria (Reply 48):
their model doesn't work in the face of the world's largest hub.

You can not base this on what they are doing now because they are just starting. Unless you are high in the network planning department at SWA you can't possibly say this. No person can say this to you either unless its a VP or Gary Kelly. It has yet to be seen anyway.

Quoting enilria (Reply 48):
and pretty soon ATL has 80 flights.

That would be true if they were cutting almost everywhere but how many more cities do they have to convert (Domestic), 4. Even if you remove in 3 or 4 more cities, it doesn't get to 80. And how much more frequency can they cut, not much. You are pretty much reaching the bottom of cuts so we are looking at what, 130-150 flights (don't know exactly) plus the current WN flights. Even if they cut 20 more flights your at 110-130. I don't know if you realize how many flights would have to be cut for it to get down to 80 flights, plus where are they going to add service with all of these extra planes? You only have 4 more conversions, the rest are already served or will be served by WN so now your just adding more flights in current SWA cities.

Quoting enilria (Reply 48):
I'm betting none of those get added.
Quoting enilria (Reply 48):
Of those I'm betting you only see SAT and seasonal SAN.

I can't wait till I win that bet.  

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: wnflyguy
Posted 2012-11-26 18:47:46 and read 8158 times.

WN acquired FL to kill off LCC competition on the east coast PERIOD.
ATL , international flying and a dozen new markets are just the benefits.
Anyone that thought this acquisition was about getting a HUB in ATL or 717's.
Doesn't under business.
Every merger in aviation history 90% has been about killing off competition and market share.
Once the BS PR train about job growth and bigger better airline words used sale the deal dies down.
The chopping begins and economics gets the blame.
Once this round of mergers are done next will be the dismantling of F9 and AMR.
In the end shareholders and CEOs make out and working stuffs lose.
My beloved WN just after 40+ yrs evolved into a legacy carrier.
And now it's gotten high cost which has killed the maverick model.
Weather the lifetime employees like or not I see pay reductions in the future.
You can only stream line so much before there's nothing left.
FL being killed off by WN maybe gave I think WN 2 or 3 yrs xtra shelf life before it's cost cutting time.
But I still hope the what ever it takes warrior spirit has some maverick left in it.
Back to ATL I see WN ending up with about 150 flights total.
wnfg  

[Edited 2012-11-26 19:05:37]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: iowaman
Posted 2012-11-26 18:52:13 and read 8077 times.

As far as ATL goes I'm sure it will always have the core stations connected to it. Routes like ATL-SFO/SEA tie up vaiuable aircraft and aren't strong WN originating stations so we'll see if they last. SDF and ORF are cities WN has a sizeable market share but smaller O&D and is interesting to watch as well.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
LAS is down about 30 daily deps from its 2008 peak; MDW is pretty flat.

I'm sure DEN has taken a little of the connecting load off LAS. There are also quite a few -800's that rotate through there.

Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
WN OMA-PHX JUN 2>1.2 JUL 2>1.1

This is the lowest WN has been in a long time if ever on this route. It was 2x daily back in 2000 and ended up 3x daily sometime around 2008. It was recently cut back to 2x and now 1x. DEN is probably skimming off a few connecting passengers that use to go through PHX to places like SAN and LAX.

Quoting steex (Reply 5):
Anyone have any info about this? I've been doing some searching and can't seem to find any news about one of the Pacific Wings carriers taking over these routes from Air Choice One (which operates them under the 3E/Weber code).
Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 6):
Such agreements are difficult for small airlines to establish with large carriers, Storz said, and he has experienced challenges trying to do so over the past few years. He said he was essentially leasing the access through an agreement with Hawaii-based Pacific Wings Holdings."

So maybe Air Choice One flights are simply operating under Pacific Wings Holdings' code?

FWIW I saw a billboard on the Avenue of the Saints on southbound 218 in southern Iowa. They advertised as Air Choice One and service from BRL to "St. Louis Lambert" and "Chicago O'Hare" prominently.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-26 18:54:14 and read 8060 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 46):
I am comparing the solo FL ATL to the current SWA/FL because with WN it is restructuring and we are talking FL alone anyway.

You lost me...you're comparing past FL ATL departures to past WN/FL? Regardless the point is WN has very few hubs that are larger in departures than FL was at ATL, about 200 daily departures, and those include LAS and MDW only, and BWI if you include FL.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 46):

Do you have a source, because BWI is having record passengers flying in and out of BWI.... I don't see DL adding but I sure see WN/FL adding, MDW is at monumental flights, how is that flat?

Same source as the beginning of this thread: OAG. WN hasn't added departures in BWI but I imagine its load factor is way up just as it is systemwide, which would mean way more passengers on the same seats.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 45):
For WN, ATL will be more about O&D than FL was.

I'm not sure how anyone can think WN has the luxury to make that choice? I just don't see what passenger in ATL says to themselves "if *only* there was a carrier without first class, seat assignments, and IFE that could take me to one tenth the nonstop destinations that DL can, for the same price" 
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 49):

But I suppose, STL-TWA, LAS-AWA, LAX--Hmmh? BWI-US, MCO-DL/Comair

This pattern would necessitate DL vacating ATL for it to work, and that's unlikely to say the least.

Quoting enilria (Reply 48):
They didn't even succeed in PHL

   Not much going on with WN in DL's other hubs either. SLC hasn't budged in years. MSP is a mixed bag. DTW is barely there.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-26 18:57:21 and read 8032 times.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 51):
Back to ATL I see WN ending up with about 150 flights total.

I think that is a fair estimate.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 51):
My beloved WN just after 40+ yrs evolved into a legacy carrier.

I agree, though that is not necessarily bad.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 51):
Weather the lifetime employees like or not I see pay reductions in the future.
Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 51):
FL being killed off by WN maybe gave I think WN 2 or 3 yrs xtra shelf life before it's cost cutting time.

Lets see how next year goes with the natural employee count reduction. I don't see the average pay cuts in WN's future right now but I could see voluntary retirements with new hires getting paid less. Not sure what that is considered as.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 53):
and IFE

I don't think is fair to say anymore. They offer WiFi and TV via your personal device. So you get the TV aspect and WiFi, what other large IFE does any other (non luxury) airline offer (i.e DL, UA, US, AA, AS)? By large that negates Mood Lighting, XM Radio, Seat to Seat chatting etc...

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 53):
seat assignments

I personally have not met one person that cares though I know that some people care one way or another. Elites and Business Select get to board early, everyone else later.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 53):
first class

They have Business Select, doesn't that count.   I could see in the next few years WN getting an extra legroom type seat for the Business Select passengers though.

[Edited 2012-11-26 19:07:45]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-26 19:06:51 and read 7982 times.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 25):
MEM still has very easily to access to Asia over DTW, MSP, and ATL.
Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 27):
West coast via SLC, Asia via MSP, DTW or maybe ATL or JFK. The same way that people in most spoke markets get to those get to those destinations. The GC distance for MEM-MSP-NRT is only 11 miles more than MEM-SEA-NRT.

I forgot about DTW but isn't there more selection at LAX and SEA, or am I mistaken?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: mfe777
Posted 2012-11-26 19:23:59 and read 7926 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AM LRD-MTY JAN 0>1.0 FEB 0>1.0 MAR 0>1.0 APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0

AeroMexico adds another TX border city, complementing their MTY-Brownsville service a few hours down the river. Still surprised they have not added McAllen considering it is a larger metro area than either BRO or LRD, much more of a shopping destination for Mexican Nationals than either, and home to many second homes of Mexican nationals. Practically whole subdivisions are being built in the McAllen area full of expensive second homes for Mexican Nationals seeking safety. Maybe we will see a MTY-MFE route open soon?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-26 19:47:30 and read 7825 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 54):
They offer WiFi and TV via your personal device

Regardless, WN doesn't have an advantage on DL in terms of product. And any current or likely WN market from ATL is already overserved by DL by the hub's nature, so I'm not sure how anyone can think WN can 'go after' more local demand in ATL--they'll have to go after it on price, as FL was doing, and DL will just match all day.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-11-26 20:08:33 and read 7726 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 57):
Regardless, WN doesn't have an advantage on DL in terms of product

Well if youre talking about inflight entertainment, I dont think that is an issue when choosing a carrier for the vast majority of pax. If it was, AS would be a huge failure on flights longer than 2 hours. WN is ontime, doesnt lose bags and doest charge for bags. The lack of IFE and F class isnt an issue. IF it was WN would never have been able to grow in to cities like Chicago.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Sevensixtyseven
Posted 2012-11-26 20:09:59 and read 7747 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
WN ABQ-ELP MAY 1.8>0 JUN 1.8>0 JUL 1.9>0
WN ABQ-STL MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0
WN ABQ-TUS MAY 2.0>1.0 JUN 2>0.0 JUL 2>0

What????
I know ELP was going away, STL was seasonal as it was..but TUS? I would have expected that TUS-ABQ-XXX made sense, to DAL and other stations in Texas, and vice versa. Is this a problem on ABQ's end or TUS' end, or both? This cut will make TUS go down to 5 total destinations..MDW, DEN, SAN, LAX, and LAS..

Also..could we ever see WN start PHX-TUS? The only airline on the route is US...and they charge quite a bit for nonstops..

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: ocracoke
Posted 2012-11-26 23:21:51 and read 7327 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
*DL JFK-KEF MAY 0.3>0 JUN 1.0>0.7 JUL 1.0>0.9

This route always does horrible. Does Icelandair have service to JFK?

I dont know how you can say this summer seasonal route always does horrible, when it has only been flown for what, 1 or 2 years now? If DL had been flying with awful loads to KEF since 1983, then yes. But after 1 or 2 years? Always?


Really? 
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 22):
When all of this is done WN could be just as large as FL was in ATL if not larger just serving it differently. Many of you are calling this merger a failure, its not done, you are way to early to call it a failure.

Also remember that with the 717 gone, all the smaller ramp spacing marked out for the 717 will have to expand. Where FL could squeeze in X number of 717 planes, I would think that WN will either have to pull out jetways, or leave jetways non-usable, to be able to get the 737 with its 20-24ft longer wingspan in. With fewer parking spots, I don't see how they could surpass what FL was running at their peak, when they were cramming flights through ATL.

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 37):
WN clearly can't utilize ATL like FL could.

  

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 38):
If we look at AirTran, they might have been serving ATL very well but they must have been hurting in ATL because they moved most if not all of their focus from ATL to MCO, BWI and MKE.

And if FL was struggling to make ATL work, with their costs already lower than WN, then WN has a tough uphill battle to get ATL to work profitably for them. Not saying it can't be done, but I doubt we'll see the number of flights that we saw out of FL in years gone past. They'll be flying to their hubs, and to important business destinations out of ATL that have a high O/D. The rest is gone, unless it's the only possible way to connect to the WN network. I can't think of any places like that, though.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: twincommander
Posted 2012-11-27 00:56:27 and read 7209 times.

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 43):
Just as long as the EAS money keeps coming in.

If the OTH and PDT routes end for whatever reason, be kind of a misnomer for the airline who's closest airport to the sea would be Athens,GA lol.

this is exactly it.

piss poor managment that keeps getting government hand outs - what a business strategy.

if you dont think that pac wings or air choice one doesnt do this, you have alot to learn about chincy 4th place wannabe airlines.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2012-11-27 01:59:22 and read 7147 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 57):
Regardless, WN doesn't have an advantage on DL in terms of product.

To me they do.

Really it's a subjective matter. I generally prefer WN over all the legacies both on the ground and in the air.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 57):
so I'm not sure how anyone can think WN can 'go after' more local demand in ATL

Well they can't "go after" it. You don't just add flights and at the snap of your fingers gain market share. O&D shifts occur over time. WN is a near polar opposite to DL in products. FL is close to the same as DL. If the WN model is more of what people want, that will change things naturally.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 57):
they'll have to go after it on price, as FL was doing, and DL will just match all day.

If it gets to the all-out war stage, WN can inflict and resist pain better. For one, ATL is relatively small beans to their network, and WN of course is in a better financial position. And during a fare war, DL can't risk diluting the yields too far on a scale as large at ATL. They have more potential risk.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: OzarkD9S
Posted 2012-11-27 02:04:41 and read 7156 times.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 49):


STL..TWA.

WN entered in 1985 in the busiest of when TWA was expanding in STL with Ozark Merger. Look who is around in STL still...TWA is gone, AA left..and WN is slowly building more then ever.

One could argue: STL...AA. The first big round of cuts AA made to STL were in WN served markets. By then TWA was gone.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 42):


More destinations, highly arguable. Certainly not more nonstop destinations. And many of the former FL destinations are in the process of being closed. ATL is not hurting for service to unserved markets - DL already serves more markets nonstop from just ATL than WN has in its entire network.

More destinations in the WN network than FL's. I didn't mean nonstop from ATL, I probably wasn't too clear on that. But ATL travelers will ultimately have more WN destinations to chose from than FL, but not necessarily nonstop.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: michman
Posted 2012-11-27 04:49:04 and read 6962 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 58):
WN is ontime, doesnt lose bags ...

That may be WN's reputation, but the statistics tell a different story. The latest DOT stats for the past 12 months have DL beating WN in both on-time percentage (87.0 vs 84.8) and mishandled baggage rate per 1,000 pax (2.11 vs. 2.99).

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-27 06:32:55 and read 6742 times.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 49):
Quoting enilria (Reply 48):
How many other times have they gone into somebody else's mega-hub and won?
STL..TWA.

TWA merged with AA. AA closed the hub, not TW. To put some actual data behind your claim, WN had 81 departures per day in Summer 2011 right before the merger. By Winter 2001 WN had shrunk to 51 departures while AA still had nearly 200. WN did not get back to 81 departures until June 2011 and the AA hub closed during 2008.

So, the T100 data shows that WN was actually shrinking in STL by 37% and then grew again after AA shut the hub. So, I don't think there is any basis for your comments.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 50):
Quoting enilria (Reply 48):
and frankly, I think it is evolving quickly.

No, its not.

Pretty strong statement for someone who then says...

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 50):
Quoting enilria (Reply 48):
their model doesn't work in the face of the world's largest hub.

You can not base this on what they are doing now because they are just starting. Unless you are high in the network planning department at SWA you can't possibly say this. No person can say this to you either unless its a VP or Gary Kelly. It has yet to be seen anyway.

The answer is that it is evolving and Gary Kelly said two conference calls ago that "much more change is coming in the AirTran network than what you have seen already". "Change" regarding network clearly means different routes. Since everything was flying to ATL/BWI/MCO pretty much at the point he said that and they have really cut no ongoing stations from BWI or MCO, it pretty clearly means that a lot more FL routes from ATL will be cut. The question is whether or how many will be replaced with new routes. So far, nothing has been added outside the initial flurry of "warm and fuzzy everything is OK" merger announcements. I'm still waiting to see T100 on ORF/SDF. I hear they are very poor.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 50):
That would be true if they were cutting almost everywhere but how many more cities do they have to convert (Domestic),

There are 47 AirTran stations served from ATL in the most recent schedule update. That's something like 75% of the original number pre-merger. The balance are station closures. Pretty much nothing has been fully converted to WN from ATL except a few West markets.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 50):
You are pretty much reaching the bottom of cuts so we are looking at what

Completely not the case. There are 47 routes still not rationalized.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 50):
plus where are they going to add service with all of these extra planes?

Good question. I still say if you look at the fleet numbers with the existing order book and all the 737-500s and 717s leaving, there is clearly an ASM reduction coming. If they don't order aircraft it is inevitable. Frankly, I expect a slow and quiet shrink.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 50):
You only have 4 more conversions, the rest are already served or will be served by WN so now your just adding more flights in current SWA cities.

You mean 47 more. The 4 stations don't mean anything. It's the AirTran routes we are talking about. Just because BOS is a WN station, for example, does not necessarily mean it will retain ATL service in the WN network.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 50):
I can't wait till I win that bet.

If I were you I would stay away from Vegas. They are gonna take your mortgage money.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 51):
Anyone that thought this acquisition was about getting a HUB in ATL or 717's.

I said from day 1 the 717s were gone and all I got was "show me a link" and "WN said that was a reason for the merger" and such tripe that merger PR spits out every time two companies get together.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 52):
SDF and ORF are cities WN has a sizeable market share but smaller O&D and is interesting to watch as well.

AGREED   I don't see how you can fly those routes in the face of DL frequency with no hub to provide flow. We'll see soon.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 53):
Quoting enilria (Reply 48):
They didn't even succeed in PHL

   Not much going on with WN in DL's other hubs either. SLC hasn't budged in years. MSP is a mixed bag. DTW is barely there.

Exactly...

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 59):
I know ELP was going away, STL was seasonal as it was..but TUS? I would have expected that TUS-ABQ-XXX made sense,

ABQ is not a "hub" in the WN network. It used to be a focus city of a sort, but non-hubs are disappearing in the legacy-laden future that is WN.

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 60):
Where FL could squeeze in X number of 717 planes, I would think that WN will either have to pull out jetways, or leave jetways non-usable, to be able to get the 737 with its 20-24ft longer wingspan in.

There is a large and probably valid rumor of a gate swap in Atlanta that would see Delta trade for the old FL 717 gates. It would seem that with the delivery stream this could be as long as 18 months away.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-27 06:58:11 and read 6640 times.

Quoting michman (Reply 64):
That may be WN's reputation, but the statistics tell a different story.

Of course, those statistics are misleading in that they do not include numbers such as Expresjet's 81.5 percent on time arrival rate or Skywest's 83.6 percent on time arrival rate (September only; XE combined does not have a 12 month number due to the EV merger). (Incidentally, DL also does much worse than WN in the tarmac delay area, reporting 39 tarmac delays in excess of 2 hours in the November ATCR compared with 4 for WN.)

Similarly, Expressjet and Skywest report much higher mishandled baggage claims than WN or DL; 5.64 and 5.08 per 1,000 passengers respectively for January-September, 2012.

Quoting enilria (Reply 65):
WN did not get back to 81 departures until June 2011 and the AA hub closed during 2008.

A couple of points on this. First, your timeline is wrong. The hub was around - albeit much smaller - until 2010. Second, I don't know that as much of the growth at STL over the past couple of years is as related to AA cuts as people think. Cities like DCA, LGA, BOS and MSP were all new to the WN network and obviously couldn't be added until they were WN cities. Moreover, STL-DCA/LGA/BOS were all added when AA still flew the routes, and IIRC at the time they were added AA flew all three on mainline. There are a few additions that are more closely related to AA - like STL-BNA - but the conventional wisdom that "AA cut so WN added" isn't quite right.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-27 07:04:38 and read 6620 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 66):
The hub was around - albeit much smaller - until 2010.

There was under 100 mainline departures after 2008. There is no official date on when the hub was closed. It was clearly "clos-ing" at that point. The point I am making is valid regardless of the date you say the hub closed. WN shrank when it was posed that they were causing the hub to close.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-27 07:12:16 and read 6584 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
The point I am making is valid regardless of the date you say the hub closed. WN shrank when it was posed that they were causing the hub to close.

No, I agree with your point. The hub closing and what WN was doing were largely independent of each other except that some routes that WN flew were cut earlier than they might otherwise have been. For instance, AA cut STL-SDF, which WN flew, early on but kept STL-IND and STL-BNA until close to the end.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-27 07:18:10 and read 6570 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 58):

Well if youre talking about inflight entertainment, I dont think that is an issue when choosing a carrier for the vast majority of pax. If it was, AS would be a huge failure on flights longer than 2 hours. WN is ontime, doesnt lose bags and doest charge for bags. The lack of IFE and F class isnt an issue. IF it was WN would never have been able to grow in to cities like Chicago.
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 62):

To me they do.

Really it's a subjective matter. I generally prefer WN over all the legacies both on the ground and in the air.

The amenities don't drive many buying decisions; the scope and depth of the network, however, do, and DL beats them 10 to 1 in ATL. WN can only attract ATL passengers on price.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 62):
WN is a near polar opposite to DL in products. FL is close to the same as DL. If the WN model is more of what people want, that will change things naturally.

People chose US over WN in PHL/PIT

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 62):
If it gets to the all-out war stage, WN can inflict and resist pain better.

Can they? DL is more profitable lately and is going to have 10 times as many flights in ATL that WN will have, in a best case scenario for WN.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 62):
DL can't risk diluting the yields too far on a scale as large at ATL. They have more potential risk.

DL can't afford not to; DL is ATL, and ATL is DL. WN is going to have to grow quite a bit and lose a lot of money in the process to get to a point where it can inflict any damage on DL in ATL. These are the same people that added DENLAX and DFWLGA when competitors dipped their toe on their turf; WN is still barely a blip on the radar in MSP. It is a new day--WN is not the force it used to be.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-27 07:27:31 and read 6527 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 69):
WN can only attract ATL passengers on price.

For ATL originating passengers, that's probably true. For passengers originating in cities where WN is a bigger player, I don't know.

But to the larger point, you seem to presuppose that WN can't make money if it competes on price. There are certainly markets in which that is true. I am not so sure that it is true in every market. Certainly, many shorter-haul markets have quite a bit of space where WN can likely undercut what DL wants today and still make money.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 69):
WN is going to have to grow quite a bit and lose a lot of money in the process to get to a point where it can inflict any damage on DL in ATL.

Why would the goal be to inflict damage on DL? I don't think anyone has said that.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: steex
Posted 2012-11-27 07:28:40 and read 6515 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 68):
For instance, AA cut STL-SDF, which WN flew, early on but kept STL-IND and STL-BNA until close to the end.

Very true. There was a period of time where larger regional markets from STL were basically an either/or for service between AA and WN. If I recall, WN at one time had service to CLE, CMH, DTW, LIT, OMA, and SDF without AA on the routes, while AA served BNA, CID, DSM, IND, MKE, MSP, and SGF without competition from WN.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: cessna2
Posted 2012-11-27 07:37:30 and read 6491 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
WN DEN-RDU JUN 1.0>2.0 JUL 1.0>2.0
Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
WN HOU-RDU MAY 1.0>1.7 JUL 1.0>1.7
Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
WN RDU-STL JUN 1.0>1.8 JUL 1.0>1.8

The business community will be happy about this! I guess WN's test of a second daily RDU-DEN route in June proved a good idea. With the discontinuation of RDU-PHL glad to see WN add frequencies to a few connection cities.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-27 07:43:51 and read 6463 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 70):

Why would the goal be to inflict damage on DL? I don't think anyone has said that.

Of course it's not the goal--I don't think WN can grow enough to become problematic for DL in the way it was/is for F9/UA in DEN, for example.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 70):
But to the larger point, you seem to presuppose that WN can't make money if it competes on price

The record is mixed at best, particularly with WN's recent adds in major hubs, as well as NYC/BOS.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-27 07:52:12 and read 6438 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 73):
The record is mixed at best, particularly with WN's recent adds in major hubs, as well as NYC/BOS.

Where is WN having trouble competing ex-NYC or BOS?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-27 08:10:49 and read 6413 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 74):

Where is WN having trouble competing ex-NYC or BOS?

PHL, PIT, IAD, CLE, SLC, PBI, MHT...

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: iowaman
Posted 2012-11-27 08:36:07 and read 6296 times.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 59):
Also..could we ever see WN start PHX-TUS? The only airline on the route is US...and they charge quite a bit for nonstops..

Entirely too short with a non-existent O&D market.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 75):
PHL, PIT, IAD, CLE, SLC, PBI, MHT...

DTW and BOI could also be added to the list.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2012-11-27 08:38:54 and read 6273 times.

Quoting twincommander (Reply 61):
Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 43):
Just as long as the EAS money keeps coming in.

If the OTH and PDT routes end for whatever reason, be kind of a misnomer for the airline who's closest airport to the sea would be Athens,GA lol.

this is exactly it.

piss poor managment that keeps getting government hand outs - what a business strategy.

if you dont think that pac wings or air choice one doesnt do this, you have alot to learn about chincy 4th place wannabe airlines.


I would not lump Air Choice One in with SeaPort. Air Choice One's management has not entered / exited markets the way SeaPort has; they have taken the time to work with the communities they serve to develop new markets. I think Air Choice One has tripled the boardings at Jonesboro since they took over the EAS contract there from SeaPort.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-27 08:42:10 and read 6254 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 75):
PHL, PIT, IAD, CLE, SLC, PBI, MHT...

People (not just you) seem to have this opinion that if WN isn't growing or if they are cutting flights they are automatically in trouble. They are just right sizing in most of these markets. The only city on this list that is actually having trouble is PHL. The rest are simply your opinion.

[Edited 2012-11-27 08:48:50]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-27 08:50:58 and read 6230 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 75):
PHL, PIT, IAD, CLE, SLC, PBI, MHT...

When did WN fly from NYC or BOS to any of those places?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: panamair
Posted 2012-11-27 09:09:45 and read 6159 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL JFK-KEF MAY 0.3>0 JUN 1.0>0.7 JUL 1.0>0.9

This route always does horrible. Does Icelandair have service to JFK?

DL has run JFK-KEF at 5x weekly since it first started. Looks like they have loaded the flight as 6x weekly now during summer peak, which is more frequency it has ever had. I really don't think they will up the frequency of a route that "always does horrible".

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-27 09:14:28 and read 6149 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 78):
They are just right sizing in most of these markets.

Right sizing because they weren't doing well in them--airlines don't "right size" profitable flying.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 79):

When did WN fly from NYC or BOS to any of those places?

Oh I thought you meant excluding NYC/BOS, but BOSPHL, BWILGA, BWIEWR, EWRPHX, LGAMKE are all down YOY, and I don't think any of the MDW can be very good.

[Edited 2012-11-27 09:17:11]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-27 09:22:25 and read 6120 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 68):
No, I agree with your point. The hub closing and what WN was doing were largely independent of each other except that some routes that WN flew were cut earlier than they might otherwise have been. For instance, AA cut STL-SDF, which WN flew, early on but kept STL-IND and STL-BNA until close to the end.

Agreed

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 74):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 73):
The record is mixed at best, particularly with WN's recent adds in major hubs, as well as NYC/BOS.
Where is WN having trouble competing ex-NYC or BOS?
Quoting iowaman (Reply 76):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 75):
PHL, PIT, IAD, CLE, SLC, PBI, MHT...
DTW and BOI could also be added to the list.

WN has basically sucked in the whole PacNW, while winning in SoCal by a wide margin IMHO.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 78):
People (not just you) seem to have this opinion that if WN isn't growing or if they are cutting flights they are automatically in trouble. They are just right sizing in most of these markets. The only city on this list that is actually having trouble is PHL. The rest are simply your opinion.

Well, they are turning into a hub and spoke airline. I just saw some numbers that say that the top 7 WN airports represent about 70% of WN's inbound and outbound seats in their newest schedule up from 62% in 2008. Point-to-points are disappearing. The top 7 by seats (exc Air Tran) are MDW, LAS, BWI, PHX, DEN, HOU, DAL. In 2008 they were LAS, MDW, PHX, BWI, HOU, DAL, OAK. These are seats, not ASMs.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-27 10:45:07 and read 5960 times.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 76):
Entirely too short with a non-existent O&D market.
Quoting iowaman (Reply 76):
Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 59):
Also..could we ever see WN start PHX-TUS? The only airline on the route is US...and they charge quite a bit for nonstops..

The ever-rumored express train line should take over this role   Like that would ever happen though.

I think that TUS is fine with it's US Airways Express flights to PHX, but maybe they could use a mainline to CLT (if they don't have one already)

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: steex
Posted 2012-11-27 11:41:37 and read 5866 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 55):
I forgot about DTW but isn't there more selection at LAX and SEA, or am I mistaken?

There is more capacity and more individual markets are served from DTW, though it's not by as large a margin as it was previously since they've subtracted HKG and are adding at SEA next summer.

DTW: ICN, NGO, NRT, PEK, PVG
SEA: HND, KIX, NRT, PEK, PVG
LAX: HND, NRT, SYD

DTW provides the best onward connectivity by virtue of having service to the KE hub at ICN in addition to the SkyTeam hubs at NRT, PEK, and PVG.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-27 11:52:43 and read 5845 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 81):
but BOSPHL, BWILGA, BWIEWR, EWRPHX, LGAMKE are all down YOY,

It's hard for me to argue that cuts in EWR/LGA are a sign of failure as long as WN continues to fly all of its slots. We can probably all agree that BWI-EWR/LGA was a slot placeholder.

And you seem to be ignoring the growth in BOS to the likes of STL and BNA.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: iowaman
Posted 2012-11-27 12:06:43 and read 5808 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 81):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 79):
When did WN fly from NYC or BOS to any of those places?
Oh I thought you meant excluding NYC/BOS, but BOSPHL, BWILGA, BWIEWR, EWRPHX, LGAMKE are all down YOY, and I don't think any of the MDW can be very good.

That's how I read it as well. My apologies

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 83):
I think that TUS is fine with it's US Airways Express flights to PHX, but maybe they could use a mainline to CLT (if they don't have one already)
TUS has struggled greatly with any type of non-stop service to the east coast and has quite the history with quick failures. The following have all failed:

WN tried daily TUS-BWI for a couple months Feb - April 2012. It is not returning next Winter/Spring.
US tried TUS-CLT in summer of 2008 - it was an evening CLT-TUS flight and red-eye TUS-CLT return.
B6 tried TUS-JFK Fall of 2006 through Spring of 2008. B6 cited low yields when they pulled out, and when they raised fares the flight averaged about a 50% load-factor. The flight was a late evening JFK departure and red-eye return.
UA tried TUS-IAD in Fall of 2006 as seasonal- both were daytime flights.
CO tried TUS-EWR in Fall of 2004 with a 735 and a similar schedule as CLT had.

Also worth noting even though it's not east coast -
NW tried TUS-MEM as a seasonal Saturday inbound from MEM and Sunday outbound with a CRJ.
F9 recently pulled out of TUS-DEN. There probably isn't room for three airlines on this route.

Yields are a significant problem at TUS, along with a relatively small market compared to PHX down the road. DL/NW has struggled to keep a daily MSP-TUS flight, although there have been seasonal second flights and I believe seasonal suspensions all together over the years. There isn't much that can't be reached on the east coast via AA to ORD/DFW, DL to ATL/MSP, and WN to MDW. Also plenty of DEN service on UA and WN with many connections offered.

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 72):
The business community will be happy about this! I guess WN's test of a second daily RDU-DEN route in June proved a good idea. With the discontinuation of RDU-PHL glad to see WN add frequencies to a few connection

I'm slightly surprised UA or F9 don't currently serve RDU-DEN. I believe UA did have a CR7 on that route for a while. WN has ran strong loads since the single daily flight was started.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 85):
It's hard for me to argue that cuts in EWR/LGA are a sign of failure as long as WN continues to fly all of its slots. We can probably all agree that BWI-EWR/LGA was a slot placeholder.

And you seem to be ignoring the growth in BOS to the likes of STL and BNA.

If WN gets the slots/ample room for more EWR and LGA service I wouldn't be surprised if they quickly jumped all over it. I don't know why WN would do BWI-EWR/LGA as a placeholder - they probably figured out the resources could be allocated better elsewhere. WN also seems interested in DCA slots as they should be.

[Edited 2012-11-27 12:18:51]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-27 12:19:06 and read 5779 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 85):

It's hard for me to argue that cuts in EWR/LGA are a sign of failure as long as WN continues to fly all of its slots

The slots provide an added incentive to try new/different things. Plus WN needs to be in WN and BOS and NYC in the longrun; I don't see them going anywhere any time soon, but they're still a distant also-ran after UA/B6/DL/AA in probably the most hypercompetitive market in the world.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 85):
And you seem to be ignoring the growth in BOS to the likes of STL and BNA.

I didn't say they weren't growing, but that I don't think it's going great. BOS is B6 territory, much in the way that the Pacific NW is AS' territory, and WN has trouble competing with either on their respective turf.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-27 12:31:33 and read 5754 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 87):
BOS is B6 territory, much in the way that the Pacific NW is AS' territory, and WN has trouble competing with either on their respective turf.

. . . just as B6 has trouble competing in places like Chicago. I'm not sure how this truth somehow spells doom and gloom for WN.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 87):
I don't see them going anywhere any time soon, but they're still a distant also-ran after UA/B6/DL/AA in probably the most hypercompetitive market in the world.

If your point is that WN is small in NYC, I have no argument there. But your argument seems to be that because WN is small, WN must be failing. I don't see any proof of that, and you certainly haven't provided any in this thread.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-27 13:11:28 and read 5689 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 88):
just as B6 has trouble competing in places like Chicago.

Exactly...it's the same situation in reverse

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 88):
But your argument seems to be that because WN is small, WN must be failing

It's not that it is small but that it is not bringing anything unique to a hypercompetitive market. NYCBWI is a perfect example--WN can't make the local market work, and the connections it could offer beyond BWI mostly (all?) are already served nonstop, and cheaply by other carriers. WN can't stimulate the market with low fares because it's not the low cost leader in the region either. It's a tough nut to crack for WN, but I don't expect them to leave NYC by any means.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-27 13:25:26 and read 5673 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 89):
It's not that it is small but that it is not bringing anything unique to a hypercompetitive market

I think folks in Saint Louis and Nashville would probably not agree with your premise that WN "brings nothing" to their choices to New York. BWI is, obviously, a different story.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-27 13:29:44 and read 5665 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*NK DFW-TLC JAN 1.0>0.3 FEB 1.0>0 MAR 1.0>0 APR 1.0>0.2

Im all for this if it means AM can get a better foothold in DFW.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-27 14:07:12 and read 5588 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 90):
I think folks in Saint Louis and Nashville would probably not agree with your premise that WN "brings nothing" to their choices to New York

I'm not so sure, they both already have AA/UA/DL trying to duke it out in those markets, so the local market may still be just as rough

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-27 14:29:15 and read 5551 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 87):
but they're still a distant also-ran after UA/B6/DL/AA in probably the most hypercompetitive market in the world.

[see below]

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 88):
If your point is that WN is small in NYC, I have no argument there. But your argument seems to be that because WN is small, WN must be failing. I don't see any proof of that, and you certainly haven't provided any in this thread.

You took these words right out of my mouth.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 89):
NYCBWI is a perfect example

NYC-BWI is your only example in NYC.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 81):
EWRPHX, LGAMKE are all down YOY
LGA-MKE is now all 737 instead of 717 so the capacity is practically the same and EWR-PHX had better opportunity operating to BNA.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 92):
I'm not so sure, they both already have AA/UA/DL trying to duke it out in those markets, so the local market may still be just as rough

And neither of those 3 have as large FF base as Southwest in STL so that gives them a boost.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 81):
and I don't think any of the MDW can be very good.

And thats the problem, you base some of this on just what you think or maybe even what you hope. I don't think they would add a 6th flight if it isn't doing well.

[Edited 2012-11-27 14:36:15]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2012-11-27 16:07:59 and read 5446 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
Doubtful--FL was bigger in ATL in terms of departures than just about any WN hub, with the exception of LAS where it clearly dominates. FL was able to do that on a cost advantage, which it will no longer have once it is WN.

And FL's entire network basically revolved around ATL. WN has a much larger network where that everything doesn't have to go through ATL.

Quoting michman (Reply 64):

That may be WN's reputation, but the statistics tell a different story. The latest DOT stats for the past 12 months have DL beating WN in both on-time percentage (87.0 vs 84.8) and mishandled baggage rate per 1,000 pax (2.11 vs. 2.99)

Exactly why a carriers statistics should include their "connection" and "express" carriers numbers as well. Also, do you realize that baggage is based on passengers carried and not number of bags checked. The baggage numbers should be changed to be based upon number of lost bags vs number of bags checked, not lost bags vs number of pax carried.

Quoting enilria (Reply 65):
Pretty much nothing has been fully converted to WN from ATL except a few West markets.

EYW, RIC, FNT, PWN, CLT, ICT, BKG have all been announced.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 69):
The amenities don't drive many buying decisions; the scope and depth of the network, however, do, and DL beats them 10 to 1 in ATL. WN can only attract ATL passengers on price.

WN can also attract their existing passengers in pre FL network that would like to go to ATL. Already having carried the ~100,000,000 passengers a year, I'm sure some of them would like to go to ATL.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 69):
People chose US over WN in PHL/PIT

PIT - WN/FL has 26 daily departures to 10 nonstop destinations (11 if you count HOU starting soon) on mainline equipment. US has 42 daily departures to 9 destinations with many of them on regional jets, I wouldn't exactly call that a success for US.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-27 16:13:08 and read 5428 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 93):
NYC-BWI is your only example in NYC.

It's not, but it's representative of most of the other examples

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 93):
EWR-PHX had better opportunity operating to BNA.

In other words, EWRPHX didn't work at twice daily.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 93):
And neither of those 3 have as large FF base as Southwest in STL so that gives them a boost.

Perhaps, although I haven't seen the numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if UA or AA had a larger corporate base in STL than WN.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 93):
you base some of this on just what you think or maybe even what you hope

No I don't think it's a stretch to say CHINYC is a struggle for anyone, particularly B6 and WN

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 94):
WN has a much larger network where that everything doesn't have to go through ATL.

Which speaks to WN pulling ATL way down

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 94):
I wouldn't exactly call that a success for US.

Of course not, they pulled the hub.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-27 16:19:10 and read 5425 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 65):
I hear they are very poor.

Just like you heard DSM was doing bad...   

Quoting enilria (Reply 65):
said two conference calls ago

So he said that 2 conference calls ago. I'll repeat it again, he said that 2 conference calls ago. Then comes the cuts from ATL to BKG, ICT, FNT etc... That means what he said 2 conference calls ago is fuzzy because are the cuts over or not, you need a recent comment to know for sure.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 95):
In other words, EWRPHX didn't work at twice daily.

Something doesn't have to be bad to end it if you see better opportunity somewhere else, especially at a slot controlled airport. If I am making money on 2x EWR-PHX but think I will make better money on EWR-BNA I will reduce the frequency and add BNA. It doesn't mean PHX was doing bad, it means I see better opportunity.

[Edited 2012-11-27 16:22:35]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-27 18:18:36 and read 5283 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 92):
I'm not so sure, they both already have AA/UA/DL trying to duke it out in those markets, so the local market may still be just as rough

Obviously, with the fact that WN is new to LGA and BOS makes it a bit difficult to assess this in those markets. But almost every time I fly BNA-BWI - a much more mature market - I talk to business travelers heading from Nashville to D.C.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-27 18:25:25 and read 5268 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 97):
I talk to business travelers heading from Nashville to D.C.

I fly LGA-BWI very often because it is a lot cheaper then the shuttle and all you have to do is take Amtrak to Union Station for $11, its so convenient. And I am not the only one that flies to BWI (from anywhere) and takes Amtrak to DC, its just so much cheaper but still convenient.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-27 18:46:11 and read 5216 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 96):
Something doesn't have to be bad to end it if you see better opportunity somewhere else, especially at a slot controlled airport. If I am making money on 2x EWR-PHX but think I will make better money on EWR-BNA I will reduce the frequency and add BNA. It doesn't mean PHX was doing bad, it means I see better opportunity.

Yeah that doesn't really happen, ever, certainly not at carriers with hundreds of planes and a low single digit profit margin at best

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-27 18:50:17 and read 5206 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 99):
Yeah that doesn't really happen, ever, certainly not at carriers with hundreds of planes and a low single digit profit margin at best

Yeah, that never happens, coming from the one who continues to bash Southwest. I'm done with this conversation because all it is is you trying to make SWA look as bad as possible with few facts and many opinions.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: OA412
Posted 2012-11-27 19:47:51 and read 5120 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 100):
Yeah, that never happens, coming from the one who continues to bash Southwest. I'm done with this conversation because all it is is you trying to make SWA look as bad as possible with few facts and many opinions.

      You really think that is just Maverick's opinion? In spite of the spin that you see on this site, airlines do not drop profitable routes. Ever. They do not drop profitable routes because there are more profitable opportunities around the corner.

I don't know if Maverick is overstating at all with respect to WN, but I really don't think he's that far off. I've flown them more than any other airline recently, but his criticisms are not out of left field. When WN purchased FL there were myriad people on this site predicting a 300+ flight per day hub in ATL and the imminent demise of DL because of the WN/FL merger. WN's actions since the merger make it increasingly obvious that neither is going to happen anytime soon.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-27 19:52:32 and read 5114 times.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 101):
In spite of the spin that you see on this site, airlines do not drop profitable routes. Ever.

I have no facts one way or the other regarding EWRPHX, but I can at least see the possibility that an airline with a small number of slots at a slot controlled airport and no reasonable path to securing more might drop a profitable route. It's one of just a handful of scenarios where I could see it happening.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-11-27 20:13:04 and read 5072 times.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL ATL-LHR APR 2>3 MAY 2>3 JUN 2>3 JUL 2>3

I tried to start a thread about this but didn't have a written source so the post was yanked..

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
This route always does horrible. Does Icelandair have service to JFK?

By what measure does it do "horrible?"

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 38):
This is a very smart point. If we look at AirTran, they might have been serving ATL very well but they must have been hurting in ATL because they moved most if not all of their focus from ATL to MCO, BWI and MKE.

The simple fact is that DL ate their lunch. FL threw junk fares down to Florida completely trashing the little yield left in the market but DL simply matched and in many cases had a revenue premium over FL. Economies of scale will always get you in the end. Especially at the level DL beefed up ATL post DFW shut-down. Remember, ATL today, is not even at its peak for DL when they debanked ATL.

There isn't much you can do when your competitor is 15x daily to MCO on 180(+) seat a/c. Same thing with LGA.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-28 05:43:58 and read 4885 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 103):
but DL simply matched and in many cases had a revenue premium over FL.

Interestingly, though, DL does not uniformly obtain a revenue premium over WN in markets where they compete. I don't have the ability to pull the numbers right now, but when I last reviewed them, WN and DL were pretty evenly split ex-MSP as far as who got better yields on any given route.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-11-28 06:00:20 and read 4864 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 104):

Interestingly, though, DL does not uniformly obtain a revenue premium over WN in markets where they compete. I don't have the ability to pull the numbers right now, but when I last reviewed them, WN and DL were pretty evenly split ex-MSP as far as who got better yields on any given route.

I'm sure you are right but I was speaking solely about FL's demise in ATL, going down to about 200 daily departures at their lowest.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: STT757
Posted 2012-11-28 06:00:49 and read 4867 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 85):
t's hard for me to argue that cuts in EWR/LGA are a sign of failure as long as WN continues to fly all of its slots.

WN has been growing it's passenger counts consistently at EWR, they're right there with B6 and DL. If their passenger counts keep going up they are going to be EWR's #2 airline probably within a year (with only 18 flights). Obviously the local market has embraced WN, something folks doubted for some reason or another.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-28 06:04:52 and read 4855 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 105):
I was speaking solely about FL's demise in ATL, going down to about 200 daily departures at their lowest.

Understood. My point was simply that the story on yields is quite a bit different for FL and WN, something I have never understood given FL's nice onboard product. Before the merger, it was difficult to find any route that both FL and WN flew where WN did not have a consistent yield premium.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-28 06:43:21 and read 4824 times.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 86):
I don't know why WN would do BWI-EWR/LGA as a placeholder - they probably figured out the resources could be allocated better elsewhere.

Not placeholders. WN has recently decided short-haul is a bad idea and has been exiting them.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 94):
Quoting enilria (Reply 65):
Pretty much nothing has been fully converted to WN from ATL except a few West markets.

EYW, RIC, FNT, PWN, CLT, ICT, BKG have all been announced.

So, you are agreeing with me? WN metal is flying none of those routes to ATL in any future schedule.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 96):
Quoting enilria (Reply 65):
I hear they are very poor.

Just like you heard DSM was doing bad...

DSM-MKE was doing very, very, very badly. The data is publicly available. So, what I heard was absolutely correct. Are you suggesting that those numbers were good?

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 96):
That means what he said 2 conference calls ago is fuzzy because are the cuts over or not, you need a recent comment to know for sure.

So now you are saying that your information about the network combination is more accurate than the CEO's public comments from earlier this year? Listen to the most recent conference call from very recently and the comments about WN on Delta's conference call where DL says that "WN-branded flights have been doing poorly in ATL and we have seen their desperation in the pricing".

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 103):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL ATL-LHR APR 2>3 MAY 2>3 JUN 2>3 JUL 2>3

I tried to start a thread about this but didn't have a written source so the post was yanked..

Link to this thread? Or verify with delta.com and post that as the source.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-28 07:37:08 and read 4746 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
conference call where DL says that "WN-branded flights have been doing poorly in ATL and we have seen their desperation in the pricing".

Your kidding me right? You (and DL) expect anyone to trust DL about whether WN is profitable in a city? That's a funny joke.

Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
So, what I heard was absolutely correct. Are you suggesting that those numbers were good

What you said in another thread was that DSM-MDW was doing horrible because FL did bad on DSM-MKE. The numbers show it does well.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-28 07:39:35 and read 4732 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 109):

Your kidding me right? You (and DL) expect anyone to trust DL about whether WN is profitable in a city? That's a funny joke.



I dont think anyone is saying that, but Mav and OA412 are correct. No airline shuts down routes that make money. That is an a.net fallacy.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-28 07:41:45 and read 4733 times.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 110):
No airline shuts down routes that make money.

That's not really the question with respect to EWR-PHX. The question is whether - at a slot controlled airport - an airline might shift a slot off of a profitable route.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-11-28 07:45:18 and read 4731 times.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 51):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 104):
WN and DL were pretty evenly split ex-MSP as far as who got better yields on any given route.

Well WN only serves a few routes from MSP. MDW is one where the premium traffic would go to ORD, not MDW so it is no surprise that DL doesnt get much yield premium there.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-11-28 07:53:38 and read 4705 times.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 101):
When WN purchased FL there were myriad people on this site predicting a 300+ flight per day hub in ATL and the imminent demise of DL because of the WN/FL merger.

And those people would be called idiots. LOL

Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
DSM-MKE was doing very, very, very badly. The data is publicly available. So, what I heard was absolutely correct. Are you suggesting that those numbers were good?

I think what everyone has been suggesting, when it comes to this statement of yours, is that comparing the DSM-MKE market to DSM-MDW is simply naive. MDW is a huge market for WN with much more connecting opportunities. That was statement over and over but you continued to dismiss those comments. It made zero sense to suggest that the performance to MDW would be similar to MKE, while knowing the markets are vastly different.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-28 09:42:28 and read 4595 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 109):
Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
conference call where DL says that "WN-branded flights have been doing poorly in ATL and we have seen their desperation in the pricing".

Your kidding me right? You (and DL) expect anyone to trust DL about whether WN is profitable in a city? That's a funny joke.

Again, I think you are apparently unaware how much data is available. You can completely reconstruct a carrier's P/L absent some decisions on cost allocation that are judgment calls. So, yes, they know. You can know too. Head over to bts.gov and get started. Additionally, DL has access to other sources like gate counting, MIDT, TCN, and GDS data. There are no secrets in this business.

FYI, you can even get the exact breakdown of taxi-time to airborne time by route by day by flight number if you want to get fuel burn down to the fraction.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 109):
Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
So, what I heard was absolutely correct. Are you suggesting that those numbers were good

What you said in another thread was that DSM-MDW was doing horrible because FL did bad on DSM-MKE. The numbers show it does well.
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 113):
I think what everyone has been suggesting, when it comes to this statement of yours, is that comparing the DSM-MKE market to DSM-MDW is simply naive. MDW is a huge market for WN with much more connecting opportunities. That was statement over and over but you continued to dismiss those comments. It made zero sense to suggest that the performance to MDW would be similar to MKE, while knowing the markets are vastly different.

The quote here did not say MDW, but I do believe that you don't go from horrible to great overnight. I still believe that they need to offer more than 2x day from a city to make it viable. I have said several times that DEN-DSM-MDW makes more sense. I also don't understand why they suffered through DSM-MKE for so long when it was awful.

[Edited 2012-11-28 09:44:20]

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-28 09:43:37 and read 4603 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 111):

That's not really the question with respect to EWR-PHX. The question is whether - at a slot controlled airport - an airline might shift a slot off of a profitable route.

Perhaps, but EWR is such a new station and EWRPHX barely made it a year at two daily, that the likelihood that it was great but an alternative was even better is nil; if that were so, why didn't they just start the alternative?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 107):
Before the merger, it was difficult to find any route that both FL and WN flew where WN did not have a consistent yield premium.

Network almost always wins out, and WN's network is multiples better than FL's, hence why it's generally trouncing airlines like F9/FL on their own turf.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-28 09:54:58 and read 4569 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 115):
if that were so, why didn't they just start the alternative?

Seems like fuel costs might have a pretty big effect on whether a slot is used to BNA or PHX . . .

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-28 10:17:15 and read 4538 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 115):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 107):
Before the merger, it was difficult to find any route that both FL and WN flew where WN did not have a consistent yield premium.

Network almost always wins out, and WN's network is multiples better than FL's, hence why it's generally trouncing airlines like F9/FL on their own turf.

Is that true adjusted for the bag fee difference? I suspect not...

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-28 10:21:45 and read 4526 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 116):

Seems like fuel costs might have a pretty big effect on whether a slot is used to BNA or PHX . . .

Wouldn't they know that beforehand? Plus fuel is down YOY. PHX and DEN got cut, plus the shorthaul BWI trips, while things like HOU/MSY/AUS/BNA were added, which is representative of most of the changes WN has been making lately.

Quoting enilria (Reply 117):

Is that true adjusted for the bag fee difference? I suspect not...

Good point, although I'd still expect WN to have a higher yield in FL competitive markets. FL F class seemed to be a bit like an appendix. It was there but didn't really serve a purpose in terms of yield.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-28 10:28:01 and read 4513 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 117):
Is that true adjusted for the bag fee difference? I suspect not...

It was true before FL implemented bag fees.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: wnflyguy
Posted 2012-11-28 10:50:08 and read 4475 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 54):

Agreed.
I don't see pay cuts being forced unless this "Merger" falls apart.
But contract talks with every work group will be historical and life changing this time around I think.
Because of the economy and fuel prices putting WN ROIC highest in it's history.
This Evolution is a hard pill to swallow for a lot people at WN.
I think once the Code share is in place ATL will finally will tie into the WN very well.
At that time I think you will see WN ADD new markets into ATL like MHT,ISP,SAN,ALB,PVD or SNA.
I also think once the Code share starts and the 717 trade out with 737's next Aug 2013 you will finally see the good tie ups of this merger come to light.
Flew F9 back home on Monday was able to talk shop with ground and flight crews about the future of F9.
The Buzz from Both work groups was the rumor of Spirit will Buying F9 in Jan 2013.
DEN rumored will be down to 8 to 10 gates total for F9.
Along with the Current gate reduction from F9 looks like DL will be relocating to the 5 vacant gates F9 giving up in JAN.
WN will end up with ALL of the C gates in JAN and 1 FL international gate in A.
wnfg 

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-11-28 11:02:48 and read 4455 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 114):
The quote here did not say MDW, but I do believe that you don't go from horrible to great overnight. I still believe that they need to offer more than 2x day from a city to make it viable. I have said several times that DEN-DSM-MDW makes more sense. I also don't understand why they suffered through DSM-MKE for so long when it was awful.

We are referencing your past statements. We can dig them back up for you if you'd like. However, it completely disproved your earlier thinking. It is a pretty big difference where they were doing terrible on a couple RJs to MKE, but are doing upper 70s load factors on 737s to MDW.

I do agree that DSM needs more service than just two flights. DEN, PHX, BWI, and maybe LAS should all be high on the list.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-28 11:27:20 and read 4434 times.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 120):
Along with the Current gate reduction from F9 looks like DL will be relocating to the 5 vacant gates F9 giving up in JAN.
WN will end up with ALL of the C gates in JAN and 1 FL international gate in A.

That would be great for WN, they need it.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 120):
The Buzz from Both work groups was the rumor of Spirit will Buying F9 in Jan 2013.

Interesting... a problem for Spirit is if they get rid of the animals on the tail they will be seen as the animal killer.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 120):
I think once the Code share is in place ATL will finally will tie into the WN very well.
At that time I think you will see WN ADD new markets into ATL like MHT,ISP,SAN,ALB,PVD or SNA.
I also think once the Code share starts and the 717 trade out with 737's next Aug 2013 you will finally see the good tie ups of this merger come to light.

I agree completely.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-11-28 12:06:07 and read 4384 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 122):
Interesting... a problem for Spirit is if they get rid of the animals on the tail they will be seen as the animal killer.

They'll just run an ad with hunter promoting new "snacks" for purchase on board easier than if you killed it yourself.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-28 12:25:26 and read 4358 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 118):
Good point, although I'd still expect WN to have a higher yield in FL competitive markets. FL F class seemed to be a bit like an appendix.

I think it served much more of a purpose than people give it credit for. Without it they would have had zero corporate business. It allowed them to get a share of corporate that WN is now losing. Did anybody buy F class tickets? No, but that's not surprising in most domestic markets with any carrier.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 119):
Quoting enilria (Reply 117):
Is that true adjusted for the bag fee difference? I suspect not...

It was true before FL implemented bag fees.

That's kind of moot isn't it? How long ago was that? In the current world I'm pretty sure FL + Bag fees is more revenue per pax than WN + $0 bag fees. I think Kelly effectively said that in the same conference call because he said that "the delay in the code share will not affect future revenues" because "the loss of bag fees offset the benefit of the WN branding". I thought it was an amazing statement. They have backed away from it lately. I suspect it was off the cuff, but those are most likely the more accurate comments as they are unshaped by the PR people.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 121):
It is a pretty big difference where they were doing terrible on a couple RJs to MKE

I think your memory isn't that good. It's the 717 operation DSM-MKE that I am referring to as awful. That CRJ operation was a prorate arrangement with Skywest. I wouldn't have said that WN/FL was losing tons on the CRJ operation because they had no risk on it...at least officially.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-11-28 13:02:20 and read 4309 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 124):
I think your memory isn't that good. It's the 717 operation DSM-MKE that I am referring to as awful. That CRJ operation was a prorate arrangement with Skywest. I wouldn't have said that WN/FL was losing tons on the CRJ operation because they had no risk on it...at least officially.

You are right, it was that. Either way, it is good to see that your opinion was misguided as DSM-MDW is doing quite well in comparison!

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-28 13:05:02 and read 4316 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 125):
You are right, it was that. Either way, it is good to see that your opinion was misguided as DSM-MDW is doing quite well in comparison!

Well, we don't know that until the data comes out. You are saying it is full based upon airport enplanement data? That's half the battle.  

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-11-28 13:28:35 and read 4286 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 126):
Well, we don't know that until the data comes out. You are saying it is full based upon airport enplanement data? That's half the battle.

Just said it was doing quite well, compared to what it was before. I'll leave full judgement on the table right now until the financials are actually public.  

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: wnflyguy
Posted 2012-11-28 16:37:11 and read 4172 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 124):

I think Bags Fly Free is almost Dead.
I Would like to see WN drop Bags fly free in favor of bag fees next year.
I think if WN just added $5 or $10 dollars for checked bags WN would make it's 15% ROIC with out any problem.
Make Business select the only fare with free checked luggage no restrictions on carry on luggage.
Make group A business select 1-30 and Early bird group 31-60 with 1 free checked baggage for this product.
Then make B and C is general boarding with only one carry on limit and no free checked baggage.
That's my revamped Business model.
wnfg 

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-28 17:09:53 and read 4109 times.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 128):
That's my revamped Business model.

I think they should reduce it to 1 free bag for everyone and make business select and all of the elites 2 free bags. Boarding, the first A's should be credit card members, then Companion pass, A-List preferred, A-List, Business select, Early bird and then general boarding.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2012-11-28 17:29:51 and read 4076 times.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 128):
Make Business select the only fare with free checked luggage no restrictions on carry on luggage.
Make group A business select 1-30 and Early bird group 31-60 with 1 free checked baggage for this product.
Then make B and C is general boarding with only one carry on limit and no free checked baggage.

And get rid of "A-list"? Why limit early bird to 30 passengers?

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-28 17:49:01 and read 4050 times.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 128):
I think Bags Fly Free is almost Dead.

You are exactly right, but from what I hear it won't happen until the whole company is on Amadeus which isn't for a while.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-11-28 18:04:52 and read 4025 times.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 128):
I think Bags Fly Free is almost Dead.

Not a chance. It's not going anywhere for awhile.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 128):
I Would like to see WN drop Bags fly free in favor of bag fees next year.

I'm sure several would, especially CSAs to reduce the amount of bags being checked. Won't happen though.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 128):
I think if WN just added $5 or $10 dollars for checked bags WN would make it's 15% ROIC with out any problem.

There is no point. We can raise fares by $10 and everyone matches. Someone else, like UA, can raise fares by $10 and if we don't match they pull it back. There is no point when you still have that much power in overall pricing.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 128):
Make Business select the only fare with free checked luggage no restrictions on carry on luggage.

I'd rather see designated rows blocked off for Business Select first.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 128):
Make group A business select 1-30 and Early bird group 31-60 with 1 free checked baggage for this product.

1) That is too many Business Select seats. Unless you restrict on board seating you are going to upset a lot of people getting on a continuing flight.

2) Why limit Early Bird? I think of it more as a convenience thing than a seating preference. Yeah it helps you get on earlier, but I like the part where you don't have to worry about checking in late and getting a C.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 128):
Then make B and C is general boarding with only one carry on limit and no free checked baggage.

I don't see the current carry on limits being bad. One bag and one personal item. The issue is just people being inconsiderate and not using the space under the seat first.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-28 18:52:47 and read 3947 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 132):
I'd rather see designated rows blocked off for Business Select first.

I fly almost exclusively business select, and I don't see the point. I get the seat I want probably two thirds of the time, and the flights where I won't get my choice seat are pretty predictable (e.g. BNA-LAX, which is generally a continuation from a big east coast city with 30 or more thrus).

The trouble it would cause for the flight attendants does not seem worth it.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 129):
I think they should reduce it to 1 free bag for everyone and make business select and all of the elites 2 free bags. Boarding, the first A's should be credit card members, then Companion pass, A-List preferred, A-List, Business select, Early bird and then general boarding.

Terrible idea. A-list is far to easy to acquire to put it ahead of business select. It's possible to make a-list with fewer than 10 flights in business select if the flights are fairly long.

I did not have WN status last year. I made a-list on my eighth segment this year and a-list preferred on my twentieth.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2012-11-28 20:50:23 and read 3828 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 69):

The amenities don't drive many buying decisions; the scope and depth of the network, however, do, and DL beats them 10 to 1 in ATL.

If it's just about the size of the network, than how would WN would even exist at this point. They've always served fewer cities than the legacies. So obviously it goes beyond just that.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 69):
WN can only attract ATL passengers on price.

You're describing FL. WN has been able to attract a higher fare. My buying history follows that. If I'm choosing between WN and DL, DL is usually the one that can only compete on price. And plus, WN can compete very well in price yet if it comes to that.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 69):
People chose US over WN in PHL/PIT

No one chose PIT. And PHL is a exemption to the rule.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 69):
WN is going to have to grow quite a bit and lose a lot of money in the process to get to a point where it can inflict any damage on DL in ATL.

FL already helps trash ATL yields. WN only has to follow suit. If you look at recent average airfare history, ATL has never been near the top. In fact I haven't seen higher than about mid-pack. For a dominant hub like that, fares should be higher. That speaks to the effect FL has on DL in ATL.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 69):
WN is still barely a blip on the radar in MSP.

Still a blip, but two things about that. First is that blip is getting bigger. And second, it's never decreased in size.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 70):
For passengers originating in cities where WN is a bigger player, I don't know.

Those theories can't be discounted. Just recently I booked a trip to IAH, and afterwards I realized that this would be the first time that I've flown on a trip that didn't start, end, or connect through MSP. If you're not some point-to-point flyer, obviously you use the same home airport over and over. WN customers have never had access to ATL until now, just like I never had access to WN at MSP until 2009. It's just a whole new dynamic.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-29 06:13:05 and read 3667 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 132):
There is no point. We can raise fares by $10 and everyone matches.

That's exactly the reason. The other guy is always better off. If they didn't match you could use a fare differential to offset the bag fee revenue difference. BTW, I hate bag fees, but they are losing revenue and have little choice as soon as their technology allows it.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-29 08:45:35 and read 3585 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):

If it's just about the size of the network, than how would WN would even exist at this point. They've always served fewer cities than the legacies. So obviously it goes beyond just that.

...lower costs

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):

No one chose PIT. And PHL is a exemption to the rule.

Or IAD, or the Midwest, or Florida...WN is down in a lot of places it traditionally ruled

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):
FL already helps trash ATL yields. WN only has to follow suit.

WN can not afford to match FL fares, probably *the* reason they bought FL

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2012-11-29 10:27:36 and read 3521 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 136):

Yes, you are correct, WN is failing miserably and will file Ch. 11 next year and then file Ch. 7 and liquidate in 2015.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-11-29 14:19:00 and read 3396 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 135):
That's exactly the reason. The other guy is always better off. If they didn't match you could use a fare differential to offset the bag fee revenue difference. BTW, I hate bag fees, but they are losing revenue and have little choice as soon as their technology allows it.

Eh if you say so. At the end of the day WN carries more domestic pax than anyone else, and the free bags does help with some of that traffic. Are we leaving revenue on the table? Sure. However taking us down to everyone else's level in this instance won't really do anything to help.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 136):
Or IAD, or the Midwest, or Florida...WN is down in a lot of places it traditionally ruled

WN rules IAD? LOL That's rich.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 136):
WN can not afford to match FL fares, probably *the* reason they bought FL

I would imagine FL costs were well lower simply due to it being a younger airline and they didn't pay nearly as much to the employees.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 137):
Yes, you are correct, WN is failing miserably and will file Ch. 11 next year and then file Ch. 7 and liquidate in 2015.

LOL. ZOMG we're doomed! You have to admit though, these blatantly anti-WN folk are pretty adorable sometimes. Almost as much as those that were/are always negative against the airline that will never die...US.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2012-11-29 16:19:27 and read 3312 times.

IAD is close to BWI both being WAS airports. It's possible WN chose to downsize and not stimulate it to keep it as a small station next to a hub. I can see them adding BNA though to IAD, since DCA won't be linked to it by WN and it offers
destinations south better than just MDW or DEN.

One test for WN at ATL will be performance on BOS-ATL once it converts to WN metal. It's not shielded by being short-haul, focus city-focus city, destinational where a 1x can work, or many valuable connections for BOS travelers, who anyways likely get low fares nonstop to many popular destinations via B6. Not a route to a premium slot airport like LGA or DCA. Plus MHT and PVD pax might continue to use the local airport fly there and connect at BWI. A route where WN will have to keep a high frequency going most likely also. Going at 3x or less opens the scenario that B6 adds flights too.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2012-11-29 18:00:58 and read 3221 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 138):
WN rules IAD? LOL That's rich.

Obviously not IAD, but Florida and the Midwest? They used to be much larger in both.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 138):
I would imagine FL costs were well lower simply due to it being a younger airline and they didn't pay nearly as much to the employees.

Clearly.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 138):
You have to admit though, these blatantly anti-WN folk are pretty adorable sometimes.

It's always curious to see someone take a fairly common discussion of the challenges facing an airline so personally.

Topic: RE: OAG Changes 11/30/2012: B6/WN/DL Big MEM Cut
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-29 19:04:30 and read 3160 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 140):
It's always curious to see someone take a fairly common discussion of the challenges facing an airline so personally.

Its not personal, some people are just really out of touch. Some of you just need to come out right and say this because this is what you are all pretty much saying...

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 137):
WN is failing miserably and will file Ch. 11 next year and then file Ch. 7 and liquidate in 2015.

Obviously this user is being sarcastic, but this is what some users must believe based on their posts and it is just completely out of touch. Is WN still in their golden age, no but they are not falling of a cliff either.

[Edited 2012-11-29 19:05:56]


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