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Topic: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NZ1
Posted 2012-11-04 18:07:21 and read 28928 times.

The old thread 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 10 (by wilco737 Oct 5 2012 in Civil Aviation) was rather long, so please continue here in Part 11

NZ1
Forum Moderator

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-04 18:19:02 and read 29048 times.

I've made changes to my tablse on the blog to reflect the current status of the 787s waiting to be delvivered.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: cosmofly
Posted 2012-11-04 18:54:35 and read 28920 times.

If CAAC has issues about 787 certification, CAAC should just publish what they have concern with and let everybody make their judgement. If they are valid, I am sure there will be a lot of support to make the sky safer.

Again if it is certfication issues related, FAA could also publish what CAAC brought up.

Just wondering why all these silence about mothballing the 787s.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2012-11-04 19:09:13 and read 28868 times.

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 2):
If CAAC has issues about 787 certification, CAAC should just publish what they have concern with and let everybody make their judgement. If they are valid, I am sure there will be a lot of support to make the sky safer.

That's not how the Chinese roll. They will be more subtle and use their considerable leverage in all sorts of different areas of our Govt. That is assuming this is the hold up.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-05 00:49:36 and read 28512 times.

Quote:
They are probably removing the interiors to perform the electrical and A/C ducting rework. a good part of the interiors are common to all customers so I think it's smoke.

True, but the case of LN11, LN18 and LN22 is different. Boeing moved those frames back into storage after they did some work on it. Maybe they stripped the interiors and used it for the new frames, meaning LN11, LN18 and LN22 and maybe LN15 will go to another customer.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-05 07:35:05 and read 28299 times.

As always, thank you to All Things 787 (NYC777) and others for the information that is summarized here. For more specific information on the production aircraft, I recommend going to http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

33 Delivered to 7 Airlines

Deliveries Prior to November:
NH-16; JL-6; AI-3; ET-3; LA-2; UA–2; QR-1

Next Up (Tentative - Subject to Change):
L/N 44 - ET-AOP - 11/xx/2012 - ET #4
L/N 61 - SP-LRA - 11/09/2012 - LO #1
L/N 50 - N20902 - 11/xx/2012 - UA #3
L/N 80 - CC-BBC - 11/xx/2012 - LA #3 Awaiting first flight
L/N 55 - N26905 - TBD - UA #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 78 - SP-LRB - TBD - LO #2 Awaiting first flight

Also "Next Up" but not being accepted right away by the airlines:
L/N 54 - VT-ANJ - TBD - AI #4
L/N 60 - VT-ANK - TBD - AI #5
L/N 65 - VT-ANL - TBD - AI #6
L/N 72 - VT-ANM - TBD - AI #7 Awaiting first flight
L/N 64 - A7-BCL - TBD- QR #2
L/N 57 - A7-BCA - TBD - QR #3
L/N 62 - A7-BCC - TBD - QR #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 82 - A7-BC? - TBD - QR #5 Awaiting first flight

Please note that I have removed the Chinese aircraft from the “Next Up” list since they are being put in storage…

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-05 07:49:08 and read 28300 times.

It is shocking to me that of the 19 aircraft that have completed production and change incorporation, 13 of them are for airlines that aren't taking delivery of them in a timely manner: AI, QR, HU & CZ. That is 68%! That has to be unprecedented for this type of program. The production seems to be clogged with aircraft for these four airlines...

It will be nice to get some more "normal" airlines as operators so Boeing can deliver planes at a pace that reflects it's production and change incorporation rate. Too bad that after LO takes delivery, it will be a while until BY and AM takes their first.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-05 07:54:46 and read 28284 times.

QR is always a hassle for any program, AI is mostly financial, the Chinese carriers would probably love to take their frames but someone higher up is calling the shots now.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: capri
Posted 2012-11-05 07:58:33 and read 28292 times.

Does anyone know what will happen to AT 787 ln17 & 19, will they wait for theirs or be given new slots and/or new builds?

thx

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-05 08:07:42 and read 28304 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 8):
Does anyone know what will happen to AT 787 ln17 & 19, will they wait for theirs or be given new slots and/or new builds?

Rumor has it that they' will take new builds and that those frames will go to other customers.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: capri
Posted 2012-11-05 08:11:06 and read 28285 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 9):



thank you NYC777

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-05 08:25:27 and read 28301 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 10):
thank you NYC777

You can read more about it on http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/ram...efers-787-delivery-until-2014.html

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: capri
Posted 2012-11-05 08:32:43 and read 28298 times.

It's strange that Boeing didn't comment on schedule change for AT, usually we are used to the other way around from AT, they never comment on anything even that famous hard landing at JFK in 2009, well anyway they are trying to sell 44% of its stake that no one will buy same as strangely their 4 A321 still didn't find a buyer since March through falko

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-05 08:56:11 and read 28298 times.

Quoting capri (Reply 12):
It's strange that Boeing didn't comment on schedule change for AT, usually we are used to the other way around from AT, they never comment on anything even that famous hard landing at JFK in 2009, well anyway they are trying to sell 44% of its stake that no one will buy same as strangely their 4 A321 still didn't find a buyer since March through falko

It's Boeing's policy not to comment on customer deliveries.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: PHX787
Posted 2012-11-05 09:50:05 and read 28305 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 5):
Please note that I have removed the Chinese aircraft from the “Next Up” list since they are being put in storage…
Quoting cosmofly (Reply 2):
If CAAC has issues about 787 certification, CAAC should just publish what they have concern with and let everybody make their judgement. If they are valid, I am sure there will be a lot of support to make the sky safer.

So CAAC/ CZ and HU are going to be our new "Airlines that shall not be named"   

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: starrion
Posted 2012-11-05 11:16:31 and read 28300 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
So CAAC/ CZ and HU are going to be our new "Airlines that shall not be named"

Seriously. Charleston must be planning a parking annex.

Has the been any chatter over why the CAAC has a problem with the 787? Are they having an issue with the investigation into the problems with the GenX?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2012-11-05 11:21:53 and read 28312 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
So CAAC/ CZ and HU are going to be our new "Airlines that shall not be named"   

Seriously....   

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: WarpSpeed
Posted 2012-11-05 11:58:06 and read 28283 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
So CAAC/ CZ and HU are going to be our new "Airlines that shall not be named"


More like "Aviation Administration that shall not be named." Unlike AI, which certainly contributed to its delivery delays, CZ and HU appear to be pawns in an Anglo-American/Sino chess match.

[Edited 2012-11-05 12:10:34]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: petera380
Posted 2012-11-05 12:01:14 and read 28291 times.

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 17):
Anglo-Sino chess match

Er, I think that should read Yank-Sino chess match as Anglo refers to England as in Anglo Saxon etc!  

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-05 12:04:49 and read 28291 times.

I wonder if this Chinese issue has to due with the presidential campaign and Romney's threat to China...we will see if it goes away after the election, if Obama wins...

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: WarpSpeed
Posted 2012-11-05 12:12:30 and read 28288 times.

Quoting petera380 (Reply 18):
Er, I think that should read Yank-Sino chess match as Anglo refers to England as in Anglo Saxon etc!

I thought the same, but looked it up. Apparently, Anglo can refer to "a white person who lives in the U.S. and is not Hispanic." With that said, I've edited the post to "Anglo-American" to differentiate from "Anglo Saxon" all the more to show that we are two nations divided by a common language.

[Edited 2012-11-05 12:13:16]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: WarpSpeed
Posted 2012-11-05 12:23:49 and read 28292 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 19):
I wonder if this Chinese issue has to due with the presidential campaign and Romney's threat to China

And/or, the high Japanese content in the 787? Japanese-Chinese relations are very frayed at the moment over disputed islands and rights to surrounding natural resources. Its my understanding that the drama is being played out on economic fronts, as well as, the diplomatic/military confrontations. The 787 may be one of those battlefields...

Quoting United787 (Reply 19):
if Obama wins...

You mean, "when" Obama wins, don't you?   

[Edited 2012-11-05 12:26:03]

[Edited 2012-11-05 12:38:41]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-05 13:11:59 and read 28302 times.

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 21):
You mean, "when" Obama wins, don't you?

If I say "when", I will jink the election and then he won't win and I will have to move to Canada...and Chicago is cold enough for me...  

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: petera380
Posted 2012-11-05 13:31:13 and read 28299 times.

Quoting petera380 (Reply 18):
I wonder if this Chinese issue has to due with the presidential campaign and Romney's threat to China



From what I have read I believe that the CAAC wants the FAA/CAA to relax their rules to make it easier for the Chinese to get their own aircraft certified in the West. The CAAC standards appear to be lower then the standards used in the West.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2012-11-05 14:42:24 and read 28288 times.

Quoting petera380 (Reply 23):
From what I have read I believe that the CAAC wants the FAA/CAA to relax their rules to make it easier for the Chinese to get their own aircraft certified in the West. The CAAC standards appear to be lower then the standards used in the West.

If that is the case, the 787's for the Chinese airlines will be sitting in storage and on Boeing's books for a long time.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-05 14:54:46 and read 28761 times.

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 21):
And/or, the high Japanese content in the 787?

The 777 has a fair bit of Japanese-sourced content.

Quoting petera380 (Reply 23):
From what I have read I believe that the CAAC wants the FAA/CAA to relax their rules to make it easier for the Chinese to get their own aircraft certified in the West. The CAAC standards appear to be lower then the standards used in the West.
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 24):
If that is the case, the 787's for the Chinese airlines will be sitting in storage and on Boeing's books for a long time.

Even if the FAA did loosen their standards, that wouldn't help with EASA certification. And since CZ has taken delivery of their first A380, they have no card to play with the EU until it comes time for CA's first A350 delivery.

[Edited 2012-11-05 14:55:12]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: fleabyte
Posted 2012-11-05 15:09:59 and read 28769 times.

"From what I have read I believe that the CAAC wants the FAA/CAA to relax their rules to make it easier for the Chinese to get their own aircraft certified in the West. The CAAC standards appear to be lower then the standards used in the West."

=ABSURDITY

1. Can someone briefly explain at a high level what will be involved to refit these Chinese planes and sell them to another carrier?

2. Can someone explain what will be required to switch the future Chinese slots to the next non prima dona client in the lineup?

3. It seems like this must be hurting Hainan and China Southern business plans, and the cost of getting ready for the 787's wasted.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-05 15:23:36 and read 29296 times.

Other airlines will fly into China (i.e. United with service from LAX to Shanghai next year) While foreign airlines are flying the 787 (and other modern aircraft) into Chinese airspace, the local airlines are being shut out of acquiring the same equipment to compete with. Guess the Chinese have yet to learn something more about free market competition.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: ual747-600
Posted 2012-11-05 15:27:58 and read 29270 times.

I don't understand how the Chinese gov't can keep their domestic airlines from taking delivery of their 787's on certification issues and yet let ANA and JAL fly 787 to Chinese cities.

UAL747-600

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2012-11-05 15:30:38 and read 29280 times.

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 26):
1. Can someone briefly explain at a high level what will be involved to refit these Chinese planes and sell them to another carrier?

2. Can someone explain what will be required to switch the future Chinese slots to the next non prima dona client in the lineup?

3. It seems like this must be hurting Hainan and China Southern business plans, and the cost of getting ready for the 787's wasted.

It's not as simple as refitting for another carrier and "reallocating" slots to other carriers. If Boeing were to take the step of taking those a/c and selling them to someone else and cancelling the production slots and orders, they will effectively shut themselves out of a massive market. China is the world's most populous country and experiencing more growth in air service demand than anywhere on earth.

It would be relatively simple to either move up everyone to take the Chinese slots or sell them to an airline. Refitting the aircraft will be more complicated because each order has specialty items attached that vary from carrier to carrier. It could take weeks or months to "refit" an aircraft for another carrier.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: fleabyte
Posted 2012-11-05 15:51:58 and read 29301 times.

Thanks for your reply Sonoma Flyer

but...

I would think that In reality, China must buy aircraft from Boeing whether they want to or not, Airbus can not produce enough aircraft at this point. I realize it is not easy and hence the question.

so the already built aircraft - I assume it would be to find a flexible buyer that would accept as many installed systems as possible such as the seats, the galleys, the engines, the options on the engines and avionics, then refit the other systems that the client could not accept? and negotiate with the Chinese carrier- refusing to accept delivery to reduce, delay or cancel their order.

aircraft in production lineup - I think I read in here that major sub systems are ordered years in advance and manufactured and delivered JIT or close to JIT? So just pushing the near term slots back by 10 or 20 positions seems a reasonable reaction to the current situation of Boeing continuing to pile up 200 million dollar paper weights at the far field runway?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: WarpSpeed
Posted 2012-11-05 15:53:09 and read 29325 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
The 777 has a fair bit of Japanese-sourced content.

And, it was certified for China decades before the Diaoyu or Senkaku islands tension escalated dramatically. There have been violent anti-Japanese protests across China in the recent months.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Ruscoe
Posted 2012-11-05 16:48:02 and read 29305 times.

How much money have the Chinese airlines paid Boeing already?

I expect it could be quite a lot.

Ruscoe

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2012-11-05 16:51:27 and read 29311 times.

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 30):
I would think that In reality, China must buy aircraft from Boeing whether they want to or not, Airbus can not produce enough aircraft at this point.

I just don't think Boeing will be willing to run that risk. They will grind their teeth at keeping a/c in storage but the aircraft are needed to fuel China's growth and as you stated, Airbus can't pick up the slack. Also, China is fighting the EU on the carbon tax issue which has further complicated wide body purchases for Chinese airlines. There is leverage on Boeing's side as well.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: kanban
Posted 2012-11-05 17:33:05 and read 29263 times.

I think the country that shall not be named discussion on delayed deliveries should be a separate thread. we burn through these fast enough as it is especially with the airline that shall note be named, the CEO that shall not be named, and now the country....

as far as these planes though, would the same governmental restrictions apply if the airlines were leasing them? Say they asked a leasing company to buy the planes for them.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: etoile
Posted 2012-11-05 18:22:31 and read 29243 times.

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 20):
i've edited the post to "Anglo-American" to differentiate from "Anglo Saxon" all the more to show that we are two nations divided by a common language.

Why are you excluding 1/3 of the U.S. population?

[Edited 2012-11-05 19:01:44]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-05 19:23:22 and read 29239 times.

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 26):
1. Can someone briefly explain at a high level what will be involved to refit these Chinese planes and sell them to another carrier?

Remove the customer-specific interior (sidewalls, seats, carpet, galleys, lavs, IFE). Install new customer interior. Change out the software. Re-register the aircraft (actual registry, ICAO code, SELCAL, etc.). Potentially add/remove several hardware options.

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 26):
2. Can someone explain what will be required to switch the future Chinese slots to the next non prima dona client in the lineup?

Very little. Customers have no say in what production slot they have (they only have control over their delivery time window). Slots are typically assigned about 6-12 months ahead (probably more for the 787 since it's so delayed) but they're moved around on a regular basis.

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 26):
"From what I have read I believe that the CAAC wants the FAA/CAA to relax their rules to make it easier for the Chinese to get their own aircraft certified in the West. The CAAC standards appear to be lower then the standards used in the West."

=ABSURDITY

How so? This has happened before, no particular reason it can't be happening again.

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 26):
3. It seems like this must be hurting Hainan and China Southern business plans, and the cost of getting ready for the 787's wasted.

Yes, but Hainan and China Southern don't control aircraft purchasing, the Chinese government does. If the government has decided, for whatever reason, that this is a good political move then Hainan and China Southern have no leverage to combat that.

Quoting ual747-600 (Reply 28):
I don't understand how the Chinese gov't can keep their domestic airlines from taking delivery of their 787's on certification issues and yet let ANA and JAL fly 787 to Chinese cities.

ANA and JAL 787's are certified by the JAA, not the Chinese government. ICAO treaties, almost without exception, grant reciprocal acceptance of other countries' certification. That's the same way that old Russian aircraft can fly in the US despite not having (and probably never having) FAA certification.

Tom.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: fleabyte
Posted 2012-11-05 22:47:01 and read 29149 times.

Hi TDS Canuck

I did not realize the FAA had relaxed standards already in such a scenario? when was that and for what aircraft?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-06 02:08:16 and read 29081 times.

I hope we never trade safety for profits, the western world may be financially weak but we still have some morals left! This time I think the Chinese miscalculated with our resolve?!

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-06 03:29:09 and read 29078 times.

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 21):
And/or, the high Japanese content in the 787? Japanese-Chinese relations are very frayed at the moment over disputed islands and rights to surrounding natural resources.

Well, if that is the case either they will never operate 787's or they must make accomodations elsewhere, I'm certain they know that Boeing will not chnage OEM's and set up an entirely new production system for a/c destined for China

Quoting ual747-600 (Reply 28):
I don't understand how the Chinese gov't can keep their domestic airlines from taking delivery of their 787's on certification issues and yet let ANA and JAL fly 787 to Chinese cities.

It is every governments right to set the standards for its people, domestic is just that, domestic.
Now if China cancels it bi-lateral with Japan to stop the 787 operating into China for the benefit of the Japanese people, one can expect them to do the same with any other country who attempt to fly the 787 into China, would be very benevolent of them looking out for the world like that. 

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: scouseflyer
Posted 2012-11-06 03:36:09 and read 29104 times.

I'm very puzzled that the Chinese seem to be picking fights with both A & B at the moment (remember that they keep trying to influence EU rules by dangling the "large A330" order that could be placed. Where are they going to get wide bodies from if they fall out with both suppliers?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: par13del
Posted 2012-11-06 05:46:14 and read 29072 times.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 40):
Where are they going to get wide bodies from if they fall out with both suppliers?

Will never happen, the politicians in the USA and the EU want / need Chinese money, so accomodations will be made elsewhere.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 40):
I'm very puzzled that the Chinese seem to be picking fights with both A & B

It's called leveraging ones position, in this case, they are a customer. Until a business house tells a customer to take his money elsewhere, these things will continue. Boeing previously turned down FR, but did cave to "others" and did a flying display for the first time in decades, fact that the customer did not take the a/c after supposed "damages" and made public its displeasure on the issue did make those of us who did not support the cave on the display a bit of "See I told you so", but we digress.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2012-11-06 05:51:49 and read 29110 times.

I have a little update from various sources, regarding delivery of SP-LRA (Lot's first 787). As of now, it is scheduled for November 9, following by training flights.

Flyout to Warsaw will take place on 14th, arrival on the 15th, sometime between 10:30 and 11:30 local time. Apparently, it will be "intercepted" escorted to WAW by pair of PLAF F-16s with formation flypast over Okecie Airport, weather permitting.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-06 06:54:32 and read 29098 times.

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 37):
I did not realize the FAA had relaxed standards already in such a scenario?

It's not the FAA relaxing their standards. It's the FAA accepting at prima facia value the certification of another country's aviation certification agency. And it is not unique or specific to the FAA, but is established by treaty for most agencies.

If the CAAC is deliberately holding up certification of the 787, Boeing might very well have legal grounds to stand on, but they won't because of the backlash from the Chinese if they did so.

As such, they'll just park the planes in the corner until CAAC is ready to accept them.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-06 09:01:21 and read 29050 times.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 42):
I have a little update from various sources, regarding delivery of SP-LRA (Lot's first 787). As of now, it is scheduled for November 9, following by training flights.

Flyout to Warsaw will take place on 14th, arrival on the 15th, sometime between 10:30 and 11:30 local time. Apparently, it will be "intercepted" escorted to WAW by pair of PLAF F-16s with formation flypast over Okecie Airport, weather permitting.

Anything on delivery of SP-LRB?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2012-11-06 09:22:07 and read 29046 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 44):
Anything on delivery of SP-LRB?

Not yet, unfortunately.

The only information I have is that SP-LRB and -LRC are to be delivered sometime in January, 2013. No exact dates have been mentioned anywhere yet.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: cosmofly
Posted 2012-11-06 12:54:16 and read 28987 times.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 3):

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 2):
If CAAC has issues about 787 certification, CAAC should just publish what they have concern with and let everybody make their judgement. If they are valid, I am sure there will be a lot of support to make the sky safer.

That's not how the Chinese roll.

" “Some people say the CAAC is being tougher with Comac than the FAA would have been,” says that official. That should not be a surprise. The Chinese authority, renowned for its conservative approach to safety, is also unusually demanding in the standards it imposes on airframe maintenance, while its requirements for the physical condition of civil pilots are sometimes half jokingly compared with the national space program’s demands on astronauts. "

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_10_26_2012_p0-511368.xml

Article says CAAC is tough even with Chinese ARJ certification.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: aeroblogger
Posted 2012-11-06 13:39:50 and read 28980 times.

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 17):
More like "Aviation Administration that shall not be named." Unlike AI, which certainly contributed to its delivery delays, CZ and HU appear to be pawns in an Anglo-American/Sino chess match.

In the case of Air India's delivery delays, AI is also a pawn in a chess match. It's just that the chess match is internal - between the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Civil Aviation...

Thanks to this chess match, MoF has blocked AI's access to the bridge financing they had lined up, so AI has restarted the tender process a few weeks ago.

Until this new tendering process is complete (or Ministry of Finance shuts up), AI's deliveries are all on hold.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-06 14:22:56 and read 28996 times.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 47):

In the case of Air India's delivery delays, AI is also a pawn in a chess match. It's just that the chess match is internal - between the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Civil Aviation...

Thanks to this chess match, MoF has blocked AI's access to the bridge financing they had lined up, so AI has restarted the tender process a few weeks ago.

Until this new tendering process is complete (or Ministry of Finance shuts up), AI's deliveries are all on hold.

That's just great.   

Any fears in the Western World of India being an economic power house are put to rest by the actions of hte Indian Govt.

Guess there's always Jet Airways.

[Edited 2012-11-06 14:23:48]

[Edited 2012-11-06 15:36:18]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: WarpSpeed
Posted 2012-11-06 15:55:15 and read 28946 times.

Quoting etoile (Reply 35):
Why are you excluding 1/3 of the U.S. population?

You're right, I should have just said Americans! The melting pot of the world. I'm sure "Sino" offended someone, somewhere, too....

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 47):
In the case of Air India's delivery delays, AI is also a pawn in a chess match

Stepping back a bit, would the Indian government be so involved at this juncture but for AI needing a bailout due unprofitable operations/mismanagement? Its hard to imagine AI as a pawn if their actions gave rise to increased oversight. My apologies upfront for not having a complete understanding of the dynamics at play here. Your perspective adds a lot to this thread.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 48):
Guess there's always Jet Airways.

The only profitable Indian airline, correct? When are they expected to take delivery of their first 787?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-06 16:29:21 and read 28993 times.

ANA, JAL, UA,ET, QR and LOT will take some frames before years end, maybe they even get their frames a bit faster when others are putting up a show. Bad luck to have so many customers with problems.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: aeroblogger
Posted 2012-11-06 17:16:45 and read 28980 times.

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 49):
Stepping back a bit, would the Indian government be so involved at this juncture but for AI needing a bailout due unprofitable operations/mismanagement? Its hard to imagine AI as a pawn if their actions gave rise to increased oversight. My apologies upfront for not having a complete understanding of the dynamics at play here. Your perspective adds a lot to this thread.

Air India is most certainly a pawn. Management has no control over the airline - the Ministry micromanages the airline. Why? So that they can embezzle hundreds of millions of dollars out of the airline... Ministries like Civil Aviation and Railways are known as "Cash Ministries" - they are given to partners of the leading coalition for a few years at a time to fund their campaigns and create a vote bank (labor usually).

You can learn more in detail about corruption in India as it pertains to the Civil Aviation (and Air India in particular) in this audit:
Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3
Chapter 4
Chapter 5
Chapter 6
Chapter 7

I won't go into the private carriers now, but I will tell you that they have their own warts as well. If you have more questions, feel free to PM, I don't want to take us too far off topic  
Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 49):
The only profitable Indian airline, correct? When are they expected to take delivery of their first 787?

9W is not anywhere near long term profitability. They have an occasional profitable quarter or 2, but overall, it's a money-losing venture. It's an airline after all  

6E is India's most profitable carrier, although those strong balance sheets are benefiting from repeated sale-leasebacks.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-06 18:09:03 and read 29219 times.

Quoting fleabyte (Reply 37):
I did not realize the FAA had relaxed standards already in such a scenario? when was that and for what aircraft?

I didn't mean that the FAA had relaxed standards necessarily, just that different regulators have disagreed with each other and butted heads in the past, sometimes within or without larger political machinations, as part of aircraft certification. The flammability reduction rule comes to mind (that was primarily FAA vs. EASA).

Quoting sweair (Reply 38):
I hope we never trade safety for profits, the western world may be financially weak but we still have some morals left!

Too late. Take a look at how the Eclipse got certified.

Tom.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-07 02:12:42 and read 29132 times.

Qatar has taken delivery of A7-BCA (LN57 / ZA460) and A7-BCL (LN64 / ZA463) yesterday.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-07 02:47:32 and read 29104 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 53):
Qatar has taken delivery of A7-BCA (LN57 / ZA460) and A7-BCL (LN64 / ZA463) yesterday.

Is there anywhere that we could get official confirmation of this? We have been fooled before, jumping the gun. But seeing how Qr whined about not getting its frames fast enough, I am sure there is some good will from U-turns side, more love than from either India or China anyway. Qatar has no cash worries I bet, they just have high standards, not a speck of dust would be ok before delivery. This would make it 3 frames and 2 more are on the flight line being prepared. With a bit of luck Al could have 5 frames at years end.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-07 03:03:00 and read 29090 times.

It's confirmed by Uresh and a flight plan to VCV has been filled.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: someone83
Posted 2012-11-07 03:21:46 and read 29099 times.

How long is the IFE installation at VCV for the Qatar aircrafts expected to take?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-07 03:38:36 and read 29139 times.

It was reported as "within 30 days". The first Qatar frame (A7-BCB, ferry flight to VCV on October 8) should be finished by now.

/edit

Wait, I assume the people in VCV don't work on weekends so it can take another 10 days.

[Edited 2012-11-07 03:44:15]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-07 12:25:33 and read 29046 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 53):
Qatar has taken delivery of A7-BCA (LN57 / ZA460) and A7-BCL (LN64 / ZA463) yesterday.

Well that is great news! I had wondered if we might see a double delivery from them...

I think it is safe to move QR to the "normal" airline list for my next update...

BTW, a minor milestone but the 788 has now passed the 748 in deliveries... 35 788 vs. 34 748

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: petera380
Posted 2012-11-07 13:18:59 and read 29057 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 58):
35 788 vs. 34 748

I believe it's 34 788 vs 32 748.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-07 13:20:31 and read 29060 times.

Quoting petera380 (Reply 59):
I believe it's 34 788...

It's 35: 3 in 2011 and 32 (to date) in 2012.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-07 14:11:41 and read 29050 times.

34 is correct, only 1 QR frame delivered.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-07 14:19:36 and read 29071 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 61):
34 is correct, only 1 QR frame delivered.

Only one flew away today, both delivered.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: capri
Posted 2012-11-07 14:31:39 and read 29083 times.

With all the fuss going on with 787 since it started, i think the 8 turned out to be a rebel of all Boeing 7x7 series

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: aeroblogger
Posted 2012-11-07 15:22:52 and read 29092 times.

For those of you who are interested in reading the tender AI has put out for the fresh bridge loan financing, you can read it here: http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tender/RFP-Bridge%202012.pdf

Note #8 - the earlier financing had been negotiated with a GoI guarantee, which Ministry of Financing is now refusing to honor.

Also, note #3 - Boeing/AI's expected 2 Dreamliners to be delivered this month as of Oct 30. I would be very surprised if AI and Boeing can keep to this schedule.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: WarpSpeed
Posted 2012-11-07 17:09:39 and read 29039 times.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 64):
Note #8 - the earlier financing had been negotiated with a GoI guarantee, which Ministry of Financing is now refusing to honor.

The RFP's for the prior financings had the same no GoI guarantee language as in the link you provided (I reviewed them). Did the final agreements for the "winning" financing provider some how end up with such a guarantee? If so, its highly likely that any response to this new RFP will be conditioned upon ranking equally to the prior deals in all material respects; including a GoI guarantee. That is, unless AI sweetens the collateral over and above the prior deals to mitigate the lack of a guarantee.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: aeroblogger
Posted 2012-11-07 17:41:39 and read 29082 times.

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 65):
The RFP's for the prior financings had the same no GoI guarantee language as in the link you provided (I reviewed them). Did the final agreements for the "winning" financing provider some how end up with such a guarantee? If so, its highly likely that any response to this new RFP will be conditioned upon ranking equally to the prior deals in all material respects; including a GoI guarantee. That is, unless AI sweetens the collateral over and above the prior deals to mitigate the lack of a guarantee.

Huh, I just went back and looked the earlier RFPs over, and sure enough, you're right. They all state that there is no GoI guarantee for bridge loans.

Unfortunately, my go-to person at AI finance is traveling tonight, but I will find out and get back to you tomorrow...

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-08 07:44:14 and read 29048 times.

Quoting petera380 (Reply 59):
I believe it's 34 788 vs 32 748.

According to this thread, 34 748s have been delivered in total:

Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production #10 (by wilco737 Oct 4 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-09 00:02:32 and read 28958 times.

LN83 / ZA512 (ANA) finished final assembly.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/8168537272/in/photostream/

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-09 04:23:41 and read 28941 times.

Some updates:

- The next Qatar frame (A7-BCK, LN62, ZA462) is now in paint on the flightline
- The 5th Qatar frame for this year (LN82, ZA464) is inside the paint shop
- A 787 delivery ceremony for LOT is scheduled for November 12
- The second 787 for LOT (SP-LRB, LN78, ZA271) is now back on the flightline (she was at the EMC for some time)

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-09 06:39:39 and read 28907 times.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 42):
I have a little update from various sources, regarding delivery of SP-LRA (Lot's first 787). As of now, it is scheduled for November 9, following by training flights.

Is LO's first plane still scheduled for contractual delivery today?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-09 11:45:22 and read 28925 times.

Looks like UAL ZA286 is out on its C-1 (5 out of the last 7 airplanes have only flown a B-1 then on to customer       ) and ETH ZA261 is on its 3rd and final (hopefully) customer flight.


http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE286

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE261

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-09 14:30:27 and read 28851 times.

It's my understanding that Boeing made contractual delivery to LOT today.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-09 16:24:23 and read 28873 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 72):
It's my understanding that Boeing made contractual delivery to LOT today.

If that's the case this is the second 787 to have only one Boeing flight and one customer flight. This program is maturing rapidly.      

Quote from another blog:

" This is not the 777 or 737 program so I don't see how you can compare the those programs with the 787.

October 26, 2012 8:36 AM"

I guess we can start comparing.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-09 18:59:55 and read 28853 times.

Both KarelXWB and 7BOEING7 said 2 QR frames were delivered this week so I am going with it...

As always, thank you to All Things 787 (NYC777) and others for the information that is summarized here. For more specific information on the aircraft in production, I recommend going to http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

DELIVERED TO DATE: 36 Aircraft to 8 Airlines

DELIVERIES PRIOR TO NOVEMBER
NH-16; JL-6; AI-3; ET-3; LA-2; UA–2; QR-1

NOVEMBER DELIVERIES TO DATE
L/N 64 - A7-BCL – 11/06/2012- QR #2
L/N 57 - A7-BCA – 11/06/2012 - QR #3
L/N 61 - SP-LRA - 11/09/2012 - LO #1

NEXT IN LINE FOR DELIVERY Tentative - Subject to Change
L/N 44 - ET-AOP - 11/xx/2012 - ET #4
L/N 50 - N20902 - 11/xx/2012 - UA #3
L/N 80 - CC-BBC - 11/xx/2012 - LA #3 Awaiting first flight
L/N 55 - N26905 - TBD - UA #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 62 - A7-BCC - TBD - QR #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 78 - SP-LRB - TBD - LO #2 Awaiting first flight
L/N 82 - A7-BC? - TBD - QR #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 83 - JA81?A - TBD - NH #17 Awaiting first flight

In addition, there are three airlines that aren’t accepting deliveries of completed aircraft due to financing or political/certification issues: 4 for AI; 3? for CZ; & 2 for HU.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-10 01:48:28 and read 28803 times.

Qr could have 5 frames by the end of 2012, do you guys think they will accept all this year, I think they only accepted 1 in November so far, 1 more is ready for delivery, 2 more await first flight. Coming years end a few more airlines would have 4 or 5 frames starting 2013.

Hainan has a bad time now, A380s deferred and its 787s stored. I guess they feel a bit squashed between its needs and the politicians in charge? The cant be blamed for the 787 holdup, that would be a political problem CAAC is the governments agency.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-11-10 09:54:11 and read 28814 times.

It looks like we are on course for over a hundred 787 deliveries in 2013. Finally building 'economy of scale.' I've been posting on various a.net threats that once there is are enough 787s+A350s in the fleet, we will see a big shift in routes offered (as well as economic shift on other aircraft types). That is a few years away, but we are on the path.   

Note: I'm also an A380 fan. If one plots a dot on a chart with the x-axis being the cost per flight and the y-axis the CASM, the 787, A350, and A380 all hold excellent positions. (One wants to be towards the lower left corner of the chart.) This will continue to make life interesting on the 744, A346/A345, A343, 763ER, and eventually A332 (but much later).

So far of the airlines flying the 788 today, I'm most interested to see what LA does with the type. I think they will be the first (but not the only) airline to show how the 787 will 'change the game.' But there is a chance UA, NH, or JL will also (but I just haven't seen it yet); perhaps I missed an interesting new route announcement? What I know is LA and the 787 are certain to change how people fly between South America and Europe and probably North America too.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 48):
Any fears in the Western World of India being an economic power house are put to rest by the actions of hte Indian Govt.

I'm not sure holding up 787 deliveries is really hurting AI. Not with readily available 77Ls. But the GoI is amusing in how they handicap the home industries. That needs to change for economic reasons, but is outside this forum (and very off topic). I'm sad not seeing 787s delivered, but with the 'Airline that shall not be named,' it is just another day. Its stopped being drama but rather expected.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-10 10:19:12 and read 28971 times.

ZA460 is making another test flight today thus this aircraft has not been delivered to Qatar.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-10 10:24:23 and read 29008 times.

Parts for the first Thomson 787 is being loaded into FAL now, production to start in a week? Nice to see a multitude of airlines getting their 787s now. Even if this frame will not deliver for a few months yet.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-10 10:39:32 and read 28997 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 77):
ZA460 is making another test flight today thus this aircraft has not been delivered to Qatar

Looks like a C-2 coming up for QTR (not really unexpected) and ETH ZA261 is out for its (gulp!) C-4 -- some kids just never want to leave home.



http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE460

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE261

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: ER757
Posted 2012-11-10 16:35:41 and read 28944 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 77):
ZA460 is making another test flight today thus this aircraft has not been delivered to Qatar.

Don't know which aircraft number it was, but a QR 787 was at BFI today - saw it when I was headed northbound on I-5 around 09:00 and was still there when I headed back south around 12:30. Have to say that is one beautiful bird. Best looking 787 I've seen so far

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-10 17:17:47 and read 28939 times.

The one at BFI is ZA462 fresh from VCV.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: afriwing
Posted 2012-11-12 00:16:52 and read 28871 times.

It's being tweeted that QR officials are now heading to Seattle for the delivery ceremony of A7-BCB (QR's 1st delivery)

This is the actual delivery, as opposed to the media-propaganda-a-la-QR-style delivery last month   

So ceremony is expected tomorrow or after.
Congrats QR, finally

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: dynamicsguy
Posted 2012-11-12 01:12:38 and read 28874 times.

Quoting afriwing (Reply 82):
This is the actual delivery, as opposed to the media-propaganda-a-la-QR-style delivery last month

I know you're stirring, but I'll bite. No this is not. The actual delivery is when they transfer ownership, and that is what happened back then. What QR chooses to do with it after that is their own business.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: justloveplanes
Posted 2012-11-12 03:49:05 and read 28810 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 76):
What I know is LA and the 787 are certain to change how people fly between South America and Europe and probably North America too.

So is Chile going to be a mini-Dubai?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-12 07:33:16 and read 28814 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 76):
What I know is LA and the 787 are certain to change how people fly between South America and Europe and probably North America too.

Indeed, LA is extremely happy with the performance of the 787s and will deploy them on routes to LAX very soon. However, LA is looking at opening two new long-haul routes to Europe next year with the 787s.

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 84):


Quoting lightsaber (Reply 76):
What I know is LA and the 787 are certain to change how people fly between South America and Europe and probably North America too.

So is Chile going to be a mini-Dubai?

FYI, LAN has passenger affiliates in five different South American countries and also plans to open new long-haul routes via Brazil in cooperation with its sister carrier TAM.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-12 08:07:54 and read 28787 times.

Another LAN '87 is on the Flightline at Everett and should have its first flight soon.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-12 08:13:14 and read 28790 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 86):
Another LAN '87 is on the Flightline at Everett and should have its first flight soon.

Great. LAN expects to receive CC-BBC by the end of November which will accelerate the launch of 787 services to LAX.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: rwessel
Posted 2012-11-12 08:53:42 and read 28796 times.

Boeing has announced that they rolled out the first 787 at the 5/mo production rate last week, and stated that they'll be increasing production to 10/mo by the end of 2013.


http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2492

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-12 09:25:17 and read 28769 times.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 88):
Boeing has announced that they rolled out the first 787 at the 5/mo production rate last week, and stated that they'll be increasing production to 10/mo by the end of 2013.


http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.ph...=2492

The initial goal was 10 a month -- 7 at Everett without the surge line and 3 in S Carolina. So since I imagine the surge line will still be in operation turning out 1, 2, 3 ? a month it appears they will not make their goal of 7 a month down the main line.    

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-12 10:06:19 and read 28767 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 89):
The initial goal was 10 a month -- 7 at Everett without the surge line and 3 in S Carolina.

The original goal was 10 a month just at PAE. And Boeing have hinted that they could take (combined) production across both PAE and CHS beyond 10 per month.

[Edited 2012-11-12 10:06:36]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: rwessel
Posted 2012-11-12 11:53:49 and read 28707 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 89):
The initial goal was 10 a month -- 7 at Everett without the surge line and 3 in S Carolina. So since I imagine the surge line will still be in operation turning out 1, 2, 3 ? a month it appears they will not make their goal of 7 a month down the main line.

I can't read anything into Boeing statement that says they're expecting no further increases in production rate beyond 2013, or that 10/mo is their final goal. They're not saying they will increase it further either, of course. The announcement simply says nothing about what might follow "late 2013".

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-12 12:46:48 and read 28732 times.

LN84 / ZA183 (JAL) at position 4 inside the 40-26 building.



Here is LN83 at position 2 inside the 40-24 building, before moving to position 4 inside 40-26:



LN87 / ZA273 (LOT) and LN89 / ZA184 (JAL) at position 2 and 1 inside the 40-24 building (surge line).



Quite impressive. The surge line started with 1 frame, now there are 2 and soon there will be 3 frames at positions 1, 2 and 3 each. Together with the 4 frames inside the 40-26 building Boeing will be assembling 7 frames at once in Everett.

[Edited 2012-11-12 12:48:31]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: kanban
Posted 2012-11-12 14:05:17 and read 28716 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 89):
it appears they will not make their goal of 7 a month down the main line.
Quoting rwessel (Reply 91):
I can't read anything into Boeing statement that says they're expecting no further increases in production rate beyond 2013, or that 10/mo is their final goal. T

I believe that Boeing is keeping it's mouth shut and reviewing the process of these first accelerations before sticking their neck out and making announcements before all the pieces/subs are in place.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-12 16:35:08 and read 28683 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 90):
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 89):The initial goal was 10 a month -- 7 at Everett without the surge line and 3 in S Carolina.
The original goal was 10 a month just at PAE. And Boeing have hinted that they could take (combined) production across both PAE and CHS beyond 10 per month.

I agree the initial goal was 10 at PAE but that went away in mid 2010 and since then it has been 7 and 3 without the surge line by the end of 2013. Now they're saying 10 from all sources by the end of 2013 which means their single line 10 has dropped to 7 and now to something less than 7 depending on how many the surge line turns out a month.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 91):
I can't read anything into Boeing statement that says they're expecting no further increases in production rate beyond 2013, or that 10/mo is their final goal. They're not saying they will increase it further either, of course. The announcement simply says nothing about what might follow "late 2013".

I'm not saying they won't go higher, it all depends on their suppliers. I'm just sayng that it's taking 3 lines now to produce what they initally expected to produce by late 2013 from 1 or 2 lines, which is an extra added expense.

Quoting kanban (Reply 93):
I believe that Boeing is keeping it's mouth shut and reviewing the process of these first accelerations before sticking their neck out and making announcements before all the pieces/subs are in place.

Not from what I've read over the last several years.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: kanban
Posted 2012-11-12 18:49:19 and read 28658 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 94):
Not from what I've read over the last several years.

and look at what it cost them... maybe they're learning...

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-11-12 21:03:58 and read 28695 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 85):
Indeed, LA is extremely happy with the performance of the 787s and will deploy them on routes to LAX very soon. However, LA is looking at opening two new long-haul routes to Europe next year with the 787s.

Exactly. While initially it will be new routes to Europe that are exciting, I also see potential to OZ (long term, not for 3 to 5 years at a minimum) as well as new destinations in North America.

What I also wonder is the opportunities in Africa... However, I do not know enough about the business ties to start suggesting routes.

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 84):
So is Chile going to be a mini-Dubai?

Not just Chile. I should have said LATAM.    But it will open up hubbing for them in Chile that otherwise either wouldn't happen or would happen elsewhere. I also expect the TAM division to also see new long haul. With the 787? Eventually. Just when... . I'll have to admit I was thinking more the Chile LAN and TAM for the 787's near term prospects. While I hope the other LAN's show high potential (Argentina, Equador, and Colombia), I just do not see them having the need for the 787 yet.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 88):

Boeing has announced that they rolled out the first 787 at the 5/mo production rate last week, and stated that they'll be increasing production to 10/mo by the end of 2013.

Excellent. Now there was noise of deliveries of 10/mo starting soon. Have the various political 'issues' derailed that hope?  
Quoting Stitch (Reply 90):
The original goal was 10 a month just at PAE.

   Without a surge line too... But alas, production needs to smooth out before that happens.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 94):
I'm just sayng that it's taking 3 lines now to produce what they initally expected to produce by late 2013 from 1 or 2 lines, which is an extra added expense.

   They are producing from 3 lines what they should have been able to do from 1. Cest la vie. How much "traveling work" is coming with the components? I suspect it is still high, but a fraction of the initial traveling work.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-12 21:23:29 and read 28676 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 96):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 85):
Indeed, LA is extremely happy with the performance of the 787s and will deploy them on routes to LAX very soon. However, LA is looking at opening two new long-haul routes to Europe next year with the 787s.

Exactly. While initially it will be new routes to Europe that are exciting, I also see potential to OZ (long term, not for 3 to 5 years at a minimum) as well as new destinations in North America.

LAN also sees major potential for growth on long-haul routes via Brazil. 2014 will be an interesting year for LATAM as LAN will receive 7 787s during that year alone. By 2015, LAN plans to deploy the B-787-9s to AKL/SYD. By the end of 2015, LAN will have at least 16 787s in the fleet.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 96):
While I hope the other LAN's show high potential (Argentina, Equador, and Colombia), I just do not see them having the need for the 787 yet.

LAN Perú, LAN Colombia and LAN Ecuador will eventually operate the 787s as well.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-13 03:06:58 and read 28641 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 68):
LN83 / ZA512 (ANA) finished final assembly.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/8...ream/

LN83 is already in paint, 4 days after FAL roll out. Became JA817A for ANA: http://www.flickr.com/photos/microvolt/8180920763/

It looks like the remaining jobs after final assembly are still decreasing.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2012-11-13 08:14:00 and read 28608 times.

Small update on LO 787 deliveries, per airline CEO comments:

SP-LRA - delivered 09.11.2012
SP-LRB - due "early" January 2013
SP-LRC - due "late" January 2013
SP-LRD - due "early" February 2013
SP-LRE - due "early" March 2013.

Source - in Polish

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-13 08:41:25 and read 28605 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 69):
- A 787 delivery ceremony for LOT is scheduled for November 12
Quoting afriwing (Reply 82):
It's being tweeted that QR officials are now heading to Seattle for the delivery ceremony of A7-BCB (QR's 1st delivery)

According to Boeing, the QR 787 delivery took place yesterday, 11/12/2012. No mention of the other 1 or 2 contractual deliveries...

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2493

What about LO, they were supposed to have their big delivery ceremony yesterday?

In other news, I just checked to see if UA had put their #2 (N26906) in service and saw that it has been doing IAH-SFO, IAH-EWR and IAH-ORD. But now it is showing that it is enroute to BFI. Is UA returning the plane, 30 day money back guarantee  http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26906

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-13 09:13:45 and read 28567 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 98):
LN83 is already in paint, 4 days after FAL roll out. Became JA817A for ANA: http://www.flickr.com/photos/microvo...0763/

Now someone else says that JA817A is LN59.

@NYC777 do you know which line number JA817A is?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-13 10:10:53 and read 28702 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 100):
According to Boeing, the QR 787 delivery took place yesterday, 11/12/2012. No mention of the other 1 or 2 contractual deliveries...

This is the ceremonial delivery of the 11st '87 that was delivered contractually last month. QR has received two 787s, the third should be delivered next week.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-13 10:14:16 and read 28684 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 101):
Now someone else says that JA817A is LN59.

@NYC777 do you know which line number JA817A is?
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 101):
Now someone else says that JA817A is LN59.

@NYC777 do you know which line number JA817A is?

I put a call into my source and I'm waiting to find out.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2012-11-13 10:14:49 and read 28701 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 101):
What about LO, they were supposed to have their big delivery ceremony yesterday?

Apparently, the big feast will take place in Warsaw, hopefully... While Polish news outlets are reporting the delivery, industry services are awfully quiet on this topic.

The flypast over Okecie (WAW) is confirmed; 787 will be escorted by formation of four F-16s, before landing. If anybody is in Warsaw in the late morning, around 10:30CET, it's definitely worth stopping by Okecie.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-13 10:19:00 and read 28688 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 102):
This is the ceremonial delivery of the 11st '87 that was delivered contractually last month. QR has received two 787s, the third should be delivered next week.

Oops, I meant ceremonial delivery... I will correct the QR delivery date for #3 on my next post...

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-13 10:50:41 and read 28699 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 103):
I put a call into my source and I'm waiting to find out.

Great! Thanks.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 102):
This is the ceremonial delivery of the 11st '87 that was delivered contractually last month. QR has received two 787s, the third should be delivered next week.

Here is a picture of the ceremony:
http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...qatar-airways-787-delivery-flight/

Al Baker with scissors in his hand, that looks like a dangerous combination  

[Edited 2012-11-13 10:54:44]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: flightsimer
Posted 2012-11-13 10:57:55 and read 28701 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 94):

We won't know what the true output of each assembly line is until they increase above 10 frames a year. Just because they have decided to use three lines instead of one for the 10/month, I would not make the statement that the original line can not handle it. If they create another line, then we know that the current lines can't be expanded to meet demand. But if they continue expand the production rate with no new lines, then we know Boeing had built a safety margin into their production plan by splitting up production onto different lines instead of trying to make them all on one.

By splitting up production now, they trained more employees up front. However, when it comes time to increase production, they will have already had practical experience and should be able to transition to the higher rates easier and quicker than if they were hired later.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-13 10:58:43 and read 28723 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 106):
Al baker with scissors in his hand, that looks like a dangerous combination



I would be more concerned with Ray Conner (or any Boeing or Airbus executive) holding a pair of scissors next to Al Baker after the crap he pulls...

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: ual747-600
Posted 2012-11-13 11:16:01 and read 28726 times.

Does anyone know why UA N26906 is on the way to KBFI today?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26906

UAL747-600

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-13 11:18:55 and read 28741 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 101):

Now someone else says that JA817A is LN59.

@NYC777 do you know which line number JA817A is?

LN 59 is in Stall 102 and painted.

LN 83 is in the paint hangar

LN 59 is JA817A.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-13 11:19:12 and read 28734 times.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 107):
We won't know what the true output of each assembly line is until they increase above 10 frames a year. Just because they have decided to use three lines instead of one for the 10/month, I would not make the statement that the original line can not handle it. If they create another line, then we know that the current lines can't be expanded to meet demand. But if they continue expand the production rate with no new lines, then we know Boeing had built a safety margin into their production plan by splitting up production onto different lines instead of trying to make them all on one.

By splitting up production now, they trained more employees up front. However, when it comes time to increase production, they will have already had practical experience and should be able to transition to the higher rates easier and quicker than if they were hired later.

The main 787 assembly line inside the 40-26 building is certainly able of producing at least 7 frames a month. If the 777 line can do it, so can the 787 line. So what is the problem with the main assembly line? Are there not enough workers? No, because Boeing would hire more workers if that is the case.

I think the problem is the tooling. I think workers have to do a lot of the work by hand, and there is still a lot of traveling work. Doing things by hand costs more time, and at this time you can only increase production by adding extra space. And that is what Boeing did with the 40-24 building: adding a new assembly line.

Boeing will decrease the traveling work and they can shut down the surge line once the main line is producing - let's say - 7 frames a month. Boeing could also keep the surge line to ramp the production beyond 10 frames a month but I'm not sure if that will ever happen.

[Edited 2012-11-13 11:21:25]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-13 11:31:56 and read 28742 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 110):
LN 59 is in Stall 102 and painted.

LN 83 is in the paint hangar

LN 59 is JA817A.

Cool, thanks for the quick update.

Quoting United787 (Reply 108):
I would be more concerned with Ray Conner (or any Boeing or Airbus executive) holding a pair of scissors next to Al Baker after the crap he pulls...

:D

Quoting ual747-600 (Reply 109):
Does anyone know why UA N26906 is on the way to KBFI today?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26906

Test flight? Crew training? Some kind of ceremony at Boeing Field? It's not heading to PAE so I don't think something is wrong with the plane.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-13 11:41:13 and read 28762 times.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 107):
We won't know what the true output of each assembly line is until they increase above 10 frames a year. Just because they have decided to use three lines instead of one for the 10/month, I would not make the statement that the original line can not handle it.

Never said the original line can't handle it, just said they won't be producing as many on the main line at PAE as they said they would by the end of 2013. I fully expect them to eventually get to 7 or even 10 a month on that line--they're over 8 a month on the 777.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 107):
But if they continue expand the production rate with no new lines, then we know Boeing had built a safety margin into their production plan by splitting up production onto different lines instead of trying to make them all on one.

Each new line is more investment $$$$ pushing the breakeven point farther out. It may get more planes out the door each month but they cost more.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 107):
By splitting up production now, they trained more employees up front. However, when it comes time to increase production, they will have already had practical experience and should be able to transition to the higher rates easier and quicker than if they were hired later.

The object is not to train more employees to increase the rate but to use the ones they have more efficiently.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-13 12:04:22 and read 28755 times.

The manager that had to leave told Charleston they would make 7 frames a month in the future, I can see 7+7 being the long term plan for Boeing. They built Charleston with expansion in mind.

Seeing how few new orders the 787 program has got the last few years maybe there is no need to go above 120 frames /year? At the end of 2012 they have produced closer to 100 frames so far in the program, with some 800 more to get produced.

I wonder when the backlog will start to grow again?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-13 12:21:13 and read 28771 times.

Quote:
I wonder when the backlog will start to grow again?

Never? Boeing will be building 787 frames faster they are selling them. In the end, the backlog should be something around the current 777 backlog, a little bit bigger maybe. And a production rate of 10 frames a month should be fine for a backlog of 300-350 frames.

Quote:
I can see 7+7 being the long term plan for Boeing.

Building 168 frames a year is probably good to shrink the current backlog, but they will have to decrease it again later (unless Boeing could sell 168 frames a year but I don't see that happen). Increasing production is tricky business.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-13 12:21:57 and read 28771 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 111):
I think the problem is the tooling. I think workers have to do a lot of the work by hand, and there is still a lot of traveling work.

Travel work on currently-produced frames is said to be close to "norm" (you'll never have zero travel work) and we have seen some newer frames moving almost directly from the line to the paint hangar, implying they have little travel work.

I do not believe the suppliers are all able to deliver 10 shipsets per month so that's clearly slowing the production.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-13 12:26:28 and read 28767 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 116):
I do not believe the suppliers are all able to deliver 10 shipsets per month so that's clearly slowing the production.

Well, the suppliers are able to deliver 4 frames to Everett and yet Boeing need an extra assembly line? Why not producing those 4 frames on the main assembly line?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-13 12:31:38 and read 28813 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 117):
Well, the suppliers are able to deliver 4 frames to Everett and yet Boeing need an extra assembly line? Why not producing those 4 frames on the main assembly line?

The main line is producing four 787s at a time.   

The surge line can't complete a 787 as it only has three positions, so the fourth position on the main line has to interleave frames from the main line and the surge line.

And CHS was built due to the need to protect themselves against the IAM.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-13 12:39:02 and read 28799 times.

Quote:
The main line is producing four 787s at a time.

But not a month. In theory, the main line should be able to produce at least 7 frames a month. It was at 3.5 frames a month and Boeing activated the surge line to increase that number to 4 frames a month. So my question is, why can't the main line produce 4 frames a month on itself?

[Edited 2012-11-13 12:40:29]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-13 17:46:24 and read 28744 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 119):
But not a month. In theory, the main line should be able to produce at least 7 frames a month. It was at 3.5 frames a month and Boeing activated the surge line to increase that number to 4 frames a month. So my question is, why can't the main line produce 4 frames a month on itself?

Everybody seems to be mixing up two different issues. There is line capacity (how much a line can produce in theory) and line rate (how much it's producing right now). Boeing has been ramping the production rate for a couple of years and they'll keep ramping. The fact that the main line is currently producing whatever it's doing doesn't mean it can't do 7 per month. However, ramping production rates on aircraft final assembly lines has to be done VERY carefully. Boeing halted production completely on all lines for several months back in the late 90's by trying to ramp too fast and they never ever ever want to have to do that again.

Likewise, *given* that they've got two lines, they should load balance the lines (weighted by each line's capacity) so it's better to have both lines running at partial rate. They want each line (surge, main, and CHS) ramping up together; that is far more effective than running one line from zero to full capacity, then starting the second, etc.

Tom.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Capt747ret
Posted 2012-11-13 21:17:12 and read 28684 times.

I read this blog all the time but rarely post so I’ll catch up with this long series of my personal thoughts.

B has a large number of extremely smart people who really know the market and where it’s going. I would never sell them short. Anyone second guessing them will be second guessing themselves.

B is very deliberate about what they do. Some would say that they were too late with the MAX but time will tell and I think I would not bet against B on the MAX or any program. At the end of the day I think that B will prove themselves again.

The two 78 lines and the surge line I believe were created for more than what has been discussed. We only have the -8 and kind of soon the -9. They are still spooling up to what they have publically touted as 10 per month.

B also has stated that they have looked at their supply chain and have put a number on the board that is north of 10. Why not? Primary Everett and SC were created to accommodate 7 each or more per month. That is where B’s efficiency is.

B has stated that the surge line is temporary – maybe. This last word speaks volumes. It gives B huge flexibility and keeps A guessing.

It takes years to increase production and starting now gives them the opportunity to be ready as the 300 enters sunset and the needed increase for the -10. These both will place additional pressure on the 10/month rate

SC was a clean sheet of paper with huge expansion potential. They have also secured additional large acreage around their facility. B is not in the agricultural business.

It seems that the 78 will place the 300 into sunset and fade away the 350-800. Also, the -900 is slipping as is the -1000. B’s trump card on those two and especially the -1000 is the 777-8x&9x. They will have a common pilot rating with an endorsement on the license with the 78. Why buy an A and a B when the asymmetric training and operating costs eat into profitability.

Yes A is doing a revamped 300 which will have a measure of success especially with those carriers that already have this model in their inventory. But in a larger since, A is just pissing against the wind.

What ultimately turns out to be the 350 product line will be facing a better and more efficient B counterpart. A may deliver earlier but the long haul of development and production will favor the 78 & 777x lines.

Some have said that B has been reacting to A’s program. I think that B has been letting A get their program set in stone so as to deliver a far superior product. With the world the way it’s become and the cost of fuel high with a probable trending line only going up for the next few decades. B has done it right.

IMHO B has been looking at a 78 production rate north of 15 per month. What would you say would be the number of 787 orders in the first few months of 78-10 offers? There are now some 800 confirmed with a number yet to be posted like American Airlines. B has not posted their orders while negotiations were in progress with the Allied Pilots Association. Now with the new contract that has just happened, I believe that we will see these orders posted. I would like to read the details pertaining to the 78.

IMHO, the initial -10 orders would reach 3-400 with initial launch orders and then with a steady increase along with her sisters. We will be amazed to watch the order book pass 1500 and 2000. Again don’t sell B short. It takes years of planning to just say that you will go to higher numbers. B knows that the production must balance the orders.

No airline wants to be left out with older, less efficient and less pax desirable planes then your competition.

The AIM is trying to organize the SC workforce. If they do then I see the -10 being built on the surge line. B would build a couple of additional Dreamlifers of the -8F frame to accommodate the -9 and -10 sizes.

Given their “druthers” B would like to build the -10 in SC if nothing more than to save the transportation cost. B doesn’t have to make a commitment to the production location of the -10 for quite a while yet. This gives them time to observe the outcome of the next union election.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2012-11-13 21:52:04 and read 28677 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 120):
Likewise, *given* that they've got two lines, they should load balance the lines (weighted by each line's capacity) so it's better to have both lines running at partial rate.

I expect to see the "surge" line stick around for a while even after they get to 7 frames a month on the primary line in Washington. Its just way too much risk reduction to have that space with the tooling setup incase a frame on the main line goes sideways in its build. So depending on where the trouble frame is in the line you either start building frames on the surge or you wheel the trouble frame over there clearing the way for non-trouble frames to keep flowing.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: kanban
Posted 2012-11-13 22:43:22 and read 28700 times.

Quoting Capt747ret (Reply 121):
It takes years to increase production

To put that in perspective, some components from supplier start to delivery for installation are over 2 1/5 years in the making.. especially if forgings of unique aircraft quality and spec metal are involved. Cargo - pax door buildups generally are in the 1 1/2 year range. Wings are another pacing item.

So a rate increase seen today started over 2 years ago...

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: someone83
Posted 2012-11-13 23:53:45 and read 28707 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 120):
However, ramping production rates on aircraft final assembly lines has to be done VERY carefully

Yes, but still the main bottleneck is not the final assembly lines but the subsuppliers output

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-14 00:00:25 and read 28763 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 86):
Another LAN '87 is on the Flightline at Everett and should have its first flight soon.

Last night CC-BBC did a taxi test at KPAE: http://www.flickr.com/photos/microvolt/8183859393/in/photostream. Hopefully CC-BBC has its first flight later today.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-14 09:28:15 and read 28687 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 112):
Quoting ual747-600 (Reply 109):Does anyone know why UA N26906 is on the way to KBFI today?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26906
Test flight? Crew training? Some kind of ceremony at Boeing Field? It's not heading to PAE so I don't think something is wrong with the plane.

Actually if there is an "issue" after delivery it could be handled at BFI. They have people there qualified to do the work and available parking. That was UAL's last delivery which only had two flights on it. It doesn't appear to have left (FA) and I haven't heard about any big ceremony. ??????

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-14 09:34:36 and read 28939 times.

Quoting ual747-600 (Reply 109):
Does anyone know why UA N26906 is on the way to KBFI today?

It's a special Employee Appreciation flight. There is also a tour of the PAE factory, which is why the plane flew to Seattle.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-14 11:18:14 and read 28892 times.

First flight of ZA538 (for LAN) is scheduled for today at noon PT:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE538

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-14 11:21:13 and read 28896 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 120):
Everybody seems to be mixing up two different issues. There is line capacity (how much a line can produce in theory) and line rate (how much it's producing right now). Boeing has been ramping the production rate for a couple of years and they'll keep ramping. The fact that the main line is currently producing whatever it's doing doesn't mean it can't do 7 per month. However, ramping production rates on aircraft final assembly lines has to be done VERY carefully. Boeing halted production completely on all lines for several months back in the late 90's by trying to ramp too fast and they never ever ever want to have to do that again.

Likewise, *given* that they've got two lines, they should load balance the lines (weighted by each line's capacity) so it's better to have both lines running at partial rate. They want each line (surge, main, and CHS) ramping up together; that is far more effective than running one line from zero to full capacity, then starting the second, etc.

I was mixing things up indeed, thanks for the clarification.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-14 11:54:46 and read 28889 times.

It has been a bit slow on B1s lately? Sure many of the frames were Chinese and now stored, but there are a few better customers on flight line? I get the feeling pre flight and flight testing is not up to speed just yet.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-14 12:09:08 and read 28917 times.

Let's have a look:

- LN44 / LN50 / LN54 / LN57 and LN60 are ready for delivery but I have no idea why it's taking so long (except for Air India).
- LN55: should have been in the air by now?
- LN59, LN62 and LN72 are just outside, it's too soon for their B1 flight
- LN78: no rush as it is scheduled for a January delivery
- LN80: B1 flight today
- LN82 and LN83 inside the paint hangar so it's too soon for their B1 flight

No other frames are ready for a first flight.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: COEWR787
Posted 2012-11-14 12:31:44 and read 28901 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 100):
In other news, I just checked to see if UA had put their #2 (N26906) in service and saw that it has been doing IAH-SFO, IAH-EWR and IAH-ORD.

I was on it doing EWR - IAH - EWR over the weekend. Had two wonderful flights, though both were delayed due to servicing issues.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-14 12:39:58 and read 28882 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 131):

I guess being an observer one gets impatient on progress. There was some serious action at the end of October however.

Anyway it could be good to prepare frames in advance, gives a bit of slack in the future? 5 frames a month plus a backlog of reworked frames, the priority should be to shrink this backlog?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-14 12:47:55 and read 28907 times.

Quote:
5 frames a month plus a backlog of reworked frames, the priority should be to shrink this backlog?

Boeing is working on it. 9 frames are undergoing change incorporation: 5 inside the EMC, 1 inside the 40-24 building and 3 outside the EMC. But the output is slowing down because almost all late builds have finished change incorporation and there is more work to do on the early builds.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-14 12:54:34 and read 28907 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 130):
It has been a bit slow on B1s lately? Sure many of the frames were Chinese and now stored, but there are a few better customers on flight line? I get the feeling pre flight and flight testing is not up to speed just yet.

The paperwork for preflight and in flight checks was set prior to certification. The personnel know what to do and how to do it. Any major delays in those two areas are due to the airplane not being "ready to fly". When the flight or ground tests fail it takes time to fix the problem ie., a delay. In the flight regime some airplanes recently have needed only two flights prior to delivery--LOT ZA270 & UAL ZA290--while others have taken considerably more--ETH ZA261 has flown 8 times so far. The production flight test crew knows what they're doing, sometimes the airplane just doesn't "behave". In the factory the systems are all tested individually but until you roll it out the door and test the "whole" airplane on the ground and inflight you never know what you are going to get. Most issues are minor it just takes time to fix them. Some airplanes are just built better than others.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-14 13:01:50 and read 28909 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 110):
LN 59 is JA817A.

@NYC777

Now LN59 is outside, do you know which frame has taken its place in Bay D?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-14 13:13:36 and read 28920 times.

Looks like BOE538 has an issue and is returning to PAE after only 20 minutes in the air.

[Edited 2012-11-14 13:15:33]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-14 13:14:29 and read 28915 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 136):
Now LN59 is outside, do you know which frame has taken its place in Bay D?

Don't know yet.

[Edited 2012-11-14 13:15:03]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-14 13:20:51 and read 28930 times.

Any airlines that have the "terrible teens" known yet? Will ANA take some more of the early ones?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-14 13:38:21 and read 28934 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 136):
do you know which frame has taken its place in Bay D?

LN 21 is in Bay D.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-14 13:48:41 and read 28930 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 140):

LN 21 is in Bay D.

So Boeing moved LN21 from 40-24 to the EMC. Interesting.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-14 13:56:20 and read 28953 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 141):
So Boeing moved LN21 from 40-24 to the EMC. Interesting.

Not really. It was in 40-24 for a long time undergoing change incorporation but I don't think it can complete change incorporation there so they had to trasfer it to EMC to finish it off. They also want to make sure the space is available for use by the surge line as needed. I don't really expect any other change incorporation activities to take place in 40-24.

[Edited 2012-11-14 14:04:40]

[Edited 2012-11-14 14:23:38]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: dynamicsguy
Posted 2012-11-14 23:31:48 and read 28870 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 131):
- LN44 / LN50 / LN54 / LN57 and LN60 are ready for delivery

How do you define "ready for delivery"? Some of those are close and some aren't.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 131):
No other frames are ready for a first flight.

Some are closer than you think.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: mad99
Posted 2012-11-15 00:53:57 and read 28833 times.

I know, i'm lazy

Can someone please tell be when the first skyteam airline will get the 787?
I mostly fly af klm but would use others if its on the 787

thanks again

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-15 01:16:37 and read 28890 times.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 144):

I guess now with China Southerns frames stored until CAAC will sort the certification issue Aeromexico/LN96 could be first to get the 787, their first frame should load into the assembly line before the end of this year. Maybe for a Jan-Feb delivery? At least 4 weeks for FAL and then another 4 or 5 weeks until its ready to deliver. Probably earliest around end of January or more likely February.

Check the 787 blog, it lists all frames up to LN100, no dates however but I think new frames get loaded 1 time a week so parts should arrive next week and FAL start the week after that. ILFC should not be a problem with finances.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: mad99
Posted 2012-11-15 05:07:02 and read 28843 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 145):
Check the 787 blog

Thanks

Can you provide a link for the blog?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: petera380
Posted 2012-11-15 05:46:01 and read 28881 times.

The blog can be found at:

http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: starrion
Posted 2012-11-15 09:17:49 and read 28870 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 145):
until CAAC will sort the certification issue

Is CAAC "sorting" the certification issue or is it on hold for political reasons? I think Boeing is storing the chinese frames with the expectation that they will be there for a good long time.

In a related question, how much distruption would it be for Boring to pull the subsequent frames out of the firing order under the cert issue is taken up?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-11-15 13:24:28 and read 28872 times.

Quoting starrion (Reply 148):
In a related question, how much distruption would it be for Boring to pull the subsequent frames out of the firing order under the cert issue is taken up?

It depends how far out the frames you want to pull out are. Firing orders typically aren't nailed down until about 6 months ahead so anything out beyond that is probably no big deal. Within that window it would depend if you can pull the variable components (interiors, BFE, etc.) forward and how much of the customer engineering is complete.

Tom.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-16 00:34:57 and read 28797 times.

LN45 / ZA285 finally finished change incorporation. This is the first UA 787 frame.

[Edited 2012-11-16 00:35:19]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-16 06:59:08 and read 28824 times.

As always, thank you to All Things 787 (NYC777) and others for the information that is summarized here. For more specific information on the aircraft in production, I recommend going to http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

DELIVERED TO DATE: 35 Aircraft to 8 Airlines

DELIVERIES PRIOR TO NOVEMBER
NH-16; JL-6; AI-3; ET-3; LA-2; UA–2; QR-1

NOVEMBER DELIVERIES TO DATE
L/N 64 - A7-BCL – 11/06/2012- QR #2
L/N 61 - SP-LRA - 11/09/2012 - LO #1

NEXT IN LINE FOR DELIVERY Tentative - Subject to Change
L/N 57 - A7-BCA – 11/xx/2012 - QR #3
L/N 44 - ET-AOP - 11/xx/2012 - ET #4
L/N 50 - N20902 - 11/xx/2012 - UA #3
L/N 80 - CC-BBC - 12/xx/2012 - LA #3
L/N 55 - N26905 – 12/xx/2012 - UA #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 62 - A7-BCK - 12/xx/2012 - QR #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 59 - JA817A - 12/xx/2012 - NH #17 Awaiting first flight
L/N 83 - JA818A - 12/xx/2012 - NH #18 Awaiting first flight
L/N 45 - N26901 – 12/xx/2012 – UA #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 82 - A7-BC? – 12/xx/2012 - QR #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 78 - SP-LRB – 1/xx/2013 - LO #2 Awaiting first flight

In addition, there are three airlines that aren’t accepting deliveries of completed aircraft due to financing or political/certification issues: 4 for AI; 3 for CZ; & 2 for HU.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-16 10:42:59 and read 29126 times.

Looks like ZA261 has been delivered today. It's supposed to leave from Everett tonight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ETH9201

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-16 10:49:15 and read 29102 times.

LAN's third 787 CC-BBC is scheduled for its B1 flight today:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE538

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-16 12:28:46 and read 29110 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 152):
Looks like ZA261 has been delivered today. It's supposed to leave from Everett tonight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/E...H9201

About time, only 8 flights to get it ready to ship.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 153):
LAN's third 787 CC-BBC is scheduled for its B1 flight today:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE538

Technically classified a B-2 but it will be doing the full B-1 profile.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-16 14:03:11 and read 29093 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 154):
Technically classified a B-2 but it will be doing the full B-1 profile.

Technically it is a second flight not a B-2 flight as it never completed the B-1 test profile.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2012-11-17 09:23:31 and read 29009 times.

Delivery of SP-LRB is apparently scheduled for the 5th of January, 2013.

Source, in Polish - interview with LO's operations management team member

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-18 02:30:26 and read 28931 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 152):

Looks like ZA261 has been delivered today. It's supposed to leave from Everett tonight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/E...H9201
Quote:
About time, only 8 flights to get it ready to ship.

ZA261 is visible in a flightline video, taken on November 15. The one on flightaware must have been another frame?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nJEgBUsMjEk

[Edited 2012-11-18 02:31:06]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-20 01:04:22 and read 28849 times.

Hainan Airlines expects 787 delivery to be delayed to 2Q2013.

http://centreforaviation.com/news/ha...ery-to-be-delayed-to-2q2013-188654

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: starrion
Posted 2012-11-20 05:58:09 and read 28790 times.

FTA: HNA Group chairman Chen Feng previously said the carrier may change its 787 order to the 747-8 aircraft.

Wow. Now that some change incorporation. Exactly how previously?

So if both carriers frames are going to be sitting there until March, it makes sense that Boeing is taping them up. If they have the intervening months to finish all the tasks, that should be a fair little fleet to fly out once the paperwork is finished.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: frigatebird
Posted 2012-11-20 07:53:17 and read 28761 times.

Quoting starrion (Reply 159):
FTA: HNA Group chairman Chen Feng previously said the carrier may change its 787 order to the 747-8 aircraft.

Wow. Now that some change incorporation. Exactly how previously?

Well, they were said to be behind a MoU for 15 748i's at Le Bourget last year. They did order 10 A380s, which they now apparently want to cancel. So, perhaps 748i's instead of 787s and A350s instead of A380s?    I doubt Airbus will allow this just like that...   

Quoting starrion (Reply 159):
So if both carriers frames are going to be sitting there until March, it makes sense that Boeing is taping them up.

If it is indeed gonna be Q2, May-June will be more likely.

Too bad for those almost finished 787s, I´ve noticed Charleston has been allocated mostly AI, CZ and Hainan 787s, with the slower pace there this seems a smart move. Hope they have enough parking space there though...

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: flightsimer
Posted 2012-11-20 10:23:43 and read 28715 times.

Quoting starrion (Reply 159):

Well that would be nice! 15 from their MOU and then a nice top off order to go along... That would be one 787 cancelation I would endorse!

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-20 11:25:14 and read 28695 times.

Getting information that LN 60 will be delivered to Air India towards the end of next week at the latest.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2012-11-21 01:29:51 and read 28376 times.

Matt Cawby tweeted a while ago that ET-AOP cancelled their take off clearance for their delivery flight, anyone know why?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-21 01:46:46 and read 28317 times.

I have no idea but ET-AOP is in the air now.

http://nl.flightaware.com/live/fligh...1/history/20121121/0200Z/KPAE/HAAB

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-21 10:49:35 and read 27702 times.

As well as ETH ZA261 (44) looks like QTR ZA460 (57) is heading south later today, so add that to the delivery list.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/QTR999

And two B-1's are trying to get airborne today UAL ZA289 (55) which didn't make it yesterday and QTR ZA462 (62).

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE289

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE462

The holiday rush is on.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: catdaddy63
Posted 2012-11-21 10:50:41 and read 27703 times.

Two B1 flights scheduled for this afternoon. ZA462 for QR, and ZA289 for UA.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-21 11:04:30 and read 27671 times.

The weather has been craptastic all week - winds and heavy rains - so hopefully PAE is above the B1 minimums so the birds can get up.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2012-11-21 11:14:24 and read 27634 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 164):
I have no idea but ET-AOP is in the air now.

http://nl.flightaware.com/live/fligh.../HAAB

By chance, I saw it on FR24 on my phone. However, it shows a LGG (Liege) stopover which does not seem to be correct. Anyone knows why? There is a 777F (ET3715) that did LGG-ADD and is a few minutes ahead of ET-AOP on teh FR24 radar view...

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-21 11:33:59 and read 27597 times.

How does ET find its 787s I read about AI being very displeased with it. But Indians must be a hard crowd to satisfy, the posters here anyway.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: kanban
Posted 2012-11-21 11:44:49 and read 27557 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 169):
But Indians must be a hard crowd to satisfy, the posters here anyway.

don't take it out on the posters.. they're mostly reporting some nameless bureaucrat about unconfirmed gripes with little or no actual substance.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-21 11:46:26 and read 27566 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 169):
How does ET find its 787s?

Probably too early to tell.



Quoting sweair (Reply 169):
I read about AI being very displeased with it.

That's news to me.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-21 11:49:23 and read 27554 times.

Another UA delivery flight?

http://nl.flightaware.com/live/fligh...2/history/20121121/2000Z/KPAE/KLAX

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-21 12:16:45 and read 27473 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 172):
Another UA delivery flight?

http://nl.flightaware.com/live/fligh.../KLAX

Yep, looks like UAL ZA286 (50) will be heading out and LAN ZA538 (80) should be off on its C-1 soon.


http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE538


Two B-1's, three deliveries and a C-1, guess the wx wasn't as big an issue as some people keep wanting to make it.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: aeroblogger
Posted 2012-11-21 14:11:02 and read 27205 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 169):
I read about AI being very displeased with it

Source please?

AI is dealing with normal teething issues of a new fleet to be sure, but the economics of the aircraft speak for themselves...

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-21 17:00:06 and read 26910 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 173):

Yep, looks like UAL ZA286 (50) will be heading out and LAN ZA538 (80) should be off on its C-1 soon.


http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE538


Two B-1's, three deliveries and a C-1, guess the wx wasn't as big an issue as some people keep wanting to make it.

ZA538 hasn't even done it's B-2 flight. It had an abortive B-1 then flew a B-1 profile on its second flight and has yet to fly a B-2 before it can fly a C-1 assuming there are no issues with the B-2 flight

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2012-11-21 17:29:32 and read 26869 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 175):
Two B-1's, three deliveries and a C-1, guess the wx wasn't as big an issue as some people keep wanting to make it.

Think that alone deserves a blog update. Don't you agree?  

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-21 17:45:14 and read 27204 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 175):
ZA538 hasn't even done it's B-2 flight. It had an abortive B-1 then flew a B-1 profile on its second flight and has yet to fly a B-2 before it can fly a C-1 assuming there are no issues with the B-2 flight

First let's get our nomenclature correct here--the first production flight of a Boeing airplane is a B-1 (whether it completes the full B-1 profile or not), the second flight is a B-2 (whether its up and down to correct B-1 squawks or a full B-1 profile because it didn't complete the B-1 flight). The flight today (that I guess never made into the air) filed for what appeared to be a full profile which generally doesn't occur on subsequent flights except for the C-1. In the words of T. E. Lawrence "nothing is written" and especially the requirement for a "B-2" flight after every "B-1" flight.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-21 18:43:00 and read 27066 times.

Today's flight, if it occurred, wasn't going to be a customer test flight flown by customer pilots. Boeing would still need to fly a B-2 profile before moving on to customer flights assuming there aren't any issues that need to be resolved and subsequent Boeing test flights flown to validate fixes.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-21 19:56:42 and read 27000 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 178):
Today's flight, if it occurred, wasn't going to be a customer test flight flown by customer pilots. Boeing would still need to fly a B-2 profile before moving on to customer flights assuming there aren't any issues that need to be resolved and subsequent Boeing test flights flown to validate fixes.

I guess you need to tell Boeing that they need to recall QTR ZA463 (64), ANA ZA511 (63), LOT ZA270 (61), UAL ZA290 (77) and UAL ZA 286 (50) as they all flew only the B-1 before putting the customer on board for the C-1. Boeing could legally as far as the FAA is concerned and with customer agreement, deliver any airplane after a successful B-1 flight only.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 175):
Yep, looks like UAL ZA286 (50) will be heading out and LAN ZA538 (80) should be off on its C-1 soon.

Two B-1's, three deliveries and a C-1, guess the wx wasn't as big an issue as some people keep wanting to make it.

I guess flight plans aren't worth the paper they're printed on--only one B-1, two deliveries

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-21 20:03:15 and read 26949 times.

Dude, what's with your attitude?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-11-22 00:24:26 and read 26642 times.

LANs frame never flew so it was a B0 flight  

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-22 02:34:20 and read 26527 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 165):
The holiday rush is on.

The engines of another 2 frames were started for the first time.

LN45 / ZA285:
http://paineairport.com/kpae5639.htm
http://paineairport.com/kpae5640.htm

LN59 / ZA510:
http://paineairport.com/kpae5638.htm

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: dkny
Posted 2012-11-22 03:26:16 and read 26500 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 169):

I am sure ET is happy with the 787. They have been sending it on long missions to IAD and YYZ. It has even done ADD-YYZ non stop a couple of times.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-22 10:19:05 and read 26056 times.

QTR ZA460 (77) finally off and on its way to VCV

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/QTR999

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-22 11:01:02 and read 25943 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 165):
QTR ZA462 (62)
Quoting catdaddy63 (Reply 166):
ZA462 for QR,

Looks like L/N 62 for QR never flew, is that correct?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-22 11:16:02 and read 25921 times.

Correct, probably will fly tomorrow

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: mham001
Posted 2012-11-22 11:33:23 and read 25907 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 180):
Dude, what's with your attitude?

Maybe that you directly contradicted his (apparent) professional knowledge, in which it appears he is absolutely correct. I know I was getting confused reading it all. The proper thing to do would be to acknowledge the mistake and move on.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-23 09:25:03 and read 25076 times.

Looks like LAN ZA538 (80) is up on its C-1 (???).


http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE538

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: starrion
Posted 2012-11-23 11:07:46 and read 24858 times.

Boeing has gotten a nice bump recently from the rework frame deliveries.

It looks like that will be coming to an end soon. There are only five of the later build frames (other than air india and the chinese) left to deliver. After that everything is going to have to come from the teens and twenties which have months of work per frame. I recall from a thread that each of the early build frames will need five months of time at the EMC before beinag able to be delivered?

If that is the case then the 2013 deliveries will mostly be new build with 1 or 2 units of rework planes per month...

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-23 11:23:37 and read 24812 times.

Boeing has gotten a nice bump recently from the rework frame deliveries.

It looks like that will be coming to an end soon. There are only five of the later build frames (other than air india and the chinese) left to deliver. After that everything is going to have to come from the teens and twenties which have months of work per frame. I recall from a thread that each of the early build frames will need five months of time at the EMC before beinag able to be delivered?

If that is the case then the 2013 deliveries will mostly be new build with 1 or 2 units of rework planes per month...

Quoting starrion (Reply 189):

Yes I think that sounds about right but it also depends on when the customers want them and if they're going to be delivered to the original customers. Right now my sources are telling me that they're still allocated to the carriers listed on my tables.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-23 12:52:55 and read 24586 times.

ZA462 has a first flight in about 20 minutes.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE462

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-23 14:06:31 and read 24416 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 191):
ZA462 has a first flight in about 20 minutes.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE462




Looks like they're waiting on the wx. Ceiling has been below B-1 minimums for the last several hours.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-11-24 03:16:49 and read 23727 times.

Qatar 2nd 787 (A7-BCL) is on its way to DOH (delivery flight from VCV) http://www.flightradar24.com/QTR3787

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Rheinbote
Posted 2012-11-24 03:36:20 and read 23703 times.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 107):
We won't know what the true output of each assembly line is until they increase above 10 frames a year. Just because they have decided to use three lines instead of one for the 10/month,

The 'surge line' in 40-24 is soon going to be turned into a dedicated 787-9 final assembly line, starting with LN126.

Quoting starrion (Reply 148):
Is CAAC "sorting" the certification issue or is it on hold for political reasons? I think Boeing is storing the chinese frames with the expectation that they will be there for a good long time.

Word is that China holds Boeing's 787s hostage over FAA refusal to certify the AVIC ARJ21...

[Edited 2012-11-24 03:36:43]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-24 04:51:07 and read 23606 times.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 194):
Word is that China holds Boeing's 787s hostage over FAA refusal to certify the AVIC ARJ21...

As of last week, COMAC announced another major EIS delay for the ARJ21 because of “inexperience in certification in terms of methods and infrastructure,” according to COMAC VP Luo Ronghuai.

The ARJ21 has only completed about 80% of the ground tests required for CAAC certification and is just now starting fatigue testing. They have also completed some 2800 flight hours. CAAC certification is not expected before 1H 2013 and first deliveries are not planned until 2014.

As for the FAA, they have finished training pilots, and they will come to China at the end of November to test the ARJ21. And during tests of the ARJ21, China had to turn to foreign countries for help on a number of issues, including its resistance to electromagnetic radiation, protection against lightning and electromagnetic compatibility.

So there are no grounds for China to hold up the 787's certification because of the ARJ21, but then this is China, so...

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/745750.shtml
http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...c-delays-arj21-delivery-again-1121
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-majority-of-ground-tests-379282/

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-24 06:56:55 and read 23356 times.

I assume that since the B-1 for L/N 62 keeps getting postponed, that the weather isn't great as predicted.

As always, thank you to All Things 787 (NYC777) and others for the information that is summarized here. For more specific information on the aircraft in production, I recommend going to http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

DELIVERED TO DATE: 38 Aircraft to 8 Airlines

DELIVERIES PRIOR TO NOVEMBER
NH-16; JL-6; AI-3; ET-3; LA-2; UA–2; QR-1

NOVEMBER DELIVERIES TO DATE
L/N 64 - A7-BCL – 11/06/2012- QR #2
L/N 61 - SP-LRA - 11/09/2012 - LO #1
L/N 44 - ET-AOP - 11/19/2012 - ET #4
L/N 57 - A7-BCA – 11/20/2012 - QR #3
L/N 50 - N20902 - 11/20/2012 - UA #3

NEXT IN LINE FOR DELIVERY Tentative - Subject to Change
L/N 80 - CC-BBC - xx/xx/2012 - LA #3
L/N 55 - N26905 – 12/xx/2012 - UA #4
L/N 62 - A7-BCK - 12/xx/2012 - QR #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 59 - JA817A - 12/xx/2012 - NH #17 Awaiting first flight
L/N 83 - JA818A - 12/xx/2012 - NH #18 Awaiting first flight
L/N 45 - N26901 – 12/xx/2012 – UA #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 82 - A7-BCC – 12/xx/2012 - QR #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 78 - SP-LRB – 1/xx/2013 - LO #2 Awaiting first flight
L/N 52 - N26903 – 1/xx/2013 – UA #6 Awaiting first flight
L/N 86 – SP-LRC – 1/xx/2013 – LO #3 Awaiting first flight

In addition, there are three airlines that aren’t accepting deliveries of completed aircraft due to financing or political/certification issues: 4 for AI; 2 for CZ; & 2 for HU.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-24 09:54:00 and read 23062 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 196):
I assume that since the B-1 for L/N 62 keeps getting postponed, that the weather isn't great as predicted.

Yesterday was ugly all day but the sun was out this morning -- QTR ZA462 (62) got airborne about an hour ago.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE462

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-24 11:34:18 and read 22882 times.

BOE239 filed what appears to be a C-2 flight

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE239

[Edited 2012-11-24 11:35:23]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Rheinbote
Posted 2012-11-24 14:46:34 and read 22608 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 195):
So there are no grounds for China to hold up the 787's certification because of the ARJ21

Stitch, you may find that press statements by the Chinese are quite inconsistent. Let us generously assume that this is due to a general lack of PR communication skills.  

March 2012:
"[COMAC President Jin Zhuanglong] added that COMAC's jet liner ARJ21-700 has passed all [...] fatigue tests required for license application [...]"
http://www.ecns.cn/cns-wire/2012/03-07/9660.shtml

All that is needed may just be a token type certificate so that the project can be terminated or re-oriented without losing face.

But this is a 787 trhead, so let's carry on with the Dreamliner  

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-26 14:34:25 and read 21117 times.

Just put a new 787 update summarizing the 787 update call from this afternoon.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: ETinCaribe
Posted 2012-11-26 17:52:42 and read 20715 times.

Quoting dkny (Reply 183):
I am sure ET is happy with the 787. They have been sending it on long missions to IAD and YYZ. It has even done ADD-YYZ non stop a couple of times.

I don't know for sure but I would think that they are fairly happy with it. And whatever issues they may have, we would not know about them as they will not publicize it; very professional bunch down in ADD, IMHO.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Capt747ret
Posted 2012-11-26 20:41:51 and read 20786 times.

Concerning the 787-10; IMHO, yes it will be offered and built. That is a no brainer. When? I’ve heard soon, next few days and in a few weeks. I believe it will officially happen between the 7th and the 9th of January.

Why? Just look at the calendar. It’s the Holidays and B will get less press. The week after New Year’s is ripe for it. Earlier in the week yields more business days to create excitement and for those reporters that know nothing about aviation to suddenly become experts and put pen to paper.

In the meantime, B is refining the -10 and lining up launch customers. They want the publicity just as much as B does, I would too.

Neither A nor B can compete with Santa. All eyes are also focused on 1/1/13. Just let the Rose Bowl and all else happen, then B will be in the lime-light.

Additionally, there probably will be a large number of new orders for the -10. They will be figured into the ’13 count. What a great way for B to start the New Year!

It all has to do with timing and B knows it well. In the meantime enjoy the Holidays and its tangential sporting events. The -10 will have its day and it will be huge. Just think of the number of biz Jets in town for the launch!

Would anyone venture a guess on the number of new orders that B will announce on that day? British Airways, Lufthansa, Singapore, ILFC, Emirates, Who else? What do you think? Will we see any new customers?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Ruscoe
Posted 2012-11-27 00:44:03 and read 20492 times.

Good post.

I love your positive confidence, and I agree the 10 will happen.

I am wondering though if Boeing might think they can maximise sales by waiting a bit, otherwise I think a lot of the 10 sales might be conversions. Just a thought.

Ruscoe

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: parapente
Posted 2012-11-27 03:32:03 and read 20300 times.

787 deliveries........

"Boeing has already delivered 35 787s through the first 11 months of the year, meeting the low-end of the company's guidance of 35 to 42 aircraft deliveries in 2012." Woweee

You mean a whole 35 aircraft - oh and just the other 850 to go then....(assuming no new orders or option take up's - there will be many I assure you)


A -10? Well Boeing has spoken.

"The market will tell us really when that is, but really we're looking at the back end of this decade," Loftis says.

So a first aircraft EIS 2020/1? I would say yes - at the earliest. At least by then they will have worked out how to make this plane in (real) numbers.

So Airbus has approx 8 (10?) years to figure out an alternative cos sure as hell the 358 ain't it. But the "9" is not far off for those wanting decent range/ payload. But fundamentally as stated by others in a different forum.The min they will need to do is create a 787 sized wing for the 350 and hope that some fancy new GTF engine is on the blocks to give them a chance - other wise they will be out of the 330 double segment.(in 10 yeras time).

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: flightsimer
Posted 2012-11-27 06:02:33 and read 20027 times.

Quoting parapente (Reply 204):

They said "this decade", at the latest, that would be 2019, 6 years max, not 8-10. Since its a simple stretch, I can see it being moved up to the 2016-2017 time frame due to costumer demand.

[Edited 2012-11-27 06:05:14]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-11-27 07:26:52 and read 19845 times.

If the Asian Aerospace show was still running, I'd have said that might have been a logical launch place for the 787-10 if they were securing orders from airlines like SQ and CX.

I guess they could wait for Le Bourget.

Or wait for Airbus Commercial to announce their 2012 results in late January / early February.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Mayohoo
Posted 2012-11-27 08:09:39 and read 19701 times.

IF B achieves its 10/m by the end of 2013, then by end of 2019 it will have burned through the 850 orders it has currently.
2011-12= 45
2013 at 5/m and 7/m= 72
2014=120
2015=120
2016=120
2017=120
2018=120
2019=120
Plus 25 reworked aircraft by 2015

Total 862

One would presume that they would like to have 3-4 years backlog at any one time so they should have room for perhaps 360-480 787s to sell through 2019. They could probably fit the -10 into one of the 3 lines (an 8, a 9 and a 10 line?)

Now if they go to 12 or 14 a month...  

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-27 10:14:52 and read 19424 times.

I just put up a new blog post with the updated firing order for LN 101 to LN 115.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2012-11-27 12:41:05 and read 19141 times.

Any chances for any more deliveries this month?   

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-11-27 19:42:41 and read 18697 times.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 209):

I think we might see L/N 80 - CC-BBC - LA #3 delivered in the next few days

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-11-27 20:39:01 and read 18607 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 210):
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 209):

I think we might see L/N 80 - CC-BBC - LA #3 delivered in the next few days

That is correct. The fourth 787 for LAN is L/N 113 CC-BBD and will be assembled in Charleston. On a side note, LAN expects to receive its first B-787-9 during 2014.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-28 06:08:53 and read 18123 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 211):
That is correct. The fourth 787 for LAN is L/N 113 CC-BBD and will be assembled in Charleston. On a side note, LAN expects to receive its first B-787-9 during 2014.

Can you confirm that ZA538 (LN 80) will be delivered this month? right now it's in the Everett paint hangar though I don't know why.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: xaapb
Posted 2012-11-28 07:33:53 and read 17980 times.

Good morning

Anyone knows why now LN96 will go for TUI Travel (Thomson)? LN96 was supposed to be ILFC / Aeromexico and it appears that LN115 will be the first for ILFC/ Aeromexico.

Greetings.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-28 07:39:16 and read 17964 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 212):
Can you confirm that ZA538 (LN 80) will be delivered this month? right now it's in the Everett paint hangar though I don't know why.

There might have been some cuetomer issues with the paint and due to the tight scheduling of the paint hangar this may have been the only opprotunity to correct them.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: starrion
Posted 2012-11-28 07:45:30 and read 17956 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 210):
I think we might see L/N 80 - CC-BBC - LA #3 delivered in the next few days

I presume that means that Air India got an insufficient funds notice from the bank again?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-28 07:57:09 and read 17953 times.

Quoting starrion (Reply 215):
I presume that means that Air India got an insufficient funds notice from the bank again?

According to my source, one AI 787 is to be delivered by the end of this month. This info was as of last week but with AI who knows.

Quoting xaapb (Reply 213):
Anyone knows why now LN96 will go for TUI Travel (Thomson)? LN96 was supposed to be ILFC / Aeromexico and it appears that LN115 will be the first for ILFC/ Aeromexico.

There are still occaisional re-allocation of frames depending on customer needs even at this late stage.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: xaapb
Posted 2012-11-28 08:06:07 and read 17908 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 216):
There are still occaisional re-allocation of frames depending on customer needs even at this late stage.

I see, well thats sad, we were expecting the first 787 for sometime between March or April, I guess this will pushback the date maybe untill July.

Thanks NYC777.

Greetings.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-28 08:23:29 and read 17855 times.

Quoting xaapb (Reply 217):
I see, well thats sad, we were expecting the first 787 for sometime between March or April, I guess this will pushback the date maybe untill July.

LN 115 should deliver in May. Certainly not July.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: aeroblogger
Posted 2012-11-28 12:12:53 and read 17465 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 216):
According to my source, one AI 787 is to be delivered by the end of this month. This info was as of last week but with AI who knows.


We're unlikely to see an AI delivery this week.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-28 15:04:26 and read 17156 times.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 219):
We're unlikely to see an AI delivery this week.

That figures  

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-29 09:17:27 and read 16483 times.

Matt Cawby is reporting that ZA382 (LN43, B-2727) is out of the South Ramp storage and is at the fuel dock. I'm not sure what this means but I'm going out on the a limb and saying that this is preparation to resume pre-delivery tests and actually deliver the aircraft to China Southern. Can anyone corroborate? Also Boeing may be planning to fly the aircraft to a long term storage facility like Marana or Victorville.

[Edited 2012-11-29 09:32:32]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-11-29 11:42:33 and read 16164 times.

Looks like ZA538 (LN 80, CC-BBC) will be flying a customer flight tohis afternoon. First 787 activity since the past weekend.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE538

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-11-29 11:56:57 and read 16078 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 222):
Looks like ZA538 (LN 80, CC-BBC) will be flying a customer flight tohis afternoon. First 787 activity since the past weekend.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE538

C-2

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2012-11-29 12:43:01 and read 15979 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 221):
Also Boeing may be planning to fly the aircraft to a long term storage facility like Marana or Victorville.

If it winters at PAE without protection, it will probably have moss growing on it and mildew stains come spring  

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Capt747ret
Posted 2012-11-29 18:12:45 and read 15478 times.

At least we will know which way North is!

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: ER757
Posted 2012-11-30 09:18:55 and read 14839 times.

Quoting Capt747ret (Reply 225):
At least we will know which way North is!

  
Good one, but if you used that old nugget while hiking in the Cascades or Olympics, you'd quickly discover EVERY direction is north......

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-01 10:52:25 and read 14330 times.

ZA271 (LN 80, SP-LRB) is off on its B-1 flight today.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE271

And ZA462 (LN 62, A7-BCK) is supposed to have it's B-2 flight later this afternoon

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE462/

[Edited 2012-12-01 11:48:50]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-12-01 17:16:40 and read 13879 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 212):
Can you confirm that ZA538 (LN 80) will be delivered this month? right now it's in the Everett paint hangar though I don't know why.

CC-BBC was expected to be delivered to LAN by the end of November. However, CC-BBC is still at KPAE:
http://paineairport.com/kpae5677.htm

Hopefully CC-BBC will be delivered to LAN next week so that the SCL-LAX route can operate with B-787 within the next few weeks. Boeing just continue to deliver brand new B-767-316ERs to LAN!   

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: United787
Posted 2012-12-02 13:52:04 and read 13091 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 227):
ZA271 (LN 80, SP-LRB) is off on its B-1 flight today.

Don't you mean LN 78?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-02 16:45:33 and read 12794 times.

Quoting United787 (Reply 229):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 227):ZA271 (LN 80, SP-LRB) is off on its B-1 flight today.
Don't you mean LN 78?

Yes

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-03 12:04:36 and read 12085 times.

Boeing is plannig to fly ZA464 (LN 82, A7-BCC) on its B-1 flight today:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE464

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-03 12:38:33 and read 11981 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 231):
Boeing is plannig to fly ZA464 (LN 82, A7-BCC) on its B-1 flight today:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE464

Wx was questionable but they're airborne now. If it "flies straight" we should have two QTR (ZA462 & ZA464) customer flights in the next week or so with delivery before the end of the month.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: starrion
Posted 2012-12-03 13:03:43 and read 11897 times.

Alex, I'll take what is

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 221):
Also Boeing may be planning to fly the aircraft to a long term storage facility like Marana or Victorville.
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 232):
Wx was questionable but they're airborne now. If it "flies straight" we should have two QTR (ZA462 & ZA464) customer flights in the next week or so with delivery before the end of the month.

How many frames can they push through the IFE process at once? Will QTR accept the frames before they have a place to get the work done?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-03 15:38:41 and read 11600 times.

Quoting starrion (Reply 233):
How many frames can they push through the IFE process at once? Will QTR accept the frames before they have a place to get the work done?

Qatar has been accepting airfrmes and sending them down to Victorville one at a time. Though it might be etnirely plausible that they have to do this only for the first few frames but I'm not sure when that's going to be of if it'll happen. Just so weird that they have to ferry them down to VCV for this work and not have it down in Everett.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-04 10:33:07 and read 10890 times.

Boeing is planning another B-1 flight today. This time for ZA510 (LN 59, JA817A) for ANA. It was supposed to earlier but is delayed until 4:10pm local time due to low ceilings. Hopefully it should get off today.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE510

ZA239 (LN 60, VT-ANK) made its 6th flight today. I don't know if this is preparation for delivery or not. Also I've been told that this plane will be the next to deliver even though ZA238 (LN 54, VT-ANJ) hasn't been delivered and is still on the CHS flightline. I don't know why the delivery positions have been switched even though it appears that both aircraft are ready to be delivered to Air India.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE239

Lastly, it appears that ZA271 (LN 78, SP-LRB) is making its B-2 flight this afternoon.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE271

[Edited 2012-12-04 10:34:49]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-04 11:51:37 and read 10686 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 235):
Boeing is planning another B-1 flight today. This time for ZA510 (LN 59, JA817A) for ANA. It was supposed to earlier but is delayed until 4:10pm local time due to low ceilings. Hopefully it should get off today.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE510

Ceilings have been above B-1 minimums for takeoff all day. Looks like its an airplane issue, maybe tomorrow. A 1610 local takeoff would be too late for a B-1 due to night time considerations.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-04 12:29:06 and read 10570 times.

ZA510 now scheduled for a B-1 at 1PM local time today:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE510

[Edited 2012-12-04 13:36:03]

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-04 12:58:57 and read 10456 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 237):
ZA520 now scheduled for a B-1 at 1PM local time today:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE510

That was a quick fix.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: aeroblogger
Posted 2012-12-05 13:10:48 and read 9699 times.

AI is considering deferring all deliveries until Boeing comes out with a permanent solution to the electrical issues. The current timeframe which Boeing has predicted for this solution to come out is 2-3 months. Until then, aircraft in the current fleet will continue operations with an interim solution suggested by Boeing.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: mham001
Posted 2012-12-05 13:16:59 and read 9660 times.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 239):
AI is considering deferring all deliveries until Boeing comes out with a permanent solution to the electrical issues. The current timeframe which Boeing has predicted for this solution to come out is 2-3 months. Until then, aircraft in the current fleet will continue operations with an interim solution suggested by Boeing.

What are these electrical issues?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-12-05 13:28:22 and read 9605 times.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 240):
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 239):AI is considering deferring all deliveries until Boeing comes out with a permanent solution to the electrical issues. The current timeframe which Boeing has predicted for this solution to come out is 2-3 months. Until then, aircraft in the current fleet will continue operations with an interim solution suggested by Boeing.
What are these electrical issues?

The sarcastic side of me envisions us a year from now with AI once again deferring deliveries until the toilet flushes quieter, but the serious side of me says that if the plane didn't have teething or other issues that AI wouldn't be able to defer to begin with.

So, I too am interested in what the electrical issues are that they are referring to, but I also grant that if they exist that there's no reason they should have to take delivery until they are solved.

-Dave

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-05 13:35:50 and read 9585 times.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 239):
AI is considering deferring all deliveries until Boeing comes out with a permanent solution to the electrical issues.

Do they even have the financing lined up to take more deliveries?



Quoting mham001 (Reply 240):
What are these electrical issues?
Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s (by deaphen Nov 24 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-05 14:01:47 and read 9522 times.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 239):
AI is considering deferring all deliveries until Boeing comes out with a permanent solution to the electrical issues. The current timeframe which Boeing has predicted for this solution to come out is 2-3 months. Until then, aircraft in the current fleet will continue operations with an interim solution suggested by Boeing.

Why haven't any of the other 7 carriers operating the 787 complained of electrical issues? It seems to me that AI is creating issues to buy more time to solve their financing/cashflow issues.

Interestingly enough, Boeing took up 2 AI 787s at Charleston in the last couple of days.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-05 14:06:38 and read 9492 times.

Not having seen any specifics listed anywhere, it's either something specific to AI's cofiguration or it's a "toilet flush" isssue everybody else is able to live with.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: mham001
Posted 2012-12-05 14:13:18 and read 9470 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 242):
Air India Summons Boeing Brass For Poor 787s (by deaphen Nov 24 2012 in Civil Aviation)

That was nothing more than the usual vague rumor and innuendo. I was hoping for some substance here. If there really is a problem lurking, it would be interesting to hear why the other carriers are so secretive about it all.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-05 14:36:08 and read 9401 times.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 239):
AI is considering deferring all deliveries until Boeing comes out with a permanent solution to the electrical issues. The current timeframe which Boeing has predicted for this solution to come out is 2-3 months. Until then, aircraft in the current fleet will continue operations with an interim solution suggested by Boeing.

so the question in inquiring minds is what are these "electrical issues" that AI is complaining about. If these issues are so bothersome or a safety to flight why are they flying the three that they have now? AI is throwing up smoke and mirrors again to mask their own internal issues.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-12-05 14:57:54 and read 9313 times.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 240):
What are these electrical issues?

Problems with AI's lenders' calculators, which inexplicably make the numbers fail to pencil out for bridge loans that should have been a snap to underwrite.   

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: Stitch
Posted 2012-12-05 15:18:58 and read 9272 times.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 245):
If there really is a problem lurking, it would be interesting to hear why the other carriers are so secretive about it all.

Perhaps it's related to the IFE system or some other customer-specific system.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: mffoda
Posted 2012-12-05 16:44:25 and read 9140 times.

The electrical problems are simple...

Its just that the 787 electric systems are so efficient (compared to the national grid in India), that they have to figure out how to the lights on around the airports when the 787's are dispatched on their given routes and unplugged form their ground services!      

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-05 17:04:21 and read 9104 times.

Well there is this article saying that 787 delivereis to Air India will continue:

Posted 2012-12-05 18:50:45 and read 8901 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 242):
Do they even have the financing lined up to take more deliveries?

Not sure. Finance Ministry has finally dropped opposition for a bunch of AI issues, but I'm not sure whether the original lender has pulled the loan or not in the meantime

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 246):

so the question in inquiring minds is what are these "electrical issues" that AI is complaining about.

VT-ANI (the CHS built one) was grounded for some time due to electrical issues pertaining to the Minimum Equipment List. I think there are more issues as well, but unfortunately I don't have specifics at this time.

AI is not the only airline to be complaining about electricals - another airline (UA I think?) is facing some similar difficulties.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: kanban
Posted 2012-12-05 20:11:02 and read 8859 times.

Looking at Matt Cawby's site and the picture of the of the Lan planes in the fuel dock.. http://paineairport.com/kpae5700.htm

The nearer one shows exidence of a windshield and side window change.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-05 20:30:47 and read 8798 times.

Quoting kanban (Reply 252):
Looking at Matt Cawby's site and the picture of the of the Lan planes in the fuel dock.. http://paineairport.com/kpae5700.htm

The nearer one shows exidence of a windshield and side window change.

Actually you're looking at a 767 in the foreground and a 787 in the background. I don't see any window issues.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SCL767
Posted 2012-12-05 20:45:24 and read 8805 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 253):

Quoting kanban (Reply 252):
Looking at Matt Cawby's site and the picture of the of the Lan planes in the fuel dock.. http://paineairport.com/kpae5700.htm

The nearer one shows exidence of a windshield and side window change.

Actually you're looking at a 767 in the foreground and a 787 in the background. I don't see any window issues.

Now that's a great picture! Nice to see a LAN 767 next to a LAN 787!  

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-12-05 21:32:20 and read 8719 times.

Quoting kanban (Reply 252):
http://paineairport.com/kpae5700.htm

Neat picture from Matt Cawby! Has a 767, 787, 777, and 747, in that order.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-06 05:24:38 and read 8392 times.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 251):
AI is not the only airline to be complaining about electricals - another airline (UA I think?) is facing some similar difficulties.

With the exception of the failed generator that occured two days ago, UA hasn't said anything about electrical issues since taking delivery so I don't know what you are referring to. None of the other carriers that have the plane have said anything about electrical problems with the 787.

Again, this is Air India trying to make buy time becuase of the financial situation that they placed themselves in.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: QatarA340
Posted 2012-12-06 05:59:23 and read 8320 times.

How many 787s are QR going to get delievered in 2013? Does anybody know?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-06 06:57:53 and read 8232 times.

ZA289 (LN 55, N45905) is making it's B-2 flight today:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE289

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-06 07:12:58 and read 8200 times.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 257):
How many 787s are QR going to get delievered in 2013? Does anybody know?

They should be getting 6 in 2013 I believe.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-06 07:17:04 and read 8209 times.

ZA287 (LN 52, N27903) is making it's B-1 flight today:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE287

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-06 07:26:28 and read 8190 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 258):
ZA289 (LN 55, N45905) is making it's B-2 flight today:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE289

Actually based on the length of time since it's last flight and the profile being flow it's the C-1.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-06 09:06:15 and read 7993 times.

ZA512 (LN 83, JA818A) to fly its B-1 flight today as well:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE512

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-06 10:42:41 and read 7804 times.

Looks like low ceilings are getting in the way of the scheduled B-1 flights for now.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-12-06 11:47:40 and read 7705 times.

Quoting starrion (Reply 189):
It looks like that will be coming to an end soon. There are only five of the later build frames (other than air india and the chinese) left to deliver. After that everything is going to have to come from the teens and twenties which have months of work per frame. I recall from a thread that each of the early build frames will need five months of time at the EMC before beinag able to be delivered?

5 months? If it only were true. LN7 spent about 8 months at the EMC while LN45 spent 6.5 months at the EMC. And you need at least another month for painting, flight testing and delivery preparation. Make the sum for those teens. Plus, Boeing said before that the change incorporation process will continue until 2014/2015.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-06 11:48:06 and read 7693 times.

ZA512 on its B-1 flight right now. Still waiting for ZA287 but so far it's flight plan has timed out.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2012-12-06 12:08:20 and read 7632 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 256):
None of the other carriers that have the plane have said anything about electrical problems with the 787.

ANA had some electrical problems with JA804A (LN9) in the beginning, but nothing serious. But I agree, AI is a little bit of a drama queen.

Quoting sweair (Reply 169):
How does ET find its 787s I read about AI being very displeased with it. But Indians must be a hard crowd to satisfy, the posters here anyway.
http://atwonline.com/operations-main...+AtwDailyNews+%28ATW+Daily+News%29

ET is speaking about "some minor technical problems" but also nothing serious to find here.

I think we can all agree that it is common for an entirely new aircraft to have some minor start-up problems. I'm not worried, Boeing and their customers know what they are doing.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2012-12-06 15:57:21 and read 7252 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 264):
5 months? If it only were true. LN7 spent about 8 months at the EMC while LN45 spent 6.5 months at the EMC. And you need at least another month for painting, flight testing and delivery preparation. Make the sum for those teens. Plus, Boeing said before that the change incorporation process will continue until 2014/2015.

So, when does PAE get its crosswind runway back?  

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-07 09:27:09 and read 6574 times.

ZA287 is on its B-1 flight right now. Boeing now has conducted 5 B-1 flights in the past 7 days (12/1 to 12/7 inclusive).

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE287

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: sweair
Posted 2012-12-07 09:32:31 and read 6562 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 268):

Starting to look like September? Lots of activity after a slow period? How many will be delivered you think?

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-07 09:39:07 and read 6532 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 269):
Starting to look like September? Lots of activity after a slow period? How many will be delivered you think?

Think they'll deliver 8. If AI takes deliveries this month then it could go up to 10.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-07 09:47:29 and read 6501 times.

To the Mods: I think we need to get a Part 12 going for this topic as we're at 270 postings already.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2012-12-07 10:17:54 and read 6401 times.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 267):
So, when does PAE get its crosswind runway back?  

Not for a while im sure:


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Photo © Alevik

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-07 11:19:39 and read 6256 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 270):
Think they'll deliver 8. If AI takes deliveries this month then it could go up to 10.

With ZA183 scheduled to fly a B-1 later this afternoon (if not tomorrow) and with almost 3 weeks to go to finish things off it looks real good to make NYC777's 8. LAN (1), UAL (2), QTR (2), ANA (2), JAL (1). LOT is ready for customer but apparently won't deliver until JAN--maybe we'll get lucky and the Chinese will show up unexpectantly.


http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE183

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: starrion
Posted 2012-12-07 11:32:44 and read 6213 times.

Keep in mind that the Christmas holidays will dump most of the last week...

I also doubt that Boeing will push to exceed guidance.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-07 11:41:25 and read 6191 times.

Quoting starrion (Reply 274):
Keep in mind that the Christmas holidays will dump most of the last week...

Although most of the Boeing Company is shutdown over the Xmas break, if there are airplanes that need to be flown to get delivered before the end of the year it will happen--been there, done that.

Quoting starrion (Reply 274):
I also doubt that Boeing will push to exceed guidance.

You would be surprised what goes on to deliver airplanes at the end of the quarter/half/year.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: NYC777
Posted 2012-12-07 11:55:18 and read 6133 times.

Boeing can do a lot of flying over the next week and a half to prepare many of these airplanes for delivery during the week of Dec. 17th. But they can also deliver during the Xmas break, the company doesn't entirely shut down as 7Boeing7 says. At the end of the day they want to record as much revenue by Dec. 31st as they can and if the plane is close to being delivered they'll find a way of getting it done.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2012-12-07 11:57:58 and read 6145 times.

Quoting starrion (Reply 274):
I also doubt that Boeing will push to exceed guidance.

Every 787 they deliver is tens of millions in cold hard cash. They have plenty of incentive to deliver every frame they can by year-end.

Topic: RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 11
Username: SA7700
Posted 2012-12-07 12:36:35 and read 6062 times.

This thread will be locked for further contributions as it has become quite long and in some instances difficult to follow. Please feel free to continue your discussion on this topic in the following thread: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 12


We sincerely hope that you continue to enjoy the forums.  


Regards,

SA7700


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