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Topic: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: okAY
Posted 2012-11-27 23:33:19 and read 9545 times.

Hello all,

Finnair has announced a new long haul route starting in Summer 2013. AY will start flights to Hanoi in Vietnam. By doing so, it will be the first European airline to serve this city from Europe.

With this move AY is following its strategy to be the fast airlink between Europe and Asia.

AY Press Release

Great news for AY! I wonder which aircraft type is going to be used? Does this mean a new frame needs to be acquired or is there space in schedules with the ones AY has at the moment?

okAY

[Edited 2012-11-27 23:34:25]

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: ba319-131
Posted 2012-11-27 23:40:27 and read 9524 times.

Superb news!

Finnair won't be alone in this market place for very long, I expect other European carriers to be adding either HAN or SGN to the network in the future.

I suspect they will need a 343 for this route, perhaps a tad far for their 333's?

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-11-27 23:43:50 and read 9511 times.

Quoting okAY (Thread starter):
it will be the first European airline to serve this city from Europe.

Not quite, LOT beat them to this honour.

The route has subsequently been suspended, but WAW-HAN was the first flight to Hanoi with a Euro carrier.


Correction: AF was first with CDG-HAN, also pulled.

[Edited 2012-11-27 23:46:55]

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2012-11-27 23:50:58 and read 9456 times.

Sounds like HAN has been a struggle for European carriers so far.

Will have to wait and see how AY go with this route.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: iksu
Posted 2012-11-28 00:07:50 and read 9377 times.

Hi,

I might as well make this my first post after lurking around a.net for quite some time.

As per information in Finnair intranet, A330 will be used to operate this route. Flight times are HEL HAN 10h 10min and return 10h 50min. This will not be capacity increase as flight will operate with aircraft released from shuffling around summer schedule. Initially this will be a seasonal route only, operational from summer 2013 to 27OCT13.

I hope we do well with this 12th Asian destination!

Brgds, Iksu

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: okAY
Posted 2012-11-28 00:08:19 and read 9370 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 2):

I stand corrected. I meant to write the only (for the time being) Euro-carrier to serve Hanoi.

okAY

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: okAY
Posted 2012-11-28 00:14:05 and read 9341 times.

I am a little surprised of the choice,as mentioned here a few airlines have tried it with little success. Now, I am sure AY has made their homework and done market analysis to see if the profit is there or not. Have they found a market others have missed? I had been waiting for a new long haul announcement from AY for some time now, but I must admit I had my bet on KUL.

okAY

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: smbukas
Posted 2012-11-28 00:33:06 and read 9269 times.

LOT tried Hanoi with 767 from WAW and OK served Vietnam with A320 on a technical stop.

Both stopped. AFAIK, load factors were good, but not enough yield.

The thing is, that Vietnamese populations in Poland, Czech Republic and around are quite big and most of them now using hubs in the west to get there (FRA, AMS, MUC, CDG, etc.) or TK to Ho Chi Minh City. Finnair is really strong in Eastern Europe feeding HEL so I think, they believe they just become best available option in this market. They are able to do this route with existing fleet so maybe they will make money from seasonal route even with not so high yield.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2012-11-28 00:39:18 and read 9239 times.

Quoting smbukas (Reply 7):
A320 on a technical stop

Now that sounds painful.

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 6):
I had been waiting for a new long haul announcement from AY for some time now, but I must admit I had my bet on KUL.

I thought they would too, especially with MH joining OW.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: BreninTW
Posted 2012-11-28 01:03:06 and read 9172 times.

Instead of drawing on feed from Europe, could AY be planning on connecting from the East Coast US? It would make some sense to travel from East Coast US to HAN via HEL, rather than flying through LAX.

According to the Great Circle Mapper, NYC - HEL - HAN is approximately 2,000 miles shorter than NYC - LAX - HAN.

(Sorry, can't get a workable link to post)

I can't see any point in going north from Eastern Europe to HEL and then to HAN when you could fly via one of the Middle Eastern hubs.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: vlad1971
Posted 2012-11-28 01:10:21 and read 9132 times.

I thought SU is flying to Hanoi as well from Moscow ....

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: okAY
Posted 2012-11-28 03:47:02 and read 8743 times.

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 10):

That depends on if you consider SU a Euro-carrier or not.

Is Russia in Europe or Asia?

okAY

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: smbukas
Posted 2012-11-28 03:49:06 and read 8735 times.

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 9):
I can't see any point in going north from Eastern Europe to HEL and then to HAN when you could fly via one of the Middle Eastern hubs.

The same - it is shorter way. PRG/WAW - HEL - HAN is 500 nm shorter then PRG/WAW - DXB - HAN. And still, MEB3 is not so strong in Eastern Europe. Emirates and Qatar is coming to WAW only next year. No MEB3 in Baltics, other Poland cities except WAW, BUD has only Qatar, etc.

Even LON-HEL-HAN is 900nm shorter then LON-DXB-HAN. That is the model Finnair business plan is based on.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: okAY
Posted 2012-11-28 03:58:56 and read 8699 times.

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 9):
Instead of drawing on feed from Europe, could AY be planning on connecting from the East Coast US? It would make some sense to travel from East Coast US to HAN via HEL, rather than flying through LAX.

According to the Great Circle Mapper, NYC - HEL - HAN is approximately 2,000 miles shorter than NYC - LAX - HAN.

(Sorry, can't get a workable link to post)

North-America-Asia through HEL has been discussed for years. Let's see what AY has stored. But I think they might want to wait for the economic sitution to improve a little in the US before and if they are to make a move in that direction.

okAY

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: JU068
Posted 2012-11-28 04:08:32 and read 8656 times.

Quoting okAY (Reply 11):
That depends on if you consider SU a Euro-carrier or not.

Yes, Aeroflot is a European carrier, especially since Turkish Airlines is considered one.


How do they expect to make money if LOT didn't? (I suppose that LOT has a cheaper cost structure)

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: Fly2yyz
Posted 2012-11-28 04:18:17 and read 8617 times.

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 13):

AY has already been selling North America to Asia already albeit it had not the greatest connections and one way was with BA. I was going to grab a ticket at a reasonable fare from YYZ to ICN, but then the fare jumped on me and I ended up going to Asia via another untraditional routing.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: HELyes
Posted 2012-11-28 04:57:23 and read 8505 times.

Quoting okAY (Reply 6):

Same here, I expected KUL or India when heard rumors something new coming up. Hanoi sounds a bit risky but anyway good to get a new LH route in HEL, even if seasonal.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: g2scandinavia
Posted 2012-11-28 05:07:03 and read 8473 times.

I think it's a great move for Finnair and probably a service that are more aimed to serve Nordic passengers rather than Europe in general. In that way, I think the failure of LOT and CSA has little relevant as the average income and travel pattern are of significant difference from the Nordic countries. This part of Asia is a huge market from FI/SE/DK/NO.
Thailand is booming from all the Nordic countries with ridiculously high capacity and an demand that seems to never end. Vietnam could easily surf on the same wave and I think that's what Finnair are thinking too. It's a "new" destination for travelers loving Thailand who want's to crank up their vacation with something more exotic. Don't forget that many Nordic passengers have visited Thailand several times and that Vietnam are seen as a "new" Thailand for those who are seeking a new taste of Asia.
The success of a carrier depends on it's ability to build it owns markets. I therefore think it's very vice of Finnair to launch Vietnam. Also when it comes to the future competition with Norwegian who most definitely have stated that Vietnam will be launched from OSL and ARN in the near future.

My only thought is why they launch it for the summer season? Would not the demand be greater during the winter?

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: HELyes
Posted 2012-11-28 05:12:08 and read 8446 times.

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 15):
I was going to grab a ticket at a reasonable fare from YYZ to ICN

I would stay out of the 757 they have on HEL-YYZ, terribly cramped charter-type configuration, it's a shame they use it in scheduled service. Luckily they don't have many 757's left.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: twa@fra
Posted 2012-11-28 05:38:26 and read 8353 times.

With the increasing FDI into VN, means a lot of factories of blue chip companies opening as well as their supplies, I'm sure business travel must have increased quite a bit, which is a totally different market as VFR OK and to a certain extend LOT was focused on. Anyhow with TG,SQ alikes nearby, a tough market / area IMO

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: babybus
Posted 2012-11-28 06:51:01 and read 8147 times.

Is Hanoi another one of these sex routes?

This will be interesting to watch as I can't see it surviving very long. Anyone for that area would probably connect through Asia hubs.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-28 08:19:11 and read 7631 times.

HEL officially has the most impressive Asia network of any city not in Asia!

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: LJ
Posted 2012-11-28 09:41:58 and read 7219 times.

Quoting g2scandinavia (Reply 17):
I think the failure of LOT and CSA has little relevant as the average income and travel pattern are of significant difference from the Nordic countries.

However, the failure of AF should mean something. If AF can't make HAN work why would AY be able to do so? Yes, VN flies CDG-HAN (and LGW/FRA-HAN) but they have a lower cost base than AY.

Quoting twa@fra (Reply 19):
With the increasing FDI into VN, means a lot of factories of blue chip companies opening as well as their supplies, I'm sure business travel must have increased quite a bit, which is a totally different market as VFR OK and to a certain extend LOT was focused on. Anyhow with TG,SQ alikes nearby, a tough market / area IMO

AFAIK Ho Chi Minh City is the main economic city in Vietnam, hence why it sees more air service.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2012-11-28 11:58:28 and read 6679 times.

Quoting iksu (Reply 4):
Initially this will be a seasonal route only, operational from summer 2013 to 27OCT13.

Interesting season - Finnair will be flying during the hottest part of the year! I would think - for leisure markets anyway - that the winter months would have greater demand. I'm no businessman, but I don't know that I'd want to fly to Vietnam during the summer!

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: AYVN
Posted 2012-11-28 13:40:15 and read 6237 times.

I think it's quite ok season for Hanoi. It will be hot and humid in Jun - Oct, but during European winter, it's rather freezing in Hanoi. Actually anything north of Da Nang is quite cool in winter time, not good for heat seeking tourists. During winter season SGN would be the place to go.

What I would like to know is how AY is going to fill business seats? All economy would fly full every time as many Vietnamese living in Europe are real bargain hunters...

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: HELyes
Posted 2012-11-28 15:48:40 and read 6039 times.

Quoting AYVN (Reply 24):
What I would like to know is how AY is going to fill business seats?

HAN probably gets their newest A333's with most Y seats. And with the latest fully flat seats in Business Class  
In winter these new birds often fly long haul charter routes... kind of odd but seems to work.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2012-11-28 22:28:23 and read 5259 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 25):
HAN probably gets their newest A333's with most Y seats. And with the latest fully flat seats in Business Class  
In winter these new birds often fly long haul charter routes... kind of odd but seems to work.

I'm guessing this is purely because they have more economy seats? I'm sure the J class travellers on the normal routes would prefer those seats?

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: twa@fra
Posted 2012-11-28 22:54:13 and read 5333 times.

Quoting LJ (Reply 22):
AFAIK Ho Chi Minh City is the main economic city in Vietnam, hence why it sees more air service.

I do not have any figures on hand of the split between north and south VN, as I was in Hanoi the last time I was just really impressed by all these new factories, a lot of IT/computer related (Canon etc..), Also judging from the business I'm in (logistics), Automotive also seems to be stronger in the north, even heard from fashion suppliers that it is getting hard for them to find workers, because IT & Automotive offers a much better working environment .....

still, I wonder that will be enough to fill that flight yet.....

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: HELyes
Posted 2012-11-29 05:18:18 and read 4939 times.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 26):
I'm guessing this is purely because they have more economy seats? I'm sure the J class travellers on the normal routes would prefer those seats?

Yes the number of Y seats is the reason, I wish all their wide bodies had the new J-class seats. I once flew a 6h charter flight HEL-LPA in the new J-class of AY 333, was a rather exceptional leisure flight experience.

The HAN route probably gets this:

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: HELyes
Posted 2012-11-29 06:42:51 and read 4846 times.

Timetables:

AY097 146 HEL 16:30 - HAN 06:40 A333 10h10min
AY098 257 HAN 08:25 - HEL 15:20 A333 10h55min

Price examples Jun 2013, return Y from AY website:

HEL-HAN EUR 641
PRG-HAN EUR 595
AMS-HAN EUR 732

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2012-11-29 06:49:24 and read 4819 times.

Just as an Aside where does finnair usually send those A330s with the flat beds?
They're a good way to get from Australia to Northern Europe in J at a reasonable price
and i'm taking somebody who probably wants a flat bed.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: HELyes
Posted 2012-11-29 07:12:32 and read 4782 times.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 30):
Just as an Aside where does finnair usually send those A330s with the flat beds?
They're a good way to get from Australia to Northern Europe in J at a reasonable price
and i'm taking somebody who probably wants a flat bed.

From Australia the best chance to get AY flat bed is via BKK, rarely seen on HEL-HKG. HEL-SIN is only served by A343 due the distance.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: Lufthansa747
Posted 2012-11-29 07:12:47 and read 4773 times.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 30):
Just as an Aside where does finnair usually send those A330s with the flat beds?

BKK HKT KBV LPA

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2012-11-29 07:19:57 and read 4771 times.

So what year round BKK is basically the only scheduled city that regularly gets them?

Any plans to update SIN or HKG to it. Ex Australia they are the two easiest Asian hubs to get to.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: okAY
Posted 2012-11-29 08:17:28 and read 4712 times.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 33):

JFK gets exclusively the A330 but that won't help in your case.

okAY

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: HELyes
Posted 2012-11-29 10:00:46 and read 4631 times.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 33):

In Asia BKK gives the best chances, served 2x daily in winter with mixed fleet. It looks also DEL gets flat bed flights this winter, didn't check other routes.
AY's online booking shows codes for the different configurations in J: 333=angled seats, 330=flat beds. Their 343's hardly get flat beds.

[Edited 2012-11-29 10:16:43]

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: doug_Or
Posted 2012-11-29 10:15:51 and read 4610 times.

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 9):
Instead of drawing on feed from Europe, could AY be planning on connecting from the East Coast US? It would make some sense to travel from East Coast US to HAN via HEL, rather than flying through LAX.

According to the Great Circle Mapper, NYC - HEL - HAN is approximately 2,000 miles shorter than NYC - LAX - HAN.

(Sorry, can't get a workable link to post)

I can't see any point in going north from Eastern Europe to HEL and then to HAN when you could fly via one of the Middle Eastern hubs.

No necessarily a fair comparison since this wouldn't be the preferred traffic flow, in fact no one even flies LAX-HAN.

NYC-HEL-HAN is about 200 or so miles longer than going via ICN/TPE/HKG, so it could definitely be competitive, though I'm not sure if there is much traffic. My understanding is that most Vietnamese traffic in the US originates from the LA basin and East Bay area.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: okAY
Posted 2012-11-29 23:46:31 and read 4309 times.

Quoting g2scandinavia (Reply 17):

True about Vietnam becoming more and more popular among the holiday package travellers from the Nordic countries. But still the destination is a mystery, as AY will be offering charter route to Saigon on A330. Why not make the Saigon route like Toronto-route is, half/half scheduled/charter -service?

When it comes to comparing LO and CSA and AY, one has to remember AY has much more experience and "name" in Asian markets than the two airlines, this must count for something.

okAY

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2012-11-30 16:25:07 and read 3944 times.

Am i correct in guessing that this means no additional Chinese service in 2013? I had heard very credible rumours of a western Chinese city being launched in 2013.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: HELyes
Posted 2012-11-30 17:26:59 and read 3911 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 38):
Am i correct in guessing that this means no additional Chinese service in 2013? I had heard very credible rumours of a western Chinese city being launched in 2013.

I think it's possible we'll see a new (Chinese) destination next winter season, especially if HAN remains seasonal. Not sure how Chongqing is performing, there are often cheap tickets available.

Topic: RE: Finnair To Hanoi In 2013
Username: BuyantUkhaa
Posted 2012-12-05 00:25:55 and read 3441 times.

Quoting smbukas (Reply 7):
served Vietnam with A320 on a technical stop.

Where was this stop?


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