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Topic: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-12-03 16:02:09 and read 8518 times.

Ive been pondering today with the new alliances and some new, exciting destinations to bring their product to VX will need to look (and probably has extensively) at where to expand once they move from this re-trenchment phase. I threw a few suggestions out there but wonder what the POSITIVE people out there might have to contribute taking into consideration where Singapore/HA/VS/VA passengers tend to connect too and what communities have strong businesses formed with VX demographic, not so loyal to UA/DL/AA/US. I put a few suggestions below and look forward to reading your responses. Maybe VX will take a gander at them

Please keep your VX is going bye-bye talk to all of the other threads youve chosen to make your productive statements in thank you....

(If anyone knows why this didnt work please share)
SFO-YYZ
LAX-YYZ
SFO-MEX
SFO-AUS
LAX-AUS
SFO-MSP
SFO-IAH
LAX-IAH
*I worry the loyalty may be an issue here but the alliances could help push traffic over
LAX-ASE
SFO-ASE
SFO-EGE

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: jamake1
Posted 2012-12-03 16:08:46 and read 8511 times.

VX already operated flights to YYZ from SFO and could not make it work against the dominant Star Alliance carriers in the market. I have thought that AUS from the westcoast could be a natural market for VX. I'd also like to see SFO-BUR flights from VX as the market now consists of a handful of UAX CRJ flights.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-03 16:16:50 and read 8466 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
LAX-ASE
SFO-ASE

I don't think the A32x could handle that.

I'll add two:
IND-LAX (a route currently served nonstop by only DL on a less-than-daily basis, but one that has been served multiple times daily in the past by NW, WN, and FL)
IND-SFO (a route that is a top priority for the Indianapolis Airport Authority; once served by NW in the focus city days and maybe TZ as well)

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: SANFan
Posted 2012-12-03 16:25:44 and read 8409 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
Ive been pondering today with the new alliances and some new, exciting destinations to bring their product to VX will need to look (and probably has extensively) at where to expand once they move from this re-trenchment phase. I threw a few suggestions out there but wonder what the POSITIVE people out there might have to contribute taking into consideration where Singapore/HA/VS/VA passengers tend to connect too and what communities have strong businesses formed with VX demographic, not so loyal to UA/DL/AA/US. I put a few suggestions below and look forward to reading your responses. Maybe VX will take a gander at them.

The first thing I notice about your list is that you are continuing right along VX's current strategy of only flying from SFO and LAX. There are some of us out here that feel that is part of the carrier's business model that is very narrow minded and is contributing to their current situation (and exactly why they need this re-re-trenchment phase.)

Virgin has lots of dots now but continues to not connect them at all. You are simply proposing more of the same. I don't really understand why this will help them.

Sorry if this is not positive enough for this thread...

bb

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: as739x
Posted 2012-12-03 16:27:23 and read 8396 times.

Quoting jamake1 (Reply 1):
I have thought that AUS from the westcoast could be a natural market for VX.

SFO/LAX-AUS are very saturated right now.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
SFO-YYZ
LAX-YYZ

Tried and failed

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):
I don't think the A32x could handle that.

Correct.

VX has to deal with other issue's right now. They don't have any aircraft coming and are starting to deal with labor cost issue's. I believe they won't be taking many risk here for a while.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: ytz
Posted 2012-12-03 16:40:53 and read 8326 times.

VX has to focus on city-centre airports like MDW. And has to work hard to get past perimeter rules at HOU, LGA and DCA.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-03 16:49:30 and read 8289 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 5):

VX has to focus on city-centre airports like MDW. And has to work hard to get past perimeter rules at HOU, LGA and DCA.

MDW is dominated by WN - VX stated when they were first looking at Chicago that they would not consider MDW because of that.

HOU does not have a perimeter rule.

Fighting the perimeter rule at LGA will be tough, but it needs to go.

Lastly, VX tried to get out-of-perimeter slots at DCA in the last round for SFO service, but lost. Better luck next time.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-12-03 16:49:38 and read 8288 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
Please keep your VX is going bye-bye talk to all of the other threads youve chosen to make your productive statements in thank you....

But before they decide on new fancy routes, they need to get their house in order FIRST before they do anything else. Priority #1, like it or not.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
SFO-ASE, LAX-ASE

You can't use anything bigger than a CR7 at ASE, so those are out. Republic tried this with an E190 and couldn't make it work to satisfy the FAA. ASE isn't ever going to happen for VX.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: BlueBus
Posted 2012-12-03 16:54:40 and read 8252 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
But before they decide on new fancy routes, they need to get their house in order FIRST before they do anything else. Priority #1, like it or not.

With their delay of taking on new a/c, it seems like they are in the process of doing this.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: flyingcaT
Posted 2012-12-03 17:11:07 and read 8194 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 6):
Lastly, VX tried to get out-of-perimeter slots at DCA in the last round for SFO service, but lost. Better luck next time.

Hate to correct you but both UA and VX fly DCASFO nonstop. Better luck next time

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: ytz
Posted 2012-12-03 17:20:56 and read 8157 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
You can't use anything bigger than a CR7 at ASE, so those are out. Republic tried this with an E190 and couldn't make it work to satisfy the FAA. ASE isn't ever going to happen for VX.

This is why I maintain that VX should ditch the 319s and get something smaller. (EJets, CRJ, CSeries).

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2012-12-03 17:22:33 and read 8145 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 6):
Lastly, VX tried to get out-of-perimeter slots at DCA in the last round for SFO service, but lost.

   

There is a daily SFO-DCA.

Virgin America won the authority:
DOT DCA Slot Award Decision (by LAXintl May 7 2012 in Civil Aviation)

=

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: as739x
Posted 2012-12-03 17:25:41 and read 8140 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 10):



Their in no position to bring in an additional a/c type at this time. They have their hand and need to play it as is.

As I stated above, they have some labor cost issue's that are upon them already. Bad time to start screwing with juggling pilots to a new type.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
But before they decide on new fancy routes, they need to get their house in order FIRST before they do anything else. Priority #1, like it or not.

Well said.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-12-03 17:38:52 and read 8072 times.

Ok, some good replies...regarding the YYZ ops..i am fully aware as i stated that it didnt work. Ive also always heard it was because not enough time was given to build contracts and attract the flyers on each end. When you look at their demo, YYZ still fits the bill perfectly.

-Regarding them 'connecting the dots', i know they are not doing that now, and i dont really agree thats whats 'wrong' with their model. Ive said time and time again i think their model, now marketed to EVERYONE who books travel thru sabre GDS is already turning the corner. In this same retrospect of connecting more cities, they clearly need to do that in the west and i thought taking an A319 and running it once daily back and forth to the ski resorts might make some coin over the winter. I guess if the runways dont suit then it wont work. I remember running 57's into Vail, and i assumed Aspen but maybe i was wrong

-IND-SFO/LAX =- great idea..i knew there were more cities i wasnt thinking of

-AUS market:: I believe the saturation is not true. I for instance just had a passenger who couldnt get from PDX-AUS because DL only offered a late flight from SLC and AA was out of the way thru DFW, US and AS didnt even show up. United was rediculous in price and F9 ended up being his best option but at 343.10 to save 2 hours it wasnt worth it. Im not saying VX wouldve won this customer over but atleast they would have been an option. Besides with hubs at LAX and SFO, those two populations and the loyal VX base at both im sure need AUS and would choose VX.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: nomorerjs
Posted 2012-12-03 17:39:05 and read 8072 times.

Given their current state, it's not in the current routes. DFW amd ORD are great marktes, but AA (DFW and ORD) and UA (ORD) will protect their turf. Thown in WN from MDW in this case, and it's tough for VX to make two large O&D markets work from SFO. Maybe they should try a different hub?

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-12-03 17:41:54 and read 8061 times.

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 14):
Given their current state, it's not in the current routes. DFW amd ORD are great marktes, but AA (DFW and ORD) and UA (ORD) will protect their turf. Thown in WN from MDW in this case, and it's tough for VX to make two large O&D markets work from SFO. Maybe they should try a different hub?

Definetely you did NOT read the topic of this thread.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-12-03 18:09:35 and read 7973 times.

The main question to consider here, is there profitability possible given its current model in the near future?

If the answer is no i would think they need to consider a total change in business model. Consider a different focus than LAX/SFO or consider more middle america less competitive cities? Just because the product seems like a great fit for LAX-JFK it doesn't necessarily mean they are making any money on the route. The airline has never had a profitably quarter and some of its oldest routes are probably dogs that just keep weighing the airline down. To this point they seem h#ll bent of keeping the exact same strategy as launch.

Unless they expect some massive turn around I don't see a massive economic recovery soon enough for Virgin America I think they will need to consider a new business plan unless the investors plan on just bailing out for an unknown time period. It is the best product out there i would take virgin amnerica anywhere anytime but that doesn't mean it can survive like this forever, does it?

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: jbmitt
Posted 2012-12-03 18:15:53 and read 7954 times.

I'd like to see CVG - SFO/LAX. It depends on how aggressive DL would be to compete... they should be able to charge profitable fares, and I suspect that they would attract plenty of passengers.

It would come down to how many of us would forgo our skymiles. DL has flown LAX as many as 3x daily and I think SFO was 2x daily in recent years, I think both are 1x daily now

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-12-03 18:29:39 and read 7895 times.

My initial thought was VCV, one way.

I then decided to give a bit more thought to it, and wondered if there would be any value in them flying to smaller centers in the mid/mountain west. While there would be next to no demand for their extravagant F product, I found some decent-ish sized markets where there was either no competition or the only competitor would be UA/OO.

I thinking something like:

SFO to ABQ, ELP, SAT, BOI, OMA, DSM

Maybe even LBB or ICT

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: SonomaFlyer
Posted 2012-12-03 18:49:08 and read 7829 times.

I flew VX for the first time this weekend and found it had outstanding service and a great experience. Given I will need to be flying to DFW a lot more often, I intend to use them on that route. I like the idea of not just giving away first class seats. I did notice that on each flight, only one person paid full fare for first. The others (like me) paid to upgrade in the six hour window before the flight.

The whole US airline market is a bit saturated and they will need to consider some serious changes in their plan to make things work. I hope they can make it work, its a great product and a refreshing change to the legacy carriers.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2012-12-03 18:55:59 and read 7800 times.

Quoting as739x (Reply 12):
As I stated above, they have some labor cost issue's that are upon them already. Bad time to start screwing with juggling pilots to a new type.

Isn't most of their below wing work contracted out?

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-12-03 18:59:19 and read 7777 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 16):
Unless they expect some massive turn around I don't see a massive economic recovery soon enough for Virgin America I think they will need to consider a new business plan unless the investors plan on just bailing out for an unknown time period.

I agree. Fix the business plan and THEN think about expanding. Keep in mind, when a new station opens up, it comes with station start up costs. I don't think VX has that kind of money at this time.

However, I give the OP some credit: One can dream......

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-12-03 19:09:18 and read 7726 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 18):
I thinking something like:

SFO to ABQ, ELP, SAT, BOI, OMA, DSM

Maybe even LBB or ICT

Now this is where i was going with this thread. They are connecting passengers to SQ|HA & VA and unknown but i would presume possible VS at LAX & SFO so it only makes sense for atleast 1 daily (in the future) to some high-yield underserved population centers of the west. I wonder if anyone has stats on where SQ|HA|VA BEYOND passengers are actually going?

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2012-12-03 19:24:33 and read 7662 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 18):
I thinking something like:

SFO to ABQ, ELP, SAT, BOI, OMA, DSM

Maybe even LBB or ICT

Recipe for disaster. A319's are too big to be competitive frequency-wise and the potential connection opportunities are very limited at SFO. There is a reason why these cities have little mainline service.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 13):
-AUS market:: I believe the saturation is not true. I for instance just had a passenger who couldnt get from PDX-AUS because DL only offered a late flight from SLC and AA was out of the way thru DFW, US and AS didnt even show up. United was rediculous in price and F9 ended up being his best option but at 343.10 to save 2 hours it wasnt worth it. Im not saying VX wouldve won this customer over but atleast they would have been an option. Besides with hubs at LAX and SFO, those two populations and the loyal VX base at both im sure need AUS and would choose VX.

How is flying PDX-DFW-AUS out of the way? Sounds like your customer is way too high-maintenance. He/She would probably complain about VX times and routings as well.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2012-12-03 19:36:56 and read 7614 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 22):
o it only makes sense for atleast 1 daily (in the future) to some high-yield underserved population centers of the west

I'm incline to agree (which is why I suggested them!), but:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 23):
Recipe for disaster. A319's are too big to be competitive frequency-wise

This was nagging me when I was looking at it, and now think about it if UA can only manage 1-2 CRJs daily on SFO-ABQ, for example, then I think that VX's aircraft are the wrong size to make this work.

That said. DSM, for example, should be able to support 1x LAX, no?

I would suggest that OMA and BOI should be the same, even if the likes of ABQ and ELP are better left to WN and OO.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: UA735WL
Posted 2012-12-03 19:50:45 and read 7805 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
SFO-AUS
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 13):
AUS market:: I believe the saturation is not true. I for instance just had a passenger who couldnt get from PDX-AUS because DL only offered a late flight from SLC and AA was out of the way thru DFW, US and AS didnt even show up. United was rediculous in price and F9 ended up being his best option but at 343.10 to save 2 hours it wasnt worth it. Im not saying VX wouldve won this customer over but atleast they would have been an option. Besides with hubs at LAX and SFO, those two populations and the loyal VX base at both im sure need AUS and would choose VX.

This problem is understandable, but are there enough passengers with this dilemma to fill another daily 319/320 from SFO?

I truly believe VX could turn a good profit on SFO-AUS-SFO.....if not for competition. There is a market for mainline AUS-SFO service- case in point is B6, who flies it every day with a 320 and gets (from what I understand) good LFs. VX's problem is that it does not have the cash to gamble on saturated routes like AUS that have a 50/50 chance of being profitable. UA and B6 (for right now) have the market locked down, with daily CR7s and 320s. I don't think that under the current situation that there is enough demand to fill another daily Airbus. If there was no competition from B6 on the route, I could see VX thriving @ AUS. VX's J product could also give them an edge, as no carrier on the route offers anything comparable. In the end, it IS the saturation at AUS (coupled with VX's precarious financial position) that is chasing VX away.

Just my 2 cents 

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2012-12-03 20:12:08 and read 7731 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 24):
That said. DSM, for example, should be able to support 1x LAX, no?

I would suggest that OMA and BOI should be the same, even if the likes of ABQ and ELP are better left to WN and OO.

If VX wants to attract business travellers they would need to fly these routes at least 2x daily, especially since they cannot offer any connecting flights via alternate hubs in these markets. 250 seats a day on LAX-DSM or SFO-OMA would be serious overcapacity and would bleed money. These would be great markets for CR7's or E70 sized aircraft, however.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2012-12-03 20:14:07 and read 7967 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
SFO-YYZ
LAX-YYZ

For the same reason AS failed. The point of sale is Canada, not the USA. Thus Canadian carriers rule. AA serves the market to feed QF.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
SFO-AUS
LAX-AUS

I am not sure how big these markets are to support a 3rd airline

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
SFO-MSP

Do people from SFO want to go to MSP? VX is very very much a LA and Bay Area point of sale airline. If the POS on MSP-LAX, is MSP, then VX wont do well.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
SFO-MSP
SFO-IAH
LAX-IAH

Tough but doable. The UA/UA hubs would be a challenge.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
LAX-ASE
SFO-ASE

No, runway and noise issues

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
SFO-EGE

Now youre talking. Why not LAX-EGE also

Quoting jbmitt (Reply 17):
I'd like to see CVG - SFO/LAX

Never. Market is way way to small and not lucrative enough

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 18):
SFO to ABQ, ELP, SAT, BOI, OMA, DSM

Dear God, do you guys on A.net understand VX's business model?? It is trying to capture California business corporate traffic. Not spoke traffic going to LAX or SFO.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 13):
-AUS market:: I believe the saturation is not true. I for instance just had a passenger who couldnt get from PDX-AUS because DL only offered a late flight from SLC and AA was out of the way thru DFW

DFW is the #1 connect point for most destination from AUS.

Why no LAX-ATL???? It would be good for the movie industry. There is lots of LA originating traffic going to ATL. This is the most obvious next market for VX. SFO also but I dont think it would be as good as LAX. DL would be no more aggressive in this market than AA is in LAX-DFW


Fact we are having such a tough time coming up with new markets means that VX has most viable markets served. There might be some LAS potential, but VX is close to tapped out.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: san747
Posted 2012-12-03 20:15:36 and read 7949 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 16):
If the answer is no i would think they need to consider a total change in business model. Consider a different focus than LAX/SFO or consider more middle america less competitive cities? Just because the product seems like a great fit for LAX-JFK it doesn't necessarily mean they are making any money on the route. The airline has never had a profitably quarter and some of its oldest routes are probably dogs that just keep weighing the airline down. To this point they seem h#ll bent of keeping the exact same strategy as launch.

VX made an operating profit this quarter. The routes themselves are making money. The big issue is that all the costs incurred with the rapid growth of the last 18 months (opening 6 new stations and nearly doubling the size of the fleet between 2010 and now) have stacked up and VX doesn't have the luxury of decades of cash reserves that the legacies have. Which is why...

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 21):

I agree. Fix the business plan and THEN think about expanding. Keep in mind, when a new station opens up, it comes with station start up costs. I don't think VX has that kind of money at this time.

...the expansion is slowing down. Only one more plane before 2015, and no new station announcements that I as a VX teammate am aware of at this time. VX is going to let the dust settle and let the new routes and stations mature.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-12-03 20:26:12 and read 7864 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 15):
Definetely you did NOT read the topic of this thread.

I don't think its him, I think it is what you want this thread to be that is the problem. You are asking us to mention routes that VX could fly well. You can't talk that until you have a model that works which VX certainly doesn't have. What you are asking for is non-existant.

[Edited 2012-12-03 20:32:15]

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-12-03 23:04:46 and read 7656 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 29):
I don't think its him, I think it is what you want this thread to be that is the problem. You are asking us to mention routes that VX could fly well. You can't talk that until you have a model that works which VX certainly doesn't have. What you are asking for is non-existant.

Plenty of the other kids came to the convo and offered up some good and some entertaining opinions. I knew going into this that there are some who simply cant resist knocking down this airline, and while honestly hoping and receiving some good discussion the thread also served its second point which is exactly what you and your friend above have done. Clearly i wouldnt discuss this without knowing VX current position as stated to 'chill and let mature'. Its just impossible though for some to avoid, even when asked politely the 'knockdown talk'. reminds me of a certain news channel's followers.

-back to the thread. I thought about ATL initially and kept it out because it seems like such a connection hub but obviously catchment is easily 4 million so good call there. I didnt realize B6 was on the AUS route and would have to agree they beat VX to that punch then. UA offering CRJ service left a whole and its a VX type market but def covered if B6 is in it.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: panam330
Posted 2012-12-03 23:41:55 and read 7634 times.

Yields notwithstanding, VX has plenty of markets to go after ex-SFO/LAX. PHX, DEN, YVR, EGE, IAH, SAT, RDU, ATL, MSY, and many more I'm sure I'm overlooking. That's quite a bit of possible growth right there. Maybe they'll think outside the box a little and try SAN-MIA or DFW-LAS/east coast, among dozens of other combinations they can come up with without opening a single new station. Many things are possible, but only the folks in Burlingame can play with the route map - something that won't happen for a long while.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-12-04 06:38:54 and read 7381 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 30):
even when asked politely the 'knockdown talk'. reminds me of a certain news channel's followers.

Sorry if this isn't the thread of fairies and pixy dust like you want but we should look at reality, if they don't fix them selves first, what does it matter what they add, they'll be gone. AirframeAS is right on par...

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
But before they decide on new fancy routes, they need to get their house in order FIRST before they do anything else. Priority #1, like it or not.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 21):
Fix the business plan and THEN think about expanding.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: psa1011
Posted 2012-12-04 07:49:46 and read 7307 times.

It's too bad VX didn't try SAN-Mexico/Florida/East Coast/Canada. With Alaska having built up so much there I can't see much room now for VX, which doesn't serve small markets (e.g., FAT), or Hawaii. Even if they did try SAN-FLL, Alaska would probably start it too. MIA is a long-shot since AA would probably finally jump.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: USAirALB
Posted 2012-12-04 08:16:39 and read 7153 times.

I think VX really needs to get their name out here on the East coast. Outside of the Northeast and a few places in Florida, VX is almost unheard of.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-12-04 08:22:50 and read 7115 times.

MIA-BGI
MIA-SFO
MIA-LAX
MIA-ORD
MIA-DFW
MIA-SJU

They need EWR slots, but I think these make more sense than JFK and that requires slots too
EWR-MIA
EWR-LAX
EWR-SFO
EWR-CUN
EWR-GCM
EWR-BDA Summer
EWR-BGI

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: boeing71234567
Posted 2012-12-04 08:32:21 and read 7015 times.

I could see SFO/LAX - BDL 1x daily work. There is a market for west coast travel from the Southern New England area that would be more convenient than BOS or JFK. I believe DAL last flew to LAX a few years ago, and UA to SFO about 6 years ago. From what I heard they did very well! Also with new development zones, and economic improvement, space, quick and easy access and with little to no delays, VX would benefit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/05/re...ey-airport-as-a-business-draw.html

"These days Bradley is served by seven airlines, and the governor says he is personally involved in campaigning for new flights. The state is considering offering a reduction in landing fees and other fees to airlines willing to bring transcontinental and international service to the airport.

“We are targeting specific routes to make it more lucrative for a carrier to offer service at Bradley,” said Kevin A. Dillon, the airport’s executive director. “We’re trying to get business that will generate travel and also generate employment in the area.”

In my honest opinion, this is where VX will take their business in the near future.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-12-04 08:40:07 and read 6989 times.

Quoting san747 (Reply 28):
VX made an operating profit this quarter. The routes themselves are making money. The big issue is that all the costs incurred with the rapid growth of the last 18 months

Virgin America earned a $16.2 million operating profit in the third quarter of this year, but swung to a net loss of $3.3 million during the quarter. True but still a net loss.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-12-04 10:06:28 and read 6437 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 37):
Quoting san747 (Reply 28):
VX made an operating profit this quarter. The routes themselves are making money. The big issue is that all the costs incurred with the rapid growth of the last 18 months

Virgin America earned a $16.2 million operating profit in the third quarter of this year, but swung to a net loss of $3.3 million during the quarter. True but still a net loss.

This is the same argument that the F9 fanboys make. An operating profit is not a profit. It doesn't include any mortgage financing interest or debt interest payments of any sort or taxes. AA made an operating profit just a quarter before they filed for Ch11.

If your planes are mortgage financed it's really meaningless unless you think it's legit to have free airplanes in determining profitability.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-04 10:14:26 and read 6375 times.

Quoting boeing71234567 (Reply 36):
I believe DAL last flew to LAX a few years ago, and UA to SFO about 6 years ago. From what I heard they did very well!

AA and DL both flew LAXBDL at a time; DL last, about 2-3 years ago (and that was its second go on the route; it also flew it with Song earlier in the decade).

UA hasn't flown SFOBDL in over ten years, IIRC.

If they did very well, why aren't they still operating these routes?

Virgin has a top notch product but it will never be successful in stealing away corporate contracts on routes like JFKLAX. It's a premium leisure airline, and it should accept that fate. Work with that fact, and it has potential in many new markets, especially South Florida/NYC/Boston-Caribbean, which contrary to what many here might think, is high-yield and quite profitable.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: ordjoe
Posted 2012-12-04 11:03:47 and read 6069 times.

The biggest problem of VX is they are going after saturated markets with an entrenched loyalty base. Just about every route I can think of is heavily trafficed by the legacies. Back to the loyalty base, I do not see how they are building on it. Their FFP is a joke, I can not see them having many corporate contracts due to their limited network. Where do they expect loyal higher paying pax to come into the picture. I will agree their on board service is top notch, hell even their F is better than UA or AAs international J in my mind. But as we see at the end of the day people do not pay for that.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 39):
Virgin has a top notch product but it will never be successful in stealing away corporate contracts on routes like JFKLAX. It's a premium leisure airline, and it should accept that fate. Work with that fact, and it has potential in many new markets, especially South Florida/NYC/Boston-Caribbean, which contrary to what many here might think, is high-yield and quite profitable.

Honestly they need to look into routes that are not heavily serviced and appeal to leisure traffic. I have heard their FLL route does well. The caribbean can be lucrative. ORD has minimal caribbean flights, and when they do it is frequently $800 (I paid 875 ORD-GND back in March). I think they need to go after routes like that and ditch the mindset of going up against the big boys on prestige routes such as BOS/JFK-SFO or LAX. I have flown VX several times and I really like their product and I truly wish them the best of sucess.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2012-12-04 11:32:58 and read 5896 times.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 34):
I think VX really needs to get their name out here on the East coast. Outside of the Northeast and a few places in Florida, VX is almost unheard of.

What VX needs to realize is that the major markets areas are the east coast and the west coast with some midwest thrown in (sorry, but it's true)..

They may have a decent presence on the west coast, but their east coast presence is dismal. And they are going after some difficult markets in the flights they do offer. I think what they need to realize is that they are a BOUTIQUE airline and therefore should not be trying to offer high frequency flights but rather should be trying to go for the boutique crowd.. Offering 3x LAX/SFO-JFK should be more than sufficient. Sure they could probably do 5 times but what they want to get is that upper 30-40% that's gonna want the luxury they offer.. And they should be doing some other untapped markets that could work. 1-2x daily flights should be their speciality with 3-5x for serious high rolling destinations.

VX, for example, could come in and do a 1x BDL-LAX/SFO... they could go after the upper 30-40% who are traveling that route and wants it a little bit more luxurious. The problem for VX is they only offer those routes (LAX and SFO) and unless they have movie stars or the like, its gonna be hard to get those people to start dedicating their traveling to that airline. So, they need to offer enough options to capture travelers.. so they would need to offer additional destiantions.. they could end up doing 1x BDL-LAX/SFO/DFW/SEA/MIA/PDX.. base 2 aircraft at the airport, and they will get brand loyalty cause they would get those that can afford the route and offer the ability to get the destinations that people (business and leisure) would want to go.

Just my opinion, but the Ryanairs and EasyJets have it right where they base aircraft at airports and exploit those airports for the most they can..

But, I difress...

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: slcdeltarumd11
Posted 2012-12-04 11:42:16 and read 5830 times.

I would think LAX/SFO-EGE would be worth a shot. They need more seasonal routes. EGE is really the airport for both Vail and Aspen so I could see lots of demand given the virgin america fan base. I think EGE makes more sense than trying super competative DEN or SLC

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: mah4546
Posted 2012-12-04 12:06:40 and read 5725 times.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 42):
I would think LAX/SFO-EGE would be worth a shot. They need more seasonal routes. EGE is really the airport for both Vail and Aspen so I could see lots of demand given the virgin america fan base. I think EGE makes more sense than trying super competative DEN or SLC

Never going to work on LAXEGE. Vail Resorts basiclly banks AA's route network out of Vail. They aren't going to offer subsidies to a competitor and make AA upset; and if VX enters on its own, those subisdies will be used to basiclly run VX out of town.

I believe the UA/SFOEGE route is similarly bank-rolled.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-04 12:23:57 and read 5626 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 27):
Dear God, do you guys on A.net understand VX's business model?? It is trying to capture California business corporate traffic. Not spoke traffic going to LAX or SFO.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks VX must strengthen their customer base at SFO and LAX before other options. It is analogous to B6 at JFK... then they tried a few other airports and it 'stuck' at FLL and BOS. VX has issues and it is directly tied to premium demand from the West Coast. They are in a tough bind: More destinations to interest frequent fliers yet new routes are not profitable.

I wonder if VX could make money to HNL and Maui with the A319?

Quoting as739x (Reply 4):
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
SFO-YYZ
LAX-YYZ

Tried and failed

Interesting. I missed those routes were tried.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 19):
I did notice that on each flight, only one person paid full fare for first. The others (like me) paid to upgrade in the six hour window before the flight.
Quoting UA735WL (Reply 25):
VX's problem is that it does not have the cash to gamble on saturated routes like AUS that have a 50/50 chance of being profitable.

Agreed. They need to go after overpriced hub to LAX/SFO routes.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 27):
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
SFO-MSP
SFO-IAH
LAX-IAH

Tough but doable. The UA/UA hubs would be a challenge.

Agreed. The allergic reaction will be huge, but VX must try.

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 33):
It's too bad VX didn't try SAN-Mexico/Florida

??? Their route map has about all the routes that will be profitable in this economy.
http://www.virginamerica.com/travel/flight-routes.html

I wonder why they do not fly to more of their destinations from LAX? AS? B6?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 39):
AA and DL both flew LAXBDL at a time; DL last, about 2-3 years ago (and that was its second go on the route; it also flew it with Song earlier in the decade).

UA hasn't flown SFOBDL in over ten years, IIRC.

If they did very well, why aren't they still operating these routes?

As much as I wish BDL TCON would work... it takes a booming economy to make it happen. Too many people are willing to connect.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 41):
VX, for example, could come in and do a 1x BDL-LAX/SFO...

Already discussed. DL and UA/CO have loyal customers in BDL and it would be a tough market to crack into.

IAH, MSP, and possibly HNL seem to be their best 'next choices.'

Lightaber

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: ItalianFlyer
Posted 2012-12-04 12:54:53 and read 5463 times.

What about business centers in Mexico like MTY, GDL or even metro Mexico City airports like QRO orPBC ?

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: MHTripple7
Posted 2012-12-04 13:06:47 and read 5400 times.

SFO-TPA or SAN-TPA? I'm surprised neither have been tried before by any airline. Although TPA only has 1x daily to LAX so maybe it would be too thin.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2012-12-04 13:23:48 and read 5310 times.

Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 46):
SFO-TPA or SAN-TPA? I'm surprised neither have been tried before by any airline.

TZ did try SFO-PIE in the early 2000's. Did not go well....

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: AA94
Posted 2012-12-04 14:09:03 and read 5101 times.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 39):
Virgin has a top notch product but it will never be successful in stealing away corporate contracts on routes like JFKLAX. It's a premium leisure airline, and it should accept that fate. Work with that fact, and it has potential in many new markets, especially South Florida/NYC/Boston-Caribbean, which contrary to what many here might think, is high-yield and quite profitable.

  

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 40):
The biggest problem of VX is they are going after saturated markets with an entrenched loyalty base. Just about every route I can think of is heavily trafficed by the legacies. Back to the loyalty base, I do not see how they are building on it. Their FFP is a joke, I can not see them having many corporate contracts due to their limited network. Where do they expect loyal higher paying pax to come into the picture. I will agree their on board service is top notch, hell even their F is better than UA or AAs international J in my mind. But as we see at the end of the day people do not pay for that.

  

In my opinion, VX is focusing completely on the wrong markets. With no alliance to call home and a limited number of connecting partners (really only Virgin Group airlines), VX has positioned themselves to be a luxury O&D airline. Anyone who flies transcons is likely a status member on (or loyal to) AA, UA, and maybe even DL to some extent. These are also the airlines that have captured corporate contracts originating from the area.

I think we can all agree that VX's product and service are a level above many of the rest, but that gap is slowly closing, and they are fighting losing battles against airlines that have better networks and more loyal customer bases than they do.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 21):
I agree. Fix the business plan and THEN think about expanding. Keep in mind, when a new station opens up, it comes with station start up costs. I don't think VX has that kind of money at this time.

I would disagree (partially). I agree that they must get their financial house in order, but obviously their current routes are not working. In my opinion, VX needs to begin new routes (in underserved or higher-yielding markets) in order to be profitable, and opening those routes will require money. It's sort of a catch-22 situation. IMHO.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 42):
I would think LAX/SFO-EGE would be worth a shot. They need more seasonal routes. EGE is really the airport for both Vail and Aspen so I could see lots of demand given the virgin america fan base. I think EGE makes more sense than trying super competative DEN or SLC

I agree. This is a very leisure-oriented market, any anyone who lives in the catchment area of LAX or SFO would perhaps choose the nonstop option versus a connecting option, if priced similarly. These are the kind of routes that VX needs to focus on.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: OB1504
Posted 2012-12-04 14:28:34 and read 4973 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 35):
MIA-BGI
MIA-SFO
MIA-LAX
MIA-ORD
MIA-DFW
MIA-SJU

Even as someone whose paycheck is largely financed by the dominant carrier at MIA, I would love to see VX set up shop down here for something other than aircraft acceptance.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 41):
They may have a decent presence on the west coast, but their east coast presence is dismal. And they are going after some difficult markets in the flights they do offer. I think what they need to realize is that they are a BOUTIQUE airline and therefore should not be trying to offer high frequency flights but rather should be trying to go for the boutique crowd.. Offering 3x LAX/SFO-JFK should be more than sufficient. Sure they could probably do 5 times but what they want to get is that upper 30-40% that's gonna want the luxury they offer.. And they should be doing some other untapped markets that could work. 1-2x daily flights should be their speciality with 3-5x for serious high rolling destinations.

   I had the privilege of flying VX for the first time this weekend after accepting a voluntary bump from my original NK flight. There is absolutely no question that VX offers the best domestic product in the country, but not every domestic market demands such frills.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-12-04 20:02:32 and read 4426 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 49):
I had the privilege of flying VX for the first time this weekend after accepting a voluntary bump from my original NK flight. There is absolutely no question that VX offers the best domestic product in the country, but not every domestic market demands such frills.

NK bumped you to VX? Now thats a sweet turnaround, and im assuming with compensation?

The routes to FLL are always full, i do wonder if moving ops to MIA and then springing some routes from there could be a great idea for them when they are ready..seems everyone avoids MIA and AA just has it locked down. MIA def has alot of VX demo around.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: allegiantflyer
Posted 2012-12-04 20:30:52 and read 4372 times.

VX needs to start thinking about making hubs and focus cities outside of California,I know they want to be that California airline but to possibly make more profit they need to expand outside of the state. Maybe FLL? IAD, DTW, PHX, MCO, PHL,MSP are all some of really good options,i know they don't serve some of those but they may in time. Another thing i see them doing is expanding more in JFK,they already have done a great job doing so but maybe they should add more destinations more south,like FLL,MCO,and DFW. I really hope VX gets out of this tough time they are the only more than decent carrier the U.S. Has left.

In my opinion(Being a complete PHX activist) VX needs to start service to PHX(They will likely have to face large competition) and possibly serve PHX-JFK because i think that route needs more competition and people around here are getting tired of WN  

-NRG

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: OB1504
Posted 2012-12-04 23:10:43 and read 4271 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 50):
NK bumped you to VX? Now thats a sweet turnaround, and im assuming with compensation?

The minute the agent asked me "Would you like to fly on Virgin America?", I immediately said yes and didn't bother to ask for any additional compensation. The FLL-LAX ticket was only $38.80, so what more could I ask for?

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: AKLDELNonstop
Posted 2012-12-04 23:29:15 and read 4229 times.

I think one of the issues that VX has is the timing of some of their routes. As an example, I have to fly ORD-SFO-ORD next week (Mon-Thu). I am Exec Plat on AA and normally fly AA. However, after reading good reports about VX from a service point of view, decided to give them a try. I have enough miles on AA and a round trip on a different airline wouldn't harm. So I tried to look up flights on VX leaving Mon and returning Thu and guess what, no Monday morning flights between ORD-SFO!!! The first nonstop is at 2pm. How is that ever going to work from a business travel point of view. Similarly no late afternoon/evening flights on SFO-ORD.

Now I don't know what their timings on other routes are like, but to get business travel, they would have to have the right timings.

For VX to be successful, it first needs to decide what its target market is. Given the product and the price point, VX has a coach product that targets a young and hip crowd on leisure routes. For e.g. the Facebook/Apple engineer, the young banker from NY going to LAS or MIA etc. It has a first product, that is mostly targeted towards an older version of the same crowd mentioned above.

Once they have understood their product and their target market, the next step is to figure out where these people live. I can think of NYC, BOS, DC, Miami, Chicago, Austin, Seattle, LA, SFO. If I were to include Canada, I would add in YYZ and YVR. This is not to say that other cities don't have young, hip, sophisticated people with a bit of money, they do, but the above are where they are mostly concentrated.

Next step is to figure out the following
1. Where do these people want to fly?
2. How often?
3. Which of those markets can I serve profitably with the equipment I have?

As a first step, they ought to connect the aforementioned cities with each other. Frequencies should vary by day of the week - with a focus on the leisure traveler (as described above).

Right now VX does not have the frequency to serve business travelers. It should stop chasing that market and wasting resources on 5-7x transcons. They have a great product; there is a viable niche for that product; and they need to adjust their routes, capacity and marketing according to that.

Thoughts?

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: southwest737500
Posted 2012-12-05 04:14:22 and read 4114 times.

SFO-CLT
LAX-CLT

That would be great, give US a run for there money

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: jfk777
Posted 2012-12-05 04:23:12 and read 4132 times.

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 40):
The biggest problem of VX is they are going after saturated markets with an entrenched loyalty base. Just about every route I can think of is heavily trafficed by the legacies. Back to the loyalty base, I do not see how they are building on it. Their FFP is a joke, I can not see them having many corporate contracts due to their limited network. Where do they expect loyal higher paying pax to come into the picture. I will agree their on board service is top notch, hell even their F is better than UA or AAs international J in my mind. But as we see at the end of the day people do not pay for that.

Virgin wants to be the airline for Hollywood and Slicon Valley. It wants to be a "player" in the transcon market owned by AA and UA. The best strategy for Virgin America may be to retain the Virgin brand as part of a bigger airline group. Maybe if Delta makes a deal for Virgin Atlantic they could buy Virgin America and keep it as a separate airline. Virgin could also try some east coast flights, FLL to JFK ?

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-12-05 06:01:07 and read 4055 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 49):
Even as someone whose paycheck is largely financed by the dominant carrier at MIA, I would love to see VX set up shop down here for something other than aircraft acceptance.

I also think ORD is doable as a focus city for them.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2012-12-05 13:57:36 and read 3903 times.

Quoting allegiantflyer (Reply 51):
VX needs to start thinking about making hubs and focus cities outside of California,I know they want to be that California airline but to possibly make more profit they need to expand outside of the state.

Agreed. They seem to do alright on transcons and semi-transcons from LAX and SFO where distances are longer and yields can be higher, but not so much on intra-West Coast routes of shorter length, lower yield and higher competition. Ultimately there's only so much more growth for them to push through from California. I think either MIA or FLL would make a great new base for them to expand out of.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: huxrules
Posted 2012-12-05 14:26:38 and read 3855 times.

I have always thought that VX needed to steer traffic to its larger brother virgin atlantic. Last time I checked you cant book a ticket on one to another. I emailed VX about this and they said there were legal restraints on the company. Which is weird- cant they codeshare?

I also agree that they need to bring AUS into the mix. They can go for the hipster market with flights to detroit, portland, lgw, just to name a few. All of virgin's properties are all about style and AUS would be great for it. However I'm not even sure if VX has a station at those airports.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: huxrules
Posted 2012-12-05 14:53:10 and read 3818 times.

Actually now that I look at it I'm curious why they service DFW instead of AUS as there isn't Virgin Atlantic service there at all.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-12-05 16:19:37 and read 3755 times.

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 53):
So I tried to look up flights on VX leaving Mon and returning Thu and guess what, no Monday morning flights between ORD-SFO!!! The first nonstop is at 2pm. How is that ever going to work from a business travel point of view. Similarly no late afternoon/evening flights on SFO-ORD.

Using the 12DEC as my search..eastbound from SFO & LAX arrive at 7PM/1040PM
Westbounds for 13DEC 840am LAX and 240pm SFO. Something doesnt mesh there..If there are overnighting two aircraft one appears to be sitting for a long time. That plane could run as the third flight to SFO at night and come back as redeye to turn around in the morning again.  


-Regarding the Alliance w VS/VA? idont get this either, maybe someone else can fill us in but they should be able to sell
connected tickets on each other. I stated in another post that i thought that was one of the first objectives.

-Regarding DFW over AUS..both could work. DFW is doing great and at the time they went in was one if not the highest airfares in the U.S. Someone stated AUS from SFO had B6 operating atleast one A320 along with UA offering the horrid RJ service. I still think 1 A319 roundtrip would work here and another to/from LAX

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2012-12-05 16:39:48 and read 3730 times.

On my last visit to London many years ago. It was apparent early on many Brits seem to like country music. I wonder if BNA-LHR might work three days a week either in or outside of an alliance.

I was just searching fares to LHR from various U.S. gateways. Sir Richard has a sense of humor. I got a chuckle when I saw the how do you want to pay. An option was "money"

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-05 16:57:07 and read 3693 times.

Quoting jamake1 (Reply 1):
VX already operated flights to YYZ from SFO and could not make it work against the dominant Star Alliance carriers in the market.

Also YYZ to LAX. If memory correct they operated 2 daily flights, one YYZ-LAX-SFO and the other YYZ-SFO-LAX, giving each market one daily nonstop and one daily one-stop.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 13):
YYZ still fits the bill perfectly.

Why would they make a 2nd effort when the first one failed miserably? YYZ airport's very high costs were another factor. Also can't ignore AC's huge frequent flyer customer base.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-12-05 17:15:26 and read 3672 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 62):
Why would they make a 2nd effort when the first one failed miserably? YYZ airport's very high costs were another factor. Also can't ignore AC's huge frequent flyer customer base.

Failed MISERABLY eh? show us the miserable stats.. it didnt work at the time but...

Toronto is a HUGE market and probably has one of the largest Corporate hubs in all of North America between Toronto proper and Missassauga. Plenty of people and contracts could be had. Not to mention AC has a bad reputation with more than many. Its been discussed before why it didnt work and at the right time it should be tried again. Im assuming also that their new alliance with Singapore could deliver tourists wanting to get to Niagara Falls onto that route. We all know thats a very popular tourist attraction for Asian visitors.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-05 17:21:30 and read 3645 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 63):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 62):
Why would they make a 2nd effort when the first one failed miserably? YYZ airport's very high costs were another factor. Also can't ignore AC's huge frequent flyer customer base.

Failed MISERABLY eh? show us the miserable stats.. it didnt work at the time but...

Giving up so soon after starting service is a good indication that the results were much worse than expected.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-12-05 17:32:19 and read 3615 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):
Giving up so soon after starting service is a good indication that the results were much worse than expected.

basically neither you nor I know the details so lets just agree that you dont know enough to decide they SHOULD NOT try it again...

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2012-12-05 17:57:03 and read 3581 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 63):
Failed MISERABLY eh? show us the miserable stats.. it didnt work at the time but...

To quote the press release when VX axed YYZ after only 6 months

"We would like to thank the Toronto airport and community for supporting us," Virgin America Vice President of Planning and Sales Diana Walke says in a press release. "We hope to return to YYZ (Toronto) at some point, but in the smaller Toronto-West Coast markets we were not able to stimulate demand as quickly as we would have liked."


In "laymans terms" this means that their flights were empty despite their lower fares.....

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: Mexicana757
Posted 2012-12-05 20:29:14 and read 3492 times.

Quoting enilria (Reply 56):
I also think ORD is doable as a focus city for them.

I think VX should have built up ORD before NK decided to open a focus city here. Its going to be kind of tough to build up a focus city with one gate. Not much space at ORD for them.

I wonder if they would be better off by flying to MDW and making a focus city there. You are competing against one carrier with a hub( sorry focus city) instead of two at ORD. FL has been now eliminated by WN at MDW. Plus there is gate space for them at MDW for now, that is if WN doesn't take over all of it.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: NWADTWE16
Posted 2012-12-05 22:40:56 and read 3406 times.

Yeah VX fought hard for the ORD situation they have now so they mustve thought it would be better for business. Most business travelers except for WN die-hards dont like MDW as its so far south of Downtown. Personally with the L train either is fine for me but when your car service is how you get around 40mins vs 20mins makes all the difference i guess. As i pointed out earlier they do need to shuffle the timing of their ORD flights a bit better and that should help them. NK is just playing with ORD just like a few other markets. Starting random routes, having them sell out some days and be wide open others then dropping them. The DTWORDDTW experiment they just ended comes to mind.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: Mexicana757
Posted 2012-12-05 23:17:16 and read 3370 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 68):
Most business travelers except for WN die-hards dont like MDW as its so far south of Downtown.

MDW is closer to downtown than ORD. Probably what VX is going for is the traveler in the Northwest, and Northern Burbs and businesses around that area.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2012-12-06 06:49:29 and read 3265 times.

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 67):
I wonder if they would be better off by flying to MDW and making a focus city there. You are competing against one carrier with a hub( sorry focus city) instead of two at ORD. FL has been now eliminated by WN at MDW. Plus there is gate space for them at MDW for now, that is if WN doesn't take over all of it.

However, there are more hotel choices by ORD. Since VX targets the leisure traveler, it'd make more sense to fly into the bigger airport with more hotel choices nearby as leisure travelers consider airline and hotel together in a total cost of trip or vacation. While MDW is closer to downtown, it isn't significant enough. The pax that is willing to spend over $200/ a night for a downtown room likely wouldn't mind paying a little more in cab fare via ORD. It's not like DCA to downtown DC vs. BWI or IAD to downtown DC, where the latter is significantly inferior.

[Edited 2012-12-06 06:59:00]

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: FreshSide3
Posted 2012-12-06 06:55:41 and read 3263 times.

Quoting jamake1 (Reply 1):
I have thought that AUS from the westcoast could be a natural market for VX.

There's not enough SEA-AUS.........both cities are computer and music industry capitals and have a lot of traffic from those industries.........AS has one flight but it's full all the time....

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 47):
Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 46):SFO-TPA or SAN-TPA? I'm surprised neither have been tried before by any airline.TZ did try SFO-PIE in the early 2000's. Did not go well....
Quoting enilria (Reply 56):
I also think ORD is doable as a focus city for them.

ORD-PIE would be a natural. Seems like not enough service in the Chicago market to TPA, and service at PIE from anywhere is minimal.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: enilria
Posted 2012-12-06 06:58:40 and read 3258 times.

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 67):
I wonder if they would be better off by flying to MDW and making a focus city there.
Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 67):
Quoting enilria (Reply 56):
I also think ORD is doable as a focus city for them.

I think VX should have built up ORD before NK decided to open a focus city here.

VX's brand has to be at ORD. They want business travelers.

If you mean NK took gates then perhaps that is true, but NK doesn't really compete with VX at all.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 68):
Yeah VX fought hard for the ORD situation they have now so they mustve thought it would be better for business.

That could be true. If they can't make ORD work they are pretty doomed. IAD hasn't worked too well either it appears.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2012-12-06 08:37:19 and read 3216 times.

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 71):
ORD-PIE would be a natural. Seems like not enough service in the Chicago market to TPA, and service at PIE from anywhere is minimal

Im going to disagree with this one. Like I said before, VX is more like a boutique airline. As such, they need more boutique routes. I don't know if PIE is a boutique route.. When I say boutique routes, I'm thinking more of the W Hotel, Intercontinental Hotel, JW Marriott, Ritz Carlton type clientel.. I could see boutique destinations like EYW, AUS, Eagle/Vail, Islip (Fire Island), Chicago, New York, Miami, LAX, SFO, SAN, BDA, NAS, SEA, CHS, AVL, MSY, etc.. places where people go for conferences or exclusive get-aways that will take the higher fares and the higher service.. and I don't mean 6x daily.. I mean 1-2 daily from select destinations.. but that's just how I felt when I flew VX.. like it was meants for somethign special but was being used for something more.. mediocre..

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: FreshSide3
Posted 2012-12-06 10:25:02 and read 3147 times.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 73):
I could see boutique destinations like EYW,

Key West is indeed really underserved, and it's a route that most people don't think of flying into. But avoiding the drive from MIA is a strong selling point for those willing to pay extra for the convenience.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2012-12-06 12:15:14 and read 3088 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 63):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 62):
Why would they make a 2nd effort when the first one failed miserably? YYZ airport's very high costs were another factor. Also can't ignore AC's huge frequent flyer customer base.

Failed MISERABLY eh? show us the miserable stats.. it didnt work at the time but...

Giving up so soon after starting service is a good indication that the results were much worse than expected.

   This is like B6 at ATL. They might return, but not to LAX (or SFO) at first. First they will have to establish service to a higher yielding mrakt.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 65):
basically neither you nor I know the details so lets just agree that you dont know enough to decide they SHOULD NOT try it again...

VX doesn't have enough cash to retry a route that didn't meet numbers. Could it work *after* VX establishes a brand presence in YYZ? Sure. But only after a flight to a more profitable market (JFK, IAD, or even DFW).

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 66):
"We hope to return to YYZ (Toronto) at some point, but in the smaller Toronto-West Coast markets we were not able to stimulate demand as quickly as we would have liked."

Thank you for the quote.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: SANFan
Posted 2012-12-06 17:40:49 and read 2945 times.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 41):
VX, for example, could come in and do a 1x BDL-LAX/SFO...
Quoting boeing71234567 (Reply 36):
I could see SFO/LAX - BDL 1x daily work.

Accoring to another thread, it looks like another carrier may have read part of your suggestions...
JetBlue Adding 38 Workers @ BDL (by afitch7881 Dec 6 2012 in Civil Aviation)
Looks like Virgin might again be late to the party...?

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 73):
I could see boutique destinations like EYW
Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 74):
Key West is indeed really underserved, and it's a route that most people don't think of flying into. But avoiding the drive from MIA is a strong selling point for those willing to pay extra for the convenience.

Seriously, you folks are proposing nonstop EYW-LA/SF service? Oooooo-kay.

bb

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: FreshSide3
Posted 2012-12-06 18:01:10 and read 2930 times.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 76):
Seriously, you folks are proposing nonstop EYW-LA/SF service? Oooooo-kay.

No, maybe JFK or ORD, perhaps.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 76):
Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 41):VX, for example, could come in and do a 1x BDL-LAX/SFO... Quoting boeing71234567 (Reply 36):I could see SFO/LAX - BDL 1x daily work.

UA used to have SFO-BDL....the load factor was always low....don't think it will be any different now.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: Polot
Posted 2012-12-06 18:07:45 and read 2934 times.

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 77):
No, maybe JFK or ORD, perhaps.

That depends on how VX has their A319s equipped. Remember EYW's runway is less than 5000' feet long. DL has to use the 73Gs (which they bought with short field operations in mind) for their LGA flight and even then passengers are restricted to one checked bag for weight reasons. I don't really see EYW-JFK/ORD working out that well, it is too much of a stretch from EYW for VX.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: SANFan
Posted 2012-12-07 10:20:34 and read 2711 times.

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 77):
No, maybe JFK or ORD, perhaps.
Quoting Polot (Reply 78):
That depends on how VX has their A319s equipped.

Before this discussion gets more serious, keep in mind that, as mentioned, VX does not do anyplace other than LA and SF. (Yes, I know they do one JFK-LAS r/t and once a week/seasonal JFK-PSP. Big whoop...)

If ever Virgin starts connecting the dots even a little bit, this idea could perhaps be re-visited. (And it doesn't seem the least bit likely that will happen.)

bb

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: FreshSide3
Posted 2012-12-07 22:03:58 and read 2564 times.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 61):
On my last visit to London many years ago. It was apparent early on many Brits seem to like country music. I wonder if BNA-LHR might work three days a week either in or outside of an alliance.

While on the subject of BNA, perhaps someone(though not Virgin obviously) should add a trip from YYC. There's a big country music fan base there, too.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 63):
Toronto is a HUGE market and probably has one of the largest Corporate hubs in all of North America between Toronto proper and Missassauga. Plenty of people and contracts could be had. Not to mention AC has a bad reputation with more than many. Its been discussed before why it didnt work and at the right time it should be tried again. Im assuming also that their new alliance with Singapore could deliver tourists wanting to get to Niagara Falls onto that route. We all know thats a very popular tourist attraction for Asian visitors.

This also can explain why the travel agencies in India buy big blocks of tickets to BUF for tour packages.

Quoting Polot (Reply 78):
That depends on how VX has their A319s equipped. Remember EYW's runway is less than 5000' feet long. DL has to use the 73Gs (which they bought with short field operations in mind) for their LGA flight and even then passengers are restricted to one checked bag for weight reasons. I don't really see EYW-JFK/ORD working out that well, it is too much of a stretch from EYW for VX.

Was not aware that the runway was that short....but it makes sense.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: anrec80
Posted 2012-12-08 22:08:46 and read 2353 times.

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 80):

While on the subject of BNA, perhaps someone(though not Virgin obviously) should add a trip from YYC. There's a big country music fan base there, too.

The problem with country music fans and performers is that those are close don't have much $$ to pay premium for great service.

I though would like them in YVR. Yes, there is plenty of UA and AC service between YVR and SFO/LAX, but there is also plenty of high-tech and gaming industry in Vancouver. Also, VX can try going after some of CX traffic on YVR-JFK route.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2012-12-08 22:31:22 and read 2318 times.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 63):
Failed MISERABLY eh? show us the miserable stats.. it didnt work at the time but...
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 65):
basically neither you nor I know the details so lets just agree that you dont know enough to decide they SHOULD NOT try it again...

You don't take criticism well, do you?

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: olddominion727
Posted 2012-12-08 22:40:18 and read 2313 times.

SJC-ATL, SJC-BOS, SJC-PHL, SJC-YVR, SFO-ANC, ANC-JFK, SJC-IAD, SFO-TPA, SFO-MSY, SJC-AUS, SFO-COS, LAX-LIR, LAX-SJO, LAX-BOG, SJC-SJD, SFO-PHX, PHX-SJD, BOS-SJD, JFK-SJU, JFK-SDQ, JFK-SJD, PHL-SJD, LAX-MBJ, LAX-CZM, LAX-BZE

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: Flaps
Posted 2012-12-09 15:37:55 and read 2100 times.

As long as everyone is fantasizing:

DFW-PIT 2x daily 319
IAH/PIT 2x daily 319

Although not fitting with the west coast centrism of much of their network, both of these routes are growing rapidly with high high yielding energy traffic and are currently cash cows for AA and UA although WN has begin to edge in with HOU-PIT. The higher yield potential of that growing energy traffic would fit their target demographics quite well.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: southwest737500
Posted 2012-12-09 16:14:01 and read 2044 times.

SFO-CLT 3X
LAX-SFO 2X
DFW-CLT 2X

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: HiFlyerAS
Posted 2012-12-09 17:02:33 and read 1998 times.

Amazingly, this thread is still alive....as is VX. All this speculation is fun but they are in no position to be adding new stations or routes....it ain't gonna happen. They have to stick to what's working, drop what isn't and retrench a bit. Word is that pilots are starting to bail on them as well...not a good sign.

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: airliner371
Posted 2012-12-09 17:55:09 and read 1921 times.

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 86):

You have it all right!

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 86):
Word is that pilots are starting to bail on them as well...not a good sign.

Not good at all but to be expected.

[Edited 2012-12-09 17:55:24]

Topic: RE: Routes That Would Work Well For VX
Username: flyguy89
Posted 2012-12-09 20:08:47 and read 1851 times.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 81):
Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 80):

While on the subject of BNA, perhaps someone(though not Virgin obviously) should add a trip from YYC. There's a big country music fan base there, too.

The problem with country music fans and performers is that those are close don't have much $$ to pay premium for great service.

Not only that, but it's also an illogical proposition that just because some city has a lot of country music fans that that translates into demand for flights to Nashville. The more correct way to look at it is the fact that Nashville has very strong ties to the music and recording industries, which is why there's such strong demand on the BNA-LAX route in comparison to other nearby cities, both Nashville and Los Angeles are huge centers in the recording industry.


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