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Topic: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: g500
Posted 2012-11-27 07:03:01 and read 30188 times.

Wow.... Airbus jabs Boeing "below the belt"....


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...s-planemaker-rivalry-sharpens.html

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-27 07:05:40 and read 30279 times.

Whatever. Listen in on some of John Leahey's presentations some time (they're on YouTube) and you'll see that Geppetto is pulling his strings, as well.  

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: CalebWilliams
Posted 2012-11-27 07:25:42 and read 30072 times.

Quote:
“The truth about these claims is that neither side knows,” said Richard Aboulafia, vice president of consultant Teal Group in Fairfax, Virginia. “These are engine-driven aircraft,” and until they have been fully developed and start tests, it’s impossible to know what they can offer, he said.

That's all that need be said.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: PlaneInsomniac
Posted 2012-11-27 07:43:34 and read 29930 times.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
Wow.... Airbus jabs Boeing "below the belt"....

Is this for real? Shameless, unnecessary, and embarrassing - for Airbus. Aren't there some wing cracks to fix in Toulouse?

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: LY777
Posted 2012-11-27 07:56:41 and read 29793 times.

That's childish IMO. Airbus must be jealous that Boeing is about to rebecome the leader

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2012-11-27 07:56:50 and read 29786 times.

I hope Boeing sees this and files a lawsuit against Airbus for product defamation.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: LostSound
Posted 2012-11-27 07:57:37 and read 29781 times.

It's not personal, it's business.

Boeing and Airbus have been jabbing each-other for years.
Why this is important, I don't really know.

Doesn't change my view about either manufacturers.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2012-11-27 08:11:17 and read 29656 times.

The article states that Airbus is concerned that "less sophisticated airlines" might actually believe the Boeing sales pitch and not visit the Airbus showroom. Yet, in the same article Airbus claims its 320 family and 380 are market leaders and the 320NEO has about 600 more orders on the books than does the 737MAX. It seems Airbus is doing a good job reaching the airlines.

Also, honestly, any airline that buys a billion dollars worth of planes based solely on print advertising proffered by either manufacturer deserves what it gets. I can't believe any airline would pay the slightest bit of attention to such advertising.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: wedgetail737
Posted 2012-11-27 08:14:23 and read 29591 times.

This is coming from a company whose executives have been investigated and arrested for insider trading, illegal subs and bribery.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: g500
Posted 2012-11-27 08:16:51 and read 29562 times.

Agree, this is business, not personal

However, this ad SAYS A LOT MORE ABOUT AIRBUS THAN IT DOES ABOUT BOEING...

Airbus is showing their frustration. They've been able to beat Boeing in the narrow-body market, but as far as the wide-body market, Airbus will never build a more succesful plane than the 777 pax/freighter.. And the 787 looks like it might be a winner as well

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: mham001
Posted 2012-11-27 08:19:44 and read 29533 times.

Next time the A people come whining about some statement the Boeing salesman said on an obscure blog.....

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: FI642
Posted 2012-11-27 09:00:07 and read 29189 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
However, this ad SAYS A LOT MORE ABOUT AIRBUS THAN IT DOES ABOUT BOEING...

Airbus is showing their frustration. They've been able to beat Boeing in the narrow-body market, but as far as the wide-body market, Airbus will never build a more succesful plane than the 777 pax/freighter.. And the 787 looks like it might be a winner as well

Well said.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: frmrCapCadet
Posted 2012-11-27 09:11:36 and read 29100 times.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 8):
This is coming from a company whose executives have been investigated and arrested for insider trading, illegal subs and bribery.

I think both builders have had their problems in this area.

The picture should be added to that long (plagarized evidently, and deleted) list of astounding Airbus quotes attackng Boeing. Does any one have a link to that list. Boeing does 'corporate speak' when it comments on Airbus - bland and boring.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: uALWN
Posted 2012-11-27 09:35:24 and read 28913 times.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 8):
This is coming from a company whose executives have been investigated and arrested for insider trading, illegal subs and bribery.

I don't recall any arrest, but I may have forgotten. At Boeing, on the other hand, ...

http://tinyurl.com/cjy9b54

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: FaddyPainter
Posted 2012-11-27 09:57:24 and read 28704 times.

I don't know why a few people here are getting all in a huff over Airbus's rather obvious trolling of its rival. I for one like to see the personal side of companies like this having a dig at each other. Breaks up the usual bland, faceless corporate PR usually trotted out by OEMs and makes for a nice bit of light entertainment seeing them at each others throats.

I hope Boeing issues an equally beguiling gibe in response.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: baldwin471
Posted 2012-11-27 10:05:20 and read 28575 times.

Quoting FaddyPainter (Reply 14):

Agreed. People going way over the top here.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Acheron
Posted 2012-11-27 10:20:43 and read 28165 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):

Agree, this is business, not personal

However, this ad SAYS A LOT MORE ABOUT AIRBUS THAN IT DOES ABOUT BOEING...

Airbus is showing their frustration. They've been able to beat Boeing in the narrow-body market, but as far as the wide-body market, Airbus will never build a more succesful plane than the 777 pax/freighter.. And the 787 looks like it might be a winner as well

Just to refresh the memory of you and a few others:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrECbn7kttg

Deal with it, and move on.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2012-11-27 10:34:47 and read 27786 times.

I love the Airbus and Boeing rivalry. Airbus certainly makes their opinions public, although I'm not sure that "more sophisticated airlines" would buy an airplane because of a wider aisle, larger fan diameter engines and fly by wire. Those things are nice and great selling points, but any sophisticated airline will look at the real numbers.

I personally love the 737 vs A320 rivalry. Airbus always quotes the A320 efficiency in total trip costs under the assumption that the capacity is similar. Boeing always quotes the 737-800 efficiency in cost per seat under the assumption that the 737 has a 12 seat capacity advantage. Both try to color their airplanes in their favor and make the comparisons that show their airplane in the most favorable terms.

In the end, it's too early to really know how the airplanes will perform. Boeing just got to firm concept which means they are finally firming up the calculations for efficiency numbers.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-27 10:44:51 and read 27516 times.

I'm not sure how wise it is to launch an advertisement in various airline trades that calls in to question the intelligence of airlines when it comes to purchasing airliners.   

JAAlbert's comments are spot on - any airline with a real Operating Certificate doesn't buy solely based on the brochure numbers - especially the brochure numbers Airbus and Boeing tout in their advertisements (per seat cost / trip costs).

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-27 10:52:42 and read 27305 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 5):
I hope Boeing sees this and files a lawsuit against Airbus for product defamation.

If you read the article, they have seen it. But I do agree that they should sue.

But then again, it's competition...and it goes to show that they really, really, REALLY hate each other. The drama continues.......

Now this thread is now officially an A vs. B war, a first in a very, very long time! Welcome to the War.

I'm getting out the popcorn!

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: ThomasCook
Posted 2012-11-27 11:06:46 and read 26991 times.

Some of you are taking this as though Airbus has made a personal hit at you. See the funny side of it! On first glance, I have to say I thought it was hilarious. This kind of thing works both ways and is a trend throughout the industry.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 17):
although I'm not sure that "more sophisticated airlines" would buy an airplane because of a wider aisle

When it comes to the 787 vs A350, i'm sure the XWB will be a pivotal deciding factor for many carriers as it can mean the difference between 9 and 10 abreast.

ThomasCook

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: ATL
Posted 2012-11-27 11:08:11 and read 26941 times.

Quoting FaddyPainter (Reply 14):
Airbus's rather obvious trolling of its rival.

I don't think you're using that right

Also, really Airbus? Come on now

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2012-11-27 11:20:27 and read 26682 times.

Not really adequate advertisement. Who at Airbus is responsible for spending money for such a junk ad, that just is not a serious way? This even does not convince MoL. So Airbus, fire those who are responsible for this - they are not worth a dollar per year.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-27 11:30:16 and read 26459 times.

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 20):
When it comes to the 787 vs A350, i'm sure the XWB will be a pivotal deciding factor for many carriers as it can mean the difference between 9 and 10 abreast.

That will be only of interest to charter operations like yourself.

Non-charter operators who want 10-abreast will be looking at the 777, 777X, 747 and A380.

[Edited 2012-11-27 11:30:37]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Beardown91737
Posted 2012-11-27 11:46:56 and read 26065 times.

Just what we need. In the US, we haven't even had a month off from the political attack ads.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: ZaphodB
Posted 2012-11-27 11:52:32 and read 26603 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
Airbus is showing their frustration. They've been able to beat Boeing in the narrow-body market, but as far as the wide-body market, Airbus will never build a more succesful plane than the 777 pax/freighter

never?

that's a mighty long time.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: flood
Posted 2012-11-27 11:58:40 and read 26559 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
I'm not sure how wise it is to launch an advertisement in various airline trades that calls in to question the intelligence of airlines when it comes to purchasing airliners.

It's no different, really, to insulting the intelligence of one's customers at a presentation. This comes to mind, as reported by Aeroturbopower from ISTAT 2012:

"Boeing VP Marketing Randy Tinseth showed some fuel burn comparisons between Airbus and Boeing aircraft. To me it looked a little bit like comparing apples with oranges (for example he compared the B777-300ER with the A340-300). After the presentation there was a panel discussion and some Q&A time with the audience. A Virgin Atlantic fleet manager stood up there and called Randy's comparisons bullshit - not only the models which were compared but the numbers itself!"

http://aeroturbopower.blogspot.com/2...rce=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
But I do agree that they should sue.

For what? All else aside, you don't think Airbus' legal team ok'd the ad before release?

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: CM
Posted 2012-11-27 12:02:34 and read 26849 times.

Personally, I love it when the rivalry heats up. A few months ago, it was the companies accusing each other of "predatory pricing". Now it's a dispute over the veracity of performance claims (I think, more on this below). Who knows what will be next, or who will land a solid "blow" but mostly I find it quite entertaining.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
I'm getting out the popcorn!

  

This ad is nothing more than a byproduct of fierce competition. If the 737 MAX and 747-8 weren't relevant, Airbus wouldn't bother attacking them. It seems Boeing has truly touched a nerve in Toulouse, as this as is clearly more testosterone driven than cerebral. As such, this one is poorly thought out and makes Airbus look silly in several ways:

1. Someone in Airbus' marketing world forgot to include the punchline for the ad... they forgot to actually make their point by naming the so-called "stretched truths". By chickening out and not directly stating what Boeing claims they are calling lies, they've completely blunted the point of their message.

2. Airbus included one of their own most silly and hollow arguments as the centerpiece of their ad, stating the 737 MAX and 747-8 are "derivatives of 1960s designs". It's 100% true, but 100% meaningless to anyone who matters and implies something that's 100% false. That Airbus included this garbage in an ad about "exaggeration" and (ostensibly) truthfulness is truly ironic.

3. Airbus lost the high ground in the battle of decorum and professionalism. If Boeing chooses to respond with class, or to ignore Airbus as if they were not relevant, Boeing gets to look like the only adult in the room.

I'll be joining AirframeAS in the bleachers. Good entertainment is sure to follow this one!

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-27 12:02:36 and read 26833 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 26):
For what?

Trademark infringement (they used a 737Max nose) and slander, for starters.

Quoting flood (Reply 26):
All else aside, you don't think Airbus' legal team ok'd the ad before release?

Honestly, I don't know....at the same time, who knows. Anything is possible.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: BigJKU
Posted 2012-11-27 12:07:25 and read 26680 times.

Honestly the only thing to really say here is that there is a right way to do business and a wrong way to do business. Doing things the wrong way does not mean you won't be successful. It just means that if you falter, don't expect many people to be there looking to pick you back up. Instead they will be standing over you with shovels. That ad in and of itself is a waste of money. But in my view it is very bad business karma. The people who work with me are taught one major thing in sales. We don't talk about or worry about our competitors in front of customers.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: hb88
Posted 2012-11-27 12:41:44 and read 25946 times.

Good grief what a lot of bbbbbfanbois getting in a huff. As one poster pointed out, both companies occasionally have a shot at the other. It's just the rough and tumble of business. Get over it. Have a chuckle and move on.

Quoting CM (Reply 27):
Airbus lost the high ground in the battle of decorum and professionalism.

er... really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrECbn7kttg

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: twinotter
Posted 2012-11-27 12:50:47 and read 25713 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
Trademark infringement (they used a 737Max nose) and slander, for starters.

The 737 isn't "trademarked". You may take a picture of one and publish it here if you want to, even if you photoshop it to make it look silly in some regard. Boeing won't sue you.

Slander refers to oral defamation. If you think the ad is libelous, post the specific words that you think rise to that.

I don't know who's numbers are right, but the ad certainly caught peoples attention -- which means it is successful.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-27 12:53:20 and read 25635 times.

Quoting twinotter (Reply 31):
Boeing won't sue you.

Yes, they will.... if you use it for a "for profit" gain like what Airbus is doing.

Quoting twinotter (Reply 31):
Slander refers to oral defamation.

And on paper as well, like this ad.

Quoting twinotter (Reply 31):
which means it is successful.

I disagree. It is only successful if Airbus got more orders than Boeing as a result of the ad itself.

Quoting CM (Reply 27):
I'll be joining AirframeAS in the bleachers. Good entertainment is sure to follow this one!

Awesome! Care for some popcorn, sir? LOL!

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: EPA001
Posted 2012-11-27 12:54:46 and read 25586 times.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 16):
Just to refresh the memory of you and a few others:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrECb...7kttg

That is how it goes. One punch from the one os followed by one punch from the other. This is nothing more then that and in both cases it was done with a wink, so with a little humor.

Quoting CM (Reply 27):
Airbus lost the high ground in the battle of decorum and professionalism.

Rubbish.   

Quoting hb88 (Reply 30):

Good grief what a lot of bbbbbfanbois getting in a huff. As one poster pointed out, both companies occasionally have a shot at the other. It's just the rough and tumble of business. Get over it. Have a chuckle and move on.

Indeed, that is how it is.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: flood
Posted 2012-11-27 13:00:55 and read 25470 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
Trademark infringement (they used a 737Max nose) and slander, for starters.

What makes you think the 737MAX's nose is trademarked? It's not. Neither is the generic term "MAX", for that matter.

Not to mention... I have yet to see a 737 at PDX with such a long nose  Wink
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 32):
Yes, they will.... if you use it for a "for profit" gain like what Airbus is doing.

Stroll over to Getty Images, where you're welcome to license thousands of 'generic' (ie stripped livery, etc) aircraft photos from both OEMs for commercial purposes.

I don't see the slander aspect either, to be honest.

[Edited 2012-11-27 13:04:20]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2012-11-27 13:01:25 and read 25408 times.

I personally find the ad pretty funny. But for them to say the numbers are way off is silly. Neither aircraft have been put together, never mind flown. I understand they can get some good numbers off of computer models but when it takes flight is when they get the solid data. Even when the 787 went into service airlines were saying how performance was better than they expected. Not trying to say Boeing does have an 8% advantage, but when they enter service who knows, they could have a 10% advantage or Airbus will have a 10% advantage. We just don't know until the certifications are done and they are flying.
Blue

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2012-11-27 13:03:28 and read 25371 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 5):
I hope Boeing sees this and files a lawsuit against Airbus for product defamation.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
slander

There's no such cause of action. Only persons can be defamed, not things. Slander is verbal defamation.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-11-27 13:09:16 and read 25204 times.

Good lord. Lawsuits? Those are expensive, you know. And there'd be no benefit.

Either Airbus is wrong and the MAX is competitive with the neo, in which case this ad won't matter because airlines will see that... or Airbus is right and the neo beats the MAX solidly, in which case this ad doesn't matter because airlines will reject the MAX based on the numbers, not this ad.

This is just some people at Airbus thumping their chests for Boeing's benefit. Honestly a waste of money, but whatever makes people feel good, I guess.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: CM
Posted 2012-11-27 13:21:47 and read 24981 times.

Quoting hb88 (Reply 30):
er... really?

Really. You can't justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior.

Here's a great example of handling something properly, which I think you will agree with: When Airbus retired the A340 model, Boeing took a cheap shot at the airplane on Randy's blog. Airbus did not lower themselves by making an equally juvenile response. The comment made Boeing look small because it lacked class and was not gracious to a competitor which had been defeated. It was poor sportsmanship by Boeing, if you will. Now it's Airbus' turn to look silly for being juvenile, the question is how will Boeing respond, or will they?


Comparing this ad to the linked A350 video is truly apples and oranges, and here's why: The video was made by a couple of Boeing employees early in the 7E7 program. It was the unauthorized project of a small group of individuals and was made as a spoof video for entertainment inernal to an organization. Sadly it was leaked by some well meaning individual who wanted to share it with the world. 787 and BCA leadership learned of the video at the same time Airbus execs did, and both were furious. People who were directly involved in making the video were in quite a bit of hot water over it with Boeing leadership. In the case of the Airbus ad, it is the official public position of Airbus. Approved for release and sent out to the masses on Airbus' dime in the trade rags. Quite a different circumstance, IMHO.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 33):
Rubbish.

I guess it is all a matter of how you perceive professionalism and class, which I will admit is quite subjective.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: glideslope
Posted 2012-11-27 13:23:46 and read 24982 times.

Wow, things are worse in Toulouse than I thought. All the EU bailouts must be forcing EADS to tighten the belt around Airbus? Maybe move some additional production to Germany from France?

Take the High Road Boeing.

And just who are these "less sophisticated customers" John? You're nothing but a glorified Car Salesman. You're banker is tightening the leash, and you're out of words, and Maintenance Packages.   

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: ThomasCook
Posted 2012-11-27 13:27:50 and read 24855 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
That will be only of interest to charter operations like yourself.

Non-charter operators who want 10-abreast will be looking at the 777, 777X, 747 and A380.

That was quite an unfounded baseless response wasn't it? Configs remain to be seen...let's see what the likes of EI, EK and EY come up with.

[Edited 2012-11-27 14:03:25]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-27 13:33:10 and read 24724 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 34):
What makes you think the 737MAX's nose is trademarked?

So, you're saying that Airbus, if they wanted to, could use the 737 nose on their future products?? Seriously??

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 36):
Slander is verbal defamation.

It can be written on paper as well. It does not have to be verbal.

Quoting glideslope (Reply 39):
Take the High Road Boeing.

I hope they will.... but if you read the article, they did respond to it by sending Airbus a letter....

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: redflyer
Posted 2012-11-27 13:40:27 and read 24556 times.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 3):
Shameless, unnecessary, and embarrassing - for Airbus. Aren't there some wing cracks to fix in Toulouse?

Ouch!

Quoting hb88 (Reply 30):
Good grief what a lot of bbbbbfanbois getting in a huff. As one poster pointed out, both companies occasionally have a shot at the other. It's just the rough and tumble of business. Get over it. Have a chuckle and move on.

I had a great laugh over it. The photo is absolutely priceless! I definitely give the edge to Airbus for creativity.

Unfortunately, I think this kind of advertising never works and only hurts the advertiser. Besides the possibility of making them look desperate, it has the effect of drawing attention to the competition. And in marketing, you never want to draw attention to the competition. Why? Because it will only make your prospective clients go back to the competition for confirmation/clarification of your claims, and in the process it will give the competition additional face-time with your prospective client. It will also give the competition an opportunity to refute the allegations, and now that the mud-fest has begun, provide the competition with an unfettered opportunity to bad-mouth you, only they will get to do it behind closed doors.

It's one thing to point out differences in products, but it's an entirely different ball game and a slippery slope to tread on to call your competitor a liar.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: flood
Posted 2012-11-27 13:57:06 and read 24179 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 41):
So, you're saying that Airbus, if they wanted to, could use the 737 nose on their future products?? Seriously??

I never suggested anything of the like. I'm not sure how you managed to make the leap from a derivative image being used in advertising to the copying of a physical product.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: BE77
Posted 2012-11-27 13:58:42 and read 24157 times.

Speaking of lawsuits, doesn't Disney have a horse in this race here too? Did Airbus get permission to use an image very definitely associated with Disney??

(Just checked, and the story is from the 1800's so i imagine public domain, but i am still going to leave it in).

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-27 13:59:25 and read 24210 times.

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 40):
Configs remain to be seen...let's see what the likes of EI, EK and EY come up with.

EK have already stated they intend to fly the A350 at 9-abreast in Economy (the drop in seats between the 777-300ER and the A350-1000 has been a bit of a sore point with EK). I would expect EI and EY to follow EK's lead.

AirAsia X will fly the A350 in 10-abreast, but I believe they are the only carrier to date who has announced such plans.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-27 14:01:06 and read 24128 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 43):
I'm not sure how you managed to make the leap from a derivative image being used in advertising to the copying of a physical product.

It never stopped China with their C919 or the ARJ21.....

Quoting flood (Reply 43):
I never suggested anything of the like.

You didn't have to.....

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: N766UA
Posted 2012-11-27 14:01:50 and read 24163 times.

I like how they say "both of which are 1960's designs." First off, yes they are, and they're doing a pretty awesome job of competing with your "newer" designs.

And, secondly, ALL airplanes are derivatives of early 1900's designs-- so what's their point?

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: FaddyPainter
Posted 2012-11-27 14:05:37 and read 24046 times.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 42):
Unfortunately, I think this kind of advertising never works and only hurts the advertiser. Besides the possibility of making them look desperate, it has the effect of drawing attention to the competition. And in marketing, you never want to draw attention to the competition.

I think Ryanair and the Michael O'Leary brigade would have a thing or two to say about that. I'm sure you don't need me to provide examples.  

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: tmoney
Posted 2012-11-27 14:05:47 and read 24048 times.

The article lost me when it said: "Chicago-based Boeing". Uh?!

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: KC135Hydraulics
Posted 2012-11-27 14:26:58 and read 23639 times.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 3):
Is this for real? Shameless, unnecessary, and embarrassing - for Airbus. Aren't there some wing cracks to fix in Toulouse?

Ha.... hahaha.. PWNED, Airbus.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: kaneporta1
Posted 2012-11-27 14:50:59 and read 23161 times.

Some people here shouldn't take life so seriously. Personally I love this ad and I hope Boeing respond with an even more flamboyant one.

If more companies did this the world would be a more pleasant place (click on the first image to see full size):

http://static.fjcdn.com/large/pictures/19/07/1907d8_497075.jpg



I've got the popcorn out, now bring on the entertainment!

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2012-11-27 14:51:06 and read 22893 times.

Quoting BE77 (Reply 44):
Speaking of lawsuits, doesn't Disney have a horse in this race here too? Did Airbus get permission to use an image very definitely associated with Disney??

(Just checked, and the story is from the 1800's so i imagine public domain, but i am still going to leave it in).

Hilarious! I'm glad you left it in - it's funny.

Gents (and ladies) I agree with the view that this is kinda par for the course in the airplane manufacturing business. It can be fun to watch - or maddening at times -- but really, it's just fluff - or huff or whatever. The fun really comes when one of the manufacturers makes a statement that is later contradicted by experts, airlines or 5yr olds. As I said in my earlier post, I don't see anyone in the airline industry taking this stuff too seriously.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: CapEd388
Posted 2012-11-27 14:52:07 and read 22879 times.

Quoting tmoney (Reply 49):

The article is correct, Boeing is headquartered in Chicago. They used to be headquartered in Seattle and their main plant is still there, but the official HQ is in Chicago.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: CM
Posted 2012-11-27 14:54:40 and read 22814 times.

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 51):

LOL! The Go / Kingfisher / Jet bilboards are a classic! Thanks for that!

Indeed, people should sit back and enjoy this. In the end, one or perhaps both companies will give us a show at their own expense.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: cmf
Posted 2012-11-27 15:05:59 and read 22583 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 41):
It can be written on paper as well. It does not have to be verbal.

It is called libel when it is written (or broadcast) but at a site like this it is for all practical purposes the same.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: jdevora
Posted 2012-11-27 15:06:16 and read 22568 times.

Hi,

Anybody knows where to find a higher resolution image?


I can't read what it says 
JD

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: vanguard737
Posted 2012-11-27 15:10:00 and read 22518 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 41):
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 36):
Slander is verbal defamation.

It can be written on paper as well. It does not have to be verbal.

That's called libel.

Either way, there is no need for lawsuits, nor do I see any ground for Boeing to stand on, even if they wished to pursue legal action. Airbus is allowed to produce an advertisement showcasing it's views and interpretation of what Boeing is claiming. So long as they don't make a blatantly false statement or supply false information ('You're taking your life in your hands if you fly on a Boeing!'), there is nothing illegal about it.

Boeing will wipe its tears and move on, just as Airbus has had to do in the past.

It's just marketing.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-27 15:26:43 and read 22169 times.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 29):
But in my view it is very bad business karma.

Remember the 4 for the long haul ad? I'm waiting for karma come around

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 51):

Very funny. Very sharp!!!

bt

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-27 15:31:00 and read 22102 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 55):
It is called libel when it is written (or broadcast) but at a site like this it is for all practical purposes the same.
Quoting vanguard737 (Reply 57):
That's called libel.

Ah, yes. That is the term I was looking for. Thanks!

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 51):
I've got the popcorn out

Glad to have you joining us in the bleachers here! LOL!  

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: kaneporta1
Posted 2012-11-27 16:01:40 and read 21612 times.

Since the photo in my previous post is gone, here's a link where you can see it:

http://copytaste.com/dr17e2kv

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: davs5032
Posted 2012-11-27 16:04:12 and read 21532 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
However, this ad SAYS A LOT MORE ABOUT AIRBUS THAN IT DOES ABOUT BOEING...
Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
Airbus is showing their frustration. They've been able to beat Boeing in the narrow-body market, but as far as the wide-body market, Airbus will never build a more succesful plane than the 777 pax/freighter.. And the 787 looks like it might be a winner as well

Doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know about Boeing or Airbus. Airbus has proven that its marketing strategy is questionable if not completely off-base, just as Boeing's has proven with similar efforts in the past...and both will do so again. As for the 777, it's the best of its generation, but it will be topped, there's always something brighter coming in the future. The 787 and A350 will both be ripe for the challenge. Will be interesting to see how Boeing responds...I'm guessing Airbus will not be receiving a Christmas card this year.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 16):
Deal with it, and move on.

Oh, let them complain and voice their grievances...lord knows the fanboys on your side do the exact same thing whenever Boeing's the perpetrator....it makes for good entertainment.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
I'm not sure how wise it is to launch an advertisement in various airline trades that calls in to question the intelligence of airlines when it comes to purchasing airliners.   

JAAlbert's comments are spot on - any airline with a real Operating Certificate doesn't buy solely based on the brochure numbers - especially the brochure numbers Airbus and Boeing tout in their advertisements (per seat cost / trip costs).

It still baffles me how both A and B pay their marketing people to publicize this stuff when it knows no customer is dumb enough to be fooled by product puffery. The ad seemingly has no chance of a positive sales effect, and could only turn out negative if it alienates certain customers...even if it doesn't however, it's still a waste of resources.

Quoting CM (Reply 27):

Personally, I love it when the rivalry heats up. A few months ago, it was the companies accusing each other of "predatory pricing". Now it's a dispute over the veracity of performance claims (I think, more on this below). Who knows what will be next, or who will land a solid "blow" but mostly I find it quite entertaining.

This is why I'm pulling for BBD to succeed with the C-series. The only thing more steamy A vs. B would be a 3-way!   

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 35):
I personally find the ad pretty funny.

Me too...it is a clever ad. The marketing folks at Airbus may be misguided, but you can't say they aren't creative!
  

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-27 16:13:58 and read 21420 times.

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 61):
It still baffles me how both A and B pay their marketing people to publicize this stuff when it knows no customer is dumb enough to be fooled by product puffery.

  

And while it can clearly inflame aircraft enthusiasts, they don't have any influence on an airline's aircraft purchases.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: penguins
Posted 2012-11-27 16:39:03 and read 20968 times.

I think it is horrible that any company, Airbus or Boeing included, would stoop to such low levels. To achieve what?
Sales? Popularity among airlines? Passenger loyalty?
All I see this as is a flame war between two companies that have a monopoly on the large aircraft business.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-27 16:44:24 and read 20891 times.

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 61):
The only thing more steamy A vs. B would be a 3-way!

That would be historically NEW on A.net! LOL!   

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-11-27 16:50:54 and read 20774 times.

Is there not a part of the old Sud Aviation in today's Airbus?

http://www.google.ca/imgres?hl=en&cl...1t:429,r:26,s:0,i:168&tx=70&ty=109

They have been poking fun at the competition for decades. And it is just that .... fun.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Aither
Posted 2012-11-27 16:59:33 and read 20659 times.

As the article says this is linked to the recent Boeing advertising campaign showing publicly performance comparisons between Boeing and Airbus aircraft.

This was completely stupid as well as every airline is operating the aircraft differently and has different configurations. So both score 1-1.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-11-27 18:08:38 and read 20099 times.

Why would Airbus (or Boeing, for that matter) feel that taking this matter to a public advertising campaign would in any way be helpful?

While some frequent passengers do have some preference for aircraft type when purchasing a ticket, most of them could care less about whether the 737 is 1% more or less efficient than the A320 or what it's payload-range chart looks like. Most of them have never even seen a payload-range chart, for that matter.

Thoughts?

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-27 18:15:19 and read 20078 times.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
Wow.... Airbus jabs Boeing "below the belt"....

I am trying to work out what part is below the belt ? What have they said in the advertisement that is untrue ?

1500+ A320neo orders in 2 years
Around 90 A380s in service, around 5 747-8is
Seats and isle in the A320 are wider 737
Seats and isle in the A380 are wider 747
Fan diameter and bypass ratio on the A320neo is greater than than on the 737MAX

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 2):

That's all that need be said.

It is well known that RA and his company have been a long time paid consultants of The Boeing Company.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 3):

Is this for real? Shameless, unnecessary, and embarrassing - for Airbus. Aren't there some wing cracks to fix in Toulouse?

And where were you when Boeing put this out ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zHBxvAfWic

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Daysleeper
Posted 2012-11-27 18:41:17 and read 19664 times.

This has to be the most entertaining thread I've seen here in years  

Better still, had a member decided to start a thread making the same claims Airbus has in the Ad, whats the odds that the thread would have been locked as "flame bait" and the user warned or banned.


Kudos to Airbus, can't wait to see if Boeing respond with an ad of their own..

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: flood
Posted 2012-11-27 19:53:20 and read 18947 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 67):
Why would Airbus (or Boeing, for that matter) feel that taking this matter to a public advertising campaign would in any way be helpful?

While some frequent passengers do have some preference for aircraft type when purchasing a ticket, most of them could care less about whether the 737 is 1% more or less efficient than the A320 or what it's payload-range chart looks like. Most of them have never even seen a payload-range chart, for that matter.

From the Bloomberg article, it doesn't seem the ad is targeted at the general flying public as it's apparently only being run in Flight and Aviation Week.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 46):
It never stopped China with their C919 or the ARJ21.....

You're comparing apples to an empty sack of Idaho Potatoes.

By your logic, Airbus needs to file suit as well:

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-27 20:15:39 and read 18684 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 67):
Why would Airbus (or Boeing, for that matter) feel that taking this matter to a public advertising campaign would in any way be helpful?

Both companies did exactly the same thing the tanker bid...placing ads in AW&ST isn't really targeting "the public", it's aimed mostly at politicians.

Quoting zeke (Reply 68):
What have they said in the advertisement that is untrue ?

"The A380 has captured 86% share in the very large passenger aircraft market."

Since the A380 was launched (Dec 2000) it's had 81%, not 86%, market share. Yes, only 5% off, but in an ad that's complaining about the other guy exaggerating numbers...

Quoting zeke (Reply 68):
It is well known that RA and his company have been a long time paid consultants of The Boeing Company.

RA is well known to be pro-Boeing. However, I tried and failed to find any evidence that he was paid by Boeing at any time as a consulatant (other than open-market purchase of Teal Group products, which Airbus also does). Do you have a source on that?

Quoting zeke (Reply 68):
And where were you when Boeing put this out ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zHBx...AfWic

You do know that *Boeing* didn't put that out, right?

Tom.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: davs5032
Posted 2012-11-27 20:20:03 and read 18571 times.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 69):
Better still, had a member decided to start a thread making the same claims Airbus has in the Ad, whats the odds that the thread would have been locked as "flame bait" and the user warned or banned.

Sentiments like this have always, and continue to be a figment of your imagination, and are devoid of any factual basis. You're constantly making comments like this. It appears you believe that by repeatedly classifying Airbus as the sole "victim" or target of unfair criticism by A.net members as a whole, that it will be adopted as the truth....but it's not, and it won't.

Many of the members on here have their favorite, sure, and a select few voice their support by consistently discrediting the competitor. But a strong majority of members have respect for the other and can, and do, make reasonable, objective arguments without being blinded by bias. The ones who resort to bashing the other side are equally represented on both sides, and are equally treated, and to insinuate otherwise is just ridiculous. You seem to be a knowledgeable guy who normally makes legit, factually-backed points when comparing A vs B, even when it might not suit your preference...so I don't know why you keep pushing this worn-out fallacy that is such a clear departure from reality.

Please understand, I don't mean to be an ass, as you're someone whose opinions I respect, but this particular one needs to be put to bed.

Quoting zeke (Reply 68):
I am trying to work out what part is below the belt ? What have they said in the advertisement that is untrue ?

I believe it's based on the title, which accuses Boeing of lying or fraudulently misrepresenting their products. The portions you've cited are true, but most of the smaller print statements are only speaking highly about Airbus' own products, so that's not what any of the criticism is aimed at. It's pretty clear which claims are intended to catch the viewer's eye.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: billreid
Posted 2012-11-27 20:26:56 and read 18487 times.

I would use this as a sales tool if I were Boeing. Obviously, Airbus couldn't come up with a single solitary positive thing to say to promote the NEO in an advert. Instead they trashed the competitors claims without any back-up data.
If I was looking at an order I would start to wonder if perhaps the NEO will have the seat costs of the A318 at best, because Airbus has NIL to say about its own product?

Just how bad is the NEO?

This is an example of the worst advertising idea I have ever seen....... Someone needs to find a job at McDonalds flipping burgers because whomever came up with the advert is clueless about sales and marketing.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: lxa333
Posted 2012-11-27 20:38:38 and read 18380 times.

How is Airbus better when they rely on government subsidies to back up their success and lower aircraft prices by up to 50 percent or more. You are telling me that a company that is great needs to lower prices to attract customers from going to boeing. Europeans making the a380 to match the 747 is like dubai making tall buildings thinking it can match ny, you can outdo it in size, but in class and overall performance a380 is not great vs 748.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-27 20:48:10 and read 18265 times.

Quoting lxa333 (Reply 74):
How is Airbus better when they rely on government subsidies to back up their success

It's been a long time since Airbus actually got a subsidy (and they weren't the Airbus we know today when they did).

Quoting lxa333 (Reply 74):
and lower aircraft prices by up to 50 percent or more.

Airbus doesn't sell anything at 50% of the equivalent Boeing's price to the same customer

Quoting lxa333 (Reply 74):
You are telling me that a company that is great needs to lower prices to attract customers from going to boeing.

A & B both compete on price (as well as value, performance, and several other things).

Quoting lxa333 (Reply 74):
Europeans making the a380 to match the 747 is like dubai making tall buildings thinking it can match ny, you can outdo it in size, but in class and overall performance a380 is not great vs 748.

They didn't do it to *match* the 747, they did it to *beat* the 747. And, much as it pains me to watch, the 747-8i sales to date suggest that Airbus was correct.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-27 21:35:25 and read 17719 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 68):
Fan diameter and bypass ratio on the A320neo is greater than than on the 737MAX

We don't know that quite yet. That is subject to debate, until then....

Quoting flood (Reply 70):
You're comparing apples to an empty sack of Idaho Potatoes.

Uhhhh, sure. Okay.   

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: RIXrat
Posted 2012-11-27 21:52:03 and read 17513 times.

The ad, itself, got its 15 minutes of fame and will be soon forgotten, but I think where John Leahe really stepped into it was in the Bloomberg story when he said that the ad was aimed at "less sophisticated airlines." That statement is an insult to those potential airlines which Airbus considers 2nd tier and below. Of course, every airline considers itself 1st tier.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: gigneil
Posted 2012-11-27 21:58:37 and read 17447 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 76):
We don't know that quite yet. That is subject to debate, until then....

It actually isn't... we know the fan size and the bypass ratio, and they are both in fact larger numbers for the A320.

NS

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: CM
Posted 2012-11-27 22:04:54 and read 17382 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 68):
And where were you when Boeing put this out ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zHBx...AfWic

It wasn't put out by Boeing.

Quoting CM (Reply 38):
Comparing this ad to the linked A350 video is truly apples and oranges, and here's why: The video was made by a couple of Boeing employees early in the 7E7 program. It was the unauthorized project of a small group of individuals and was made as a spoof video for entertainment inernal to an organization. Sadly it was leaked by some well meaning individual who wanted to share it with the world. 787 and BCA leadership learned of the video at the same time Airbus execs did, and both were furious. People who were directly involved in making the video were in quite a bit of hot water over it with Boeing leadership. In the case of the Airbus ad, it is the official public position of Airbus. Approved for release and sent out to the masses on Airbus' dime in the trade rags. Quite a different circumstance, IMHO.



Quoting billreid (Reply 73):
I would use this as a sales tool if I were Boeing.

I have already heard of one instance where this is now the plan... along with this priceless quote from John Leahy:

Quoting Leahy:
"I will claim an extra couple of percent better for mine and they should be claiming a couple of percent better for theirs"

Apparently this is how the game is played by Airbus, with JL cheating a couple extra percent for his aircraft. It's going to get very awkward for him when customers start asking about this kind of integrity where you cheat the numbers a couple percent in your favor, hope your competitor is doing the same, then expect your customer to settle on some sort of perceived parity for the products by splitting the difference between the two. Truly the most moronic thing I have ever heard from the man.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...oeing-claims-idUSL5E8MQC6P20121127

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2012-11-27 22:24:57 and read 17136 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 71):
Both companies did exactly the same thing the tanker bid...placing ads in AW&ST isn't really targeting "the public", it's aimed mostly at politicians.

Fair enough. But the 737/A320 isn't. It's really aimed at airline CEO's. I promise you that DL will not lose a single Platinum Elite customer if they were to order new A320NEO's instead of 737MAX's.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: 707lvr
Posted 2012-11-27 23:29:16 and read 16507 times.

Airbus always gets a pass on this sort of thing. "Well, it's Airbus after all." (Also see: FR) Boeing, as usual, will ignore it and just continue to build airplanes.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: autothrust
Posted 2012-11-28 00:07:49 and read 16045 times.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 4):
That's childish IMO

Nope it's called marketing else you can call many Boeing ads childish aswell.Many posts on this thread are childish:

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 3):
Shameless, unnecessary, and embarrassing
Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
SAYS A LOT MORE ABOUT AIRBUS THAN IT DOES ABOUT BOEING...
Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
Airbus is showing their frustration.
Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
Airbus will never build a more succesful plane than the 777 pax/freighter.

If Airbus had known about GE-90 and new ETOPS 180 i dare to say the 777 would have never had such success. Oh btw the A330 is successfull aswell.

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 50):
.... hahaha.. PWNED, Airbus.
Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 2):
Quote:
“The truth about these claims is that neither side knows,” said Richard Aboulafia, vice president of consultant Teal Group in Fairfax, Virginia. “These are engine-driven aircraft,” and until they have been fully developed and start tests, it’s impossible to know what they can offer, he said.

This is again rubbish from RA, because Airbus had already the opportunity to test the GTF and had plenty of time to sum things up. Whereas Boeing didn't and has less time.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: CM
Posted 2012-11-28 00:18:20 and read 15896 times.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 82):
This is again rubbish from RA,

Indeed. Both OEM's are more than capable of predicting engine/airframe efficiency to within a couple percent long before any hardware has flown.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: nimool
Posted 2012-11-28 00:22:18 and read 15839 times.

That is childish, grow up airbus!

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-11-28 00:45:47 and read 15624 times.

Ah....how refreshing...no more Mr. Nice Guy. Life is so much more entertaining when competitors shake their thin veneers of civility and let the vitriol show.

Any producer of anything that doesn't show their product in the absolutely best light won't be in the market long. It is rare to find anybody actually lying...but not telling the whole truth is the way of the promotional world.

For example; the 320neo has sold more copies than the MAX in total, but what are the sales numbers since the MAX was offered? That makes it more of an apples/apples comparison.

A counter to that is how many of the MAX commitments are actual sales?

...and we could, (and probably will), go on and on and on.

As has been pointed out, nobody disses the other guy unless he is a threat so in a twisted way, this ad actually adds to Boeing cred.

Regardless, it has been much too boring lately. I'm amused that somebody finally dried their powder enough to fire a shot.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: swallow
Posted 2012-11-28 02:38:41 and read 14371 times.

Trash talking is common in sports, but we are not usually privy to what is being said.

This is corporate trash talking......

and we are none the wiser....

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: travelhound
Posted 2012-11-28 03:58:26 and read 13625 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 62):
while it can clearly inflame aircraft enthusiasts, they don't have any influence on an airline's aircraft purchases.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 67):
Thoughts?

I think we have to remember behind every airline there are a multitude of investors, whether they be pension funds, trusts, investment bankers, private investors, etc. They all have varying degrees of understanding on aeroplane performance and as such these types of advertisements can sway opinions away from one supplier to another.

I think Airbus sees good sale opportunity in putting the boot into Boeing.

I go back to the days when I was working on an airport based around the A380. Literally, it went from an investors darling with large investment banks knocking on the door to a hard sell proposition within a year. The change in confidence came from the uncertainty created by the Boeing "point to point" model.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Irishpower
Posted 2012-11-28 03:59:11 and read 13637 times.

One of the first things you learn in sales is -

"When the competition is spending more time speaking about you and your products--you're winning".

Boeing should say nothing. Don't even bother with a reply.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: flipdewaf
Posted 2012-11-28 04:24:37 and read 13356 times.

OH NO! A company says its competitor is not as good as they say they are, happens all the time.

Fred

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-28 04:40:33 and read 13174 times.

Quoting Irishpower (Reply 88):

One of the first things you learn in sales is -

"When the competition is spending more time speaking about you and your products--you're winning".

Boeing should say nothing. Don't even bother with a reply.


You do not get it, this was in response to what Boeing has been saying, they are the ones spending so much money and energy putting the A320NEO and A380 down. They did this also during th KC-X competition saying EADS did not have a tanker, however the advertisement showed an A330MRTT refuelling an F-16 in flight.

Go figure.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Cerecl
Posted 2012-11-28 04:45:29 and read 13091 times.

This latest ad is just another unnecessary attempt in an A vs B war. I have a difficult time understanding A and B continues to hit each other in public ads

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-28 05:13:54 and read 12758 times.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 78):
It actually isn't... we know the fan size and the bypass ratio, and they are both in fact larger numbers for the A320.

Yes it is. Anything is changeable before they actually come up with the final product. Look at the 787 for example. The tail is obviously different than it was before. Anything is subject to change. I'm taking this engine size with a grain of salt.....for now.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 91):

This latest ad is just another unnecessary attempt in an A vs B war. I have a difficult time understanding A and B continues to hit each other in public ads


It's called entertainment, especially on A.net as you're seeing the flamefests going on. I'm very surprised that THIS thread has made it this far at 92 posts!  Wow!

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-11-28 05:22:17 and read 12622 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 92):

It's called entertainment, especially on A.net as you're seeing the flamefests going on. I'm very surprised that THIS thread has made it this far at 92 posts!

I think that's because this flamefest was started by one of the two usual topics of derision themselves. This isn't the usual A v. B fanboi purse swinging match...it's literally just commenting on the news.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: racercoup
Posted 2012-11-28 05:29:33 and read 12559 times.

I have noticed the Airbus refers to themselves as "a leading aircraft manufacturer", last year the web site moniker was "the world's largest manufacture"

Over the next year Boeing's production ramp up will put them in the neighborhood of 600 deliveries a year. I wonder it this will spell more orders due to earlier delivery slot being available?

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: diverdave
Posted 2012-11-28 05:37:20 and read 12444 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 92):
It's called entertainment, especially on A.net as you're seeing the flamefests going on. I'm very surprised that THIS thread has made it this far at 92 posts! Wow!

Maybe the ad is targeted at the airliners.net audience, and the instigators in Toulouse are dying of laughter.   

David

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-28 05:50:11 and read 12305 times.

Quoting racercoup (Reply 94):
I have noticed the Airbus refers to themselves as "a leading aircraft manufacturer", last year the web site moniker was "the world's largest manufacture"

The press like to use a phrase like "largest civil aircraft manufacturer", the meaning is that the A380 is the largest civil airliner, and it is made by Airbus. This should not be confused with the greatest number of airframes delivered, who sold more, highest sales value etc, one being size, the other volume which I often see people doing.

The volume based measurements tend to be rather subjective, details of which are not normally made public, i.e. a company may sell more by value on list price, however due to the way discounts are made, no one knows what they actually made. Also in terms of yield per frame, different accounting practices are used, and different financial years are in play, so no direct comparison can be made.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Darksnowynight
Posted 2012-11-28 05:51:29 and read 12272 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 46):
Quoting flood (Reply 43):
I'm not sure how you managed to make the leap from a derivative image being used in advertising to the copying of a physical product.

It never stopped China with their C919 or the ARJ21.....

That may well have been licensed. They built a tranche of Super80s that way not so long ago.

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 51):

Some people here shouldn't take life so seriously. Personally I love this ad and I hope Boeing respond with an even more flamboyant one

I agree. Let's see some starch.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 71):

Both companies did exactly the same thing the tanker bid...placing ads in AW&ST isn't really targeting "the public", it's aimed mostly at politicians.

I remember a full page add in the Washington Post. They were pretty bothered over that one.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 85):
Ah....how refreshing...no more Mr. Nice Guy. Life is so much more entertaining when competitors shake their thin veneers of civility and let the vitriol show.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 85):

Regardless, it has been much too boring lately. I'm amused that somebody finally dried their powder enough to fire a shot.

Right. Epic Rap Battles of (Aviation) History. I think we're due one.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-28 06:28:02 and read 11834 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 73):

This is an example of the worst advertising idea I have ever seen.......

But it seams like a good idea at the time.

And so was this:

http://www.seattlepi.com/business/ar...ng-rips-Airbus-ad-that-1092134.php

But then the airliner balked and Airbus pulled the campaign.


Quoting zeke (Reply 90):
You do not get it, this was in response to what Boeing has been saying, they are the ones spending so much money and energy putting the A320NEO and A380 down.

Disputing the numbers is legitimate, Questioning your opponent integrity should be left inside the company. Here in the US, we have just suffered through 2+ years of negative ads in political campaigning. That is why we are currently a little more sensitive to these type of advertisement. Wait a year and the punch line may be a little more palatable   .

bt

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: babybus
Posted 2012-11-28 06:38:57 and read 11698 times.

I doubt very much if Airbus could have made such a claim, that Boeing is cooking its figures, without some very substantive evidence.

I take it with a pinch of salt. We're all very used to Boeing's spin doctors.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Irishpower
Posted 2012-11-28 06:45:43 and read 11591 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 90):
You do not get it, this was in response to what Boeing has been saying, they are the ones spending so much money and energy putting the A320NEO and A380 down. They did this also during th KC-X competition saying EADS did not have a tanker, however the advertisement showed an A330MRTT refuelling an F-16 in flight.

Oh no, I get it.

I understand the finger pointing that goes on. I'm not saying B doesn't participate in these tactics as well. All I'm saying is that when it does happen it usually means that your product and marketing teams are doing really well.

You don't want to spend a lot of time and energy bad mouthing your competition. All that does is validate their products and sales pitch in the eyes of the consumer.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: vfw614
Posted 2012-11-28 06:53:07 and read 11485 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):

If you read the article, they have seen it. But I do agree that they should sue.

I think it is the other way around. If you read the article carefully, the ad appears to be just a slight detour in what may end up as litigation by Airbus. Apparently Airbus has already sent some sort of "cease and desist" letter based on unlawful unfair advertising by providing false data in relation to a competitor. Next step will be, depending on the procedural situation, filing for an injunction or initiating fully-fledged litigation. The media campaign appears to be an interim step.

I am slightly puzzled why everybody here is so negative about this. It is a simple case of (allegedly) unlawful comparative advertising - if Airbus thinks it is on safe ground with its data, why shouldn't they try to stop it if the competitor rehashes the story again and again. If the allegations are true and Boeing is misrepresenting data, Leahy quite correctly says that Boeing has crossed a line and we are not talking about the usual A vs. B marketing bull.

Quote from the ISTAF blog: "I really do not understand why Randy Tinseth is doing such obviously flawed comparisons at a conference like ISTAT, where the people in the room have very good knowledge of the market. I cannot believe that your potential customers appreciate such a behavior."

Whoever is wrong with its data will get the flak in the end - and deservedly so.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-28 07:28:55 and read 11162 times.

Quoting travelhound (Reply 87):
I think we have to remember behind every airline there are a multitude of investors, whether they be pension funds, trusts, investment bankers, private investors, etc. They all have varying degrees of understanding on aeroplane performance and as such these types of advertisements can sway opinions away from one supplier to another.

I am inclined to disagree with this as I don't think they have that background and even if they did, they'd then also have the background to understand that other fundamentals are more important in gauging the investment quality of an airline.

[Edited 2012-11-28 07:34:43]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Daysleeper
Posted 2012-11-28 07:39:15 and read 11086 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 101):
Whoever is wrong with its data will get the flak in the end - and deservedly so.

Got to say, my money would be on Boeing being a little bit too creative with their figures here, as It’s only a couple of years since they were claiming that the NEO would be nothing more than Airbus playing catch-up and the NG needed nothing more than “tweaks” in order to compete. I also seem to remember then stating that a re-engined airframe would only achieve a 3-4% reduction in operating costs – So for them to now claim that the MAX will be 8% better than the NEO…… Something doesn't quite add up.

In regards to their claims that the 747-8 has a better CASM than the A380….. I don’t think even the most dedicated Boeing fan believes that.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-28 07:58:10 and read 11054 times.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 98):
Questioning your opponent integrity should be left inside the company.

You mean like when people from the US referred to Airbus aircraft as being plastic, and only "made in America" is synonymous with good quality ? This is not just Boeing, there is a large anti-EU sentiment in the US. Even today people still blame the "plastic" tail on AA587 for breaking beyond ultimate load. Boeing plays on that sentiment.

Quoting babybus (Reply 99):
I doubt very much if Airbus could have made such a claim, that Boeing is cooking its figures, without some very substantive evidence.

Have a look at the http://www.newairplane.com site, some of the Boeing claims about the A320/A320neo are there in 737MAX section for everyone to see. Even at the 747-8 launch, I remember them saying the 747-8i flies further, faster, and carries more people than any aircraft in its class (only wrong on all 3 counts).

Its marketing, so who care !!!

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2012-11-28 08:19:43 and read 10945 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
I'm not sure how wise it is to launch an advertisement in various airline trades that calls in to question the intelligence of airlines when it comes to purchasing airliners.   

JAAlbert's comments are spot on - any airline with a real Operating Certificate doesn't buy solely based on the brochure numbers - especially the brochure numbers Airbus and Boeing tout in their advertisements (per seat cost / trip costs).

Honest question since i am curious about it - how then does anyone place firm orders for the NEO or MAX since none are in existence today? Are there performance guarantee clauses within the contract that put the onus on the OEM? I would think so but anyone has details on the structure of such agreements?

Quoting twinotter (Reply 31):
The 737 isn't "trademarked". You may take a picture of one and publish it here if you want to, even if you photoshop it to make it look silly in some regard. Boeing won't sue you.

Well, this ad would not have been put out without serious legal review.

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 51):
If more companies did this the world would be a more pleasant place (click on the first image to see full size):





LOVE IT!!!

Quoting billreid (Reply 73):
would use this as a sales tool if I were Boeing. Obviously, Airbus couldn't come up with a single solitary positive thing to say to promote the NEO in an advert. Instead they trashed the competitors claims without any back-up data.
If I was looking at an order I would start to wonder if perhaps the NEO will have the seat costs of the A318 at best, because Airbus has NIL to say about its own product?

Excellent, so you think this is the only exhibit a potential buyer would see before making her decision? This is good gorilla marketing, everybody does it, see: http://www.binscorner.com/pages/a/ad...nts-war-pepsi-vs-coca-cola-au.html for example on Coke vs. Pepsi, BMW vs. Audi, etc.

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 77):
The ad, itself, got its 15 minutes of fame and will be soon forgotten, but I think where John Leahe really stepped into it was in the Bloomberg story when he said that the ad was aimed at "less sophisticated airlines." That statement is an insult to those potential airlines which Airbus considers 2nd tier and below. Of course, every airline considers itself 1st tier.

Agreed, that doesn't sound good in any language.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: tarheelwings
Posted 2012-11-28 08:54:29 and read 10830 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
This is not just Boeing, there is a large anti-EU sentiment in the US.

You mean like the anti-US sentiment in Hong Kong?

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
Boeing plays on that sentiment

Considering a large percentage of Boeing product buyers are outside the US....this argument doesn't really hold water....does it? And even if it were true....it doesn't appear to be working when you take into account airlines like USAirways, American, United, etc.

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
Its marketing, so who care !!!

You obviously do.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: frmrCapCadet
Posted 2012-11-28 09:03:36 and read 10790 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
AA587 for breaking beyond ultimate load. Boeing plays on that sentiment

I would be interested in seeing whatever Boeing said.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Daysleeper
Posted 2012-11-28 09:22:11 and read 10719 times.

Quoting tarheelwings (Reply 106):
Considering a large percentage of Boeing product buyers are outside the US....this argument doesn't really hold water....does it? And even if it were true....it doesn't appear to be working when you take into account airlines like USAirways, American, United, etc.

A few years ago regulators in the US forced all airlines to state the planes country of manufacture on the saftey cards; details Here

I'm not aware of there being a similar requirement anywhere else in the world, or why US regulators thought it vitally important that this infomation had to be on the saftey card, other than perhaps to encourage US airlines to buy US made aircraft

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-11-28 09:48:37 and read 10602 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
Even today people still blame the "plastic" tail on AA587 for breaking beyond ultimate load. Boeing plays on that sentiment.

  

I can think of a lot of examples of Boeing (just like Airbus) making performance claims that are exaggerated when considered in any realistic light.

I can't think of any examples of Boeing implying that Airbus aircraft are poorly constructed, unsafe, or "plastic."

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: tarheelwings
Posted 2012-11-28 09:53:37 and read 10571 times.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 108):
I'm not aware of there being a similar requirement anywhere else in the world, or why US regulators thought it vitally important that this infomation had to be on the saftey card, other than perhaps to encourage US airlines to buy US made aircraft

Was it considered vitally important by regulators.....or was it to satisfy some overzealous congressman....my vote is on the latter. Once again, even if that was the intent (which I doubt), it doesn't appear to be working....does it.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: UA772IAD
Posted 2012-11-28 09:55:31 and read 10574 times.

I'm curious as to whom this ad is intended for? As stupid as this ad is, I don't think EADS is stupid enough to believe that airlines would pay any attention to this- so is it for investors then?

Good use of cash and brainpower by the marketing department though  

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Daysleeper
Posted 2012-11-28 11:19:11 and read 10372 times.

Quoting tarheelwings (Reply 110):
even if that was the intent (which I doubt), it doesn't appear to be working....does it.

What intent do you doubt?

I stated that the only reason I can fathom as to why this information had to be printed on safety cards was to try and encourage airlines to buy American made aircraft. If you know of another reason I’d love to hear it.

I also don't see the relevance of who instigated the changes, if it were some overzealous congressman as you theorized then he would only be reacting to pressure put upon him by organisations who stood to gain from such legislation.

As for how effective it’s been – who knows? But that’s not really the point, the fact that this was passed into law at all demonstrates that there is some prejudice against foreign manufactured aircraft.

[Edited 2012-11-28 11:22:12]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-28 11:30:40 and read 10323 times.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 112):
As for how effective it’s been – who knows? But that’s not really the point, the fact that this was passed into law at all demonstrates that there is some prejudice against foreign manufactured aircraft.

The United States has "Country of Origin Identification" laws for slews of products. Motor vehicles is a major one, for example. Ford and GM build cars in Canada and Mexico, both foreign countries, yet I don't see American consumers rejecting those specific models because of their country of origin. And we sure bought plenty of vehicles manufactured in the EU and Japan over the decades.

Many models of motor vehicles from foreign-owned manufacturers are produced in the United States, now. None of them, to my knowledge, were done so because it improved sales prospects with United States' consumers, but because manufacturing costs in the US were less-expensive than in the EU or Japan.

And I know the US is not the only country that expends effort promoting US products. The UK does, for example, because I've seen the Top Gear India Special.  Silly



Airbus didn't need to open an A320 assembly plant in Alabama to improve A320 sales to US-flagged carriers, but Airbus did need to open an A320 assembly plant in Tianjin to improve A320 sales to Chinese-flagged carriers.

[Edited 2012-11-28 11:40:07]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: delimit
Posted 2012-11-28 11:33:37 and read 10311 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
You mean like when people from the US referred to Airbus aircraft as being plastic, and only "made in America" is synonymous with good quality ?

Rather than random US bashing, why don't we try and stay on topic and talk about what Boeing has done; specifically in the media? You seem to want to accuse Boeing of equivalence; but have as yet to link anything from Boeing.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: sxf24
Posted 2012-11-28 11:37:53 and read 10289 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
Even at the 747-8 launch, I remember them saying the 747-8i flies further, faster, and carries more people than any aircraft in its class (only wrong on all 3 counts).

Perhaps you're judging Boeing's statement on a different definition of class than Boeing used. For example, the 747-8i flies further, faster, and carries more people than the A340.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Daysleeper
Posted 2012-11-28 11:43:39 and read 10268 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 113):
Airbus didn't need to open an A320 assembly plant in Alabama to improve A320 sales to US-flagged carriers, but Airbus did need to open an A320 assembly plant in Tianjin to improve A320 sales to Chinese-flagged carriers.

Hmm.. Okay i'll concede that the US isn't quite as bad as communist China. -  

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-28 11:44:19 and read 10264 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 101):
Apparently Airbus has already sent some sort of "cease and desist" letter based on unlawful unfair advertising by providing false data in relation to a competitor.

This is actually a very interesting premise.

Boeing could in NO WAY publish accurate data of Airbus aircraft because if it does, then questions would be asked on how they came up with the data - prove that you didn't steal the information via industrial espionage.

So what ever Boeing estimate of Airbus airplane performance, it would have to be in-accurate.

Circular logic???

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
You mean like when people from the US referred to Airbus aircraft as being plastic, and only "made in America" is synonymous with good quality ?

I would say the same with respect to attacking your competitor "personally" whether it's Airbus or Boeing. I'm less sanguine about attacking the product. As for people not working for the respective companies, they can make all the claims and declaration they want . . . that is the purpose of A.net is it not  

Now-a-days better quality is synonymous with Japanese products . . . "Made in America" is still good . . . European products may be as good or better . . . except more expensive . . . and Chinese product is "if possible, avoid things that you put in your mouth"  

bt

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-28 11:45:19 and read 10276 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 96):
The press like to use a phrase like "largest civil aircraft manufacturer", the meaning is that the A380 is the largest civil airliner

That had better be non-English press. That's a terrible abuse of english grammer.

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
Even today people still blame the "plastic" tail on AA587 for breaking beyond ultimate load. Boeing plays on that sentiment.

That's nonsense and you know it. *Boeing*, like all the other OEM's, never pokes at the safety of the other guys in any public forum. Aviation accidents are so rare that it's very much a "There but for the grace of God go I..." situation. They'll yell at each other over price, fuel burn, room, range, technology, coolness, and basically everything else but they do not screw around on safety. The closest it ever got was "4 Engines 4 Long Haul", that was mostly Virgin, and it went away quickly.

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 105):
Well, this ad would not have been put out without serious legal review.

Maybe, maybe not. Communications/Marketing usually has guidelines set by legal but it would be odd for legal to review ad copy as normal business. In this case, if the backstory of a cease & desist letter is true, legal might be involved.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-28 11:57:51 and read 10193 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 118):
The closest it ever got was "4 Engines 4 Long Haul", that was mostly Virgin, and it went away quickly.

Thanks Tom for clarify that. I thought it was an Airbus Ad. I respectfully retract my comments.

bt

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Pihero
Posted 2012-11-28 13:33:09 and read 10004 times.

The usual SNAFU and arrogance cum parochialism at A.net.
Yeah, we know Boeing is whiter than white and the guys at Airbus are just a bunch of idiotic unethical huns, right ?
To balance the views on this thread, here is the AirInsight article on what launched the Pinocchio nose advert : just one of the Boeing's marketing department and management attacks on Airbus ; You'd find somewhere on this site the comparison between 320s and 737s ( of course to the extraordinary benefit of the seattle product ) and now this :
When ad battle started

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: EPA001
Posted 2012-11-28 13:56:30 and read 9908 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 120):
The usual SNAFU and arrogance cum parochialism at A.net.
Yeah, we know Boeing is whiter than white and the guys at Airbus are just a bunch of idiotic unethical huns, right ?

This is A-net. So that was to be expected.  .

But in reality both OEM's make advertisements like these. The one is no better or worse then the other in their marketing behaviour, although, during the tanker battle................   

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Irishpower
Posted 2012-11-28 14:07:16 and read 9866 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
You mean like when people from the US referred to Airbus aircraft as being plastic, and only "made in America" is synonymous with good quality ? This is not just Boeing, there is a large anti-EU sentiment in the US. Even today people still blame the "plastic" tail on AA587 for breaking beyond ultimate load. Boeing plays on that sentiment.
Quoting Pihero (Reply 120):
The usual SNAFU and arrogance cum parochialism at A.net.
Yeah, we know Boeing is whiter than white and the guys at Airbus are just a bunch of idiotic unethical huns, right ?

Ahhh come on now. Are the two of you that myopic in your views?

Don't project your xenophobia onto me. You can't assume all "Americans" are pro Boeing and as a result we think Airbus is plastic junk. I realize this stuff happens on this website all the time but don't fuel any irrational fires.

If there are "American Boeing" fans on this site who think Airbus is garbage purely because the planes aren't made here then they are as narrow minded as the rest.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Pihero
Posted 2012-11-28 14:52:41 and read 9770 times.

Quoting Irishpower (Reply 122):
If there are "American Boeing" fans on this site who think Airbus is garbage purely because the planes aren't made here then they are as narrow minded as the rest.

You said it. Not I !

For the vast majority of the posters on this thread to look only at the Pinocchio nose without ever ever asking if there were a reason - good or bad - behind it, that's what I call myopia.

On the same subject, at a conference, when one of the clients blatantly , but politely, implies that Boeing is cooking the numbers, I really do not see that as bad reflection on Airbus but rather an egg on the executive's face.

And for someone who' seen for more than a year $2 bn spent on negative ads, I find the accusations very laughable.

But that's just my € 2 cents.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-28 15:17:48 and read 9680 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 93):
This isn't the usual A v. B fanboi purse swinging match...

It's very, very, very close though!!!! It still qualifies as an A vs. B war. Read the thread again.

Quoting babybus (Reply 99):
We're all very used to Boeing's spin doctors.

And we're also all very used to Airbus' spin doctors as well.

Quoting zeke (Reply 104):
I remember them saying the 747-8i flies further, faster, and carries more people than any aircraft in its class (only wrong on all 3 counts).

The last time I checked, Boeing is right on this one. The A380 is in a class all by itself with no other competitor. The 747 family competes directly with the A340 family.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: BoeEngr
Posted 2012-11-28 15:18:45 and read 9696 times.

I don't like either the Boeing ad or the Airbus ad, but I think neither is as bad as some of the comments in this thread. The comments and accusations in this thread bother me a lot more than those ads do.

Airbus is not an evil entity, and neither is Boeing. Let's move on.

C'est la vie, I guess.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-28 15:22:10 and read 9681 times.

Quoting Irishpower (Reply 122):

Don't project your xenophobia onto me.

Sorry Irish, both Zeke and Pihero are pilots and have seen the world. And through my experience, those who have traveled far and wide have fewer xenophobe tendency than those who have not.

Now, if there is a word that describe a hatred of a "Brand" then perhaps that may be a better word to use then xenophobe    .

And Pihero, I do not mean to say that you "hate Boeing". I was just trying to use the quote as an example.   - there should be an emoticon for Peace.

bt

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Daysleeper
Posted 2012-11-28 15:35:14 and read 9681 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 120):
To balance the views on this thread, here is the AirInsight article on what launched the Pinocchio nose advert : just one of the Boeing's marketing department and management attacks on Airbus ; You'd find somewhere on this site the comparison between 320s and 737s ( of course to the extraordinary benefit of the seattle product ) and now this :
When ad battle started

Very informative. Thanks.

I'd assumed it would be Boeings unrealistic 467 seat 3-Class layout what had upset Airbus, it's something I've debated here quite a few times. I had never managed to find specifics of the layout until now though, and the "smoking gun" for me is Boeing using a 48" Pitch for J on the A380, but only 39" on the 747.

What possible reason would there be for doing that other than to manipulate figures?


Edited to Add

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 124):
The last time I checked, Boeing is right on this one. The A380 is in a class all by itself with no other competitor. The 747 family competes directly with the A340 family.

Then why are they comparing with the A380 in their ad's and not the A340?

[Edited 2012-11-28 15:43:06]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-28 15:57:23 and read 9592 times.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 127):
Then why are they comparing with the A380 in their ad's and not the A340?

Which ad? The one the OP posted?

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: flood
Posted 2012-11-28 16:01:32 and read 9598 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 128):
Which ad? The one the OP posted?

The Boeing ad Pihero had linked to:
http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2012...-the-advertising-battle-commenced/

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-28 16:30:06 and read 9529 times.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 126):
And through my experience, those who have traveled far and wide have fewer xenophobe tendency than those who have not.

Travel helps, but I found education to be a more effective tutor.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 124):
The last time I checked, Boeing is right on this one. The A380 is in a class all by itself with no other competitor. The 747 family competes directly with the A340 family.

In terms of floor space, the 747-8 is ~35% larger than the 777-300ER and ~35% smaller than the A380-800 so it really is in a "class of one".

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-11-28 16:44:11 and read 9478 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 129):

Thanks for that.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 130):
so it really is in a "class of one".

I disagree. The A380 is in a class all by itself.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-28 16:53:58 and read 9467 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 131):
I disagree. The A380 is in a class all by itself.

Well with only LH as a reference at the moment, it is true that the 747-8 is closer to the A340-600, 777-300ER and 747-400 than it is to the A380-800. And in that class, the 747-8 does fly further, fly faster (or as fast) and carries more people than those planes.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Pihero
Posted 2012-11-28 18:31:31 and read 9268 times.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 8):

This is coming from a company whose executives have been investigated and arrested for insider trading, illegal subs and bribery.

I.e Airbus, right?.. You should have kept on your piece and say that all of them have been exonerated from these charges.
Of course, you have forgotten the Darlene case that made quite a few waves in Seattle and Chicago, let alone Washington, I believe.

Quoting BE77 (Reply 44):
Did Airbus get permission to use an image very definitely associated with Disney??

To my best knowledge, Pinocchio belongs to the heirs of Collodi, author of the book in the mid 1880s... The film, made IIRC in 1940 should still have been with copyrights that were not, to my best knowledge, paid by the Disney Co... In 2012, the puppet and its nose are public domain.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 130):
Travel helps, but I found education to be a more effective tutor.

Don't patronize, please. We didn't become pilots by sheer luck or black magic. Education is very much in our background.
Most people here do not realize that a "foreign" flag to our name means in reality that we speak one more language than the majority does. It was even better than that for me as at the age of seven, I had lived in four countries and was quite well "immersed" in these countries' life. Later in life, I refused the straight road to seniority in one airline and used my flight licence as my passport to the world... and it worked : 11 airlines in as many countries, flights over most of the world and true, real friends in these places... I believe I have more cultural references than the majority of people... really.

At least, I could read and - this is funny - both articles (from bloom and from Reuters) refer to Leahy hinting at a possible lawsuit if Boeing didn't stop their comparative ads. Talk about a bunch of guys talking through I don't know what but certainly not their mouths !!! One hundred and thirty posts and only ONE has seen it -read it - as :
"[b] The sales chief said he didn’t know what Airbus will do if Boeing ignores its ads.
“We’ll take one step at a time,” he said.
[/b)"

[Edited 2012-11-28 18:36:10]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-28 19:16:07 and read 9206 times.

Quoting tarheelwings (Reply 106):

You mean like the anti-US sentiment in Hong Kong?


Being a "white ghost" (translation of the common term locals call caucasians) I do get treated slightly differently here, it is minor like waiting at a stall if there are 3 locals and myself, the locals will get served first. Once I open my mouth and speak some of local language, the barriers are broken down. They realise I have been here for some time. More often than not, local street vendors do not have a high command of english and are embarrassed more than anything to speak to caucasians.

I have observed no large anti-US sentiment in HKG (locals looking at me would not know if I am American or not), there is however anti-mainlander. The real locals dislike the "cockroaches" from the north making living in HKG expensive. The perception is that they are taking places in local schools, taking places in local hospitals, mainland traders taking over trains, bringing all their poor social and driving skills with them. The mainland government also wants the local schools to adopt the mainland curriculum, which I understand has a different historical account of the world as we know it. There are public demonstrations about the mainland, never seen something like that against the US.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 109):

I can't think of any examples of Boeing implying that Airbus aircraft are poorly constructed, unsafe, or "plastic."

It was done during the tanker complain, Boeing made claims that the 767 gives pilot full control over their aircraft and better able to sustain damage. Boeing said the KC-30 is less survivable and more vulnerable to attack than the Boeing KC-767 Advanced Tanker.

Quoting delimit (Reply 114):

Rather than random US bashing, why don't we try and stay on topic and talk about what Boeing has done; specifically in the media? You seem to want to accuse Boeing of equivalence; but have as yet to link anything from Boeing.

It has already been linked, and I posted early in the thread the statements Airbus mad in their advertisement, which no one on here has said is untrue.

"I am trying to work out what part is below the belt ? What have they said in the advertisement that is untrue ?

1500+ A320neo orders in 2 years
Around 90 A380s in service, around 5 747-8is
Seats and isle in the A320 are wider 737
Seats and isle in the A380 are wider 747
Fan diameter and bypass ratio on the A320neo is greater than than on the 737MAX"

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 115):

Perhaps you're judging Boeing's statement on a different definition of class than Boeing used. For example, the 747-8i flies further, faster, and carries more people than the A340.

Boeing compares the 747-8 in public in advertising, commercially to airlines, and in the market forecasts as being in the same class i.e. VLAs (747 and larger)

The 4 classes
Region Jets
Narrow body (737/A320)
Twin isle (767/777/787/A310/A300/A330/A340/A350)
VLA (747/A380)

The orphan has always been the 757, stuck between the narrow body and twin isle.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 117):

Boeing could in NO WAY publish accurate data of Airbus aircraft because if it does, then questions would be asked on how they came up with the data - prove that you didn't steal the information via industrial espionage.

Boeing has all of the Airbus performance numbers, as they own Jeppesen which has all of the Airbus performance databases. This came to light recently when the RAAF wanted to use Jeppesen to flight plan the A330 tankers, EADS would not provide the data.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 117):
Now-a-days better quality is synonymous with Japanese products . . . "Made in America" is still good . . . European products may be as good or better . . . except more expensive . . . and Chinese product is "if possible, avoid things that you put in your mouth"

Many Chinese products get a bad wrap in the US which they do not deserve, and on the other hand some do need it. At the same time, some things made in the US are rubbish as well, that does not however make good TV. There are ongoing issues here and in China for example on baby milk formula which they add chemicals to to change protein levels. They will go the extra mile to cut a few cents in costs.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 118):

That's nonsense and you know it. *Boeing*, like all the other OEM's, never pokes at the safety of the other guys in any public forum.

Boeing did during the KC-X competition.

Quoting Irishpower (Reply 122):

Don't project your xenophobia onto me. You can't assume all "Americans" are pro Boeing and as a result we think Airbus is plastic junk. I realize this stuff happens on this website all the time but don't fuel any irrational fires.

If there are "American Boeing" fans on this site who think Airbus is garbage purely because the planes aren't made here then they are as narrow minded as the rest.

Just go up in this thread and see how many posters with US flags next to them have stated that the initial advertisements and web pages by Boeing were in poor judgement. Atthe same time have a look at any of those who have read the advertisement and objectively stated that there is noting incorrect in what Airbus has printed ?

I have been educated and have qualifications from 6 countries, and travel to a number of different countries each month. This year so far I have been to 10 countries in Asia, 5 in Europe, the UK, 3 in the Middle East, two in North America (including 9 different states in the US), and two in the Oceania. In my role, I work with people that speak over 60 different languages and come from all over the world, it is a very large leap to suggest that I am xenophobic.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 124):
The last time I checked, Boeing is right on this one. The A380 is in a class all by itself with no other competitor. The 747 family competes directly with the A340 family.

No, even Boeing puts the 747 in the same class as the A380.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 130):
In terms of floor space, the 747-8 is ~35% larger than the 777-300ER and ~35% smaller than the A380-800 so it really is in a "class of one".

Care to point out where Boeing or for that matter any other organization that uses floor space class ?

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cmo...ng_Current_Market_Outlook_2012.pdf

Quoting Stitch (Reply 132):
Well with only LH as a reference at the moment, it is true that the 747-8 is closer to the A340-600, 777-300ER and 747-400 than it is to the A380-800. And in that class, the 747-8 does fly further, fly faster (or as fast) and carries more people than those planes.

Well using the Lufthansa example, where Airbus says the A380 has 525 seats in a typical configuration, almost exactly that is what Lufthansa has installed (526), and Boeing says the the 747-8i has 467 seats in a typical configuration, Lufthansa has 362.

Boeing claims the 747-8i carries 51 more passengers than the 747-400, at Lufthansa it is 28.

Boeing in the advertisement says that the 747-8i is 8% more efficient per seat than the A380 (using their 467 seats), when a real customer has 20%+ less seats installed, what does that say about they advertising ?

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: uALWN
Posted 2012-11-28 19:57:33 and read 9091 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 124):
The last time I checked, Boeing is right on this one. The A380 is in a class all by itself with no other competitor.The 747 family competes directly with the A340 family.

Well, have a look at the Boeing ad linked in reply #120: Boeing does compare the 748 to the 380, not to the 340.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 132):
Well with only LH as a reference at the moment, it is true that the 747-8 is closer to the A340-600, 777-300ER and 747-400 than it is to the A380-800. And in that class, the 747-8 does fly further, fly faster (or as fast) and carries more people than those planes.

Yet, in the ad linked on reply #120 Boeing compares the 748 to only the 380, not to the 340, not to the 77W, not to the 744.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2012-11-28 23:30:14 and read 8861 times.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 126):
And through my experience, those who have traveled far and wide have fewer xenophobe tendency than those who have not

True...though travel doesn't cure xenophobia...the xenophobic tend to stay home. Because they are not xenophobic is why the open minded explore.

This whole thread is getting hilarious. That anybody on here feels the need to defend either of the big boys from the slings and arrows of the other guy is mind boggling.

Neither company has clean hands. A quick google search can turn up half truths, misdirections and outright lies from both sides going back decades. This is nothing more than a PR gambit to elicit some sympathy and free press. Both companies are soulless, do anything for a profit, money making machines. They don't actually have feelings and they sure don't care what the heck any of us think.

These guys love taking pot shots at the other guys...it's what they get paid for. For a few bucks more, any of them would change sides in a heartbeat and say the same crap about the company to which they were once so darned loyal.

The only ones taking any of this to heart are those anxious to grasp at any chance to 'set the record straight' about who started what and when. Sheesh.

I really can't believe anybody gets sucked in to taking any of this seriously. The seats and the service are the only things I've ever found made one lick of difference in my travel experiences...not the airliner.

Sorry for the interruption...do carry on...

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: EPA001
Posted 2012-11-29 00:39:23 and read 8745 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):
I am trying to work out what part is below the belt ? What have they said in the advertisement that is untrue ?

1500+ A320neo orders in 2 years
Around 90 A380s in service, around 5 747-8is
Seats and isle in the A320 are wider 737
Seats and isle in the A380 are wider 747
Fan diameter and bypass ratio on the A320neo is greater than than on the 737MAX"

As usual a very well written post Zeke. I totally agree with you on this one.  .

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Irishpower
Posted 2012-11-29 02:03:18 and read 8621 times.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 126):
Sorry Irish, both Zeke and Pihero are pilots and have seen the world. And through my experience, those who have traveled far and wide have fewer xenophobe tendency than those who have not.

Now, if there is a word that describe a hatred of a "Brand" then perhaps that may be a better word to use then xenophobe    .

Look, I understand. I'm an American who has lived and worked (and currently still works/resides) in Europe for over 4 years. I've traveled the world and interacted with many cultures. I'm sure both Zeke and Pihero are in the same boat as me. All I'm saying is that it is VERY easy to "typecast" or assume things about people and cultures based only on their nationality. The root cause of a lot of that is xenophobia.The bottom line is that that isn't the real world. You can't make assumptions about a people based on responses from an airplane enthusiast website.

That's all I'm trying to say.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: vfw614
Posted 2012-11-29 02:38:15 and read 8563 times.

What else is there to say:

Quote:
"Lufthansa and Korean Air, have chosen to fly both aircraft types for different route structures. Each of those airlines have indicated that the 747-8I fills a gap between their 300 seat aircraft and 525 seat A380 aircraft."
http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2012...tising-battle-commenced/#more-7110

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-29 04:34:22 and read 8409 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 139):

LH IAH ? They would like to deploy the A380 to India, the goverment will not permit it, so that is also a dual market.
KE LAX/JFK

The aircraft are interchangble along with the 777/A340-600 depending on seasonal loads.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-29 06:38:35 and read 8126 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):
Boeing has all of the Airbus performance numbers, as they own Jeppesen which has all of the Airbus performance databases.

Even within the same company, when there are proprietary agreement with a customer, it is illegal to share proprietary information without the approval of the customer to other part of the company when specific clauses are in effect. If the Jeppensen data was provided with written instruction to be used for "Jeppensen" purpose only, then the data can not be shared with other part of Boeing.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):

Many Chinese products get a bad wrap in the US which they do not deserve,

No bad wrap on other type of Chinese product. 90% of electronic products in my house are made in China. It comes down to the brand, and how much I trust the brand. Which I guess is the crux of this thread. 
Quoting Irishpower (Reply 138):
All I'm saying is that it is VERY easy to "typecast" or assume things about people and cultures based only on their nationality.

How true. Even the flag on A-net may not indicate the nationality, culturally or other wise. But those of us on A.net long enough should know that by now.

Quoting sweair (Reply 141):
IMO a pilot should act more grown up than this? Would I feel safe flying with such a emotional person?..

There's this new Denzel Washington movie . . . maybe we should all go and see it 

bt

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Daysleeper
Posted 2012-11-29 08:37:04 and read 7969 times.

I’ve just been reading though the 747-8 ProductionDelivery thread in which its stated that production slots for the 747 are available as early as October next year. There is also speculation that Boeing might be forced to reduce the production rate back to 1.5 frames per month after increasing it to 2 in June this year to avoid bringing the line to a stand still.

Running the line at such a low rate is going to significantly decrease the margin for Boeing, not to mention having to reduce it so soon after increasing it is also going to cost them a significant amount of cash. All this in a project which is already a financial disaster has to be putting an immense amount of pressure on the sales and marketing team – Perhaps this explains why a nominally respectable company is resorting to making false claims in their ads?

[Edited 2012-11-29 09:15:32]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-29 08:43:24 and read 7955 times.

If Boeing wanted to keep 747-8 backlogs high, they need only lower the Average Sales Price, which certainly would erode margins and cost them a significant amount of cash.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: sxf24
Posted 2012-11-29 08:45:01 and read 7937 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):
Seats and isle in the A320 are wider 737
Seats and isle in the A380 are wider 747
Fan diameter and bypass ratio on the A320neo is greater than than on the 737MAX

While all of those facts are correct, the assumptions are questionable. It is impossible to conclude that wider seats and aisles, larger fan diameters and bypass ratios, and advanced fly-by-wire make for a better selling, more efficient, or modern aircraft.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):
Boeing compares the 747-8 in public in advertising, commercially to airlines, and in the market forecasts as being in the same class i.e. VLAs (747 and larger)

I didn't realize there was a single, commonly-accepted definition of aircraft size.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: BoeEngr
Posted 2012-11-29 08:49:38 and read 7943 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):
It was done during the tanker complain, Boeing made claims that the 767 gives pilot full control over their aircraft and better able to sustain damage. Boeing said the KC-30 is less survivable and more vulnerable to attack than the Boeing KC-767 Advanced Tanker.

Essentially correct. In round 2, which awarded the contract to EADS/NG, the USAF evaluation gave the 767 a higher survivability score. In round 3, which ultimately went to Boeing, Boeing did tout the USAF survivability score as one of the benefits of the KC-767 over the A330.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: BoeEngr
Posted 2012-11-29 08:59:24 and read 7904 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 133):
I.e Airbus, right?.. You should have kept on your piece and say that all of them have been exonerated from these charges.

This was my understanding as well. Isn't this case closed?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 133):
Of course, you have forgotten the Darlene case that made quite a few waves in Seattle and Chicago, let alone Washington, I believe.

A single Boeing employee (Mike Sears) was fired and ultimately went to prison. How wonderful that what, 8 years later, we can still use this as a tit for tat and slam on the entire company.  

Note: I know Darlene Druyun was eventually a Boeing employee, but her illegal activities took place during her time at the USAF, not at Boeing.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Daysleeper
Posted 2012-11-29 09:08:24 and read 7861 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 143):

If Boeing wanted to keep 747-8 backlogs high, they need only lower the Average Sales Price, which certainly would erode margins and cost them a significant amount of cash.

Perhaps that's the next move? Or perhaps they are already offering it at a much reduced price and are still struggling to gain orders?

Not only that, but I think there are still a few of the rejected early build freighters gathering dust in Everett as-well as a VIP 748I with nowhere to go. I'd imagine these being off-spec would give Boeing the perfect excuse to drastically reduce the asking price without having a knock on effect on possible future orders - Yet, they remain unsold.

What an ugly situation for one of the all-time greats of aviation. They should have let her go out gracefully as the 400 series.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-29 09:12:41 and read 7861 times.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 147):
Perhaps that's the next move? Or perhaps they are already offering it at a much reduced price and are still struggling to gain orders?

Boeing have stated they have declined orders due to Boeing considering the price being offered as too low. So I'd be inclined to believe that Boeing is not following such a strategy.



Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 147):
Not only that, but I think there are still a few of the rejected early build freighters gathering dust in Everett as-well as a VIP 748I with nowhere to go.

I believe at least one of the freighters rejected by Atlas Air is now undergoing delivery preparations, so it may very well have found a home. As to the VIP bird, as it's complete Boeing would have received the majority of the monies owed so when they do resell it, that frame could bring in a tidy profit.



Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 147):
They should have let her go out gracefully as the 400 series.

No argument there. I have long believed the 747-8 program was a mistake.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Daysleeper
Posted 2012-11-29 09:19:57 and read 7827 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 148):
Boeing have stated they have declined orders due to Boeing considering the price being offered as too low. So I'd be inclined to believe that Boeing is not following such a strategy.

Time change - It was no doubt much easier for Boeing to decline orders when they had enough of a backlog to keep production going at a good rate for a few years. Now that's not the case, and assuming the Ad is a representation of just how much pressure the sales folks are under - Who knows?

Edited to Add:

As bizarre as it might sound a possible explanation for Boeings stubbornness on price might be the A380. As if they did reduce the average price then Airbus might be forced to react by lowering the A380's price which in turn might start a price war, which would be really bad news for both of them.

[Edited 2012-11-29 09:34:33]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Pihero
Posted 2012-11-29 09:24:22 and read 7827 times.

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 146):

Note: I know Darlene Druyun was eventually a Boeing employee, but her illegal activities took place during her time at the USAF, not at Boeing.

Usual attempt to drown a fish : Mrs Druyun [b]already was[/b) a Boeing employee when things went boom, along with her daughter and her fiancee.
Twist and squiirm all you want : These activities were made on behalf of Boeing and for Boeing's benefit... a means of entry to the top levels of Boeing.
To say otherwise is dishonesty.
You forgot to mention that the "single B employee " was its CFO... and that the scandal caused the resignation of Mr Condit, the then B CEO.

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 146):
How wonderful that what, 8 years later, we can still use this as a tit for tat and slam on the entire company.

Some people need reminding that their favourite company is not as white as they clamour it is. Tit for tat, that describes the exchange quite well... but certainly not the fact that the Air Force still feels the effects of the ... errr... malpractice.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: uALWN
Posted 2012-11-29 09:30:44 and read 7794 times.

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 146):
A single Boeing employee (Mike Sears) was fired and ultimately went to prison

A single Boeing employee who happened to be Boeing's CFO...

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: BoeEngr
Posted 2012-11-29 09:43:20 and read 7805 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 150):
Usual attempt to drown a fish : Mrs Druyun [b]already was[/b) a Boeing employee when things went boom, along with her daughter and her fiancee.
Twist and squiirm all you want : These activities were made on behalf of Boeing and for Boeing's benefit... a means of entry to the top levels of Boeing.
To say otherwise is dishonesty.
You forgot to mention that the "single B employee " was its CFO... and that the scandal caused the resignation of Mr Condit, the then B CEO.

Not trying to hide anything, and please don't accuse me of such. Just pointing out the reality of what happened. A Boeing employee and a former USAF employee went down. Make you feel better if I "admit" that almost 10 years ago two Boeing employees went down? Does it make that much of a difference?

Big learning lesson for all involved, and a huge scar on Boeing. I'm constantly reminded of it in my yearly ethics training.  

Perhaps I represent a biased minority, but I think it's time to move on. Many people obviously don't, and that's that. This thread is a reminder of why I really don't post on here anymore. It's just a fight where people pick tidbits of history from the two companies to try and paint one as better than the other. It gets old.

Just seems a little bit of a jab to those of us who come here everyday and work ourselves very hard and with the utmost ethical standards.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: BoeEngr
Posted 2012-11-29 09:46:12 and read 7781 times.

Quoting uALWN (Reply 151):
A single Boeing employee who happened to be Boeing's CFO...

Correct. No argument.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-29 10:31:36 and read 7662 times.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 149):
As bizarre as it might sound a possible explanation for Boeings stubbornness on price might be the A380.

I expect protecting the 777-300ER's strong Average Sales Price is the real reason for the "price floor" on the 747-8.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: phxa340
Posted 2012-11-29 11:10:36 and read 7559 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):

Comparing a military tanker and a civilian aircraft doesn't make any sense. Military aircraft are designed to withstand engagement. Boeing doesn't design the 737 with withstand enemy fire. I would be concerned if Boeing hasn't mentioned survivability of the tanker.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Pihero
Posted 2012-11-29 13:03:09 and read 7432 times.

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 152):
Big learning lesson for all involved, and a huge scar on Boeing. I'm constantly reminded of it in my yearly ethics training.

I am really sorry, because I did not start this argument. I am really sorry that you almost consider as normal a situation wherein , just on the tanker business, your DoD would have paid 11 bn extra to one of your main defence contractors, in which countless officers lost their careers, the contractor was fined some 600 M$ and which was called the biggest Pentagon scandal.
Here we have a strong goose and gander case.
I would give Scott Hamilton the final word on this :
"In a way, the entire fight is silly. No airline or lessor will buy Airbus or Boeing aircraft based on these sort of claims. The airlines run their own economic analysis and the lessors are more concerned about lease rates and residual values. The entire conference and advertising effort is for consumption by uninformed journalists, financiers and aviation geeks. Those who actually understand the nuances tend to dismiss the claims of either manufacturer (as we do) and run our own analysis or rely on the airlines and lessors for impartial information."

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: BoeEngr
Posted 2012-11-29 13:11:46 and read 7396 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 156):
I am really sorry that you almost consider as normal a situation wherein , just on the tanker business, your DoD would have paid 11 bn extra to one of your main defence contractors, in which countless officers lost their careers, the contractor was fined some 600 M$ and which was called the biggest Pentagon scandal.

I'm really sorry you interpret my comments to state that I think the situation was "normal" when I certainly do not. People were fired, people went to jail, contracts were cancelled, and Boeing paid a fine. All deserved in my opinion. So please don't try to paint me as someone I am not. My point is that I wonder how long people will bring it up for purposes of trying to show that Airbus is a better company.

But let's not drag the thread further off topic. I am done.

Best wishes, Pihero.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-29 13:45:03 and read 7313 times.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 149):
Time change - It was no doubt much easier for Boeing to decline orders when they had enough of a backlog to keep production going at a good rate for a few years.

Times has changed because even if the 747 line is low on order, low balling the price of the -8i just to get a back log does not make sense from the complete production stand point.

Why would you tie up assembly mechanics and supplier supplier base to sell airplanes that you may not make much money or lose money when you can transfer that resource to production lines that are more profitable (787, 737, 777)?

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 155):
Boeing doesn't design the 737 with withstand enemy fire. I would be concerned if Boeing hasn't mentioned survivability of the tanker.

But a recent 737 was live fire tested by the Navy . . . and more live fire test to come  
Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 157):

I'm really sorry you interpret my comments to state that I think the situation was "normal" when I certainly do not. People were fired, people went to jail, contracts were cancelled, and Boeing paid a fine.

Compare the Boeing case to the recent BP case will show that what Boeing did was relatively minor . . . so to speak.

bt

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: tarheelwings
Posted 2012-11-29 14:00:03 and read 7250 times.

You obviously missed my point: the c

Quoting Pihero (Reply 156):
I am really sorry, because I did not start this argument. I am really sorry that you almost consider as normal a situation wherein , just on the tanker business, your DoD would have paid 11 bn extra to one of your main defence contractors, in which countless officers lost their careers, the contractor was fined some 600 M$ and which was called the biggest Pentagon scandal.
Here we have a strong goose and gander case.

Talk about a lack of reading comprehension, nowhere in BoeEngr's posts does he try to minimize the GRAVE errors and lapses in ethical behavior committed by Boeing employees.....all I can see him saying is we need to get beyond what happened years ago and quit the silly and childish finger pointing that goes on regularly here on a.net.............and FWIW, that applies to "fans' of both Boeing and Airbus.

Peace!

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Pihero
Posted 2012-11-29 14:53:00 and read 7174 times.

Quoting tarheelwings (Reply 159):
Talk about a lack of reading comprehension,

I already mentioned that English is not my native language and I readily admit I may sometimes misunderstand a post.
Here, in his # 152, BoenEngr wrote :
"Big learning lesson for all involved, and a huge scar on Boeing. I'm constantly reminded of it in my yearly ethics training. " ... with a smile emoticon which I took as sarcasm.
If I was wrong, by all means, I'll apologise publicly to him here on this forum.

On the other hand, the comment on Airbus management ethics (post #8 ), which was incomplete and factually wrong, did not raise a single reaction, for more than 130 posts, at the very least to correct the false assumption... So, for you, one has to forget the lapses from one side, but it's ok to rehash the "mistakes" of the other side ? That's a very curious way of understanding fairness.
You talk about reading comprehension ?
How is it that -fact - the report was about A to try and elicit a reaction from B to stop the negative comparison ads and that before they 'd take other measures (in my understanding, a court war which wouldn't benefit anyone) ?... So, as a matter of fact, it is A that'sprotesting against what they perceive as unfair advertising.
BTW, the same article mentions that the Pinocchio argument was uttered by a B exec at the 1994 Farnborough show. a time in which he might have cause to say it,
So long ago that everyone has forgotten it.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: BoeEngr
Posted 2012-11-29 15:01:13 and read 7161 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 160):
I already mentioned that English is not my native language and I readily admit I may sometimes misunderstand a post.
Here, in his # 152, BoenEngr wrote :
"Big learning lesson for all involved, and a huge scar on Boeing. I'm constantly reminded of it in my yearly ethics training. " ... with a smile emoticon which I took as sarcasm.

Okay, I'll accept some responsibility here. In rereading my post, I can see how the use of the smile could have been taken as sarcasm, but it definitely was not intended that way. Just trying to lighten the moment a bit, in an already contentious thread.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-29 15:22:40 and read 7107 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 160):
"Big learning lesson for all involved, and a huge scar on Boeing. I'm constantly reminded of it in my yearly ethics training. " ... with a smile emoticon which I took as sarcasm.
Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 161):
Okay, I'll accept some responsibility here. In rereading my post, I can see how the use of the smile could have been taken as sarcasm, but it definitely was not intended that way. Just trying to lighten the moment a bit, in an already contentious thread.

LOL, civility prevails. I too do not take any smiley face on A-net as sarcasm. The smiley I usually take as playful banter.

For sarcasm, I usually use something stronger . . .         or even   

bt

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Pihero
Posted 2012-11-29 15:47:21 and read 7085 times.

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 161):
Just trying to lighten the moment a bit, in an already contentious thread.

So, I apologise for having been rough on you. That was unwarranted.

Regards 

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: BoeEngr
Posted 2012-11-29 15:48:40 and read 7079 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 163):

So, I apologise for having been rough on you. That was unwarranted.

No worries, mon ami.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-29 18:13:11 and read 6955 times.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 141):
Even within the same company, when there are proprietary agreement with a customer, it is illegal to share proprietary information without the approval of the customer to other part of the company when specific clauses are in effect. If the Jeppensen data was provided with written instruction to be used for "Jeppensen" purpose only, then the data can not be shared with other part of Boeing.

I am sure they have kept the proprietary information safe locked up in a room somewhere, it was provided well before Jeppesen was purchased. They interpolate/insert the data into their database/flight planning system, then it is no longer the proprietary information that was supplied to them. It is now their own database, their proprietary information, which Boeing then owns. End result, Boeing has access to it.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 142):
I’ve just been reading though the 747-8 ProductionDelivery thread in which its stated that production slots for the 747 are available as early as October next year. There is also speculation that Boeing might be forced to reduce the production rate back to 1.5 frames per month after increasing it to 2 in June this year to avoid bringing the line to a stand still.

I saw a production list somewhere else which has a number of unassigned production slots in it as well. I also noticed that we picked up 3 production slots that were destined for another customer.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 144):
While all of those facts are correct, the assumptions are questionable. It is impossible to conclude that wider seats and aisles, larger fan diameters and bypass ratios, and advanced fly-by-wire make for a better selling, more efficient, or modern aircraft.

Efficiency in one part of the equation, airlines need to sell their product to consumers, comfort is a selling point. if you had two cars with the same fuel mileage, same price, the only difference was one had cloth seats and was uncomfortable, the other had soft leather seats that made you not want to leave, which would you go for ? Now if they were not exactly the same efficiency, or not exactly the same price, what price would you put on that comfort ?

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 155):
Comparing a military tanker and a civilian aircraft doesn't make any sense. Military aircraft are designed to withstand engagement. Boeing doesn't design the 737 with withstand enemy fire. I would be concerned if Boeing hasn't mentioned survivability of the tanker.

Both aircraft in that case were derivatives of FAR 25 civil airliners, neither was a military airframe.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2012-11-29 18:55:47 and read 6875 times.

What's the fuzz about? The duopoly remains in place, and a PR stunt like this one is not going to change, but rather perpetuate it...  

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: sxf24
Posted 2012-11-29 20:11:41 and read 6805 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 165):
Efficiency in one part of the equation, airlines need to sell their product to consumers, comfort is a selling point. if you had two cars with the same fuel mileage, same price, the only difference was one had cloth seats and was uncomfortable, the other had soft leather seats that made you not want to leave, which would you go for ? Now if they were not exactly the same efficiency, or not exactly the same price, what price would you put on that comfort ?

Customers don't pay more for an extra inch of seat width, a larger fan diameter, or fly by wire. Customers buy the lowest price ticket, which is usually from an airline that operates a more efficient and reliable fleet.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-29 21:26:26 and read 6750 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 109):

I can't think of any examples of Boeing implying that Airbus aircraft are poorly constructed, unsafe, or "plastic."

It was done during the tanker complain, Boeing made claims that the 767 gives pilot full control over their aircraft and better able to sustain damage. Boeing said the KC-30 is less survivable and more vulnerable to attack than the Boeing KC-767 Advanced Tanker.

There was no statement there that the KC-30 was poorly constructed or "plastic". Translating survivability in combat (which the USAF agreed with) into a statement about the safety of commercial is, at best, a long stretch.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):
I posted early in the thread the statements Airbus mad in their advertisement, which no one on here has said is untrue.

I pointed out which statement was untrue right after you asked; Airbus overstated the A380 market share by 5%.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):
Boeing has all of the Airbus performance numbers, as they own Jeppesen which has all of the Airbus performance databases.

Jeppesen firewalls that data. Boeing Commercial Airplanes can't see it.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 118):
That's nonsense and you know it. *Boeing*, like all the other OEM's, never pokes at the safety of the other guys in any public forum.

Boeing did during the KC-X competition.

They did not say it was unsafe ("less safe" is NOT the same thing as "unsafe"), they didn't say it was plastic, and they didn't say it was poorly built.

Quoting zeke (Reply 165):
They interpolate/insert the data into their database/flight planning system, then it is no longer the proprietary information that was supplied to them. It is now their own database, their proprietary information, which Boeing then owns. End result, Boeing has access to it.

JetPlanner has separate databases for each aircraft type (and each aircraft). Jeppesen has databases for pretty much everything on earth. They do *not* share the Airbus database with Boeing Commercial Airplanes. If they did, Airbus would stop supplying them with data, cutting Jeppesen off from about half the flight planning market on earth. Jeppesen managers aren't that stupid, and Boeing likes the revenue from Jeppesen too much to risk that.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: neutronstar73
Posted 2012-11-29 21:50:41 and read 6733 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):
It was done during the tanker complain, Boeing made claims that the 767 gives pilot full control over their aircraft and better able to sustain damage. Boeing said the KC-30 is less survivable and more vulnerable to attack than the Boeing KC-767 Advanced Tanker.

I don't think that is hitting below the belt. Boeing was clearly referencing the Airbus FBW regime as compared to the 767's conventional control setup; as far as damage control, they were looking probably at areas of construction that would lead them to believe that the 767 was slightly better; and survivability was likely due to the EW suite offered by each manufacturer, and perhaps the Boeing offering was more robust.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):

Seats and isle in the A320 are wider 737
Seats and isle in the A380 are wider 747
Fan diameter and bypass ratio on the A320neo is greater than than on the 737MAX"

I would think those things are quite subjective in the fact that (seat and aisle wise) it really is down to the operator, so that is not a "always true statement".

And while the fan and bypass are greater, Boeing can come back and say the A320NEO will pay a greater drag penalty as a result, so that is quite ridiculous to point that out as a clear advantage.

Each bird has its advantages and disadvantages. We'll see when they actually fly who puts up the best number in whatever regime they wish to compare.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Bogi
Posted 2012-11-29 22:34:53 and read 6657 times.


Exciting story from @Bloomberg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7v47nXWzAs

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: pvjin
Posted 2012-11-29 23:04:28 and read 6629 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
Airbus is showing their frustration. They've been able to beat Boeing in the narrow-body market, but as far as the wide-body market, Airbus will never build a more succesful plane than the 777 pax/freighter.. And the 787 looks like it might be a winner as well

Lol a lot of conclusion from simple ad. No, Airbus is definitely not frustrated, they are doing just well and will eventually some day take back their position as the biggest manufacturer, as if it really matters which manufacturer sells a bit more planes.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-30 00:25:29 and read 6546 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 167):

Customers don't pay more for an extra inch of seat width, a larger fan diameter, or fly by wire. Customers buy the lowest price ticket, which is usually from an airline that operates a more efficient and reliable fleet.

Can you show me where airlines offer premium economy, business, first, and suite class seats for the same price as economy ? They do pay for FBW if it reduces weight and increases the envelope and thus allows for more payload. They do also pay for better engine efficiency, that is the main improvement with the 787, 747-8, A320neo, and 737MAX.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 168):
There was no statement there that the KC-30 was poorly constructed or "plastic". Translating survivability in combat (which the USAF agreed with) into a statement about the safety of commercial is, at best, a long stretch.

There was, and a lot more including pilots did not have full control a KC-30 due to the FBW, the boom would snap, that they were a national security risk etc. Boeing website they used during the initial KC-X assessment and subsequent appeal was removed some time back. More threads than any other topic I can think of were removed from MilAv over this as well.

Edit : to be balanced, I should also state that NG pulled their website and data off the net as well.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 168):

I pointed out which statement was untrue right after you asked; Airbus overstated the A380 market share by 5%.

What are your numbers ? Can I ask you what percentage in your view the 787 with around 40 aircraft in service ?

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 168):
They do *not* share the Airbus database with Boeing Commercial Airplanes. If they did, Airbus would stop supplying them with data, cutting Jeppesen off from about half the flight planning market on earth.

That is exactly what has happened, EADS has refused to supply the data to Jepessen.

[Edited 2012-11-30 00:30:27]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: raffik
Posted 2012-11-30 02:03:10 and read 6404 times.

I thought it was very funny and clever marketing actually. These two airlines will always be rivals, they are competing against one another. If Airbus claim that Boeing are being dishonest with their claims, then I think they have a right to tell people! It's just tit for tat.

The airlines will make their own minds up and choose the manufacturer who offers the best solution for their needs.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: EPA001
Posted 2012-11-30 04:38:16 and read 6237 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 171):
Airbus is definitely not frustrated, they are doing just well and will eventually some day take back their position as the biggest manufacturer

I guess they still are in that position. They already have been for quite some years and are intending to stay in that position for quite some time to come.  .

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2012-11-30 06:06:27 and read 6111 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 36):
There's no such cause of action. Only persons can be defamed, not things. Slander is verbal defamation.

  

I find it somewhat amusing at how frequently some members think lawsuits should be filed ...

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 103):
So for them to now claim that the MAX will be 8% better than the NEO…… Something doesn't quite add up.

The 737-8MAX has a 12 seat advantage over the A320neo. It is therefore entirely possible that it has 8% better per seat costs.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 103):
In regards to their claims that the 747-8 has a better CASM than the A380….. I don’t think even the most dedicated Boeing fan believes that.

CASM is by definition dependent on seat configuration. There is no hard and fast rule as to which has the better CASM. It depends on the configuration. I fail to see how a 467 seat 747-8 can't have a better CASM than a 555 seat A380. The fact that airlines are not likely to use a 467 seat configuration in the 747-8 is beside the point.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 120):
You'd find somewhere on this site the comparison between 320s and 737s ( of course to the extraordinary benefit of the seattle product ) and now this :
When ad battle started

Like any comparison between one OEM's product and another, it is entirely possible that the figures have been massaged somewhat to make their own product look better than the opposition's, but using the assumptions that were made in that comparison, ridiculous though it may be, the figures are not false per se.

Both manufacturers do this. I find it somewhat hypocritical that Airbus are taking the moral high ground by accusing Boeing of stretching the truth.

From the article in the OP:

Quote:
The manufacturers have promoted competing planes with different sets of numbers for decades, each choosing parameters that would give its own model an edge with buyers.

I think this is exactly what's happening. To claim that one manufacturer is stretching the truth is a bit over the top. Both present a set of truths about their product which makes their product look superior. That is to be expected.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):
Well using the Lufthansa example, where Airbus says the A380 has 525 seats in a typical configuration, almost exactly that is what Lufthansa has installed (526), and Boeing says the the 747-8i has 467 seats in a typical configuration, Lufthansa has 362.

LH's A380 has 8F and 98C in a 526 seat layout: 20% premium.
LH's 747-8 has 8F and 92C in a 362 seat layout: 28% premium.

The 747-8 is in a more premium heavy, lower density configuraton than the A380. It is therefore not an apples to apples comparison.

Quoting zeke (Reply 134):
Boeing in the advertisement says that the 747-8i is 8% more efficient per seat than the A380 (using their 467 seats), when a real customer has 20%+ less seats installed, what does that say about they advertising ?

Nothing.

The fact that no airline has so far chosen to fit a 467 seat configuration into their 747-8 isn't because it's physically impossible or legally impermissible to do so, but rather it's because of the lack of airline interest in the type. If KE was the only operator of the A380 and configured it in a 407 seat configuration, would you then argue that Airbus' base spec 525 seat configuration is hopelessly optimistic?

Just because LH chooses to configure their aircraft in a low density, 362 seat layout doesn't mean that there won't be an airline in future that orders the 747-8 and configures the aircraft in a high density layout with 467 (or more) seats. I will concede that the possibility of that happening is slim to none, but not because it is an overly optimistic configuration, but because of the lack of airline interest in the type.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: sxf24
Posted 2012-11-30 06:18:06 and read 6076 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 172):
Can you show me where airlines offer premium economy, business, first, and suite class seats for the same price as economy ? They do pay for FBW if it reduces weight and increases the envelope and thus allows for more payload. They do also pay for better engine efficiency, that is the main improvement with the 787, 747-8, A320neo, and 737MAX.

I never said the words you're trying to put in my mouth. Marginal differences in cabin width don't impact revenue - I.e. no one pays $1 more for a 1" wider seat in the same class of service. However, wider fuselages and larger fans have a significant impact on weight and drag, increasing costs for airlines.

For what it's worth, FBW doesn't reduce weight.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-30 06:26:39 and read 6090 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 172):
offer premium economy, business, first, and suite class seats for the same price as economy ?

Ah but they do . . . when ever people upgrade using their travel miles . . . but I guess you can say that those travel miles are not free either . . .   

Quoting zeke (Reply 172):
KC-30 due to the FBW, the boom would snap,

Warning: Joke alert !!! - No need to credit the FBW . . . the boom can snap off just by itself thank you . . .   

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 174):
I guess they still are in that position. They already have been for quite some years and are intending to stay in that position for quite some time to come. .

Be it as it may, Boeing can still claim the "largest factory building in the world". Don't know what good is that claim in a sell campaign . . . just as good as being the manufacturer as the largest commercial airplane in the world . . . I guess   

bt

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: CM
Posted 2012-11-30 07:28:23 and read 6008 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 176):
For what it's worth, FBW doesn't reduce weight.

Actually, it can, and it does on the A320. Maneuver Load Alleviation saves a couple hundred lbs of OEW for the A320 by reducing the loads the structure sees. As Zeke noted, FBW can also used to provide capability which would otherwise add weight (like "negative droop" for the ailerons to improve landing field length - also an A320 feature) . On a widebody aircraft with much larger wing span, stabilizers, and bigger moment arms in general, the savings can be in the thousands of lbs. Boeing has publicly stated use of MLA in the 787 control laws took 4,000-5,000 lbs out of the 787 wing. Boeing has also used MLA to increase payload on the 777F without increasing structural weight. The 737 will try to take advantage of MLA on the MAX, when the spoilers become FBW. Definitely, FBW can be used as a tool to save aircraft weight.

Edit: Clarification & removed airport acronym for MLA  

[Edited 2012-11-30 08:15:46]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-30 07:38:25 and read 5992 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 172):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 168):

I pointed out which statement was untrue right after you asked; Airbus overstated the A380 market share by 5%.

What are your numbers ?

The A380 was launched in Dec 2000 with 50 orders. Since that time, it has gathered a total of 257 orders (source: Airbus.com). Since Dec 2000 the 747 has gathered 61 orders for passenger models (source:boeing.com). Therefore the total A380 market share since both have been in the market is 257/(257+61) = 81%.

If you include the *total* market (i.e. 747's sold before the A380 was available) then the A380 share is far lower but, in the context of the ad, that's clearly not what Airbus was talking about.

Quoting zeke (Reply 172):
Can I ask you what percentage in your view the 787 with around 40 aircraft in service ?

The ad was about market share...the market is the buying and selling of aircraft. In service number has nothing to do with it. The A380 share is *way* below 86% if we talk about aircraft in service.

Quoting zeke (Reply 172):
That is exactly what has happened, EADS has refused to supply the data to Jepessen.

No, they didn't. At least as of yesterday, Jeppesen had Airbus data available for JetPlanner.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 176):
For what it's worth, FBW doesn't reduce weight.

CM beat me to it...it can reduce weight by a huge amount.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: sxf24
Posted 2012-11-30 07:39:17 and read 5983 times.

Quoting CM (Reply 178):

Actually, it can. And it does on the A320, but only to the tune of a couple hundred lbs. On a widebody with much larger span, tail, and moment arms in general, the savings can be in the thousands of lbs. Boeing has publicly stated MLA in the 787 control law took 4,000-5,000 lbs out of the 787 wing. Boeing also uses MLA to save weight on the 777F. The 737 will try to take advantage of MLA on the MAX, when the spoilers become FBW. Definitely, FBW can help save weight.

I think the comparison is between the A320 and 737. Trying to paint FBW as a competitive advantage for a narrowbody aircraft is disingenuous. Both technologies have their strengths and the superiority of one over another is subjective.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-11-30 07:39:49 and read 5998 times.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 175):
The 747-8 is in a more premium heavy, lower density configuraton than the A380. It is therefore not an apples to apples comparison.

The density is actually higher, see below.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 175):

The fact that no airline has so far chosen to fit a 467 seat configuration into their 747-8 isn't because it's physically impossible or legally impermissible to do so, but rather it's because of the lack of airline interest in the type.

We are talking about the same airline, I suggest we will see a much lower seat count again at Korean.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 175):

KE was the only operator of the A380 and configured it in a 407 seat configuration, would you then argue that Airbus' base spec 525 seat configuration is hopelessly optimistic

Not at all, Korean have over a foot more seat pitch in business than most carriers.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 175):

Just because LH chooses to configure their aircraft in a low density, 362 seat layout doesn't mean that there won't be an airline in future that orders the 747-8 and configures the aircraft in a high density layout with 467 (or more) seats. I will concede that the possibility of that happening is slim to none, but not because it is an overly optimistic configuration, but because of the lack of airline interest in the type.

It is actually higher density, F class has reduced pitch, and herringbone business allow for higher density. The same density seats in the A380 would generate similar distribution of classes.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 176):

Have you got evidence of that ?, as carriers that have A380s have said customers have gone out of their way to travel on it. Some even have charged a premium to do so.

FBW does reduce weight through lighter and simpler control systems, and allows a structure to carry higher loads than usual through active control of the lift distribution.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: sxf24
Posted 2012-11-30 09:18:20 and read 5861 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 181):
FBW does reduce weight through lighter and simpler control systems, and allows a structure to carry higher loads than usual through active control of the lift distribution.

If that's the case, why do A320s have more structure than 737s carry lower loads?

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: flood
Posted 2012-11-30 09:45:17 and read 5826 times.

Not quite as provocative, but it seems we have a new one:



eta, a bit easier to read here: http://twitter.com/e_russell/status/274560865393582080/photo/1

[Edited 2012-11-30 09:48:28]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: CM
Posted 2012-11-30 09:56:36 and read 5803 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 182):
If that's the case, why do A320s have more structure than 737s carry lower loads?

The higher A320 OEW (relative to the 737) comes from many things, not all of which are related to the structural strength of the aircraft. Here are just a few examples:

>Outward opening and larger cargo doors
>Full size right-hand cabin service doors
>3rd hydraulic system + RAT (ironically required because of the A320 FBW system)
>Larger engines
>Wider fusealge
>Larger tail
>Taller landing gear
>Overwing escape slides (needed due to taller gear)
>Main landing gear doors
>Basic structural provisions for a cargo handling system
>Later cert basis (added cert requirments often drive added weight)

This list could go on and on, but you get the idea.

Edit: Spelling

[Edited 2012-11-30 10:28:03]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: sxf24
Posted 2012-11-30 10:39:05 and read 5733 times.

Quoting CM (Reply 184):
The higher A320 OEW (relative to the 737) comes from many things, not all of which are related to the structural strength of the aircraft.

So a higher OEW to carry fewer passengers and cargo is a good thing because you get additional features that you probably won't use?

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-30 11:32:53 and read 5661 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 180):
Trying to paint FBW as a competitive advantage for a narrowbody aircraft is disingenuous. Both technologies have their strengths and the superiority of one over another is subjective.

It's not disingenuous, it's true. FBW is simpler, lighter, more reliable, and easier to maintain. There are some niche situations where non-FBW is superior but none of those niches extend in a meaningful way into large commercial jets.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 182):
If that's the case, why do A320s have more structure than 737s carry lower loads?

That's the wrong comparrison. As CM noted, there are a ton of things going on with weight that have nothing to do with FBW. The point is that the A320 would be heavier than it is if it didn't have FBW.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 185):
So a higher OEW to carry fewer passengers and cargo is a good thing because you get additional features that you probably won't use?

FBW isn't an additional feature that you won't use, it's a core system that gets used every single day. Notice that, since the A320 came out, neither Boeing nor Airbus have done a new type with non-FBW. Every time they have the chance, they stuff FBW into older types too (747-8, 737MAX).

Tom.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-30 11:45:08 and read 5627 times.

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 185):
So a higher OEW to carry fewer passengers and cargo is a good thing because you get additional features that you probably won't use?

Ah, but the wider seat feature (because of the wider fuselage) is used everyday by every A320 passenger  

bt

[Edited 2012-11-30 11:46:10]

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2012-11-30 11:51:25 and read 5615 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 183):


From the ad . . .

"you don't get a choice of engine"

The original intent of having only one engines for the 737 NG & now the MAX is the attempt by both Boeing and GE to keep the engine price down.

Can't really say how well that worked . . .

bt

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2012-12-01 04:02:03 and read 5252 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 181):
It is actually higher density, F class has reduced pitch, and herringbone business allow for higher density. The same density seats in the A380 would generate similar distribution of classes.

Perhaps density is not the right word, but it is definitely a more premium-heavy configuration on the 747-8. LH has F and J ahead of door 3 on the main deck and on the upper deck, which accounts for more than half of the available floor space on the 747-8. I think this accounts for the relatively low seat count.

Quoting flood (Reply 183):
Not quite as provocative, but it seems we have a new one:

Interesting to see that they didn't make note of the A320's 1980s origins ...

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: Daysleeper
Posted 2012-12-01 04:28:08 and read 5225 times.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 175):
CASM is by definition dependent on seat configuration. There is no hard and fast rule as to which has the better CASM. It depends on the configuration. I fail to see how a 467 seat 747-8 can't have a better CASM than a 555 seat A380. The fact that airlines are not likely to use a 467 seat configuration in the 747-8 is beside the point.

There is no reason it can’t – In fact it may well do. The point is Boeing manipulated the figures by using almost 10” more pitch on the A380 J class seats than those on the 748i. Had they not done this and used identical seating in the comparison then the A380 would be able to have far more than 555 seats.

Or as the article pointed out, had Boeing used the same seats in the 748i as in the A380 then it would only be able to seat 405 – Meaning the A380 would have an 150 seat advantage and a far better CASM.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: mffoda
Posted 2012-12-01 05:45:46 and read 5140 times.

Here's an interesting piece from a NON A-netter, without an ax to grind. Regarding this type of advertising.

"Airbus Boeing Ad War Is Just Plane Stupid"


Quoting:

"Why is disparaging a competitor a big mistake?

There are so many reasons why directly “knocking” a competitor by name is ineffective. Here are six of them.

1- Free advertising. When companies disparage their rivals by name, they make a free brand impression for them.

2- No reasons to buy your product. Disparaging the competition does nothing to give buyers reasons to buy your product. In fact, many presume you are knocking your competitor because they are the one to beat.

3- Makes you look bad. When you disparage competitors, many in the target audience think negatively about you.

4- When you “put down” popular products, you are putting down the people that like them. Those you insult will not be inclined to buy your products, and they will spread the negative word about you to their friends – resulting in a negative word-of-mouth pyramid saying bad things about your company and products.

5- Makes you look arrogant and insecure at the same time. Consumers learn at an early age that good companies don't “bad-mouth” competitors. Leading companies know their products are good and have no reason to talk negatively about competitors.

6- Puts a target on your back. When you tell the marketplace that your products are better than popular competitors, you are putting a target on your own back. Many will go out of their way to find defects and prove you wrong"



Read more at the following link...

http://www.businessinsider.com/airbu...plane-stupid-2012-12#ixzz2Do6WkC4P

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: SchorschNG
Posted 2012-12-01 09:32:17 and read 4917 times.

To be honest, a number of Boeing advertisements were actually quite rubbish. That doesn't mean I really consider the Airbus thing a good more, but the ad is actually true: Boeings comparisons are actually close to fraud. The latest B747-8 ad is one example. Still didn't figure out where Boeing pulled the "30% advantage in cargo volume" from.

Topic: RE: Airbus Takes A Swing At Boeing With Pinocchio Ad
Username: CM
Posted 2012-12-01 10:39:01 and read 4829 times.

Quoting SchorschNG (Reply 192):
Still didn't figure out where Boeing pulled the "30% advantage in cargo volume" from.

It's a comparison of revenue cargo volume. At the seat counts described (467/555), once you put all the passenger bags in the hold, the 748 has 30% more space remaining for revenue cargo.

Quoting SchorschNG (Reply 192):
Boeings comparisons are actually close to fraud.

If this were the case, Airbus would be doing more than buying cheeky ads which don't even have the stones to state what false claims Boeing is making. The reality is, Boeing provides the assumptions used in the comparison (as unrealistic or as skewed in Boeing's favor as they might be) and has responded to Airbus by saying they stand behind their claims. If Airbus truly believes fraud has been committed, they will certainly escalate things beyond ads in the trade rags. On the other hand, if all this boils down to is seat economics resulting from Boeing using unrealistic seat counts for the comparison. Airbus should grin, remember all the lame claims Leahy has made about Boeing products over the years, and send Boeing a note saying "well played".


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