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Topic: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: tonytifao
Posted 2012-11-18 20:43:45 and read 5860 times.

Everyone bashes AA MDs, being old, gas guzzlers, etc. I don't see why it's not said the same about DL MDs. Delta is actually acquiring while AA is slowly retiring. Is there much difference between the MDs fleet of these two airlines?

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: spiritair97
Posted 2012-11-18 20:55:08 and read 5880 times.

I can't really comment on the AA Mad Dawgs as I've never been on one, but I have been on several DL MD-88's and they have all been pretty nice. Clean, well-kept, nice interiors, WiFi, overall a pretty nice plane. I don't know if the same is to be said about the AA MD's, so I'll leave that up to somebody who has expereinced them. athough, from what I hear on A.net and see for myself, DL's MD's have a better maintenance reliability than AA's.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: questions
Posted 2012-11-18 20:56:09 and read 5876 times.

Part of it is philosophy... take on a lot of debt for new fuel efficient aircraft (spend money on aircraft) vs take on significantly less debt acquiring and upgrading cabins on fuel inefficient aircraft (spend money on fuel).

Part of it is brand... leading edge, advanced, modern vs conservative, second-hand, good enough will do

At the end of the day, excluding network, the strategy that pulls in the most revenue with best margins wins.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: southwest737500
Posted 2012-11-18 20:57:12 and read 5883 times.

AA has Md82/83

AA simply can't make money with those planes they had to many and by the time they realized they needed newer efficient planes it was to late. Gotta love US has one of the most fuel efficient planes in the fleet
DL has md88/90 and soon to be 717

DL on the other hand is making money with and is acquiring more for a cheap cost which is enables then to generate more revenue.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: tonytifao
Posted 2012-11-18 21:00:19 and read 5877 times.

I fly both of them on a weekly basis, I'm fine with both airlines MDs, I just hear that AA can't make money with them, but like I said, DL keeps acquiring them, so they must e making money

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: mpdpilot
Posted 2012-11-18 21:08:22 and read 5878 times.

I think the difference is in the types of MD aircraft that Delta is acquiring.

Where AA has the 280 MD-82 give or take, Delta is acquiring aircraft that are far more fuel efficient than AA's MDs.

Delta is acquiring MD-90's and 717s these are quite fuel efficient aircraft and very cheap to purchase so the cost is more about the maintenance. Verse the AA MD's which are not as fuel efficient and maintenance heavy.

Having both is a problem, having just one is workable.

The other thing to remember is that airlines aren't just looking for a profit in part it is the whole picture. AA's MDs, might actually be making money for AA even though the margins might be very small. Mix that with revenue issues in other areas and you have a loss.

At the end of the day, I don't think that AA MDs are the problem, I think they are unsustainable. I think the issue isn't their fuel efficiency it is the shear size of the fleet. Even if they took delivery of every A320 coming off the line it would take years.

Taking on that kind of debt (something Delta is trying to avoid) will be crippling. With something like 480 aircraft on order, paying for that will require a lot of cash and a steady cash flow, something that I don't think this industry can guarantee yet. I also really don't think that AA's plan of acquiring 480 some aircraft is going to allow them to be as flexible as they will need to be to remain profitable.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: tonytifao
Posted 2012-11-18 21:11:41 and read 5878 times.

Thank you all for the responses.

So what makes MD90s more efficient than the MD80s?

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-18 21:24:17 and read 5879 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 2):
Part of it is brand... leading edge, advanced, modern vs conservative, second-hand, good enough will do

Been awhile since AA has been "leading edge", in my estimation and I'll take conservative, second-hand (but refurbished) any day over another bankruptcy.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: mhkansan
Posted 2012-11-18 21:34:46 and read 5882 times.

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):
So what makes MD90s more efficient than the MD80s?

Gigantic, high-bypass V2500 engines in the back.


-

I'm going to be the first to say this here, AA's MD-80s are a lot nicer than DL's. Sure Delta has economy comfort and embroidered headrests and what have you, but the entire back of that airplane, like five rows, has no view since the reconfiguration. AA's S80s have only two (one 1.5 really since you can still get a half window in row 31) and AA has extended overhead bin space on the DEF side of the airplane. AA has nicer first class seats in the S80 and most economy seats are fitted with winged headrests, something you can't get on DL.

I think the big difference in philosophy is how they're being deployed. DL still sends MD-88s on higher yeilding long-distance flights. AA only does to a very limited extent. DFW-PDX, ORD-TUS, LAX-STL are among the longest and they are disappearing more and more. Alternatively, they're deploying them exclusively on high-cycle, high-frequency, high-density routes from DFW and to a lesser extent ORD. (DFW-AUS/SAT/OKC/TUL/MCI/DEN) (ORD-MSP/STL/LGA/DCA/PHL).

I think the notion that AA can't make money with the S80 is false. DL has more seats in the back than AA and a better (cheaper) contract for them. Other than that I can't see why the costs would be any different. AA's MD-83s were built to the same MD-88 standard as DL's except with the older cockpit to keep commonality with the other jets.


Whatever your opinion, they're still fun jets to fly. I just got off one, ELP-DFW. I hope they stick around for awhile.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: N243NW
Posted 2012-11-18 21:38:36 and read 5879 times.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 5):
Where AA has the 280 MD-82 give or take

More like 180 (-82 and -83 combined). The 737 just passed up the Mad Dog in number.

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):
So what makes MD90s more efficient than the MD80s?

V2500 engines are the main thing. More or less the same engine as the A320...a much newer design and higher bypass ratio than the JT8Ds they replace. Also, the fuselage stretch allows more pax and therefore more revenue...

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: AAplat4life
Posted 2012-11-19 07:29:53 and read 5874 times.

AA still flies MD80s on long flights. ORD-LAS should be all 738, but it is all MD80. Last month, there was a daily 738 flight, but no longer. ORD-PSP is almost always a full flight, but it is always MD80. Even some ORD-LAX routes find some MD80s there. AA always comes up with some reason to put the MD80s back into service on long haul flights out of ORD, but the reasoning seems suspect given high fuel prices and heavy passenger loads.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-11-19 08:25:36 and read 5873 times.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 3):
AA simply can't make money with those planes they had to many and by the time they realized they needed newer efficient planes it was to late

What happened to AA was that Boeing started dropping hints that it was looking to develop a new narrowbody, using some of the technology of the 787. Southwest went on record saying that if Boeing would develop a new narrowbody that could reduce costs by the same percentage that the 787 reduces costs over the 767, it would order 150 and option 150. I seem to recall that this was around 2006. This was also when the 787 wasn't so far behind schedule.

AA didn't want to put in a large order for 737NGs, then have Boeing start taking orders for a new narrowbody within a few years. Between that potential scenrio and trying to conserve cash, AA sat on the sidelines until the price of oil skyrocketed in 2008. So, AA placed its large 738 order for deliveries to start in 2009.

Of course, if AA had decided to go ahead with the 738 order in 2006 or early 2007, they would have been receiving planes as the price of oil mushroomed. But, when AA's primary supplier of aircraft is whispering about a new narrowbody, and Southwest is pushing Boeing hard to start work on a new plane, it makes sense to wait and see.

That said, I've been on a number of AA MD-80s and have found them to be kept in good condition. Obviously, they haven't gone through a major refurbishment since the late 1990s, when AA went to the current color scheme and seats with the adjustable headrests.

I've never been on a Delta MD-88, and it's been some time since any friends of mine have flown Delta on the MD-88. So, I can't comment. But, I would expect that if Delta is planning to keep the MD-88s for some time (or until fuel prices get too expensive for the type), then they will get a lot of TLC.

One would expcet that AA will keep the MD-80s in good condition in terms of operations of the aircraft, but the interiors may not get as much TLC, since the fleet is destined for the desert, as more 738s are delivered and A319s start arriving next year.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: Darksnowynight
Posted 2012-11-19 08:36:04 and read 5871 times.

Quoting tonytifao (Thread starter):
Everyone bashes AA MDs, being old, gas guzzlers, etc. I don't see why it's not said the same about DL MDs. Delta is actually acquiring while AA is slowly retiring. Is there much difference between the MDs fleet of these two airlines?

The fact that DL is doing as well as they are with so many MDs puts that myth to rest. AA's problem isn't the S80s, it's AA. Type matters to a small extent, but there's a good deal more to it than that.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 1):
from what I hear on A.net and see for myself, DL's MD's have a better maintenance reliability than AA 's.

They're newer (although AA does have some of the most recent, courtesy of TWA). DL spends good money on MD MX too. They just don't have that ridiculous lease arrangement on their backs.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 3):

AA simply can't make money with those planes they had to many and by the time they realized they needed newer efficient planes it was to late.

Again, the 80's aren't the problem. It's their usage and their lease back.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 3):
Gotta love US has one of the most fuel efficient planes in the fleet

Ok. But why can't VX (who has the same fleet, minus the 21) make any money? There's more to this than individual trip costs.

G4 & NK both print money these days. One with MDs, the other with 319s, 20s, and a 21. But their operational strategies are so different to what we see at AA, DL, and the LCCs that trip costs almost don't matter there.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 5):
Verse the AA MD's which are not as fuel efficient and maintenance heavy.


They're not, no. But let's not forget that some of DL's MDs are actually DC-9-50s. Where would those fall on this scale?

I'm not saying updating their fleet is a bad idea. It isn't. But they're going to have to do a lot more than blame the MD80s to set themselves on a less loss-intensive path, going forward.



Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):
So what makes MD90s more efficient than the MD80s?

More seats, better engines, and above all else, DL has been adept at getting these planes cheap. AA has really not done this with their own MDs. I think by now the type has more than paid for itself, but their being AA with all that entails has been their problem. Frankly, AA would be in the exact same bind they are in even if their S80s were A32xs.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 5):

The other thing to remember is that airlines aren't just looking for a profit in part it is the whole picture. AA 's MDs, might actually be making money for AA even though the margins might be very small. Mix that with revenue issues in other areas and you have a loss.

Yup, I think you nailed it. Super high labor, disadvantageous vendor contracts in literally everything they do, refusal to open up new markets, and fierce competition that will not relent have all taken their toll. We really can't just blame the Mad Dawgs, as intellectually facile as that may be.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-11-19 08:38:09 and read 5868 times.

Overall, I prefer the interiors of the DL MD-88s over the AA MD-80s. DL has gone through the process of refurbishing the cabins, including leather seat covers, updated PSUs, and cool white lighting. The only thing better about AA's MD-80s are the winged headrests in Y.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-11-19 08:55:37 and read 5870 times.

Deltas MD-90s are much more fuel efficient than AAs Mad Dogs. You are comparing MD-80s to MD-90s. Its apples to oranges comparison. Delta is getting much more fuel efficient planes. Not a bad move and delta can retire the more fuel guzzling DC9s and older MD88s.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-11-19 09:07:08 and read 5870 times.

While I definitely understand the significant difference between the -80 and -90, what precisely is the MD-88?

Other than being newer, does it have lower operating costs than the -80/-83?

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-11-19 09:24:07 and read 5871 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 15):
While I definitely understand the significant difference between the -80 and -90, what precisely is the MD-88?

Other than being newer, does it have lower operating costs than the -80/-83?

The MD-88 is an updated MD-82 with a partial CRT cockpit and screwdriver tailcone; DL's first MD-88s were actually converted MD-82s. However, the partial CRT cockpit and screwdriver tailcone later became standard on the MD-82 and MD-83.

As for operating cost, it should be the same as the MD-82.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: jayspilot
Posted 2012-11-19 09:32:41 and read 5866 times.

I saw it posted once but someone showed the fuel burn on a 500,750 and 1000 stage length comparing a DL md-88 vs a DL 737-800 and a B6 A320. From what I remember the shorter two legs were almost the same regardless of the plan with the efficiences only showing on the longer legs as the curse phase of flight is where the savings builds up.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2012-11-19 09:35:33 and read 5866 times.

I flew one of DL's MD-90s from ATL - SAN a few years back. It was pleasant enough up front. I noticed DL puts its two seat rows on the right side of the plane whereas AA puts theirs on the left. What really struck me about the DL plane I flew in was the noise and vibration in the back of the plane. The racket was so loud, I can't imagine anyone flying in the last five rows. I recall using the lavatory and being shocked at the rear of the aircraft. I don't recall that in the AA planes, but I haven't flown one recently.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: L1011
Posted 2012-11-19 09:38:56 and read 5866 times.

I think Delta's and American's MD-80s are both very nice aircraft to fly in. The interiors of both are clean and well-maintained. I prefer AA's because of the cloth seat covers. I'm not crazy about leather.

Bob Bradley

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: MountainFlyer
Posted 2012-11-19 10:38:06 and read 5869 times.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18):
I flew one of DL's MD-90s from ATL - SAN a few years back. It was pleasant enough up front. I noticed DL puts its two seat rows on the right side of the plane whereas AA puts theirs on the left.

That's only the case with the DL MD-88's. The DL MD-90's are, as AFAIK always have been two on left, three on right.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: mhkansan
Posted 2012-11-19 11:18:29 and read 5866 times.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 20):
That's only the case with the DL MD-88's. The DL MD-90's are, as AFAIK always have been two on left, three on right.

You've got it swapped. AA's S80s 2-3 (AB, DEF). DL's MD-90s and DC-9-50s are also like this, but the DL MD-88s are 3-2 (ABC DE).

Its awfully confusing, and since I'm familiar with the way AA does it it just looks weird!

Remember AA's have the expanded bins on the DEF side while DL's do not.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: MountainFlyer
Posted 2012-11-19 11:23:57 and read 5868 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 21):
You've got it swapped. AA's S80s 2-3 (AB, DEF). DL's MD-90s and DC-9-50s are also like this, but the DL MD-88s are 3-2 (ABC DE).

That's exactly what I said. Generally, when making reference to "right" and "left" side of the aircraft, we are referring to aircraft right or left, meaning looking forward from the back, not looking backward from the front as you walk into the plane.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: downtown273
Posted 2012-11-19 11:42:22 and read 5867 times.

I fly SK's MD-82's 2 or 3 times per week. I'll choose an MD80 over A320/B738 any time. If you fly in the front (business/premium economy) it's incredibly quiet and they have a 2-3 layout. I find the 3-3 configuration on A320/B738 way more uncomfortable for foodservice / working.

They might be old planes but the flying experience is great, in my opinion!

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-11-19 11:50:09 and read 5864 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 21):
Remember AA's have the expanded bins on the DEF side while DL's do not.

That is where you are wrong. DL has expanded bins on the ABC side on the MD-88s and the DEF side on the MD-90s. They were installed on the MD-88s in 2000, and the MD-90s have been retrofitted in the past year or two. Also, unlike AA, the bin extensions on DL's MD-88s have a holding rail.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: asqx
Posted 2012-11-19 11:56:49 and read 6185 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 21):
Remember AA's have the expanded bins on the DEF side while DL's do not.

Delta has extended bins on the ABC side of the MD-88 and the CDE side of the MD-90.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: woodsboy
Posted 2012-11-19 12:45:48 and read 6419 times.

I worked OPS for Alaska Airlines in the 90s when we operated MD82/83 and 737-400s on both long and short routes. When you do ops you get to see and compare exactly how much fuel each one takes on, trip fuel burn, etc. The MD80 burned and carried marginally more fuel than the 737-400 on longer trips like FAI-SEA but for short hops like FAI-ANC there was little or no difference in the trip fuel depending on the alternate airport. I can see how the extra 2000 lbs of fuel ads up on 3-4 hour flights though.

I agree mostly with what others have said in that it isnt the MD80 at AA that is the problem it is indeed the size of the fleet, the terrible leases and labor that have been the problem. The difference between owning a fleet or even a single aircraft and leasing them more than makes up the difference of what is spent on fuel. You can buy a lot of fuel for one aircraft if you own it outright that would otherwise be totally eaten up with leases that likely exceed the monthly fuel bill for that plane.

There are differences between DLs MD88s and AAs MD82/83s but they are mostly subjective. None of the major US airlines are going to neglect a fleet or type, they cant do that for many reasons so I expect the preference for one as opposed to another to be totally based on personal taste. DL is obviously committed to their MD88s for the future now that they are bringing in more MD90s and can concentrate on the MX and upgrades of that larger fleet while saving HUGE money on capital outlay for new aircraft. There is no reason that DLs MD88s would be any less comfortable than their 738s or 739s as long as they are upgraded to keep pace with what passengers expect. AA is retiring their MD80s as new 738s and in the future A320 family aircraft arrive but in the meantime I dont imagine they will be neglecting the MD80s so long as they are in the fleet.

DL had a singularly unique chance to acquire and control the worldwide fleet of a particular type of aircraft removing the competition for MX, parts and spares for that fleet. They can and will, I predict eventually end up with every MD90 in the world as the last handfull of operators retire them. Right now only a few remain that are not spoken for by DL, those at UNI and Lion and of course the orphan fleet of Saudi with the non MD90 standard flight deck of the 717. But now that DL has committed to the 88 717s from Southwest those orphan Saudi MD90s might make more sense since they are now all parked- all but one apparently.

As far as efficiency of the MD90 and 717, they are now and will remain to be at the top of the heap in terms of operating economics for their size, pretty impressive for a plane (the MD90) who's first flight was almost 20 years ago. Think about that, years before the 737NGs took to the skies, MDC more or less was building the MD90 that preformed as well as the 738 and still compares pretty evenly with it all these years later. Of course the 717 is a type that has no competition except for the stepchild 737-600 which nobody wants and possibly the C-Series which is still half a year away from its first flight. The 717 has proven itself to be a rugged and reliable short hauler that has operating economics second to none. Ask HA how their fleet of island hopping 717s do and they will tell you that nothing else could do what the 717 does.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: N766UA
Posted 2012-11-19 13:25:54 and read 6506 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 2):
good enough will do

I really don't think that's DAL's philosophy. They're taking early to mid-aged jets (with the exception of the ancient -9's,) and putting fuel in them which they can control the cost of, now that they have their own refinery.

Meanwhile, AAL is buying jets they can't afford and putting fuel they also can't afford in the jets they already have. Delta seems to be playing it smart, especially considering that their "old" MD-88s are some of the nicer jets in the sky now (new interiors, wifi, etc).

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: B727FA
Posted 2012-11-19 14:23:50 and read 6441 times.

I'll make it easy here: DL and AA have the extended bins on the 3 seat side. Done.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: TrnsWrld
Posted 2012-11-19 14:38:12 and read 6468 times.

Someone above described the differences between the MD82 and the MD88, but can someone tell me the differences between the MD88 and the MD83? I know its not that the MD88 is the newer version because infact its not, the latest MD's were 83 series that all went to TWA as far as I know.
Thanks for any info on that.

I have been on many AA, TWA, DL MD80's, and DL MD90 and I do not recall any differences whatsoever. All were fine flights. My most memorable was back in the 90's on a brand spaken new TWA MD83. Captain said it started service only the day before. First time I have ever smelled "new plane smell", and it was amazing  

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-11-19 15:02:13 and read 6461 times.

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 29):
Someone above described the differences between the MD82 and the MD88, but can someone tell me the differences between the MD88 and the MD83? I know its not that the MD88 is the newer version because infact its not, the latest MD's were 83 series that all went to TWA as far as I know.
Thanks for any info on that.

The MD-83 is the longer range variant of the MD-80 family, equipped with more powerful engines and more fuel capacity. The MD-83 has a range of 2500 nmi, vs. 2050 nmi for the MD-82/88.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: captainstefan
Posted 2012-11-19 15:33:57 and read 6452 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 8):
DL still sends MD-88s on higher yeilding long-distance flights.

In general, DL does not fly the 88s west of the Rockies. Those missions are left for the 90s and bigger.

Quoting L1011 (Reply 19):
I'm not crazy about leather.

Seconded. I don't like that... swampy... feeling the pleather gives.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 20):
That's only the case with the DL MD-88's. The DL MD-90's are, as AFAIK always have been two on left, three on right.

Does anyone have any particular technical reason as to why an airline would do this?

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: B757forever
Posted 2012-11-19 15:42:25 and read 6437 times.

Quoting L1011 (Reply 19):
I'm not crazy about leather.

DL moved away from cloth and chose leather because fluids (let your imagination run wild) do not soak into leather as they do cloth. The leather is claimed to be more sanitary.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-19 15:44:28 and read 6425 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
DL has gone through the process of refurbishing the cabins, including leather seat covers, updated PSUs, and cool white lighting.
Quoting L1011 (Reply 19):
I think Delta's and American's MD-80s are both very nice aircraft to fly in. The interiors of both are clean and well-maintained. I prefer AA's because of the cloth seat covers. I'm not crazy about leather.

Fully agree. Leather is no improvement in my opinion. I much prefer cloth. The only reason airlines use leather is because it lasts longer and is cheaper to maintain. You almost never see leather on longhaul widebodies operated by airlines with the best service reputations. For example, LX and BA use leather on shorthaul narrowbodies but cloth on widebodies. KLM's continued use of cloth on their 737s is one reason I prefer KL to most other major European carriers for travel within Europe. AF also still uses cloth on their European A320 family fleet.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2012-11-19 16:01:34 and read 6439 times.

Quoting captainstefan (Reply 31):
Quoting mhkansan (Reply 8): DL still sends MD-88s on higher yeilding long-distance flights.
In general, DL does not fly the 88s west of the Rockies. Those missions are left for the 90s and bigger.

DL does not fly the MD88s any farther west than cities like DFW, SAT, OKC, or MCI.
Unlike AA, DL does not even use their MD-88s into hotter/higher airports like DEN, SLC, PHX, TUS, or ABQ. DL has the more capable / efficient (base on route profile) MD-90s and A320s in the same capacity range.

In fact, DLs longest MD-88 flights are some of the NYC-Florida and DTW-Florida routes, all in the ~1000 mile range.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2012-11-19 16:11:17 and read 6425 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
Fully agree. Leather is no improvement in my opinion. I much prefer cloth. The only reason airlines use leather is because it lasts longer and is cheaper to maintain. You almost never see leather on longhaul widebodies operated by airlines with the best service reputations. For example, LX and BA use leather on shorthaul narrowbodies but cloth on widebodies. KLM's continued use of cloth on their 737s is one reason I prefer KL to most other major European carriers for travel within Europe. AF also still uses cloth on their European A320 family fleet.

I completely agree and like flying KL for the same reasons, although I find their aircraft to be nicer than that of AF for some reason. The problem with leather on longhaul flights is that it gets cold and you feel like you're slipping out of your seat so end up having to scoot back up on a regular basis. That can become tiring after hours of sitting. I do prefer AA's MD-80's in general, and the cloth seats are just part of it. I think I prefer the 2-3 configuration instead of the 3-2 as well as the darker interior of the cabin. I know those AA Mad Dogs get all sorts of bad things you don't want to think about running around on them (as I'm sure DL gets), but I still think they're nice.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: totesen
Posted 2012-11-19 17:30:37 and read 6396 times.

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):
So what makes MD90s more efficient than the MD80s?


Well the MD90 has the same CFM engines as the A320, making it as efficient as a new generation aircraft, it is also built on the late 90´s while the MD-82 was built in the early 80´s with late 70´s early 80´s technology. its a two decade difference technology.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-19 17:36:08 and read 6411 times.

Quoting totesen (Reply 36):
Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):
So what makes MD90s more efficient than the MD80s?


Well the MD90 has the same CFM engines as the A320

Not correct. The MD-90 has the IAE V2500. Both the CFM56 and V2500 are options on the A320 family. The CFM56 was never an option on the MD-90.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-11-19 17:43:01 and read 6404 times.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 3):
AA has Md82/83

AA simply can't make money with those planes they had to many and by the time they realized they needed newer efficient planes it was to late. Gotta love US has one of the most fuel efficient planes in the fleet
DL has md88/90 and soon to be 717

DL on the other hand is making money with and is acquiring more for a cheap cost which is enables then to generate more revenue.

Not exactly. AA acquired their fleet of MD's through mergers with Reno Air, TWA, and I think another airline which I cannot remember as well as their own.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
As for operating cost, it should be the same as the MD-82.
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
The MD-88 is an updated MD-82 with a partial CRT cockpit and screwdriver tailcone; DL's first MD-88s were actually converted MD-82s. However, the partial CRT cockpit and screwdriver tailcone later became standard on the MD-82 and MD-83.

Are not the AA MD's updated to have the avionics of an MD 88 but still have the engines of the MD-82/83. There by making them probably less efficient than the MD-88 but have the more modern cockpit of the MD-88. This I got from a pilot I was in conversation with when we were delayed in DFW.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: dtw9
Posted 2012-11-19 18:19:40 and read 6386 times.

Delta BOD has approved the flat panel mod for the MD80/90 fleet. First Mods will start mid to late 2013. Center stack stays with flat panels on either side.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: UpstateDave
Posted 2012-11-19 20:13:11 and read 6315 times.

People, people! AA's MDs are the smaller variant so the higher fuel costs are exacerbated compared to DL's. Its the same problem the 737-600/-700 have to the -800

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: N243NW
Posted 2012-11-19 20:21:29 and read 6315 times.

Quoting UpstateDave (Reply 40):
AA's MDs are the smaller variant so the higher fuel costs are exacerbated compared to DL's.

Unless you're talking about the MD-90, that's not true. The -81, -82, -83 and -88 all have the exact same exterior dimensions and seating capacities.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-11-20 00:39:08 and read 6291 times.

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 6):

lack of JT8s.....MD90 has V2500s....which also powers some A320s.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 34):
DL does not fly the MD88s any farther west than cities like DFW, SAT, OKC, or MCI.
Unlike AA, DL does not even use their MD-88s into hotter/higher airports like DEN, SLC, PHX, TUS, or ABQ. DL has the more capable / efficient (base on route profile) MD-90s and A320s in the same capacity range.

for the record Delta has run ATL-ABQ with 88s. Its fairly new that they have mostly (all?) 90s on the route

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2012-11-20 05:42:36 and read 6245 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 42):
for the record Delta has run ATL-ABQ with 88s. Its fairly new that they have mostly (all?) 90s on the route

Right. However now with the increased size of the MD-90 fleet, they've been able to get the MD-88s off the longer stage length flights. Routes like ATL-ABQ are likely no longer going to see MD88s.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: dtw9
Posted 2012-11-20 06:24:36 and read 6230 times.

What everybody is neglecting to look at in this comparison between AA and Delta's MD-80 fleets is that up until recently AA had higher crew costs then Delta. The second item that needs to be addressed is the cabin configuration. Delta's MD-88's seat 149 and AA's MD-80's seat 140. Delta also uses its MD-80 fleet on shorter stage lengths which has been proven to be more efficent for the type. I'd be curious to see if the lower crew costs at AA have changed the dynamics and that they are now making money with the MD-80's.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-11-20 06:35:05 and read 6227 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 8):
and AA has extended overhead bin space on the DEF side of the airplane.



As does all Delta 88s on the side with 3 seats...

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 8):
DL still sends MD-88s on higher yeilding long-distance flights. AA only does to a very limited extent.



??? The longest 88 routes right now are 2.5 hour missions. Most of the flights on 88s today are 2 hours or less. The longest route out of ATL is to ELP at a little over 1200 miles (about 3 hours in the air ) and then NYC-Florida which are all between 2 hours and 2 hours 30 mins.



Quoting dtw9 (Reply 44):
What everybody is neglecting to look at in this comparison between AA and Delta's MD-80 fleets is that up until recently AA had higher crew costs then Delta. The second item that needs to be addressed is the cabin configuration. Delta's MD-88's seat 149 and AA's MD-80's seat 140. Delta also uses its MD-80 fleet on shorter stage lengths which has been proven to be more efficent for the type. I'd be curious to see if the lower crew costs at AA have changed the dynamics and that they are now making money with the MD-80's.

I doubt they will ever be making money in the sense you are trying to convey due to all the reasons you listed plus the fact that AA is saddled with lease payments.


[Edited 2012-11-20 06:42:45]

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: dtw9
Posted 2012-11-20 07:04:27 and read 6223 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 45):
I doubt they will ever be making money in the sense you are trying to convey due to all the reasons you listed plus the fact that AA is saddled with lease payments.

Yes, but AA renegotiated alot of their lease payments on the MD-80 fleet. Add in lower crew costs and you have the basis of AA possibly making money with the fleet.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: Darksnowynight
Posted 2012-11-20 07:32:21 and read 6207 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 38):

Not exactly. AA acquired their fleet of MD's through mergers with Reno Air, TWA, and I think another airline which I cannot remember as well as their own.

AirCal.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-11-20 07:54:26 and read 6209 times.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 46):
Yes, but AA renegotiated alot of their lease payments on the MD-80 fleet. Add in lower crew costs and you have the basis of AA possibly making money with the fleet.



A lease payment is a lease payment. And i'm not sure what lower crew cost we're talking about. The pilot contract is not ratified as far as I know. F/As I can't speak about. The whole point is moot as they're getting rid of them. Taking on new a/c in their place.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: dtw9
Posted 2012-11-20 08:35:46 and read 6201 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 48):

A lease payment is a lease payment.

Really. So you're trying to tell me that if I lower a lease payment from say 100,000 a month to say 75,000 a month, that its not going to help my bottom line? NOT!

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 48):
The whole point is moot as they're getting rid of them. Taking on new a/c in their place.

Which then makes this whole topic of discussion moot

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: pwm2txlhopper
Posted 2012-11-20 09:40:59 and read 6185 times.

Quoting tonytifao (Thread starter):
Everyone bashes AA MDs, being old, gas guzzlers, etc. I don't see why it's not said the same about DL MDs

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but DL's MD's are newer than AA's. Most of AA's MD's were earlier built models from the early 1980's. DL didn't start getting their MD's until later. Their oldest ships were produced around 1987, with the newest ones produced during the early 1990s'

I've probably worked on every DL MD-88 in the fleet at one point or another? After peeking at countless operating certificates in the cockpits of these aircraft, I noticed quite a few were manufactured during the 1991-1993 time period. A good ten years newer than AA's.

I'll take an "old" loud smoky gas guzzler any day over a 737 or A320!

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: PIEAvantiP180
Posted 2012-11-20 09:50:25 and read 6174 times.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 49):
Really. So you're trying to tell me that if I lower a lease payment from say 100,000 a month to say 75,000 a month, that its not going to help my bottom line? NOT!

It will def help AA internal numbers and improve their economics of that fleet compared what it used to be. But since we are talking about AA MD80's vs DL MD80's it will not help. Lets look at a specific route where both companies compete with the type and I'll choose TPA-JFK since i'm familiar with the route and have flown with both companies.
Let's assume that the MX, crew, fuel and all the other variables are the same from each company but AA has and ill use your numbers as an example 75,000$ lease payment and DL does not. So on that route alone AA would have to make an additional 900,000$ per year just to break even with the running costs of a DL MD88 on the same route. I believe this is what FlyASAGuy was talking about when he said a lease payment is still a lease payment.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-20 10:00:32 and read 6181 times.

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 50):

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but DL's MD's are newer than AA's. Most of AA's MD's were earlier built models from the early 1980's. DL didn't start getting their MD's until later. Their oldest ships were produced around 1987, with the newest ones produced during the early 1990s'

Correct.......the first MD-88 delivered, with the Western "WallyBird" on the fuselage, came thru SLC on it's delivery flight, in '87, shortly after the merger.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2012-11-20 10:23:11 and read 6181 times.

DL is still making payments on their MD-88 fleet, of which about 50% is on operating leases.

Everyone is speaking in hypothetical, since none of us know the exact arrangement and payment of each and every one of DL and AA's MD-80 series aircraft.

That being said, DL did use Ch. 11 to renegotiate their MD-88 leases to more favorable terms and market rates.
It is very likely that AA had been paying above market rates on their MD-80s (similar to the ERJ situation) prior to filing Ch. 11.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: B757forever
Posted 2012-11-20 10:25:42 and read 6167 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 52):
Correct.......the first MD-88 delivered, with the Western "WallyBird" on the fuselage, came thru SLC on it's delivery flight, in '87, shortly after the merger.

That was ship 905 that had the Wally Bird just aft of the L1 door. This aircraft was delivered on April 1, 1987, the official day of the Delta / Western merger.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: BOACCunard
Posted 2012-11-20 10:44:59 and read 6184 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 38):
Are not the AA MD's updated to have the avionics of an MD 88 but still have the engines of the MD-82/83. There by making them probably less efficient than the MD-88 but have the more modern cockpit of the MD-88.

An MD-88 is just an MD-82 with different avionics. It doesn't have different engines and is not any more efficient. For all intents and purposes, an MD-82 and an MD-88 are the same thing.

There are really only 4 variants of the MD-80: MD-81, MD-82/88, MD-83, and MD-87. Boeing even describes them this way on its own "MD-80 Technical Characteristics" page.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: PIEAvantiP180
Posted 2012-11-20 11:02:11 and read 6151 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 53):
DL is still making payments on their MD-88 fleet, of which about 50% is on operating leases.

Thank you for posting that, I did not know that was the case with their MD80's. Just checked DL website and on their corporate information fleet page it states 66 MD80's are owned and 51 are leased.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-20 11:04:00 and read 6146 times.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 54):
This aircraft was delivered on April 1, 1987, the official day of the Delta / Western merger.

Actually, it was on the 2nd. I was off on the first, but was there, working, when it came in on the 2nd. I'm actually glad I wasn't working on the first as it was probably a mess, because the unions had an injunction against DL to prevent the merger from going thru on the first. They had to get Sandra Day O'Conner to stay the injunction. The first FULL day of ops was the 2nd.


Correction.......the delivery celebration probably took place in LAX on the first, but we didn't see it until the 2nd, in SLC.

[Edited 2012-11-20 11:15:14]

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: tommy767
Posted 2012-11-20 11:06:44 and read 6151 times.

DL M88s are pretty average. Mostly clean, safe, well maintained. I would say they are on average a few years younger than an S80 at AA, but AA has much nicer seats in F and Y (although many were delivered in the mid/late 1980s.)

I have never been on an M90 but despite efficiency there is a lot of hate for them flying MSP-West Coast routings.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: flashmeister
Posted 2012-11-20 11:33:45 and read 6172 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 58):
I have never been on an M90 but despite efficiency there is a lot of hate for them flying MSP-West Coast routings.

Never understood the hate for the 90. Comfortable and modern, and if you're seated ahead of the wings, it's spooky how quiet it is.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: mpdpilot
Posted 2012-11-20 11:51:29 and read 6143 times.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 12):
They're not, no. But let's not forget that some of DL's MDs are actually DC-9-50s. Where would those fall on this scale?

When you only have a handful still operating they don't pose a problem like the 180 or so MDs that American has. Also, the DC-9s are completely owned so the lease payments or financing payments that AA has for their MDs, Delta's DC-9s do not have.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 51):
It will def help AA internal numbers and improve their economics of that fleet compared what it used to be. But since we are talking about AA MD80's vs DL MD80's it will not help. Lets look at a specific route where both companies compete with the type and I'll choose TPA-JFK since i'm familiar with the route and have flown with both companies.
Let's assume that the MX, crew, fuel and all the other variables are the same from each company but AA has and ill use your numbers as an example 75,000$ lease payment and DL does not. So on that route alone AA would have to make an additional 900,000$ per year just to break even with the running costs of a DL MD88 on the same route. I believe this is what FlyASAGuy was talking about when he said a lease payment is still a lease payment.

True, but Delta still has payments on their MD-88s, whether that be lease or financing, I am sure they have some still.

Let me try to break down operating cost for AA and DL as a comparison:

AA MD-82 vs. DL MD-90
Ownership Payments: MD-90s were dirt cheap so DL has lower costs here
Crew Payments: With DL's Bankruptcy they probably have slightly lower costs here, though this is changing
Engines: The V2500 on the MD-90 is a high-bypass engine and far more efficient than the JTDs
Capacity: Delta's 160 seats means 20 extra seats over AA. This is a significant amount of revenue.
Maintenance:The MD-90 is a little newer so maintenance is likely slightly lower, though AA does have the economies of scale.

When you look at all of these things, it isn't a real surprise that Delta is making money with their MD-90s verse AA's MD-82s. When you are comparing the MD-88s to the MD-82s they are likely very similar costs, but Delta has far less and seems to put them on shorter routes where fuel is less of an issue.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: MountainFlyer
Posted 2012-11-20 12:10:33 and read 6156 times.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 58):
I have never been on an M90 but despite efficiency there is a lot of hate for them flying MSP-West Coast routings.
Quoting flashmeister (Reply 59):

Never understood the hate for the 90. Comfortable and modern, and if you're seated ahead of the wings, it's spooky how quiet it is.

I can't seem to find it, but a while back the Minneapolis Star Tribune ran an article about the changes at MSP since the DL/NW merger. For some reason, they seemed to be alleging that DL was snubbing MSP by taking away the "newer" Airbus aircraft and replacing them with "older" planes. Ironically, much of the NW A320 fleet is older than the MD-90 fleet.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-20 16:14:04 and read 6124 times.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 61):
I can't seem to find it, but a while back the Minneapolis Star Tribune ran an article about the changes at MSP since the DL/NW merger. For some reason, they seemed to be alleging that DL was snubbing MSP by taking away the "newer" Airbus aircraft and replacing them with "older" planes. Ironically, much of the NW A320 fleet is older than the MD-90 fleet.

Never let facts get in the way of a good story.  

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: luckyone
Posted 2012-11-20 16:36:28 and read 6107 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 57):
They had to get Sandra Day O'Conner to stay the injunction.

Perhaps off topic, but could you elaborate on that please? I'm not saying you're wrong, it just sounds funny that a Supreme Court Justice would, on her own, have that power.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: mayor
Posted 2012-11-20 17:38:30 and read 6026 times.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 63):
Perhaps off topic, but could you elaborate on that please? I'm not saying you're wrong, it just sounds funny that a Supreme Court Justice would, on her own, have that power.

Unfortunately, I don't remember all the particulars, but as a Judge, she could, on her own, if requested, issue a stay.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: luckyone
Posted 2012-11-20 17:55:08 and read 5994 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 64):
Unfortunately, I don't remember all the particulars, but as a Judge, she could, on her own, if requested, issue a stay.

Thanks. I've done a little reading into it...Interesting to say the least.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-11-20 19:05:07 and read 5934 times.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 59):
Never understood the hate for the 90. Comfortable and modern, and if you're seated ahead of the wings, it's spooky how quiet it is.

I was in the very last row a couple weeks ago DEN-ATL and even right next to the engines, they aren't nearly as bad as the 88s. In first class? Forget about it. You hear that sweep hum on spool up and then that's it until you land.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-11-20 20:53:06 and read 5818 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 45):
I doubt they will ever be making money in the sense you are trying to convey due to all the reasons you listed plus the fact that AA is saddled with lease payments.

....aA's plan is simply take money from labor to make money. IMHO they are going to up much like EA. Employees could work for free and the company would still lose money......but thats OT.

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 50):
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but DL's MD's are newer than AA's. Most of AA's MD's were earlier built models from the early 1980's. DL didn't start getting their MD's until later. Their oldest ships were produced around 1987, with the newest ones produced during the early 1990s'

You would be right.

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 59):

Never understood the hate for the 90. Comfortable and modern, and if you're seated ahead of the wings, it's spooky how quiet it is.

A good bit of people lack the understanding that it has A320 engines and fuel burn comparable to the 320/737. They also lack the understanding that the M90 is the same generation as the A320 and just a tad older than a 737NG.
that and the new config sucks(and it sucks equally on the 88s). Also sucks that Delta is pulling a Northwest and not adding any IFE to the birds and flying 3-5 hour flights with them. (but doesn't matter when compared to the 32S)

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: BOACCunard
Posted 2012-11-20 22:15:29 and read 5792 times.

AA's MD-80s are not older than DL's.

DL's entire MD-80 fleet was built new for DL between 1987 and 1993. Nearly all remain in service.

AA's own new-built MD-80s were delivered between 1983 and 1992, but virtually all of those delivered between 1983 and 1986 have already been retired, along with a substantial number of those delivered later. The remaining aircraft were nearly all delivered between 1987 and 1992, with a tiny handful of 1985-1986 deliveries remaining in the fleet (6 aircraft, 5 of which are from 1986). In other words, of the MD-80s delivered new to AA, those remaining in the fleet are almost exactly the same age as DL's.

TW's original, smaller batch of new-built MD-80s was delivered between 1983 and 1988. It seems that only 1 of these aircraft is still with AA, and it was built in 1987, the same as DL's oldest MD-80s.

TW acquired a number of second-hand MD-80s between 1993 and 2001, which were built for various airlines between 1981 and 1992. Many of these have already been retired, but the ones that remain were built between 1987 and 1992... Again, almost exactly the same as DL's aircraft.

TW's second, larger batch of new-built MD-80s was built between 1993 and 1999, and mostly between 1997 and 1999. As one would expect, these quite young aircraft (the same age as AA's oldest 738s!) mostly remain in the AA fleet. TW took delivery of almost all of the last MD-80s built, including the last one produced in 1999 (the last Douglas/MD airliner built except for 717s). Obviously, these aircraft are newer than any of DL's MD-80s, and in fact they are basically the exact same age as DL's MD-90s, though of course they are much "older" in terms of technology.

AA also inherited some MD-80s from QQ (including some examples of the MD-87, the DC-9-50/717-sized variant AA otherwise didn't operate). None of these aircraft remain in the AA fleet, however. (AA also inherited a few MD-90s from QQ, which like the MD-87s did not fit the AA fleet at all and were quickly retired.)

So the bottom line is that AA's current MD-80 fleet is made up of aircraft built between 1985 and 1999, and mostly between 1987 and 1999, while DL's is made up of aircraft built between 1987 and 1993. In no way can AA's MD-80 fleet currently be called older than DL's, and it is probably continually getting younger as AA's MD-80 retirements skew toward the older aircraft that were delivered new to AA rather than the newer ones delivered to TW in the 1990s that make up the second-largest MD-80 contingent in the AA fleet.

Of course, this probably doesn't mean very much in terms of efficiency or profitability or anything like that (whereas the difference between an MD-80 and an MD-90 or 717 does), but it's not correct to say that AA's MD-80s are older than DL's, or really even than DL's combined MD-80/MD-90 fleet.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2012-11-21 05:16:20 and read 5621 times.

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 68):
Of course, this probably doesn't mean very much in terms of efficiency or profitability or anything like that (whereas the difference between an MD-80 and an MD-90 or 717 does), but it's not correct to say that AA's MD-80s are older than DL's, or really even than DL's combined MD-80/MD-90 fleet.

This is a very true and overlooked a.net stereotype. The fact is that AA has been steadily retiring their oldest MD-80s now to the point where the oldest active aircraft are in the same range as DL's oldest MD-88s.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: BOACCunard
Posted 2012-11-21 08:06:42 and read 5496 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 69):
This is a very true and overlooked a.net stereotype. The fact is that AA has been steadily retiring their oldest MD-80s now to the point where the oldest active aircraft are in the same range as DL's oldest MD-88s.

And given that even before that, AA's oldest MD-80s (except maybe a few really early ones TW acquired second-hand), were at most 3-4 years older than DL's... Not exactly a huge difference. Is there that big a difference between an MD-80 made in 1983 and one made in 1987? It's not like we're talking about differences of decades here.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2012-11-21 09:14:23 and read 5415 times.

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 70):
And given that even before that, AA's oldest MD-80s (except maybe a few really early ones TW acquired second-hand), were at most 3-4 years older than DL's... Not exactly a huge difference. Is there that big a difference between an MD-80 made in 1983 and one made in 1987? It's not like we're talking about differences of decades here.

Exactly.

Although they AA ones are at the point where they've likely been through one additional (and expensive) heavy maintenance cycle.

That being said, DL plans to keep their MD-88s at least through the 2017-2019 timeframe.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-11-21 20:23:21 and read 5175 times.

Great topic with a lot I can contribute to. Regrettably, due to business, I am late to this thread. But hopefully given the interest, a.net nation will still take notice.
Here is my knowledge:

Q: What is the difference between AA MD-82/83s and DL MD-88/90s?

A: In regards to the MD-80 series, DL’s MD-88 fleet is generally superior in performance and operating costs. The MD-88s have all of the final upgrades that were offered by McDonnell Douglas through the life of the MD-80 program.

This includes:

-JT8D-219s
-reduced drag screwdriver tail-cone
-low-drag flap hinge fairings & pylon fairings
-EFIS digital glass cockpit
-upgraded interior/wider aisle
-composite materials

From ship 912/913 and on, all were built with greatest number of composite panels. This is something than cannot be improved with a mod on other frames. For this reason, when it is time to retire the fleet, the first batch of original MD-82s, (see profile photo), will exit first.



On the contrary, except for the tail-cone, AA’s ~110 active MD-82s do not have these upgrades listed above. (Some of the latter 100 MD-82 deliveries received the -219 mod as well but others have the -217C).

AA has ~80 active MD-83s in service. As I have noted previously on this forum, the ex-TW ships were given full PIP treatment and are essentially “MD-88ERS”.


Looking ahead, with DL now further committing to the MD-88 longer term – which is established in the recent flight-deck mod go-ahead & complete SK MD inventory purchase – I can see the 40 late-build TW frames as an opportunity-buy for DL. Including for active service. I’m not guaranteeing this will happen, but from what I know and what I’ve seen, I think this is a legit possibility. For fleet strategy, this would not be to grow the fleet, but to backfill higher cycle retirements and maintain the most beneficial economies of scale in numbers and support.

[Edited 2012-11-21 20:24:52]

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: B727FA
Posted 2012-11-21 21:10:31 and read 5101 times.

The Aircraft Fleet Information summary shows 50 leased and 67 owned...minor point, but it's out there.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-11-21 21:23:51 and read 5103 times.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 5):
At the end of the day, I don't think that AA MDs are the problem, I think they are unsustainable.
Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 12):
Again, the 80's aren't the problem. It's their usage and their lease back.

      Exactly. The S80s alone are not the problem for AA. AA circumstance is the real issue. Also, AA is paying fair leases on these aircraft, but at one time they were OWNED OUTRIGHT. For DL, 67 ARE owned outright and the remainder are on very favorable leases gained during bankruptcy restructure. Being in far worse shape with far less leverage, AA could not obtain terms as favorable.

Historically, the other MD-80 hurdle AA produced was over-reliance on the fleet type. Especially post TW acquisition, ~350 active from 2001-03.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 8):
I think the big difference in philosophy is how they're being deployed. DL still sends MD-88s on higher yeilding long-distance flights. AA only does to a very limited extent.

Actually it's the opposite. AA still flies many 3-4 hr legs out of ORD. Including: PHX, TUS, LAS, PVR, PSP, FLL, TPA, and LAX (once daily).

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 26):
pretty impressive for a plane (the MD90) who's first flight was almost 20 years ago. Think about that, years before the 737NGs took to the skies, MDC more or less was building the MD90 that preformed as well as the 738 and still compares pretty evenly with it all these years later.

Absolutely; the MD-90 is competitive on sub 4 hr legs. I consulted with MDC during the MD-90's development. There were A LOT of potential orders left on the table, done dilberately to steer the company towards acquisition. I think the MD-90-30's production would have exceeded 500 frames by 2005...

Quoting brilondon (Reply 38):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
The MD-88 is an updated MD-82 with a partial CRT cockpit and screwdriver tailcone; DL's first MD-88s were actually converted MD-82s. However, the partial CRT cockpit and screwdriver tailcone later became standard on the MD-82 and MD-83.

Are not the AA MD's updated to have the avionics of an MD 88 but still have the engines of the MD-82/83. There by making them probably less efficient than the MD-88 but have the more modern cockpit of the MD-88. This I got from a pilot I was in conversation with when we were delayed in DFW.

Not exactly. All legacy AA MD-82/83s have the analog flightdeck. The remaining ~40% of the fleet are ex-TW MD-83s which were delivered with the EFIS. All -83s have -219s, the -82s are a mix of -219 & -217C.

Don't always believe the pilot; he/she was incorrect on this one.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 53):
DL is still making payments on their MD-88 fleet, of which about 50% is on operating leases.

Approx 57% are owned outright and 43% receiving payments.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-11-21 22:19:43 and read 5055 times.

usafdo, for such a statement, please clarify who/what you are referring to. My points made in reply 72 & 74 are based around facts and experience.

Now.., if you're referring to earlier posts, very well than.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: usafdo
Posted 2012-11-21 22:21:52 and read 5049 times.

In the past, people have been able to insert into posts the real, actual airline data.

The real costs on operating the different ACFT ( a comprehensive break down on the hourly cost).

That's what I was hoping to see....

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-11-25 18:21:51 and read 4645 times.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 72):
Q: What is the difference between AA MD-82/83s and DL MD-88/90s?

A: In regards to the MD-80 series, DL’s MD-88 fleet is generally superior in performance and operating costs. The MD-88s have all of the final upgrades that were offered by McDonnell Douglas through the life of the MD-80 program.

This includes:

-JT8D-219s
-reduced drag screwdriver tail-cone
-low-drag flap hinge fairings & pylon fairings
-EFIS digital glass cockpit
-upgraded interior/wider aisle
-composite materials

Many thanks for explaining this. If you will excuse my ignorance, I take it that the effect of these improvements is that the M88 has slightly lower fuel burn than the S80? If so, are you aware of what the average difference is?

Growing up in the United Kingdom and Australia, the MD-80 family was never an aircraft type I gave much thought to. It's great to see that they're still going strong over here, and no doubt will remain in service with AA and DL for several years yet.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-11-27 20:35:31 and read 4124 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 77):
Many thanks for explaining this. If you will excuse my ignorance, I take it that the effect of these improvements is that the M88 has slightly lower fuel burn than the S80? If so, are you aware of what the average difference is?

You're welcome RyanairGuru. In the late '80s McDonnell Douglas touted that a brand new MD-88 would have up to 5.5% improved fuel efficiency from the first MD-81s off the line from 1980. The difference between DL's MD-88s and AA's MD-82/83s is probably closer to 2-3.5%; or equal, in the case of the later build TW frames.

Quoting usafdo (Reply 76):

In the past, people have been able to insert into posts the real, actual airline data.

The real costs on operating the different ACFT ( a comprehensive break down on the hourly cost).

That's what I was hoping to see....

So you're looking for someone to violate their non-disclosure agreement and share intellectual property on an open forum...  
Quoting B757forever (Reply 54):

That was ship 905 that had the Wally Bird just aft of the L1 door. This aircraft was delivered on April 1, 1987, the official day of the Delta / Western merger.

   Indeed it was ship 905.

DL MD-88, ship 905, in pre-mod MD-82 form. The pointed tail-cone confirms the uniqueness of this photo.


Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 70):
Is there that big a difference between an MD-80 made in 1983 and one made in 1987? It's not like we're talking about differences of decades here.

The final, and most significant wave of MD-80 advancements, were developed from 1987-1993. This includes upgrades which were taken from the MD-88 & MD-90's development (while the MD-90 was still a paper airplane). From 1993, all upgrades became standard unless requested by the airline, i.e. AZ. From 1996, every MD-80 built was delivered with full MD-88 PIPs, and aux tanks for the MD-83s.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-11-27 20:52:56 and read 4094 times.

Whatever happened to the mod (don't even remember what it was) that was suppose to increase fuel efficiency quite a bit?

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-11-27 21:05:16 and read 4091 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 79):

There was a thrust reverser mod certified, which AA installed on a single MD-82 for a 90 day trial run. Unfortunately, from AA's findings, the results were not great enough to warrant retro-fitting the entire fleet, and they have passed on the mod.

The drag reduction packages may have a better chance with the MD-90, given that most of the secondhand aircraft acquired by DL were UNDER 20k cycles. (The MD-90 is certified for 60k).

But DL are going all-in on the flightdeck mod, so who knows if there is budget left for an exterior mod.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: PIEAvantiP180
Posted 2012-11-27 22:17:16 and read 3998 times.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 80):

Thanks for clarifying that. I always thought that the fuel burn savings were good but AA decided against the idea because they were going to retire their MD80's so soon that it did not warrant the investment of about 500K per plane I believe.

On your second statement do you know how much more efficient an MD80 would be with the available aero package and how much do the mods cost?

[Edited 2012-11-27 22:19:43]

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: ckfred
Posted 2012-11-28 08:07:41 and read 3838 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 27):
Meanwhile, AAL is buying jets they can't afford and putting fuel they also can't afford in the jets they already have.

Before the bankruptcy filing, you would have a point worth discussing. With Chapter 11, including new labor contracts, reduced head counts, additional outsourcing, and renegotiation of leases and debt, AA can easily afford the 738s, the A319s, the A321s, the 773s, and the 789s.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-11-28 21:27:47 and read 3580 times.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 81):
On your second statement do you know how much more efficient an MD80 would be with the available aero package and how much do the mods cost?

At least 3.5% per the certification tests and about $460k per aircraft. At $3/gal, it would pay for itself within 16-18 months.

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: N737AA
Posted 2012-11-29 05:25:02 and read 3472 times.

Quoting pwm2txlhopper (Reply 50):
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but DL's MD's are newer than AA's. Most of AA's MD's were earlier built models from the early 1980's. DL didn't start getting their MD's until later. Their oldest ships were produced around 1987, with the newest ones produced during the early 1990s'
Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 68):
TW's second, larger batch of new-built MD-80s was built between 1993 and 1999, and mostly between 1997 and 1999. As one would expect, these quite young aircraft (the same age as AA's oldest 738s!) mostly remain in the AA fleet. TW took delivery of almost all of the last MD-80s built, including the last one produced in 1999 (the last Douglas/MD airliner built except for 717s)

BOACC is correct, the majority of the super80's on the property are the exTWA variants that were delivered around the same time the AA 737NG's were. TWA got the last MD80 off the production line and it now flys in AA colors.

N737AA

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2012-11-29 17:09:01 and read 3305 times.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 80):
But DL are going all-in on the flightdeck mod, so who knows if there is budget left for an exterior mod.

What are the realized savings with this flight deck mod. Ability to fly more fuel efficient routes?

Quoting ckfred (Reply 82):
AA can easily afford the 738s, the A319s, the A321s, the 773s, and the 789s.

So easy that they turned about ad did a sale/lease-back on the 77Ws?

Topic: RE: AA Vs DL - MD80/83/88/90s
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-11-29 20:46:34 and read 3183 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 85):
What are the realized savings with this flight deck mod. Ability to fly more fuel efficient routes?

Approximately 450 lbs of fuel on a 750 nm leg. At 1680 legs, the annual savings is just short of $340k at $3/gal. And to correct my above post, positive ROI actually begins after 14 months.

Quoting N737AA (Reply 84):
BOACC is correct, the majority of the super80's on the property are the exTWA variants that were delivered around the same time the AA 737NG's were.

No, not the majority. About 2/3rds of AA's active MD-80 fleet are the original deliveries from 1986-92. The late build ex-TW aircraft only account for 40 frames.


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