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Topic: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2012-11-29 08:21:00 and read 8236 times.

As it is already past midnight in MNL, it is today that PR will begin 3 weekly B77W service non-stop to YYZ. The return flight is routed via YVR.

PR118 becomes the 7th longest flight in the world, at 13230 km, placing just behind QF8, DFW-BNE. Pretty impressive for an airline that doesn't even serve Europe anymore.

Also, based on PR's timetables, certain days in January are already planned with a stop-over in YVR both ways. Is that due to an aircraft sub?

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: 9w748capt
Posted 2012-11-29 08:22:43 and read 8235 times.

Wow, good luck to them. Can't be easy to make a profit on these types of routes nowadays. And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2012-11-29 08:29:51 and read 8203 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Most likely. If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

As you said, good luck to them !

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2012-11-29 08:30:47 and read 8188 times.

Wow, thats a long one.

They certainly wont have a problem filling the plane. The market is massive.

That said I would be mystified if they made a dime on a route like that.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-11-29 08:36:27 and read 8160 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
Wow, good luck to them. Can't be easy to make a profit on these types of routes nowadays. And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Why would you say that? Can't there be enough people flying between MNL and YYZ in the front to justify the flight? Just because they are coming from the Philippians, doesn't mean they can't afford the airfare. I have traveled the world and found most places have a large population of people who have the means to afford to travel in the front of the airplane.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-29 08:59:59 and read 8073 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):
I have traveled the world and found most places have a large population of people who have the means to afford to travel in the front of the airplane.

Yes, if the fares are cheap. Somehow I doubt that in an EXTREMELY price-sensitive market like the Philippines, a large portion of the traveling public are willing to pay higher fares to cover the costs of operating a flight such as this one.

Air India is a perfect example of this: their long-haul routes to the US boost high load factors, but these routes alone (ORD, JFK and EWR) account for FORTY PERCENT of its annual losses. AI almost always undercuts the competition on US-India amid all three classes of services.

PR suffers from other competitive disadvantages other than price-elastic consumers: lack of participation in a major global alliance, inefficient/high cost base, and small domestic operation (largely ceded to Cebu over the years) to feed its international trunk routes.

Honestly, I see this entirely as a pre-emptive move against 5J, which is gearing up to launch long-haul services, and Canada is definitely high on their list for initial routes. PR can outmaneuver them with market entrenchment, brand-awareness, and range capability on the 777-300ER, which Cebu cannot do without 1-stop on the A330.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: flyingdoc787
Posted 2012-11-29 10:51:03 and read 7850 times.

Quote:
If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

PAL doesn't fly to Europe because they are not allowed to by the civil aviation authorities. IF they could, they would, and with the proper timings and marketing, they can make it work!

As for the YYZ route - I agree that this is probably a "muscle flexing" move against 5J. In any case, good to see PAL expanding to a new destination.

Now if only the Philippines can be allowed to introduce new flights into the USA (they're still having problems being certified), I would love to see them back in New York, and perhaps Chicago. Will San Diego ever happen?

On a sad note, they are dropping LAS early next year.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-29 13:02:41 and read 7633 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):
Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
Wow, good luck to them. Can't be easy to make a profit on these types of routes nowadays. And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Why would you say that? Can't there be enough people flying between MNL and YYZ in the front to justify the flight? Just because they are coming from the Philippines, doesn't mean they can't afford the airfare. I have traveled the world and found most places have a large population of people who have the means to afford to travel in the front of the airplane.

There's definitely much less high-yield traffic to/from the Philippines than most other Asian markets. That's always been a problem for PR. And you can't judge what fares are being paid by looking at loads in the premium classes. They may be upgrades from overbooked Y class passengers, non-rev staff, frequent flyer redemptions etc. PR is also less likely to attract premium class traffic due to not being an alliance member.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-29 13:05:02 and read 7623 times.

Quoting flyingdoc787 (Reply 6):
Quote:
If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

PAL doesn't fly to Europe because they are not allowed to by the civil aviation authorities. IF they could, they would, and with the proper timings and marketing, they can make it work!

PR had dropped their Europe routes long before carriers based in the Philippines were added to the EU's banned list. Their Europe routes were very unprofitable when they were last operated.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: MHG
Posted 2012-11-29 13:07:28 and read 7613 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

As flyingdoc787 already mentioned PAL is not allowed to fly into european airspace (unless it´s a "presidential" flight)
Actually all philippine carriers are on the EU black list - so the ban is not limited to PAL btw.

Quoting flyingdoc787 (Reply 6):
Now if only the Philippines can be allowed to introduce new flights into the USA (they're still having problems being certified), I would love to see them back in New York, and perhaps Chicago. Will San Diego ever happen?

I don´t see any changes with the U.S. routes because the FAA is unlikely to restore Cat I status anytime soon.
Which means that all OPS to the U.S. are still "frozen" (no additional routes and no equipment changes permitted).

Although it sounds exciting that PR starts a non-stop MNL-YYZ this seems more like a desperate decision ...
PR had ordered B777´s and Boeing insists that PR takes them all - but PR desperately searches for routes they can use them for under the current restrictions for philippine carriers.
The B 777 were intended mainly for expansion on the U.S. market but PAL is not allowed to replace the B 744 and the A340 due to FAA cat II.
Since Canada does not fall under FAA jurisdiction there´s are at least a few possible (viable???) destinations left for PR´s B777 - go figure ...

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2012-11-29 13:16:32 and read 7562 times.

Someone mentioned that the plane would be light up-front which wouldn't necessarily be the case if PR marketed themselves well in N. America for J-class service to MNL. There's a lot of J-class traffic from N. America to MNL but PR's lack of Alliance hurts them big time to have a piece of that pie. I fly to MNL a lot for work...or rather I used to but I wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole even though they were aways much cheaper.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: iflypal
Posted 2012-11-29 18:37:27 and read 7259 times.

Looks to me like Philippine Airlines is going to Toronto daily effective March 10

From Timetable posted on philippineairlines.com

For 10 to 30 Mar 2013 For 10 to 30 Mar 2013

PR 116 via Vancouver Mo-Tu-Th-Sa 14:30 20:30 PR 119 We-Fr-Su 20:00 05:10 +2
PR 118 We-Fr-Su 15:00 18:00 PR 117 Mo-Tu-Th-Sa 22:30 07:40 +2

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: as739x
Posted 2012-11-29 18:42:54 and read 7244 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):
Why would you say that?

Low yields!!

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: ordjoe
Posted 2012-11-30 07:45:03 and read 6158 times.

here is a pretty dam good indication of why the Philipinos do not really pay much to fly up front, go to many of the asian airlines that offer a good F or J such as SQ or CX, price out HKG, SIN-LAX and MNL-LAX for F or J, odds are very likely there will be a significant difference in price (I believe Siri lanka this phenomenon occurs, priced columbo to SYD and could get F tickets for 4K equivilant distance flights are easily 3x that in F.
My thoughts is this will not last long or they will keep it for prestige. Will there be much of a weight penalty.

The other thing to consider is that even if you fill the J cabin with 2K fares, that is still going at a loss.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2012-11-30 09:03:04 and read 5951 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 10):

Someone mentioned that the plane would be light up-front which wouldn't necessarily be the case if PR marketed themselves well in N. America for J-class service to MNL. There's a lot of J-class traffic from N. America to MNL but PR's lack of Alliance hurts them big time to have a piece of that pie. I fly to MNL a lot for work...or rather I used to but I wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole even though they were aways much cheaper.

If you look at the GCM, the routing from most US city pairs to MNL routes RIGHT over NRT.

On my NH flights from NRT to MNL last month, the plane was basically packed full of connecting traffic onto UA, NH and AC flights to and from NRT to Canada and the US. I was in J on several of those sectors and the fares are very competitive on Star, although my NRT trsfr experience was pretty terrible, I must say.

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 13):
My thoughts is this will not last long or they will keep it for prestige. Will there be much of a weight penalty.

I'd suspect moreso the latter.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: MD11Engineer
Posted 2012-11-30 09:36:41 and read 5908 times.

Quoting MHG (Reply 9):
As flyingdoc787 already mentioned PAL is not allowed to fly into european airspace (unless it´s a "presidential" flight)
Actually all philippine carriers are on the EU black list - so the ban is not limited to PAL btw.

Actually the three big carriers (Philippine Airways, Cebu Pacific and Airphil Express) are not directly targeted by EASA, but they are being banned to create pressure on the Philippine aviation authority to get their act together.
The problem is the massive corruption within the authority.
I just returned from a stay in the Philippines a few days ago. While I was there I read several articles in reputable local newspapers (Daily Inquirer, Manila Bulletin) about unregistered aircraft (or aircraft with fake registration numbers) flying in the Philippines while being completely ignored by the authorities (if the owner of the plane does not bother to get it registered, you can bet that he won´t bother about proper maintenance or insurance either). Another item was a crash of a light twin, in which a senator got killed. It turned out that the aircraft was illegally maintained, using bogus parts and the maintenance facility was not approved for the type of maintenance carried out (which caused one engine to fail) and that the pilot, though "certified flight instructor" and owner of a flying school, was not capable of carrying out a single engine landing (he went below minimum single engine speed and crashed the plane, among other mistakes, like not returning to his airport of origin, CEB, which has the longest and widest runway in the region and capable rescue forces, instead he continued to the provincial airfield of Naga). The authority came under fire because one of their inspectors signed the airworthiness release for the aircraft, even though the maintenance was dodgy.
I agree that most of these acts involve general aviation aircraft and that the big Filipino airlines keep a high standard, at least I never felt unsafe on their aicraft and from what I could see, their maintenance and operations seemed to be ok.

Jan

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: airontario
Posted 2012-11-30 09:53:45 and read 5869 times.

Will they be operating in to terminal 3 at YYZ?

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2012-11-30 10:32:53 and read 5825 times.

Quoting airontario (Reply 16):
Will they be operating in to terminal 3 at YYZ?

yes.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: flightsimboy
Posted 2012-11-30 12:27:24 and read 5713 times.

She's on her way but the weather is just terrible. Was so excited to go out and see it arrive...not with the weather like today!! (It was even worse the day the ET 787 made it's inaugural flight)

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: brilondon
Posted 2012-11-30 13:33:02 and read 5626 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

Most likely. If they cant make MNL-Europe work, which is only 10000-10500km, then surely the added distance of YYZ is going to be a challenge.

As you said, good luck to them !

Thenoflyzone
Quoting as739x (Reply 12):
Low yields!

Good luck to them, I hope that it works. Although, there are probably more people living in North America of Philippine dissent than in Europe being they are a former US colony.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: flightsimboy
Posted 2012-11-30 13:36:17 and read 5621 times.

16 hours 42 minutes   

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8347/8233575066_ddb4845c9f_b.jpg

I had no idea the 77W could do that....the 772LR yes!!

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-30 14:08:48 and read 5579 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 19):
Good luck to them, I hope that it works. Although, there are probably more people living in North America of Philippine descent than in Europe being they are a former US colony.

Not sure about the US but the Philippines has recently been the largest source of immigrants to Canada. Can't find 2011 data but in 2010 it was #1. Following Canadian government data for the year 2010. Almost exactly 100 immigrants every day from the Philippines.


Rank Country Number Percentage
1 Philippines 36,578 13.0%
2 India 30,252 10.8%
3 People’s Republic of China 30,197 10.8%
4 United Kingdom 9,499 3.4%
5 United States of America 9,243 3.3%
6 France 6,934 2.5%
7 Iran 6,815 2.4%
8 United Arab Emirates 6,796 2.4%
9 Morocco 5,946 2.1%
10 Republic of Korea 5,539 2.0%
Total Top 10 147,799 52.7%
All Other Source Countries 132,882 47.3%
TOTAL 280,681 100.0%
Source: Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Facts and Figures 2010.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: polaris
Posted 2012-11-30 14:25:40 and read 5556 times.

The first flight has arrived in Toronto.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2012-11-30 16:41:15 and read 5396 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 14):
On my NH flights from NRT to MNL last month, the plane was basically packed full of connecting traffic onto UA, NH and AC flights to and from NRT to Canada and the US. I was in J on several of those sectors and the fares are very competitive on Star, although my NRT trsfr experience was pretty terrible, I must say.

NRT transfers are terrible, I've had a bad experience the 4-5 times I've done it. When I used to fly SFO-MNL quite a bit for business, I preferred OZ via ICN because I am a Star Alliance buff but you're right, prices were pretty competitive. I flew SQ too a couple of times but that adds quite some time to the trip since I mostly did SFO-ICN-SIN-MNL. I've even tried CX, JL and DL on J and although CX was good, nothing beats OZ o Star Alliance unless willing to spend the extra time on the more expensive SQ. I flew PAL once MNL-SFO non-stop on F and never again, I'll take the lay-over any day.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2012-11-30 17:15:55 and read 5341 times.

Quoting MHG (Reply 9):
I don´t see any changes with the U.S. routes because the FAA is unlikely to restore Cat I status anytime soon

I can't believe the Canadian regulators are a push over but they must have very good reasons to see it different than those in the USA.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2012-11-30 17:26:10 and read 5578 times.

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 20):
16 hours 42 minutes

Generally a bit more than a typical EK DXB-LAX flight. If the 8383sm ( 7285nm) is correct the average cruise was about 446k rather slow for an eastbound flight. This might be the longest ( in time) flight for a 77W.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2012-11-30 19:18:50 and read 5507 times.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 1):
Wow, good luck to them. Can't be easy to make a profit on these types of routes nowadays. And I'm assuming PR's 77W is light up front and heavy in Y to fit the demographic?

42 J/328 Y. Not that heavy in the back, but if I'm not mistaken PR is looking onto connecting traffic onto points in the eastern United States as well to fill up the planes.

Quoting flyingdoc787 (Reply 6):
On a sad note, they are dropping LAS early next year.

Not completely: they're looking at codeshares to replace PR-operated YVR-LAS.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
Another item was a crash of a light twin, in which a senator got killed

Not a senator: he was the Secretary of the Interior.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 19):
Although, there are probably more people living in North America of Philippine dissent than in Europe being they are a former US colony.

There are more Filipinos overall in western North America, but half of all Filipinos in Canada live in the east. Add onto that the large Filipino population of New York City (which this flight is supposedly targeting in the absence of direct MNL-NYC service due to Cat II), as well as the other communities in places like Montréal, Washington D.C. and Boston, and you'll get a pretty large, relatively affluent market to tap.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 23):
I flew PAL once MNL-SFO non-stop on F and never again, I'll take the lay-over any day.

When was this? PAL has been improving on trans-Pacific flights, as far as I've heard. Since you mentioned flying in F, I presume this was before 2009, when the 744s were all refurbished with nose-to-tail AVOD. I suggest giving them a try again.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: JAGflyer
Posted 2012-12-01 00:32:43 and read 5447 times.

I was discussing the new start up with a Phillipino friend of mine. He says that the cost to fly PR is generally much higher (non-stop/direct) than say going via ICN (KE), HKG (CX), or NRT (AC). Fares for MNL-MNL-MNL traffic.

[Edited 2012-12-01 00:39:27]

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: United Airline
Posted 2012-12-01 01:57:17 and read 5337 times.

Why can't they fly to Europe? What happened?

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: kevin
Posted 2012-12-01 03:52:58 and read 5279 times.

PR will operate MNL-YVR-YYZ. Do they have 5th freedom rights on the YVR-YYZ sector?

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2012-12-01 03:53:44 and read 5279 times.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 28):
Why can't they fly to Europe? What happened?

See reply 15. Pretty much sums it up.

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 20):
16 hours 42 minutes

That time is wrong. Flightaware departed the flight 1h30 ahead of schedule for some reason. The flight is 15h 00 minutes based on official timetables. The inaugural flew 15h15 minutes.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 25):
Generally a bit more than a typical EK DXB-LAX flight. If the 8383sm ( 7285nm) is correct the average cruise was about 446k rather slow for an eastbound flight. This might be the longest ( in time) flight for a 77W.

PR118 has a block time of 15h00. As i mentioned, flightaware, for some unknown reason, departed the flight 1h30 minutes ahead of schedule. First flight was 15h15 minutes long. EK DXB-LAX is longer, both by distance and flight time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_flights#Longest_flights

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-12-01 03:55:40]

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2012-12-01 03:57:38 and read 5277 times.

Quoting kevin (Reply 29):
PR will operate MNL-YVR-YYZ. Do they have 5th freedom rights on the YVR-YYZ sector?

First of all, that is not 5th freedom, but rather 8th freedom, and NO.

Outside of the EU (where EU airlines from country A have the rights for local flights within country B), very few airlines in the world are granted 8th freedom rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-12-01 04:15:42]

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2012-12-01 04:59:44 and read 5205 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 30):
That time is wrong. Flightaware departed the flight 1h30 ahead of schedule for some reason. The flight is 15h 00 minutes based on official timetables. The inaugural flew 15h15 minutes

Thanks for spotting this error . This is better, average cruise of ~491k.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2012-12-01 08:05:26 and read 5072 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 26):
When was this? PAL has been improving on trans-Pacific flights, as far as I've heard. Since you mentioned flying in F, I presume this was before 2009, when the 744s were all refurbished with nose-to-tail AVOD. I suggest giving them a try again.

This was back in 07 on a 744. Cool thing about it was PacMan was on the same flight in F and I got to chat with him.. very cool guy. If they have a decent J, I'd fly them SFO-MNL, I didn't know they refurbished the 744s.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: MarcoPoloWorld
Posted 2012-12-01 18:19:13 and read 4824 times.

This 8th-freedom-less circle routing makes very little sense, but then again, so does alot of what the Philippine carriers are doing, and especially PR. Why dilute from a consistent daily nonstop to/from YVR as an excellent gateway for Canada in order to do this silly YYZ half-a$$ not-non-stop-both-ways, not-daily adventure?

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2012-12-01 20:13:09 and read 4682 times.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 34):

PR has no choice in the matter. They are limited by the number of landing rights Canada grants them. As for the westbound not being non-stop, again, they have no choice, as a fully loaded B77W would probably have difficulty doing that leg non-stop. Even EK have voiced concerns and want a bit more range on the 77W, specifically for routes like DXB-LAX.

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2012-12-02 04:33:13 and read 4458 times.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 33):
If they have a decent J, I'd fly them SFO-MNL, I didn't know they refurbished the 744s.

They did, and there's a virtual tour of the refurbished 744 on PAL's website.

http://www1.philippineairlines.com/f...hts/during/mabuhay-class-interior/

----

Anyway, some highlights of the inaugural flight from a blogger invited to fly on the inaugural flight!

http://outoftownblog.com/philippine-...lines-now-flies-to-toronto-canada/

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Norcal773
Posted 2012-12-02 11:03:58 and read 4280 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 36):

Ooh nice, way better than what their F used to look like. Now, if only they'd join an Alliance  

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2012-12-02 14:45:44 and read 4173 times.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 34):
Why dilute from a consistent daily nonstop to/from YVR as an excellent gateway for Canada in order to do this silly YYZ half-a$$ not-non-stop-both-ways, not-daily adventure?

MNL-YYZ will actually become daily starting next month: three times direct (eastbound at least; the return will still be via YVR) and four times as a tag-on from YVR. (Well, at least we now know where YVR-LAS went.)

http://airlineroute.net/2012/12/01/pr-yyz-jan13update2/

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-03 12:15:09 and read 3794 times.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 28):
Why can't they fly to Europe? What happened?
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 31):
Quoting kevin (Reply 29):PR will operate MNL-YVR-YYZ. Do they have 5th freedom rights on the YVR-YYZ sector?
First of all, that is not 5th freedom, but rather 8th freedom, and NO.

Outside of the EU (where EU airlines from country A have the rights for local flights within country B), very few airlines in the world are granted 8th freedom rights.

Also Australian carriers in New Zealand and vice versa.

There have been a few other excreptions in the past. Two or three carriers had rights (and may still have) to carry domestic passengers between GVA and ZRH on flights serving both points. I remember with Tunisair and TAP did it, and possibly one or two others.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 34):
This 8th-freedom-less circle routing makes very little sense, but then again, so does alot of what the Philippine carriers are doing, and especially PR. Why dilute from a consistent daily nonstop to/from YVR as an excellent gateway for Canada in order to do this silly YYZ half-a$$ not-non-stop-both-ways, not-daily adventure?

Keep in mind the Ontario region and YYZ in particular is the largest destination for immigrants from the Philippines (and virtually all other countries). It may make more economic sense for PR to operate the MNL-YYZ-YVR-MNL routing than paying another carrier a significant prorate to carry the passenger YVR-YYZ.

When CA and KE began service to YYZ, if memory correct they also operated via YVR, obviously without any traffic rights on the YVR-YYZ domestic sector.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: MarcoPoloWorld
Posted 2012-12-03 18:14:40 and read 3612 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 35):

PR has no choice in the matter. They are limited by the number of landing rights Canada grants them. As for the westbound not being non-stop, again, they have no choice, as a fully loaded B77W would probably have difficulty doing that leg non-stop. Even EK have voiced concerns and want a bit more range on the 77W, specifically for routes like DXB-LAX.

Thenoflyzone
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 38):

MNL-YYZ will actually become daily starting next month: three times direct (eastbound at least; the return will still be via YVR) and four times as a tag-on from YVR. (Well, at least we now know where YVR-LAS went.)

http://airlineroute.net/2012/12/01/p...ate2/

Ok. Thanks guys.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: qblue
Posted 2012-12-03 20:13:05 and read 3541 times.

So last night 2Dec there was two PR aircraft at YVR A340 and B777 what up with that. Just great to see love the colours

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Byrdluvs747
Posted 2012-12-03 22:38:41 and read 3450 times.

I know that PR isn't allowed to codeshare with AA in the US, but can they codeshare with LA via LAX for traffic to South America?

Also, Why did the JNB route fail?

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Akiestar
Posted 2012-12-04 00:43:03 and read 3386 times.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 42):
can they codeshare with LA via LAX for traffic to South America?

They could, but I was imagining that given all the expansion, they could open new markets in the process. I know PR intends to start Brazil service at some point in the future, and I wonder how they will achieve that if they won't do it direct. (I was also hoping they launch MEX at some point in the future.)

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 42):
Also, Why did the JNB route fail?

PR never served JNB: that's MH. The only African route PR ever served was CAI.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Byrdluvs747
Posted 2012-12-04 02:30:55 and read 3317 times.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 43):
PR never served JNB

I was asking based on the terminated routes listed in wikipedia.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 43):
I wonder how they will achieve that if they won't do it direct.

Ironically, to serve GIG/GRU effectively PR would most likely route via JNB rather than flying an extra 2000 miles trying to cross the pacific.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Devilfish
Posted 2012-12-04 12:48:07 and read 3122 times.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 44):
Ironically, to serve GIG/GRU effectively PR would most likely route via JNB rather than flying an extra 2000 miles trying to cross the pacific.

Sorry if a bit OT...but while MNL-JNB-GIG is indeed the shortest one-stop routing, MNL-JED-GIG may be more commercially viable if the new bilateral with Saudi Arabia, and that which could be agreed with Brazil would grant PR fifth freedom rights to tap the manning and OFW traffic there.....as opposed to a virtual tech stop at JNB.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=mnl-jed-gig&MS=wls&DU=nm

It would also give PR the flexibility to use its recently ordered HGW A333s on the route instead of the 77W...allowing for a more rational deployment of aircraft. More overflight permissions across Asia and Africa would be needed, though. I see PAL Express flying this route when the time comes.



[Edited 2012-12-04 13:22:51]

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Byrdluvs747
Posted 2012-12-04 18:51:24 and read 2961 times.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 45):
MNL-JED-GIG may be more commercially viable if the new bilateral with Saudi Arabia, and that which could be agreed with Brazil would grant PR fifth freedom rights to tap the manning and OFW traffic there.

How much value is there in JED-GIG, and what value would Brazil gain in allowing it? A deep codeshare/JV with LAN?

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Devilfish
Posted 2012-12-04 20:58:36 and read 2892 times.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 46):
How much value is there in JED-GIG

The value is in the first leg subsidizing the second...and what chump change merchantmen could bring in between JED-GIG/GRU.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 46):
and what value would Brazil gain in allowing it?

The same question one could ask of MNL-JNB-GIG/GRU.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-05 18:43:32 and read 2666 times.

Quoting qblue (Reply 41):
So last night 2Dec there was two PR aircraft at YVR A340 and B777 what up with that.

On Sunday, the schedule shows 2 PR flights YVR-MNL leaving 10 minutes apart, the A340 that operates LAS-YVR-MNL at 2330 and the 77W that operates YYZ-YVR-MNL at 2340.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2012-12-06 04:39:52 and read 2465 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 48):
the A340 that operates LAS-YVR-MNL at 2330 and the 77W that operates YYZ-YVR-MNL at 2340.

So the 77W, with a faster cruise speed, must surely be able to land before the A340 in MNL.

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: ytz
Posted 2012-12-06 15:33:14 and read 2277 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
it is today that PR will begin 3 weekly B77W service non-stop to YYZ.

I would think that the 77L would be much more appropriate for this route. Does PR have a cargo business at all? Seems to me, that they are only planning on taking bags and pax, looking at the 77W payload-range chart.

But I guess, the decision has more to do with them taking delivery of the aircraft and having their hand forced by regulatory decisions in the USA.

Seems to me that it might be a better idea would be to swap some of their 77Ws for AI's 77Ls, run them direct to YYZ and codeshare with AC/UA to feed the flight. Added bonus: AI gets a 77W that's configured to what they actually should have.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-06 19:36:53 and read 2132 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 49):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 48):
the A340 that operates LAS-YVR-MNL at 2330 and the 77W that operates YYZ-YVR-MNL at 2340.

So the 77W, with a faster cruise speed, must surely be able to land before the A340 in MNL.

Correct. Schedule block time 14:35 for the A343 and 14:15 for the 77W. Not a very significant difference on a 5,706 nm sector.

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: Devilfish
Posted 2012-12-06 20:56:42 and read 2090 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 50):
But I guess, the decision has more to do with them taking delivery of the aircraft and having their hand forced by regulatory decisions in the USA.

I would venture that PR like their 77Ws very much.....just not when they couldn't use those where they intended.

Quoting ytz (Reply 50):
Seems to me that it might be a better idea would be to swap some of their 77Ws for AI's 77Ls

Pardon me, but I don't think PR would deem it a good idea to exchange their new 77Ws for planes nobody else wanted.

Quoting ytz (Reply 50):
run them direct to YYZ and codeshare with AC/UA to feed the flight.

PR already fly direct to YYZ on alternate schedules but not on the return...and could also codeshare on the 77W.


Quoting ytz (Reply 50):
Added bonus: AI gets a 77W that's configured to what they actually should have.

Yeah...AI would get a bonus...PR the onus. Perhaps AI could get 5J to bite if the 77Ls were priced cheap enough?  

Topic: RE: PR Begins MNL-YYZ!
Username: ytz
Posted 2012-12-07 06:34:41 and read 1915 times.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 52):
I would venture that PR like their 77Ws very much.....just not when they couldn't use those where they intended.

That's the problem isn't it.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 52):
Pardon me, but I don't think PR would deem it a good idea to exchange their new 77Ws for planes nobody else wanted.

The suggestion was half-made in jest. But really, PR would be better off with 77Ls for this route. And AI would be better off with more 77Ws for their routes. PR could probably support more premium traffic. AI can't support their premium heavy configurations. Good conditions for a trade.

As for nobody wanting them, it was at the price that AI was insisting on. Were it to be some kind of swap (with cash) who knows?

In any event, it's not a likely outcome. Just outside the box thinking.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 52):
PR already fly direct to YYZ on alternate schedules but not on the return...and could also codeshare on the 77W.

With what payload. Look at the 77W range-payload chart. I can't see how they are flying to direct to YYZ with much more than the passenger's bag and a sack of lettermail. Guess they don't really have a cargo business. And if that's true then they aren't going to be making much on this route.

Going via YVR is a terrible workaround. Substantially longer routing makes for higher fuel burn and worse service. Who wants to be the pax that flew on the wrong day of the week and took hours more to get there?

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 52):
Yeah...AI would get a bonus...PR the onus. Perhaps AI could get 5J to bite if the 77Ls were priced cheap enough?

They'd both get something out of it really. PR would have a spectacular offering if it could run 77Ls to YYZ. High yielding pax from NYC, BOS, IAD, ORD, YUL all connecting through with a good partner relationship (AC or UA). Not to mention the good size filipino community in YYZ. PR could at least pick up more premium pax instead of more unprofitable or barely profitable VFR traffic.


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