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Topic: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Triple7LR
Posted 2012-11-29 20:44:50 and read 14976 times.

I know it's being discussed on the last OAG post, but I think it's worth it's on post. Here's an article from the cranky flyer:

http://crankyflier.com/2012/11/27/so...ng-atlanta-delta-must-be-thrilled/

IMHO I still think its too early to tell.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-11-29 21:38:42 and read 14790 times.

Quoting Triple7LR (Thread starter):

This has worked out, yet again, very well for Delta.

WN did the same when they bought their way into SLC.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Byrdluvs747
Posted 2012-11-29 21:42:37 and read 14758 times.

Too bad. I'm actually cheering for WN in ATL.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-30 04:10:44 and read 14160 times.

I'm not getting into this thread too much but those of you saying the merger is a disaster, you are way ahead of yourelves, it has barely started, those of you saying it's gonna go down to 100 flights or below, do you realize how many flights would have to be cut compared to what they are at, they'll probably be at about 140-160.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2012-11-30 04:32:43 and read 14080 times.

I think you guys are making a bit MUCH about WN @ ATL. What did you expect?? That DAL would run in fear because WN bought Air Tran to get into ATL?? They haven't run in Fear of UA/CO and we have a bunch of flights out of ATL as well. It doesn't work like that WN is a major carrier but they're not the ONLY major, Nobody is getting off of Delta to fly WN There or anywhere else for that matter. Those who are going to fly WN are not flying anyone else and without WN interlining?? Nobody is going to Get off of Delta schlep their bags over to WN to fly them. It's not time saving NOR cost effective. Air Tran and WN don't even have joint counter space. Air Tran's check in counters are over in the Exit Lobby for crying out loud near the Marta exit. across from Baggage claim, IMHO WN is NOT doing themselves any favors with the operation they've got going on there. Many Atlanteans don't even KNOW the two are a single airline and looking at their operation?? I can't see it either. There IS front line counter space available in the North Terminal and WN's counters are NOT so busy that Air Tran has to work in a Corner of the Baggage claim lobby. That's an embarrassment !!

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-30 05:31:36 and read 13823 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 1):
This has worked out, yet again, very well for Delta.

Without a codeshare or full integration, it seems to me that the jury has to still be out on the lasting effect on Delta at ATL. My sense of it is that at the end of the day, WN will compete for less traffic, especially connecting traffic, at ATL, but the traffic for which WN competes will be somewhat higher quality. That may be a win for DL on net, but I don't see how that is so blatantly obvious that we can draw that conclusion at this point.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2012-11-30 06:43:24 and read 13502 times.

Im so exhausted hearing Atl is overrated. Atl is the main city in the southeast. Period. It is the number 9 media market has well over 5million people which is more than many states. It is extremely well connected. It has the largest concentration of federal offices out side of dc. It has a very high wealth rate. It is the most affordable of the top ten wealthy cities. Its a music hub biz hub medical hub rail hub education hub. It is home to hundreds of regionsl headquarters and headquarters to some of the most iconic and well known brands on earth. Does it have flaws of course.

Swa and Airtran do share ticketing facilities in the North terminal they both have the most check ins in that side. The marta checkin area was an ingenious way to make it easier for those riding the train in to access check in.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2012-11-30 06:49:50 and read 13419 times.

When did ATL-ROC end????
This is a bad merger, period.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 6):

And didnt WN say at the time of the merger anouncement, that ATL would be its largest station?

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-11-30 07:08:13 and read 13135 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 1):
WN did the same when they bought their way into SLC.

Is WN smaller today than Morris Air was in SLC?

Its becoming more and more clear that WN's real intention was first to get rid of FL and second to have a presence at ATL. WN's costs are too high to operate the 717 and too high to profitability carry connecting pax through ATL.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 7):
I think you guys are making a bit MUCH about WN @ ATL. What did you expect??

I think initially most everyone expected, including Michael Boyd, that WN would operate FL's existing schedule through ATL and would use the 717s in other parts of the system. Plus need adds like BDL, MHT, PVD, OAK

Boyd himself did a study showing that for WN to work in ATL had to operate a hub since over 50% of FL's traffic was connecting. Well once WN said they would pull down the hub, it became clear that they had no intention of beign a big player in ATL since the local market just isnt there. I am now wondering if WN will even serve LGA or DCA since they might want those slots for use to other markets.

WN is a legacy carrier straddled with high costs, though still a productive work force.

If WN simply wanted into ATL with flights to MDW, BWI, HOU, DEN, PHX, LAS I think with the new terminal there would now be enough space for them on E to do so. I am beginning o think WN simply wanted to get rid of FL.

I think in the end WN will serve from ATL
DEN
MDW
BWI
HOU
AUS
SDF (will this last?)
ORF (will this last?)
LAX
LAS
PHX
MCO (need more than 1 flight and need EYW connection)
SFO (interesting they didnt go for OAK)
SEA (will this last AS should add a #3 for summer 13)
SAT

plus
STL (most obvious future add)
MCI
DAL in 2014
FLL
TPA
MKE (part of MKE not ATL focus)

But I could see big markets like BOS, MSP, DCA, LGA gone.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Atlwest1
Posted 2012-11-30 07:20:57 and read 12977 times.

If they cut it back they drastically their will be a ton of open gate space in Atl. Not to mention they will have lost on a good oppurtunity.

I honestly see them downgrading the atl fl hub but dialing it up in the swa way. They will not ever dominate Atl like they do other markets nor will they even be in the position like they r in Denver. They will coexist with delta. I've said it times before they bring nothing new to Atl that isn't already done or couldn't have been done by Fl.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: bos2laf
Posted 2012-11-30 07:23:23 and read 12957 times.

I'm starting to wonder if WN is creating an opening for B6 in ATL.

Everything I've heard from people I know is that B6 felt that the WN/FL merger would close the door on them returning to ATL. It sounds like it may in fact do the opposite.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: infiniti329
Posted 2012-11-30 07:44:09 and read 12691 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 12):
But I could see big markets like BOS, MSP, DCA, LGA gone.

I don't think WN will hand over LGA-ATL completey over to DL. I dont believe that for a second. FL is making money on this route and WN will make even more. LGA-ATL on WN metal will speak volumes in terms of cargo along with paying pax.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-11-30 07:48:22 and read 12625 times.

Quoting bos2laf (Reply 14):
I'm starting to wonder if WN is creating an opening for B6 in ATL.

Me too

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 15):
I don't think WN will hand over LGA-ATL completey over to DL. I dont believe that for a second. FL is making money on this route and WN will make even more. LGA-ATL on WN metal will speak volumes in terms of cargo along with paying pax.

Youre right, except for slots. The issue will be can WN make more money elsewhere than LGA/DCA-LGA? Which would be profitable I am sure. Are scarce slots better used for markets other than ATL.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-11-30 07:50:31 and read 12598 times.

Quoting bos2laf (Reply 14):
I'm starting to wonder if WN is creating an opening for B6 in ATL.

I should all that opening will be if WN drops BOS and NYC nonstop from ATL. Also there might be some Florida opportunities if WN doesnt replace FL capacity with WN capacity, like FLL and MCO. ATL-MCO would be a good add for B6 if they continue expanding from MCO to Latin American and Carribbean

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-11-30 07:57:48 and read 12523 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
And didnt WN say at the time of the merger anouncement, that ATL would be its largest station?

ATL was never going to be larger than MDW, PHX, HOU, etc. The company probably said it was going to be one of its larger stations, but definitely not the largest.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-30 08:05:35 and read 12413 times.

All I'm gonna say is your all being too negative and you will be pleasantly surprised when you find out you are all wrong.  

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-11-30 08:47:59 and read 11948 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 12):
I think in the end WN will serve from ATL

I would suggest that RDU might stand a chance of hanging in there, although with the cutting of CLT maybe not

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: BC77008
Posted 2012-11-30 09:07:03 and read 11720 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 3):
ATL is way over-rated. It is like Dubai, a glorified connecting hub, that's all

And the concourses all have the look and feel of being very long single-wide trailers.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-11-30 09:12:16 and read 11849 times.

One thing that I keep thinking about in all of this. How many markets were DL dumped in mainline or added capacity to compete with FL will see some pretty big cuts coming down the road. That may be something to look at 1 or 2 years down the road and compare back to today. I would not be shocked to see cities with mainline go down to RJs (or 717s) and those that are hanging on with RJs get scaled back.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-30 09:29:56 and read 11667 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 23):
Similarly, I don't think WN is going to cede market share in ATL with the plan of re-taking it later against DL. That would make no sense and I'm certain it isn't their strategy.

I agree. My point is that if WN carries (say) two thirds FL's former passengers at the end of the day but those are the better-yielding two thirds of FL's former passengers, I'm not so sure that leaves Delta in a better spot.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-11-30 09:39:16 and read 11668 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 23):
MSY 3x

I should have added MSY, that is an obvious add for WN

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
I agree. My point is that if WN carries (say) two thirds FL's former passengers at the end of the day but those are the better-yielding two thirds of FL's former passengers, I'm not so sure that leaves Delta in a better spot.

Good point. If WN has good RM, they can accomplish this.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Josh32121
Posted 2012-11-30 11:06:13 and read 10816 times.

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 24):
And the concourses all have the look and feel of being very long single-wide trailers.

From the outside. Have you been inside? They've spent money on the parts that the customers actually see: the interiors...much like DL has done with its fleet. It's not flashy, but it's reasonably comfortable, and an easy-to-understand layout.

Quoting enilria (Reply 23):
I think we will see B6 announce either PHL or ATL in the next couple of weeks.

B6 already gave ATL a go a few years ago and pulled out, right? Do you think WN's acquisition of FL changes enough about the ATL market to justify reopening ATL? There is TONS of capacity between ATL-NYC already with AA, DL, FL/WN, and UA. Would it make sense for them to try again in such a diluted market (although ATL-JFK admittedly only has a few DL flights a day)?

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Catiii
Posted 2012-11-30 11:09:46 and read 10829 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 6):
but those of you saying the merger is a disaster, you are way ahead of yourelves, it has barely started

"Barely started?" It's been over two years since the announcement of the merger. . .

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-11-30 11:10:39 and read 10819 times.

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 30):
B6 already gave ATL a go a few years ago and pulled out, right?

Yes, but they were flying ATL-LGB, not anything that "2012 B6" would fly.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-11-30 11:57:30 and read 10352 times.

Quoting Catiii (Reply 31):
"Barely started?" It's been over two years since the announcement of the merger. . .

No kidding- 2 years after the much larger DL/NW merger had begun, the airlines had been 100% integrated for 6 months (except for the FAs).

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2012-11-30 11:57:57 and read 10520 times.

When WN announced the sale of the 717's where did everyone think those lines of flying would mostly affect? No surprise to me that ultimately ATL would take a big hit.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-11-30 12:03:32 and read 10427 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):

Also B6 didn't have smaller E90s then. I'd could see B6 flying ATL-MCO 3x daily with E90s connecting to Latin Anetica carribbean. B6 should also do one daily EWY from MCO.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-11-30 12:10:08 and read 10390 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
Quoting enilria (Reply 23):
Similarly, I don't think WN is going to cede market share in ATL with the plan of re-taking it later against DL. That would make no sense and I'm certain it isn't their strategy.

I agree. My point is that if WN carries (say) two thirds FL's former passengers at the end of the day but those are the better-yielding two thirds of FL's former passengers, I'm not so sure that leaves Delta in a better spot.
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 27):
Good point. If WN has good RM, they can accomplish this.

I think they will definitely be better yielding, but WN's costs are also much higher.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 27):
Quoting enilria (Reply 23):
MSY 3x

I should have added MSY, that is an obvious add for WN

  

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 30):
Quoting enilria (Reply 23):
I think we will see B6 announce either PHL or ATL in the next couple of weeks.

B6 already gave ATL a go a few years ago and pulled out, right?

Yes, but they were flying to LGB/OAK. They won't do that again. They did JFK the last couple of months of the service to route the A/C/.

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 30):
There is TONS of capacity between ATL-NYC already

I'm not really thinking they will add JFK, although FL just dropped 3 RTs to LGA. I think they will do BOS/FLL/MCO. They will probably run WN out of the BOS market from ATL.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: United_fan
Posted 2012-11-30 12:30:29 and read 10208 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
When did ATL-ROC end????
This is a bad merger, period

It's still on , at least til WN comes to town in April . Actually,it's been up-sized to a 73G as TRS603.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/TRS603

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-11-30 12:36:58 and read 10139 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 35):
No kidding- 2 years after the much larger DL/NW merger had begun, the airlines had been 100% integrated for 6 months (except for the FAs).

Then you look at UA/CO who are still having major issues. WN/FL I would say is pretty close to the middle. However, and this is my opinion, WN/FL isn't a merger. It is pretty much just an acquisition where they are methodically integrating parts of the company. When you look at the others they slapped the unifying brand on the entire fleet regardless of on board layout and such. WN could easily just decide to brand everything as Southwest, but they want the brand experience to be the same.

Everyone has their opinion on how this has gone. Personally I would have liked to see everything move over and just leave international on the FL res system to book. However, there are people in a higher pay grade that are making those decisions while keeping the company profitable.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-11-30 12:48:08 and read 10057 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 40):
Then you look at UA/CO who are still having major issues. WN/FL I would say is pretty close to the middle. However, and this is my opinion, WN/FL isn't a merger. It is pretty much just an acquisition where they are methodically integrating parts of the company. When you look at the others they slapped the unifying brand on the entire fleet regardless of on board layout and such. WN could easily just decide to brand everything as Southwest, but they want the brand experience to be the same.

Everyone has their opinion on how this has gone. Personally I would have liked to see everything move over and just leave international on the FL res system to book. However, there are people in a higher pay grade that are making those decisions while keeping the company profitable.

UA/CO should have been a monster by now... but thankfully Smisek couldn't manage his way out of a cardboard box.

WN's way of doing things is hardly methodical. It is more akin to running head first into a wall over and over again and hoping you find an open door. You are correct it's definitely being treated as an acquisition... whatever is the southwest way is going, regardless if it is extremely inefficient or antiquated. It is quite humorous watching that bite them in the rear end when it comes to international flying!

I'm enjoying watching the train wreck, though.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-11-30 13:31:08 and read 9703 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 43):
In its current state it's primarily a low-yielding, high volume connecting hub

Which makes me wonder why AirTran ever flew ATL-CLT, from one "low-yielding, high volume connecting hub" to another.

Apparently it had the lowest O&D traffic in the network, so I'm actually surprised that it lasted as long as it did after the merger.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 21):
I would suggest that RDU might stand a chance of hanging in there

To expand on my own point, I think that as RDU has a lot less destinations than CLT then there might be some value in it as a route, although that depends on how long ATL remains as a "hub". Nonetheless I would guess (but am happy to be proven wrong) that the O&D market between RDU and ATL is larger than BWI-ORF or MSY-BHM which are current WN routes.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Triple7LR
Posted 2012-11-30 13:44:06 and read 9570 times.

Just curious. Does anyone think it matters that WN doesn't offer First or Business class or have lounges? I know to the everyday leisure traveler it doesn't matter but what about the business traveler? What perks can WN offer besides free bags and no change fees which can be waived by other airlines depending on your status?

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2012-11-30 13:46:04 and read 9549 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 19):
All I'm gonna say is your all being too negative and you will be pleasantly surprised when you find out you are all wrong.

Well since WN made FL quite my hometown airport after many years,, HOW will I be pleasantly surprised.....HMMMMM??????

Quoting United_fan (Reply 39):
It's still on , at least til WN comes to town in April . Actually,it's been up-sized to a 73G as TRS603.

Well, it was on that map in the blog, that's why I asked.

I keep wondering, if the DOT had forced DL to give up NW's four ATL gates, and WN had aquired them, would WN have even bothered with FL?

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-30 13:51:43 and read 9506 times.

Quoting Catiii (Reply 31):
"Barely started?" It's been over two years since the announcement of the merger. . .

And for about a year and a half they didn't do anything. The route changes are just getting into swing.

Quoting enilria (Reply 38):
They will probably run WN out of the BOS market from ATL.

No, they wouldn't. WN is at ATL for business passengers and they know they have to serve NYC, BOS, CHI etc... Thats why you haven't seen those end nor will you.

Quoting enilria (Reply 38):
although FL just dropped 3 RTs to LGA.

They dropped one of them over a year ago and the 2 less doesn't happen until July.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 42):
It is quite humorous watching that bite them in the rear end when it comes to international flying!

They haven't done anything wrong internationally, actually they continue to expand the recent additions. But when you look at your posts below you clearly won't say anything nice about any airline other then your favorite.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 42):
but thankfully Smisek couldn't manage his way out of a cardboard box.
Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 42):
I'm enjoying watching the train wreck, though.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-11-30 13:52:56 and read 9514 times.

Quoting Triple7LR (Reply 45):

Just curious. Does anyone think it matters that WN doesn't offer First or Business class or have lounges? I know to the everyday leisure traveler it doesn't matter but what about the business traveler? What perks can WN offer besides free bags and no change fees which can be waived by other airlines depending on your status?

I know WN is losing a pile of traditional FL customers for that very reason. I don't think singing FAs or free bags can make up for zero premium product!

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2012-11-30 14:25:23 and read 9223 times.

Those that were sitting in FL's "first class" are not sitting in DL's premium cabins. Comparing the FL "premium cabin" to DL's is like comparing apples to cucumbers.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: BD338
Posted 2012-11-30 14:42:43 and read 9025 times.

If WN are "retreating" in ATL and DL is "Thrilled" then all that means is that supply and demand is swinging towards DL having more pricing power in some markets. So get used to paying more. Be careful what you wish for.

I'm not convinced WN was ever going to maintain a full FL sized hub at ATL. They probably bought them for several reasons,including to integrate the effective parts into the WN network that could operate at the WN cost model level most profitably. The fact ATL (or any other aspect of the FL model) worked for FL doesn't necessarily mean it will work as WN+FL. I doubt it was ever considered that FL and its ops/network would be a mere 'bolt on' to the existing WN network. WN wanted some access to ATL to their major cities, but not necessarily all that came with FL. They got what they wanted, sliced off the bits they didn't need and redistributed assets around the rest of the company...i.e they merged the companies.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: lasmike
Posted 2012-11-30 14:59:57 and read 8852 times.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 7):
Air Tran and WN don't even have joint counter space. Air Tran's check in counters are over in the Exit Lobby for crying out loud near the Marta exit. across from Baggage claim, IMHO WN is NOT doing themselves any favors with the operation they've got going on there. Many Atlanteans don't even KNOW the two are a single airline and looking at their operation?? I can't see it either. There IS front line counter space available in the North Terminal and WN's counters are NOT so busy that Air Tran has to work in a Corner of the Baggage claim lobby. That's an embarrassment !!

The Airtran ticket counter you describe is a satellite counter for the benefit of customers coming off of MARTA. The main Airtran ticket counter is adjacent to the WN ticket counter in the north lobby. It's much larger than the satellite counter.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: lasmike
Posted 2012-11-30 15:06:15 and read 8781 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 48):
Just curious. Does anyone think it matters that WN doesn't offer First or Business class or have lounges? I know to the everyday leisure traveler it doesn't matter but what about the business traveler? What perks can WN offer besides free bags and no change fees which can be waived by other airlines depending on your status?
I know WN is losing a pile of traditional FL customers for that very reason. I don't think singing FAs or free bags can make up for zero premium product!

WN premium flyer program is called A List and A List Plus Rapid Rewards. They get a check in by pass lane so they don't have to wait in the regular lines. They also get access to the premium security lanes in most airports. They automatically get low boarding pass numbers reserved for them starting with A16 with A List Plus getting priority over A List. They also get priority stand by privileges.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2012-11-30 16:02:22 and read 8353 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 44):
Which makes me wonder why AirTran ever flew ATL-CLT, from one "low-yielding, high volume connecting hub" to another.

Apparently it had the lowest O&D traffic in the network, so I'm actually surprised that it lasted as long as it did after the merger.

I wonder that too, especially since FL wasn't raking in the cash. Like today FL flew its usual 3 flights to CLT. That compares to 12 for DL and 11 for US. Three flights for cheap connecting fares can't be worth it. Not a surprise that WN will fly to CLT from elsewhere.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-11-30 16:51:59 and read 7995 times.

I don't see how this is such a big surprise. Besides the few people that thought WN was going to be a "super strong competitor that will make DL bleed a lot more cash" most of us knew that WN doesn't run hubs and would probably drop most of the smaller cities while building up routes to the usual cities and make ATL a large WN station, similar to MDW or DAL or whatever, and not a massive FL-like hub

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: southwest737500
Posted 2012-11-30 17:27:22 and read 7799 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 57):

Flying CLT-ATL-PIT on AirTran tomorrow

Oh yeah they must be making some money if there adding a 4th flight and its on a 737. Alot of people pick on CLT to much

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: southwest737500
Posted 2012-11-30 17:35:50 and read 7691 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 57):

11 DL and 9 US and 3 FL

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-30 17:44:06 and read 7622 times.

So, it is becoming more apparent the WN strategy.

1. FL is no longer a competitor to WN, is that more important than ATL?
2. WN now has access to ATL

Missing anything?

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-11-30 17:57:58 and read 7503 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 61):
Missing anything?

3) WN can fly internationally

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2012-11-30 18:02:01 and read 7498 times.

WN cutting FL service in ATL

Quoting BD338 (Reply 52):
I'm not convinced WN was ever going to maintain a full FL sized hub at ATL. They probably bought them for several reasons,including to integrate the effective parts into the WN network that could operate at the WN cost model level most profitably. The fact ATL (or any other aspect of the FL model) worked for FL doesn't necessarily mean it will work as WN+FL. I doubt it was ever considered that FL and its ops/network would be a mere 'bolt on' to the existing WN network. WN wanted some access to ATL to their major cities, but not necessarily all that came with FL. They got what they wanted, sliced off the bits they didn't need and redistributed assets around the rest of the company...i.e they merged the companies.

  

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 48):
I know WN is losing a pile of traditional FL customers for that very reason. I don't think singing FAs or free bags can make up for zero premium product!

WN isn't PMFL and it sure as hell isn't DL. WN has a certain business model, and adding premium services like business class is not part of it and will not become part of it.

Quoting enilria (Reply 38):
I think they will do BOS/FLL/MCO.

So much for my hope of using B6 to fly from ATL to LAX/LGB/BUR.    None of those airports are great connection points for travel to the West Coast. I guess B6, if they return to ATL, would want to focus on getting ATL passengers on nonstop itineraries to East Coast destinations.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: vatveng
Posted 2012-11-30 18:06:41 and read 7468 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 25):
How many markets were DL dumped in mainline or added capacity to compete with FL will see some pretty big cuts coming down the road. That may be something to look at 1 or 2 years down the road and compare back to today. I would not be shocked to see cities with mainline go down to RJs (or 717s) and those that are hanging on with RJs get scaled back.

Well, a funny thing happened at Newport News (PHF). Right after AirTran pulled out, Delta pulled all of their mainline service from PHF. But the RJs filled up. So now Delta mainline is back in Newport News, in the form of a daily MD88 to Atlanta.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-30 18:22:20 and read 7346 times.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 63):
WN has a certain business model, and adding premium services like business class is not part of it and will not become part of it.

But if you look back, the same would have been said about WN adding LGA, BOS, MSP and all those major airports they started. Eventually WN will have some kind of premium cabin, whether it is first, business or premium economy, they will have something.

Quoting par13del (Reply 61):
1. FL is no longer a competitor to WN, is that more important than ATL?
2. WN now has access to ATL
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 62):
3) WN can fly internationally

4) WN gets relatively new 737-700s
5) WN gets more gates in MDW
6) Service to DCA (they probably wouldn't apply for DCA-AUS without knowing they have FL slots)
7) Greatly expanded LGA operation
8) 25 new destinations they are keeping
9) Going back to the ability to fly Internationally, they also get experience so they don't have to learn from mistakes

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2012-11-30 18:51:12 and read 7130 times.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 59):
Flying CLT-ATL-PIT on AirTran tomorrow

Oh yeah they must be making some money if there adding a 4th flight and its on a 737. Alot of people pick on CLT to much

That's the type of routing that probably won't be making FL any money. Just filling seats.

It's not matter of picking on CLT. It's simply that the 10th and 33rd largest metro areas can't support three airlines and over 20 daily mainline flights between them (a trip that's drivable I might add). Something had to give, and that's clearly the weakest party with little to gain and much to lose by keeping it.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 60):
11 DL and 9 US and 3 FL

Both airlines had an extra section today on CLT-ATL. Then threw me off. 11 and 9 normally.

[Edited 2012-11-30 18:53:22]

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-11-30 19:12:32 and read 6940 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 42):
WN's way of doing things is hardly methodical. It is more akin to running head first into a wall over and over again and hoping you find an open door. You are correct it's definitely being treated as an acquisition... whatever is the southwest way is going, regardless if it is extremely inefficient or antiquated. It is quite humorous watching that bite them in the rear end when it comes to international flying!

I'm enjoying watching the train wreck, though.

Sigh. Sure int'l flying isn't done on WN metal yet and that will be fixed once Amadeus is up and going.

The rest of your post is just childish though. I guess we could always look forward to WN filing Chapter 11 to get costs down so that way they would completely undercut your company which happened to take the "easy" road of bankruptcy. Dog WN all you want, but it takes a lot to make through the period airlines have and still workout a profit. As long as they stay in the black then they deserve some level of respect for making it work where it counts.

Quoting Triple7LR (Reply 45):
Just curious. Does anyone think it matters that WN doesn't offer First or Business class or have lounges? I know to the everyday leisure traveler it doesn't matter but what about the business traveler? What perks can WN offer besides free bags and no change fees which can be waived by other airlines depending on your status?

I would love to have a premium cabin on board for Business Select and available to A Plus members at a minimal upgrade fee. I don't see it happening though. Does it matter? As long as you see A1 to A15 full then it isn't having much of an effect. Free wi-fi, streaming video, and premium beverages are a nice touch, but others can match those too. From my exchanges with business passengers a lot of it comes down to the flexibility of the schedule and the ticket. When I've sat down with business passengers (while traveling) many bring up the ease of being able to miss a trip and reapply the funds to another flight for a year - with no penalty. Those that travel on Y or K (Business Select) love being able to move around to another flight with no change fees if they need - regardless of the day in most cases. It also helps that many business markets have a good deal of frequency so that allows them to move plans up or push them back at the last minute.

The biggest advantage WN has though are the employees keep the pax happy. Which is something that is definitely going into the contract negotiations right now and central to the WN business model.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 47):
And for about a year and a half they didn't do anything. The route changes are just getting into swing.

I wouldn't be shocked if FL was shopping around at the time and WN had to make a move or be faced with a larger competitor. Things were a bit slow early on but we are definitely seeing the gas pedal get pushed down a lot more now.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 47):
They haven't done anything wrong internationally, actually they continue to expand the recent additions. But when you look at your posts below you clearly won't say anything nice about any airline other then your favorite.

The only real mistake internationally that I can think of is the WestJet code-share falling through. This new res system is going to be extremely helpful in combating those issues going forward to hopefully look at other int'l partners. The Volaris code-share right now is pretty rough to make it work, so that will get better I can imagine.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 48):
I know WN is losing a pile of traditional FL customers for that very reason. I don't think singing FAs or free bags can make up for zero premium product!

Guess it depends who are the traditional FL customers. I'm sure WN is losing the bottom rung of flyers that can't afford the profitable air fares. I'm sure there are some higher elite pax that are leaving because they like their special cabin. WN still has plenty of premium passengers paying full or business fares and is seeing the growth in yields.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 58):
I don't see how this is such a big surprise. Besides the few people that thought WN was going to be a "super strong competitor that will make DL bleed a lot more cash" most of us knew that WN doesn't run hubs and would probably drop most of the smaller cities while building up routes to the usual cities and make ATL a large WN station, similar to MDW or DAL or whatever, and not a massive FL-like hub

This. At least someone gets it.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 65):
But if you look back, the same would have been said about WN adding LGA, BOS, MSP and all those major airports they started. Eventually WN will have some kind of premium cabin, whether it is first, business or premium economy, they will have something.

I hope a premium cabin shows up at some point, but I'm not holding my breath.  

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-30 19:32:42 and read 6782 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 67):
The only real mistake internationally that I can think of is the WestJet code-share falling through.

I agree but Southwest wasn't ready for a codeshare and WestJet didn't want to wait. I think there is a possibility that they partner with Porter Airlines. Porter already serves MDW, EWR, IAD and BOS. They only serve 2 cities that SWA doesn't serve in the US.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: SYfan100
Posted 2012-11-30 19:49:39 and read 6643 times.

Southwest is really rolling the dice with moving into Atlanta because of the cost for operating. Move from Low Fare Airline into one that moves about into major airports while trying to keep prices at a decent level still.
There is plenty of room for a second airline at Atlanta for those who do not think so! Can get their fare share of people while still doing well if they have a decent business plan.
Routes will always be added and canceled at different times because either:
A.They are seasonal.
B.There is no demand for them in which techincally it makes no sense to operate at the current time.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: capitalflyer
Posted 2012-11-30 20:41:34 and read 6336 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 12):
But I could see big markets like BOS, MSP, DCA, LGA gone

Not a snowball's chance in hell that WN will exit DCA. They spent millions to acquire 4 slots from NK and DCA is a great tourist destination which is WN bread and butter. I can see them leaving IAD before DCA. As it is they have only MDW and DEN from IAD (5x each). Perhaps they would keep DEN as this is beyond perimeter. I could see them switching an old Airtran slot used to go to ATL now to go to MDW or an additional Florida destination like FLL or PBI.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-11-30 21:22:43 and read 6182 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 12):
But I could see big markets like BOS, MSP, DCA, LGA gone.

Not gonna happen. They are gonna serve all of the major markets and some smaller ones. They will be at about 150-160 flights.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-11-30 21:52:09 and read 6155 times.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 30):

When WN announced the sale of the 717's where did everyone think those lines of flying would mostly affect? No surprise to me that ultimately ATL would take a big hit.

         Even before that. When WN started shopping the 717, it was pretty clear that reducing ATL's operations was in the cards.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2012-12-01 02:52:10 and read 5979 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):

This.
but I'm not so sure anything 2012 B6 would fly will work out that much better. Delta has a good....ok a ton...of capacity to New York and Boston. (and both have WN flights) I do think B6 will end up with a very small ATL station. (2-3x JFK/BOS maybe something in FL....but i think MCO/TPA/FLL would all end up burning money)

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):

early signs show a win for Delta. Better?

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 31):
I'd could see B6 flying ATL-MCO 3x daily with E90s connecting to Latin Anetica carribbean.

I can't. Why would they want to? WN and DL have a ton of capacity in the market. Just a way to burn money

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 37):
Which makes me wonder why AirTran ever flew ATL-CLT, from one "low-yielding, high volume connecting hub" to another.

trying to be a hub carrier and not Southwest.

Quoting Triple7LR (Reply 38):
Does anyone think it matters that WN doesn't offer First or Business class or have lounges?

Sure. People who were on FL just because of C will likely move to DL for C or YC

Quoting BD338 (Reply 43):

If WN are "retreating" in ATL and DL is "Thrilled" then all that means is that supply and demand is swinging towards DL having more pricing power in some markets. So get used to paying more. Be careful what you wish for.

.....Awh damnit. People having to pay what it cost to fly....I just wish airline employees could go back into BK and lose 50% again to lower those fares and pay for your fuel  
All sarcasm. This is a GREAT thing. If only more capacity would come from the US system.....

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 51):

Did i miss something? Why did WN "need" FL for that?

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 52):

So much for my hope of using B6 to fly from ATL to LAX/LGB/BUR.    None of those airports are great connection points for travel to the West Coast. I guess B6, if they return to ATL, would want to focus on getting ATL passengers on nonstop itineraries to East Coast destinations.

I would bet money on B6 never trying LAX/LGB to ATL again. Would be kinda cool to see the capacity dump from DL though. Maybe 73W to LGB and BUR this time(Delta IIRC started ATL-BUR and added crazy capacity to ATL-LAX)
I don't think B6 wants any part of that.

Quoting vatveng (Reply 53):
Well, a funny thing happened at Newport News (PHF). Right after AirTran pulled out, Delta pulled all of their mainline service from PHF. But the RJs filled up. So now Delta mainline is back in Newport News, in the form of a daily MD88 to Atlanta.

bah! As someone who has a ton of family in the Newport News and Poquoson area(and flying ATL-PHF/ORF and even RIC a good bit in my life)
Delta can not figure out what it wants with this route. I have seen all CRJ/ERJ. all CR7/CR9 all M88....or a mix of the above...Delta just can't figure it out.
If you want something more constant make the (hell) drive to ORF. (and to be honest I have been doing RIC over ORF. Less traffic and RIC gets a 57.)

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: billreid
Posted 2012-12-01 03:59:15 and read 5899 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 6):
I'm not getting into this thread too much but those of you saying the merger is a disaster, you are way ahead of yourelves, it has barely started, those of you saying it's gonna go down to 100 flights or below, do you realize how many flights would have to be cut compared to what they are at, they'll probably be at about 140-160.

Sorry, it is hard to agree with pro-WN statements from arms length. I actually see more positive progress out of AA than out of WN since the merger. At least AA is re-organizing not disorganizing.
This merger will go down as one of the biggest disasters in US Aviation.
Southwest is headed down a new path. The name of the company on Wall Street will change from "Southwest" to the "Deeply Troubled Southwest".
We look at what WN management has accomplished since merger and it can be summed up in two words
"Absolutely Nothing". The problem with WN is Senioritis ---- there are no new ideas coming out of all the 70 year olds running the ship, and in the end it will up on the rocks if they do not find there way.

Please someone please provide the list of good news out of WN over the last two years.......

I have not seen a single positive step from WN since the merger. The cranky flier is correct on ATL, and taking this further WN doesn't understand the "Rule of Holes".
-- When in a hole, stop digging!

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-12-01 04:19:17 and read 5893 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 63):
Sorry, it is hard to agree with pro-WN statements from arms length. I actually see more positive progress out of AA than out of WN since the merger. At least AA is re-organizing not disorganizing.

The facts speak for themselves, DL, AA, UA/CO all used the chpt.11 process to re-organize, tear down, remodel and re-invent themselves, remember that AA tried the same thing while all around them resorted to chpt.11, how well did that work out for them, WN certainely can look at AA for both sides of the same coin.

Is WN heading for chpt.11, who knows, what we do know is that their cost are continuing to rise, they eliminated a competitior which along with the downsizing that other carriers were doing allowed an overall increase in fares throughout the USA which has minimized their cost increases and the loss of the fuel hedges - think they paid too much attention to the jealous faction - worker productivity is still among the highest in the nation so its benefits are still there.
Bottom line is that something in the near future will have to be done about their cost, that is the big open secret in the room.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-12-01 04:25:52 and read 5888 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 63):

What the merger has revealed is that WN is not some nimble cutting edge airline, but an airline that neglected a good part of its infrastructure. Their labor costs are very high. I am aghast that they can't operate a 115 seat plane profitably but Delta can. Thst right there should be a warning about WN lack of potential in ATL. They can't code share still and can't take international reservations.....still. What's the hold up on two actions that even the simplest airline can manage??? The hold up is this 1971 Res System.

I do think that B6 could have an opportunity with ATL-MCO. There are connections beyond MCO that WN doesn't compete on where B6 could be a price leader. Also MCO is a bottomless market at fares under $150 each way. The existing capacity isn't an issue.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 59):

I didn't say WN would exit DCA but if you think WN can pull down ATL and ATL-DCA will provide the largest system benefit to WN, you're wrong. Moving ATL flights to more MDW, STL or if the perimeter rule allows HOU or DEN would provide more system profitability for WN. WN route planning would be crazy not to look at options for DCA slots other than ATL.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2012-12-01 06:39:45 and read 5724 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 65):
I didn't say WN would exit DCA but if you think WN can pull down ATL and ATL-DCA will provide the largest system benefit to WN, you're wrong. Moving ATL flights to more MDW, STL or if the perimeter rule allows HOU or DEN would provide more system profitability for WN. WN route planning would be crazy not to look at options for DCA slots other than ATL.

I think BOS-ATL will be a good test for WN. If WN doesn't achieve yields it wants, the route will be dropped. It overflies BWI where BOS, MHT, and PVD already connect and it's not shielded by being short haul like something like RDU-ATL. WN isn't a leader on either side, and BOS doesn't need to connect in ATL to reach places, nor does ATL need to fly to BOS to connect there. B6 might fly the route too siphoning off customers. If it's not sustained, it'll create a domino effect, as ATL will no longer have access to every major domestic market (like MDW does, and BNA and STL does on the East), and WN will think that LGA and DCA slots can be optimized while ATL's focus is changed.

I think PHL-ATL on WN will be interesting as well against US and DL. There will be no EWR-ATL so it'd pull some O&D from Central/Northern NJ maybe, but besides O&D, I think WN will use it like FL did with a lot of connections via ATL. e.g. PHL-ATL-HOU/DAL/SAT/AUS/JAX/RDU/MSY

Could WN consider TTN now that F9 is establishing it, like moving some PHL flights to TTN, e.g. TTN-ATL as an exclusive route, with no direct US or DL competition? I know it's unlikely but it would be cool for pax in the area.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: JBAirwaysFan
Posted 2012-12-01 06:56:37 and read 5690 times.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 15):
I don't think WN will hand over LGA-ATL completey over to DL. I dont believe that for a second.

I agree. Despite Delta's hourly service mostly on 757s, it is a lucrative market that has done well for both DL and FL. They're not going to drop this anytime soon.

When FL was usable for me during their short reign at DAB, I found connecting with them through ATL much easier than DL since you would never have to run clear across the airport to make a connection. They were confined to half of C and a portion of D which allowed for tighter connection times than DL. It will be a shame to see this dismantled.

As for ATL being over-rated, why shouldn't it be? It is one of the busiest airports in the country with some of the largest connecting volume as well. Why wouldn't you want extra stuff added on to make you connection more pleasant? It's more revenue for the airport, and more pleasant for the traveler. Not to mention if you get stuck in ATL you need something to do.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-12-01 07:36:41 and read 5592 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 66):
I think BOS-ATL will be a good test for WN. If WN doesn't achieve yields it wants, the route will be dropped. It overflies BWI where BOS
Quoting Flytravel (Reply 66):
WN isn't a leader on either side, and BOS doesn't need to connect in ATL to reach places, nor does ATL need to fly to BOS to connect there.

GOOD ANALYSIS

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-12-01 08:21:48 and read 5518 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 63):
I have not seen a single positive step from WN since the merger.

I have learned to ignore you because your are the most negative person towards WN I have ever had the pleasure not to meet.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 62):
Did i miss something? Why did WN "need" FL for that?

They didn't "need" that but it helped because it gave them experience and knowledge so they didn't have to learn from mistakes, some of which can be costly.

Quoting par13del (Reply 64):
Bottom line is that something in the near future will have to be done about their cost, that is the big open secret in the room.

And they know that and thats why next year is an important year. Next year they are pursuing aggressive cost control efforts in 2013 w/ hope to cut $100 million from corporate overhead and will be introducing a new revenue management system. I also believe one of the major employee contracts (Flight Attendants I believe) are up and they know they have to ask for something from them.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 65):
What's the hold up on two actions that even the simplest airline can manage??? The hold up is this 1971 Res System.

That is by far the top thing hurting WN right now. They can not codeshare, fly international, have a higher class and do a lot more things because of this one Res System. The day that is replaced, there will be major celebrations at the HQ.

[Edited 2012-12-01 08:23:36]

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-12-01 10:22:53 and read 5349 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 63):
They can not codeshare, fly international, have a higher class and do a lot more things because of this one Res System. The day that is replaced, there will be major celebrations at the HQ.

Codeshare is possible (see TZ), and there's nothing stopping them from offering two class seating for Business Select, Business Select and A list, or first come first served now.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-12-01 10:26:46 and read 5341 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 64):
Codeshare is possible (see TZ)

Yes, its possible but look at AirTran and all they have to do to set it up on the old system. They weren't ready for a WestJet codeshare.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-12-01 11:12:04 and read 5280 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 65):
Yes, its possible but look at AirTran and all they have to do to set it up on the old system. They weren't ready for a WestJet codeshare.

Oh, I agree that the current res system is an impediment to codesharing. It's just not true that Southwest "cannot codeshare," as you asserted.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-12-01 11:35:59 and read 5237 times.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 55):
Even before that. When WN started shopping the 717, it was pretty clear that reducing ATL's operations was in the cards.

Don't forget that they were so desperate to drop the 717s that they are actually paying DL to take them off their hands. That speaks volumes to the state of WN.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2012-12-01 11:47:38 and read 5212 times.

Air Tran was doing pretty well in ATL all alone, It remains to be seen whether the WN/FL combination will do as well.
I'm not at all sure whether Atlanta is the best Hub in the USA But it IS the Best HUB that Delta could ever want and whether Delta builds a second as powerful or More powerful hub one thing is for sure.
Southwest needs to get on the BALL to build their ATL Hub since they Bought FL just to get it. It would make NO sense otherwise to Have done it if they had no intention of BUILDING the hub in the first place would it??

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-12-01 12:40:37 and read 5121 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 67):
That speaks volumes to the state of WN.

That doesn't say anything about the state of WN. It just shows the the current fleet business model of WN and how they intend to follow it.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: DTWLAX
Posted 2012-12-01 13:27:00 and read 5037 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
I agree. My point is that if WN carries (say) two thirds FL's former passengers at the end of the day but those are the better-yielding two thirds of FL's former passengers, I'm not so sure that leaves Delta in a better spot.

And who are some of those better yielding passengers? Those who flew first class on FL? Well they cannot fly first class anymore on WN.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-12-01 13:41:25 and read 5000 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 64):
Codeshare is possible (see TZ), and there's nothing stopping them from offering two class seating for Business Select, Business Select and A list, or first come first served now.

I wonder if a flexible seating option should be considering. Where the arm rests on the middle seat fold in to create a make shift "premium" row. Of course you still run into issues on modifying the boarding procedure to make sure only Biz Select and A Listers are in those seats.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 67):
Don't forget that they were so desperate to drop the 717s that they are actually paying DL to take them off their hands. That speaks volumes to the state of WN.

They are paying $100 mil to refurb them to DL's standards. End of the day that is probably lower in price than to keep them on hand and pay their lease rates and associated costs.

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 70):
And who are some of those better yielding passengers? Those who flew first class on FL? Well they cannot fly first class anymore on WN.

Yet they still can purchase Business Select fares, received several benefits, and get the first pick of any seat on the plane (that isn't occupied by thrus).

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: diverdave
Posted 2012-12-01 13:48:00 and read 4995 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
I agree. My point is that if WN carries (say) two thirds FL's former passengers at the end of the day but those are the better-yielding two thirds of FL's former passengers, I'm not so sure that leaves Delta in a better spot.

I can see an argument for ATL that WN will inherit the lower yield passengers who were flying on AirTran's low fares. And I can see a case that the higher yielding business passengers will prefer to keep the amenities they enjoyed on AirTran, and will move their business to Delta or another legacy carrier.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 50):
When I've sat down with business passengers (while traveling) many bring up the ease of being able to miss a trip and reapply the funds to another flight for a year - with no penalty. Those that travel on Y or K (Business Select) love being able to move around to another flight with no change fees if they need - regardless of the day in most cases.

When I travel for business, I don't worry about such things as the company pays for them. If the company changes my travel schedule, they pay the freight.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 59):
What the merger has revealed is that WN is not some nimble cutting edge airline, but an airline that neglected a good part of its infrastructure. Their labor costs are very high. I am aghast that they can't operate a 115 seat plane profitably but Delta can.

Well said.

David

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-12-01 14:04:17 and read 4964 times.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 68):
Air Tran was doing pretty well in ATL all alone,

Agreed, but the question is what future there was for FL in ATL. As early as 6 or 7 years go, we saw FL looking outside of ATL for much of its growth - first to the YX merger (which was a foolish idea from the start), and then to organic growth in MKE and BWI, not to mention the failed focus cities in MDW and DFW. What was left for FL to do ex-ATL? Keep in mind that FL's costs were low but on the way up, just like any maturing airline's (including WN).

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 71):
Of course you still run into issues on modifying the boarding procedure to make sure only Biz Select and A Listers are in those seats.

It would require additional f/a time, which might not be a good thing on a quick turn. But A Listers have a card and Biz Select already has a piece of paper to take on board the plane (the drink ticket, the larger piece of which is completely useless right now), so it would be doable.

It would seem to make the most sense on the 738s, since they have an extra f/a.

Quoting diverdave (Reply 72):
And I can see a case that the higher yielding business passengers will prefer to keep the amenities they enjoyed on AirTran, and will move their business to Delta or another legacy carrier.

Maybe, but lots of WN passengers buy full fare tickets. WN actually has a pretty good product for business passengers. They don't gouge you for full fare tickets, and I find that the network works better than a pure hub and spoke carrier; there tend to be a lot of choices, and it's possible to, for instance, avoid HOU in thunderstorm season and avoid DEN in blizzard season. (YMMV on this in particular; I live in a fairly large WN city, and I might feel differently if I lived in PBI or BDL). Moreover, I am assured that I will be treated like a human being by WN employees. That's not true on the legacies, even in premium cabins. Rapid Rewards is also a very strong program whose value has not been diluted like a lot of the legacy programs.

I don't know that many business passengers were flying FL just for the F cabin.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: infiniti329
Posted 2012-12-01 15:19:21 and read 4859 times.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 55):
Even before that. When WN started shopping the 717, it was pretty clear that reducing ATL's operations was in the cards.

If there wasn't a taker for the 717s, they would have remained with WN to replace the 733s and most 733s are usually out west, so they would have still disappeared for ATL none the less

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-01 16:13:44 and read 4751 times.

Quoting bos2laf (Reply 10):

I'm starting to wonder if WN is creating an opening for B6 in ATL.

I think they are, but B6 will have to start JFK and BOS soon if it is to happen.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
Yes, but they were flying ATL-LGB, not anything that "2012 B6" would fly.

Why I was thrilled to have the flight offered (I never ended up flying it though), it wasn't the best route to start out of ATL.

B6 might just have a window of opportunity here. A window that will close by 2015.


Lightsaber

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2012-12-01 16:33:48 and read 4727 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 67):
Don't forget that they were so desperate to drop the 717s that they are actually paying DL to take them off their hands.

It seems like you don't understand how leasing works. Leasing companies pay the money up front to supply the desired product to the customer. The customer then pays a premium per month for the service, and for not having to use their cash up front.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: aerorobnz
Posted 2012-12-01 17:07:10 and read 4707 times.

All airports have natural growth and attrition. They are a moving target which comes and goes with the economic tide. For WN to reduce frequency at ATL to use elsewhere and retire fleets is only natural. DL themselves have done the same to MSP and MEM after NW. I don't see the problem yet. IF they are cutting flights it is purely because they are loss making and the aircraft can be better utilised elsewhere.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: diverdave
Posted 2012-12-01 17:36:18 and read 4680 times.

Southwest is spending $100 million to prep the 717s for the sublease. Boeing is adding $40 million to that.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_07_20_2012_p01-01-478629.xml

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 76):

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-12-01 21:02:48 and read 4475 times.

Quoting diverdave (Reply 78):
Southwest is spending $100 million to prep the 717s for the sublease. Boeing is adding $40 million to that.

Thanks for the link! It also mentions...

"Southwest CFO Laura Wright added that Southwest expects a $200 million boost in annual pre-tax income from replacing the AirTran 717 service with 737s that accommodate 26 more seats at roughly the same trip cost."

"Southwest also says the sublease income it will get from Delta is “essentially a wash” with its ongoing rental expense for the aircraft."

While not a major profit from subleasing, they will see a rise in overall revenues by getting them out of the system. They will also get all of their money back being spent to get these aircraft ready. Better than sitting on a mismatch fleet that will increase costs on WN.

So where exactly is the negative here?

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: TrijetsRMissed
Posted 2012-12-01 22:39:37 and read 4358 times.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 74):

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 55):
Even before that. When WN started shopping the 717, it was pretty clear that reducing ATL's operations was in the cards.

If there wasn't a taker for the 717s, they would have remained with WN to replace the 733s and most 733s are usually out west, so they would have still disappeared for ATL none the less

So what? I don't disagree with your premise but I think it's independent and not inclusive. WN were shopping the 717, off and on, for 18 months. Most in the industry could correlate this strategy into an eventual "de-hubbing", regardless of where the 717s ended up.

Quoting diverdave (Reply 78):
Southwest is spending $100 million to prep the 717s for the sublease.

The actual amount for WN is closer to $130 million. This was confirmed in the more recent WSJ article.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 79):
While not a major profit from subleasing, they will see a rise in overall revenues by getting them out of the system. They will also get all of their money back being spent to get these aircraft ready. Better than sitting on a mismatch fleet that will increase costs on WN.

So where exactly is the negative here?

It's a win-win, no question. The plus side for WN put them in a vulnerable position, and gave DL all the leverage in the negotiations. That's why DL got a superb deal. They played hardball and won.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-12-01 22:41:13 and read 4365 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 79):
So where exactly is the negative here?

They have proven that they are a one trick pony... particularly with the incredible lack of ability to make international flying work.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2012-12-02 03:51:14 and read 4218 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 73):
They don't gouge you for full fare tickets, and I find that the network works better than a pure hub and spoke carrier

Not really. You shouldn't compare WN's "Y" fares with other carriers' "Y" fares. Much of the time, the highest one will pay on a carrier like UA is a "B" fare or an "H" fare, and that often compares favorably with WN's "Y" fare, which can often be around $1,000 roundtrip. Regarding network vs. hub-and-spoke, WN's schedule is not always optimal for business travelers, who often need to fly at specific times of day. If you're flying from OKC to CMH, for example, you might only have 2-3 connections a day when other carriers offer maybe 10-15 connections a day due to their hub-and-spoke systems. Markets like HOU-MDW or DAL-AUS, however, are a different story since they're flown nonstop.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-12-02 04:41:33 and read 4177 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 81):
They have proven that they are a one trick pony... particularly with the incredible lack of ability to make international flying work.

 

I guess we'll see what happens once Amadeus comes online and they transition the int'l flying from the FL side.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-12-02 06:46:34 and read 4057 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 79):
"Southwest CFO Laura Wright added that Southwest expects a $200 million boost in annual pre-tax income from replacing the AirTran 717 service with 737s that accommodate 26 more seats at roughly the same trip cost."

I am not aware that the block hour costs of a 717 and 737-300 or -700 are equal, unless WN has some excellent lease rates on the 737s. I doubt that FL had poor leases on the 717

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 68):
Air Tran was doing pretty well in ATL all alone

They were doing reasonably ok. I think the AirTran CEO was looking at DL improving their costs in ATL and becoming more aggressive. Also when DL went to reduced schedules on weekends and midweek, FL surprisingly saw NO traffic migrate to them, showing DL had extreme loyalty in ATL. FL has a good loyal following in ATL as well. I think that WN overpaid for FL. WN offered $16 per share at a time that FL was trading about $10, so a 66% premium. A premium that FL could never give their own shareholders.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: AVLAirlineFreq
Posted 2012-12-02 07:00:38 and read 4028 times.

Has anyone heard anything else about the possibility of DL and WN swapping gates in ATL, with DL picking up the C concourse FL/WN gates and WN the D concourse DL gates?

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: deltairlines
Posted 2012-12-02 08:34:15 and read 3905 times.

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 85):
Has anyone heard anything else about the possibility of DL and WN swapping gates in ATL, with DL picking up the C concourse FL/WN gates and WN the D concourse DL gates?

I have my doubts given the capital expenditures that each company has put into their concourses of late.

Not to mention, the thought of trying to dump the WN operation into the (extremely narrow) D concourse seems like a recipe for disaster - there's barely enough room for the RJ pax as it is.

Plus, once it's all said and done, WN should have about 20 gates on C South once they allow all gates to handle 737s. Given that the ATL operation will likely shrink to about 150-160 flights a day, and a respectable number of those will have to use F, and since WN will not be using a hub style operation in ATL like FL is using, and my thoughts are they'll stick to C and downsize the number of gates in D that they use.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-12-02 08:39:55 and read 3893 times.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 80):
The actual amount for WN is closer to $130 million. This was confirmed in the more recent WSJ article.

Do you have a source for this? I am not second guessing you, I just want to see what else the source says.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 81):
They have proven that they are a one trick pony... particularly with the incredible lack of ability to make international flying work.

They are making AirTran work international VERY well. Just because WN can't do international doesn't matter right now because they do it great at AirTran.

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 85):
Has anyone heard anything else about the possibility of DL and WN swapping gates in ATL, with DL picking up the C concourse FL/WN gates and WN the D concourse DL gates?

I heard the opposite which doesn't seem likely because why would DL give up gates in the nicer concourse.

But in the deal you explain, yes, it would consolidate WN to one concourse but it would put them into the smaller concourse. What do they want more, easy connections (which they are trying to move away from) or a nicer passenger experience. I think unless WN were to get all of C they won't make a deal. AirTran operated fine in the 2 concourses, WN can too.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-12-02 09:41:17 and read 3794 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 82):
. Much of the time, the highest one will pay on a carrier like UA is a "B" fare or an "H" fare, and that often compares favorably with WN's "Y" fare, which can often be around $1,000 roundtrip.

It's unusual for a UA B or H fare to compare favorably with WN unless UA is actively matching WN. I flew BNA-MSY and then BTR-IAH-BNA a couple of months ago. The UA B fare on BTR-IAH-MSY was more than twice what I paid for Business Select on the way down. And remember that B and H are capacity controlled. I just bought a $1,500 Y ticket to CRW on UA. $1,500 will get me anywhere in WN's system in Business Select.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 82):
Regarding network vs. hub-and-spoke, WN's schedule is not always optimal for business travelers, who often need to fly at specific times of day.

Oh, I agree. But once you are outside of the huge fortress hubs, it's rare to find a single carrier that always has the best schedule, and in decent-sized WN cities, the carrier with the best schedule is as likely to be WN as anyone else. Your example of OKC-CMH is interesting because, though both OKC and CMH are smaller than the cities I was thinking of, WN can get you from OKC to CMH earlier in the morning than any of the legacies, and WN's late flight works really well too. So even in cities with less frequency, the WN schedules can work very well.

I also note that you did not address my points about employee attitudes or Rapid Rewards. To me, those are the two least debatable advantages of WN.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-12-02 10:31:45 and read 3714 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 83):
I guess we'll see what happens once Amadeus comes online and they transition the int'l flying from the FL side.

We sure will! ....in 2015.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2012-12-02 11:26:19 and read 3628 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 59):
I am aghast that they can't operate a 115 seat plane profitably but Delta can.

I don't think that's the issue. WN has stated that the 717 has about the same trip costs as a 733, with fewer seats and less range. Plus it would reduce system-wide commonality. If that's all true, it's a easy decision to shed the 717s and retain more 733s instead. WN/FL knows what the 717 can do. DL doesn't. I'm not so sure DL can operate the 717 profitably either.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 67):
That speaks volumes to the state of WN.

It speaks to how the all-737 model still works for them, and changing that for a few 717s isn't worth it.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-12-02 12:00:39 and read 3580 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 90):
WN has stated that the 717 has about the same trip costs as a 733,

How is that? The 717 uses less fuel and weighs less. Kevin Healy told me once when I asked them how they compete with WN at BWI, that that had equal CASM on their 717 to WN's 737s which means that the trip costs were at least 10-15% less. Of course WN costs will increase the costs of the 717 but it still burns less fuel, less MX, less landing fees.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2012-12-02 13:11:31 and read 3467 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 88):
I just bought a $1,500 Y ticket to CRW on UA.

   Where are you flying from? I can't imagine paying $1,500 for a Y ticket unless it was international! Do you have elite status with UA, or was their $1,500 fare really the cheapest option?

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2012-12-02 13:17:11 and read 3464 times.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 92):
Where are you flying from?
BNA, and I needed a refundable ticket. US was about the same. AA was significantly more and only worked in one direction. DL was maybe $100 less but not with the times I needed.

[Edited 2012-12-02 13:31:17]

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: bos2laf
Posted 2012-12-02 13:23:38 and read 3450 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 56):
I do think B6 will end up with a very small ATL station. (2-3x JFK/BOS maybe something in FL....but i think MCO/TPA/FLL would all end up burning money)
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 59):
I do think that B6 could have an opportunity with ATL-MCO. There are connections beyond MCO that WN doesn't compete on where B6 could be a price leader.

I don't know that we'd even see JFK flights if B6 launched ATL. You're talking about two DL mega-hubs on both ends of the route. DL may have a large operation in BOS, but B6 has an extremely loyal following in BOS, and they also have more business traffic in BOS than they do in JFK. NYC for B6 is more leisure traffic than business. If B6 wanted business traffic in NYC, they would have put their LGA slots to better use than Florida.

If I had to make my own predictions on what a B6 ATL station would look like, I'd say 3x E190s to BOS, and 2x to MCO with the goal of feeding connecting traffic to Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, and Central America. There's more money to be made on those connectors than the bargain-hunting family going to see Mickey Mouse. *Maybe* a FLL flight to offer connections to LAX and SFO without having to fly up to BOS.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-12-02 14:26:41 and read 3372 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 91):
How is that?

I don't know all the how etc... but I can confirm WN did say that. I would like to point out that something Kevin Healy said (which must have been at least 2 years ago) doesn't really matter because every aircraft ages differently.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-12-02 15:21:26 and read 3293 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 89):
We sure will! ....in 2015.

Keep thinking that.  

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-12-02 17:08:05 and read 3156 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 59):
Moving ATL flights to more MDW, STL or if the perimeter rule allows HOU or DEN would provide more system profitability for WN. WN route planning would be crazy not to look at options for DCA slots other than ATL.

I believe a few of the ATL flights are Air21 so they will have to serve ATL. They also already serve DCA-STL and DEN is out of perimeter.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2012-12-03 06:46:26 and read 2841 times.

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 86):

I really wouldn't doubt that because if Delta want's that? More than likely they'll get it. Consolidating operations on D concourse would be a wise move I've had tome to see the C comcourse gates, all they did could be moved overnight
WN didn't do much that wasn't already there except upgrade it Delta has done more at other airports and they should REALLY do more at ATL As a matter of fact United and CAL should merge operations at ATL on to the D Concourase North and get off the T concourse altogether

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-12-03 09:01:49 and read 2668 times.

Quoting SYfan100 (Reply 52):
Southwest is really rolling the dice with moving into Atlanta because of the cost for operating.

Well, the cost is increasing even more because they are now really under-utilizing their assets there. I expect they will return or sell gates to DL soon. As for their costs...they don't care any more. SFO/BOS/LGA/DCA/PHL...the list goes on. The days of WN not flying to high cost airports are 10 years in the rearview mirror.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 60):
I think BOS-ATL will be a good test for WN.

I agree. I think, however, the other factor is B6. They know if they exit that B6 will enter. I'm not sure they want that too much. They could stay just to block it. OTOH, I think B6 will force the issue by entering soon.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 63):
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 65):
What's the hold up on two actions that even the simplest airline can manage??? The hold up is this 1971 Res System.

That is by far the top thing hurting WN right now. They can not codeshare, fly international, have a higher class and do a lot more things because of this one Res System.

You forget bag fees. I think they can handle a first class, however.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 64):
Codeshare is possible (see TZ),
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 65):
Yes, its possible but look at AirTran and all they have to do to set it up on the old system.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 66):
Oh, I agree that the current res system is an impediment to codesharing. It's just not true that Southwest "cannot codeshare," as you asserted.

I think the most accurate thing to say is that they cannot handle a mass code share. The TZ arrangement was small scale and there were agents physically assigned to typing linking information into PNRs to link records. That's not going to be possible in a code share of this scale. It was probably not cost effective before either, but now I don't think it would even be physically possible given the volume of a full code share. I'm sure they would have been able to code share CUN/SJD/MEX, but they ran into another problem which is that WN RES cannot handle int'l taxes either.

BTW, all this stuff about "learning how to do int'l" by buying FL is a total crock of %^#^. They know and have known exactly what they need to do for international. They just haven't committed to a solution to their issues. FL does nothing other than force the issue.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 97):
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 59):
Moving ATL flights to more MDW, STL or if the perimeter rule allows HOU or DEN would provide more system profitability for WN. WN route planning would be crazy not to look at options for DCA slots other than ATL.

I believe a few of the ATL flights are Air21 so they will have to serve ATL. They also already serve DCA-STL and DEN is out of perimeter.

I'd be surprised if any of the DCA-ATL slots are Air21. I don't think ATL would qualify as a destination under the rules that were used to hand out AIR-21 slots. I believe the market was too large and had existing LCC service and was thus ineligible. Correct me with a link if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. CAK-LGA might have an AIR-21 slot. DCA to one of the secondary Florida cities seems like it had an AIR21 slot, but I'm not sure if they returned it.

Anyway, if they drop ATL-LGA/DCA completely, IMHO it will be much later and at the point that they completely throw in the towel on ATL being any more than they are in, for example, BOS. I don't think that is the plan at all. It may be the outcome, however. I think they really had high hopes for ATL, but it is all crumbling.

The disposal of the 717s was a big deal for a lot of reasons. Coupled with the 735 retirements and WN adding a row of seats, it means much larger aircraft size. US made the same mistake in the 90s. They had half their fleet with 100-120 seaters and got rid of all of them in favor of 130-150 seaters. Reality is that you lose a lot of markets in that trade that don't need the bigger aircraft. The other thing is that dumping those planes means WN is going to, at best, not grow...but probably shrink. The acquired part of a company is always the part that gets hit hardest. Those are all "other people's decisions" and easier to reverse than admitting your own mistakes...like CRP or JAN. It also means a lot of gates in ATL that will no longer fit their planes. That's going to lead to WN letting go of gates. Guaranteed...

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2012-12-03 09:16:35 and read 2647 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 99):
BTW, all this stuff about "learning how to do int'l" by buying FL is a total crock of %^#^. They know and have known exactly what they need to do for international. They just haven't committed to a solution to their issues. FL does nothing other than force the issue.

I agree. WN is one of the best run and one of the largest carriers in the US. And I'm no airline CEO, but really, how hard is it to send a 737 from TPA-SJU (I know that's not international but it's in the same boat)? Or SFO-YVR? It's basically just another route, with a couple extra things built in. I don't see what "needs to be learned."

It's not like they have a bunch of 767s and are flying JFK-Europe. A lot of these international flights might as well be domestic. Even the category my dad is in, the domestic 767/757 category for Delta, goes internationally (Mexico and the Caribbean.)

And I've heard there is a problem with WN's reservation system (prevents codesharing, and it may be related to the international problem, I forgot.) I still don't buy the fact that WN just decides to run their business un-optimally instead of getting a new system or paying someone to modify their existing system. Again, no expert, but they are a huge, successful company, I don't see how some of these things are out of their reach and they needed to buy AirTran to figure them out

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-12-03 11:04:17 and read 2536 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 99):
You forget bag fees. I think they can handle a first class, however.

If WN really wanted to charge bag fees they could. The res system is more than capable of billing fees without issue. However, bag fees are not in the future so it is pointless.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 100):
And I've heard there is a problem with WN's reservation system (prevents codesharing, and it may be related to the international problem, I forgot.) I still don't buy the fact that WN just decides to run their business un-optimally instead of getting a new system or paying someone to modify their existing system. Again, no expert, but they are a huge, successful company, I don't see how some of these things are out of their reach and they needed to buy AirTran to figure them out

Amadeus will be up and going before much longer, so the int'l side of the house will taken care of. I would imagine once it is proven then the rest of the network will be moved over.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: diverdave
Posted 2012-12-03 17:03:26 and read 2310 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 101):
If WN really wanted to charge bag fees they could. The res system is more than capable of billing fees without issue. However, bag fees are not in the future so it is pointless.

Lest we forget, Southwest already has bag fees. The fees apply to checked bags in excess of two per passenger, overweight, or oversize.

http://www.southwest.com/html/custom...vice/baggage/checked-bags-pol.html

David

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2012-12-03 17:18:58 and read 2269 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 99):
BTW, all this stuff about "learning how to do int'l" by buying FL is a total crock of %^#^. They know and have known exactly what they need to do for international. They just haven't committed to a solution to their issues. FL does nothing other than force the issue.

but its not. The existing procedures, and employees with the required skills are very valueble to "starting" a program of your own. Lots of money to be saved if you can photocopy someone else's approved procedures and have the staff to correctly implement it.

Its not the only reason that WN bought FL, but you can be SURE that it was a factor in the decision.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: BOStonsox
Posted 2012-12-03 20:14:15 and read 2085 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 99):
I think BOS-ATL will be a good test for WN.
I agree. I think, however, the other factor is B6. They know if they exit that B6 will enter. I'm not sure they want that too much. They could stay just to block it. OTOH, I think B6 will force the issue by entering soon.

ATL is the biggest destination not served by B6 from BOS. It is over 200 PDEW larger than BOS-DEN, which has a UA hub and WN focus city on one end, and a B6 hub on the other. I think B6 has a decent shot of making it work. JFK, MCO, and FLL will be a bit tougher, though.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-12-03 20:20:04 and read 2077 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 101):
If WN really wanted to charge bag fees they could.

No thye cant. It is too late. If they were to reverse course and flip flop on "Bags Fly Free" they will join New Coke in the annals of Corporate Flops.

Quoting enilria (Reply 99):
I'd be surprised if any of the DCA-ATL slots are Air21. I don't think ATL would qualify as a destination under the rules that were used to hand out AIR-21 slots.

I think AirTran got them for LCC entry. Before FL, there was no LCC in ATL-DCA. J7 flew to IAD, never DCA

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-12-03 20:31:53 and read 2060 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 105):
No thye cant. It is too late. If they were to reverse course and flip flop on "Bags Fly Free" they will join New Coke in the annals of Corporate Flops.

The only thing I could think of is if they quietly (and people will make sure it isn't quiet) add a second bag fee that is cheaper then other airlines and have the first bag free. Give the elites and Business Select 2 free bags.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 105):
I think AirTran got them for LCC entry. Before FL, there was no LCC in ATL-DCA. J7 flew to IAD, never DCA

That is correct. Just to summarize the FL/WN Slots, at least one pair if not 2 or 3 ATL are Air21 and non transferable and the RSW slots are Air21 with the option to convert to FLL or PBI.

Topic: RE: WN Continues Cutting ATL, DL Must Be Thrilled
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2012-12-04 15:33:34 and read 1759 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 105):
No thye cant. It is too late. If they were to reverse course and flip flop on "Bags Fly Free" they will join New Coke in the annals of Corporate Flops.

Thanks for taking my post out of context. The system allows them to charge bags fees if they want, which is what I was getting to. I agree the bags fly free campaign won't go anywhere and will continue.


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