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Topic: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: mark8762
Posted 2012-12-03 15:39:17 and read 7280 times.

I just read this article about the FAA certifying Paine Field for scheduled service. It goes on to say Allegiant wants to fly 20 flights per day? I question that, but makes for some interesting speculation.

http://mynorthwest.com/11/2141894/FA...oks-Paine-Field-commercial-flights

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: dlramp4life
Posted 2012-12-03 15:46:33 and read 7255 times.

Quoting mark8762 (Thread starter):

What the f*** did I just read?
Where would G4 fly to that would warrent them to have 20 flights a day  
That author needs to check his facts.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-03 15:46:46 and read 7252 times.

Quoting mark8762 (Thread starter):
I just read this article about the FAA certifying Paine Field for scheduled service. It goes on to say Allegiant wants to fly 20 flights per day? I question that, but makes for some interesting speculation.

G4 has wanted to fly out of PAE for years, and at one time AS opposed the application (not sure if they still do). This is just one of the final steps in the approval process that G4 started at least 3 years ago.

As for cities, I could see LAS, AZA, and HNL for sure, plus maybe OAK, SAN, and LAX (if they can get the LAX gate issues resolved).

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: BoeEngr
Posted 2012-12-03 15:54:08 and read 7206 times.

According to KOMO, Allegiant is looking for four flights per week.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/181767441.html

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2012-12-03 15:56:05 and read 7188 times.

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 3):

According to KOMO, Allegiant is looking for four flights per week.

I'm willing to bet two to LAS and two to AZA to start.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: dlramp4life
Posted 2012-12-03 15:57:32 and read 7189 times.

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 3):

sounds more realistic.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):

Does PAE have an air terminal?
Also if G4 opened up PAE, how would BLI be affected on the AZA and/or HNL route?

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-12-03 16:03:31 and read 7136 times.

Quoting mark8762 (Thread starter):
Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant

You need to research better. Paine Field is NOT in Seattle, let alone King County. It is in Everett and that is in Snohomish County. Just sayin'.....

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-12-03 16:04:22 and read 7129 times.

Not to be too picky, but PAE is not in Seattle. It's in Everett about 30 miles north of Seattle. I've always thought that AS or QX starting a few flights from PAE would be great. There's a large catchment area there and it can very congested freeway traffic to get from the north end to SEA, which is south of Seattle.

I'd consider leaving work someday and flying QX/AS PAE-PDX-SJC for example, rather than driving or taking transportation all the way down to SEA.

Didn't QX withdraw their application to serve PAE?

Many A.nets probably know this, but for the benefit of those not familiar with the area, PAE is the airport adjacent to the Boeing-Everett factory. It also serves a few major maintenance and modification facilities, so obviously the runways can handle anything QX or G4 could throw at it. BLI is still another 70 miles north of PAE.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: SANFan
Posted 2012-12-03 16:28:14 and read 7043 times.

And I wouldn't be too surprised if Spirit is paying very close attention to the goings-on at PAE as well... (In fact, NK would make more sense to me than G4 at that airport.)

  

bb

[Edited 2012-12-03 16:29:34]

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-12-03 16:38:55 and read 6998 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Didn't QX withdraw their application to serve PAE?

Yes, they did...in addition to BFI (By AS). The Port of Seattle does not want competition in the Seattle Metro area, which includes (as they say) PAE and BFI. So the Port has a monopoly, IIRC.

I doubt that PAE will be successful in getting regular service at all. They are gonna have to deal with the Port first.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: boeing773ER
Posted 2012-12-03 16:40:43 and read 6989 times.

I think the residents of surrounding towns need to stop complaining about the supposed "noise pollution" It is one of those things we will have to live with in this century. I believe G4 is heavily committed to getting into Paine Field, and is not going to stop trying until they start flying there. I'm sure people knew about PAE when they built/bought their homes in the area considering the airport has been open since 1936.

I live in the flight path of another small airport with G4 service, and I don't notice any of this supposed "noise pollution" that the residents would be complaining about. Also, US has a daily flight from CLT with A319 that arrives shortly after 11 PM and I don't have a problem with the supposed noise. I rarely hear anything from that.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: Hamlet69
Posted 2012-12-03 16:41:28 and read 6989 times.

Quoting mark8762 (Thread starter):
It goes on to say Allegiant wants to fly 20 flights per day?
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 1):
What the f*** did I just read?
Where would G4 fly to that would warrent them to have 20 flights a day
That author needs to check his facts.

Indeed he does. He really screwed the pooch on that one. G4's application states that they want to start with 4 flights per week, and if everything goes well, in 5 years have that slowly increase to 20. That's 20 per WEEK, not per day!

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
There's a large catchment area there and it can very congested freeway traffic to get from the north end to SEA, which is south of Seattle.

  

I hate that drive. Coming back North is even worse, especially at the I-90 interchange (seriously, even in the 1950's, did no one think it was a bad idea to build a freeway where 4 lanes get cut down to 2, right in the middle of downtown?!?!).


Regards,

Hamlet69

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: BlueBus
Posted 2012-12-03 16:45:08 and read 6964 times.

This is about time. I wonder what Boeing thinks about this whole deal.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: hatbutton
Posted 2012-12-03 16:49:13 and read 6945 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):
G4 has wanted to fly out of PAE for years, and at one time AS opposed the application (not sure if they still do)

Opposed it? When? AS asked that they be allowed to fly out of PAE too if G4 was granted access. Not opposed it.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
I'd consider leaving work someday and flying QX/AS PAE-PDX-SJC for example, rather than driving or taking transportation all the way down to SEA.

AS would fly a few flights a day to PDX and GEG QX if they are granted approval.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 5):
Does PAE have an air terminal?

I don't believe there is one, no. They'd have to put up a modular one.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: Hamlet69
Posted 2012-12-03 16:50:40 and read 6937 times.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 10):
I'm sure people knew about PAE when they built/bought their homes in the area considering the airport has been open since 1936.

  

I never ended up having the time, but I always really wanted to go to one of the community meetings during the comment period, and ask all those residents who oppose passenger service what their ages are. IMO, only the residents @ 68 and over would be worth listening to. Everyone else would have moved-in/purchased their property AFTER Boeing moved in. In other words, they D*#% well knew what they were getting into. . .

(I'd also point out the the airport is owned by SNOHOMISH COUNTY, not the city of Mukilteo. So if passenger flights bring a positive economic benefit to the entire county, then that's all that needs be decided.)

Regards,

Hamlet69

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-12-03 16:53:34 and read 6927 times.

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 12):
I wonder what Boeing thinks about this whole deal.

Its not Boeing that is the problem. Boeing has no say, I don't think, nor do they care. It is the Port of Seattle that is the problem along with the FAA.

Also, IIRC, the FAA threatened to withhold federal money from PAE (there was a thread about it a couple years ago) if they did not allow G4 or somebody else, I don't remember, to start flights at that airport. Someone correct me if I am wrong....

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: Hamlet69
Posted 2012-12-03 16:55:21 and read 6914 times.

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 12):
I wonder what Boeing thinks about this whole deal.

Boeing actually weighed in on the matter during the Evironmental Review process. Afterall, I doubt anyone in the area would have really pursued it very far if it was going to piss off your largest employer. Boeing stated that any proposed passenger service at PAE would have NO impact on their operations.

Regards,

Hamlet69

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: Hamlet69
Posted 2012-12-03 17:02:36 and read 6878 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
It is the Port of Seattle that is the problem along

The P.o.S. might have a problem with it, but they also have no say in it, either. PAE is owned and operated by SnoCo, not POS. Sure, they might have joined the NIMBY's in publically opposing it (can't remember if they ever did or not, I just remember the very vocal NIMBY group), but that's about all they can/could do about it.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Also, IIRC, the FAA threatened to withhold federal money from PAE (there was a thread about it a couple years ago) if they did not allow G4 or somebody else, I don't remember, to start flights at that airport. Someone correct me if I am wrong....

Nope, you're spot on. I don't know if the FAA ever actually threatened to withhold money, but when the process first started, they did make it clear that, should the applications be approved and the council still denied G4/QX/etc. from operating from PAE, then the FAA would be well within their legal right to withhold that federal assistance money, which is only granted based on PAE being a public airport.

Regards,

Hamlet69

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-03 19:24:57 and read 6660 times.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):
G4 has wanted to fly out of PAE for years, and at one time AS opposed the application (not sure if they still do).

I'm sure AS still opposes...it's no good for them to have a much lower cost carrier operating out of a much lower cost airport right in their backyard.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 5):
Does PAE have an air terminal?

Not really. There is a decent sized FBO but nothing that would even remotely qualify as a terminal.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 5):
Also if G4 opened up PAE, how would BLI be affected on the AZA and/or HNL route?

Not much...BLI is far more about serving Vancouver traffic than Seattle.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 10):
I think the residents of surrounding towns need to stop complaining about the supposed "noise pollution"

Most of those residents moved in when the only jet traffic out of PAE was Boeing, which is low frequency, only in the day (except under unusual circumstances), and the city/county were all jumping up and down to swear there'd be no commercial traffic out of PAE. It's fair to say they should not have expected an Allegiant-type carrier.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 10):
I'm sure people knew about PAE when they built/bought their homes in the area considering the airport has been open since 1936.

It wasn't a large jet airport until the 70's, and then only Boeing production, which is low frequency and only flies in the day.

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 12):
This is about time. I wonder what Boeing thinks about this whole deal.

I doubt they care.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 14):
Everyone else would have moved-in/purchased their property AFTER Boeing moved in.

Boeing isn't the big noise source at the times of day people care about.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-12-03 21:41:00 and read 6463 times.

I always thought a PDX-based regional that could feed DL's Pacific hub would have been great, and a key route could have been PDX-PAE. That train left the station so I guess the primary multiple frequency driver would be AS/QX, with Q400 service to GEG and PDX, and possibly SFO. AS could conceivably do PAE-LAX/LAS/PHX but probably would prefer to feed their own flights from SEA/PDX.

I hope they change their mind and add service. There are many people between SEA and PAE, and if you draw a 30 mile circle around PAE you'd see a big potential market.

I agree that NK could be an option, and therefore F9 PAE-DEN, but G4 is the likely beneficiary.

A previous thread on the subject from 2009:

Paine Field Close To Agreement With Horizon (by FATFlyer Apr 2 2009 in Civil Aviation)

-Dave

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: StudeDave
Posted 2012-12-03 22:41:03 and read 6353 times.

I'm not gonna waste my time with the link 'cuz it posts here have already raised the 'BS' flag.

What I will say is that news stories I have seen for the last several days have talked about how the FAA has said as many as 23 flights per day would not be any more of an impact on day to day then what is there at PAE now. Also mentioned is how Alaska (and Horizon) were onboard at one time, but they don't seem to be now- unless G4 sets up shop.

So as I see it- it seems to be a wait and see sort of deal as to who will serve my old hometown field.
I have been known to be wrong, though...




StudeDave

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: 707lvr
Posted 2012-12-04 00:04:14 and read 6257 times.

The only NIMBY's who might have a case, or believe they do, would be people who moved under the flight paths after Paine was an Air Force Base and before Boeing came in. Older folks survived F-102's which were far louder than anything which could be heard there today. Seattle-area folks (fewer all the time, sadly) are fairly contemptuous of people who complain about airplane noise.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: BoeEngr
Posted 2012-12-04 06:45:01 and read 6076 times.

As a resident of Mukilteo, I say bring it. I would love to be able to fly out of PAE (come on, Horizon). The travel benefits would, for me and my family, far outweigh the noise issues.

As for the noise, I'm not one to care, though I know I don't represent everyone. I'm still the geek who, when I hear an airplane, rushes to my window or deck to see what it is...

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2012-12-04 07:37:41 and read 6006 times.

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 22):
As a resident of Mukilteo, I say bring it. I would love to be able to fly out of PAE (come on, Horizon). The travel benefits would, for me and my family, far outweigh the noise issues.

As for the noise, I'm not one to care, though I know I don't represent everyone. I'm still the geek who, when I hear an airplane, rushes to my window or deck to see what it is...

Yep, I think any of us who participate in A.net can say the same thing. I work on a certain program in a certain building at the bottom of Harbour Heights Blvd in Mukilteo. Frequently, when I'm driving on the Speedway or at that shopping area with the QFC near the end of PAE's runway, a 747-8 or 787 will be arriving or departing. I'll still run outside or look up while driving to watch it - just like a little kid might do.

With the Boeing airplanes and jet ferry flights to BF Goodrich that already regularly use PAE, I fail to see how a few quiet QX Q400s would be a noise problem for nearby residents.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: charlib52
Posted 2012-12-04 07:40:50 and read 5993 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
It wasn't a large jet airport until the 70's, and then only Boeing production, which is low frequency and only flies in the day.

Actually in the 50s-60's Paine Air Force Base had jet interceptors, but I think I know what you meant - large jet airliners. Here's a wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paine_Air_Force_Base

So Paine has had a lot of activity for a very long time. Undoubtedly things are much better now - can you imagine the sound those F-106's must have put out...

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-04 12:11:36 and read 4939 times.

If in fact commercial service does start at PAE it will only be a matter of time until Allegiant is not the only operator. Anybody that shows up and provides service to the "southland" (LA, PHX, LAS, SD etc) will have no problem filling the planes. I'm guessing 25% or more of the people now flying south from SEA would jump at the chance to make the same flight from PAE.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: seachaz
Posted 2012-12-04 13:31:49 and read 4495 times.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 10):

I think the residents of surrounding towns need to stop complaining about the supposed "noise pollution" It is one of those things we will have to live with in this century.

Couldn't agree more but sounds like this is being fought mostly by Mukilteo which has fairly wealthy residents (and some nice homes with nice views) - they more or less promised to entangle any proposal for scheduled airline service in red tape which is why its taken the FAA so long to release its decision (which as of today still hasn't been announced). Something on the order of 2000 pages worth of comments had to be evaluated/responded to which is far more then was anticipated from what it sounds like.

Personally I'm for some sort of regular service at Paine, as others have stated getting to/from Seatac is a real hassle if you live north of Seattle. As far as a terminal, nothing now but shouldn't be too hard to create something temporary near the tower short term. Long term they could reconfigure the space near the tower or move to the west side.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: wnflyguy
Posted 2012-12-04 13:40:42 and read 4489 times.

I wouldn't be surprised to see NK or WN jumping in on PAE service also once flights are approved.
It's no secret that WN is not happy with the High cost of SEA.
PAE could turn into another pissing match like BFI was.
Which could have PAE become the LGB of Seattle area with service allowed but with a flight cap and curfew.
I could see WN with 5 flts total and service to OAK,DEN and LAS.
wnfg 

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: Scottsea
Posted 2012-12-04 13:45:34 and read 4472 times.

From http://www.komonews.com/news/local/F...vice-at-Paine-Field-182074771.html

"EVERETT, Wash. -- The Federal Aviation Administration on Tuesday said it found "no significant impact" during its final environmental assessment of the proposal to allow commercial flights at Paine Field.

The FAA's finding paves the way for commercial air service at the county-owned airport; however, the final decision will be made by the Snohomish County Council.

If the plan moves forward, Allegiant Air reportedly wants to schedule four commercial flights each week Paine Field with plans to increase service in the future.

If anyone opposes the FAA's findings, the proposal could end up in court."

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: seachaz
Posted 2012-12-04 14:12:05 and read 4313 times.

Quoting Scottsea (Reply 28):
If anyone opposes the FAA's findings, the proposal could end up in court.

I'm sure these guys will: Save Our Communities

The lead item on the page currently claims commercial and manufacturing traffic can't co-exist on one runway:
"Just like San Diego, Paine Field's single main runway could accommodate a lot of airline service over time. Do we really want to crowd out an economic power-house like Boeing with traffic like this? How would Boeing test and launch new aircraft in these conditions? Sea-Tac was built for this. Paine Field was built to support aerospace manufacturing. The two functions differ significantly and shouldn't be mixed together."

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-04 14:59:27 and read 4043 times.

Quoting seachaz (Reply 29):
Quoting Scottsea (Reply 28):If anyone opposes the FAA's findings, the proposal could end up in court.
I'm sure these guys will: Save Our Communities

The lead item on the page currently claims commercial and manufacturing traffic can't co-exist on one runway:
"Just like San Diego, Paine Field's single main runway could accommodate a lot of airline service over time. Do we really want to crowd out an economic power-house like Boeing with traffic like this? How would Boeing test and launch new aircraft in these conditions? Sea-Tac was built for this. Paine Field was built to support aerospace manufacturing. The two functions differ significantly and shouldn't be mixed together."

Having spent half my life operating out of PAE a couple of days a week, I can say their statement couldn't be farther off the mark. For the most part Boeing doesn't do experimental flight test or training out of PAE and if they flew all of their productions flights including all their 737's thru PAE that would work out to about 5 or 6 flights a day. A fair amount of commercial traffic would probably be of benefit by forcing improvements to the approaches (lower minimums) and the snow removal cababilty (for the few days it snows).

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: dlramp4life
Posted 2012-12-04 15:07:08 and read 4013 times.

Quoting seachaz (Reply 29):
I'm sure these guys will: Save Our Communities

I love how they compare PAE to SAN and use a picture from BOS


I could see AS having a big success with either the OO CR7 or 737-700 to western gateways

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: SANFan
Posted 2012-12-04 15:36:25 and read 3839 times.

I can't see WN being interested in PAE. BFI was a much different situation with its location not that far from either downtown Seattle or from SEA/TAC. Paine is neither. If WN -- and it's a huge IF -- were interested in another airport in the northwest corner of the country, I'm sure they would waltz into BLI and fight for the Canadian traffic along with everyone else.

But NK has still not landed in the Seattle area at all and given the high cost of SEA/TAC I could certainly see them liking the idea of setting up shop with 4 or 5 daily flights out of Paine to the usual NK destinations such as AZA, SAN, DFW and LAS. In fact, I would bet a buck that they have NOT come into the area yet because they are waiting to see what happens with the PAE situation...

G4 intrigues me a bit as to why they would want to self-compete with BLI except that maybe they think they would get more Seattle-based travelers at PAE who don't currently want to make the drive all the way to Bellingham?

bb

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-04 15:57:48 and read 3731 times.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 32):
I can't see WN being interested in PAE. BFI was a much different situation with its location not that far from either downtown Seattle or from SEA/TAC. Paine is neither. If WN -- and it's a huge IF -- were interested in another airport in the northwest corner of the country, I'm sure they would waltz into BLI and fight for the Canadian traffic along with everyone else.

Why go to Bellingham, if you're flying out of PAE they'll come to you. WN doesn't need the connections SEA/TAC provides or the high cost of operations. BFI would be a more viable option but the Port of Seattle isn't going to compete with itself. Also, from anywhere slightly north of the center of Seattle and Bellevue its a lot easier to get to PAE especially before 9AM or after 2PM on weekdays.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: rgreenftm
Posted 2012-12-04 16:06:45 and read 3712 times.

AS apparently made a statement to the effect that if their competitors start flying out of PAE, that they would respond with both Q400 and 737 flights.

http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...ng-paine-field-commercial-service/

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: F9animal
Posted 2012-12-04 16:15:55 and read 3688 times.

So excited to see G4 will be coming closer to SEA! Finally! I am really happy to get some great fares to LAS.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-04 17:06:53 and read 3623 times.

Quoting rgreenftm (Reply 34):
AS apparently made a statement to the effect that if their competitors start flying out of PAE, that they would respond with both Q400 and 737 flights.

http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...vice/

Alaska's VP Planning doesn't sound to happy--actually he sounds scared. His comments apply more to people visiting the area than those of us living here that occasionally need a break in a sunnier climate. Except for tourists and a few people that live in condo's downtown nobody will be taking the light rail to the airport anytime soon and if I live here the rental car facility isn't of any value to me. The terminal is nice but I'd rather be on a flight on my way than hanging out there. The minute somebody starts operations from PAE to the "sun" they will have to compete or lose a lot of business in that market.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: seachaz
Posted 2012-12-04 17:24:32 and read 3567 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 36):
Alaska's VP Planning doesn't sound to happy

This is their home turf of course he's not happy. Having to run operations out of two airports serving the same customer base isn't cost effective nor is letting your competitor steal your customers. I'm also curious how much of the capital improvements they are paying for on the N Satellite renovation at Seatac - might now better spent on PAE facilities.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: StudeDave
Posted 2012-12-04 19:07:44 and read 3470 times.

Quoting seachaz (Reply 29):
"Paine Field was built to support aerospace manufacturing."

Now that's a good line. Too bad it's not very true.

Those 'Save Our Community' guys must be using the same spin machine that is trying to prevent the coal terminal up here in Whatcom County. Their website is full of a bunch of BS about trains and coal!!!




StudeDave

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: HiFlyerAS
Posted 2012-12-04 19:48:19 and read 3423 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 36):
Alaska's VP Planning doesn't sound to happy--actually he sounds scared.

He doesn't sound scared....he sounds annoyed. Starting flights out of PAE is a PAEN in the ass. It's easy for some outfit like G4 that comes and goes into airports at the drop of a hat. AS has no choice but to respond...just like they did in BLI. But just how many people are we talking that will fly out of PAE and to where? LAS? HNL? What are the terminal facilities? Parking? Rental cars available? Lots to consider...and SeaTac has the infrastructure in place. I'm tempted to say ignore PAE but you don't want to just roll over when others invade your turf.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-04 21:18:48 and read 3336 times.

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 39):
What are the terminal facilities? Parking? Rental cars available? Lots to consider...

If you build it, they will come.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-12-04 21:42:20 and read 3308 times.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 35):
So excited to see G4 will be coming closer to SEA! Finally! I am really happy to get some great fares to LAS.

You gotta be kidding me. The downside of flying G4 anywhere is that they don't operate to one single destination daily. That is a turn off to me. If I have an emergency and need to get back at moment's notice, I am SOL. I would have to wait until the next flight back to where I came from, which could be 2-3 days out at the most. To me, that is bad business.

G4 does not operate a single flight daily, AFAIK. LAS or AZA-Fort Collins is not daily.

This is why I will not do business with G4.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-04 22:10:41 and read 3266 times.

Allegiant is just the opening shot, no body wants to fly Allegiant (except my in-laws), it's Southwest, Alaska and Continental (I mean United). It doesn't matter how many runways SEA has, it gets to be more of a pain every year to get to and thru the airport for a large percentage of the people in the Greater Seattle area--it is not a good experience. I may not have all the departures to chose from at PAE compared to SEA but the trip will be a lot nicer experience. LA has 5, I think we can support 2.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: rgreenftm
Posted 2012-12-04 23:11:56 and read 3214 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 42):
LA has 5, I think we can support 2.

LA also obviously has a much larger catchment than SEA. Where are the additional passengers going to come from to fill two sets of flights to CA or PHX or LAS? Likely operating costs out of PAE would be lower, which in theory should mean lower prices from PAE - cannibalizing those competing flights at SEA.

I don't have a strong preference one way or another - maybe leaning slightly towards wanting the PAE flights, but Snohomish County would be wise to try to price fees similar to SEA in an effort to discourage growth at PAE.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-12-05 05:06:18 and read 3122 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 42):
LA has 5, I think we can support 2.

Have you been to LA lately? There is a reason why LA has 5 airports, the population is a heck of a lot bigger than Seattle is. Your comparison is apples and oranges, really.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-05 07:46:24 and read 3030 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 44):
Have you been to LA lately? There is a reason why LA has 5 airports, the population is a heck of a lot bigger than Seattle is. Your comparison is apples and oranges, really.

I agree if your're talking about today, but you need to look 15, 20, 30 years in the future or back. In 1970 the greater LA population was about 10 million and they had 5 airports of varying sizes--today the greater Seattle population is 3.5 million and we have just 1. With the Seattle area population still increasing it's time start looking for another airport.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-05 08:01:07 and read 3021 times.

Quoting StudeDave (Reply 38):
Quoting seachaz (Reply 29):
"Paine Field was built to support aerospace manufacturing."

Now that's a good line. Too bad it's not very true.

It's pretty true...Paine Field was heavily modified and expanded to support Boeing. Without aerospace manufacturing, it would be just another former Air Force base-turned GA airport.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: FATFlyer
Posted 2012-12-05 09:38:07 and read 2939 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 41):
G4 does not operate a single flight daily, AFAIK. LAS or AZA-Fort Collins is not daily.

Although many routes are only 2 or 3 days per week, G4 also has routes that are daily or 6 days/week.

BLI-LAS is one route I can remember off the top of my head that has flights every day of the week (some days are only a single flight on the route, other days 2X or 3X).

Other routes are operated daily or 6 days/week as demand warrants. For example, SCK-LAS increases to 6 days/week in March (currently only 4 days/week). Some of those days SCK-LAS sees multiple flights.

G4 will operate whatever frequency and days they can profitably fly (with the planes at close to 85-90% LF).

I would not be surprised to see future G4 Paine service grow to 6 or 7 days per week based on the potential market area.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: seachaz
Posted 2012-12-05 11:38:01 and read 2870 times.

Several articles out today with more specifics:

"Horizon Air and Allegiant Air plan to begin providing service between the airport and three cities -- Portland, Spokane and Las Vegas. Horizon was approved to operate Bombardier Q400 Dash 8s out of the airport, while Allegiant was approved to fly the MD83 aircraft."
http://www.king5.com/news/cities/eve...veretts-Paine-Field-182082601.html

"In the run-up to the FAA's final decision, the county planned a two-gate, 30,000-square-foot terminal for the airport, but has vowed not to spend county money on it. Any agreement with airlines would include a terminal that would pay for itself with revenue, the county says."
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019829613_painefield05m.html

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-12-05 11:49:10 and read 2842 times.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 47):
I would not be surprised to see future G4 Paine service grow to 6 or 7 days per week based on the potential market area.

Were I Allegiant, I would certainly low-ball my expectations rather than have an uproar preclude me from entering the market at all. Once in, it'll be pretty easy to gradually add service, which I can't imagine that they'd say no to if they are making money.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-12-05 15:38:18 and read 2727 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 45):
but you need to look 15, 20, 30 years in the future or back.

No, we don't. We need to be looking what's in front of us, present day.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 45):
With the Seattle area population still increasing it's time start looking for another airport.

Your opinion. Sea-Tac isn't busting at the seams yet. If you're so worried about the commute, look at DEN. The airport is in BFE with grass. It's like 20 mies from downtown Denver. People complain, yeah but they still take flights at DEN anyway.

We are crying over spilt milk, it seems.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: allegiantflyer
Posted 2012-12-05 15:45:53 and read 2710 times.

Does G4 have any routes that are daily?

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: FATFlyer
Posted 2012-12-05 16:06:43 and read 2689 times.

Quoting allegiantflyer (Reply 51):
Does G4 have any routes that are daily?

As I said just a few posts up.....

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 47):
Although many routes are only 2 or 3 days per week, G4 also has routes that are daily or 6 days/week.

BLI-LAS is one route I can remember off the top of my head that has flights every day of the week (some days are only a single flight on the route, other days 2X or 3X).

Other routes are operated daily or 6 days/week as demand warrants. For example, SCK-LAS increases to 6 days/week in March (currently only 4 days/week). Some of those days SCK-LAS sees multiple flights.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: mark8762
Posted 2012-12-06 05:58:16 and read 2485 times.

Quoting allegiantflyer (Reply 51):
Does G4 have any routes that are daily?

There are two other examples I can think of off the top of my head. They are IWA/AZA to LAS and OAK. The route to OAK is to trade out aircraft on a just about every other day basis to get them back into a maintenance base as OAK hasvery minimal capabilities when it comes to maintenance.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: StudeDave
Posted 2012-12-06 10:34:13 and read 2399 times.

Quoting allegiantflyer (Reply 51):
Does G4 have any routes that are daily?

BLI-LAS (and the reverse) is many times daily.







StudeDave

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-12-06 10:40:29 and read 2391 times.

Quoting StudeDave (Reply 54):
BLI-LAS (and the reverse) is many times daily.

I thought maybe that was a tad excessive so I checked their website. For random dates in February, they had 2-4 flights per day each way. I'd say that, for Allegiant, and for Bellingham, that is in deed many times daily.  

-Dave

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: StudeDave
Posted 2012-12-06 11:58:55 and read 2335 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 55):
I thought maybe that was a tad excessive so I checked their website.

Even though most inbounds to BLI fly over my area everyday-
I will admit to checking their website before I posted.





StudeDave

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: ADent
Posted 2012-12-06 15:27:35 and read 2259 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 50):
If you're so worried about the commute, look at DEN. The airport is in BFE with grass. It's like 20 mies from downtown Denver. People complain, yeah but they still take flights at DEN anyway.

What else are we to do? There aren't any other airports in the metro area with service. Plus DEN has non-stops to LOTS of cities.

BTW it is 24 miles if you drive.

Now if APA opened up and WN set up shop there .......

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2012-12-06 16:52:19 and read 2183 times.

Quoting ADent (Reply 57):
There aren't any other airports in the metro area with service

My parents live in Kitsap County, and it takes an hour and a half to get to SEA. Anyone who lives in Kitsap County hasn't complained about the commute, and neither should you.

Quoting ADent (Reply 57):
BTW it is 24 miles if you drive.

   Shocker. So, I was off by 4 miles. So what.

Again, crying over spilt milk here, it seems.

Quoting ADent (Reply 57):
What else are we to do?

You sound desperate here. Just deal with it like everyone else.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: HiFlyerAS
Posted 2012-12-06 17:05:52 and read 2155 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 44):
Have you been to LA lately? There is a reason why LA has 5 airports, the population is a heck of a lot bigger than Seattle is. Your comparison is apples and oranges, really.

And three of the five airports are underutilized and in the case of one could be considered a failure. ONT built a big, shiny new terminal just as the recession hit. I don't know the number but it's probably at 50% capacity at best. BUR has such a short runway that it's only good for regional/west coast flights. LGB is so restrictive with their landing slots that most airlines have up and left except for B6. Only LAX and SNA could be considered bustling and successful.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: bjorn14
Posted 2012-12-07 04:30:48 and read 2036 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
fail to see how a few quiet QX Q400s would be a noise problem for nearby residents.

G4 is bringing some noisy Mad Dogs or maybe 319s.

Quoting seachaz (Reply 26):
As far as a terminal, nothing now but shouldn't be too hard to create something temporary near the tower short term. Long term they could reconfigure the space near the tower or move to the west side.

Is the County gonna pay for this?

Quoting seachaz (Reply 29):
Do we really want to crowd out an economic power-house like Boeing with traffic like this?

Yeah right that how come Boeing said it would have no effecton their ops. Liars!

Quoting seachaz (Reply 37):
Having to run operations out of two airports

Or is it 3 and don't they do that in the LA Basin?

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-07 05:41:33 and read 1995 times.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 60):
Quoting seachaz (Reply 29):
Do we really want to crowd out an economic power-house like Boeing with traffic like this?

Yeah right that how come Boeing said it would have no effecton their ops. Liars!

Out of Everett, every month Boeing builds ~2 747s, ~1 767s, ~7 777s, and ~5 787s. Each plane needs, on average, about 4 flights before delivery. That implies a flight rate of 4x(2+1+7+5)=60 *per month*, or two flights per day. Add on to that another four flights per day or so of 737s (they do go-arounds and touch-and-goes at PAE), and you're talking a total average Boeing load on the field of about 6-8 flights per day...they won't even notice a low frequency commercial carrier.

Tom.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2012-12-07 07:38:58 and read 1924 times.

Looks like the only people trashing this good news are the NIMBY's, Alaska's VP of planning and the people with "AS" attached to the username--hmmmmm.

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2012-12-07 10:21:23 and read 1860 times.

AirframeAS, why are you being so aggressive about this? You mention people in Kitsap County not complaining. Well, they must have complained a little because they got a new suspension bridge due to congestion.

BFI would be a much more convenient location for a second airport but wouldn't really save people much time. PAE offers a lot of people north of SEA an alternative that will significantly reduce their drive time, reduce congestion on our over crowded roads, and bring some additional jobs to that county.

I understand that you feel differently than he does, but I don't think he's being disrespectful in how he is discussing it here. I like the idea of "what's next" for the Seattle area.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Seattle's Paine Field And Allegiant
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2012-12-07 12:41:27 and read 1790 times.

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 59):
BUR has such a short runway that it's only good for regional/west coast flights.

That's not true; B6 offers service to JFK using an A320. I'd say if they can do BUR-JFK, then BUR is capable of providing service to all major markets on the East Coast, and throughout the lower 48 using A32x's, 737's, and possibly 757s. Most airlines just choose to not operate long-distance flights to BUR. Also, keep in mind that the longest runway at SNA is 100 feet shorter than runway 8 at BUR (which is the one used for landings). IIRC, runway 15, which is 1000 feet longer, is most often used for takeoffs at BUR.


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